Ministerial Burnout and Ray Comfort's Pastor

Bruce Garner 1:04

I have seen my entire life , literally from childhood , every way to burn out and blow up in ministry Pastors and missionaries who were once in our home . I ask about them . Oh , he's out of ministry , he had an affair , he ran off with the money , everything up to including suicide , sadly every kind of ministerial attrition and tragedy . And I've been a pastor or a missionary myself because we went to Mexico . We were career missionaries ourselves in Mexico where I grew up for seven years before returning to our church in Huntington Beach and I just saw the toll it took around me and , just as importantly , I felt how the pressure and the relentlessness of ministry if you engage with people . I could feel what it was doing to me . So I quite literally wrote the book in self defense .

Emeal Zwane 1:58

This may be the first of its kind friends . Not many would dare do such a thing on a podcast and in front of the whole world , but we here at the Living Waters podcast are filled with love , care , kindness , wisdom , courage , handsomeness and humble modesty . You've heard us mention his name many times before , but today you'll get to finally meet him . We have with us Ray Comfort's pastor Bruce Garner , but the big buildup is related to why we are actually having him on today . This , friends , is somewhat of an intervention slash church discipline matter . Ray Comfort , you're making me nervous .

Ray Comfort 2:38

Did you ?

Emeal Zwane 2:39

or did you not recently fully unbutton your shirt in public while riding your bike ? I had to .

Ray Comfort 2:46

It was 90 something degrees , pastor Bruce .

Emeal Zwane 2:49

Life saving measures . World renowned evangelist riding on a bike , with a Living Waters hat , with a shirt unbuttoned .

Ray Comfort 2:59

Yeah , but my chest is so hairy it just looks like I'm wearing a jacket . Oh , the Lord's adorned it . Is there three or four hairs there now ?

Emeal Zwane 3:06

Ray , you justify it because you have Lucy in front of you . Yeah , she's my dog's in front of me and it just looks like I'm gonna .

Ray Comfort 3:12

Yeah , she's catching all the attention in there .

Emeal Zwane 3:13

Yeah , so that's right . Lucy's not wearing a shirt , so no , no , she's fully clothed . You know , ray , I think I would take the unbuttoned shirt over the half shirt you used to wear . I used to wear half a shirt , the shirt you had cut off .

Ray Comfort 3:23

No , no , no , I grew that shirt . That's what it was .

Emeal Zwane 3:29

Oh , friends , as you can tell , we're gonna have a lot of fun here today . Bruce , great to have you with us , great to be here , thank you .

Bruce Garner 3:34

Yeah .

Mark Spence 3:36

Bruce , which one of us have known you the longest ? I believe that would be you , Mark . That would be me by far . That would be Mark .

Emeal Zwane 3:42

Well , we're gonna get into that and a lot more frowns , but before that we have a comment . This is from Matt Glee , my favorite podcast . I've been listening to the podcast for years and have gone through many different shows over that time . Usually , around the six month mark , I move on to a new show , but not so with Living Waters . After a year of listening sorry it took me so long to write a review Living Waters remains my favorite podcast . In fact , my love of listening to these men has only increased over that time . I think they have their own podcast .

Ray Comfort 4:15

There you go . Did you sign that ? Mark Must be yeah .

Emeal Zwane 4:19

I'm sorry it said I've been listening to podcasts .

Bruce Garner 4:21

Yes , the end of the podcast .

Emeal Zwane 4:23

Yeah , that clears that . That makes sense . And , friends , before we jump in here , usually we talk about a bunch of resources . Today there's only one Uno . You'll know why that is fitting that . I said it in Spanish . The Resilient Pastor on Amazon . Is that the best place to get it , bruce , it is , yeah , amazoncom .

Ray Comfort 4:43

It will be available wherever good books are sold .

Emeal Zwane 4:45

Yeah , good books . So few brick and mortar bookstores anymore .

Ray Comfort 4:51

Well , I'm still in the place . I'm sorry for the brick and mortar people that hear us just say Amazon the giant . Yeah .

Emeal Zwane 4:57

All right , friends . As you heard , we have Bruce Garner here with us today , Ray Comfort's pastor man . We've mentioned that so many times on the podcast .

Ray Comfort 5:06

I am going to embarrass Bruce horribly today .

Mark Spence 5:09

Oh wow , impossible , Impossible , impossible .

Ray Comfort 5:13

I so love listening to him and I am brought to tears regularly as I hear his godly eloquence . It's just so neat to listen to you teach . Very kind to say yeah .

Bruce Garner 5:23

Bruce , why do you not use ?

Mark Spence 5:24

notes .

Bruce Garner 5:25

Yeah .

Emeal Zwane 5:26

See , you put a game .

Bruce Garner 5:27

You know , the one time I used a lot of notes was in a seminary preaching class because they said I had to and about 2 thirds of the way it was so terrible I gave up and walked away from the podium and the professor wrote a note and said the first two thirds were terrible . The last third was good , do that . So I just stuck with it .

Mark Spence 5:46

Was that during the third , where you walked out , when I walked away from the podium ?

Bruce Garner 5:51

that was when he said it was acceptable .

Ray Comfort 5:52

Everything up to that point had been terrible . And he sent you a note .

Bruce Garner 5:57

Oh yeah , these seminary prophets are pretty brutal . They'll tell you in writing so you can be haunted by it for years exactly what you're doing he made me use notes and it was a disaster .

Ray Comfort 6:07

Yeah , there's something liberating walking away from your notes , though I think easy . Me and my . We use notes , we use stepping stones because we know our fallibility , but it's something wonderful walking away from them for about 10 minutes .

Emeal Zwane 6:21

Oh yeah , just feel free . Well , you connect with the people , yeah , and there's something magical that happens with that . But , bruce , do you at least have any kind of outline in terms of notes at the pulpit ? What is it in your mind ?

Bruce Garner 6:31

We generally provide a half sheet in the bulletin . I have that in front of me so that I can remember what the congregation has for a power run of them , so that I can keep track of the slides that are behind me and I might all write three or four words regarding my introduction . If I have a particular illustration or story , I'll write three or four words somewhere in my own handwriting on that note . But that's about it .

Ray Comfort 6:58

And your anecdotes are fabulous , thank you . And even the little touch of humor every three minutes . It's like , I think , spurgeon called humor and sermon like lightning on a dark night . You just go ooh , and then you wait for the next one .

Bruce Garner 7:11

Oh good , it keeps you going and it's great .

Ray Comfort 7:13

I love it .

Bruce Garner 7:14

Humor can be a little tricky , because if all they remembers the joke , then you failed , right , that's a lot of memory . But if the joke helps people lower their defenses , reengage their listening so that they can get the biblical point , the biblical idea , then it's worthwhile .

Emeal Zwane 7:28

Yeah , so hopefully that's what's happening most of the time . Do you do thorough notes , though , before you go to the pulpit that you review and look at , or is it just you just log it in your mind as you ?

