So Vodi , the subtitle for your book is Can Faith Thrive in a Post-Christian Culture ? So for our listeners , explain what you mean by post-Christian culture .
Speaker 2Yeah , you know , that's a phrase I borrowed from Francis Schaefer , and it's interesting for him to have been talking about post-Christian culture .
Speaker 3Turn this time . Yeah , turn this time .
Speaker 2And what I mean by that is not that Christianity is gone , right , that all vestiges of Christianity have faded away , because that's not true . But the way that I illustrate it for people is it's like American culture is a petulant teenager who's decided I know better , right , I'm going to go out and I'm going to do this . He's not acknowledging the fact that every tool he has in his toolbox came from his family that raised him , but he thinks I'm going to go and I'm going to do it on my own . That's America as it relates to Christianity .
Speaker 1Have you guys ever heard someone say wait , should we start that again ? Scotty , no , I never said that , but that was fantastic .
Speaker 5We're both so high , here we go .
Speaker 4I thought he reinterred Peabirdy for the second thing .
Speaker 1I didn't know if he had hit record or not , but I guess he did , so I'll just do it again , even though there's no going you don't need to . Have you ever heard someone say now do it for all the marbles ? Oh , you ever heard of that ?
Speaker 5No , but I used to play marbles . I loved it . So did I . Yeah , great game .
Speaker 1Enlighten me because , well , first of all , the saying Ray , did you ? That sounds like a saying you guys would have said no , no , I see .
Speaker 5if you lost your marbles , that means you're going crazy , Okay that's true .
Speaker 1That's one too . Yeah , but for all the marbles .
Speaker 4I want to . Are you looking for the etymology of that phrase ? Because I can make something up if you want , Please , Like usual . You see , back in the day they used to trade by marbles .
Speaker 1That was the currency of . Yeah , well , in these childish days that wouldn't surprise me . But , ray Marbles , those were a big part of , like your era .
Speaker 5I mean Oscar used to play , and he's this little boy .
Speaker 6The ancient era . Do you know what ?
Speaker 5a stinker is A stinker . Yeah , there were these little marbles that were just useless . That's what you'd say no stinkers when you won .
Speaker 1Oh , is that where we get you little ?
Speaker 5stinker . Yes , sir , what are you looking at me when you said that ?
Speaker 1Minute stinker .
Speaker 5Yeah , yeah , marbles , a great game . Pretty much like soccer , without the crowd and the nets and the bull .
Speaker 4Without all the adrenaline and the fun .
Speaker 1Yeah , but what's ? I don't . I'm sorry , but I don't . Marbles , did you play marbles ?
Speaker 5Don't go off me , I'm going to tell you as to what you were just saying , but wait first , I want you to get it from .
Speaker 4Marbles . You have to understand , for Ray , there was one of two things to do growing up . There was marbles and then that thing with the wheel , with the stick . That was like the only thing to do .
Speaker 5We never did that that was cavemen . No , but the thing about marbles is , when you won , you collected the other person's marble , so it was like you had a oh theft , yeah .
Speaker 1No gambling , no gambling .
Speaker 5It was instant winning . It was a great feeling to be a winner .
Speaker 4Ray was a part of the Marble mafia . Hey man , you want marbles ?
Speaker 1Yeah , but I've been intrigued with marbles all my life . You haven't had all your life . I watched a video how they make them too .
Speaker 4It's kind of a weird word to say over and over Marble , marble , marble .
Speaker 5Every word is weird if you keep saying it again and again at the end yeah , sheiks , no that you keep them up .
Speaker 1But have you guys ever wondered how this all starts ? These sayings , you mean marbles ? Well , someone says it . There's someone who had to have been the first person that said for all the marbles .
Speaker 5Oh , the first person , instead of building the hands with two in the bush . Yeah , there was a first person .
Speaker 1I mean , it's unlikely that .
Speaker 5Probably Adam .
Speaker 1They all when you name the animals they came over these things . Yeah , you just say it through the hands with two in the bush , but people just start saying them without thinking about what they signify . I remember seeing a video years ago where they would interview people on the streets and they would say something totally nonsensical and people would be like yeah , yeah .
Speaker 5Things are more now than they've ever been . Things are more like they are now than they ever were before .
Speaker 6Yeah , yeah , that's true .
Speaker 1Good point , yeah , but things like that , that just pop up and people start making stuff up and going with it .
Speaker 5Yeah , the guy that said down in the mouth was a dentist .
Speaker 1Mr Down in the mouth dentist .
Speaker 4I read this book on writing one time and it pointed out like try writing something without using previously spoken idioms , because what you realize is that we depend so much on previously spoken idioms .
Speaker 1And colloquialisms too . Yeah yeah , that's colloquialism .
Speaker 5Yeah , well , when we came across the US , we were just stuck to express ourselves with certain things because we used colloquialism and we knew what it meant , but you guys didn't ever clue what it meant .
Speaker 4You're like oh yeah right shaving the sheep . Shaving the sheep . What do you have to tell them ?
