Catholic Theology and Personal Anecdotes

Oscar Navarro 1:05

Yeah , you know , what's interesting about the whole aspect of the veneration of Mary is that it's relatively recent throughout Catholic theology . As a matter of fact , all of our understanding , all of Catholics' understanding , of Mary is within the last 150 years . Within the last 150 years , they develop immaculate conception , which before that , thomas Aquinas denied . Within the last 150 years , we started to believe , the Catholics started to believe that her body was taken up to heaven , that she was the Queen of heaven , that she was sinless . That's a new theology that they believe , within the last 150 years , the perpetual virginity of Mary . All of these things were not a thing until 150 years or so ago .

Ray Comfort 1:47

Does the average Catholic understand all that ?

Oscar Navarro 1:49

No , i don't think that . I think that most Catholics think that whatever doctrine the Papacy have brought about has always been , and they've just kind of come along and reaffirmed it . But actually there's a lot of new Catholic dogmas that are younger than the United States of America . I mean , this is stuff that the early Christians simply didn't believe .

Emeal Zwayne 2:15

Little does Mark Spence , the descendant of Joseph Smith , know that I now have among his children one of my converts . I got a wonderful text with a very , very waterlogged child who was in Alaska , who did a cold plunge .

Ray Comfort 2:39

No , in Alaska . Did you know that ?

Mark Spence 2:42

He sent me a picture of or a text saying that . He said that and I said well , did Danny do it ? He said no , danny wouldn't do it .

Emeal Zwayne 2:49

No , danny said he was in the van cleaning it . Pence , he didn't do it . He didn't do it . I know I'm kind of jealous . It's one of your kids , it's a convert .

Ray Comfort 2:59

So that's the right way to tischa heart .

Emeal Zwayne 3:01

Yeah , yeah , Ethan sent me a text from Alaska . Our boys were in Alaska , right , Mark ?

Mark Spence 3:07

They rented a van to sleep in . You see how much you do not like someone when you're sleeping in a van for a week .

Emeal Zwayne 3:14

I know . So he wrote to me and it was a picture of him and he said cold plunge , inspired by you . I said , yes , wasn't it seriously amazing and torturous at the same time ? He said it was truly magical . I can't stop smiling . I feel so good . We need to get my dad to join this cult . Mark , join our cult , please .

Ray Comfort 3:33

It really feels good when you get out .

Mark Spence 3:37

I will try it in the pool in the summertime .

Emeal Zwayne 3:40

You need to go , in the winter , from the pool to the hot tub , from the hot tub to the pool . You got to do it , mark .

Oscar Navarro 3:45

I was in Colorado recently and we went whitewater rafting . The first thing I did was like how cold is the river ? And they said it's about 42 and I jumped in .

Emeal Zwayne 3:54

You did not .

Oscar Navarro 3:55

Oh , you've been doing cold plunge , I have been yeah , It didn't feel , because normally when we cold plunge it's under 40 . You've gone under 40 . Yeah , I mean not much .

Ray Comfort 4:04

So what was it ? It was a hot day or cold It was probably around 70 , 75 .

Emeal Zwayne 4:08

So it would have been a shock . How did it feel , Oscar ?

Oscar Navarro 4:10

It felt good . Honestly , it felt good because I didn't have to worry about getting cold afterwards .

Ray Comfort 4:15

You know what I mean .

Oscar Navarro 4:15

Because , I already felt all the cold .

Emeal Zwayne 4:18

Yeah , the only problem is when I asked Ethan how long he went in for , he said 10 seconds . It was just his toe . No , he said I dunked my head , stayed in for like three seconds and ran out and then got back in and swam for like 10 seconds . I was expecting like three . It's supposed to be like dunk your head is a whole nother level I've never done that .

Emeal Zwayne 4:37

Yeah , that's pretty insane , yeah . So anyway , that's beautiful , wonderful and cute and adorable , but , mark , you played . I can't figure out yet whether or not you played a dirty trick on me or whether Ethan played a dirty trick on you , because you sent me a picture of what you said was my beloved son in a hammock between two people .

Mark Spence 4:57

Yeah , no , i didn't really thought it was your son . So , ethan , just sent you the picture or did he send me the picture and he said , yeah , he's doing it . And I went oh well , he must be referring to Danny , because we've been going back and forth . back and forth . Yeah , And apparently it was not Danny . It was just some random stranger inside the airport who had a hammock there in Juneau , Alaska . We didn't want to sit in the seats . So he put up a hammock between people .

Oscar Navarro 5:19

That's genius , actually It really , is It looked ? really comfortable . I'm honestly thinking about packing a hammock the next time I travel . Yeah , i see my .

Emeal Zwayne 5:27

So I'm looking at this . I'm like how can this be my son Danny ? That's so not a Danny to do . I thought how intelligent . He was Yeah , and then you lost all your respect . I thought it wasn't him , no , but I thought this is not Danny . But I was shocked . I'm like , okay , wow , danny , okay , i wasn't going to kick him out of the house .

Emeal Zwayne 5:43

He said he better get comfortable with that , because he's going to be sleeping in one forever . Oh man Outside , yeah , oh man , yeah , you guys like hammocks , by the way . What is the ?

Mark Spence 5:54

fascination with the hammocks .

Ray Comfort 5:56

I don't like them . Why right They keep moving ? You can't get them to go still , But that's what's wonderful , No it's annoying .

Emeal Zwayne 6:02

It makes you fall asleep when you sway .

Mark Spence 6:05

We have two hammocks in our backyard in between two palm trees , and absolutely love it .

Ray Comfort 6:10

Bring a little pillow and a little blinky headphones , so you're talking about a big , nice , comfortable hammock , one of those little ones you just fall out of all the time .

Mark Spence 6:17

It actually has a mosquito net , so it does . It keeps the mosquitoes going . It's a classy one .

Emeal Zwayne 6:21

Is it one , Mark , that makes you look like a human taco , where you just sink into it and disappear ? We have both . I like those ones that are like they have the wood on the top . Okay , yeah , we don't have that .

