Do we almost need another Reformation in the sense of understanding the priesthood of all believers ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean , I think we could always use another Reformation , pray for revival , but yeah , that is the case . We need to understand that . That is our role . We are each ministers of the truth that we have been saved by . If you are reconciled to God , he's entrusted you with the ministry of reconciliation , second Corinthians 5 . And that's why we call people to evangelize . But at the same time , if he saved you by this Word , he's called you to speak this word Even in that same context of Royal Presid . 1 Peter 2, . He's called you out of darkness to proclaim His Excellencies You've been saved by an excellent God to proclaim His Excellencies not only to unbelievers , but to believers who need to hear of the God that they worshiped . He needs to study His character . Who need to hear of the Gospel by which they've been saved as a boon and a strength and a motivation unto holy living . So yeah , we really are ministering the things of God to one another .
Speaker 4Pardon my French . Uh-oh , you don't know French , did you see that ? Okay , now Oscar , why'd you say uh-oh , uh , just because I have no idea , because , pardon my French .
Speaker 1Usually means you're about to say something I don't want to hear . Right , it's usually cussing .
Speaker 4Yeah , I was going to say it . Where did that come from ? I don't know .
Speaker 3Pardon , my French Are the French known for cussing a lot , you silly frog leg I don't know what .
Speaker 4Silly frog leg Singular too .
Speaker 5I took four years of French . I don't know any bad words .
Speaker 3I took three . I did Sacré bleu as bad word . What did you say for ?
Speaker 5So what do you ?
Speaker 1do with it .
Speaker 4Wait a minute . Did you really just say something ?
Speaker 1Are we going to have to bleep that ? No , you didn't have to bleep it .
Speaker 4Pardon your French , pardon your .
Speaker 1French , your literal French .
Speaker 3It's actually translated to sacred bleu . It might be blasphemy or something .
Speaker 4I learned it when I was in school . I landed it not just say it .
Speaker 3You just don't think , do you ? That's your problem , oh boy .
Speaker 4Yeah , did that really just happen .
Speaker 5Oh it did , that's so funny .
Speaker 4Yeah , we better look that up and make sure it's not bad , because we may have to bleep it up .
Speaker 1All of our French listeners are like how could ?
Speaker 4I know , but seriously , where does that come from the French ? Oh , from France .
Speaker 1They have dirty mouths . Could you imagine a French pirate ?
Speaker 4Well , that's the thing I was thinking . French , it's such a cool and elegant sounding language . It's hard to imagine there being profanity in French . It's like German . German is such a beautiful language . I can't say , In fact I haven't written down here in my notes . German sounds like 100% cussing .
Speaker 3Basically , I've looked it up , sacré bleu . It just means it's an expression of surprise . Oh , oh sure , so you were wrong right Well yeah , well , it was what I was told .
Speaker 4You've been cussing at people in France this whole time , not knowing you weren't cussing .
Speaker 3I wonder if I just smiled back at me .
Speaker 4Yeah , that's crazy man . You think about profanity and I don't want to think about profanity .
Speaker 1He thinks a lot .
Speaker 3Life's a baffle without you saying that .
Speaker 4And , just seriously , the utter wickedness involved in man's depravity to think up some of the things that he thinks up .
Speaker 3Well , if some people would stop cussing , they'd say what they want to say in about a tenth of the time . Oh , so true .
Speaker 4Have you guys noticed the elevation of profanity in our culture Like ?
Speaker 3Want to give us an example . No , I mean , we Give an example .
Speaker 4We used to go . We'd go to the limited movies that we go to , which is hard these days , but the previews never had profanity in them , and now I'm starting to hear profanity even in those .
Speaker 3We're having to not go , as they're showing the previews , because and in headlines when you read the news , they leave out one little vowel . Thinking we don't know what it is when the vowel's left out , but it just says it .
Speaker 4Yeah , even some of the talk news channels . Now they'll throw in a cuss word here and there . You're seeing it happen with politicians .
Speaker 5And behind the pulpit , cussing pastors . No , it's so bad , oh , absolutely .
Speaker 3That's become . No , it's rear is not a cussing pastor .
Speaker 5It's not like every local church is a no , no , he's thinking of somebody very specific who ended up becoming known as the cussing pastor and then he got disqualified . Now he started up another church , yeah .
Speaker 4Yeah , Cussabytes Air quotes .
Speaker 1Oscar , how do you start a church when you're disqualified ? Yeah , that's great .
Speaker 4But I think there's something in the human heart that finds this , that's in . Is that what it's called S-I-N ? But that finds this twisted pleasure in saying something profane . I mean , something happens when someone utters a word like that , especially in a given setting . If it's more of a formal setting , Is that a shock value thing ?