Speaker 1Shaving the sheep .
Speaker 5Sharing the sheep . Shaving the sheep .
Speaker 1Oh man , you don't want to hear the Lebanese things I grew up with . What do you got there ? What's in the box .
Speaker 3We got a box in the mail all the way from British Columbia . Pause , is it ?
Speaker 4ticking .
Speaker 1Not this one . Like any white powder , From Hashtag Gomez .
Speaker 3She's got an Instagram page called Biblical and Reform , but she ended up sending us a box filled with merch .
Speaker 1Let's go . Oh , is that glitter ? I see too .
Speaker 3Merch , merch , merch , merch for everybody .
Speaker 1Oh , let's see what is this .
Speaker 4Oh , they're so glittery .
Speaker 1What is that ? Oh glitter , oh , just little bags , little fancy bags .
Speaker 3To live as Christ and to die is gain . That's true . What is this ?
Speaker 1Right , oh wait , patches . It's not a bag , it's a sweatshirt , that's sweatshirt and these are sweatshirts .
Speaker 4Is this her swag ? This is her swag .
Speaker 3Ooh , unashamed of the gospel . This is what she does . Look at this , so I need it we got stuff for everybody here Thank you .
Speaker 5Is that nice . This is going to be tied on my biceps , but I'll manage .
Speaker 3Well , there's a couple different sizes in here , so grab the size that you want . Yeah , Ray , I think I saw an extra small .
Speaker 1Let the crew Super small . Oh , this is so cool , that's very nice . Thank you so much .
Speaker 4That is really sweet .
Speaker 3Hooded sweatshirts regular size sweatshirts .
Speaker 1What's that from there ? Is that a shirt or a hoodie or a Ooh Ooh ? I'd wear that To live as Christ . That's a crew neck Nice .
Speaker 5So these are black with white riding on them , and they're very attractive .
Speaker 1Yeah , for those who can't see , I'm sure we're going to get emails .
Speaker 3I follow her on Instagram and boy , she's got some great posts .
Speaker 4Maybe we can add her link into the show notes . Sure .
Speaker 3Surely Do one of us know how to do that I'm listening to this .
Speaker 1Yeah , I'm sure Scotty can take care of it . Thank you so much , and I'm sure we're going to get emails about this being Illuminati stuff . Everything we do , everything is Illuminati . Oscar's hair is in the shape of an Illuma .
Speaker 4Did you notice the ?
Speaker 1triangle .
Speaker 6I did .
Speaker 4Yeah , when you get into the Illuminati , there's approved hairdos . Yeah , and you got to pick one out of the 20 .
Speaker 5The thing that you can pick some of them Illuminati is they strap two of their middle fingers on their left hand . Yes , that's it .
Speaker 4That's a sign For those not , who cannot see . I have two middle fingers strapped together because I have a ruptured tendon .
Speaker 1And a broken foot and a broken foot . I'm sure some's wrong with your head too , oscar Well that's obvious Some broken there . That's where it all started , all right . And we also got a box full of goodies from our friend , jeremy , who we told you all about the 16-year-old whose father's in the military , and he sent us a picture of him , with the mug that's awesome . That's a evidence Bible and a hat . A hat , some cookies , a nice cool little egg thing with some cool little crocheted egg things . We text quite a bit oh , do you ? Yeah , yeah , and he's got a beard at 16 . Look at this .
Speaker 4I'm 39 now . Oscar still can't grow that I don't do 28 before I grow on the starch my brow came down for a drink .
Speaker 1All right , friends , we have a comment . This is from niceandholyapp Holy app . Hi , I'm 13 years old . My name is Are you ?
Speaker 3rapping this .
Speaker 1I have a qualification here too on it , because he said we may get his name wrong and that's okay J-I-S-A-H-A-C high shack , something like that . I love this podcast . My dad told me about it and it is encouraging to know that there are still real men to look up to in the world , and cool how y'all can make me laugh while teaching the Bible . I really admire what y'all do . Keep it up and can't wait for you to keep posting .
Speaker 4Oh , thank you . I thought it was kind of weird that he didn't mention Ray , I know , since it .
Speaker 1Are you gargling , mark ? All right friends . This podcast is brought to you by the Starter Kit 350 Tracked , 101 Funniest One-Liners . Good Person Comic Millie D'Arville , gospel Tracked and the Ten Commandment Coins . Starter kit . Ray , whose idea was a starter kit , I started it . Did you bake in the dye ? Mm-hmm , I remember that was one of the first things I might have gotten from Living Waters Started kit , I think so no , we didn't have it back then . No , did we not Different starter kit ? Well , it would have been something different . It was an idiot kit yeah .
Speaker 5That's why I gave it . Oh no , I'm thinking of the track sample pack the track sample pack . That's right , yeah , that's something else .
Speaker 1We'll be mentioning that on another podcast , but the starter kit boy , these have gone really well .
Speaker 5Yeah , they're great . It's a good way to start giving out tracks Use the starter kit .
Speaker 1You know , ray , on that note , I was just thinking about it . Do you remember the first time you ever gave a track out ?
