Tailoring , you're the best .
Owen StrachanIt's a pleasure being on measure . That was a sick drop , you rhymed inexplicable on the spot . That's not easy , this pickable sick drop on the spot .
Emeal ZwayneOh what ? Come on , bro . That wasn't inexplicable , though . We got to do some freestyle Sitting in front of the TV .
Owen StrachanIt's unclickable , lost the remote , unstickable , the charges they say about me unthinkable . You give me that thick milkshake undrinkable .
Emeal ZwayneOh yeah , man , but you got to drink it raw . But you better get a real big straw . You know what ? It's got stuff low and then it's all good to go down the esophagus . Oh , oh , oh with a softy esophagus .
Owen StrachanThere's no stopping us , because you know that we got the top with dropping this .
Emeal Zwaynewhat you saved me , man .
Owen StrachanOh , that's good , we're not battling , we're um . It's two bars to bar . Yeah , exactly that's what I like doing back and forth . Yeah , is this being recorded ? It ?
Mark Spenceshould be , by the way .
Emeal ZwayneYou are dearly beloved . Listeners are no strangers to the glories of in and out Often as we talk about it here . But you know someone Really has an in and out problem when they begin to eat the in and out gift card . I shouldn't have told you . Do you know someone who did that right ?
Ray ComfortI'm gonna spill the beans . I was coming up this bridge in the narrow pathway and I saw a guy With his stroller and his wife walking behind him and they got a kid in the stroller and I went past them and they moved over for me to go past on my electric bike with my dog and I thought , oh , this is very kind of them , I'll give them an in and out card each . They didn't speak English , never clue what I was saying when I said in and out . So I said Ham , burger , burger , ham . That was just crazy . So I got the in and out Coupons or vouchers or what are they called cards and I put them on my mouth and bit them . So dumb , what the what am I doing ? They still didn't figure what I was saying , so I just said pesos . That's the only Spanish word I know and they took the cards and we left , and they left smiling Ray . Why , yeah , I don't know , just question , just thinking I'm crazy .
Emeal ZwayneI seriously wonder what they walked away thinking yeah , I would have loved to have heard their conversation .
Ray ComfortYeah we just saw a man with a dog on a bike and the cycle sunglasses on the dog and he's eating . I'm getting cards that we that he tried eating . We've tried eating these cards and they don't taste .
Emeal ZwayneI was gonna say that's a lawsuit coming .
Oscar NavarroIt must be a new ink .
Emeal ZwayneThat's insane yeah right .
How many , how many of those do you think you've given out now ?
Ray Comfortand and 19,000 , I think it's in total . Wow , no way , Thanks to Mark spend , so used to give out subway and he said no people in Southern California were like in and out , so I converted to in and out 19,000 that was just a one-way to one lady trying to unlock the belly .
Mark SpenceWell , you gotta love the prices of in and out as well , so it's not just quality food . Like my son , last night , 1130 comes in my room . He says hey dad , I'm gonna go to in and out . Do you want anything , right , I mean , so it's great food and it's really we feed our .
Oscar NavarroI feel like we base like Whether a meal is expensive or cheap , based in and in and out is our standard . So the family for like $28 . Yeah so we go somewhere else and spend more . It's too expensive standard .
Ray ComfortYeah , just like to stop for a minute and thank you sponsors .
Mark SpenceYou know Laura recently said you know , mark , you're the cheapest guy in the world and I'm just not buying it .
Ray ComfortAll right , all right , friends , look knock it in this sound like that crazy man in the Halloween video .
Emeal ZwayneI Love it . That thing lives on all right fray arms . We got to be quick today because Oscar , mark and I were recently at G3 , the wonderful conference in Atlanta 8300 people . We had a booth there and we got to interview some of our dearest friends most of the speakers , actually I don't see any dears there , venison friends and you're gonna see these or hear these sprinkled all throughout . I will see where we're gonna put them . Some will be consecutive , some not . But first a comment . This is from MD you o , cf e , md kufa , see , or something like that . I might have to unfollow . I absolutely love listening to you all , but after the criticism of elf I might have to stop Just kidding , but elf is seriously my fave . Oh boy , you all are a blessing to listen to . The fact that you all are unafraid to speak , the truth challenges me to Pray to be more bold as a witness . Thank you for all you do in this ministry . Thank you , sorry that you like elf . That's a great movie , but now your marks friend In mind , oh , oh , I know so it was a movie .
Ray ComfortI sing in that idiot thing on television about 200 years ago . This elf three , crude puppet thing from outer space , oh Alf .
Emeal ZwayneSay I said elf , elf , elf .
Ray ComfortAlfie or out , I don't know . Alfie was a movie that came out he was only the cat .
Mark SpenceThat's why I love home .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , all right , france . This podcast is brought to you by the tract sample pack , a sample of the overwhelming majority of the Tracts we carry . Make sure to check it out . Along with the living waters mug , they have a study Bible all at living waters , yes , and with that beautiful song we introduce our dear brother Owen Stran . Mispronounced , as struck by many , that's how pastor Philip , our pastor , pronounces it . It's cuz he's so he's hilarious me , I don't know what Stran is , I'm sure no , not string your past on . Yes , friends , anyhow , we had a wonderful time with Owen . We talked about how to fight and win against the war on men , connected to his new book , the war on men , which , as you'll hear , is available now for you to get . So get it without any further ado . Here's our friend oh and you . Well , friends , he is no stranger to you , he's the bro you know because he's got that rhyming flow the rapping professor , oh and strand .
