I want to know what you would think , because there's two questions . Do you use the name ? Do you use the Preferred pronoun ? That's two different questions . I think I would consider it two different . Yeah , how would you do that ?
Emeal ZwayneYeah , I mean with my child , absolutely not . With a friend , absolutely not . You know , I may meet a stranger , I may not know what they fully are , and they , they give me their name . I mean a name is a name in the sense that you know Someone can say Terry , and Terry is interchangeable male and female , you know , um .
Ray ComfortDiana's not .
Emeal ZwayneMorgan is interchangeable . You know you have different names . Yeah , diana's not . But I'm just saying , like you know , it could be a tricky situation with an unbeliever , but with a someone that I know it absolutely not . I mean , again , we're talking about Extrapolating and saying , well , what about this , what about that ? Well , what if someone changes their name to I hate God and they want me to call them that ? I think you know like , of course not , I'm not gonna do it .
Emeal ZwayneThere are those , those situations where we have to step back and say , no , I'm gonna . I'm gonna sit down with my child and I'm gonna say I love you with all that there is within me . The worst thing I could do for you is play along . I'm not gonna give in to this insanity that the world has adopted as reality and and contribute to your deception . I love you and because I love you , there's no way I'm gonna call you that . You're my , you're my child . And you may think I'm unloving because you think I'm saying , oh , I don't want to have Contact with you . I'm telling you I want to have all the contact in the world with you . It's good , but I'm gonna continue to call you what I named you and I'm gonna continue to use the pronouns that belong to you . We have seen iguanas on shoulders . We've seen snakes around the necks , we've seen falcons on wrists , but as a first-ever in human history , friends , ray Comfort has decided to live life with a dog on his head .
Ray ComfortWell , you've seen that picture oh yeah . Picture it looks like a living wig right .
Emeal ZwayneWhat in the world is with you and Lucy On your head ?
Ray Comfortevery night , almost every night , she comes running up , runs up the back of the seat and climbs over and just lays on the head , with her head down in front of my eyes , and I I actually like it .
Oscar NavarroYeah , I have , it makes me feel like Davey .
Ray ComfortCrockett or something .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , you sent one the other day and I thought first I was thrown off . I thought this is a very bizarre ugly , dirty wig .
Mark SpenceIf you want to see it right , it's on Ray's Twitter page , is that right , ray ? Where did we see that ?
Ray ComfortI think it's on my Twitter page , yeah yeah .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , ray , why you live in your life this way with a dog on your head . Have you met Ray Comfort ? You know what , ray ? For years you've been trying to figure out how to draw crowds .
Ray ComfortThis is it .
Emeal ZwayneThe old dog on the head . Just strap Lucy permanently to your head and that'll get Billions of people to look at you .
Oscar NavarroWe went to the dog store where you're like , um , what kind of dog you live from what ? What would be on my head ?
Mark SpenceTo pay dog to pay dog .
So okay , when you see someone with a snake around your neck , your neck , their neck , when you see someone with a snake around their neck , is that I mean it's gotta be for attention ? Why in the world would anyone put a snake ?
Ray Comfortaround that . It's a potential interview . That's what I see . It's all Ray sees Uh-huh wait mark .
Emeal ZwayneDidn't you witness to it ? Someone with a snake ?
Mark SpenceI did to the snake , I witnessed to the snake and they listened in . Was that a Satanist you witnessed ? Yeah , there were two Satanists , and the one guy , the husband , was a pro-life .
Ray ComfortShe was a Satanist . Oh , that was a .
Mark SpenceAnd the other one was yeah , that's on our YouTube channel . Yeah , yeah , yeah , but she changed her mind . That was really neat .
Emeal ZwayneThat was a really good idea .
Mark SpenceNo , the woman . Oh , sorry yeah .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , I mean you know persona , right , Like when I see someone with a Just a massive pit bull and they've got the spikes around its neck and the thing just looks it's like that . I mean I'm trying to imagine someone doing that with a snake around their neck and a dog I'm saying at the same time and a dog on their head . I think the dog on their head would eliminate the whole thing .
Ray ComfortI would never like a snake , a remnant . I mean just the thought of the snake thinks I've had enough of you , I'm done , I'm just gonna squeeze yeah squeeze and I kind of Ray speaking of parrots , that's legitimate .
Emeal ZwayneOkay , ray , you got bitten by a parrot once .
Ray ComfortYeah , it was Humiliating , was actually a crowd watching because this guy was homeless . My heart broke from me . Listened to the gospel , I think . Um , he did . And then I said can I pray for you ? And he said yes . I put my hand on his shoulders a big parrot there and I didn't think the parrot would say to herself lunch . So served up lunch a little .
Emeal ZwayneWhat are you ?
Ray Comfortgonna pray for him or something . Yeah , I put my hand on the shoulder to pray for my start of praying , and that's when the parrot bit my finger . I heard .
Emeal ZwayneI parent forget . Charlie parrot bit my finger . You know , I used to have a parrot named Bart . You did not , I did .
Ray ComfortI had a goat named Abraham .
Emeal ZwayneDid you really ? Yeah , yeah , bart , and I used to stick Bart's head in my mouth and it would peck my teeth .
Oscar NavarroWhat's wrong with you ?
Emeal ZwayneI have no idea , but it was a cool thing . I have a picture somewhere of his head in my mouth . Was he like picking off the food ? I don't know what he do , but he loved it , he wanted .
Ray Comforthe wanted to be a dentist .
Emeal ZwayneDentist parrot .
Ray ComfortYeah , I was doing my dentist the other day and he said he absolutely loves every minute of what he does Looking down human drain pipes .
Emeal ZwayneIt really loves a dream and I just said .
Ray ComfortI , I thank God we're all different , because I couldn't think of anything worse . We've all got a friend here who loves looking at warts and things like that . Oh , oh , helitosis .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , seriously like , how do you deal with that ? You just finished lunch . You come , someone opens their mouth and they have the worst Hello toast is imaginable . You drop something down .