Mark Spence 6:31

No , those are nice . You know , I slept in a hammock for about a year when I slept with my parents .

Ray Comfort 6:35

That's a long time to be asleep . I slept outside .

Oscar Navarro 6:37

Yeah , that's a coma , mark .

Mark Spence 6:39

You didn't sleep in the hammock , you had a coma , and what would wake me up inside the hammock where the sprinkler is going off at 5 am ? No way .

Emeal Zwayne 6:45

Well , you did this by choice or because you smelled your parents' business , because my parents had a really beautiful view with their house . Yeah , it was a nice house . I remember that .

Mark Spence 6:52

And I would sleep out inside the hammock and the sprinklers would wake me up and I'd be able to watch the sunrise . That's crazy . Was the water cold ?

Emeal Zwayne 6:59

Yeah , it was a cold punch . It was the first cold punch . It was cold sprinkle . You know what blows my mind ?

Ray Comfort 7:04

I'm sure you guys have seen them .

Emeal Zwayne 7:06

Those guys that like rock climb and then they'll do a hammock on that like sleep actually in the middle of some crazy huge rock climb .

Mark Spence 7:14

Wow .

Oscar Navarro 7:14

Yeah yeah , yeah , that's insanity . They just like tie it to the side of their tail To sleep off the side of a rock . Can you imagine rolling over in the middle of the night ?

Emeal Zwayne 7:24

Imagine an earthquake . You're hanging out there Having a nightmare .

Oscar Navarro 7:27

Having a night terror and you stand up . Yeah , you get to me , man . Is he sleepwalking The rock ?

Emeal Zwayne 7:31

Sleep falling . Oh , that's crazy . Anyway , friends , let's get down to badness . We have a comment . This is from Steve and all Steve and all I don't know , Steve and AI , something like that . Love , love , love , Bella . I have been listening to this podcast for a while now and really fell in love with you all in the episode of women submitting to their husbands . I never thought I would enjoy listening to four men discuss a woman being submissive , but it was done beautifully . These last three episodes of Jonah , the crucifixion and Peter have been the most amazing sermons I've ever heard . It has really given me a new understanding of God's amazing grace and has made me stand in awe of God like never before .

Emeal Zwayne 8:15

I could listen to all of these episodes over and over . Thank you for all you all do , man .

Ray Comfort 8:21

Is he got the right podcast . That's what I'm thinking .

Emeal Zwayne 8:24

Thank you so much . love , love , love , That's so incredible .

Oscar Navarro 8:28

Love , love , love .

Emeal Zwayne 8:28

Yeah , we love , love , love this comment And , honestly , i'm regularly . You guys see it crack once in a while . I'm regularly holding back the tears when I read these because they're encouraging . Yeah , because I know how useless you guys are . And what's so fun , god , that's as this . I feel good for you . All right , friends , this podcast is brought to you by How to Make Sure God . Here's Your Prayers . Ray , are you always in prayer ? Yes , Ray is right in the middle of this R-A-Y-E-R , are we doing like vocal emphasis Yes , p-r-a-y-e-r .

Ray Comfort 9:08

Yeah , that gets the message across . I'm always in prayer . You take Ray out of prayer and all you've got is poo .

Emeal Zwayne 9:14

Ray , tell me anything that's in this book , Quick . what's in this book , Ray ?

Ray Comfort 9:20

Well , it really doesn't matter if God hears your prayers or not , until you're hanging over a thousand foot cliff by your teeth or you're upside down at 20,000 feet in severe turbulence . That's when you need an off-God-hear-your-prey-us , so it's vital .

Emeal Zwayne 9:31

Wow , yeah , amen , yeah , make sure to check it out , friends , along with the evidence . study Bible .

Oscar Navarro 9:37

And where can they find these two items Along with wait ?

Emeal Zwayne 9:40

there's one more thing .

Oscar Navarro 9:41

Oh , there's more .

Emeal Zwayne 9:42

The Living Waters Mug , mug , mug , caps . Friends , let me just say this We've been really encouraged by how quickly these flew .

Ray Comfort 9:52

They were ordered fast People throwing them at each other .

Emeal Zwayne 9:56

That's probably what's happening , but there was someone , i think , that ordered six or something of them . So that's the idea , friends , he was very thirsty .

Oscar Navarro 10:03

Here's what we're going to do , though We're going to have a little phone with these mugs . We've decided So we did , we sold out and we ordered another batch , which means there's going to be 300 total grand total , including the ones that we already sold out of plus the new ones . So two , 150 orders I think that's how that number works , something like that . After those get sold out . That's it . You will not get this mug again . We're going to try to make them kind of fun , like seasonal . So after that we'll redesign it new look , new mug and then we'll put those up somehow in some way , and so it'll be fun for those who want to collect them and trade them with your friends . I don't know if you want to trade her a mug .

Ray Comfort 10:40

We'll also have specials for them by 200 to get 5% discount . Yes , yes , definitely .

Oscar Navarro 10:44

But it'll be fun . It'll be a fun way where , if you meet another listener who's got a mug , you'll have a different one than them , depending on when you start listening .

Emeal Zwayne 10:54

So you can even try to mug someone with the mug .

Mark Spence 10:57

Have you ever seen the left-handed mug designed for people that are left-handed , like this one right here ? No , okay , yeah , i guess you can use that . You can use that by whole , if you hold it with your right hand and it'll dribble out and get you all wet .

Ray Comfort 11:12

Oh , that's cool .

Mark Spence 11:13

So it'll force you to use your left hand or just , i guess , turn the mug all the way around , so you don't get all wet .

Ray Comfort 11:17

Can you speak in truth ?

Mark Spence 11:19

No , i'm serious , it's on the side of a store that said lefties have rights to . I think it was the name of the store .