Oscar NavarroDoes everybody know about this hidden gift of yours ? Is it well documented ? What ?
Emeal ZwayneYou didn't know Steve Lawson's beatboxer , oh my word .
Owen StrachanThat would be epic . That would be lit , as they say . It's a well hidden gift .
Mark SpenceLet's put it that way .
Emeal ZwayneIt's well hidden , it's exposed now . That video you got on there . Man , you still got that video up . I don't know . I'm not sure that was epic . How does it go ?
Owen StrachanI plead the fifth on that so for people who don't know .
Oscar Navarrowhat are you guys referring to here ? Your guys' mutual talents ?
Emeal ZwayneHe dropped some rhymes all the time , inexplicable .
Owen StrachanAplicable , aplicable Unstickable . Yeah , keep going easy .
Emeal ZwayneIt's kind of like a skateboard . It's a little bit flip-flop-able . You got to get on it , you got to go flow down the street , you got to go with the beat . It's extraordinarily neat .
Oscar NavarroSo for those who are listening and don't realize , you just made that up on the spot .
Emeal ZwayneFreestyle oh and oh and inspires me . And , by the way I said , steve Lawson beatboxes for him , but he does it expositorily .
Mark SpenceYeah , yeah .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , positorily , claws by claws . Yeah , well , oh , and it's great to have you with us , man , thank you . This isn't this really isn't like an interview . This is fellowship for us . Brother Brohood , yeah , and those of you that listen to the podcast , you know we did a few episodes with oh and back in the day , yeah , but he's back , friends , because today his book drops how to fight and win against the war on men , and that's what we want to talk about today , bro , was that , was that like a labor of love , that book ?
Owen StrachanYeah , this book has been a long time coming . For me , the War on Men it's with Salem Books , and I was the president of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood for a while , yeah , and so got to work on these issues starting in 2012 . I was executive director and then president , so I've been concerned about men for a long time and a lot of people have . That's not like a rocket science reality for us to see that men are struggling . Men are struggling tremendously . Today , men are told that they're toxic , and it's one thing for us to hear that as mature , adult men who know how to handle ourselves and take arrows . It's another thing for boys and young men to hear that they're toxic .
Emeal ZwayneYeah .
Owen StrachanThat they're lower than women . There's something wrong with them that is not wrong with little girls . So I just have a burden , a pastoral burden , an evangelistic burden , you could say , to help men and help boys and help young men .
Oscar NavarroI'm excited you're writing this book . I've read of boys and men and I've read the War on Boys and those . Some things that those books highlight is exactly what you're talking about . We think , like what's the big deal ? People maybe don't realize the stats , like the dropout rate is significantly higher for boys and girls in high school . The rate of successful suicide for men is significantly higher than girls . Women are divorcing men at a greater rate than men are divorcing women . Yeah , you know SAT scores , college admission , like I mean the stat line from about 12 years old until 25 , 30 prison rates all of it is significantly greater for men than it is for women . What's why ? What's going on ?
Owen StrachanMan ? That's a great question and what I talk about in the War on Men is basically that feminism has succeeded , would be a quick answer there . So feminism launched an attack on biblical manhood and womanhood about 60 years ago , later stage feminism , that is we might call it second or third wave and it's brought into today , the idea in broader culture that again it's basically not good to be a strong man . That's , in particular , what's targeted , not just general manhood . That's targeted , yes , but being a strong man , being assertive , being a risk-taker , telling other guys to man up or be strong , or something like that . You can go on Brown University , for example I cite this in the War on Men , this book and you can find a page on toxic masculinity and that's how they define toxic masculinity . The way probably the four of us have raised sons , in so far as we have To be assertive , to be a leader , to hold doors for women , those kind of things , those behaviors are now called toxic . So basically , what that reduces to , any man who is showing any strength or initiative or leadership should step back and not be that way and actually should be rewired so he doesn't do that and that is absolutely violent to the nature of a man . It's not that a man always has to lead or always has to have the most to say , or something like that , but it is wired into men from God himself that when there is a threat on premises , when there is something that goes bang in the night downstairs , a boy or a man wants to respond to that , wants to show that he's a man , wants to show that he's strong . That's 1st Kings 2-2 . Be strong and show yourself a man . David Esalaman .
Mark SpenceSounds like you're mansplaining . We were down in Huntington Beach and I got into conversation evangelizing , and the subject of abortion came up . The people I was talking to brought up the subject of abortion and so I started to respond . And the lady said sounds like you're mansplaining right now . And I was very tempted to say what is mansplaining . And as soon as she explained that I wanted to say it sounds like you're woman's explaining . So it's so one-sided that we are always in the wrong , no matter what . There's nothing you can say , there's nothing you can do . You are just wrong . And now you need to be silenced , unless you're going to celebrate me in my opinion , and that's even the way it goes in the church .
Owen StrachanYou know , the Mother's Day sermon will be praising the very essence of womanhood and the Father's Day sermon will be you idiot fathers , do better . Now there's all sorts of things that men need to work on . Men are sinners . This book isn't soft-gloving sinful manhood . We're saying no , we need to be changed , we're headed for hell . We need the Gospel of divine grace , we need the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us . But women and men are equally sinful . There's not one that's worse than the other , contrary what our culture says .