Speaker 1You know , actually you bring up a really good point about something in our hearts because , if you think about it like , language is one of the greatest , most beautiful gifts that the Lord has given us . I mean , he chooses to reveal himself to us through the spoken word , through language . He chooses to unite us as people , as couples , as family , through language . He has sovereignly given us words in language to express ourselves . In other words , it's like a part of God's beautiful creation and his calling on man is to be gardeners , to make wonderful things with his already made things . And instead , we even take language and we contort it in such a way that it is ugly , pervert , perverted , oh well put .
Speaker 4Yeah , it's true . I mean when you think about life and death being in the power of the tongue . I mean the things that you can do to build people up with your words and , at the same time , destroy them . It's insane , yeah .
Speaker 3Endom , endom , yeah , Endom endom , endom , yeah .
Speaker 1And then there's the useless words .
Speaker 4Endom , endom . Yeah , all right , friends , this podcast is brought to you by no , I have a comment first . My brain is much . We've been friends . Look , we've been doing these tops and tails because we did the interviews at G3 , 11 of them and so we're sitting down to do all the tops and tails in one sitting . So if our brains are a bit jelly , you're going to have to describe what a top of tail is . Well , it means we did the interview . We're doing another one today that we'll tell you about in a second . We did the interviews , but we're sitting down and opening them up , introducing , and then we're closing them out 11 of them . So a comment from mom Patriot girl , for what is right . I find this podcast so informative and spiritually refreshing . I love the conversation and sharing of the gospel . I've already listened to five of these podcasts since last night , definitely a new favorite of mine . Thank you , living Waters Ministries , for all you do in the name of Jesus . May God continue to bless you all . Just one question , mom Patriot why did you give us three stars on this ? Three stars ?
Speaker 3Three stars .
Speaker 4It must have been a mistake . So if you're hearing this mom Patriot and you're still listening , I think you might be able to change that .
Speaker 1So please do Take it down to two . She's going to go back and I'm like this is why I gave you three stars and then you're going to regret it .
Speaker 3Oh , she changes it to one star .
Speaker 4Oh , no , yeah , keep them going Still at five stars , by God's grace , and great for her , from her , in spite of you , mom , patriot .
Speaker 3We love you anyway , thank you .
Speaker 4No , thank you for that . We're heartened and encouraged to know that you've been blessed by the podcast . All right , friends . This podcast is brought to you by the basic training course Boy . This is an oldie , I think , guys . 30,000 of these courses matter around the world . Remember , this isn't like a tract or just a book . This is a big course . It's a higher priced item , but 30,000 and a lot of these were purchased by churches and groups . So you think of all the people that have been trained in evangelism . And Ray this came from the Way of the Master TV program . It did I mean it did .
Speaker 3You're not saying that ?
Speaker 4Yes , it's wonderful Ray , so moved on long ago on that . We did that . I don't remember that , Ray . You remember the first . There was a first episode that you did record .
Speaker 3That was the tomato thing , wasn't it ? This is on Way of the Master . Yeah , we did it out on a mountain in Santa Monica Hills and it was really really hot . Kirk and I ended up looking like tomatoes because we got some there .
Speaker 4Yeah , it wasn't like there was some kind of screen .
Speaker 3And they used white reflectors , which made us cry . It was so bright , we had tears going and it was painful , but that's the way it was . Well , you've come away with this Because the reflectors heated up the sun on our faces and made us tomatoes , tomatoes .
Speaker 4Yeah , so make sure to check it out , friends . The basic training course . Don't forget the Living Waters Mog . I think we've got a new one coming soon .
Speaker 3We do the one that doesn't leak .
Speaker 4Yeah , tell us about it , oscar and I'll see you guys next time .
Speaker 1Is it ? Is it with the new ? Yeah , it is yeah . So it's got our faces on it . Sorry about that , but on the other side it has our new , our new closing phrase , which is the cure , the ultimate cure for insomnia .
Speaker 4It's got it . Some Z's on it too for the cool snoring .
Speaker 1That's right oh yes , that's right .
Speaker 3I like the way that looks . Yeah , they're fun .
Speaker 1Check them out on the website , because I think they look really cool .
Speaker 5Yeah , you know , I saw a mug inside of a store , a left-handed store for lefties , a what you know lefties have . Here we go .
Speaker 4This is true .
Speaker 5Those who are left-handed , and the way they fixed that was they drilled a hole on the right side . So if you drink it like a ray in person , it would Make a big mess , so you had to actually hold .
Speaker 4Are you serious , yeah ?
Speaker 5I would that is so clear Something Ray would what person is seriously why ?
Speaker 3why every left-handed person drinks the same way we drink , don't they ?
