I think about this often because I think there's a tendency in Christianity , especially with those in leadership , but I think all of Christianity , that our kids can easily become a trophy to our sanctification , where it's like , well , look at my kid , they're so well read , they've got the Bible versus , they've got , you know , the Westminster Catechism . First five , met , met , memorized , they're serving their blah , blah , blah . And there's this feeling of look , here's a physical representation of my sanctification process . But the reality is that we were talking about pride two episodes ago .
Oscar NavarroIt's so easy to forget about grace because if you do all of the truisms , truism is something that you know , and Apple a day keeps the doctor away . Is it guaranteed ? No , it's a true ism . The intent is for you to live a healthy life in the way that you eat . The scriptures give us true isms for the way we parent , but they are not guarantees . And often I think we look at our children as we forget about grace and that if they grew up and they , you know , all 10 or all three or all four are saved , then we're like , ah , look , i should write a book on parenting . You know I , here's a , here's the trophy to my sanctification . And then when we hear about other people's kids who are not in the faith , we're like , hmm , you know , did they what , where ? how did they school their children ? Oh well , how , what , what ? were they really living authentic Christian lives ? Did they evangelize ? It lacks grace . We forget what you just said , which is that without the faithful work of Christ , none of our kids are going to be saved .
Emeal ZwayneThey say that the third times a charm friends . So , being that the first two times we had him on , we're woefully miserable . We're convinced that today our good friend Patrick Nemmers will help us garner at least one download for today's podcast .
Oscar NavarroBy the way , if you don't know Pat , when he starts making fun of you in that way , that means you're , you're in . That's his lovely Yeah , totally . That's his lovely , okay , totally . I've been making fun of him for years .
Emeal ZwayneHe's been in for a long time . However , friends , i said our audience would go to one download , which would double it , but if Pat recruits all of his and Maryland's billions of children and grandchildren to listen , we will set a record for downloads today , no question about it . Ladies and gentlemen , here with us again is the legendary Nemmers , who , by the way , can't play basketball to save his life .
Pat NemmersOh wow , that was low , that was not .
Emeal ZwayneThat was low . And , by the way , oscar , he has an indoor court . Oh , really , he does , i do . Are you a Hooper ?
Oscar NavarroI am a Hooper . No , easy's not .
Emeal ZwayneWell , easy .
Pat NemmersAnd I played one game of basketball together and I think he he hit one right on my head . And that's where he gets his evidence that I'm not that good of a basketball player . I was a wrestler and wrestlers end up playing end up wrestling when they play basketball .
Ray ComfortIt's just way it goes . Pretty mind , brother , you're still a wrestler .
Pat NemmersYeah , you're still a wrestler for Jesus . You still ballin' Pat . by the way , yeah , on Mondays I do . I've got my right knee has had a number of surgeries and it's just I'm . it's been through , it's told .
Oscar NavarroWell , I really need to come visit you guys because I play and I'd love to hoop on a Monday night with you . That sounds like fun .
Pat NemmersOh man , we've got some stallions on our staff , and one of them I think we're going to talk about today is a tremendous basketball player , john .
Emeal ZwayneOh yeah , we'll have to talk about him . But yeah , friends , we got Pat back , pat
. let me just say the last two episodes we did were a huge blessing to me . I mean , we've been doing this . I think that these are like we're up in the 170s in terms of 200 episodes .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , we're starting to near 200 episodes , but you know we rarely have guests on . Actually , We may start doing that more , or you're one of a few that have come on and you know we do a lot of these . We get encouraged while we do them . But the last two have been special for me , I think , because I know you . I've read your book , obviously , but I've seen your life and I know that what's written in the book matches the life that you live and it just means so much to me . And we we talked about some , some important things , some heavy things , And today we're going to talk about more heavy things , but a great ending to something extremely heavy that you went through .
Pat NemmersAn ending I don't put in the book , by the way .
Emeal ZwayneI leave everybody hanging on that , yeah , so you're going to give us the ending today . I will if you ask me . Yeah , yeah , yeah , we will . So , yeah , pat , we're just so blessed to have you back . Thanks for leaving Iowa , coming all the way out here . Thanks for those of you that have listened to the last two episodes with Pat . You've got to check them out . You're going to be edified , encouraged and built up right How to , how to have humility after humiliation and how to be a person who can strike back when tragedy strikes .
Emeal ZwayneAnd today we're going to talk about taming the rebel , how to respond righteously to rebellious children . And it seems like , more than ever , Pat , people have a lot of stuff to deal with with rebellious children . It seems like the , the , the online age has kind of made the world smaller , has given more examples of rebellion for young people to follow . Not that it wasn't there in the heart before , but we're seeing . We're seeing it manifested all the more . So , yeah , we want to talk about that . And , friends , a lot of this is based on Pat's book that you heard about in the last two episodes retractions , cultivating humility after humiliation And you could get this at Amazon probably the easiest place to get it right , pat , yeah , yeah , check it out there . It's been doing really well . We talked about how Tim Chalice put it on his top and there's only 10 books on that list the top books that he selected for 2022 . What's amazing , is he ?