Speaker 5Yeah .
Speaker 1Seriously .
Speaker 5Really yeah , I was brand new Christians on a Saturday down in Brighton , the actual is it .
Speaker 1It was the very first time .
Speaker 5Yeah , I bumped some shoppers on a sidewalk and handed out a track , or I remember it .
Speaker 4Was it chiseled and stung ?
Speaker 3No , Were other people handing out tracks . I can't remember .
Speaker 5It was like 200 years ago . Who made the track ? I don't know .
Speaker 1I just remember I got it , yeah , I thought by all means , and I think some gave me tracks . Was it biblical ?
Speaker 5Yes , I'm sure it was Brighton . Did you say Brighton ? Yeah , brighton , that was the name of the suburb . Are we going there ? I think you are . You're going to look at my old Leathergear store .
Speaker 1Yeah , friends , we are going on a journey oh really your old , what Ray .
Speaker 5Leathergear store . I had a surf shop I was just thinking about this morning . The greatest device I was ever given by anyone was Stay Small . Do you remember that ? You've done that ? Very well , you followed that advice .
Speaker 1You took it a little too literally .
Speaker 5No , our entire businessman came during a Saturday when there were a lot of people in the store . It was really booming because he used to make leather jackets . I could make leather jackets for people while they wait . Wow , they had to wait three months .
Speaker 1Seriously , ray Would you do it while they waited .
Speaker 5Yeah , three months . It was an hour and three quarters was the quickest I could do . That was the fringe jackets . Anyway , this businessman said to me he'd retired and he said Stay Small . He said you'll have your freedom . I took it to heart because I thought , boy , I can get women in factories making these and I make a lot of money and be paying this insurances and taxes and all that and all sorts of hassles and unions , and that I thought I'm going to stay small . I stayed small To this day .
Speaker 4Yeah , I want one of these jackets .
Speaker 5Don't you Star yeah , Ray , you should really make it , I just want mine Ray will be making jackets all the time For my 40th birthday .
Speaker 4All I want is a leather jacket hand made by Ray Comfort . I'll buy you one .
Speaker 1Hand made by Ray Comfort . Was it me that got you doing them again ?
Speaker 5Yes , I did . I did two or three . I think yeah , because you goad me , that's right .
Speaker 1I said no , I don't believe it . No , you don't , that's all you do . You can't climb the escalator .
Speaker 5What's the largest jacket you made ? Was there 40 , 40 , 40 , no , 50 , 53 inch chest ?
Speaker 1Wow , wait , is that the one with the big man and the little ?
Speaker 5oh , jacob , because Jacob yeah he was a weight lifter for the equivalent of the Olympics called the Commonwealth Games . He was the gold medalist . Wow , he came to see me and he said like a jacket , nothing I had to kill about a 10 cow , and he was a 53 inch chest . It took me like 20 minutes to measure his chest , had to run around the back . But then he lost weight and brought the jacket back . What Really ? Yeah , he retired . He was a Christian . He just stopped weight and lifted him weights and he was down . He brought the jacket back and said Can you alter it ? And I said no . Did you use it as a blanket at night , Ray ? Yeah , we used it as a tent for circles .
Speaker 1All right , friends , enough of this silliness , because we got a serious brother coming on here Again . We told you we went to G three and we got to interview a whole bunch of solid men of God . This one is Vody Bacom . No doubt you've heard of him , friends , and he's going to talk about how to become a lifelong lover and defender of the truth Boy . What a solid brother . You're going to hear about his book too , as well in the interview
. So , without any further ado , here is Vody Bacom . All right , so , as you can tell friends , we are here at G3 in the wonderful state of Georgia , in Atlanta , and we got with us our brother , vody Baccom .
Speaker 6Vody , father and grandfather how many got now three , now three all right , you're one ahead of me , bro , so far one ahead of me . We're hoping for 50 .
Speaker 2Kids , we ought to be able to get 50 grand . Yeah seems reasonable , let's go , guys a special club .
Speaker 1You understand , not many understand it , but , man , once you're in there , oh yeah , the more the merrier , oh yeah , yeah , well , vody , we're excited to have you with us . Brother , thank you for making it all the way here from Lusca , Lusca , lusca , lusca .
Speaker 6Wow .
Speaker 1Yeah , so , man , you , we're just talking before we came on and you've been , you've been hitting the road running yeah , here yeah lots going on lots going on on this trip . Yeah and so , uh , you know we're gonna be talking a little bit about your new , your new re-release , is it yeah ?
Speaker 6describe this because you wrote this a while ago .
Speaker 2I wrote that was my first book , actually in 2004 . Yeah , and we did an update and revision . My publisher got a , got a hold of it and my new publisher and was familiar with it and just sort of looked at it again and they were like that you need to , you need to redo this . Yeah this needs to come back out now , just because so many of the things that I was dealing with you know 20 years ago . Yeah , they've grown up , they've morphed , but foundationally it's the same stuff .