Emeal ZwayneYou know what excites me about this book , owen , is you're writing from a scholar's perspective , but knowing you personally , I know that you bring it down to street level . That's so important . And for those of you that don't know Dr Owen Strand , he's a Provost and Research Professor of Theology at Grace Bible Theological Seminary . So I'm glad that those two elements are going to be married together , no doubt in the book . And you know , I want to do a few things during our time together . I want you to kind of talk about the war on men and define it for us . So like , what is it exactly ? Then I want us to get into the roots of it . We want to know the history . Where did this come from ? You touched on it lightly here a moment ago , but I want you to kind of get deeper into that . And then I want you , lastly , to give us a battle plan , like how do we fight , how do we counter this ? First , as men who are called to be leaders in the church , leaders in our community , leaders in our families , how do we fight it and turn the tide ? So let's start with what you mean exactly by the war on men .
Owen StrachanI mean that the very idea that manhood is a God created and good reality is militated against . Our culture opposes strong manhood and it opposes it , as I said , primarily first , from that angle of masculinity is toxic today . So if you're teaching boys and young men that they are inherently toxic , that is you declaring war on their God-given nature as a man . That's not something that , by the way , a 10-year-old boy think of , a 10-year-old boy in a public school , not even a Christian . How is he going to know how to respond to that ? What is he going to say to that ? Is he going to quote the opposite side of the gender theorist and say , well , actually , just say to study , manhood is not toxic ? I would cite Smith and Jovonsky on this . No no he's just going to hear that he's not going to know what to do . Our culture , therefore , is stifling boys . Our culture is opposing boys . Boys don't fit in our culture . Increasingly , you see a war on men and on boys when they are prescribed medication , for example , for different conditions . Some boys need that , but a lot of boys are just being boyish , in a school setting , for example , but they're in trouble perpetually . They don't have spaces in which to be a boy . You recognize in terms of factors and causes . Lastly , that again , feminism has had a massive effect on our culture . Think about how women , 10 years ago , by Cheryl Sandberg , were called to lean in . What she was saying is women should lead . That's the idea . We're not saying . There's never a context where a woman can lead in business or something like this , but what I am saying is that men are hearing in that kind of call to not lean in , to lean back . Look at the superheroes and all sorts of movies . Now , male superheroes are saved , usually regularly , by female superheroes . Often the female superhero weighs a buck ten maybe , but she's the one saving this 220-pound man . It's not that a woman never saves a man , but there's just a cultural narrative that's very strong today .
Oscar NavarroWhy do women mean biblically masculine men ? How does this benefit women and children ?
Owen StrachanThat is such a good
question . You think about the song about 30 years ago where have all the cowboys gone ? Which was an early cry from deep within feminist circles of a recognition that something's being lost . Wait a minute , this whole modern thing where women enter the same roles as men , that's what feminism argued for basically in its second wave and its third wave . Women are equally head of the home in the church . Women are equally pastors in terms of Christian circles . Women are equally providers and protectors . Men are not called to that role in a unique way . But that song that I cite where have all the cowboys gone ? Is this woman saying wait a minute , I don't have strong men around me anymore . Where did they go ? There was a TikTok video just a few months ago that basically said the same message . It was this young woman saying she wanted , basically in so many words , a strong man , but she didn't want him to be conservative . You just recognize that there's actually a lot of women out there who want a man who is strong for them , who in some form at least leads them , protects them and provides for them . But then they're trained by the culture not to want the ideology , the theology , the truth that creates those kind of men . So women are in a very bad predicament today .
Emeal ZwayneAnd even from the protector standpoint . I saw a video on this recently that was just brilliant , where a man was saying look , women these days , feminists especially don't really realize what they're asking for , because in the end , if men pull back from being protectors , it's going to be the demise of our society and women are going to be in a woeful position .
Owen StrachanThat's really what Jordan Peterson has said . He's called for men to be dangerous and he doesn't mean for men to be dangerous against the innocent . He doesn't mean to go attack somebody and show you're dangerous . He has pointed out that men need to have the capacity to defend themselves and others . There needs to be a controlled danger about them and I would argue I think that's actually found in Scripture too . I think a man is called to act like a man . So you recognize there is a strength in a godly man , in a man who is saved by divine grace . The weakness that Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians , 9 and other texts is not Paul saying literally like I can't lift my Bible off the shelf or something , or I can't even write on a piece of paper . Paul is saying I'm spiritually weak . But then look at what Paul does . He goes on these four massive missionary journeys . So you've got to read weakness in the right way and we need to just know that . Yes , if men are being called to be soft and passive and live in a plastic world and have a plastic sex slave on pornography on their phone , and these not a wife , not build a family , have a plastic vocation , not build a real job , these kind of things , then what's going to happen is not that women are going to thrive . Women aren't getting safer with soft men everywhere around us . It's actually becoming much more dangerous because the evil men will keep rising and proliferating and there are no protectors left where all the cowboys go .
Oscar NavarroThat actually leads me to my next question , which is I got to read the book very quickly because I got it like two days ago , so I'd like to have finished it . But I noticed that you bring up Jordan Peterson , Joe Rogan and things of this nature . You bring them up in a good , but you also seem to pause before calling them the answer , and I like that you do that . Why is the Jordan Peterson's , the Joe Rogan's not enough ? In other words , what is it about biblical masculinity that we don't find in the vacuum that is being experienced right now ?