Oscar Navarroonly read seven books that year .
Emeal ZwaynePat's was not one of them . He just kind of winged it on that that plug . But anyhow , check the book out , and today we're going to get into some of that . But before that , friends , one of your comments . this is from Matteo Allen , Much appreciated . I love listening to you guys while I clean or drive around for my business . You guys have the perfect and different personalities for this . Also , I was completely transformed in how I share my faith almost 20 years ago by Ray . I'm eternally grateful for you , brother . Your example is encouraging . Two other three guys are all right too .
Ray ComfortHe's talking also about Mark Spence not with us today , and we missing great things .
Emeal ZwayneMark was not on the last couple of episodes .
Oscar NavarroBest episodes we ever had , yeah .
Ray ComfortWhere is he , mark ? Where did he go Down to the table , Mark ? Yeah ?
Emeal ZwayneMark went to Michigan to speak at an event out there and we miss him , but he'll be back soon enough . All right , friends , make sure to check out Tough Questions . Apologetics Made Simple . It's a course that we have with Ray , mark and myself . It's five sessions , approximately 25 minutes each , on three DVDs . You get all kinds of good stuff on there . You get a study guide . You get 400 gospel tracks that tackle tough questions , promotional videos , printable bulletin and certain posters . Also , if you don't want to get the DVD version , you can get the MP4 version available through download as well . Don't forget the Living Waters podcast Mug . It's pretty good . We have an study Bible at Living Waters . Ah , rebellious children . Ray has three . One of them is my wife . Oscar has got three children .
Ray ComfortI am the rebellious .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , oscar was a rebel . And , pat , i talked about your billions of children , grandchildren , between you and Marilyn . We heard your story in the last podcast . You are a blended family , we are , you're both . I mean , you're a widower , marilyn was a widow , so how many children and grandchildren between the two of you ?
Pat NemmersSo a family picture of us is sort of a you could use it for where's Waldo Just ? looking for me in the picture now . So I had seven children going into our marriage . She had three , so we have 10 . And we were married in 1997 . So 26 years ago And we now have 37 grandkids , with one on the way . Wow .
Oscar NavarroSo that's a church .
Pat NemmersYeah , we can fill up a pew .
Emeal ZwayneThat's how your church grew . Are the odds that you guys will eventually crack 40 at this ?
Pat Nemmersplace . Well , by that time we might be into grand . We'll see . I'll say it's possible . I don't know if it's probable . We're coming to the end .
Emeal ZwayneI think of the grandchildren . Okay , so oldest and youngest , Name them all .
Pat NemmersYeah , how much time does this pocket ? So the oldest is 17 , almost 18 . And the youngest is just a couple of months old .
Emeal ZwayneWow , so you literally are close to potential great-grandparent . Yeah , we are . Well , i mean hopefully within the next decade .
Pat NemmersYeah , Ray has fought the whole grandfather , great-grandfather .
Ray ComfortAre you getting jealous right now ?
Emeal ZwayneI think he's got a wife to me . What was ?
Ray Comfortthat Remind me . She turned the first baby , julie , around at me and said there's gramps . And I thought I'm not ready for that . I'm just turned whatever I was , i'm not ready for the rock and tear on the veranda , so I tried , super dad and forefather . I've been stuck with grandpa .
Pat NemmersForefather The old-fashioned name grandpa .
Emeal ZwayneWe're Nana and Papa . We're close .
Pat NemmersAh , there you go , There you go . It's a joy . Most of our kids live near us almost all of them , except for we have one that's planted a church out in Illinois . He's about five hours away , Otherwise the whole clan is within a half hour of us . That's pretty cool .
Oscar NavarroI know about kids I'm the only one that's not a grandpa here But my youngest daughter . Last night in our prayers , in her prayer of thankfulness , she goes . Thank you God for a house , because not not everyone have homes they live in And we also recognize that not everyone has ever had in and out .
Pat NemmersOh wow , yeah , That's actually frightening .
Ray ComfortMark Spence is going to enjoy this .
Emeal ZwayneOur daughter had just sent this yesterday . She said yesterday had and saw Noah Spence , who's Mark's son , and asked him where his boat was . He was starstruck when he saw Noah too , like he couldn't believe he was talking to Noah Where your boat , where your boat ? I love it , man , but the joy , huh Pat , that children and grandchildren bring , especially when they're serving the Lord and love God .
Pat NemmersI preached this sermon a few years ago and I put up the family photo one of the most recent at that time , which is sort of overwhelming to everyone when you put it up on a screen . And I want to be careful , i don't want to exploit them too much , but I did it with a purpose . I said this is my family . Some people were clapping . I didn't do it for that intention , i said , and I stopped and I walked toward the screen and stared at it for a little while . I said there are 30 , some individuals in this , 30 , some grandchildren . I said I don't know their futures , i don't know if all of them will become Christians , i don't know what struggles they face . God does . But it was my little intro into what I often call cake box parenting , which is , if you want to make a cake , you could say cake box .