Ray Comfort 7:36

go Pretty much . It's all in the brain .

Emeal Zwane 7:37

Wow , that's pretty amazing . All right back to how we all know each other . So obviously you're a race pastor , but before that you knew more expense I did .

Mark Spence 7:47

Now back in 1990 , what were you at that point ? Were you a ? Missionary pastor , but what I'm trying to remember exactly .

Bruce Garner 7:54

First of all , this is a country and we have a constitution and laws and rights Sounding like an interrogation , so I'd like to reserve the right to call for an attorney at any moment . In the 90s , I was on staff at the church . I now pastor , and I think you and I first started noticing each other in the world because I was , briefly and unsuccessfully , a college pastor at that same church , unsuccessful .

Bruce Garner 8:19

And so Fred was before you , one of my best friends called my college group , which grew to be pretty large , but he called it the church at Corinth if that gives you any idea of how it was going .

Mark Spence 8:29

This is where we met Dennis Eastman . Dennis Eastman came into the picture .

Bruce Garner 8:32

It was Dennis Eastman , that called it . As long as the name's out it was Dennis . Eastman . That would say how are things at the church at Corinth ? Again , that haunts me . I wrote the book for a reason .

Mark Spence 8:42

I'm traumatized , I'm working it out . Well , listen , you baptized my wife back on October 23 , 1994 , which was a Sunday Amazing .

Bruce Garner 8:52

That would have been two years out of Bible college for me , two years into seminary Wow .

Emeal Zwane 8:57

So , bruce , you suffer for the Lord as you pastor in Huntington Beach .

Bruce Garner 9:02

Yes , somebody has to take that pain on the Lord's behalf . So under the Lord's order , yeah .

Emeal Zwane 9:08

And you've been doing that for a while . But tell us a little bit about your background , because now normally obviously Oscar Navarro's with us here . Oscar is the least Mexican , mexican person I know .

Ray Comfort 9:19

What about Eddie ?

Emeal Zwane 9:20

Roman and Eddie , of course , but you're the most Mexican , non-Mexican person I know . Right and it's a trip because you're as white as snow , but when you spit Spanish man it's like reban , no sé por qué , para que no va a vivir .

Bruce Garner 9:35

It's fun to live in Southern California and look the way I do and speak Spanish . Well , you must hear people talking about you . Oh , all the time , me , me , me , me , me , me , me , and I acknowledge it on my way out the door In Spanish , saying that you've all been very kind , thank you .

Ray Comfort 9:50

See you next week . And you all hit the ground and sometimes they scream .

Bruce Garner 9:53

Sometimes they literally scream .

Ray Comfort 9:54

What .

Bruce Garner 9:55

Oh no , he speaks Spanish guys , it's a good time .

Emeal Zwane 9:58

Wow , yeah , so tell us a little bit about the background

Ministry Challenges and Perspectives

Emeal Zwane 10:02

and how that all happened .

Bruce Garner 10:02

Sure , my parents have been missionaries in Mexico several places in Mexico , but most of their lives in Chihuahua , mexico , since 1971 . I was not born in Mexico , but I was raised there , so so , yeah , there is a switch inside of me that that can flip and I just become a a Norteño , a Mexican from from Chihuahua .

Emeal Zwane 10:25

How do you say that again , norteño , norteño , no , no , no , this is not Norteño . No , no , no , norteño .

Bruce Garner 10:30

Fun fact because you know , add is a cruel mistress . Norteño music that's the umpa with the with the accordion .

Ray Comfort 10:37

Uh-huh .

Mark Spence 10:38

Oh , yeah , and the tuba , and you put it .

Bruce Garner 10:40

That is an import . That is called Northern Norteño music , northern music in Mexico because German settlers brought that in . That's a polka .

Ray Comfort 10:49

Oh well , the locals have a doc , so is that the name ?

Bruce Garner 10:51

Absolutely not .

Emeal Zwane 10:53

Actually actually don't care for it . Is that the Mariachi sounding stuff ?

Bruce Garner 10:57

No , no , that's , that's central Mexico . I'm talking about the guys . They literally have an accordion and a tuba , yeah , and you hear very nasal singing , as my pastor used to say , from the heart through the nose and an accordion and a tuba .

Mark Spence 11:09

No , what does that sound like ? I don't want to do it . I'm thinking of VeggieTales . Youtube is your friend , yeah .

Emeal Zwane 11:13

The VeggieTales when they come out on their accordion tuba .

Bruce Garner 11:16

Yes , it sounds like that , but here's the trippiest thing about it we are way off topic , as expected . What is typical in that culture is what we have here is gangster rap . They put cartel songs , including things that just happened last week ago . Massacres , I mean serious crimes .

Ray Comfort 11:35

They put that to that particular kind of music , terrible , and the whole thing said again in my personal experience .

Bruce Garner 11:43

I love a lot of Mexican music , just not the stuff I grew up .

Ray Comfort 11:45

Mariachi music makes me laugh .

Bruce Garner 11:47

It's just so joyous Even if it's midnight going on and on . Now mariachi music . I love .

Mark Spence 11:54

Would you play it in your car , just kind of prepping for a sermon , getting ready to I don't know about ?

Bruce Garner 11:58

prepping for a sermon . Can't get the emotional segue . Turn it into worship music ?

Emeal Zwane 12:03

Yeah , that would be tough . So , bruce , so you were in Mexico , you grew up .

Bruce Garner 12:07

Answer your question before my brain took me in a bad direction . My parents moved to Mexico to become career church planning missionaries when I was only two years old and , with the exception of second grade and seventh grade , that's where I was educated .

Emeal Zwane 12:23

So that's why I'm a public school there , private schools .

Bruce Garner 12:25

was not allowed to enroll in public schools because we were foreign immigrants , but private schools . I was almost always the only English speaker , the only American in my class .

Emeal Zwane 12:36

But you learned , I mean , and it was all in Spanish the education , I don't remember , not knowing Spanish , it was probably the quickest way of saying it Wow .

Bruce Garner 12:42

And when your name's Bruce Garner , because that doesn't translate very well , bruce , that's a problem .

Ray Comfort 12:48

So Bruce Garner , Bruce .

Bruce Garner 12:50

And yeah , it just it taught me to get along with people . Yeah , because if you're , you're the only kid that looks different from everybody else , Did you get beat up a lot ?

Ray Comfort 12:56

I was just gonna say were you bored ?

Bruce Garner 12:58

Yeah , I was intimidated and bullied a little bit , but again , that's where the you know God uses all kinds of strange things to make us who he wants us to be . And I learned to smile and make jokes and befriend people quickly so that they didn't turn on on the gringo and it was the craziest thing that happened and it was mostly in good fun In one particular elementary school for three years . Anytime the teacher left the room , which was crazy . You should never leave elementary children completely unsupervised .