Owen StrachanThose figures and others , the manosphere . They say some truths about manhood . They have a common grace purchase , I would say on certain realities of manhood . They call men to discipline , to courage , to self-control in the right sense , to strength . But ultimately , the only way you can inhabit manhood rightly and to God's glory is to know Jesus Christ . And this is ultimately where the conversation goes . It goes to Christ . Christ was both tender , calling the little children to him Matthew 19 , 13 to 15 , and he was tough , making a whip of cords in the temple , john 2 . So that's ultimately the emblem of Christianity for men and women alike . But especially when you're a man and you're looking at Christ's life , you're like , oh , by the power of the gospel . That's what's missing , oscar . It's the gospel that's missing from all these other discussions . So we don't just have a little bitty contribution to make as Christians in the manhood conversation or the womanhood one . We have the contribution to make .
Mark SpenceAnd speaking of that contribution , when you write a book , it's because you have something you want to say , you want to get out there . Is there a portion of your book , is there a chapter , where you say to yourself this is the part that I'm really excited to get out there , that I want people to learn , whether it be educational , inspirational , equipping but this is the part that you think is missing inside the church , or there's a better explanation on how to handle that part ?
Owen StrachanYeah , that's also a good question . Well , chapter seven and eight cover realities that Christians don't talk a lot about . So chapter seven covers the physical distinctiveness of men , and you'll hear pastors in our circles conservative circles , reform circles however you want to frame that Bible believing circles and they'll talk a little bit about biblical manhood sometimes , but you'll rarely ever hear , for example , this statistic Men have on average 2,000 percent more testosterone than women . I think sometimes we're scared of those kind of stats like oh no , I'm quoting signs , I'm not quoting them . Is that allowed ? Can ?
Ray ComfortI do that .
Owen StrachanAnd we want to be careful about our authority . Right , Bible is our ultimate authority , but all truth is God's truth . And in that little stat , men on average have 50 percent more upper body strength than women . There's a second one .
Mark SpenceUnless you're easy , that is 75 percent .
Owen StrachanWell , I had you covered . What's getting hot up in the conference hall ? Yeah , I would just say those kind of stats , those are on average . Right , there are women who can dunk a basketball and I can't , or whatever they can far outspread me , but on average . And that tells you something about how God has wired men . But our culture hates all those kind of distinctives . And then in chapter eight I talk about what men are wired for and I say things like men do their duty , men build a vocation . Men show up when no one else does . Men are ferocious against evil , even a sentence like that . You say that in even a church context and people are like ferocious .
Emeal ZwayneAre you allowed to say that it's like ?
Owen Strachanyes , when there is evil on premises and no one else is stepping up to handle it , you set your jaw and you go against it in the power of God . That's what we need in the public square , for example . That's what you guys represent , but in a loving way . I don't mean hate , flesh and blood . But we've got to recognize we have a foe . His name is Satan . We have to stand against it . There are so many men who are just living a passive life , even in the church , and they're not standing up for their wife , their children , their church and so on .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , the image that comes to my mind when I think about what the world is trying to do to men is like trying to shear the main off of every lion . Hmm , ooh and just no , no , no , lions , you can't be wearing the mains . You know that's offensive and it's like . Are you kidding me ? This is who God has designed .
Mark SpenceThere's no way he just came up with that . You are not that smart I did so humble in me .
Emeal ZwaynePut that in the book , bro , If you can next Put that in the book .
Owen StrachanYou don't have to actually Revise it .
Emeal ZwayneBut you know what I'm saying . But that's what it's like .
Owen StrachanYeah .
Emeal ZwayneAnd the bully pulpit of the world . Man is so , so effective .
Ray ComfortYes .
Emeal ZwayneAnd this has been being preached . I mean I've said for years how television , even comedy , you go back to the Simpsons . Right there's Homer the idiot , the doofus , oh dad , always being made fun of . I mean that seems funny and cute , but man that preaches that impacts people there . It is All over the place .
Owen StrachanSo true , it's had a tremendous impact . All these factors , that's why the war on men . I isolate factors , but honestly there's almost too many to count . There's so many factors against what I call strong manhood , godly manhood . You think about these videos now that are seemingly on our social media every hour , where there's some fight in public , some awful brawl breaking out and what do you see so frequently on camera ? People standing around right , Just standing or filming it for shock value , and a lot of those people are men .
Mark SpenceYeah that's right .
Owen StrachanSo something has profoundly changed . Oh , that's crazy , when men won't step up . But see , this is the deal . You can get really mad at men for not stepping up right , or boys , or young men . You can go , you idiot boys . And that used to be the way Christians were talking in the reformed and conserved as space about 15 years ago . You know , just rants and tirades against men . Here's what I realize and here's what I try to bring to the table in this book the War on Men . Men have been coached that way . Men are penalized now if they step up . Men have had a needle stuck in their neck and they've been anesthetized . Men have had the mane sheared off of them . You're exactly right . So why are you expecting men to be courageous when they've been told ?
Emeal Zwaynenot to be . Yeah , and at the same time , mark , you remember , years ago we had that representative from the church of Satan come and we did , you know , ray did an interview with him . This guy shows up and he was , he was a homosexual , very effeminate . He came to mind recently and I looked them up and I was like in shock , right , and this is speaking to the vacuum that Oscar referenced a little bit ago . And so I look them up and this guy is like rip , he's huge . I go on and watch one of us , yeah , one of me .