Pat NemmersNot kick box , cake box . If you turn the cake box around , you see the recipe , you grease the pan , you put the eggs and flour in and you turn the oven to 350 , and you mix it all together and you're going to get a cake every time , right Cake box . Parenting is a form of Christianity , it says if I do everything just thus and so , that guarantees my children will come to know Jesus , we certainly hope and pray to that end , do we not ? But last I checked , we are chosen from the foundation of the world . There's this . There .
Pat NemmersOur theology comes into play here . I cannot save my children . I can't save them , i can't sanctify them . I can do everything I can as a parent to live for Jesus and to be a parent , a consistent , albeit imperfect life in the hopes that they'll come to Jesus . And I'm thankful that my children have all laid claim to Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior and almost all of them are living a very full and dedicated Christian life . But I've had some struggles with a couple of them and that might be the lead and I don't want to take anything off of your plate here .
Emeal ZwayneMy way of questions . But let's first talk about that , because I think that a lot of times there is this disconnect between our sentiment about what our children should be and reality in terms of us living in a fallen , broken world and that salvation is of the Lord , like you alluded to . It's not about this , this formula that I love , the cake box analogy you used But it's about being sure to not circumnavigate the process that God often uses to bring our children to repentance . I mean Ray , you've talked about this often the whole say the prayer thing .
Ray ComfortYeah , it's easy to get decisions from children . I'm not boasting here , but if you give me 100 kids in a hall , i could get 99 of them to give their hearts to Jesus within one minute . Just say okay , does anyone tell me how you get to heaven ? Yes , tommy , it gives your heart to Jesus . Okay , who wants to go to heaven ? Raise your hands And there you go . 100 decisions for 99 , because the kid down there isn't listening .
But that's the problem , and it's a lack of understanding what salvation is . Salvation is the law . There must be a knowledge of sin . There must be genuine contrition , god-given repentance , cleanse your hands , your sin is , purify your heart , your double mind , and let your life be turned to mourning and your joy to heaviness . You don't say that to a four , five-year-old kid because they've got no understanding . So no , that was that .
Oscar NavarroSo , it was just a filler , So that was your way of saying Oscar , say something . Yeah , i think about this often because I think there's a tendency in Christianity , especially with those in leadership , but I think all of Christianity that our kids can easily become a trophy to our sanctification , where it's like well , look at my kid , they're so well read , they've got the Bible versus , they've got the Westminster Catechism first five memorized . they're serving , they're blah , blah and there's this feeling of , look , here's a physical representation of my sanctification process . But the reality is that we were talking about pride two episodes ago .
Oscar NavarroIt's so easy to forget about grace because if you do all of the truisms , truism is something that you know an apple a day keeps the doctor away . Is it guaranteed ? No , it's a truism . The intent is for you to live a healthy life in the way that you eat . The scriptures give us truisms for the way we parent , but they are not guarantees . And often I think we look at our children as we forget about grace and that if they grew up and they , you know all 10 or all three or all four are saved , then we're like , ah , look , i should write a book on parenting . You know I , here's the trophy to my sanctification . And then when we hear about other people's kids who are not in the faith , we're like you know . did they where ? how did they school their children ? Oh well , how were they really living authentic Christian lives ? Did they evangelize ? It lacks grace . We forget what you just said , which is that without the faithful work of Christ , none of our kids are going to be saved .
Oscar NavarroWe have to depend wholly and solely on his workmanship .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , and you know , i think a part of that formula that sometimes people will look at is connected to verses that are misunderstood in terms of of their intent And that would be like truisms that we see in the proverbs . You know , bring up a child in the way that he shall go , and even when he'll he's old , he won't depart from it . And so some parents will look and say , well , look , we did everything . And we , you know , we taught in the ways of the Lord . They went to church the day they were born . Literally , we took him to service . You know , we this and that And they're not . Oh , we must have done something wrong . We must have . No , that's a truism , right , and and , and we can parse it out and look at the application of that , But but we have to be careful .
Emeal ZwayneYou know , my favorite book and we've talked about it here before is is the book by Ted Tripp , shepherding a Child's Heart , and in there he talks about shaping influences , and those are the influences provided by parents , like raising them up in the fear and admonition of the Lord , teaching them the word , being godly parents , not living hypocritical lives , so on and so forth , but in the final analysis he touches on something called Godward orientation And that is that particular child and and what's going on in their heart and all the spiritual dynamics connected to that . So so we have to understand that every family is different , every child is different , every circumstance is different And we just have to be careful that we don't just try to rush to get our kids saved . And and , ray , i've mentioned this before on the podcast as well One of the sweet things with Rachel is that , because you held up God's law before your kids , it ended up leading Rachel in particular to Christ that day when she finally realized she couldn't stop being horrible to her brothers .
Ray ComfortWell , she's saving a right , yeah .
Emeal ZwayneBut she came here . she said she like realized I can't love my brothers a way that I know I should . There's some , there's sin inside of me , and that led her to come to you and and Sue , and say I need the Lord . And it brought her to genuine faith . Oscar , are you going to say something I was just going to say ? Ray was like I can't love them either .