Bruce Garner 13:27

Someone would scream World War III , and what that meant was the world versus the United States , with me as the United States sole representative and they would throw everything they could get their hands on .

Emeal Zwane 13:37

Are you serious ?

Bruce Garner 13:38

Absolutely , and I didn't you know what me , because it's World War , the world against the United .

Ray Comfort 13:43

States , so it was a fun thing I mean for them , yeah .

Bruce Garner 13:47

And I didn't mind it until they threw a compass and that .

Ray Comfort 13:50

I wasn't a huge fan of the comp Right between you . Yeah , you lost your direction . That's great .

Bruce Garner 13:57

So with that's your setting , you learn to make friends . Yeah , all right , russel . I stepped on a great dead joke by Rick Humphrey , by the way , and I'm sorry .

Emeal Zwane 14:04

So , okay , we want to jump into this book . I have to say I wish you weren't here so that it didn't seem like flattery , but this is a phenomenal book and I think I could say that from the standpoint that I pastored for six , seven years . Mark did as well , ray three and a half . We've all been through the same thing , yeah , yeah , and man , this is good .

Bruce Garner 14:25

Bruce , I really appreciate it .

Ray Comfort 14:27

There's a simplicity about it and anecdotal , and , yeah , you don't get tired of reading short chapters , which I love . Yeah and yeah . Easy as rye , it's phenomenal .

Emeal Zwane 14:36

It really fills a gap . You know , I think that there are a lot of books on a lot of different subjects . There are some for pastors , but I think what I really loved about it was the practicality of it . So give us a backstory . How'd this thing come together ?

Bruce Garner 14:50

Well , I'm three generations in church ministry . My grandfather was gloriously saved . One of the meanest , most profane sailors ever fight in World War II Was gloriously saved shortly after that . My father was the first born in a Christian home . His older sisters endured my grandpa for a little while before he got saved . My dad was saved , heard his father preaching about missions all the time and went to Mexico , took the Romans 116 seriously , took my mother . They had me and then we went to Mexico together . Well , they took me . I was two .

Ray Comfort 15:26

I didn't get , I was not consulted .

Emeal Zwane 15:27

I just woke up in Mexico , glorified luggage is what you call . Little kids like that I was a photo op .

Bruce Garner 15:34

I was a prayer card , a prayer card accessory .

Ray Comfort 15:38

The missionary's got to have prayer cards and you know it helps if you got a cute kid .

Bruce Garner 15:42

Don't do it for us , do it for the child , don't support us for our sake . But that means that , especially as an only child , I've been three generations in ministry and one of the burdens or blessings of being an only child is they take you everywhere and you sit with the grownups . So I've been hearing missionaries and pastors talk about ministry from an age so young that they probably didn't know I was understanding what was being said . So that means I have seen my entire life , literally from childhood , every way to burn out and blow up in ministry . Pastors and missionaries who were once in our home . I ask about them . Oh , he's out of ministry , he had an affair , he ran off with the money , everything up to including suicide , sadly , every kind of ministerial attrition and tragedy .

Bruce Garner 16:33

And I've been a pastor or a missionary myself because we went to Mexico . We were career missionaries ourselves in Mexico , where I grew up for seven years before returning to our church in Huntington Beach , and I just saw the toll it took around me . And , just as importantly , I felt how the pressure and the relentlessness of ministry if you engage with people . I could feel what it was doing to me . So I quite literally wrote the book in self-defense .

Emeal Zwane 17:00

Oh , wow . Well , you know there's a section in the book . I want to touch on that line in a moment , but I have to read this . You said I don't know exactly what happened to you , but if you've been pastoring for any length of time you've probably had some doubts about how long you can do this Quote . I feel like a guy who is driving over the speed limit on a narrow mountain road without barriers . It's the grace of God I haven't driven off . This is from , I think , bob Burns book . Yes , Wow , a lot of people , bruce , don't know pastors , go through this stuff , and you go on to say the pastor is not alone

Challenges and Burnout in Pastoral Ministry

Emeal Zwane 17:32

.

Emeal Zwane 17:32

My national survey of senior pastors indicated that about one in three of them are in deep trouble , with deep damage to themselves , their families and even their relationship with God . When you can't see forward , try looking back instead . If you fear that God may have sent you into ministry and then abandoned you in the midst of it , look back at his faithfulness before trying to figure out the way forward . A grateful look back kept me on my own narrow mountain road as a very young and lonely pastor , and it's kept me on the road several times since . Is that what you're referring to , bruce ?

Bruce Garner 18:03

Yes , sir About . There were several influences . One just a lifetime of ministry and watching people that I thought were solid as I started to preach preachers who were more effective preachers than I am , who seemed to have a deeper life with God and know the Lord far better than I did go by the wayside , be taken out by scandal and more than that . The big problems always get most of the attention , but I would say that for every pastor or missionary or even Christian worker you don't have to be on a pastoral staff . If you're seriously committed to your church and you're working with people , because people are going to be the number one burnout factor You're going to suffer through this For every one of them . That has some spectacular newsmaking moral failure . There's a hundred , maybe even a thousand , that are bitter , and these are the guys that preach because they have to fully . A third of the senior pastors in my national survey said things that would be alarming in the life of any Christian , such as they love the Lord less since they became a pastor Because of the way the pastorate has gone for them . They don't desire a closer walk with the Lord . Their family wants them to leave the ministry . They would do anything else if they thought they could replace their income . So that seeing that jadedness and that burnout was always notable to me .

Bruce Garner 19:24

And about 10 years ago I started volunteering as a law enforcement chaplain and my son my older son started his journey toward the career he's now enjoying as an infantry officer . And as I started spending time with police officers and getting to know a few soldiers , I noticed that some were resilient and happy and thriving and peaceful , and others were burned out to the point of being broken and even dangerous . So my research question was is there anything ? God is sovereign , but is there anything under our control , that he's given into our hands that we need to address , that we can control to make sure that we stay the course for life ? Is there something we can do ? That was the question that I asked . That's what led to the dissertation and from the dissertation , the academic dissertation . The result was this book .

Emeal Zwane 20:14

This was for your doctorate degree , correct ? I'm going to say this quick and then , ray , I want you to chime in on something you know friends , I know you're listening to this now and we do have a number of pastors that obviously listen to us , but the overwhelming majority are not but friends . This is extremely relevant to you because you need to stand in support of your pastor , and knowing what your pastor goes through , knowing that the struggles , the challenges , the hardship , the discouragement , can equip you to know how to pray for them and how to be that encouragement and how to be that faithful church member that will help them along the way .