Speaker 1Yeah , right , so the ever-loving truth , can faith thrive , and post-Christian culture . So was there a lot of revising you had to do , or not ?
Speaker 2a lot , not a lot . There were some things that you know we had to update and add . One example the big worldview issue that I was dealing with in 2004 was secular humanism . Right , it's atheistic , it's materialistic . But today , looking at it , the big worldview issue is neo Marxism . Right , still atheistic , still materialistic . Different philosophical twist now on that ideology . So there were things like that that we had to tweak and and help people to see . That makes it even . That makes it even more helpful , even more meaningful . Yeah , because , like I said , we're dealing with Different versions of the same stuff . Yeah , it's atheistic . Materialism right , it's , there is no God . Matter is all that matters . Our ethics and our morals are completely relative because of that , and so let's go now . If somebody would have told me in 2004 that you know we'd be arguing over pronouns oh my goodness and oh you didn't see that come in and you know the definition of a man , right ? You know I'd have told me we're , they were crazy , right .
Speaker 1You know , man , it's like though , it's like the frog in the proverbial , you know pot . Yeah it's , it's like you look , it's like how in the world did we get here ? Yeah , but yet it's been incremental and and I believe the church hasn't been fighting in the way that it should have before we got here . Yeah , but let me ask you this , vody , you know attack on the truth has been a reality , obviously since , since the fall . But attack on the very nature of truth itself is no doubt , you know it's , greater than it's ever been in human history . What would you attribute that ? To ? The attack on the nature of truth itself ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I'd attribute that , I'd attribute that to the fall , because I mean , at its essence , if you're gonna go to war with truth , you either go to war with truth on its own terms , in which case you lose miserably , right , yeah , because I mean truth is that was corresponds to reality , and we can say well , note that you lose that right , or you make an assault on the very nature of truth itself , yeah , so that you sort of take away that ground . You still lose , but it's , I don't know , maybe not as bad as a frontal assault .
Speaker 3The society which we now live . Right it's that they would rather be comforted with a lie . Yeah , then hurt by the truth . And Now truth is more than ever become subjective , yeah , unless you're a Christian then , we want to banish you to the island of forgetfulness Right ?
Speaker 4well , that brings up good point . I want to ask you this because in 2004 I know you talk in the book about Religious pluralism right where it's like all religions are created . Yes , but now , in 2023 , it's not quite religious pluralism , because Christianity is not seen as equal , but rather as a danger in society .
Speaker 2Yeah well , even then , even in 2004 . I was making that point right , that culture . So three ideas pluralism , right , as you , as you've mentioned . The new tolerance , right , and the new tolerance is not . You know , I'll Respectfully disagree with you . The new tolerance is intolerance . I have to embrace what you believe that I have to celebrate it . That's exactly hold on as equal to my own . Yeah , you got to put that in there . I can't just , I can't just celebrate it and hey , that's good for you , I have to celebrate it as equal to my own . And then the last one , of course , is relativism , now , which is there is no absolute truth , right ? And so what ? The point that I was making in 2004 , and I'm still making , is that when that's your foundation , christianity has to be eliminated , because Christianity puts the lie to your very foundation . Right , christianity stands there and says , hey , though , those things can't be true , because what we believe is true . Yeah , therefore , you know , there's a chapter in neutrality is not an option . Yeah , right , they can't be neutral to us , they can . They can be neutral to , you know , eastern mysticism and Buddhism and Hindu , all of that stuff . Right , they can be neutral to that stuff , but to Christianity they can't be neutral . And then here's another interesting thing they can't be neutral to Islam either , mm-hmm , because Islam puts the lie to that as well , but they're afraid of Islam , yeah , yeah so they shut up .
Speaker 6Yeah , yeah , right , yeah , it's interesting .
Speaker 1Yeah , you never hear Islam ever mentioned when they're doing their big rants right . And you know , vody , back in the day , as Christians , let's say 20 years ago , we throw out crazy scenarios . Like you know , one day , you know , someone will want to marry their , their dog , or one day someone will and some of the things we've seen creep up I mean , mark talks about this in some of his presentations people that want to marry buildings , people that are you know , we just did something on someone wanted to marry their alligator , you know . So it's like we're seeing what we used to throw out as scenarios and people think we're crazy as becoming reality . Do you think that this , this sort of stuff , especially within the realm of trans , transgenderism , homosexuality , do you see this as as potentially the main tool of persecution against the church and days ahead ?
Speaker 2No , because it's the main tool of persecution now . Yeah , I mean , it absolutely is . We are the enemy , we are the adversary . But there's a flip side to that . I also see it as a tipping point , because it's a bridge too far , even for pagans . Wow , so you've got non-christians who are saying , right , okay , now wait a minute , you want to do surgery on my child ? Yeah , yeah because my child Believes it . No , that's that . No , you know ? Wait , you got this book in the library . I mean , yeah , no . So even people who are not christians have said this is a bridge too far . So there's a tipping point . My worry , of course , is that you see people going to school board meetings and they're going to battle , but they're going to battle against fruit and not root .