Emeal Zwayne 11:24

Yeah , oh , that's good Preach , yeah . So anyway , friends , make sure to check them out , yeah , and look , and if you go on the website and we're out , you can back order them , so you can do that . So , all right , friends . So today we're talking about Mother Mary , the most misunderstood woman in history . I cannot for the life of me . I'm trying because I wanted to sing , because I love to sing , because I have a great voice . Mother Mary comes to me .

Ray Comfort 11:51

No , that's awful , That is awful Wow .

Mark Spence 11:54

Don't worry , we will not get a copyright strike with that .

Ray Comfort 11:56

That's right , i won't get a copyright claim . There'll be no one . They'll be recognized . I'll see if that's not recognized . I can't . I see it . Did I watch them ? I think they let it be . Let it be .

Emeal Zwayne 12:07

That's where it is . Let it be . Let it be Mother Mary . Oh , am I close ?

Ray Comfort 12:15

I think you know you're the wrong key or something . If you sum that down the beach the tide wouldn't come in , It was just awful . So yeah , and it's not even about Mother Mary . His mother's name was Mary and she died , And so that's not about .

Emeal Zwayne 12:27

Spoiler alert . But don't you think most people , Ray , think that's about Mary ?

Ray Comfort 12:33

Well , easy , try it again .

Oscar Navarro 12:35

No , no , he doesn't have to .

Emeal Zwayne 12:36

Let it be .

Oscar Navarro 12:36

No let it be , it's already off . Wait , no , i'm a good singer .

Mark Spence 12:40

You are American .

Emeal Zwayne 12:41

Idol . I know that song . Let it be No still off , oh Mother Mary No way off .

Oscar Navarro 12:50

That's getting worse , Ray what are you doing ?

Emeal Zwayne 12:52

He's trying to get it .

Oscar Navarro 12:53

Oh , anyways , okay , can we legally ?

Emeal Zwayne 12:53

play it . I'm going to give it a try See if you watch the door . Well , this is definitely See if any police come in and they'll see you . I'm going to give it a try See if you watch the door and see if any police , come in as we .

Oscar Navarro 13:05

This is definitely a parody of the song I've tried myself . In times of trouble , mother Mary comes to me .

Mark Spence 13:14

Speaking words of wisdom .

Ray Comfort 13:18

Let it be . Oh boy , now that's fair use , because we're going to talk about it , yeah , yeah .

Oscar Navarro 13:22

I don't like that guy And it's a parody .

Emeal Zwayne 13:24

Yes , it's a parody of law Man , my bevel on beat This is getting high there . You guys remember that guy . What's his name ? Neville , something Long bottom . What was that ? Neville shoot . Yeah , remember Neville . He sang this , that one song , with a really high voice , anyway what are you talking about ?

Ray Comfort 13:42

The Bee Gees ?

Emeal Zwayne 13:43

Now the Bee Gees are a wonder .

Oscar Navarro 13:44

Yeah , Seriously those voices , you don't have to .

Emeal Zwayne 13:47

Oh wait .

Oscar Navarro 13:48

Why do you do that ? Wait , wait , wait , wait .

Emeal Zwayne 13:50

This is a famous song Oh my brain . It's from that movie , my brain , brain .

Ray Comfort 13:59

She loves you .

Emeal Zwayne 14:01

She loves you Yeah .

Mark Spence 14:03

Like staying alive .

Emeal Zwayne 14:04

Stay alive Stay alive . Those guys are crazy , yeah . So , anyway , we're talking today about Mary , are we ? Yeah , we are . And right , mary is so radically misunderstood

Misconceptions About Catholicism and Mary

Emeal Zwayne 14:20

. We love Catholic people very , very much . In fact , we did a video on Catholicism recently .

Ray Comfort 14:26

That statement means nothing . We used it in the video and I thought Catholics are going to be so excited to see so many coming to faith in the video . And they weren't . They were just mad . They just said we're your Catholic haters . And we don't hate Catholics , We love them . That's why we speak to them .

Emeal Zwayne 14:41

Yeah , absolutely Yeah , we love Catholic people very , very much . And it's interesting because , honestly , when I see a video made by Catholics or things that are distributed by Catholics , that are apologetics material , it doesn't mean anything , it doesn't make me angry , it doesn't make me frustrated to agitate it . I say , oh , they must really care , they sincerely believe this and they must really care . They're in error , they're misled in what they're saying , but they must care . I don't get hostile and angry , and that happened well , with our video , as much as we try to express love . I used to be Catholic . Mark was a Catholic , scotty was Catholic . Scotty was Catholic . The Pope was Catholic . Ray's aunt was Catholic . Yes , she did . She did . Who hung out with a one-legged priest We've talked about that before on a motorbike , did ?

Ray Comfort 15:27

they go skydiving . Did we talk about it before ?

Emeal Zwayne 15:30

Yes , we did . We did Mike Catholic , can we ?

Ray Comfort 15:32

skydiving too . Yes , she went skydiving with a one-legged Catholic priest on a motorbike .

Emeal Zwayne 15:37

On a motorbike ? No , that didn't die on a motorbike .

Oscar Navarro 15:39

Eddie , roman Catholic , that's right , i do calf raises .

Emeal Zwayne 15:43

Oh , that's like that . You're the one who would be most likely your Mexican . That's racist . Yeah , no religious .

Oscar Navarro 15:49

Yeah , I didn't grow up in a religious home , but I do have quite a bit of family members who are Catholic , and I grew up in a heavily populated Hispanic community . One of the things I wanted to mention is , even if you're not a devout Catholic but you come from a Catholic family , there's just this great reverence for Mary . I was explaining to Eddie earlier that when I grew up , we knew that gangsters I don't know if you guys know this or not , but gangsters get Mary tattooed onto their backs . The reason why you'll see so many gangsters with tattoos of Mary on their backs and then they don't wear shirts is because it's considered like another gang member won't stab you or shoot you in the back because they won't shoot through your Mary tattoo .

Emeal Zwayne 16:28

Wait , are you serious ?