Speaker 4No , well , but the cup would not the logo and face ?
Speaker 5Oh , I see what you're saying three kids that are left-handed in my family .
Speaker 1See your kids , my brothers , my son and my wife are ambidextrous .
Speaker 3Really they could throw a ball with both hands not equally the Oscar .
Speaker 1They must have it pretty close really . And then what's crazy is like Levi writes with his left , perverse throwing with his right , but then kicks with his left foot .
Speaker 3How I feel physically sick at the sort of throwing a ball with my left hand . Yeah , just like . Oh , horrible about it .
Speaker 4Yeah , my grandson had in his left hand . I think he's easy first in our family . Yeah , arabs are cruel , they , if your child your child is left , they make them right-handed . How could you do that ? It's a culture , terrible . They just throw this ball a thousand times . Yeah , they tie up their hand or something . All right , friends , enough of the silliness , don't forget the living waters mug , the evidence study Bible , all at livingwaters Dot com . All right , we are continuing with the g3 interviews . We had our brilliant brother , mike Riccardi , from Grace Community Church and the master seminary . Join us , and boy , I like Mike .
Speaker 5I could . I could listen to him forever . I mean yeah .
Speaker 4And you know , I don't know if we mentioned it , but Mike is like a linguist , I think he would he became an expert in Italian . Wow obviously he knows the biblical languages , but I think he has a real knack for languages .
Speaker 3Well , I PA in France , speaks four languages .
Speaker 4Oh , man Well man .
Speaker 3Well , brain , is that man .
Speaker 4Well , yes .
Speaker 3Speak four languages . He was born in Mexico , came to the US , lived in no , no no , mexico .
Speaker 4Lived in Canada , moved to the US , married a Russian woman . Lives in France . Yeah , we love Manuel . All right friends . Mike Riccardi talked about how to effectively do outreach through the local church and other Brainiac who is involved in reaching the loss . So , without any further ado , here he is , our brother , mike Riccardi . No , no , snoring during this one . So we have had the fortune of being able to snag our good friend , mike Riccardi . Anyone ever call you Michael , they do . Your mom and dad , yeah some people wouldn't .
Speaker 2You're in trouble .
Speaker 4Yep , michael , as you can tell friends , we are still at g3 , hustle and bustle everywhere , although I got to say , unlike other places we've been , there isn't the circus of all kinds of craziness . Sometimes you get those at some of those conventions , but except for these two crazy guys , we bring the circus .
Speaker 5Yeah we are the circus . Yeah , there's a circus . I'm a dress like a circus , that's right and some of us dress never been yeah so , mike man , what a joy to have you with us .
Speaker 4Bro , we I think we held you hostage for a while at Living Waters back in the day for our equip segment .
Speaker 2Yeah , that was like a marathon . That was a great time . Yeah , glad to be with you guys .
Speaker 5Well , you know what I loved about that the most , before you give an introduction , there was we were going towards the end there and our Producer , eddie at the time , was just going wow , we're going long and I look over at Mike and Mike goes .
Speaker 2I Think I can literally talk about theology all night long and I went , my man , yeah Well , hey , listen , you get me started these what are better things to talk about , what are better things to be exercised about ? So I mean as long as somebody wants to listen .
Speaker 4Yeah , good stuff , mike , I want to . I want to first make it known that your role currently is a local Outreach ministries pastor at Grace Community Church . How long you been there ?
Speaker 2I've been in that position for over 11 years and I've been at Grace Church for 14 years .
Speaker 4Wow , what a run it's been . I mean seriously that to get the privilege to serve under One of the giants of our time . What's that been like working with John MacArthur , oh ?
Speaker 2man , amazing , the great privilege of my life . It's wonderful to hear John MacArthur the preacher . It's wonderful to sit under sound teaching weekend and week out . He blessed me long before he ever knew who I was , just through his ministry . But then to be under the ministry of John MacArthur the pastor
Wow . A lot of times people think because of his you know the hard-hitting nature , the no compromise nature of his preaching that he's somehow a hard person or Not not a great shepherd , and it's just the . It's just the opposite . He is the most gracious person I've ever met . And yeah , one of my favorite memories is when my twins are born . We had some some health health complications that kept my daughter in the NICU for seven weeks and he and Patricia came by and just kind of held the babies and prayed for them and kind of cared for us . And seeing John MacArthur hold my son , john , and then also prayed for Olivia in her time of trouble , I mean it was just ministers to you and and he's the same exact guy in the pulpit that he is out out of the pulpit . He is the . There's no switch . He turns on or off when you're with him . He you're the most important person in the room . He just gives it himself . It's been , it's been a stewardship that I recognize has been entrusted to me . It's not just been a Privilege , like a benefit to me , but I know that the Lord is saying like I have given you this Wonderful example of how ministry is to be carried out and now you know I'm gonna ask that of you .