Oscar NavarroLet's get Rachel on the lion and ask her deals with it .
Ray ComfortHalsis is a good word because it begins with the right wording . Hello .
Emeal ZwayneNo hell .
Ray ComfortSo okay , you guys mentioned .
Emeal ZwayneRay , you're talking about a snake and all that good job .
So would you rather be eaten by a lion or squeezed to death by an anaconda ?
Ray ComfortI'd rather be squeezed to death . Yeah , anaconda , I think , because the lion might say I'm gonna stretch lunch out today . I'll start with a leg or something .
Oscar NavarroOh , I feel like for the line I feel like you're gonna pass out before you feel most of the pain , torture and death with the Snake , the lion . I don't yeah to your point . I don't want to sit there and watch him just eat my insides .
Ray ComfortYeah , yeah , yeah . You know what to do if we're all thrown into a big lion's den . I've told you what to do . No , I should . I've told you before you run at the wall with your head down .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , knock yourself out first . All right friends , and up of all that stuff . This Podcast is no . I'm gonna give a comment . Why don't I always want to go to the resource ? This is from Bre tall white . Welcome to a friend group to glean wisdom . I've been listening for a couple of months now and love this podcast . All four men take their walks with the Lord seriously , with Thanksgiving and joy . This is displayed through the friendship on Display , as well as their convictions on each topic . I recommend every time I'm around someone , my dad and I like to start our texting or in person conversations with all right friends . Oh , you're now my best friend , bre .
Ray ComfortOut of the end . Thanks for reading this white rick's ?
Emeal ZwayneYeah , we have no idea what we're doing . Yeah , and this podcast , friends , is brought to you by the gospel of John Million . Is that what we call , that thing ? Million dollar gospel of John . Oh , there we go . Million dollar gospel of John and Ray . Where did that idea come from ? By the rain , I just thought of it .
Ray ComfortIt was in the pack files and I pulled it forward it just came out .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , I'm trying to remember , ray . When was the first time we did something with currency ?
Ray ComfortYeah , it was head Bill Gates on it . It was a million dollar .
Mark SpenceOh yeah and I put them in a pad .
Ray ComfortSo that you'd rip one off . There were actually the hundred and I got the Put two in the pad , but that didn't work , because every time you gave someone a million dollar bill , there's this gooey , sticky substance on my knee that you get when you rip things off like that . Yeah it was a ripoff .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , and then , and then we went from that to the first million . We just did a million did a million and then it's it actually evolved . Little by little little by little then we went to the billion , then we went to the trillion and we wanted to do a Brazilian , just just .
Oscar NavarroBrazil . How many , how many million dollar bill tracks are we giving out ?
Ray Comforthundreds of millions , I think . I mean it's our number one .
Oscar NavarroIt's over 200 million now .
Emeal ZwayneHow many which track ? He said million dollar bill track . Oh , so many .
Ray ComfortYeah , I need to get things over 200 million , which , yeah , one one , it's just one like trying to reach .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , it's , it's our number one selling tract and it's just been amazing how I get , when I give one out .
Ray ComfortI think everyone's got one of these . This person gonna say what is it ?
Emeal ZwayneI've had six of these ?
Ray Comfortwhat are you doing ? But they , there must be new , these new babies coming along , yeah , and the applications we've had for it .
Emeal ZwayneI mean , we've done them for Halloween , christmas , we did them for the Coronation . There's just so many people , just they love them and we're doing them for the Olympic outreach . Yeah , what Ray ? What are we gonna do when the world goes cashless and there's no more currency and there's nothing we could replicate it after ?
Ray ComfortWe do a nothing tract .
Emeal ZwayneNothing . Mark of the beast track yeah . Million dollar . Mark of the barcode track yeah , yeah . All right friends , so make sure to check that out . Oh , by the way , the million dollar Gospel of John is also associated with something we call the vault . The vault , that was brilliant , ray , the only brilliant idea I think you've ever come Know the vault was was really really good .
Mark SpenceSo , mark what is the ball ? Oh , there you go . Mark , what is the way ? Or .
Emeal ZwayneOscar Navarro go ahead .
Mark SpenceOscar Navarro , the explainer , the vault is it's about ?
Oscar Navarroit's a little bit .
Ray ComfortEasy , would you ? There's one behind you give it a Oscar , so he's not running blind .
Oscar NavarroThe vault is a little bit bigger than the size of an average shoebox and it is designed to look like a bank box .
Ray ComfortWhat size shoes do you not not to ?
Oscar Navarroit's about 15 inches long . It designed to look like a bank vault . You can buy one of these and when you open it up You've got a giant supply of 100 of . Is it a hundred ? Yeah , it's a hundred . I have Gospel of John . Million dollar bill booklets .
Emeal ZwayneMark seems to doubt it's a hundred . I'm starting to think it's 50 .
Mark SpenceI'm gonna look it up , should we not know our resources here ? I think it's a hundred .
Emeal ZwayneI think it's a hundred Anyway .
Oscar NavarroWell , there's only one way you can find out . That's by going to livingwonderscom and picking one up yourself .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , and friends , don't forget the mug , the mug , the mug is still selling the mug People are getting the mug with our mugs on it , and I don't mind you to pray for us , and yeah , pray for us .
Ray ComfortMass confirms a hundred .
Mark SpenceIt is 100 copies of a conveniently sized Gospel of John that uses a very eye-catching cover to stir curiosity , designed after our best-selling Gospel track . It's a sure way to get the world's attention . Yeah , just make that up Just like that .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , no credit .
Oscar NavarroAnd what's cool is you can keep the vault , which is a box that looks like a vault , and then revolt when you're done Right , or you can put your shoes in it , or , if you're ready , you can put three pairs of shoes in it .
Ray ComfortActually Sue , and I live in a shoebox .
Emeal ZwayneAll right , friends . There you have it . Don't forget to have an evidence study Bible at livingwaterscom . All right , a very important topic to discuss today . It's one that is becoming more prevalent . This would have been irrelevant if we go back . What A ?