Oscar Navarro 16:29

Yeah , that's like a real thing .

Ray Comfort 16:30

Well , I've got an idea . Why don't they get it on the front as well ?

Oscar Navarro 16:33

Yeah , so you see someone come and you just turn around .

Emeal Zwayne 16:37

No way , oscar , i've never heard such a thing .

Ray Comfort 16:40

So where can you get these tattoos ?

Emeal Zwayne 16:43

Well , I would do Mary tattoos all over my neck .

Ray Comfort 16:46

I wouldn't be kind of cheaper and easier just to get a Mary T-shirt ?

Oscar Navarro 16:50

Sure , i should have thought of that .

Emeal Zwayne 16:53

Right , yeah . So this is a big deal , though , because idolatry is no joke . We talked about it on the last podcast . It's extremely serious , and Mary is radically misunderstood , because a lot of dear Catholics believe that Mary would have wanted the attention that she's given , and that could not be further from the truth , because Mary understood the gospel . Mary understood her need for Jesus . In fact , in her Magnificat , she cried out to him as she cried out to God as her Savior .

Mark Spence 17:28

My God , my Savior , luke 1. , 47 .

Emeal Zwayne 17:30

Yeah , and so that's really important . But , guys , let's just jump into it now , and , though , talk about the flip side of that

Discussion on Mary and the Saints

Emeal Zwayne 17:38

. The pendulum always swings , and I think that sometimes , among evangelicals , there's almost an irreverence when talking about Mary and the saints of old . We are saints of today , all believers in Christ are referred to as saints in scripture , but I'm sure you all understand what I'm talking about when I say that the saints , those that are the notables among us , they are to be respected , as all people are to be respected . But don't you think , though , oscar , that the pendulum does swing , and then we do become irreverent where it's almost like oh , you are Mary , this and that , and we almost become disrespectful ?

Oscar Navarro 18:16

Yeah , absolutely One . It doesn't help in finding common ground as you talk to people who may have a misunderstanding of who Mary is . But also I think it's important to recognize kind of getting to your point , izzy that there's value in us as Christians looking back through history and honoring those that came before us . Because , in no different way , if you found out that your great grandfather served as some amazing veteran in the war , you would identify with the ancestors of old and you would have great honor and respect for them and what they've accomplished , and that might even inform the way you live your life today .

Oscar Navarro 18:51

Well , listen , when you are a born again Christian , you are inheritors of God's kingdom . We are all sons and daughters of a living God who rules and reigns over all creation , and what that means is that we all enter into a brotherhood , a sisterhood , a family of believers that have existed for 2,000 years , which means you have faith ancestors . Let's call them Not ancestral worship faith ancestors , but ancestors that we can look back on and have great respect and honor for the things that they accomplished , for the ways that they believed , and we can identify with the amazing things that they did , and whether that's Mary or Augustine or anybody else . I think there's value in identifying the believers that came before us and paved a way for our faith .

Mark Spence 19:42

Do you have any believers , oscar in the lineage , the history great grandfathers , or are you the first one that you know of that became a Christian ? I believe I'm the first one . Yeah , seriously .

Oscar Navarro 19:54

Yeah , i'm pretty sure I mean my grandma . Well , my grandma was a believer . She got saved , i guess . No , i'm not . My grandma got saved actually . So she was the first one , i was the second one . Oh , got it . Somebody shared the gospel with her in her late 30s . So she didn't raise my mom or anybody else as Christian . She kind of held it to herself . But she would quietly pray for all of us . But yeah , other than her , i'm the first one . So our kids are the first kids to grow up in a Christian home where they're prayed over , prayed for and invited to participate in prayer .

Emeal Zwayne 20:26

Yeah , i do often wonder that you know what is in our lineage that we're not aware of ? You know what relatives did we have that prayed for their future descendants , and where are the byproducts of God using those prayers ?

Mark Spence 20:39

Didn't you come from Judas ?

Ray Comfort 20:43

I actually was thinking of Hitler . I thought , no , i can't say that . Can't you tell by the shifty eyes .

Emeal Zwayne 20:48

Actually , we did a video where we got into Judas . I think I commented on that . But yeah , you know , I do wonder about that . But there is also that danger in that we can pass on misinformation to others . I think there are a lot of dear Catholics that don't even give it a second thought . There's a lot of elk .

Oscar Navarro 21:08

Catholics .

Emeal Zwayne 21:10

They don't give it a second thought . Oh man , we need help here . They don't even give it a second thought . I mean , i remember when I was a kid I was invited by a friend to go to an evangelical church with them . Someone made like some comment and immediately the light switched on for me And it was like God wouldn't want us praying to anyone else but him . God wouldn't want us worshiping anyone else but him . At the time I didn't even conceive that you don't worship Mary . In fact , i remember one time in Lebanon I was visiting family down in Lebanon and I was trying to make the point to them that the Catholic church doesn't actually teach that you should worship Mary . And so you know . but that's what they do , even though it's not their official teaching , but by their actions they're worshiping .

Mark Spence 21:57

So what do you say when somebody says , no , we're not praying to Mary , we're not worshiping Mary ?

Emeal Zwayne 22:02

Your response is Yeah , And that's where I get into an analogy I've shared before I can't remember if I shared on the podcast , but I did in that video we just released And it's an issue of semantics because it's like being told by your doctor make sure not to eat any solids . You have surgery tomorrow . So you go home , you take a bunch of meat , chicken , vegetables , throw them in a blender , blend it up , and then you drink all that stuff . Then you go back to the doctor It doesn't ultrasound before the surgery to make sure everything is clear And he's like wait , wait a minute . I told you not to eat anything . Oh no , no , doctor , I didn't eat , I drank , All right . And so what do you call ?

Mark Spence 22:35

it . Did you come up with that ?