Speaker 4Wow , yeah , it's interesting you say that because we talk about that a lot . You know , rate , rate comforts . The same way People think you know , because , especially standing on a soapbox , going toe-to-toe with atheists , he's just this like , yeah , most humble , gentle kind , actually hates confrontation . People won't realize that . About Ray , you know and again lives what he preaches , what you see is who he is behind the scenes . So well , what a , what a great privilege you get in that regard and I'm sure many are impacted because of his example in your life . I hope so . Yeah , well , mike , also you're involved at the seminary . What do you do there ?
Speaker 2Yeah , so now I'm a professor of theology there . I started that in I forget when , a couple years ago , january 21 Maybe . Where I get to ? Yeah , I get to teach theology to the seminary students and that's technically my full-time job now and we get to do the outreach stuff on the side .
Speaker 4That's great Good stuff . So we want to jump into some some questions about local church outreach . We're excited that you do that , because sadly not a lot of churches do , and the fact that Grace Community Church has someone in your role to facilitate that is just , I mean it . You know , with what we do , it's music to our ears . So , biblically speaking , first , what would you say ? The role of the local church is in the life of the believer .
Speaker 2Well , the local , the local church , is God's plan for the , the nations , in this era , right in this age . He's going to make disciples via the local church . We're gonna go out , we're gonna speak his gospel , whereby enemies are turned into friends , where those who are haters of God are turned into lovers of God by the proclamation of the gospel , and when those , when God is pleased to give grace and grant salvation , then the local church gathers those who have turned to Christ from sin , into these local churches , where they're cared for , where they're equipped , where they're taught , certainly first where they're , where they're baptized , right , baptizing and teaching them . All that I have commanded you , and , and , and . So the local church is the life of the believer , it's the family of God . There is no , there is no Christianity without the local church
.
Speaker 1Yeah , it's good kind of a follow-up question to that is what do Christians who don't attend a local church , who are Unfortunately satisfied , belosin these sermons online ? What are they missing out on ?
Speaker 2the Christian life period . I mean even that leaving that concept of the Christians who don't attend a local church sounds . It sounds like jumbo shrimp to me .
Speaker 5It sounds it sounds like an oxymoron .
Speaker 2I have a serious . I have serious questions about the , the faith of anybody who professes Christ and Doesn't join themselves to a local body . Because you know the one who loves the Father loves the child born of him 1 John 5 . And the reality is , everyone who's united to Christ is also united to everybody else who's united to Christ . And you know , your profession of love for sort of this invisible universal body of Christ rings hollow when you won't devote yourself in meaningful accountability to a particular expression of that universal body . Look , I understand that not every church has a sound , that not everybody has a sound church in their area , but what's more important than that ? I mean you need to get up and move . You know , look for a job in a place where you can build your family around a sound ministry of the gospel . So watching sermons online , what are you missing ? You know it's not . Church is not a movie theater where I hear instruction . You know , church is the living , breathing body of Christ where the one and others are practiced , where the Word of God is not just broadcast to you as if in sort of shotgun form , but that it's applied to you specifically , with the care of a shepherd who knows your life and who says you know , we're all more apt to judge ourselves more leniently , we're all more apt to say , oh yeah , I'm doing fine in that , I'm faithful in that area and have blinders to where our deficiencies are . So , brothers and sisters who know your life , pastors and elders who know your life and can say , yeah , you heard that sermon and you amend it from beginning to end , but your life doesn't quite match that . Let me bring this particular word to bear in this particular aspect of your life , so that now I'm not just agreeing with sound theology , I'm living it . I'm forced to look at my life , turn from my sin and follow after Christ in the day by day .
Speaker 4Yeah , mark , we're always talking about that the value of the church and the life of the believer . How bankrupt we'd be without the church .
Speaker 5Yeah , you know , covid gave us a glimpse into that and , sadly , what we've seen is people leaving the church and now are doing church online . What does that mean ? I'm doing church online ? I have a pastor . I've never met him . Yeah right , I love these guys . Listen , you're not loving them because you're not listening to what they're saying . I mean , if they're really good , solid teachers and pastors and shepherds , overseers , bishops , these people who want to really speak into our lives , they're going to tell you go be part of the local church . That's what they're going to tell you . They're going to call you to repentance , that you need to become accountable to the people that are within your local sphere of where you live .
Speaker 1You know what .
Speaker 5Maybe you need to move . Maybe you need to move into an area and this is in God's honor , we're God's guides you provide we say it all the time he can lead you and guide you into an area where there's sound doctrines , sound theology , and where you can serve , where people can use the giftings that you have now to serve to a capacity and to a degree for which you are designed to give . Remember that we have , say , an evangelist . An evangelist , though he should share his faith , an evangelist , by and large , will equip other people how to share their faith . Of course he's sharing his faith , but he's going to multiply after himself .