Ray Comforttwo-weeks .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , decade or two , definitely three or four . And today we're going to talk about how to interact with a child meaning your child , a relative or a friend who is a member of the LGBTQ community . Guys , it seems like almost every week the LGBTQ agenda is advancing and I remember years ago when certain things were starting . I mean , okay , homosexuality , obviously we know it's been along for a long time . I remember when I was a kid there was a drama we used to watch as a family called Dynasty . You guys remember Dynasty Ray .
Oscar NavarroMark .
Emeal ZwayneI know , oscar I was praying and fasting .
Oscar NavarroWas this on ?
Emeal ZwayneLebanese television .
Oscar NavarroYeah .
Emeal ZwayneOn Habibi Huka and Shawarma TV .
Mark SpenceYou never watched it ?
Emeal ZwayneNo , sorry , we didn't get that channel . Yeah , but no , it was a famous , it was a really famous show .
Ray ComfortWas it like Dallas ?
Emeal ZwayneYes it was . It would be equivalent to Dallas . It was this wealthy family in Denver . Anyway , their husband came out as their husband , their son came out as homosexual . But I remember as a kid seeing that and back then it was like what you know ? And the response was like but they were slowly starting to bring it in Like you know , I still love you , you're my son , but this is you know . But to me , when the transgender thing hit , I didn't even pay attention to it because it was like , yeah , whatever you know people dressing up like women and men . It was just you know . And then , before I knew it , it was like overnight it became like something that was being legitimized . It was like wait , wait , wait , hold on , slow down . This was . It seemed like it was just becoming something that went from people that put on wigs and like to act like they're women to like people saying no , I am a woman . And then society jumping on the bandwagon and saying , yes , they are a woman , they are a real woman .
Ray ComfortAnd it's the emperor , has no clothes . Yeah , the emperor , yeah Well . I don't know whether it'd be male or female , so I put the emperor the emperor .
Emeal ZwayneEmpress , yeah . And now , guys , it's become . All of this stuff has become so mainstream . There's a new letter that's added , it seems like every day , to the LGBTQ . What , what , what , plus , plus . I just don't even know what it is anymore . And we've talked time and again about the importance of compassion , even in this . So we can't step back as Christians and be like , oh right , I mean , obviously we should be grieved and vexed by the wickedness associated with it , but there are lost people behind it , and I know people listening have friends , family members that are in the homosexual , bisexual , transgender and whatever else is out there now .
Oscar NavarroI love what you just did there , easy , in case anybody didn't pick up on it . Essentially what you did was you looked at it from a cultural perspective about . You used phrases like the agenda , and all those things are really important . I think we need to be educated as voters , as citizens . Even though we are here in Babylon as exiles , we are still in a call to participate , as voters and citizens , in understanding what the agenda is . When we look at it from that perspective , the temptation is to then take our personal interactions with friends and family members in the LGBT community and treat them as a byproduct of the agenda only , and I love that you started there but then you shifted into . We have to still consider our compassion , and the title of this is how to interact which is personal .
Oscar NavarroIt's moving away from the political and into the personal , because if we treat the individuals in our lives as a representation of the agenda , we're going to miss the opportunity to be compassionate towards them . Yeah Right , we don't minimize sin . We understand how we got here , but now you're face to face with a person and that looks a lot differently . So I just I really appreciate that you sort of defined those two things .
Emeal ZwayneThank you , Mark . You look like you were going to say something .
Mark SpenceNo , the whole thing is a bit confusing to me as well . We can't define what a woman is anymore . We put a woman on the Supreme Court who can't define what a woman is because she's not a biologist . We say that men can have a say about abortion because they don't have a uterus and , at the same time , men can be women even they don't have a uterus , and genitalia has nothing to do with gender . At the same time , someone who's in that position , who was born biologically a male , will cut off genitalia in order to now identify as a female . So all of a sudden , it does have something to do with that .
Mark SpenceSo there's just been a mass area of confusion that is attached to this . We understand that . At the same time , now we need to progress to exactly what Oscar's saying here . There's people in our families , in our neighborhoods , friends , people that we work with , that are struggling , that have adopted that . Our YouTube video array that we uploaded Victor or Victoria you know it's moved from cross dressing into just craziness , and we are the intolerant ones if we do not just accept this . But we need to move from being accepting to these things to celebrating . They want us to celebrate the LGBTQ community . So now , how do we , as Christians , how do we deal with our son who comes to us and says Dad , I think I'm gay , or , dad , I'm getting married , I want you to be there , I want you to be my best man ? How do we deal with these things ? And that's what this topic is about .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , and Ray , I want you to just kind of give us some clarity on this
. You go out , you encounter people within the LGBTQ community all the time . We just released another video recently where you talked to a gentleman named Carlos , who is going by the name Diana , I believe Diana . And then we had the Victor Victoria thing , like you said , and especially with this recent one , ray , it was just so touching because Carlos started out talking about you know who he was and all that . By the end of the discussion , I remember you asked him what's your real name and without skipping a beat and I texted you about this after I watched the video he goes my name is Carlos , and it was almost like to say , yeah , I'm done with the silly stuff , kind of thing .
Emeal ZwayneAnd so we want to work toward the family , because there's a unique aspect there , because you finish witnessing that person , you move on , you don't see them again . But you have people . Some have people they have to live with , interact with , and there are critical decisions they have to make in those interactions . But generally speaking , ray , what's your approach with those in that community ?
Ray ComfortWell , let me give some details . With Carlos , it was just this last Monday I went to . I go to school twice a day on my electric bike and because there's some sort of spring break at the moment , it's very sparse , so sometimes I go around the whole college and there's nobody there . This was a day like that . I was about to say , okay , I'm going back home , lord , there's nobody here . I prayed , but and suddenly I see the six foot person with eye makeup on , walking towards me . Six foot four .
Ray ComfortSix foot four I'm sorry , six foot , yeah , makes a difference . Six foot four , huge with breasts , if I may say that on a program with five o'clock shadow and eye shadow very thick around the eyes .