Bruce Garner 20:45

Right and to be clear , especially for you , if you're a pastor listening to this , if I'm anywhere near the truth , you already know that I'm telling you things that are true to you for the vast majority of people who are just good , sincere Christians and lay people in the church . There's a mistake that can be made when we talk about this topic and there's a ditch on either side of the road . One is to say this is the pastoring is the hardest work in the world . Everybody burns out , everybody's on the verge of death and that creates a lot of false , ungodly pity on behalf of pastors . That's not at all what we're pleading for here . We are pleading and asking and hoping that the book will lead you to an understanding of what vocational ministry is actually like , because there's a ditch on either side of the road .

Bruce Garner 21:33

One is my dad used to joke what a job . We work one day a week and it's a split shift . Get to the church probably seven , eight in the morning . You're done by noon , go eat . Everybody told you you did a great job with the sermon and then you reset and have basically six and a half days to come up with that one sermon . And again , a lot of people . I've been asked many , many times what else do I do for work ?

Bruce Garner 21:56

And I've had a few people ask me really that like you find enough things to do during the week . And my answer is most weeks , not every week , but usually I can find enough to do .

Emeal Zwane 22:06

Oh man , yeah , there is a lot of misunderstanding . You know , Ray , a lot of people don't know that you actually pastored , as I mentioned earlier , for three and a half years and they don't recognize there are challenges involved with pastoring .

Ray Comfort 22:17

Yeah , as you said , three and a half years the time of tribulation . I learned to empathize with pastors and I hated every minute because it didn't like counseling people . And I've often said that I'm not a shepherd . If someone brings me a sheep , that's lame . I want to stand on your own feet and go and reproduce Because I'm a pastor

The Resilient Pastor and Ministry Challenges

Ray Comfort 22:34

by nature . And so that three and a half years I did was a very good grounding , because I've been trusted with so many pulpits and I so appreciate the fact that a pastor trusts me of this pulpit . It's like giving your car keys to a stranger sitting in the back with your family and saying please stand the right side of the road . And I love what John Wesley said about pastoring . He said if he had to preach to the same people every week he'd send them and himself crazy .

Ray Comfort 22:58

And that's how I feel to come up with a fresh sermon each week , because if you say the same joke twice , you're senile , right , he's losing it . I heard that last week .

Mark Spence 23:06

He's gone .

Ray Comfort 23:07

And so it's . And then you've got the counseling , you've got church splits , you've got financial problems , building problems , all these sort of things . So I so empathize . When I get into a pulpit of a pastor I say thank you for trusting me . Yeah .

Bruce Garner 23:19

Right , I'm just a very quick response . First of all , you're extremely trustworthy in any Bible preaching pulpit , right , and your love for me , for my family , for our church , that comes right through . And those of you who are listening who may not think of the local church side of very comfort . He's a churchman . He's not often in specialized ministries like the one you do so well here . There's a disconnect from the local church and that is not the case at Living Waters , which is one reason I'm so thrilled to partner with it to support it and promote it however we can . You guys are your church people and that is , after all , what Jesus promised to build . But he does it through all the gifts the pastor , the teacher , the evangelist , the counselor we're all needed . This book just has the heart of the one who has been entrusted to the care , with the care and the leadership of a local congregation . Right , those people are my heart and my concerns .

Bruce Garner 24:16

What's the name of the book , again the Resilient Pastor and the subtitle is how to Remain Effective and Finish Well in Ministry , and I should say , writing a book on being a resilient , healthy pastor while you're still pastoring is the second dumbest thing anybody could do .

Emeal Zwane 24:33

Yeah , the first is a book on humility .

Bruce Garner 24:35

The first is a book on humility . Absolutely right , yeah . And you know When's yours to come out , by the way .

Emeal Zwane 24:40

Humility . Now I attained it , you know , bruce . Thank you for your kind words and I do need to mention as well friends , bruce serves on the board of our ministry , which is such a joy for us because he's also raised pastor and there's just great accountability there and I believe in this ministry with all my heart . I really do and brother it's shown in your support and your service on the board . The wisdom and guidance you've helped give us has been phenomenal . Really appreciate it .

Emeal Zwane 25:03

You know , mark , you and I served together in pastoral ministry and we travel a lot . Now we get to preach the same sermons in different churches with new audiences , like Ray said , with our cheesy jokes , and people still laugh . But we experienced those challenges as well . I mean , there's a lot of pressure that people don't realize is real for the past , to where someone to quit , and it's intense .

Mark Spence 25:26

Yeah , you know Bruce had brought something to me several years ago . I had sent him a list of accountability questions I don't know if you remember that and you added questions that were geared towards the ministry minded individual , which included entitlement that a pastor after some time is going to be feeling some entitlement . I think it was John Piper who said that the pastor will fill an entitlement within the sexual realm and he will view porn more often on a Monday morning or even between services as a place of release of something which absolutely blows my mind . Sure . And he said he stopped asking his students have you ever looked at porn ? To ask him the question when was the last time you looked at porn ? And that falls also in the realm of entitlement . Absolutely insane . When we begin to head down that realm , I'd like you , if you can , for just maybe a moment , expand on that . And why is that so important ? To hit that right at its core .

Bruce Garner 26:23

For those who may be listening , who are ministry leaders , I'm going to say something that's going to sound hard and I don't mean it to be . It's just . It's simple biblical truth . But it's not meant to wound but to help you think through the spiral you might already be starting . At the root of all these things and all sin , of course , is pride , and there's so many different pressures in ministry . Most pastors I serve a wonderful , healthy , happy congregation that loves me and the rest of our pastoral staff . We're in a very sweet spot right now . It's taken quite a while to get there . The Lord's been very , very kind and we are in a sweet spot right now . So I'm not speaking of myself , but I'm speaking of , again , a lifetime of three generations of stories . Many pastors are undercompensated . They literally struggle to make ends meet . They are overworked . Most pastors in America are solo pastors . Many pastors in America are bivocational pastors . In other words , they're working a secular job to pay the bills and getting what amounts to a stipend .

Bruce Garner 27:30

Many pastors often are misunderstood as well , because then it's not the people's fault . Nobody knows what anybody else does for a living and what it's like , until they try to do it themselves . So that constant misunderstanding , financial pressure . Most of us like to be liked , would you agree ? Many people in ministry want to love and serve people and it's a very small , subtle step between loving and wanting to serve people and wanting people to like you . If , deep in your heart , if you really want and need to be liked , the drip , drip , drip of criticism that is just a normal part of working in the local church and working with people , that'll tear your heart out .

Bruce Garner 28:13

So you put all of those things together and maybe the pastor's wife is going through her own struggles . She's discontented . One of the kids is rebellious . The mindset very quickly turns to these people have no idea what I go through . They have no idea what sacrifices I make . Therefore , I am going to self-medicate . I'm going to practice some ungodly self-care by helping myself to the money . I'm going to find comfort in a woman in the congregation which constitutes abuse of his spiritual authority and leadership over her .