Speaker 1The thing that's interesting to me in the rise of churchless Christians I'm using air quotes for those who can't see is that at that same time , there are so many people who are reporting access levels of loneliness and depression and isolation and there are so many people who are like I want a stronger Christian faith . I want to feel experience , know God better , but I'm struggling and they're not connecting the dots Like God has saved you out of anonymity into gospel community so that he could do his work in and through you and if you're listening to sound preaching .
Speaker 2it's going to create an appetite for that in you , and so imagine , like the dissonance . There I'm listening to sound preaching . I think that that's what church is , and in the midst of that , God is creating and sanctifying my affections . So I'm longing for the community that local church ministry provides and is designed to give me , but at the same time , I'm refusing to do that . It's like listening to somebody talk about an amazing meal they had while fasting .
Speaker 1You know what I mean you just say oh , I'm really hungry .
Speaker 2I wish I had somebody to satisfy my hunger , but I can't go out to eat , I can't do it . I can't do it . I mean , that's yeah , you're shooting
yourself on the foot . There are commands of the New Testament that cannot be obeyed , apart from meaningful membership to a particular local body .
Speaker 4Yeah , and Mike , on that note , you know consumerism is at an all time high and today I think we have , more than ever , the rise of the consumer Christian . You know I go to get , but I'd love you to speak to what the responsibility is of the Christian to and through the local church .
Speaker 2Oh yeah , I mean . Paul says you know , it's my joy to be , to spend and be expended for your souls . He talks about dying every day , bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus , so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our mortal body . The way that we give our lives away in Christianity in a way , I mean obviously we don't do it the way Jesus did it . He gave his life , you know , for the as a substitute for sinners . But we are called to follow him in the laying down of our lives for the sake of the building up of the body of Christ . Your life is given to you as a stewardship , to give away in the service of presenting every man complete in Christ . And that's not just for pastors , right . The pastors equip the saints to do the work of the ministry and then those saints practice the one another's and sharpen one another as iron sharpens iron so that eventually we are all putting away sin more faithfully , putting on righteousness more faithfully . You're designed to go into the local church and pray for your pastors and pray for your fellow Bible study members . And to speak the word of God unto the edification of fellow sinners who you know need encouragement and who need instruction . You're there to help people move . You're there to provide counsel when a child apostatizes or dies , or when to be in a wedding party , when people get married and celebrate the joys of life as well . Again , like you're there to serve your brothers and sisters , to give your life away to make them all that they ought to be and they to make all you ought to be , unto the glory of Christ .
Speaker 1How helpful is the Reformation in this ? Because , as you're talking , I'm thinking back to , like reading so much of the Reformation was about re-emphasis on the priesthood of all believers and you know people went to church back then thinking , oh well , the sacred is what they're doing over there and we're here to observe and maybe glean a piece of it . But then the Reformers came along and said no , no , no , the priesthood of all believers , the things that are happening in the church , happens in the body , in the pulpit . So how helpful , like do we almost need another Reformation in the sense of understanding the priesthood of all believers ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean , I think we could always use another Reformation , pray for revival , but yeah , that is the case . We need to understand that . That is our role . Right , we are each ministers of the truth that we have been saved by . If you are reconciled to God , he's entrusted you with the ministry of reconciliation 2 Corinthians 5 , and that's why we call people to evangelize . But at the same time , right , if he's saved you by this word , he's called you to speak this word . Even in that same context of Royal Priests , at 1 Peter 2 , it says he's called you out of darkness to proclaim his excellencies You've been saved by an excellent God to proclaim his excellencies not only to unbelievers , but to believers who need to hear of the God that they worshiped , to study his character . Who need to hear of the Gospel by which they've been saved as a boon and a strength , motivation unto holy living . So yeah , we really are ministering the things of God to one another .
Speaker 4Yeah , you know , mike . You used the word serve and service a few times in what you were saying . What steps should Christians take to discover the specific areas of the church that they're most fit to serve in , because that's a big part , obviously , of us being part of the body ?
Speaker 2Yeah . So I mean first I would say , join yourselves in meaningful membership to a local congregation where you're basically asking overseers , elders , qualified men of God to keep watch over your soul and to give an assessment of your character . And then , once you do that , where you've basically invited their oversight into your life , then ask them what you might be able to do , and I think they'll probably tell you , well , what are you interested in doing ? And so part of discerning your gifting and you're sort of where God is equipping you to serve starts with desire . It doesn't end with desire , but it starts with what do I want to do , don't ?