Owen StrachanYeah .
Emeal ZwayneAnd I watched the video of his . He's become like this big voice now in the in the you know movement for restoring masculinity .
Mark SpenceLike yeah , that guy .
Emeal ZwayneThat's him . Yeah , and I was in shock , but it really speaks to the vacuum , don't you think ? Oh , and in that people are now beginning to say , hey , we don't like this , but unfortunately they're willing to accept fully some of these guys that that really have some issues . They're speaking like an Andrew Tate as an example . You know it's like are you serious ? But it's like there's such a vacuum . There's a problem , but they're not going to the right place where the gospel is included .
Owen StrachanThat's where I was going next with what you were setting up there . I was going to go to Andrew Tate because men want to be strong . Every man wants to be strong innately . Every boy does . I don't mean that's going to go right in every case . In fact , in a lot of cases , because of our sin nature , it's going to go very much wrong . That's why you have gangs , that's why you have terrible activity among kids . You know that takes place . But fundamentally men don't want to be weak , men want to be strong . So what does Andrew Tate project on his social media feed ? He projects owning Bugatti's beautiful women on his arm , anything he wants , and he walks around . You know he's kind of an impressive guy , he's a kickboxer , whatever he is , and that has a very powerful effect on young men in particular
. Because but think about it , think about it not just critically but sympathetically for the audience the audience has been told not to be strong . The audience has been told to just sit on the couch and get puffed up and eat chips and not steward your body and watch porn and not go to work and all these things . And so what happens when you've got this muscled , ripped guy speaking into a camera and talking , by the way , very strong , very assertively , that's going to speak to you . Here's the deal . I call this form of manhood in the book exaggerated manhood . It's Samson manhood . It's not actually biblical manhood . It has a kind of element of it in the strength , but it's not virtuous strength , it's not godly strength .
Mark SpenceSo it's a good deal . So how do we redeem that ? How do we change that ? How do we grab ahold of the attention of somebody who looks up to Andrew Tate and says , okay , well , I want to be like that , I guess ? How do we pour into the next generation of kids my kids , you're up from your boy . What do we say ? What do we do ? Where do we go ? How do we lead ?
Owen StrachanGreat question . I think we make clear to them that that instinct in them to be strong , to be a risk taker , to be aggressive boys are wired differently . Right , they're not all made to be high school quarterback of college D1 athlete . But we want to make clear that that instinct in you to want to be strong , to want to grow , to want to take responsibility , that's good , that's .
Mark SpenceGod given .
Owen StrachanThat's God given , that's a divine call to you actually to rise from being a boy 1 Corinthians 13 , 11 , and become a man , but not just in a general way , not by going out in the woods and banging drums or you and your dad having a nighting ceremony or something like this with a sword . That's not bad , necessarily , but the way you grow up from a boy to a man is you , by God's grace , you know Christ and then you seek to inhabit leader , protector , provider , self-control , being strong against evil and strong for the good . And that's when you are locking into manhood .
Mark SpenceIt's all grace and power Is that how you model it as well for your boy . I mean , is that what you do ? I heard Todd Freel once say that your children should know that you're the greatest sinner in the house , and the way he defined that was it's because you're always pointing things out that you've done wrong , and then you're pointing to the grace of God . Yeah Right , so it's not that you're actually sinning . You know more than everybody else , but you are modeling what it's like to be a man , right ? I've often said that it's not our job to raise Christian children . It's our job to model what a Christian is for our children .
Owen StrachanYeah , two things I say to my son , just to flesh this out . I like what you just said . I'll say to my son Dads eat last when there's like food on the table for the small group meal or whatever it is , you know , at the potluck at church . We still have a potluck at my church and I'm at the end of the line , and I don't mean by that . Look at your dad . Amazing is I'm like no , this is because women go first , boys do not rush to the table . And then when I'm on a trip for speaking , for ministry , as you men do as well to some extent , I'll say to Gavin you're the man of the house . He's 12 years old , so he's not technically deadly in force yet , but you know , I'm coaching him into that right . It has to be modeled and , yes , you have to be humble in this . This isn't just brow beating your son . This is what older generations , I think , didn't understand . They thought the way to get your son to be a man was just to whip him into shape all the time . I think they missed one small element love , yeah , love .
Oscar NavarroThat's so important man I've shared on this podcast . Before I had an abusive stepfather who wanted to raise me up to be like a little street fighter you know what I mean Like I wasn't a man until I got hold of my own . He taught me to punch first , et cetera , et cetera , et cetera . There was an element of that most of that that was truly toxic , like in the actual intention of the word . And yet I love what you're saying , because it's so important that we raise our children in the smallest of ways to start to become men . I love what you just said . I can remember my son like I would do the same thing ever since he's been a baby . He's 12 as well and it's like when I'm gone , you're the man of the house . And that started really small , practically . It started small and it was like this if there's a spider , who's the one that kills it ? When dad's gone , it was him . And I remember one time he was like two years old , still in diapers , I think so , maybe younger than two , and there was a spider and Kelly , my wife , calls me and she's like , hey , he's a little nervous , you know . And I'm like , yeah , I know , I'll walk him through it . It wasn't that Kelly can't kill the spider , it was that I wanted him to see his role and now , when I get home from a trip , he's like I killed three spiders .