Bruce Garner 28:53

It's an enticing invitation laid by the world , the flesh and the devil to tell the pastor a biblical truth you matter and you need to find comfort . And then directing him to the exact wrong resources resources of his own , devising , manipulation of his own efforts to find comfort in himself , whatever that may be . So that entitlement when ministry is difficult and you don't feel like things are right , you feel like things are going the way you thought they should , you don't think you're getting what you deserve . Fully a third of the pastors in my survey said plainly I asked very pointed , anonymous questions because I wanted them to tell me the truth Fully a third of them feel like they deserve more than they're getting .

Bruce Garner 29:34

Well , if you sincerely believe that , you need to take that to the Lord and to godly trusted people . But if you don't do those things , if you don't take it to the Lord , you don't take it to godly trusted people that pressure is going to manifest itself somewhere . Thankfully , it's usually just bitterness and jadedness and quitting . Often it's no , I'm going to stay here and make this a good thing for myself , and that's how pastors end up in prison . That's how pastors end up in the newspaper scandal accusations of shenanigans with the money all that pressure , unless it's given to Christ , is going to go somewhere and do something destructive .

Bruce Garner 30:11

Wow , you know .

Emeal Zwane 30:12

Bruce , in the book you quoted , Paul Trep in one of my absolute favorite books , dangerous Calling .

Ray Comfort 30:18

Mark and .

Emeal Zwane 30:18

I had read that together a long time ago , and you talked about how one day , in the midst of frustration and a disagreement with his wife , he said to her 95% of the women in our church would give anything to be married to me . What could be married to me ? And what did she ?

Bruce Garner 30:32

say Bruce ? She said well , I'm in the 5% .

Mark Spence 30:37

And the footnote .

Bruce Garner 30:38

That's one of the footnotes in the book . There is no recovery from that kind of that reminds me .

Mark Spence 30:42

I think it was From that kind of reply from your wife ? Did you ask Cherise the question ? I don't think we have a lot in common . Oh no , how'd that work out ?

Bruce Garner 30:52

This is unrelated , but actually no , it's not unrelated because this goes to pride . Okay , I thought it would be romantic to give my wife books that she would enjoy reading . These are not books that I would enjoy , because we have very different taste in reading . These are books that I thought she would like and I didn't want to spend a lot of money on it because I knew I was going to be wrong .

Ray Comfort 31:12

pretty often , so I went to the Huntington .

Bruce Garner 31:13

Beach Public Library and I got a book and she very politely she's a very sweet godly woman she said no , thank you , I'm happy with what I'm reading . And I brought a second book and she said the same the third time . I brought six books . I thought shotgun approach one of these . I spread them all out and she again very sweetly and politely said thank you , honey , but this is so sweet that you keep doing this , but I'm reading . You know , I've got those three books over there and they're very good , thank you .

Ray Comfort 31:41

And it hurt my feelings .

Bruce Garner 31:42

Okay , Did you ever get your feelings hurt ? It happened to me that one time I got my feelings hurt and what I said was well , Sharice , we just like different things . There's the prize . I don't know if you can hear it . Oh yeah , I'm right , you're wrong . Right , I'm on a whole other level , and that's my real and her response , and her response was we both love you , and Mrs Garner might actually have out punched Mrs Trev with that one .

Emeal Zwane 32:10

Yeah , that is pretty good , that's a neck and neck race on pastors being cut down to size .

Bruce Garner 32:16

I've never met Trip , but I'm feeling good company with him based on what he said to his wife and what my wife said back to me oh , that's golden man .

Emeal Zwane 32:24

I'm going to put that in my quotes

Challenges and Temptations in Ministry

Emeal Zwane 32:26

list .

Ray Comfort 32:26

I was reading in your book about the Texas Funeral Parlor thing .

Bruce Garner 32:31

Was that ?

Ray Comfort 32:31

you that was involved in that .

Bruce Garner 32:33

No , no , that was a family friend who's still pastoring , who show remain nameless . But I'd grown up , that's one of the stories I'd grown up with . But as part of my research I called him and had him tell me the story . Every bit of it is true .

Mark Spence 32:46

Wait , you got to share the story . Yeah , you should . Nobody knows that .

Bruce Garner 32:50

Yeah , fair enough . Sorry , friends , All the world has not yet had time to read this book . A past friend of mine in Texas because of course it had to happen in Texas was officiating a funeral , and right before the funeral started he was officiating funeral of a godly older lady in his church who had finally gone to be with the Lord , and a man in the reception not the reception line , but he's greeting people as you tend to do right before the service starts and the woman's son comes up to him and angrily curses at him , says I hate you and everything you stand for . I don't believe a word you're about to say . I don't want you to do my mother's funeral . And he says buddy , I'm sorry , it's her dying wish we're here , your whole family's here . We got to go through this .

Bruce Garner 33:35

So he started and the young man continued himself with being loudly disrespectful during the entire service , including dropping some very loud obscenities in the middle of the pastor sermon . To the point , the pastor stopped and said please , son , out of respect I know you don't like me , but your deceased mother is right here Just out of respect for her , can you keep it together for five more minutes ? Well , when the finally man was said . Family tensions were revealed . A angry family member jumped up , raced across the chapel and punched that kid square in the face . Blood went everywhere and then apparently this had been a long simmering family disagreement . The extended family chose sides and a basically a old-scale WWF , wwf , old Western movie . They fought each other to the point that the Houston Police Department had to come out .

Emeal Zwane 34:29

Oh man .

Bruce Garner 34:30

Separate people take people into custody . It was wild and the point of that was you never know what you're gonna get in ministry . You think you're just gonna preach the gospel and try to comfort the grieving . You might end up in a brawl .

Ray Comfort 34:41

And that was before cell phones and videos and YouTube . Unfortunately , you don't have the footage that would have made the top ten .

Bruce Garner 34:47

That'd be viral . That'd have nine million views .

Emeal Zwane 34:49

You know , bruce , on page 21 you said the moment the ministry becomes about the minister , a course is set for disaster . Steer clear , pastor . A lot of leaders have shipwrecked on the deadly reef of self connected to what we were talking about . You know , I've shared this before on the podcast , but when I was a new believer , I had become a , you know , a part of a church youth group . I was , I was barely 16 and it felt really good because , you know , I had this testimony , I was a gangster and all this crazy stuff , and so I was the head of the youth group .

Emeal Zwane 35:19

Everyone's paying attention to me and I'm feeling all this acceptance and love and sure , over time I became old news , new kids came and you know how that goes . And so one day I came up to my youth pastor . I go , hey , hey , you know , I just want to let you know I'm gonna be leaving the church , and it was , oh really , why I go . Well , you know , I'm just , I'm just really not feeling the love anymore . Oh , and he looked at me and he had sense that the Lord had a pastoral call in my life . And he looked at me . He goes . You know , he's at question for you One day , when you become a shepherd and you don't feel that love from your flock , are you going to leave them too ? Even as I say it right now , I'm feeling the daggers .