Speaker 4overthink it .
Speaker 2Right , yeah , and so then , if you want to do something , bring it up to those who are in charge of that thing . Hey , I might be interested in joining you on this particular ministry .
Speaker 1Like the golf outreach Right , yeah , there you go , let's join the golf outreach .
Speaker 2And so you go and you do it , and then the question becomes is there benefit to the body of Christ through which you've just done so ? Not only do you enjoy it , not only has God given you a desire for it , but is he blessing his people through your efforts ? And if so , and if you're overseers , affirm your giftingness and your character for that particular ministry , then boom , you've got it . So , desire , character , gifting .
Speaker 5There's an assumption that I mean we throw that word out there , but there's just an assumption because it's within our circles and that is membership . But we saw that there's a lot of non denominations denominations out there that don't require church membership . You just want to come and be part of our church . You're part of our church . However , you want even to define that . I'd love for you to talk for just a moment on the importance of membership and why do we have membership specifically ?
Speaker 2Yeah , absolutely so . I mean , first of all , in the book of Acts you have , you know , the three thousand were added to their number . The two thousand were added to their number . Somebody was counting , and it was more than just heads . On a Sunday morning it was oh , okay , you want to follow the Messiah as well , you want to be among us ? You believe that what happened here in Jerusalem in these last days was , you know , the ends of the ages coming upon us and the long promised coming one coming and fulfilling all these prophecies . Right , yes , yes , I believe that that requires some kind of interaction and some kind of and , yeah , I'm happy to stay here in Jerusalem from where I journeyed from in order to be part of the community of the New Covenant people of God . And so the apostles needed to be able to discern these people are legitimate . So there was some sort of interview you know whether it was the apostles themselves or the deacons or whoever it was engaging . There was some sort of referendum on yes , this person is a follower of Christ , let's baptize him in Adam to our number . Then you get like when people start moving from place to place . You hear about letters of commendation in the ancient world in the decades following , where someone's going to go from the church of Jerusalem to the church of Corinth and you're going to have references in the New Testament to you know , receive this so-and-so , he's refreshed me in the Lord , or you know his faith is the same as ours and take him into your number . Treat this man like this . Well , they would give letters of recommendation from elders to elders so that they knew this wasn't a huckster trying to take advantage of the hospitality of good-willed people , but this is a brother who we need to serve . How do they do that ? They needed to know the character of those people . And then when you think about what it means to be a shepherd , and not just like a CEO or a manager but Hebrews 13 , 17 says obey your leaders and submit to them as those who will , who keep watch over your souls . They do this as those who will give an account . So we're going to actually have to stand before Christ to give an account for those who have come to us and said I want you to be my shepherd in Jesus' name . And so if you just kind of show up on , if you don't have membership , right , people show up to your church on Sunday , the first Sunday of the month , but then they don't come back for another two , and then they can maybe come back for the fourth , and then it's two months before they come back . Are you accountable for that sheep or not ? And if you are , my goodness , that's a very fearful thing for me to be accountable to somebody who hasn't even come to me and said yeah , I want to entrust myself to you . And if I am accountable for those people and they don't first come to me and say be accountable for me now , am I having to exercise a heavy handedness with somebody Like , hey , you showed up , so I'm guessing you want me to oversee your Christian life ? Well , wait a second . No , I don't want that . Get out of my business . It becomes unworkable , it's impossible . So , church membership while there's no passage of the New Testament that says this is how church membership is to go , you sign this application . It's assumed and presumed upon in every New Testament book .
Speaker 1I think there's two often questions that come about in our process of introducing church membership to new believers or believers that went to churches that did not have membership . And the first is there's this like aversion to authority . There's like this just feels authoritative and structured , and the first thing for us , the way we say , is hey , listen , the authority assigned by God to the local church , when done in a biblical manner , is for his glory and your good . There's nothing , there's no need to revolt against godly biblical authority that is given to you as a gift . It's the first thing we say . And the second thing is there's also people view their membership almost you mentioned consumeristic earlier . There's like , well , I'm going to be here , but you know , it's like a Netflix account . I've got Netflix , but you know , as soon as Amazon Prime comes out with a new show , I'm going to cancel Netflix and go over here . And often there are so many people that treat their membership at their church in the same way , like , as soon as I hear preaching , that's more fun , or music , that's better , and so the way we describe it , this isn't like a Netflix membership , this is like a family membership . You are committing to us and we are committing to you to both know you and love you and pursue sanctification with you .
Speaker 4Yeah , and you know from a practical standpoint . You think about the protection of the church . You bring someone into your number , you allow them to serve . You have no idea what their theological perspective is on doctrine . You have no idea where they stand morally and then you have no recourse to be able to call them to account or to remove them from something , because everyone who comes is automatically a member . You know what I mean . So it's really tragic when you look at the byproduct of what's resulted because of that .