Speaker 3That's the conservative non christianity Right , that conservative nationalism . With that that we are Heralding up anything that's morally on our side , yes , and we're not getting at the root Right . I forget who it was that said it . But the further a society drifts from the truth , the moral hate those who proclaim it . Yes and we are , more than ever during our day and age , seen a hatred .
Speaker 6Yes .
Speaker 3Christianity and the things of Christ . Yes , unquestionably yeah .
Speaker 6You know , that's the that . I'm sorry .
Speaker 2Oh , but that's the neo-marxist bent right . Because in the neo-marxist bent you have that oppressor , oppressed right ideology , and the oppressor is the one who establishes the hegemonic power that's used and leveraged against all those who are minorities right . And in America the neo-marxists see it as white , male , heterosexual , cisgendered , you know on down the line , and then at the end of that is christian . Yeah , they see , ironically , the neo-marxist does see christianity as the root and foundation of western civilization , but they point to that as the root and foundation of the oppression Of all people who don't fall into , you know , those categories , and so that's why there must be again this war against christianity .
Speaker 4Yeah , I was reading a book recently by someone on the other side , out of curiosity and and I almost fell out of my chair because they will they say that facts are used as a tool for oppression . Yes , facts are used as a tool for oppression .
Speaker 2Yes , because they're singing from this sheet of music . They believe that there are different knowledges ? Yeah , they use that word .
Speaker 6Yeah different knowledges and different ways of knowing .
Speaker 2Yeah right , he's crazy .
Speaker 1Ah , professing to be wise man . Yes , so , vody . The subtitle for your book is Can Faith Thrive in a Post-Christian Culture ? So , for our listeners , explain what you mean by post-Christian culture .
Speaker 2Yeah , you know , that's a phrase I borrowed from Francis Schaefer , and it's interesting for him to have been talking about post-Christian culture .
Speaker 6During his time .
Speaker 3Yeah , during his time .
Speaker 2And what I mean by that is not that Christianity is gone , right , that all vestiges of Christianity have faded away , Because that's not true . But the way that I illustrate it for people is it's like American culture is a petulant teenager who's decided I know better , right , I'm going to go out and I'm going to do this . He's not acknowledging the fact that every tool he has in his toolbox came from his family that raised him right , but he thinks I'm going to go and I'm going to do it on my own .
Speaker 4That's America as it relates to Christianity right .
Speaker 2It is everything we are , it is everything that has made us great , it is everything that has built Western civilization . And we've now taken a few classes in college and we're saying that's trash . I'm going to go and I'm going to do something different . And every tool that we have that's worth having comes from the foundation that we're trying to run away from .
Speaker 4I love that man . It's so true , and it reminds me of Tom Holland's book Dominion . He is a non-Christian . Yes , he looks at history and he says look everything that we desire to believe true equality , justice , caring for the poor . All of these foundational beliefs that make us ticks are given to us by Christianity , and so what culture is doing now is they're taking the gift from God and they're distorting it . They're trying to pursue it in their own ways and their own views , and it becomes disruptive . But was justice becomes injustice . So how do we get people to realize that at the core of what they're arguing for can only be found through the lens of the gospel .
Speaker 2By telling them that there's another book that I wrote a few years back I can't even remember how long ago it was but Expository Apologetics . In that book it's all about how we do that and why we need to do that . Presuppositional apologetics right , we have presuppositions , they have presuppositions . They don't think they do . So we've got to show them that they do , show them what their presuppositions are , show them the end result of their presuppositions and how it ends in folly , and then come right back and say I have presuppositions , but here's where mine end up and oh , by the way , everything good in yours you stole from mine .
Speaker 6There you go Right .
Speaker 1You know , Vody , all of us here at the table have kids . We were just talking a few minutes ago about our grandkids . I know that that's one of the things that fuels you with the passion you have to get this truth out , not just for our children , grandchildren , but for God's people all around the world and for generations to come . But if you're able to sit down with a young person today , obviously acknowledging the fact that all of God's truth is important for us to not understand , but in light of this current culture in the midst of which we're living , which truths would you encourage this younger generation to focus on , understand and learn to defend ?
Speaker 2Yeah , so I'll answer that two ways .
Long term , I am going to lean heavily on Creed's Catechism Confessions . Man yeah , right , I'm going to lean heavily on that and , by the way , we run away from that right because of our subjectivism and because of all of these other things . We run away from that right , but I'm going to lean heavily on that . Having said that , I'm also going to lean heavily on our meta-narrative . I'm going to lean heavily on creation , fall , redemption , consummation . Learn that story .
Speaker 6Yeah , it's good Know that story .
Speaker 2And then Creed's , confessions , catechism's , building upon that foundation . Right , so we start with there's a God who created the world . Man fell into sin . God sent a redeemer . Right the end of the age . All of that's wrong is going to be made right . And so , and then we take those three things Creed's , confessions , catechism's and we build up our knowledge and understanding and theological foundation in each of those four areas .
Speaker 6So good that's good yeah , I love that .