Mark SpenceI guess literally he didn't even know .
Oscar NavarroYeah , so those little ways , those little victories for boys are so crucial , and something that actually our producer , eddie , did with his kids was take them through sort of a process of becoming a man when they become teenagers , which is something our culture has lost , like the movement from being a boy to being a man . How can we , for the parents out there with teenage boys , what are rhythms , what are practices that we can do with our kids to help prepare them for manhood ?
Owen StrachanYeah , I love that . Eddie did that , and I think that's really valuable and helpful . There's not a biblical call at a certain age , you know . It's like the Jews have the bar mitzvah at age 12 . We don't have that in the New Testament as the call , but I do think we recognize that we're continually training our son to understand especially as he gets into the middle years , preteen years that he is now a young man . I even think just doing that is huge for the way a boy thinks about himself Like son . You are not I say this to him sometimes you are not a five-year-old . You know , we can't act like a five-year-old . We've got to act like a young man , because , even though you're only 12 , you are a young man , and then there are ways we can take that out and concretize that , formalize that with our sons , and that is good . So much of what we have to do , though , guys , is put an arm around our boys , and I think even prior generations , they almost . They thought it was the right thing . I think they were trying , but they thought it was the right thing to have an arm away from their son pushing the son almost away into the wild to become a boy , or even take a hand against him . And of course I'm not speaking of a spanking or something like that , but I am saying a lot of what we do to raise sons to be godly men by the grace of God is not arm against them , it's arm around them . That's good man . And yes , you do have to do a fair amount of correction , by the way , for boys , right ? I mean , let's be honest , boys have 2,000% more testosterone on average . That creates real problems for mom when she's homeschooling all day . Let's not sugarcoat this . Boys can be a real handful . If boys are not shepherded and discipled and saved by the grace of God , they can cause major mayhem . But again , arm around the shoulder , baby .
Emeal ZwayneI love that , you know , and it's interesting because recently I was watching an older movie and this son had accomplished something great and the father reached out his hand and they shook hands and it was just a reminder , like you said , of that older generation . Right , yeah , it's so formal , but , you know , one of the things that delights me is to see the redemption that has been happening . You know , in our circles there are so many young men . If you ask for a raise of hands in a room where the overwhelming majority would raise their hand , when you ask how many of you are from divorced families , yes , but the trend is changing . You know , like I said , even within my own circles , I'm seeing these young men now being brought up by fathers that stayed at home . Yes , and we're there . So it's great to see that . So , give us the history , take us back . Well , where did this start ?
Owen StrachanWhat are the roots ? The roots are what we would call second and third wave feminism . So in the 1960s the idea really catches on in culture that young men and young women shouldn't be inhabiting different roles in the home or in the church . They should have the same roles . And that comes to fruition and flowering in the 80s and 90s , where you've got sort of power suit feminism in the public square . And now in today you've got fourth wave feminism so-called which really isn't fourth wave feminism at all . It's really gone queer Feminism has gone queer . But that influence , that movement has caused massive effects in culture and society for men , because men are now no longer looked to as the leader . There's no longer this cue , this understanding that men should step up and do the hard thing . There's now actually really the opposite wiring for
a young man . When I'm around young men in my son's basketball team back in Arkansas this is not high-flown basketball , but it is . I'm an assistant coach . I've stepped into the coaching ranks because I want to connect with my son and I love him so much . He's a great young guy . So anyway , you have to train these boys . I've learned to catch and to rebound . Okay , I don't mean become this amazing rebounder . I mean , they don't have the instinct to even really go get the ball and it has been so instructive for me in showing me that again , as I've said , boys have had the assertiveness and the aggressiveness extracted from the fundamentals , which should be common sensical , have been removed from the boys today . Yes .
Mark SpenceI remember we had a missionary inside of Uganda who was overheard saying if a spear is being thrown at you , if you flex , the spear will bounce off of you . And we think well , it's common sense that that is not accurate . That is not true . Yes , but common sense is actually a learned trait . So when we begin to think through what is the next generation of boys being taught , yeah , we need to make sure we're doing our job at home with these fundamentals , which were once considered so common sense and are really not .
Owen StrachanThe bad news is that our culture has basically abandoned boys . It is abandoned young men . I'm talking about secular culture . It's a wild world out there . Here's the good news , sorry , here's the good news . In the church we have a tremendous opportunity to make disciples , and that's what Peterson shows us . Peterson was nothing other than a father in public in the last decade . Roughly rounding up a little bit , he didn't get it all right . I don't agree with him on all things , but he said to transgender pronouns in Canada no , that's what your dad says . To things that you shouldn't do , no , yeah . And then he stood up and he called people to responsibility and maturity and self-control , from his own worldview not a Christian worldview , but Christian influence to some level . And people responded like crazy to that . And so here's the deal we as Christians . Yes , the world is on fire , but we have an amazing opportunity . Because of how bad the world is , the world isn't even trying to form men , so we've lost competitors in the market and we've almost got the market to ourselves .
Mark SpenceYou know what's interesting ? I was watching a video yesterday of Jordan Peterson and he was in tears . He was crying down . Maybe you've seen the video where he was talking about we need to scare the hell out of our boys , and he went on to explain what he meant by that , and it was not anything Christ-centric in the midst of it , but he was talking about heading down the stream of the feminism in which we're heading .
Ray ComfortYes .