Pat NemmersHelp me , lord . I heard a theologian say once it was really impressive to me that no child can be saved unless they understand some aspect of substitution . So you know we talked about Christ died for our sins . To some degree a child must understand that . Now we have to balance that with Jesus' own words in Matthew 18 , unless you become like a child and be converted . And remember he said in Luke's Gospel , let the little children come to me . So there is that sense . I completely agree with what you said . I mean I I've been there and done that , i've been the evangelist in in children's camps where you know I could just say raise your hand . And they're all going to raise their hand . You know , but do they understand substitutionary atonement ? on some level They got to understand that Christ died on behalf of their sins or they'll never be saved .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , yeah , it's very true , and I think a lot of parents on the other side of all of this shortchanged their kids because they underestimate how much they can really understand , how much they can grasp And let me just say , for those of you listening , there are creative ways to teach your children truths , especially at a young age , that can be radically impactful .
Emeal ZwayneYou know , I've shared before with our kids . We did this thing . It was this series called Family Night , Treasure Chest and or Tool Chest , And it had all these ideas of different things you can do . And so one day I told Rachel , before I left , and I got the idea from the book hey , when I'm gone today and the kids misbehave , don't discipline them , Just write down what they did . And when I come home we'll deal with it . And so , of course , I get home in the evening and a list about a mile long hits me . So I walk through the door . She really took note that what I told her to do , And so I set up a courtroom scenario in the living room .
Emeal ZwayneThat evening I put on the bathroom I was a judge , You know , brought at the table for the judge's bench , brought out a meat tenderizer for the gavel , you know , and we brought out the criminals little Julia's Wayne , little Summer's Wayne , And Mama Rachel was the eyewitness who testified to their crimes . And so we had court in our living room , you know . And then the kids were laughing . Hey , this is really fun and cute , you know . And so then I brought the gavel down and I said okay , you know , Julia's Wayne , you pled guilty , or guilty . Summer's Wayne , same thing .
Emeal ZwayneTomorrow , the consequences for your crime are going to be that you have no sweets , no snacks , no desserts , only your breakfast , lunch , dinner and water . At the end of the evening we're going to sit down and we're going to have a delicious dessert and you're going to have to sit there and watch us as we eat it . And suddenly it went from hey to no . You know , they were just just miserable . So then I came from behind the benches the judge's bench , took off the robe and I looked at them . I said kids , as a judge , I had to be just in past sentence , but as your father , tomorrow I'm taking your consequences upon myself . Tomorrow , I get no snacks , sweets , desserts , only breakfast , lunch and dinner . And then we're going to sit down and you guys are going to have that delicious dessert while I sit there and watch you eat it . No , dad , we're the guilty ones , You shouldn't have to bear that . And so I said kids , this is .
Emeal ZwayneAnd then we did it that night , the next day , and they were like sitting there with tear streaming down their face trying to give me their dessert . You know , moves me as I think about it , And so I was able to draw the analogy and I was able to save them kids . This is what the Lord did for us . We violated His law , We broke His commandments . We deserve His wrath and judgment , but then Jesus left the heights of heaven and took our place That substitutionary tome you're talking about and rose again from the dead . And if we repent and place our faith in Him , then we're free . And it was so amazing because my daughter , Julia , who's a school teacher now at a Christian school , she called me recently and said Hey , dad , I'm going to do that with the kids in class .
Emeal ZwayneCan you remind me of some of the detail , and they'll never forget it for the rest of their life . So that's powerful . Yeah , there are ways that we can convey that truth to our kids . That's powerful .
Oscar NavarroOn that note , i'd love to get into that rebellious child that even when you raise them up and God's Word and in His truth and in the church and Pat you get into detail . You had a problem child . I don't know if we want to call that . It sounds kind of rude . but John , yeah , let me just read this excerpt and then I'd love for you as to fill us in and tell the story . So you say in the chapter titled John , when he was little , john had been easy and compliant . He was so quiet He could almost go unnoticed around the house . Like most boys , he loved sports and loved to play . He also had lots of friends . Although his grades in school were never very good , he was not a problem child until within just a short time , he became one .
Tell us that story , john . about a John , pat about John , maybe the squad car moment and then what it looks like to disciple and pray for a kid out of that .
Pat NemmersYeah , well , and he was named after me . My name is Patrick John . His name is John Patrick . So it's your fault . Yeah , so it is my fault . Well , to some degree anyway , and I look back on my years of parenting , and they weren't perfect . I mean , i do have regrets .
Oscar NavarroWhat's the worst thing ?
Pat Nemmersyou did No , i'm joking Well that might take another podcast , but with John , yeah , that's exactly right , that's how I read it , wrote it , that is . And then about the time he was in seventh or eighth grade , he just became very distant . We first noticed it during our family time that easy alluded to . We did fun things too . When they were little they'd reenact stories like David and Goliath . There's a lot of fun things and demonstrative things that they would remember And they go back and remember these family times .