Emeal Zwayne 22:36

It's too brilliant for you to come up with . I did humbly , weakly , gently and beautifully , so God's kind of disciplined me for that . Now , no , but you know what I mean ? It's like it's semantics . What do you call it ? when you're lighting candles to something , you're making images of it , you're lighting incense , you're bowing down , You're kissing it , you're putting wreaths on it , holding it up , i mean , that's worship . And if that's not idolatry , what is ? And so ? and then you're also attributing to someone things that only belong to God , because if I'm praying to Mary here and someone's praying to Mary in Honduras and someone in Russia and someone in China , she's hearing all of those prayers at the same time , meaning she's everywhere at one time and taking notice of all those things . And and again they'll say no , we ask them to pray for us , right ? No , it's . You're crying out , you're , it's just madness . You're attributing omniscience , almost omnipotence , omnipresence to them , and that's dangerous .

Oscar Navarro 23:39

Yeah , you know , what's interesting about the whole aspect of the veneration of Mary is that it's it's relatively recent throughout Catholic theology . As a matter of fact , all of our understanding , all of Catholic's understanding of Mary is within the last 150 years . Within the last 150 years , they develop immaculate conception , which before that , thomas Aquinas denied . Within the last 150 years , we started to believe , we , the Catholics , started to believe that her body was taken up to heaven , that she was the queen of heaven , that she was sinless . That's , that's a new theology that they believe within the last 150 years . The perpetual virginity of Mary . All of these things were not a thing until 150 years or so ago .

Ray Comfort 24:22

Does the average Catholic understand all that ?

Oscar Navarro 24:24

No , i don't think that . I think that most Catholics think that whatever doctrine the papacy have brought about has always been , and they've just kind of come along and reaffirmed it . But actually there's a lot of new Catholic dogmas that are younger than the United States of America . I mean , this is stuff that the early Christians simply didn't believe And you know . again , to try to find common ground , i know that many people misunderstand who Jesus was .

Oscar Navarro 24:55

I think if you talk to many Catholics they think well , yeah , he was both God and man , but maybe he couldn't really relate to us as human because he was God right . And so then they see Mary and the other saints as sort of entry level into relating to God . Can you pray on our behalf ? And I think the misunderstanding of the incarnation of Jesus leads to a lot of these false dogmas and belief systems to truly know that Jesus was fully God and fully man . Because , again , pendulum swinging some people view him as fully God and kind of fully man , like , yeah , he was fully God and of course he was kind of man . Other people view him as fully man and not at all like God . but to be 100% fully God and 100% fully man is the only way we get a substitutionary atonement , we get an intercessor on our behalf and ultimately that we get our salvation is through Jesus and who he was Right . No .

Emeal Zwayne 26:01

Yeah , and Ray , scripture speaks highly of Mary . I mean in Luke 1 , 26 to 38 . in that context , i mean when Gabriel appeared to her , he said to her rejoice , highly favored one . And he said to her blessed are you among women . She found favor with God . He went on to say to her So that's all true . I think Catholics get this perception . They'll say you don't believe in Mary . And that's actually an actual quote . I've heard many times You know what do you mean ? I don't believe in Mary . And that's when I have to emphasize that I believe Mary was a favored , highly blessed woman chosen by God . She was a virgin . I think they , maybe some Catholics even have a misconception . We don't think that Christ was a virgin birth . You know , there's all these misconceptions . But , ray , it's important for us to relate on that level and speak highly of Mary but clarify that we don't worship her . Yeah , we don't believe in .

Ray Comfort 26:51

We believe in Mary , but we don't trust in Mary , And there's a huge difference . You know , when I meet a Catholic , I deliberately go deaf . Someone says I'm a Catholic , I don't want to go into papal infallibility , transubstantiation , myriology , It's all rabbit trails . This person needs to hear the unadulterated biblical gospel because that will be the power of God to salvation . And also , what do you say to a Catholic that says you're not speaking true ? I encourage them to read the New Testament because you find most people who have come out of Catholicism have realized it from reading the Scriptures .

Emeal Zwayne 27:25

Yeah .

Ray Comfort 27:25

There's so many Scriptures that just clash with Catholicism , So you've got a choice to make . is this God's Word or isn't it ? If it's God's Word , I've got to take heed to it .

Oscar Navarro 27:33

Ray , you make a really good point because the last several conversations that I've had with Catholics , we go right to the gospel . What is the gospel And they do not ? it's works-based righteousness , Right , And so to your point . All of those rabbit shells can distract you from the reality that they don't understand salvation .

Emeal Zwayne 27:53

Mark , you're going to chime in on that .

Mark Spence 27:54

Well , i was simply going to say that word highly favored comes from one Greek word , which simply means much grace , right ? So favored in what way ? Like , did she do something ? You know , god has always chosen people that were picked last in the game , if you would . There's not many whys that are picked . There's not many people that are noble that are picked .

Mark Spence 28:16

I mean just look at the four of us Where we have no idea what we're doing . You know , in that word grace , it's unmerited favor . We cannot forget about this right . Mary did not do anything . Where God says , well , I have to use her , Look at her , You know . I mean , she's absolutely immaculate . No , it has nothing to do with us , It had nothing to do with Mary . It has everything to do with God . God's unmerited favor to the infinitely ill-deserving Mary is just like us And we talked about it at the beginning . We opened it up . Mary calls Jesus her God and her Savior in Luke 1.47 . She needed to be saved . Why ? Because she sinned . That's how it works , Yeah .

Emeal Zwayne 28:58

Yeah , and I think , you know there's this almost sort of inability to understand that God chooses imperfect vessels for his purposes . You know , i mean again they'll say , well , no , there's no way Jesus could have been born through a vessel that was sinful . Mary would have been born through vessels that are sinful , even if she was sinless . Like , how do you logically tease that out ? You know , but , yeah , mark , to your point . I mean , when you look back and you see all the different people that God used through history I mean Moses , abraham , david , peter I mean again , our Catholic friends would say Peter was , you know , the first pope chosen .