Mark SpenceAnd that scares him to death . And he was so emotional with his Christ-less conservatism that he doesn't know where to go . He doesn't know what to do with that . And then we have guys inside the church that don't know how to handle that , because this is not even being taught anymore . It's just being swept underneath the rug . That's right . This is why I appreciate it . I'm so excited to read your book .
Emeal ZwayneThat comes out today . Today , the War on Men . So , real quick . What can the church do to counter this ? Leaders within the church , those that have , by God's grace , influence over the people of God who are called to be salt and light in this world , yes , what can they do ?
Owen StrachanYeah , we have to reconceive of church and we've got to think of church not just as something we do on Sunday morning at 11 am or whatever time you go , but we've got to think of church as biblical worldview training center and discipleship center . And I'm saying very basic things . This is not genius theology talking , but too many churches are just preaching points where people go , show up , do their thing , shake a few hands , eat a donut and leave . And we've got to recognize whoa , whoa , whoa , whoa , whoa , whoa . The culture has basically disintegrated In terms of this issue of manhood . It's abandoned boys and not just abandoned them , it's targeting them . So we have to do the hard work of forming boys to be men . We've got to have actual teaching on that . We've got to have programs or youth groups or whatever that have a real eye to that . We've got to raise up men in the church to be disciples of the boys and young men who come in , who don't have a father . We don't just want those boys and young men from the community who come in to sort of sit there and then leave . We want the older men to see themselves as having something really valuable to teach these young men , all anchored in the gospel of divine grace . So , in sum , we've got to be a kind of field hospital . Okay , yeah , it's a war zone out there . Don't think of our culture as just vaguely not really on cue with manhood . No , it's actively working against boys and men , and that's not just a generic issue . Actual flesh and blood . Boys and young men are being profoundly harmed by this . So we set up a field hospital in the middle of it .
Oscar NavarroTwo things . One I have a great rebounding drill for you . We'll talk later Because we had the same thing , but we fixed that problem , okay . Second thing is I love what you're saying . I think you're absolutely right . I'm thinking one historically , the movement from being a boy to being a man , like when you were a little boy , you were your mother's son and at some point during puberty traditionally in all traditions have this in Christianity and Judaism and beyond what would end up happening in puberty is that you would go from being your mother's son to your father's son and you would begin to go to work with your father and you would begin to take on tasks alongside . You would become an apprentice of your father . And in this day and age we lose that yes , right , because the dad is the doofus . The dad is either the workaholic , the doofus , the exhausted one , the one that's too busy , and so then these boys go to the internet for a substitute .
Owen StrachanSo here's what that is so good . Here's what I've been doing . I don't have this , you know , bootstrapping exciting , rough neck existence . Vocationally , my dad walked the woods of Maine for a living . That was his job .
Mark SpenceThat's a pretty cool job . That's a job . That was a job . Walk the woods . I'm going to pay you to walk the woods .
Owen StrachanYeah , I mean , it's a forester , that's just a cool vocation , but I don't have that . I go and I mostly type on a computer you know what I mean or talk to people , but really manly like very manly .
Oscar NavarroIt's a very
manly type .
Owen StrachanI will say but what I want to do is I still want to integrate him as much as I can into my vocation . I want to train him that he's a worker . I tell him today you know you got homeschooled , you know you got homeschooled to do . And then I need 30 minutes of weeding . So we're in suburbia okay , we're not in the , you know , the vast Canadian winterlands or something like this , where he can roam like a young bear . But I can train him . I still can train him , and this is the kind of things we have to do as fathers . We've got to get off our devices today . We've got to ignore the distractions . We've got to get in the word ourselves and be spiritually focused . And then we've got to be intentional fathers . We've got to see our son as one who probably needs even more coaching than we know .
Oscar NavarroAnd I think I think that's that's super helpful , because as we talk about the culture we can , I can see a mom , a dad , feeling so overwhelmed Like what can we do about this grand narrative ? There's nothing we can do , but listen . God has always moved in two places in the home and in the church , and that's what we can do . We talk about discipling our boys , and I love that you went to the church as well . And let me give a shout out to some of the guys at our church , like , because the thing is is that we're not just fathers when we're in the church , we're not just men to our own sons , we're men to all the boys that go to our church and and and so , like I can think of one guy at my church like I don't hunt , or I've started to hunt because of him , he hunts . And he was like Brian . He was like , hey , oscar , I'd love to take Levi hunting with me . Like he , as you put it , wrapped his arm around my son . This is a retired police officer . That's like , let me be an officer , let me be an uncle . And then I think of one other story is a good friends of mine , danny and Matt . There's a young . There's a woman who's now a single mom at our church and her son is a rambunctious little guy and he's a struggle . But here I am , I'm sitting around a fire pit and these two guys are like hey , men , it's time we step it up , because he doesn't have a father and so we have to be that figure for him in the church . We have to step in . And I love that . I love the idea of men in a local church not showing up to talk to their boys about fantasy football , but showing up and looking down and seeing the little boys and they're just going . How can I be an uncle ?
Owen StrachanAnd here's what that depends on . Sorry , cutting in , I know we're almost out . It depends on paying attention to the okay and so many boys today , like if I'm at the local basketball gym , not Christian events just shooting around with my son . If you guys , this whole , how do we fight the war on men ? Oh no , what's our massive program ? Honestly , just pay attention to boys , just be kind to boys , get down on one knee , yeah . Just say hey , nice shot .