Pat NemmersIn fact , for 20 years , every Sunday night about 9.30 at night , everybody had to be back home , whatever they were throwing to the wind , going out with friends , whatever after church or whatever youth group . They came back at 9.30 , and we all all 12 of us gathered together in our living room And we had to talk . Everybody had to say something , some highlight of the day . It could have been a song that was sung , it could have been an encounter in the foyer , it could have been something they learned in Sunday school and God forbid , it might be something they heard their dad preach . But and it was fun , and we talked about this back and forth and we didn't say now it's your turn , and now it's your turn . We actually said , you know , almost 90 to 100% of the time they all participated , but we made it so that you didn't have to talk if you didn't feel like it .
Pat NemmersAnd we first noticed that John quit talking . He , he just quit saying anything . I can remember one time he did say something . It was so minuscule but I was so excited that he said something that he was , that he got , and actually it was an encounter with a guy . He goes so and so talk to me in the foyer and I just thought that was really cool . Wow . And I said two things were going on . I'm glad for the guy who talked to him . And secondly , where is my son going ? And he's probably about 12 . Okay , and so he just kept getting darker . Choosing his friends were not good friends and we'd have these conversations . Not try to be too rough on him . But and then there , just there was a . There was a perfect storm of situations . Like friends he didn't . There was hardly any godly boys in the school he was going to do . It was a Christian school and it was just a real struggle .
Pat NemmersFast forward , we saw some anger coming out of him and he was just the most compliant , quiet boy . Suddenly he became an angry boy . And then it happened . I'd heard something about it , but I wasn't sure if it was true or not . And one day I looked out in the driveway and a police car pulled up and I thought , wow , a police car is in our driveway . What's this all about ?
Pat NemmersAnd by this time John is now 15 , almost 16 years old . The police car comes out , police man comes into . The policeman comes into our home . He asked if John was around . I asked John to come out of his bedroom , came out of his bedroom and I noticed his knuckles were all red . And he asked if he had gotten into a fight the night before . John just acknowledged right away . He said yeah , he had . Then He said , okay , well , i need you to come down to the police station . And so I drove him down there . I thought that would put the fear of God in him .
Pat NemmersIt was basically a hard slap on the hand with the warning if anything like this happened again , all of what he did in this fight he got into was going to come back on him . Well , two weeks later he did the same thing . Somebody looked at his girlfriend . You know it really wasn't a egregious . But John was very jealous , he was very angry . He punched that man . But this man punched him back And John went on the run . The police were looking for him And he finally showed up . We had to go back to the police station and this time the hardest thing I'd ever had to endure in the moment was to see him get arrested at age 16 , taken away in handcuffs , put in a juvenile detention center for two weeks .
Ray ComfortAnd it was that for that second fight .
Pat NemmersIt was for the second fight , but the first one came . The first one , which was worse , came back into play , storing up right . It was an assault , so it was a federal offense , it was a major , major crime . And so we went through all of the all the stuff trial , i mean . It was very disheartening . My heart was grieved . I actually was ready to submit my resignation And this is in the middle of . We'd planted it . We were in the middle of planting our third church . The church was growing exponentially . Everything from the outside looked like success , success , success .
Pat NemmersI was dying death by a thousand cuts every day because of my son John , and so really , what it came to ? and I was pleading , my wife and I , we were pleading in tears before God for him . But I'll really came to that . This is what it came to . A couple several weeks earlier , we'd had a 26 year old woman die from cancer in our church , very sad , young mother of a couple of kids . And that morning I had read Psalm 63 , verse three , and I was really caught up in the . It says your loving kindness , oh God , is better than life itself . Therefore , my lips will praise you , and I sent that to the widower saying you know , i know you're grieving , i love you , brother . May the loving kindness of God be even better than life itself with the death of your wife . And he took solace . He loved that . And that verse continued to sort of you know , i don't know , just begin to grow on me .
And so now back to John . He's back out of jail . He's out of jail . He's wearing an ankle bracelet because they want to keep their eye on him . Now He has to stay close to home . So it's pretty good . But as time goes by , behavior modification doesn't save anybody . And he's out trying to look to do other things . He's out partying and so far as I know , he had to be back by 11 o'clock . He wasn't .
Pat NemmersIt's Saturday night . I'm preparing to preach 12 o'clock , one o'clock . I'm texting . I'm calling , he's not responding . 2 am still not hearing from him .
Pat NemmersI go to bed . I'm lying in bed , maryland's next to me , my wife , she doesn't know , he's not home and I'm not about to tell her . She's asleep . And I'm pleading with God for the soul of my son , because he'd been warned if he got caught he'd be thrown into adult jail and it wouldn't be the same . And I'm pleading with God , tears coursing down my cheeks , literally , and I'm telling you guys , i didn't hear anything audible , nothing .
Pat NemmersI didn't have a charismatic experience , but I might as well have , because as I lay there in bed pleading with God , it's like God spoke to my heart because , off of that verse , your loving kindness is better , because the word better is a term of comparison . It's better than life itself . Therefore , my lips will praise you And I sense the Lord say you don't trust me . And I literally talk about God . Oh God , i trust you , i trust No , no , you don't . No , i do . No , you don't . You tell everybody else to trust me , but just look at you . You're demonstrating that you don't trust me . And that stopped me . That , just that thought .