Oscar NavarroYeah , so six foot four . For those who don't understand , that's about six feet taller than Ray .
Ray ComfortYeah , it's huge . I was just looking up to this person and I said would you like to interview ? And he said yeah . The person said yeah , and so I said what's your name ? And he said Diana . And I thought okay , this is going to be very interesting .
Ray ComfortSo we sat down and we just talked about different things and I said do you believe in God's existence ? And he said yeah , but I , you know , I said no , what , what ? What are you talking about ? He says I'm trans . I don't think God is happy with that part of my life . And so I did what I normally do just overlook that whole trans homosexual thing and look at , look at , remember 1 Timothy , chapter one , verses eight through 10 , which says the law was made for , and it gives us a list and in that list it says homosexuals . So if you want to witness to a homosexual , don't downcry his , his , his pet sin , because he's got his boxing gloves on . He's expecting you to do that as a fundamentalist , bible basher and intolerant person . Just take him through the law and show him that he sinned against God and that he's in big trouble with his creator , despite a sexual orientation .
Ray ComfortAnd that happened with Carlos . I went through the whole thing . And then I said have I offended you ? And he looked at me and said not at all . You've spoken the truth . And he said I got to tell you . I was on my way home today to commit suicide and you stopped me today . And I was very , very moved and I said can I give you a hug ? And we had a hug and I told him that I loved him . And then I said you want to pray and get right with God ? And I said watch it , watch your real name . He said Carlos . And it was like you said . It was just like let's run all this junk away and I'm going to be honest before God .
Ray ComfortAnd so the same principle comes into play . When you've got a family member , you don't want to get caught up on the branches when you need to go to the root . And so take them through the commandments , show them they condemned before God , despite what they imagined them to be , their own sexual orientation . And it really is there . I mean , you say to anyone could you be a woman ? You know if your imagination could say oh , that would be interesting , I'd like to give it a try . And suddenly you're into the demonic realm and you're possessed by a feminine spirit . You sound like a woman , a feminist and characteristics , and so you need to go to the root of the problem . So you've sinned against God . You need to save you , because if you die in your sins tonight , you're going to be damned by God and end up in hell , and that don't want that to happen . That's going for the root . Now we're going to talk about what happens if that person doesn't come to repentance . How do you handle it ?
Oscar NavarroYeah , what I love about you , ray and I've seen this over and over again when you're talking to people in the LGBT Q community is you reject the idea that their identity is caught up in their sexuality , and that is a rarity in our culture today , because the LGBTQ community believes that their identity is in their sexuality .
Oscar NavarroI am trans , you are straight , and that is an anomaly in human history . We have never directly drew a direct line between who we are and our sexuality , and yet our culture does that today and unfortunately , there are many conservatives that will often do the same thing . They will look at somebody in the LGBTQ community and they will treat them as their primary identity , as a part of their sexuality . They just do it from a different perspective and when you talk to these individuals , as you just pointed out , you treat someone who's transgendered in the same one that someone who confesses they've stolen , as someone who confesses they've had pyramidal sex . You treat them as image bearers and you proclaim the gospel to them . You don't allow them to prioritize their identity into their sexuality , and I just think it speaks volumes of your love for them and your understanding of the issue .
Ray ComfortThat's very kind .
That video was called . Diana was going home to commit suicide when God intervened Wow . So if anyone wants to , it's very , very moving .
Emeal ZwayneYou know , mark , you mentioned the aspect of the world wanting us to celebrate this lifestyle , and that's what it is . People like to say , oh , I'm a homosexual , I am bisexual , I'm transgender , and in reality , rather than giving people these labels , I think we need to view it from the perspective of you choose to live a certain way and do certain things , but as soon as people legitimize a sort of a category or a title , then they begin to associate it with this is who I am , because this is how I was born , instead of no , you're choosing to do certain things . But now it comes to family , it comes to our children , to our relatives , and they want us to celebrate it too , in the sense that they want us to accept it and go on like life is normal , at the very least Right . And in fact , I've heard of someone recently who got very offended that their family , who they knew , is totally opposed to that lifestyle . They were offended that they didn't congratulate them when they got engaged to another man .
Emeal ZwayneAnd so how do we deal with that ? How do we communicate to them that , no , we love you , but we can never and will never celebrate this , you know , and I would equate it to like someone wanting you to celebrate the fact that they are being adulterous . Hey , aren't you going to congratulate me , right ? Because again , that is immorality , even if the adultery was warranted and that not warranted , but even if it was something that was permitted . Oh , my husband said I can be adulterous , it's fine , celebrate it with me . We can't do that .
Mark SpenceWe absolutely cannot do that , right . The commandments of the Lord are not burdensome , neither are the rules of my house . If I had one of my kids come to me and said , dad , but I was born this way , and I would say , well , that's why you need to be born again . And somebody says , well , I am born again . And I said , well , we have a problem , right . So we handle this issue in two different ways .
Mark SpenceIf somebody claims to be a Christian , I'm going to handle it different than somebody who does not claim to be a Christian . If somebody's attending my church and they say that they are in a lifestyle that is practicing homosexuality , I would approach them . It would be a Matthew 18 approach . If they don't listen , I'm going to bring two or three other people with me . Then it goes before the elders and then it enters into a place of excommunication because they claim to be a Christian . That we hand them over to Satan for a season and then we have nothing to do with them . If we do have any interaction with them , it's a call to repentance . That's how you deal with the believer inside the house , right ? If my child claims to be a believer , I'm going to painstakingly and longsufferingly sit down with them , show them what scripture has to say , demonstrate that scripture alone is our source of authority and our foundation for all practices . And now if they say , well , I guess I'm not a Christian , then I'm going to handle it differently . I am going to show more deference , I'm going to be more respectful in my approach to allowing them to work through different things . As a Christian , it's just more of a call to repentance If they do not claim to be a Christian . I might use a little bit of philosophy and a little bit of science in the midst of it as well .