Speaker 1You know , Vody , I think it was a year before last I was sitting in the audience at the Shepherds Conference and you preached a message on the Gospel and in there you used an illustration where you talked about strawberries , Strawberries , man .
Speaker 4No , let me just tell you , man , you got saved by strawberries . We've been praying for years .
Speaker 1I got saved again bro . Sitting in that message Seriously , I walked out of there . And to this day it's definitely one of the most powerful messages I've ever heard on the Gospel For our listeners . Can you just kind of summarize the whole struggle ?
Speaker 6Do it again . No , all over .
Speaker 5Start to finish Welcome to Shepherds .
Speaker 1Conference . I want to get saved yet once again , so can you just give us a .
Speaker 2You know , summarize that bro , please , yeah , and it's . The idea is you know you have a kid and you bring your kid to the strawberry patch and the kid eats the strawberry and enjoys the strawberry and is not even original to me but the next thing you do is you take them out and they get you know a strawberry milkshake , and then they get you know a strawberry slushie , and then they get you know strawberry candy and eventually they're getting stuff that doesn't even have real strawberries in it , just strawberry flavoring and so on and so forth , and you do several years of that and then you take them back to the strawberry patch and they eat a strawberry and they don't like it . No , that's good , because it's not sweet enough . You know , first time they ate it until their face was , you know , full of it . But now they won't even eat it . And that's kind of where we are in our culture . As it relates to the Gospel , there have been so many watered down , you know , sugary , fake versions that when people encounter the true Gospel they find it offensive . And of course , in the message , what I said was the answer to that is to keep taking them to the strawberry patch and stop giving them the other stuff and eventually strawberries will taste sweet again .
Speaker 3People may be comforted by a lie , but it's the truth that we face inside the end . How would you define truth ?
Speaker 2I have a correspondence view . A correspondence view Truth is that which corresponds to reality , and , of course , I also have the revelation view , which is truth . Is a person Right and Jesus is truth , and so I bring those two things together Truth is that which corresponds to reality and reality is that which we receive from the one who is truth . And you bring those two things together and you have reason and revelation that continues to pursue not either or , but both and Right , and so this is why it's important ?
Speaker 3Right , this is why it's important , because somebody responds back and they say right , well , your reality is not my reality . Truth is that which corresponds to reality . Your reality is not my reality . Hence , we bring in the truth of the gospel , the truth of God's word . We are sanctified by his truth . His word is truth and this is why the presuppositional approach is the necessity within a conversation , Because when they begin to borrow from our world view , they have no idea of the detriment that lies before them . We have to continually open up God's word and demonstrate as our source of authority , as they borrow from our world view , that they will not make sense of their own world view .
Speaker 2That's why Absolutely , and of course , you show the contradictions . I do this in the book , right , you know , when you're talking about religious pluralism . Well , christianity believes that there is a God and that God has revealed himself in the person of Jesus Christ . Well , buddhism believes that there is no God . Yeah , those two things are mutually exclusive . Right , they cannot both be true . They can both be wrong , but they cannot both be true . So to the person who says your reality is not my reality , I point out examples like that to say , well , again , both of them can't be wrong . Right , but they can't both be right , right . Therefore , the idea that your reality is your reality and my reality is my reality cannot be something that we can stand upon . Your presupposition is broke .
Speaker 3Not broken , it's broken . That's beyond broken . Right , but with three syllables , yeah .
Speaker 6But oh , that's great .
Speaker 1You know , voday , I'd love you to speak to the dynamics involved between and God's word was just mentioned as authority between the abandonment of the authority of Scripture in the church and the resulting drift in the things like theistic evolution , the acceptance of homosexuality , transgenderism , critical race theory , women , pastors , right , so yeah draw that correlation there ?
Speaker 6Yeah , there is . And when you ?
Speaker 2see this . You see this in churches , and when I say churches , I mean you see this in individual congregations . You see this in denominational structures , all the time where there's a pattern . You don't start with women as pastors , you don't start with theistic evolution , you don't start with those things . It always starts with subtle shifts in relation to the authority and sufficiency of Scripture . Right , we start denying inerrancy and then we start denying sufficiency , and now , all of a sudden , we go to passages that are absolutely clear , and first we tweak them and then we outright deny them . Right , we
deny everything . We start talking about Paul's deficiencies you know , thinking about the women as pastors , paul's deficiencies and all these things that he didn't know , that he didn't understand , and even Christ's deficiencies , things that he didn't know , that he didn't understand . When you talk about homosexuality , the homosexuals , what's their argument now , after you get away from this sufficiency in the authority of Scripture ? Well , paul didn't understand sexual orientation right . He would have understood pedorasty , but he wouldn't have known or understood sexual orientation , and so , because of those limitations that he had , he couldn't have possibly been writing about that . Well , you and I go , wait a minute . You got a much larger problem , because now you're denying that the God who , by his spirit , inspired the writing of the Bible , was deficient to get across what he intended to get across . Again , you track it back and it goes back to the authorities and the sufficiency of Scripture .