Pat NemmersAnd then I sensed again . I'm not saying I heard a voice , i just I sensed the Lord saying to my spirit will you honor me more than the soul of your son ? Hmm , dang , will you love me more than the soul of your son ? And I'm telling you , guys , that broke me , because in that moment I realized , if it's possible , i made an idol out of the soul of my son . I can't save him , i can't even hardly control him at this point , and so I repented , i realized and it had affected my vision of God , my walk with God , and I confessed it right there laying in bed . I said God , i repent , i will love you and honor you , regardless of what you do with my son John , whether you choose to save him or not , i will honor you and forgive me for not doing so . And I'm telling you , men , as God is my witness , i had peace , like I'd just gotten saved . I mean , it just came right over me .
Pat NemmersI fell asleep And John did not even come home that night . In fact , things got worse before they got better . He didn't go to adult jail , but nearly did . But I had something We're talking about parenting right , rebellious children . I had something I didn't have before that night Peace . I had peace . There were still anxious moments , there were still decisions that had to be made , there were still hard words that had to be shared , but he no longer controlled my soul . Wow , he was not an idol anymore And I was freed up . I was totally freed up , and So how was that expressed ?
Ray ComfortWas it expressed in your joy , prayer life ? Thank you , lord , that all things are working together for good . Your hand is upon them .
Pat NemmersAll that And then just not being held captive by the anxiety of what's next , what you know , when's the other shoe gonna fall ? with my son , john , i didn't live in that fear . I had to deal with issues , but I didn't live in that fear any longer And John , i think , seemed to know it . Now I kind of leave everybody hanging in the book , because I said that's for a different story , because after I wrote the book and the book came out , i had people coming back . Whatever happened to John ? I mean , we see he's preaching today , you know . So actually it was buddy .
Oscar NavarroBefore we get that , because I wanna pause and sort of talk about that , that season , that moment where you were fathering a rebellious child . How do you pursue rebellious children with the gospel ? What does love and discipleship , you know , whatever ? what does that look like ? What wisdom and counsel could you give a parent whose kid is in that season of life ? How do they pursue their children with the gospel ?
Pat NemmersWell , the answer to the question from my and I give this counsel quite often now is not to keep preaching the gospel to them . Now , that sounds probably heretical to you , but if your children know the gospel clearly , you don't have to keep declaring it to them every day . In fact , that just drives them farther away . This is where you have to put on love . I mean , we preach this , you know . this is where Grace really does come in .
Pat NemmersSo John's a basketball player . He's a really good . he looks like a wrestler , plays like a basketball , but he's a basketball player And he's a . I gotta hang out with this guy . Yeah , he's a tremendous basketball player And he loved , always loved , basketball . And while we played basketball three , four days a week in those days , and so I made sure that he always was invited because he would come . That was the way I'd connect with him . We didn't have lengthy conversations . In fact , I remember he would come . I still remember this It looked like a demon shirt that he wore Is this the ugliest shirt ? And I remember a guy we were playing with . he'd say to John what do you got the demon shirt on for ?
Pat NemmersAnd they'd ask him and he'd just ignore him , you know . But we played regularly and he would . He looked forward to get that invitation . I looked for opportunities to connect with him . So I , you know , i'm not Billy Graham or even 18 generations close to him , but I did get opportunities to speak in lots of places around the United States and have for many years . That year I told my wife , i said I am committing myself to not go anywhere else . I'll pastor this church and I'm pastoring our boys Cause his older brother , daniel , was not much better than him I referenced that in the book John much worse , he went a lot darker than Daniel .
Pat NemmersBut I used to say people would say , how can we pray for your sons ? I'd say , well , pray that they'll be converted , whatever converted means . It wasn't that I didn't understand biblical conversion , but it was a perfect prayer request because , as it turned out , daniel was a Christian but not living for God . John was not a Christian . Both of them needed to be converted , turned back to the Lord , right , one for salvation , one for restoration . So really it was the perfect prayer request . So , but anyway , that was as that was going on . Where was I talking ?
Oscar Navarroabout John . I asked you how do you disciple , How do you pursue children in that phase ? You mentioned time , basketball .
Pat NemmersHanging out with them , and I didn't take any preaching opportunities And so I dedicated myself to getting with those boys . They would tell you they hated it . Okay , i mean , it wasn't like , oh , goody , goody , here comes dad . If they were watching a television show , i'd just go down and sit with them And I wouldn't judge the show or whatever , i would just talk , and they would tell you that dad wouldn't let us go . I just I wasn't going to let them go , and I learned this , by the way , from my wife Marilyn . I want to give a shout out to my wife here . So what ? in the midst of all this , our oldest son was off to college And these are your youngest boys .
Pat NemmersNo , these are my two youngest , but our oldest is Marilyn's firstborn And I noticed that every morning he would go off to college . He stayed , he lived at home , but he'd drive to college at 40 minutes away , so he'd get up really early in the morning . He's a godly man , he was a godly kid then , but he was just super quiet And probably like his dad , who's with the Lord So . But every morning Marilyn would go out and sit with him at breakfast time And I would . I'd be in the bedroom just next door reading my Bible , which , of course , you know there's a spiritual thing to do in the morning , you know . But I'm listening to my wife talking to our son , her oldest , and hers is the only voice I'm hearing . She's asking about his day , she's interacting , and all I hear from him is yep , uh-huh , no , okay , see ya , bye , love you , that's it . That's in about 20 minute conversation .