Emeal Zwane 35:54

And man , that was a . That was a real wake up call to me . I ended up staying , and it really was , you know , just eye opening . I realized how so self-focused I was . And , bruce , would you say , it's true that what a lot of pastors end up doing is they look to ministry as a source of supply for legitimate needs , rather than looking to the Lord as a source of supply , and and they fail to recognize that really , their congregation is a medium through which they have the opportunity to fulfill the two greatest commandments . That's it by loving God and all he's called them to be as a shepherd , and loving those people by by glad sacrifice and service of love .

Bruce Garner 36:31

I don't even know if I can answer that link , because that that was beautifully stated . I couldn't have said it better myself . There's this constant temptation to love the gift rather than the giver , and ministry's a gift . Paul says in 2 Corinthians that that he sustained himself because we have this ministry by the mercy of God . Ministry's a mercy . It's not only a calling and an obligation . Paul says it's a mercy . In other words , if you're in ministry , that is a gift of mercy to God from you . You didn't earn it , you have to be qualified for it , but even the qualifications come from him .

Bruce Garner 37:03

You know we're raised , very kind and encouraging regarding my preaching , but I'm keenly aware almost every week as I write the sermon since we talked about me not using notes that could be over later this afternoon I'm a brain event away from needing all the notes in the world or not even being able to speak at all , right . So when you , when you think about your own frailty compared to the immensity , the eternality , the sovereignty of God , how could I ever make it about me ? And I have same as every preacher in the world , right , sometimes as a preacher , well , maybe I'm special and especially sinful , but it's there's always a temptation to step back and admire your own work . Yeah , and preachers who are listening , you'll know some of us , in our insecurity , like to troll the lobby , hoping for somebody to say something nice , right , it's a bad . Bad , it's a bad habit , right .

Emeal Zwane 37:55

Yeah , what was it To ?

Bruce Garner 37:56

need that affirmation and that encouragement from people If they sincerely give it , thank them for it , praise the Lord for it . But if you , if you're fishing for it , if you need it to sustain you , you've . You've what you've said . You've moved a little bit away from your security and your identity in Christ . You're trying to derive things from the work and from the congregation that truly , only Christ can faithfully and always give you Amen .

Emeal Zwane 38:25

I think it was Ravenhill that said too often preachers become fishers of compliments for men rather than fishers of men . That's stinging because I can relate to that .

Bruce Garner 38:33

Absolutely right . And that entitlement piece , you know , making the minister , making the , the work about the minister rather than the ministry . That's so easy to do because you are the one doing the preaching , but through whose power ? I mean you couldn't . None of us literally would know how to learn language had God not given us the capacity to do so . He will one day , through illness or death , he will take that capacity away from us . We won't always be able to preach . I've . I remember when we first went to Mexico I heard my father said something to me that is now true for me , because we went to Mexico now 25 years ago and in talking about our , the work we were going to do together there in Mexico , my dad said son , I've preached more sermons than I'm going to preach , and that was kind of sobering as an only child to hear Okay , dad sang , he's past half time , he's in the third quarter .

Bruce Garner 39:23

Me too , I don't think it's the two minute warning yet . I don't think we're deep in the fourth quarter , but honestly I don't know . This literally could be and I'm not trying to be overly dramatic because preachers have a bad habit of that this podcast could be the last thing I do . It's happened to friends of mine . I've attended their services because the Lord took them home to me in an untimely . His timing is perfect . But from the earthly perspective , why him ? Why now ? That could be any one of us . So every day is a gift . Every day is an obligation and a responsibility before the Lord . If you can keep that in front of you , it keeps you from this deadly price .

Ray Comfort 39:57

Well , I didn't have a midlife crisis because I couldn't figure out when the middle of my life was .

Emeal Zwane 40:03

Bruce , I was really struck by that . Where you talked about in that chapter . We said everyone goes home and that , yeah , it all ends up ending .

Emeal Zwane 40:11

And yeah , you know , mark , I wanted to just touch on this with you . You know , I think the two important things that people fail to do , who are in ministry , whether pastors or ministry leaders , is self reflection and having accountability . You know , I've often said , when I ask the Lord to give me more of him and less of me , he shows me more of me , which makes me want less of me and more of him . And so speak to that , mark , the importance of just recognizing like Bruce talked about , you know , and Paul touched on right what do we have that we didn't receive ? And if we received it , why do we boast as if , though , we didn't Like it's somehow self created . So , self reflection , accountability .

Mark Spence 40:51

Well , self reflection is so necessary . As you guys know , that is something that is big on my agenda there on the daily . So when I go to get inside my car , I don't just leave to go about my business . I reflect back on what just happened . When I go up inside my office , I sit down or reflect upon what just happened down inside the studio . I want to continually think back on what went right , what went wrong . How do I make things better ? Right , how did I include the Lord ? How did I not include the Lord in the midst of that ? That is kind of the idea of a Sabbath , right , we look back on what happened and we look forward as to what's going to happen . It's very necessary . Jesus said to the disciples come aside and rest awhile . We all need to rest , we all need to reflect , we all need to have that forward thinking as to what is happening inside of our life . You mentioned the accountability . You know , ray and I we were talking about this the other day inside my office .

Mark Spence 41:40

You know what does a pastor do ? Where does a pastor go when he dibs into the benevolent fund ? Right , and the book Dangerous Calling ? We had touched upon that . We talked about this a little bit with Trip .

Mark Spence 41:51

Sometimes a pastor feels like he's an island onto himself . You know , I can't go to my associate or my assistant . You know the senior pastors . The leading pastor is just in a different place , he's on a different plateau . They're not going to fully understand what I'm going through .

Mark Spence 42:05

Well now , what do you do ? You go to other senior pastors , perhaps , or other trusted friends that are in other ministries ? Maybe it's a paratroop or organization . Where do you go ? What do you do because you're an island onto yourself ?

Mark Spence 42:16

Well , besides memorizing Psalm 51 , which seems to be a right place to be right , you know against you and you only have I sinned and done this evil in your sight , there has to be the idea and it's very scriptural to do so to have the accountability Literally meaning , to lean on someone else right To have the help and the hope from someone else who has perhaps gone down that road or whose eyes are wide open on the scripture , where your eyes are not , because maybe your eyes are focused a little bit too much on the man in the mirror as opposed to looking up .

Mark Spence 42:45

Yeah , we need to strengthen each other , we need to lift up each other's arms , because we will all be inside of a place where we need help , where we feel like we're hopeless and not hopeful , where we are helpless and not filled with the help that is designed and given by God as laid out inside of scripture . And this is where I go to Bruce and I say Bruce , what do you do as a senior pastor , or as a lead pastor , or even as a leader of a ministry or an organization ? What do we do ? Where do we lean when we feel like nobody knows what I'm going through ? Nobody understands , nobody can possibly understand the temptation that has happened inside my life or the pressure from inside and without , as Paul lays out to the church of Corinth .