Emeal Zwayne 29:40

Jesus built his church upon him . And we see Peter constantly blowing it . We see Peter being hypocritical toward the gospel , in regards to the gospel and Galatians 2 . And so I think that's what happens . You know , we just kind of they've turned Mary into something that she's not . She was a sinner saved by grace that God chose to use . And look at her response , even when , after Gabriel appeared to her , she said behold the maid servant of the Lord . Let it be to me , according to your word . Like there wasn't this . Like okay , cool , gabe , you know I'm the mother of God . You know , like are you going to say something , right ?

Ray Comfort 30:17

No , No , I was just thinking about what Mark said before about being chosen last in the game , And that used to happen to me as a kid in school . you know , when you're little , you're last to be chosen .

Emeal Zwayne 30:28

Yeah .

Ray Comfort 30:28

But how consoling that is . in Christ you're first to be chosen . He's last to be . first , god comes to the humble nobodies and uses them , so it's very consoling

Mary's Role in Jesus' Sinlessness

Ray Comfort 30:37

.

Oscar Navarro 30:37

The idea that you brought up earlier , that Mary had to have been sinless in order for Jesus to be born sinless . It gets to the idea of what creates a soul , and there's two different views on that . There's creationism and there's traducingism . Traducingism is that the mother and the father get together and they they create the soul , like the soul is a byproduct of the parents . Creationism , on the other hand , is the idea that God is at work when somebody is created in the womb , that he has a special , a creative aspect to creating the soul in that moment , and that is a historic , traditional view of looking at it . That God is at work in all of us , that you know Psalm 139 , that he puts us together , that he weaves us together as his poetic utterances in the womb , and so that puts that idea to death . You don't need a sinless Mary to have a sinless Jesus , because God's the one that creates every single one of us in the womb .

Emeal Zwayne 31:38

Right , you see how Mary praised God And I think it'd be good for us to look at this . But this is after she goes to Elizabeth and John the Baptist right , leaps in the womb And then Mary magnifies the Lord and it says and Mary said my soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit has rejoiced in God , my savior .

Ray Comfort 31:54

Have you heard this sport of music ? What's that ? Have you heard this sport of music ? I don't know that I have .

Emeal Zwayne 32:00

Is there a good song with that ? I'll have to look it up . For he has regarded the lowly state of his maid servant . I mean that in and of itself , the lowly state of his maid servant . For behold , henceforth all generations will call me blessed For who is mighty . For he who is mighty has done great things for me , and holy is his name , and his mercy is on those who fear him . From generation to generation , he has shown strength with his arm . He has scattered the proud and the imagination of their hearts . He has put down the mighty from their thrones and exalted the lowly . He has filled the hungry with good things and the rich He has sent away empty . He has helped his servant , israel , in remembrance of his mercy , as he spoke to our fathers , to Abraham and to his seed forever .

Emeal Zwayne 32:40

So Mary is pointing to the Lord . She's directing people's gaze and attention toward God , not herself . And Ray , how terrifying is it that Catholics have the doctrine of calling Mary a co-redemptrix . She has a part in our redemption . I mean . That of all things makes me shudder .

Ray Comfort 33:04

Yeah , this is gonna sound silly , but it all comes back to idolatry . When you understand the character and nature of God and His absolute holiness , you don't dare exalt any human being to anywhere near the status of God , and so it's a lack of fear of God That comes from the understanding of Scripture . Read Scripture , read the New Testament , read what God says about Himself , and you'll just see there's none like unto the Lord .

Emeal Zwayne 33:27

Right , I remember a painting in your house many , many years ago and it was of Simeon And he was holding Jesus and a tear was streaming down his face And that always touched me . You know , and I try to imagine what was this , like you know , for Mary , seeing that , Where Simeon says now , Lord , let your servant depart in peace .

Ray Comfort 33:50

Kill me , because I've seen Jesus .

Emeal Zwayne 33:52

Oh man , yeah . And it said he came by the Spirit into the temple . The Holy Spirit was upon him and he took Jesus and he blessed him and he said Lord , now you are letting your servant And this is Luke 22 to 39 said Lord , now you are letting your servant depart in peace , according to your word , for my eyes have seen your salvation , which you have prepared before the face of all peoples , a light to bring revelation to the Gentiles and the glory of your people .

Ray Comfort 34:18

That's goosebump materials . Oh seriously .

Emeal Zwayne 34:22

Like like to . he's a godly and virtuous Jew and he's waiting for the Messiah , and now he's holding them . He just yeah , that gives me chills .

Ray Comfort 34:32

I think Ron De Cianni did it .

Emeal Zwayne 34:34

It may have been Ron De Cianni . Yeah , and there's a tear coming down . You see the light sparkling in the chest Beautiful .

Oscar Navarro 34:39

Yeah , it says it Being afraid of like not dropping him .

Emeal Zwayne 34:45

And Joseph and his mother marveled at those things which were spoken of him , and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary's mother behold , this child is destined for the fallen rising of many in Israel and for a sign which will be spoken against . Yes , a sword will pierce through your own soul . also , that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed . Wow .

Ray Comfort 35:05

Was that at the foot of the cross ?

Emeal Zwayne 35:07

No , that was that . was Simeon still talking ? No , i mean was he referring to the cross . Oh , I see what you mean Piercing Yeah .

Ray Comfort 35:13

So piercing his soul .

Emeal Zwayne 35:15

Yeah , i mean imagine that , though , like Mary experiencing seeing her beloved son . Yeah , he's God and he created her , she gave birth to him , and now he's on that cross Right , and I wonder if the words of Simeon echoed in her . No , they had to have In her mind .

Mark Spence 35:34

You know what ? I find it ironic quiz , i guess for any of you guys . What are the last recorded words of Mary inside the Bible ? Anybody ?

Ray Comfort 35:44

After the resurrection No No .

Mark Spence 35:47

What mark It was at the wedding of Cana Way back then . Those are the last recorded words . It's not . Her last words were do whatever he tells you .