Mark SpenceWhat is right , what is wrong ? You say that you want to live this life . Well , would it be okay if I had a relationship with an animal ? Are you okay with that ? If not , why not ? Where do we now get our source of right and wrong from ?
Mark SpenceIf it is up to each person individually , I'm going to try to reason with them , the same way you just did about the adultery when , hey dad , I just robbed a bank . Aren't you going to celebrate with me ? No , I'm not going to celebrate with you . There are rights and wrongs and you have a set of values as well . Where do you base what do you base those on , all the while being respectful and slow to speak and quick to listen .
Mark SpenceYou know it's put by God's grace that we ourselves , individually , are not in that same boat . So my heart breaks for any parent that is inside that position , but it's not something that we need to lose heart or grow weary over . Paul Washer said the only reason why there's not more Adolf Hitler's in the world because we all have it within us to be an Adolf Hitler is God's grace . So nobody's better than the other . He may be in a better off position , but that doesn't make you better than so . We need to see these people as individuals created in the image of God , always show dignity , always give hope and always be respectful in our interaction with them . Amen .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , oscar , the pendulum swings , doesn't it ? To one extreme or another . I mean , there's this sort of perspective of either we're just totally accepting and affirming or we're irate and angry and flying off the handle with people we can walk even our children , our family members , our relatives through this in love . And it is a unique situation when it comes to our family members because there are a lot more interactions and different scenarios , whether it's they're living with us or we're seeing them at gatherings , or they're inviting us to their gay wedding , or they want us to call them now he when it's a woman , and vice versa , right ? So what are your thoughts on that ?
Oscar NavarroYeah , I think . I think when we're displaying the love of God and we're communicating the truth of God , the world is simply not gonna know what to do with us . Which reminds me of the story that I heard , rosario Butterfield . She was a lesbian living with her Life partner , owned a home together . She was a professor teaching at a , a respected college on LGBT plus Q . She was on the board of many nonprofits that were pro-LGBT Q . She had regular gatherings I mean , she was in it and she communicates it every time .
Oscar NavarroShe wrote for the New York Times or the Atlantic , something pro-LGBT Q that she would get a flood of letters and she said that she would get . She had two piles , that she had a hate mail pile and a love pile of people that were Affirming what she did . So she'd open the letter and she'd read it hate mail , love , hate mail , love . And she gets one by a Presbyterian pastor that is in her neighborhood and she reads it and she says I Didn't know what , what category to put it in , I wasn't sure what pile . So she says that she leaves it on her desk and like , goes home and it's just like trying to think through what was that letter . And she comes back and she rereads it and she sends the guy an email because he invited her for a conversation . And he invites her over for dinner with his wife , there in their home . She meets their kids and he just starts asking her questions and he presents the gospel and he opens God's Word and he reads her scripture and he he says like , hey , would you do me a favor , would you consider reading I can't remember what gospel that he asked her to read and let's , we'd love to have you over for dinner again . So they end up in this ongoing conversation , this friendship . He'd send her emails and pray for her . They'd have her over for dinner on a regular basis . Now she is saved and Married to a Presbyterian pastor homeschooling three kids , and so the point that I'm making here is what ? What did that pastor do ?
Oscar NavarroRosario Butterfield say that he did three things . First , he showed her hospitality . He gathered with her regularly . He invited her into gospel community , she says , be a community where everyone is repenting of something all the time . She said that she witnessed them repenting and apologizing of these little things and it made her feel comfortable , like there wasn't a facade , like these weren't morally righteous people that felt like they were better than her . She says that he got away from the culture war and just practice daily , ordinary , radical hospitality . So show hospitality .
The second thing she said he did is he did not downplay sin . He did not downplay sin .
Oscar NavarroNo , that wasn't something that he held back as the reality of sin . And third , he preached the gospel to her . He presented what God has done for her so that she can be free and invited into what she would call a new kingdom , a kingdom that she did not know existed . And so what can we do for our friends , family , loved ones ? We can show hospitality . We don't downplay sin and we preach the gospel .
Emeal ZwayneOh man , you know , ray , it's perceived to be love when we go along with everything that someone wants , and so the conclusion , though , is never drawn out right . So it's like , hey , if your son wants you to start calling him Cindy and he wants you , he wants you to start calling which son .
Emeal ZwayneWould it be he wants you to start calling him she ? You know you you're supposed to do it because that's a kind loving thing to do , right ? What would you do ? And let's talk is we may even have differences in how we approach this . I want to tease us out . I have my perspective . You guys might say , no , I would do this , I wouldn't . What would you do , seriously , if one of your kids said a dad Call me Cindy , one of your sons call me Cindy and you start using my pronoun ?
Ray ComfortShe say it's Daniel . I just say call me Sunday . It gives me three days of rough to deal with us . You know , when I was Speaking with Carlos last Monday , I called him Diana probably eight times and I did it for the sake of the gospel , but I don't think I do that with one of my kids .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , and that was my whole point , because you this is a stranger , you're not gonna be seeing them all the time . You did it tactfully and at the end you brought it back . I said what's your name ? Like you're breaking through on real name , your real name , right ? So so , yeah , yeah , so .
Ray ComfortI wouldn't , I wouldn't , wouldn't do that with my kids . I'm not gonna play that , that game , and pretend that he's a girl and that his name is Cindy .
Emeal ZwayneNo .
Ray ComfortDaniel , he's a boy , and that's all there is to sorry , daniel , he's an illustration . Yeah , there's , no , there's no . I'm not gonna compromise in any way . Yeah , I love him . I'm not gonna play . Play silly games .
Oscar NavarroYeah , I want to know what you think , because there's two questions . Do you use the name ? Do you Use the preferred pronoun ? That's two different questions . I think I would consider it two different . Yeah , how would you do that ?
Emeal ZwayneYeah , I mean with my child , absolutely not . With a friend , absolutely not . I may meet a stranger and I may not know what they fully are , and they give me their name . I mean , a name is a name in the sense that you know , someone can say Terry , and Terry is interchangeable , male and female , you know .