Bruce Garner 43:30

Such a great question and you're exactly right , and that would be the second thing I would say that I do Probably the most important chapter in this book for those of you who may care to look at it .

Sustaining Spiritual and Mental Health

Bruce Garner 43:42

The answer to the research questions is that God has given us six traits . I discovered at least six traits that God has provided that are under our care so that you can sustain your spiritual and mental emotional health as a person , for instance , one of those . The first of those traits is calling and preparation . If you're not called to ministry and you're not prepared for ministry , of course you're going to burn out and blow up . God didn't send you . You're on your own authority , without his gifting and calling , or maybe you have gifting and calling but you haven't been trained and prepared and mentored and discipled for the work . Okay , so the most important chapter I think that has had the most traction with pastors that I've taught , missionaries that I've taught is a chapter about our identity in Christ , and I include some things there from another author , dr Neil Anderson . So the first thing I do is I've been using some of the things that the scripture says about my identity in Christ for probably 28 years . These are just scriptural truths of who .

Bruce Garner 44:45

The Bible says that I am not in my own strength , not in my own identity , but who I am in Christ . For instance , I am a friend of Jesus , I am a part of the true vine , I am a sheep Under the care and in the flock of the good shepherd . See that last bit . If I'm just another dumb sheep Under the care of the good shepherd , a lot of that pressure rolls off of me because we've all heard that sermon , hopefully haven't preached it . Or the pastor kind of condescendingly says to his congregation I'm your shepherd , you're just dumb sheep . Sheep or dumb , they need the shepherd . Well , dear preacher , so do you . Yeah , you're not a co-savior , you're saved , just in the same way everyone else was .

Bruce Garner 45:30

So my identity in Christ comes first . And when I see the riches of who , I am in Christ , independent of the finances , the budget , the complaint , independent of ministry , because if I could not be a pastor tomorrow , my identity in Christ is completely unchanged . Amen . There are not two Christian identities , where there's a Christian identity for pastors , the green berets of the Christian family , and then there's an identity for everybody else , the poor schlubs in the back of the bus . No , no , we're all the same in Christ . It's just our callings and our giftings are different . So I lean first on my identity in Christ . I look at that almost every day in some measure . I meditate and read upon those scriptures . I remind myself of who I am and who Christ is . Hmm , because that's where my strength comes from . My pastor used to say one big difference between God and you is God . Doesn't get confused and think that he's you .

Mark Spence 46:26

Little complex but if you think through it , right .

Bruce Garner 46:28

People often think they're God and God never suffers under the illusion that he's under .

Bruce Garner 46:32

He's one of us and the second part is then that's my identity , that's vertical and then horizontally mark . I do have good friends , brothers in Christ , scattered around the country . One , a very healthy , wonderful group chat , sprung up in the heat of the pandemic , with past two pastors , friends of mine , who were on the East Coast . It's just , it's all out there . I wouldn't say it's raw because we we keep it biblical and Christian , but it's real . And when people are struggling , when , when men are close to the point of breaking because something's going on in their lives , their families , their churches , we share those burdens with one another and there is a deeper level of understanding and empathy . If you're in that same , in that same ministry , I love .

Emeal Zwane 47:16

That , bruce , you know what you , you said you do with yourself kind of reminds me of Milton Vincent's book the gospel primer , and then also what Jerry Bridges talked about in the discipline of grace , about preaching the gospel yourself every day . Yes , so key to remember our identity and who we are in Christ , so that that , yeah , we don't tie ourselves up than that . And , ray , I wanted to ask you real quick . I mean , we talk about accountability , but but the fear of the Lord is key for pastors . How does a pastor cultivate his fear of the Lord ?

Ray Comfort 47:45

I think it's just understanding the revelation that God gives of himself from scripture , a Band and everything you've ever heard from the world about God , and embrace scripture so that you do cultivate that fear of God , because through the fear of the Lord meant apart from sin . And you can fool anybody . I think Lincoln had that great quote which is so complicated I'm not even gonna try it . You can fool anybody really . You can get in the porn with your phone in the back room . No one knows right , and so you've got to have that accountability directly to God .

The Challenges of Exhaustion and Parenting

Ray Comfort 48:12

Bruce , I want to change subject a little bit and ask you about when you're 26 . You got shingles . You got deeply depressed and very , very tired . You made me laugh out loud when I read what happened about you falling asleep in church . Can you relate that story ?

Bruce Garner 48:26

Yes , when I was on the staff of the church I'm senior pastor out now I was taking more than a full-time load at seminary and trying very hard to prove my worth as the youngest man on a staff . And See , there's that . There's the pride piece again . There's the insecurity I didn't have . Security in my identity . Literally every other person on that staff was older than I , was more accomplished , more educated than I was . I was the only one who spoke Spanish on the staff . I had the Spanish ministry for the church .

Bruce Garner 48:59

The people I was working with for the most part were working class people who had just arrived in the United States , most of whom had a barely literate level of education . So I couldn't exactly . I could minister to them , but they weren't a safe place for me to share my troubles . I was a newlywed , besides , and I married a woman who was fathered by my . My father-in-law , is Is simply one of the most godly , self-controlled men of . He is the most self-controlled man I've ever met and he he pastored for about 50 years before happily retiring , and now he's part of our church family Wow . So I'm living up to a lot . I've got a very challenging academic load , a very lonely ministry , a new wife who was fathered by a better man than I Happened to be to this day . So that's a lot , okay . Yeah , so I got so worn out . I got shingles , tmj and mononucleosis During during seminary . Yeah , that was great . Everybody should get mono and shingles in their mid 20s . It's , it's wonderful . It gives you a nice floor . You know it can't get much worse than that .

Emeal Zwane 50:06

Yeah , it shows how stress you're , because usually shingles comes on later , correct ? I'm looking forward to the comeback . From shingles part of the shingles .

Bruce Garner 50:14

Back in those days and mark You'll remember you were , you were part of the church way back then we had these , these very ornate chairs and a very ornate pulpit . The pastor preached from an ornate pulpit and Two or three of the pastors would sit in these very ornate chairs behind the pulpit . I don't know why we did that .

Bruce Garner 50:31

Sky like the mafia right and the boss is addressing his addressing the troops and his , his lieutenants are sitting behind him say yeah , give it to him . I'm not sure what any of that was about , but I was so exhausted I fell asleep facing the congregation , sitting behind my pastor as he preached . The only thing that saved me was I had my very large King James Bible open in front of me on my lap and I just remember waking up and thankfully I didn't jerk awake right and have one of those spasms . I just remember very slowly opening my eyes and realizing I don't know where we are , I don't , this sermon point doesn't make sense and I realized I've lost several minutes and I very I .

Bruce Garner 51:18

Looked up and I nodded wisely like boy this is good stuff Is it folks aren't we all so blessed ?