Pat NemmersI remember sitting there one day thinking , honey , what are you doing ? He's not even talking back with you , and as soon as that thought came to my mind , i thought that's it , that's it . She has the answer . She was saying , without saying it , i will be in your life . Whether you like it or not . I'm in your life And I realized that's not what I was doing . This would be a mistake I made . I would confess that I let the rope out too far with my boys . I had to come back in And that's what I did . So I spent time with them and in the hopes that we could just repair the relationship . And then God did something spectacular about me or my wife later .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , what do you do ? Well , let me just say real quick , before we go there , You know that is such an undervalued thing time spent with our children And Pat , I like what you said you know about how you're in the next room reading your Bible . And we have to recognize as Christians that there are , in some cases , the wrong time to do the right thing . And what I mean by that is if , as an example , you're employed by an employer and you're at work and you think , well , I gotta read the word . You know I always gotta be in the words .
Emeal ZwayneEvery moment you get a little break , that's probably the most wicked thing you could do at the time , because you're called to live out the word by being what God has called you to be as an employee , And that is faithful , diligent , hardworking . You should shine , you should be the best employee in that entire place , you know . But spending time with our children And I think we have the greatest impediment to that ever in our day and age because of these stupid little things we're holding right here right , I mean , they have all of our attention , all of our focus We can get lost in these rabbit holes , for hours .
Ray ComfortThis is a podcast . What's that ? People don't know what you were talking about . Oh , phones . They thought you were holding your nose , one-eyed demons right here .
Emeal ZwayneThey thought you were holding your nose .
Ray ComfortSo why don't we all make a covenant before us and just burn our phones ? You first , ray , no , you first . I live in the talk of it .
Emeal ZwayneSo but you know that's one of the things I've mentioned before that Rachel said about Ray . He was itinerating and was gone , a lot like regularly flying out almost every weekend . You know speaking places . But she said one of the most powerful things I've ever heard a child of a pastor or an itinerant minister ever say . She said but I never felt like he was gone because when he was home he really made it count . And I mean she has repeated that so many times to different people that her dad made it count . He was out , they were frogging out in the pond , in the forest , they were playing games , and that's so important . Even if we're not doing spiritual things , you're conveying spiritual dynamics by being present and loving them , And those times will naturally come . That's key .
Oscar NavarroListener . For those who don't know , frogging is a comfort tradition where you dress up like a frog and eat flies .
Ray ComfortIt is not . There was a pond about a mile and a half from a forest . We'd go there regularly and take nets and I get up to Manic , manic Manic and catch frogs and we'd sell them at the front gate because these things were like toys that hopped and didn't have batteries , so people would pay money for them . And that's how we paid for our first trip to the US . For the kids was frog finance . Wow , frog funds .
Emeal ZwayneFrog funds . Wow , all right , pat . So we got a few minutes left , about five or so . So now take us into what happened with John .
Pat NemmersSo I alluded to his brother , daniel , who was a Christian but was as far gone as John in many ways , except Daniel would always , whenever he would get caught sinning , he would always weep , he would always repent . John just got darker . So there's the . That one was saved , one wasn't Daniel was Daniel's a lot like me , his personality's a lot like me And he just was sort of the he's the life of the party , wherever he was at . And he was dating the class valedictorian , sharp , sharply , not a Christian , but she was planning , even in high school , to become a doctor or a PA . And they were talking and she said to Daniel so what are you planning on doing in life ? And Daniel said I don't have any plans . And she looked at him and she goes well , that's why I'm dumping you , because I'm not gonna marry a guy who has no plans in his life .
Pat NemmersAnd I'm telling you that sent him into a tailspin . He was working for a guy , he was cleaning a machine and he fell on his knees and repented and turned back to God And asked Christ to forgive him . He would walk with him
again . Daniel went to a house where they were all smoking marijuana And our son , john , was amongst a bunch of guys doing like about a dozen guys , and Daniel walked in , as only Daniel could do , and made the announcement I have given my life back to Jesus Christ . I'm never coming back here again . I love you guys , I love to be able to talk to you guys about this , but you're not gonna see me here . If you wanna follow me , come with me , otherwise I'm not coming back here .
Ray ComfortYou walked into the lion's den .
Pat NemmersAnd walked back out . Yeah , and one by one they were yelling . They were just saying they were vulgarated at Daniel . One guy said I think it's cool , he's standing there for what he believes . That guy became a Christian , batsized and everything . But John was there smoking reefer And he looked at . He told me later . He said Dad , i knew then Daniel was the real deal , and so wasn't long thereafter John went to a kegger at some by some lake and got into another fight . What's a kegger ? A kegger where they drink a lot of beer out of a kegger . Okay , a kegger .
Ray ComfortSo Innocent child . Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , frogger , frogger , you go ahead and catch frog breast or drink and beer .