Speaker 3every time , you know , and it's funny , because these same people who are claiming to hunger and thirst for truth , they don't like the taste of it when it's served up .
Speaker 6No , Well , here's what's important they want slushy man , they want slushy strawberries , they want slushy Essence . Yes , essence .
Speaker 4Here's the thing , though , is it's important for us , I think , to recognize the relationship between man and truth post-fall , because truth is an issue of the heart more than it is the head . Often , we talk about truth as though it's like you know you can type in an address in your Google Maps and it's going to take you there , but what we forget is that we don't pursue truth with our mind . We pursue truth with our heart , the things that we love , and I love to borrow from a non-Christian again , jonathan Haidt , in the Righteous Mind , uses great analogy , in which he says our heads and our hearts the relationship is like the president and the press secretary . The heart is like the president . It comes out , it makes a choice about the economy , about the way the world's going to work , and then it goes backstage and what comes out after that is the press secretary , the head , and the press secretary's job is to gather as much data as possible to defend the decision the president already made , and so he says like our heads work that way as well . We're sitting there trying to defend the decision our hearts have already made , which here is where it's important is , we see pastors their hearts start to drift , and so then their view of the gospel or their view of scripture starts to drift . How many ?
Speaker 2pastors who have changed their view on homosexuality start with a child in their home .
Speaker 6That came out as gay Sentiment Right .
Speaker 2And then the next thing you know they've done some mental and theological gymnastics and now they've reinterpreted scripture because of this experience with one whom they love .
Speaker 1Well , you know , we see this happen in other arenas as well . I mean , you even have theologians . Respect theologians . A loved one dies , who didn't know Christ , and then they're grappling with the fact that they're in hell and it's like ah well , it can't be true . That's where we have to be careful . As God's people , we can't go by sentiment . God has revealed truth and we have to stick with it . You know , vody , we often use the term we stand on the shoulders of giants . What are some of the lessons we can learn from our forefathers in the faith when it comes to not compromising the truth ?
Speaker 2One lesson and again I write about this in the book as well is that refusing to compromise on the truth brings suffering , and I've got a whole section where I deal with suffering . The book , by the way , is based on an exposition of Acts , chapter 4 . And so what I'm arguing is that the experience of Peter and John in a pre-Christian culture is a shadow of our experience in a post-Christian culture , and one of the things is that's where the whole idea of neutrality not being an option comes from , and also the idea that suffering is inevitable , because if our culture can't be neutral to us , then it has to marginalize us and it has to persecute us , because that's the only way that they can hold on for a little longer , right to the things that they're holding on to . So I think , first and foremost , when we look back , we have to recognize that people suffered , and sometimes they suffered greatly . Sometimes they lost their financial wherewithal and sometimes they lost their families and sometimes they lost their lives . We've got to be ready for that , and that's hard for us as Americans because , again , to go back to what we talked about before our foundations and the foundations of Western civilization it's our worldview , right . So , because of that . What we've had in Western civilization , and in the United States in particular , is an unprecedented period in history where Christianity was not persecuted but actually put center stage and flourished . So as Americans , really over our whole history , we've had an experience that's alien to the history of the church . In the history of the church , christians have been persecuted , we've been outsiders right , and so now as Americans , we've had this very different , you know , epoch of time and as a result of that we're soft .
Speaker 4Yeah , 100% we have no idea how to handle not being you know the guy , and this is where I actually get excited , because anytime well , I feel like there's a refining that's happening and what happens first , peter . Refinement means more purity right , more pure church more potent church . Yes , and I take hope in the first 300 years of Christianity , where it was significantly persecuted and yet it exploded . It was a revolution that changed the world forever , and so , without personal Bibles , that's exactly right , yeah , so like what's yeah . I mean , do you see hope in that thing ? Absolutely , you see hopefulness in persecution .
Speaker 2Absolutely , absolutely . Yeah , I definitely do , and I see hopefulness in a couple of things . And again , talking about the example here and I've thought about this more you know we've lived now for eight years in Lusaka .
Speaker 5Yeah .
Speaker 2I'll never be able to think about that word again , luska .
Speaker 6Luska . Well , I'm reading .
Speaker 1It's relative . You know , I mean my truth . Yes , yes , yes , yes .
Speaker 2But something interesting happens when you get away and I don't mean for a vacation , even for a vacation , but when you get away from your culture and your cultural moorings , see things that you hadn't seen before . Yeah , and there are a number of things that I've just come to realize and appreciate . For example , you know we talk about federalism . You know , People in Lusin , zambia . Zambia is the size of Texas , with half as many people , and so they always want to know what it's like in America . Yeah , and I always go , oh time out . You're doing with us what people do with Africa , right , People talk about Africa like it's one country right .
Speaker 6Yeah , that's good Instead of 55 , right .
Speaker 2Well , you know , over in Africa , eh , eh , eh , yeah , 55 countries . Well , in the United States there's 50 states . Yeah all right , christianity in Texas is not the same as Christianity in Maine .
Speaker 6Right .