Ray Comfort 51:23

to be here the way you put it in the book . You know , I fell asleep in church and you say we all done that . That's what made me laugh , you see , yeah , we've all just nodded off , and then I was facing the .

Emeal Zwane 51:37

Yeah that's bad , bad times . You know , bruce , we're going long intentionally . Today there's just too much good stuff . I I read the entire book , I marked it up , I took pictures of all the different you know things that I wanted to find . Thank you and we're we just don't have enough time , but I do want you to touch on on a couple of things you know . In in a section called the habits of the finish line , you highlighted the following be aggressive about getting regular rest for yourself , make regular escapes with your family , heal yourself of the I use the syndrome and break those electronic chains . Can you just touch on on some of that .

Bruce Garner 52:11

First of all , I would say this if , if there's a part in the book where I'm a hypocrite , it's that one . Remember , I told you on the front side I wrote this in self-defense and these are habits that have actually changed and helped me a great deal , but I am not a master at some of the very things I've prescribed , especially breaking the electronic chains . That phone never stops because I'm on call for the police department . I've got two adult sons that have now moved away . I've got a congregation . We've got missionaries overseas . Anything could happen at any point , but the the idea is simply this If you don't have a finish line , you will fail , because no matter how long the race is , there's always a finish line .

Bruce Garner 52:57

I've been fascinated by ultra runners . These are people who run more than marathon distances . Some of the longest races in the world are 200 mile races , wow , okay , seriously . Yeah , there's a Tahoe 200 that was just recently run . Okay , that's one individual running 200 consecutive miles Unbelievable . It takes about 60 hours . Needless to say , these are.01% athletes , yeah , but they have a finish line . They train for the effort . They don't run all the time . They prepare to run , but then when it's over , it's over and they put enormous resources back into themselves through nutrition , massage , medical care All kinds of things , then , are given to replenish the athlete . If you leave it up entirely to other people to decide whether you get to rest , you never will . Yeah , you never will . So one of the most important habits is to and this is again rooted in insecurity to distinguish what a genuine emergency is .

Emeal Zwane 54:00

Yeah , you talked about the urgent versus the emergency , and people want to make their urgent your emergency .

Bruce Garner 54:05

They want to make their sense of urgency , your emergency . Yeah , so I'm a police chaplain . I actually volunteer with two different departments . Even in the world of law enforcement , genuine emergencies are rare . Yeah , they're terrifying . Okay , they're incredibly absorbing . They require a lot of effort and resources , but it's not every single call Right , does that make sense ? Yeah , but you know , pastor , we need to come over here right now . We've been fighting , well , they've been fighting that way for 14 years . It will be okay if you have dinner with your family , but again that insecurity kicks in and that your sense of pride in self . They need me . I must go . And you do a terrible disservice to your children If your children get it in their mind that their time with you depends on whether anybody else calls your toast as a father . Yeah , because they probably will .

Emeal Zwane 55:03

I love the build , build the fence portion .

Bruce Garner 55:06

The word picture in the book is your children . God bless my boys . Ministry kids are raised in a fishbowl and because that is inevitably true , you as a dad have to do better than the fishbowl and you have to build a harbor . Yeah , I love that .

Emeal Zwane 55:21

Yeah , and even the part where you talked about how you know you're . You're pastoring at the church , where the school also is and your kids your window . It overlooks what they're doing .

Bruce Garner 55:31

My office overlooked their entire life .

Emeal Zwane 55:33

And the whole thing of your congregate talking to you know the teachers and stuff telling me look , don't treat my kids any different , don't give them breaks , but also don't be harder on them , because they're the pastor's kids .

Bruce Garner 55:42

That's huge , since the vast majority of people who will listen to this are people in the church . Let me make a plea on behalf of your pastor and especially his kids Don't expect his kids to be anything more than the godly Christian kids Every kid in the church should be , and the church is trying to disciple them into being . There really aren't two classes of kids where there's normal Christian kids , godly Christian kids and then super godly , extra Christian kids who are pastor's kids and pastors . If you , please , please , please . If you ever make the motivation for your children's obedience that you're a pastor or people are looking , you run a terrible risk of embittering your children Because if the standard is , I have to be a certain way , because my dad might get fired . If I'm not that way , or I've got to be a certain way because people are looking , the easiest thing for that 18 , 19 year old kid to say is well , I know what to do about this . I'll just remove those artificial standards , I'll leave this home , I'll leave this faith and they're dead . You don't have to worry about me anymore , I'm gone . Wow .

Bruce Garner 56:50

The thing I so appreciate and admire and striving to emulate with the three of you is the children you've raised . I mean , they walk with the Lord on their own . They have a self driven hunger for God . It comes from them . It's not because they're in your orbit that's what we should all strive for but where the finish line ties in , there's a horrible , horrible testimony from the minister , the leader of a large paratroop ministry who cared for the broken , the orphan , the refugee anywhere in the world .

Bruce Garner 57:23

I don't remember the exact line was that his kids were basically left saying , even in adulthood , wish we could have been refugees , wish we could have been orphans . Then dad would have come . He always had love and time and urgency and passion for them and never , never for us . We were what he fell back to if nothing else was happening . You don't want that . That's part of the finish line . I'm home . Barring a genuine emergency and thankfully those are those are rare I might get three or four legitimate emergencies a year where I have to drop everything and stand up in the middle of the dinner and race out Because we've cultivated this . My family has always understood . Yeah , they can handle it .

Emeal Zwane 58:07

And I loved where you talked about two . There are two options often given you know , burnout or rest out .

Emeal Zwane 58:12

I'd rather burn out than rest out . We talk , you know , and people talk about that , and you said , hey , there's another option . And , Bruce , there's so much more we can talk about . And , friends , the book is so well balanced . I mean , you even get into the importance of exercise , talk about breathing not in a new age sense , but but you know ways that you , as a pastor , can learn to cope and to do what's right . Talk about your family or kids , the time you spend , all the electronic stuff . So so good . Thank you , and Bruce , this has been phenomenal . Again , I wish we we had more time . This is one of the longest we've gone , and for good reason . Sorry , friends .

Bruce Garner 58:46

Yeah , no , it's good , but now you know , friends , why ?

Emeal Zwane 58:50

he's Ray Comfort's pastor , Crosspoint Church in Huntington Beach . You can look it up online . The book is the Resilient Pastor how to Remain Effective and Finish Well in Ministry . Bruce Garner is his name . Friends , you've got to check it out , Even if you're not a pastor . Get it , because you'll glean a lot of good stuff , and they're just for leadership in general in different areas of your life . So there you have it , Bruce . Thanks for coming on . I'm so grateful . Thank you , I'm honored to be here . Yeah , really was a joy , friends . So make sure to check it out . Remember to go to our website , livingwaterscom . Check out all the resources there as well . Go to Amazon , get the resilient pastor . Thanks for joining us , friends . We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters Podcast , where we have no idea what we're doing .