Pat NemmersBut anyway . So he got into a fight with a national wrestling champion Bad guy to choose a fight with And that guy broke John's shoulder . Whoa Flipped him and broke his shoulder . He called his brother , daniel , and said come and get me . So Daniel came and got me his shoulders in a sling . Daniel's taken him to the doctor .
Pat NemmersAnd Daniel looked at him and said look at your life , look at you . What are you doing ? Oh , and I know that sounds almost anticlimactic in some ways , because John said , right there , i knew I am a total loser . I have got to do something about everything . This gets back to what you do with a rebellious child .
Pat NemmersAll the truth that he knew just came flooding back in And he called me up and said dad , i wanna go to a certain camp , a Bible camp , which kids at his age didn't ever wanna go to a camp . He's like 17 , almost 18 now , and he almost planned his salvation , i think . Right then he placed his faith in Jesus . He went to the camp , he went forward during the message and he has never looked back . And I tell you , i have seen hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people come to know Jesus as savior and watch their lives radically changed . He's top five , wow , top five . And today , and just about just two weeks ago , our church laid hands on John Nemmers and commissioned him as the next church planner in the Engage Network , and we couldn't be more joyful , praise God . And how old is John now ? Pat John , he'll be 29 years old next month .
Emeal ZwayneThat is just amazing , and I've had the privilege to spend some time with John and a lot of your children back when we went to Iowa , and what a delight it is to see what the Lord has done . And , friends , for those of you listening again , we hope that you've caught from all that we've been talking about that , the thing to do to deal with a rebellious child righteously , because , remember , to deal with sin sinfully is sinful . There's an unrighteous way to stand up for righteousness , and so what you need to do is as Ray talks about often . You don't be a hypocrite . That's one of the worst things you can do for your children . That will embitter them unlike anything else , but to be present , to be present to follow Marilyn's example , which Pat ended up following , and to be there . And your kids may not respond favorably , especially if you're not accustomed or they're not accustomed to you spending a lot of time with them . At first they might bristle , they might act weird , they might not talk , but you must persist and love Be present .
Pat NemmersCan I add a quick addendum Please ? We've already talked about dealing with rebellious kids . I would say to the parents out there don't make them an idol . Too many kids are doing it , too many parents are doing that . Don't make it . I actually unwittingly did that with John , psalm 63 , verse three . I'm not an advocate of tattoos . Okay , in fact I've joked with preachers If you don't like tattoos , don't tell your kids because they'll get all tatted up . And so John has a tattoo on his chest . He didn't know about the story with the widower I gave Psalm 63 , verse 32 . He didn't know about my encounter with God in bed over Psalm 63 , verse three . On his very own , he fell in love with Psalm 63 , verse three and he has that reference tattooed on his chest . Your loving kindness , oh God , is better than life itself . Therefore , my lips will praise you . I like this guy more and more Amen .
Emeal ZwayneWell , that's just so wonderful . Pat And brother , thank you for just giving of your time for coming on here and friends . All of this and much , much more is in retractions , pat's book retractions Cultivating Humility After Humiliation . Again , the name is Pat Nemmers , n-e-m-m-e-r-s . Amazon . You'll get this thing delivered to you in like 30 seconds .
Emeal ZwayneThese days They don't waste any time anymore , You'll get it before you order it , maybe even , but I'm telling you this is a life changer , pat . You know , after I read the book , i gave you input and I gave you constructive criticism . But you know , i also gave you praise , and that praise was not flattery , it was sincerity , and I told you this book is gonna be , it's gonna go big and it's gonna impact a lot of people . I have no doubt . As I've mentioned , this is one of the top podcasts in the world . It thrilled me to think we can tell people about it , because there's just no other way to put it . It is radically powerful and it's full of transformative truth . And so , friends , please get this book .
Emeal ZwayneRetractions Cultivating Humility After Humiliation . And , pat , i love you , brother , love you too . The Lord was so kind on that day when he brought our lives together , knit our hearts together And , honestly , you and Marilyn are some of mine and Rachel's favorite people on the planet And we're so excited to continue the journey of joy with you guys . Thank you , brother . Thanks for letting me be with you Our pleasure .
Ray ComfortYeah , this is gonna be difficult . Do you go crazy , or Yeah ?
Emeal Zwayneyeah , yeah , i'll go crazy . So remember , friends , to check out tough questions . Don't forget Living Waters Podcast Mug and Evidence Bible . Don't forget to give us your thoughts , your suggestions , your criticisms of Oscar's shirt today and all that other good stuff at podcastallivingwaterscom . Remember to give us ratings . Keep us up there . Hey , i am a bit disappointed because we had been with five stars forever , as long as we've been on . It's almost unheard of that . We've stayed at five stars . We're at 4.9 .
Pat NemmersOh my .
Emeal ZwayneSo that means what We saw that once way back when . That means you guys gotta get on there and give us a rating five stars so we could stay at five , because that'll get it far and wide . Thanks for joining us , friends . We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters Podcast . We're still yes , still . We have no idea what we're doing . Music .