Ray ComfortDiane is .
Emeal ZwayneMorgan is interchangeable . You know you have different names , yeah , but I'm just saying like it could be a tricky situation with an unbeliever , but with a someone that I know , absolutely not . I mean , again , we're talking about Extrapolating and saying , well , what about this , what about that ? Well , what if someone changes their name to I hate God and they want me to call them that ? You know ? Like , of course not , I'm not gonna do it .
Emeal ZwayneAnd so there are those , those situations where we have to step back and say , no , I'm gonna , I'm gonna sit down with my child and I'm gonna say I love you . With all that there is within me , the worst thing I could do for you is play along . I'm not gonna give in to this insanity that the world has adopted as reality and and contribute to your deception . I love you and because I love you , there's no way I'm gonna call you that . You're my , you're my child . And and you may think I'm unloving because you think I'm saying , oh , I don't want to have contact with you I'm telling you I want to have all the contact in the world with you , but I'm gonna continue to Call you what I named you and I'm gonna continue to use the pronouns that belong to you .
Mark SpenceYeah , as a man , I feel exactly the same way . I mean , that was so well , so well put . I especially liked that . That one example that you gave about what , if they change the name to I hate . God , yeah , or Jesus , is a yeah , an expletive right . No , I , I'm not going to do that . In the same way forward , I meet a stranger and their name was was that ? I wouldn't do that , I would just Avoid it all together yeah , exactly .
Oscar NavarroI have a little bit of a different perspective , mostly agree with you . No , and here's , here's where I'm coming from . I think if there's relational value in history there and it makes sense , then you , then I would agree with you . So in other words , like I don't think Bono's dad or mom Calls him Bono , right , I don't think Madonna's mom or dad , if they're still alive , calls her Madonna . They probably call her by her given name there in that sense .
Oscar NavarroAnd in that sense I would agree with you . I think you , you have ready relational value and currency with your children and if they're changing their name , there's precedence there to call them by the name that you've always known them . However , names are fluid and the proof of that is I've never called you by your born name . I've always called you easy right . I've called you by the name that you've chosen to go by and I honor that . It's not a lie . It's that you've chosen to go by that name and so that's the relation . Maybe your parents or maybe some some of your siblings still call you the original name . They have relational value , currency in history there and it makes sense for them to do that . But I honor your request by calling you the name that you go by now and in that same way , my variation to what you're saying and again , I mostly agree with you I don't want to participate in a lie .
Oscar NavarroI I have deep conviction about pronouns . I cannot participate in a lie . I feel like I'm joining you in lying if I'm calling you a pronoun that is anything but how God you created you to be . Yeah , and I will avoid that . People who ? There are people in my life that I see on a regular Basis that go , that would prefer going by a pronoun that is not the pronoun that God gave them , and I don't participate in that lie . But there are also people in my lives that I don't have relational currency or history with , and I've only ever met them or known them as their new name , and I have chosen to use that name with them in hopes to To honor their they're asking on something that that is , I think , a gray area and hopefully to gain relational currency with that person .
Oscar NavarroSo that they feel like I'm a trusted individual that can then participate in having , you know , having doing life with them . Yeah , and so I think this is a gray area , for sure I think it's by actually gray area Let me take that back because that's that makes it sound subjective . But I will say I think that we have a certain freedom in Christ to lead by our own convictions in this space .
Emeal ZwayneAs it pertains to names , yeah , I think pronouns is pretty clear in my in up , in my opinion , but names , I see the argument on both sides is essentially , I'm saying yeah , and and again , like I was saying , if it was a stranger that I met , and just like Ray , with Diana or Carlos you know he was , he was using tact in that regard yeah , and I think yeah , there could be , I would still struggle , to be honest . I mean , if it's a , if it's a clearly a guy and he's telling me call me Jennifer , which is , in our culture , a very , you know , clearly it's a , it's a clearly feminine name , I would really , I don't know , I would struggle . I would try to , like Mark said , I would try to avoid the use of the name .
Ray ComfortYeah , I think I speak to someone for now without using the name and yeah , love and kindness .
Oscar NavarroYeah , yeah and so so I think you know it's , it's definitely touchy , but Well , let me say this too for those , for you guys , honestly , not for those listening before you guys , I , these , I . This is one of the reasons why I love you guys . It's because I have a great deal of respect for you , a great deal of respect how you've studied and known God's word and in all three of you have been following Jesus longer than me , and so I Love hearing your perspective because because it makes me reconsider and challenge where I'm at currently .
Emeal ZwayneSo I appreciate conversations , yeah , no for sure , you know I get to you gotta work through it and there's times where you think , oh , this is definitely the way to do it . Someone says , well , like this because of this , and it's like , ah , okay , you know , I can , I can see that you know , and so so , mark , you know . Another thing is like now , weddings and Engagement parties and you know things like that where , where people are expecting family to participate in it and to Normalize it . So there .
Mark SpenceThere is no way I would attend my son's wedding if he was going to marry Another guy , the . The most loving thing I can do , remember , love is giving somebody what they need , not what they want . Yeah , and love is a verb , which means love is an action . Right , when people say I've fallen out of love with you , you're saying I've chosen to no longer love you . Yeah , right , so I'm not going to choose to turn a blind eye to sin . I cannot do it .
Mark SpenceAnd the example that we we've used time and time again dad , I'm gonna go rob this bank and would you just mind hanging out in the car . You know it's full proof . We're don't worry , we're not gonna eat arrested . I want you to see how easy this is . And then we're gonna have a barbecue at my house . You know with it , you know with the money and the spoils , and we'll even give you a cut , whatever it may be . No , it's ridiculous . We do not celebrate sentiment or the outcome of it . So the most loving thing I could say is no , I'm not going to do that . I'm not going to give a gift and you are welcome inside my
house .