Ray ComfortThat's a good shot , bro .
Owen StrachanHow long you've been playing here and engaged them , and that's what you guys , by the way . Honestly , this isn't puffing smoke . You guys do wonderfully . You engage people with the love and truth of God , and that is what we need . We need Christians who pay attention to anyone but to our boys to boys .
Mark SpenceHe did something that very great , that was so intentional with his kids his boys specifically was that he reached out to a bunch of professionals inside their job and he went up to them and said hey , would you mind taking my boy with you to work ? So you're a police officer , can you ?
Ray Comforthave a ride along .
Mark SpenceYou're a firefighter , Can you go there ? What are you ? And I think both of your boys did this both Luke and Danny and they were able to see the workforce and I haven't heard of anybody doing that .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , and then each of them we had crafted 15 questions that they sat down afterward with the man that they went out with and asked them these questions , and then they journaled it all and they have it . Wow , and one of my sons , he picked the career path . He went with one of our friends who's an owner , our friend Thomas Pratel . He's an owner operator of a couple Chick-fil-A's . That's his trajectory . He's a manager for him now . Oh , wow . He's a business major .
Oscar NavarroI was super honored . I was one of the men that got to take one of his boys out and I was like I'm meeting with him , I'm super honored that your dad would choose me and he was like well , he said you were the what not to do , Exactly .
Mark SpenceHere's my final question I know we're so rolling out of time and that is are there a couple of books out there on manhood that you go ? You know what , get my book but also get this book , or listen to this guy or go to that website . What is out there besides your book that's coming out today ?
Owen StrachanYeah , future Men is a solid book in some ways by Doug Wilson . Manly Dominion by Mark Chansky is not a well-known book , but it's got some good ideas . It's good to be a man by Michael Foster , and non-tenant has some good stuff . The art of manliness website that we're all aware of has stepped into the gap . I'm part of a project now I've not said this publicly , not that anybody cares , but I'm part of a project called make ready , make ready . We're on Instagram it's the make ready and what we're doing is we're trying to fill those , some of those gaps that the art of manliness , for example , did . The guy there's a Mormon , but he's like teaching boys how to tie a tie young man , I had a shave right and you can , and a lot of people look at ventures like that or even conversations like we just had . They go oh this is stupid . Well , you go , look at you macho guys trying to be all manly and they mock us . But in truth that's why young men are going to the internet to find Basic advice how to talk to a girl . The vacuum , it's this profound vacuum . So I pray make ready can be a little part of filling that gap . But beyond that project We've just got a we've got to start talking about practical manhood as well . We've mostly about , or a fair bit about , theoretical . We've gotten practical too . But this conversation isn't usually the conversation we have in Christian circles . We usually talk about , okay , this Bible verse , this Bible verse conversation done . You've got to help boys know how to talk to a girl . Yeah , like seriously , you've got to help your boys know how to how to dress in different situations . You've got to help boys know how to fail . How do you ?
Ray Comfortreact when you fail . Let's get out .
Owen StrachanOf these are the kind of things We've got to step up .
Emeal ZwayneI love it , you know , and again , it's it's with the end in mind , preparing them from the start , and with our boys as well . We did write a passage , as we did it with our girls , and that they they have a gathered around them , that the men or women of God , depending on their gender , who love , influence them , impacted them , and then they initiate them into that manhood . And , wow , we found it to be really powerful . Huh , with our kids . But , friends , the war on men , the war on men , the war on men . You got to get it . If you're listening to this podcast on any Platform , that means the book is available , it's out because it's being released today , and so get it . And then , oh , and real quick , how can people connect with your ministry and find out more about you online ?
Owen StrachanThat's a very media all that . Thank you guys for this generous time . By the way , absolutely . I'm on Twitter at , or I guess it's X now at Ostrachan and I'm on Instagram at prof Str a chan . So those are two places you can go and All right , and make ready .
Emeal ZwayneYou can check out , make ready , yeah so remember war on men , get it friends and no one . Honestly , brother , it's never enough time with you , so we're gonna have to do this again and again , and again . I hope so . We love it . I love you guys . All right , brother , love you All right , god bless you . Boom , that's what you call fire .
Mark SpenceWasn't that a great interview , guys , with Owen I like that brother , I like him a lot and I just want to say that what he is doing is Unparalleled , really , because he's on the front lines and he is trying to equip and inspire people to Be men , I mean , be a bit biblical man , yeah , and he's giving an example of that through his life and through his . But he you know , he was sitting in front of me as I was listening to Ken Ham , his , his message and his kids are Unbelievably adorable . Yeah , my wife and I were just looking going . Oh , I just want to squeeze their cheeks .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , his son legal in the football dose in the lobby and tricking us , and yes , all kinds of things .
Ray ComfortYou want any more kids now .
Emeal ZwayneGive me more and spy it .
Mark SpenceI just want it . I want to adopt all of them , but I can't yeah , alright , friends .
Emeal ZwayneWell , there you have it . Make sure to get it now , today . The war on men . It will not disappoint . Owen never does . Get it . Don't forget the track sample pack . Living waters , mug , the evidence study Bible . All living waters , calm . Thank you for joining us , friends . We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast . The ultimate cure for insomnia .
Mark SpenceWe have to have that last , but yes , we can skip it if you want . No .