Speaker 5It's kind of hard to excommunicate somebody who isn't a member .
Speaker 2Sure , I'll just leave before it gets too hot . The first Thessalonians 5 says we request of you , brethren , that you appreciate those who have charge over you in the Lord . So the concept of having charge over another in the Lord is an explicitly biblical notion . And look , there are authority submission structures built throughout life . You know , children submit to parents , Wives are called to submit to their husbands , All of us as citizens are called to submit to the government . And in the civil sphere , you know , we do that because we recognize things can't function otherwise . So when God introduces this other authority submission structure in , you know , between church members and their overseers , it's as much for their good as it is for the good of families , the good of marriages , the good of societies , how we're going to function otherwise . And yeah , and when ? For me , I mean , I know now I occupied the position of authority , so it could seem a little bit self-serving , but even when I didn't , I was always eager to say I want to make this oversight that you have , this stewardship that you have over my soul , a joy and not a grief . Hebrews 13.17 says that too . So I want you to be able to have your job done easily . Because what does the writer of Hebrews say ? Because if you let them do this with joy and not with grief , otherwise this would not be profitable for you . Right , right , it's to the sheep's benefit that the shepherds are joyfully laboring over them and caring for them and watching out for them . I'm blind to my own sins , my own corruptions . I'm more apt to be lenient with myself where I shouldn't be , and I need the watchful eye of somebody trained in the Word to be able to come alongside and say no , brother , you're out of step . You know they're not here to give me a hard time or rain on my parade or just sort of exert authority over me . They're here to say no , you're out of step . I want the best for you and you need to get back in line .
Speaker 4Amen , Mike .
I want to get into outreach . What would you say are the main areas of outreach that a church should be engaged in ?
Speaker 2Main areas . You should be preaching the gospel in whatever area the Lord , you know , providentially , opens to you . I mean at our church . We have , I think , the heart and soul of a local outreach ministry , and a local church should be door-to-door evangelism . So , yeah , where my church is situated is in a neighborhood and there are neighbors that walk by my church , that drive by my church . I don't want to drive past them to go to do evangelism somewhere else if I'm not already engaging them in some way . Now they say , hey , leave me alone , then I'll move on right . But first of all I want to making sure that my neighbors know that there's a local church there that preaches the gospel , that loves Jesus and wants to serve them .
Speaker 5Mike , what does that look like ? You knock on the door . Yeah , the first thing you say is I'm not a jealous witness . Yeah right , what do ?
Speaker 2you say . I had a friend who summarized it with the acronym NEW right , your name , your establishment and what you're doing there or why you're there . And so , hi , my name is Mike . I'm from Grace Community Church . You might notice the church that makes it difficult to cross the street on Sunday morning .
Speaker 5You .
Speaker 2Yeah , and we're just . We're here with several of our friends , Just want to talk with people about the gospel . Do you guys go to church ?
Speaker 4And then that starts a conversation . Yeah , no , it's good . Now what are some of the things you guys do at Grace ? I mean , I was reading about a prison ministry and you guys , you guys also do outreach on the behalf of life right , the abortion clinic . Absolutely . Tell us about that .
Speaker 2Yeah . So , after your door-to-door just talking to your neighbors , I think that the most important ministry that we could have is to , you know , go on outside of abortion clinics and preaching the gospel and offering help to those who would , you know , be willing not to kill their children . Right , it's the . It is the preeminent social injustice of our day . It's the . It's the issue that takes the most life at the highest rate of the most defenseless people . And so I think that kind of rockets it to the top of our list of our priorities . And we go , ten minutes away , there's an abortion clinic chemical and surgical abortions twice a week , and so we just we send decoys in there to find out when those are , because they change the dates and times on us , but right now it's Wednesdays and Fridays at 8 am to 10 am . So we send a team there every time and we're engaged people on the way into the parking lot , we're engaged people on the street as they pass by and we're actually preaching with the use of directed amplification into the waiting room of an abortion clinic , and people have come out and said , and we asked them you know , why are you coming out ? And they say well , because of the preaching that we heard through the window and we've been able to get pictures of babies saved . And people come to the church . They get diapers and baby clothes and things like that . We partner with a gospel-centered pregnancy center in the area about ten minutes from there . They're staffed by some members of Grace Church , led by former members of Grace Church .
Speaker 4Is that the banquet Ray spoke at yes A while ago , open Arms .
Speaker 2Pregnancy Clinic , and so we have places to send them for an ultrasound . We have places to send them for diapers and clothes . We've thrown baby showers for people who have chosen not to kill their children .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 2So that's a huge ministry and it's really something to be preaching the gospel and really the Lord's judgment , so close to what you know is happening in there .