Mark SpenceIf they were to call , go through and and have a and get so-called get married in . Bear in mind they're not getting married . Yeah , I don't know what you want to call it , but they're not getting married because Marriage has already been defined as a man and a woman by the only person who can define it , which is God . Yeah , so now , if he says he's gonna go through with this civil union and he gets married , and now he wants to come and hang it up my house , they would not be able to stay inside the same room . I would not allow that . I would have to think through whether or not both can be inside my house . You know I haven't crossed that , but if they did , if I did acquiesce and say , yeah , you guys can be inside my house , they definitely will not be in the same room that night . Yeah , you know they will . That will be two separate rooms . So there's no way . There's no way I would be a part of that .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , and Ray , that brings up in other scenario , right , so you have . I've never seen such a dejected look . I'm feeling I want to talk about .
Ray ComfortPhysically sick and the thing to myself , the way to handle this whole thing , is moved to a far country .
Emeal ZwayneSo your relatives , yeah , no , I mean it's difficult , but man , we got to work through these things , you know .
Ray ComfortBut but yeah , you know you know , I was just thinking okay , they got a sleep in separate rooms and I was in there holding hands during yeah .
Emeal ZwayneSo that's what I want to talk about , because this is the thing , right , normalizing it . You've got that there are all these repercussions that end up being related to it . So then you have kids , you have younger children in the family . I mean you've got , if you've got multiple kids , they've got cousins and you know , and you've got other other younger relatives or whatever . So they come over and then now they want to hold hands or they want to be affectionate not acceptable .
Emeal ZwayneOr they want to . Yeah , so stuff like that . You know so great . What do you think of this ?
Emeal ZwayneMy perspective is this I have no problem befriending a homosexual couple that don't know the Lord . They're not related to me and I've entered their lives and my . My attempt is to seek to reach them for the gospel . I'm not going to their wedding , I'm not pretending like they're married , but I'm just . I want to reach them for the gospel . I think it's a different scenario when it's your own Family members and children .
Emeal ZwayneSo , which means like , okay , because we have the perspective of I want to reach this person for the gospel , right , but my let's say , god forbid , one of my sons . Hey , dad , I have a boyfriend now , so I don't feel comfortable to ever enter into a relationship with that person . That they have now to normalize it . It's like , okay , bring them around , let's meet them . But I'm not . I just feel like saying , hey , that can never have a connection with our family , so I'm not gonna . It's not gonna be . You guys are gonna come and hang out . It's not gonna be . You're gonna come to family events together and just hang out and we're gonna pretend like it's normal . I don't feel right about what ?
Mark Spenceabout your neighbor , your two neighbors across the street and you're having a barbecue and you're getting no different people and they come over for the barbecue and they're holding hands . How do you do with that ? And you have your kids there . Yeah , that's a good question . Is it different if they , if you have your kids there , or if you don't have your kids there ?
Emeal ZwayneWell , I think , okay , look , in our society , there comes a time where we have to start , like , obviously Equipping our kids for this and letting them know these are the sorts of things that are gonna happen .
Mark SpenceTotally it's different when it's an occasional , like you're gonna see a neighbor or whatever Versus your family and at all events , and coming over all the time , and so I don't know , right , I mean Oscar , has Oscar test told us that he's got a couple neighbors that are very outgoing it's like everybody in the neighborhood , if I remember correctly , really likes this couple and they're kind of winning the neighborhood over through their charisma , mm-hmm yeah .
Oscar NavarroYeah , we see , we see them interact with them . Often We've also trained look our kids , I think . I think before the last 20 years we acted as though Christians living in a Judeo-Christian culture got to approach culture as chaplains , defend orthodoxy like we understood culture as Judeo-Christian . So we acted as chaplains towards culture . But we are no longer in a Judeo-Christian culture . We are in Babylon . In Babylon , we don't act like chaplains , we act like missionaries , and so in my context , in my perspective , I do not expect my neighbors to act like Christians . Right , that would be foolish of me , absolutely .
Oscar NavarroBut , I also do not raise my children pretending like they are living in a Christian society . So my children are well aware of the context that they are growing up in . They are well aware of how we treat our neighbors who are in the LGBTQ community .
Oscar NavarroWe treat them with love and compassion , but we also lovingly disagree with them , and so , yeah , I just think in general when it comes to raising , because you brought up like having your kids there , man , if you're not telling your kids about the LGBTQ community , like you're setting yourself up for failure .
Emeal ZwayneOh , of course we have to . And you know our kids , of course they fully understand it , know it , they've interacted with people in a loving way in that regard . But I think there's a fine line where exposure at a young age with people that are admired and that are charismatic , and can we just have to be careful , you know , I mean , Ray , what do we do , seriously , when I Ray like Every time you come to me , I think he's trying to hide , I know , and then Ray keeps getting rescued .
Oscar NavarroHe's literally Mark . Mark , You're rivelling up , Okay .
Ray ComfortMark , Mark , I have your back .
Emeal ZwayneOkay . But seriously though , like again we're talking about drawing things out Like remember that plus and the LGBTQ plus man , it's got so many other things associated with it , so your neighbor is a furry . Okay , what A furry Remember we talked about the furries .
Ray ComfortWe did an episode on these .
Emeal ZwayneThat they they claim to be animals . Okay , okay , no , but seriously . So he's a furry and he wants to come over with his partner , who's dressed up like let's say his name is Mark Spence . Yeah , he's a furry and and his partner is a normal person , but they want to come over and he wants to come over on a leash , dressed like a dog . You know what I'm saying ? Or your child wants . I'm just saying like there comes a point where you look and you say you have to say that's that's not- .
Ray ComfortNo , it's just a little sign that said COVID's back , and I put it in the front of the house that takes care of it all .
Oscar NavarroI think the balance for me to get into the detail easy is if somebody comes over to my house who are , I know , are not married and they're living together , I don't look at them and go oh , you're having perma-metal sex , you can't have a barbecue with me .
Mark SpenceYeah .
Oscar NavarroHowever , if they're participating in sin in my backyard , I feel very comfortable asking them to leave .