Mark Spence 35:56

Oh , wow Great words for us to grab ahold of and to run with . You know , she's never mentioned again after Acts , chapter one . Yeah , the apostles did not put her in a prominent place , but make no mistake , john undoubtedly took care of Mary as we should be taking care of our parents , or making sure that they are taken care of through the hands of other people and means that who have the ability to do so . But I love those last words .

Ray Comfort 36:23

That's what can be applied to a Catholic that venerates Mary . whatever Jesus says to you , do it . You got to be born again , Yeah .

Oscar Navarro 36:29

That's good , you know . I'm just thinking about what you talked about earlier , easy , which is reminded of me on how utterly different and upside down God's kingdom is . You know you would think that a king and I know we're talking more about the incarnation , but it's there . If you're talking about Mary , i feel like you can't not talk about the incarnation . The king of the universe you would think would be , would we brought in on some amazing throne , born into some wealthy family ?

Oscar Navarro 36:58

And yet we find that God , who created everything , who spoke everything in the being , he reveals himself , he brought himself , he writes himself into the story through a low income teenager in some back country village . And , as a friend once said , like think about this , they were . They were born in a manger , which means the God of the universe . The first breath that he took as a baby was filled with the smell of cow manure . He was , he subjected himself to being held , to being held to being fragile , to being human . This is so unexpected , but as it should be , because we have such a great big God that his ways are just so utterly different And they're so utterly beautiful that how do they not invite your heart into worship ?

Emeal Zwayne 37:57

That's good , yeah , and you know when Jesus had gone missing . You guys remember in Luke 2 , 41 to 51 , where he was . He was over at the temple and he was basically kind of instructing the religious leaders . They were in awe of him there .

Ray Comfort 38:12

And you like to be a bee on the wall ? A cockroach on the wall .

Emeal Zwayne 38:21

Oh , yeah , but I mean , imagine that , you know , as Jesus is sitting there and he's , he's , he's speaking to them . It says they were astonished at his understanding and answers Astonished , it's 12 . Yeah , And , and so then , finally , they find him and Mary says to him son , why have you done this to us ? I love the rawness of that . Why have you done this to us ? Look , your father and I have sought you anxiously . And he said to them why did you seek me ? Did you not know that I must be about my father's business ?

Ray Comfort 38:50

Now , if he had had sin in his heart , he would have said what's the idea of just leaving me and not checking out , right , Right ?

Emeal Zwayne 38:58

Why have you abandoned me ? But they did not understand the statement which he spoke to them . Then he went down with them and came to Nazareth and was subject to them .

Emeal Zwayne 39:07

But his mother kept all these things in her heart . That's touching Again . I don't understand how they didn't understand , in the sense that this wasn't some secret , you know . It wasn't like they were slowly learning about who Jesus was . I mean , gabriel declared it clearly who she was giving birth to , but it did seem to elude them sometimes . I don't know if the Lord had , for certain purposes , kind of blinded their eyes in ways , but nonetheless , mary was kind of like contemplating this , like wow , maybe she thought , oh , when he becomes an adult , you know , then he'll be about his father's business . But Jesus is like no , no , there's a plan in all of this . And yeah , you know we talked about the case of the water and the wine . But these are , i think , two important passages .

Emeal Zwayne 39:56

He turned the wine into water , that's true When I say no , i was kidding . Oh , can you imagine ?

Mark Spence 39:59

No , Get him out of here .

Emeal Zwayne 40:06

But I think these two passages are extremely insightful and important for us to recognize what Jesus would have us do , and this is Mark 30 , mark 3 , 31 to 35 . Then his brothers and his mother came and standing outside , they sent to him , calling him , and they were sitting around him and they said to him look , your mother and your brothers are outside seeking you . But he answered them saying who is my mother or my brothers ? And he looked around in a circle at those who sat about him and said here are my mother and my brothers , for whoever does the will of God is my brother and my sister and mother .

Mark Spence 40:39

And that would have been a perfect time for Jesus to elevate Mary , as is being elevated today in the Catholic church but , he did not do that No .

Emeal Zwayne 40:49

Yeah , exactly , And yeah , that's perfect . And here's another example Luke's 11 , 27 to 28 . And it happened , as he spoke these things at , a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to him blessed is a womb that bore you and the breasts which nursed you .

Mark Spence 41:05

But he said more than that blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it Once again another prime example where Jesus could have ran to his mom and said look , this is a woman that needs to be venerated .

Emeal Zwayne 41:17

Yeah , No , yeah , didn't do it . And after Jesus died and rose again , things would have shifted now to hey , let's now venerate Mary and lift her up . But again , look at her position here . This is Acts 114 . These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication with the women and Mary , the mother of Jesus , and with his brothers . She was amongst the disciples as one of them , in one accord with them . And what ? in prayer and supplication , adoring the Savior .

Mark Spence 41:50

And she also had other children She did . Now , why is it so important for a Catholic to believe that virgin must be a perpetual virgin ? I mean , as if sex is a terrible thing , right , God created sex . It is beautiful for recreation and procreation , and we know , i mean , there's a scripture , right , but in Matthew 125, . But he had no union with her . Joseph and Mary had no union with her until she gave birth to a son and he gave him the name Jesus . So he had no union with her until when , right ? So there's a lot of scripture . It's not even implied , it's very explicit inside of scripture . So why is it so important for you to remain a perpetual virgin ? Sex is a beautiful thing . Call it what it is , yeah .

Emeal Zwayne 42:34

And I want to end on this note . I think that this is kind of parcel with what happens when we begin to give people the status that they shouldn't have . We just begin to create and invent things , and then it becomes this sort of well , if Mary was a perpetual virgin and or if Mary was immaculate and she's the vessel through which Christ came and we're the venerator and she's a co-redemptrix , well , you just start extrapolating from there . Well , there's no way she could have had sex . Well , no , i mean , that's the holy womb and it wouldn't have been possible . And you just start doing stuff like that . And so , ray , how important is it for us to be careful with elevating man , the application of this , because that does happen . I mean , this is how cults get started and how people's lives get devastated when a Christian leader that they elevated falls or whatever . How important is it for us to be careful ?