Speaker 2Yeah , and one of the things that encourages me is that I've been in all of our 50 states . There are thousands of prophets who have not bowed the need of bail . We don't know most of their names . Yeah , Because they're shepherding . You know 50 , 75 , 100 people somewhere .
Speaker 6But they're faithful .
Speaker 2Amen , they're strong , they're solid , right and I'm encouraged by that , you know .
Speaker 3Boy . I forget who said it , but it was the modern day . Christian melts like a chocolate bunny in the heat of modern warfare . Let's replace that word Christian just with churchgoer . Yeah , and we're seeing , I think , less and less churchgoers , kind of like after 9-11 , when everybody just went to church . Yes , right Now it's like if you want to claim the name of Christ , take something . It's going to take something . There's a bullseye on you . Yeah .
Speaker 4And that's the move into post Judeo-Christianity , is because , like everybody you know , when it was a cultural phenomenon , like everybody wants Jesus , the Comforter , jesus , the Healer , jesus , the one that's going to give him a good marriage but Jesus Lord , lord of our lives , who demands our allegiance .
Speaker 2And I think about 9-11 and I think about some of those events that happened after 9-11 and some of the people who spoke after 9-11 , pastors being brought in to do different things at 9-11 , you know , just from the president on down , you know some of those things that were said in the days following 9-11 would get people impeached today Big time . You know . Yeah .
Speaker 1You know one of the things that's encouraged me . We've been doing a lot of ministry in Latin America and we were recently in Puerto Rico . Just hearing about a revival of expository preaching going on was just so encouraging Because again it goes back to the foundation of God's Word .
Speaker 6Amen .
Speaker 1So well , Vody , this has been great , Real quick . Can you tell us what's happening in Lusaka in terms of your ministry , so people can know how to pray for you ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean , we're still there plugging away at the African Christian University . We're still there trying to train up and raise up students who will be cultural leaders in Zambia and the South Central African region and beyond that's great brother , we're encouraged .
Speaker 1And how can people connect with you ? How can they get the book and find out more about what you're doing ?
Speaker 2Yeah you know , you can get the book everywhere that books are sold and wherever the places are Enjoy buying books . You can go to VodyBacomorg and you can do it there . But you know I like for people to go to bookstores , I like people to go in there and because a lot of times you know my books will be you know my last book was a national bestseller and you go into places that remain nameless , like Barnes , noble and it wouldn't even be there . There are books that were behind mine on the bestsellers list that would be out front and center . And I'd have to ask them and they'd have to go back to the back and pick up one of the two copies that they have in the whole store . Hide it under their jacket while they come and give it to me to buy . So I like for people to go and just you know , go do that .
Speaker 1Go press that . That's great . Well , brother , it's been a joy to have you on and we're encouraged by your stand for truth . Your boldness inspires God's people , so keep it up and I will look forward to connecting with you more Absolutely .
Speaker 4Thank you brother , it's been a pleasure . And put away the strawberry milkshakes and go get yourself a real strawberry .
Speaker 6Oh , get a strawberry , get the real thing .
Speaker 3Go get a bunch of them .
Speaker 5Love it All right , amen that was great .
Speaker 1If you can't say amen , say ouch . That's probably Vody's most famous quote . I use it often .
Speaker 5Love it .
Speaker 1Yeah , good stuff , I never heard that .
Speaker 5That sounds great , that's a great saying , yeah .
Speaker 1If you can't say amen , say ouch . It's so good I'll share it . Sometimes when I'm preaching , to hear the whole congregation go ouch . So it works .
Speaker 4But yeah , Every time I stub my toe I'm like amen yeah .
Speaker 1Mark wasn't that good with Vody .
Speaker 3Boy . I wasn't intimidated and being an X-Tone , but I wanted to be intimidated . His wealth of knowledge and his desire for holiness inside the church and with the family Just his desire to want to raise a godly family and have people around him raise godly families is so infectious . I absolutely love Vody .
Speaker 4After that interview I had , just like the strongest , craving for strawberry milk .
Speaker 1Wasn't that a good illustration ? Though that's good , the strawberry thing , it's wonderful . Yeah , who wasn't there , ray ?
Speaker 5Comfort . I wasn't there , yeah .
Speaker 1I got my chickens to look at Chickens , chickens , chickens 25 .
Speaker 4Yeah , you're up to 25 now . Yes , is this an addiction ? It is . Do we need to have like a I need counseling .
Speaker 1No , there's more hope for a heroin addict . What do they call it when they get ?
Speaker 4everyone in their room . Intervention , intervention . We need an intervention for you Seriously .
Speaker 1I love my chickens . I'm normal .
Speaker 6I didn't even mention it .
Speaker 1Hold on a second . Yeah , all right , friends . So sad to bring this to a conclusion , but we must please make sure to get Vody's book the Everloving Truth , and please stay our friends . Oh , and don't forget the starter kit , the Living Waters mug in the evidence study Bible at LivingWaterscom . Thank you for joining us , friends . We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast . We'll see you next time .