Ray ComfortSo what's sin in the backyard Holding hands kissing ?
Emeal ZwayneWell , yeah , yeah , because , oscar . The difference is , though . The difference between that is , you can have a heterosexual couple , that may be fornicating and private , but that's not . It's not detected or known or sensed right . But if you have two men in your home and they're holding hands and being showing PDA in front of your kids , that's an advertisement , that the whole scenario is wrong .
Oscar NavarroI get that , and that is the space where I feel comfortable saying , hey , that's where you draw the line .
Oscar NavarroYeah , I mean I actually , as a prime example , we I had a family member who's going to stay the night with us and we were actually on vacation together . They came up to our cabin and they wanted to bring their boyfriend and we were like , hey , we'd love to meet him and get to know him . But , just so that it's clear , like we don't feel comfortable you sleeping in the same bed or even in the same room , in that matter . But man , we're really excited that he's because I've never met the guy , I barely know him . I mean , why wouldn't I want him around ? I want to be able to get to know him and preach the gospel to him .
Oscar NavarroWe're going to be spending three days together and they decided not to come because I asked them not to sleep in the same bed and those and those are the , those are the prices we , we should be willing to pay .
Emeal ZwayneRight In terms of Mark , social interaction . There are people that are going to cut us off as friends or family . You don't ever want to talk to us again , but I mean , we have to remember scripture has principle in terms of like believers , for example , to to not associate with one , to give them over to Satan right to excommunicate them . We would think that's a logical you got to keep them around so you can influence them . But there are principles that apply to hey , we're not going to accept this and maybe there's , there will be a sense ultimately , and this crosses over into even our children , who are in that lifestyle to where they realize , wow , I can't live comfortably in this . This is wrong and and those who love me have drawn a line , don't you think ?
Mark SpenceOh , that's it Right , I mean things . Things may seem to be getting a little bit crazier to make decisions , but it really is not that complicated , and we must always remember to seek wisdom . You know , there's wisdom in the multitude of counselors . We're not looking to get somebody to agree with us . We're looking to surround ourselves with godly men and women who are running the same race , people that we want to emulate , perhaps , and unashamedly . Make your decision and remember , when you make your decision , make sure that your , your voice is seasoned with soul , that you are respectful , that you do connect with them on any level that you possibly can . And we have a fly in here . How is that possible ? It's possible .
Oscar NavarroThat was like at the same time .
Ray ComfortI want to .
Oscar NavarroI know we're coming to a close . Yeah , we got to wrap up Before you say this .
Ray Comfortcould I just say something ? We've got a member of our staff that's very close to us , that's been fighting this dilemma for years . Yeah , I don't want to mention them , but what we're talking about is very relevant .
Oscar NavarroWell , I mean , I'm living in it . I have neighbors who are part of the LGBT community . I have a family who's non-family member , that's non-binary One of my closest friends . Two of their kids are a part of the LGBT community , and so I'm . I'm also living it and and my you know I take a lot from Rosario Butterfield . What she said is show hospitality , don't play down sin and preach the gospel . And there are some people that are going to I'm . I'm worried for the day that I am told I'm not welcome in some of my friends and family members homes anymore , and if and if that happens , the thing that Ray had a fly on Mark's head .
Emeal ZwayneSorry , just so listeners have context .
Ray ComfortIs there really a fly there ? No , no , no no , sorry Oscar .
Emeal ZwayneThat was a really important point .
Oscar NavarroKeep going , sorry I love these people in my life Sincerely . I love them , I love spending time with them . I pray for them often , and if there is a day that they tell me I'm not welcome in their home anymore , I will mourn that day , but I will find comfort in knowing that the part of me they are rejecting is the part that's in Christ . Oh man , that that'll be my comfort in that moment . I don't want that to happen , but if it does , that's where I'll find comfort .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , and again , I hope that the major consolation to us comes in the form of us having the testimony that we did it in love . We were compassionate , we were gentle , we were tender Friends . Scripture is clear on these lifestyles . I mean , you know Romans 1 , 24 to 26 , and I'm giving you these to check out on your own time 1 Corinthians 6 , 9 , race-sided it earlier . 1 Timothy 1 , 9 to 11 . Look at those things , Examine what scripture has to say on the reality of homosexuality and things related to it , and walk in love right .
Ray ComfortMatthew 5 , 10 , 11, . Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness . Yeah , and that's what we're talking about . We're making a stand for righteousness , for theirs is the kingdom of heaven . Blessed are those . Blessed are you when men insult you , persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me . And it's because we love the Lord that we make this stand . Yeah , and Jesus divides .
Emeal ZwayneWe can never forget that he brings a sword and there will ultimately be division and it's going to be over him and everything related to him and what he says and what he teaches . So I think you know we've thrown out different perspectives , different thoughts . Friends , those of you listening , I love what Mark said in a multitude of counselors is wisdom and their safety there , and so so seek that out , seek God in prayer , examine the word , glean from other believers , but whatever you do , compose yourself in a way that says I'm willing to lay my life down for you . Let that come through the way you interact with people . I consider you more important than myself . All of this comes out of a deep well of love , because I care for you and I would say , for those that are close family members , children and relatives . It is unique , it's different and you have to navigate that with wisdom , but I think you got to make sure that love is shining clearly . Amen , all right , friends .
Emeal ZwayneThat concludes this episode . We hope it has stirred your heart and soul and provoked you to seek
God . On the matter , Don't forget to check out the Gospel of John Million , the vault , where you get a hundred of them in there Living Waters , mug , the evidence , study Bible , all livingwaterscom . Send in your comments to podcasts at livingwaterscom and your thoughts . Don't forget to give us that rating and remember to join us again , boy , we've got a lot of these . Now , guys , we're getting close to 200 . Unbelievable , as always .
Emeal ZwayneThank you for joining us , we'll see you here , next time on the Living Waters podcast , where we have no idea . That was a week . Let me try that again . Podcast , still a week . I give up . You're losing his touch . Very evident that we have no idea what we're doing .