Emeal Zwayne 43:32

Very important , very very thank you for joining us . Elaborate ray .

Ray Comfort 43:36

That's it . It's very important , don't very important Elabor ray . It's very important every , every godly man or woman should walk in humility of heart always yeah shouldn't , shouldn't want anyone to bow down to us .

Ray Comfort 43:51

We've got jokes , you know , if I have dropped my notes from the pulpit Sometimes in the past , or come up to the front , bend down and pick them up and I stand up , i'm just a man . And Peter said stand up , i'm just a man . So we should never let anyone Exalt us above that which we are , and scripture says that yeah , well , let me just very quickly excited .

Oscar Navarro 44:09

I love the point that you're

Idolizing People and Worshiping God

Oscar Navarro 44:10

making . Venerate To idolatry's might sound extreme , like I would never do that to anybody , but we also have that we do . You have a good point . We have the tendency of lifting people up to be higher than they are . You know , one of the most important things that my pastor always asks of us is he's constantly telling us I want a congregation that doesn't think highly of me , because when you start thinking highly of me This is his words then then you might be hesitant to call me out on sin . You might just assume that my way is the right way . You might get the Moses mentality of like .

Oscar Navarro 44:43

Well , we can't question the visionary and the value . The value of remembering That God wants us to be all a part of his kingdom , that we are all saints , that we are all fallen in nature And that we all have roles to play Prevents us from lifting up leaders and people in our lives and then growing blind spots towards those weaknesses . And unfortunately we see all the time to what your point was easy . We saw all the time in the church when leaders are for lack of a better term venerated And then people start to stop challenging them , stop questioning them and they go on to do Terrible as trotious things . Yeah .

Emeal Zwayne 45:26

Yeah , and and guys , it is in the heart of man , right ? I mean we started off joking talking about the , the Beatles and stuff . But great , you lived back in that era . People , women , would faint . I mean the same thing happened with Michael Jackson and Elvis and I mean people would faint like oh , isn't that a form of like worship ?

Ray Comfort 45:45

Yeah , it really is , and I I'm so consoled by what Paul McCartney said about that . He said when someone comes up and they're just an ore of Paul McCartney , he remembers how he was when he met Elvis . He was an ore , and I remember that great quote that we found years ago where Elvis said to the Beatles if you keep staring at me , i'm going to bed Because we're all . Every one of us is just a lowly human being . Yeah , it's subject to horrible habits . We have to do every day , we have to get asleep at night . There's nothing special about us and the one we should look to as the Lord .

Mark Spence 46:16

Just get close enough to smell their breath . Yeah , no longer . Yeah , Mark .

Emeal Zwayne 46:21

It is a pretty silly notion , isn't it ? like the thought of worshiping a Person ? not , obviously , no one would say I worship this person or that person , but by our actions They are called idols . Yeah , that's true , but but how ridiculous that is a person that can't , at times , control their own hiccups .

Mark Spence 46:43

Yeah , and you've . I've heard you point that out many times . It's so great . Or you've asked have you ever talked to Ralph on the big white phone , ask you know ? just , have you ever thrown up , yeah , right , did you feel like God at that moment ? You know , we all are subject to the fall of Adam and we have felt those repercussions to this day .

Emeal Zwayne 47:05

No , this is the one thing that boggles my mind more than anything in relation to anything intellectual anything and everything ? No , but it's . It's when I hear of evangelicals that converted to Catholicism and now they pray to someone other than God . They bow before a statue of Mary and saints . I prayed Hail Mary every single night After I did my first Holy Communion or for the most part , i mean it was . It was very important to me .

Ray Comfort 47:33

Could you please elaborate on how long ago that was , not just last week .

Emeal Zwayne 47:37

What is Hail Mary ? two days ago , but you know I this was when I was a little boy , you know I did my first Holy Communion . I think I was 10 . So all the way until I was almost 16 , every night almost It was my intention at least and I would pray the Hail Mary until I started going to church with my friend , maybe when I was yeah , maybe 13 , 14 . And then I'm like wait , this isn't right . What am I doing .

Oscar Navarro 48:00

You said you did that when you were a little boy , like raise size or smaller .

Mark Spence 48:07

I'll have to look at pictures . You know , somebody once said Catholicism , you know , welcome to the revolving door of endless works , and when you become a Christian you're set free . My brother Mike , when he became a Christian , the way he tried to explain it to me was I Found out for the first time in my life that I can skip the line and go to the front . Wow , and that was like his way of saying I don't need to do anything . You mean Christ did it all Exactly . There is nothing you could do to earn the smile of God . You know God is not impressed with anything that we do repent , trust Jesus Christ alone for your salvation and Recognize that when Jesus died on the cross , he did it personally and he paid it all in full . And so that you can't pat each other on the back , it's only him .

Emeal Zwayne 48:51

Amen , amen . Friends , and again , we said it before , but I can't reiterate it enough whether you believe us or not , we love Catholics , we care about them . Our hope is that today , if you recognize that you misunderstood Mary Which we do believe is one of the most misunderstood women in history that you understand her now in her proper context . So you have , of course , respect and honor , but but that's it that your focus would be turned to the Christ that she pointed to and That you will adore him and worship him . Thanks for joining us , friends .

Emeal Zwayne 49:21

Oh , don't forget how to make sure God hears your prayers . One way is to only pray to him , so make sure to do

Promotion and Engagement for Podcast

Emeal Zwayne 49:27

that . And don't forget the evidence study Bible and the living waters mugs at living waters calm . Send us your comments , your thoughts , your questions at email at podcast calm . Podcast at living waters calm , something like that . What was it ? podcast at living waters home . And don't forget to comment on the platforms where you listen and to give us a rating . Thank you so much , friends . We'll see you here next time on the living waters podcast , where we have no idea what we are doing . Doing .