Speaker 5And it's just it's in a very emotional , tumultuous ministry , but God gives grace and so should the local church have some sort of a fund , a benevolent fund I don't know what it is for single moms or for people in need ? I mean , it seems to me that we know that pro-life clinics outnumber abortion mills , but the local church is not doing enough Right . What can the local church do ?
Speaker 2Right . I think that , more than anything , you need people and more than a fund . I mean , I think that that's a good thing if you say I trust these people to administrate these funds to people who need them , as judged by sound thinking , that's great . But more than even that , local churches need to equip their members to be hospitable to women who show up having nothing to do with church , not really getting anything , who might otherwise be looked down upon for being a single mom , you know , or a single pregnant woman , or something like that .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2And to just say no , no , no . We create a culture of welcoming those people , to minister to them and you need something . Come over , let's have dinner . You have dinner at my house . I'm going to throw you the baby shower . I'm going to get you the diapers . You need that sort of a thing . It's not sort of throw money at an invisible account as much as it's be ready to open your home and then meet specific needs .
Speaker 1Yeah , that actually brings me to Mike , the next question I had for you , but in a more natural way , which is so many churches . They have especially people I know who follow our ministry . They're passionate about outreach and evangelism and they might have a team or two or three , but it isn't a church culture thing . How do you go from this is something that this few does at my church to this is a part of the DNA of our church .
Speaker 4Yeah , just a question how do you inspire the people to get involved in outreach ?
Speaker 2Yeah , it's something that you're always
doing . No churches arrived at that because you're always bringing in folks who are newer to Christianity and who are in the beginnings of discipleship . So there's a part of it where it's like come and sit and soak for a second and learn how to be a Christian and then , once you do that , then when the maturity gets there , then they start looking around going , okay , how can I give this blessing to others ? So part of it really , from top to bottom , it's we preach Christ . The answer is we preach Christ . You preach Christ . You preach your people full of Jesus , and it will be the kind of thing where it just oozes out of people they talked about . Spurgeon said you preach John Bunyan and he bleeds Biblene . Right , if you preach people full of a compassionate Savior , god , a very God who took to himself the weakness of human flesh , yet without sin , and who endured the temptations of Satan , the mockery of the people he came to save , the punishment of the cross . The wrath of God rose again in victory over all of it for the sake of your soul , so that he could reconcile you to the God you alienated by your own sin and deserved to perish for right . If you preach them full of that gospel , it can't be long before they say I gotta say this to somebody . Let me tell you the wonderful things that Jesus has done for my soul , and so it's that , coupled with , if you were saved by a gospel wherein your Savior counted himself nothing and preferred the interests of others to his own , can you show that grace that you've been shown . You've received that grace vertically from heaven to you . Now can you bend that grace out horizontally to others , not because you're trying to earn salvation , but because it's been so graciously given to you . If you preach them full of that , they'll be asking how can I do this ? Direct me . And that's what we are . We're facilitators of obedience .
Speaker 4Yeah , now , mike , I know there's people listening that are saying , well , I am involved in local outreach through my church , but , man , I feel so inadequate , I feel like I fail so much while doing it . I may be feeling really burned out . What words of encouragement would you have for them ?
Speaker 2Well , you're certainly not alone . I mean , I think that we all fail at it . We have an interaction . We say , man , I should have said this way , or I wish I would have thought of that then . And you know what ? That is just part of growth , that is just part of doing it . Get up back on the bike and do it again . You know what I mean . You fall off the horse , get up and ride again . You learn by making mistakes and bettering them , correcting them as you go on . And in terms of burnout , look , there's no shame in saying I've been giving every single Friday night to preaching at the train station or whatever it is , or going and tracking at the mall or whatever . And I actually need some time for my family , I need some time for a different ministry . It's fine to get a respite , it's fine to take a breather that way , as long as you recognize that evangelism is not just . I attend this program on this night to do this thing for the believer . Just because you don't attend a particular evangelistic ministry doesn't mean that you're not evangelizing in your entire sort of the warp and woof of your life . You go to the grocery store , you go to the bank , you go here or there , you interact with unbelievers and it should be the tenor of your life to regularly speaking the gospel to unbelievers , even just as you interact . If you need a break from a particular program , take that break and just do it under the oversight of your leaders so that they can encourage you if they think you're being lazy . You know what I mean . If you need a rest , take a rest Just don't get indolent and build some accountability where you can get back into the ring soon after .
Speaker 5How does somebody approach their pastor who doesn't support evangelism ? And you have these congregants that are just saying man , I want to go out , Maybe I'd love to make an announcement . I can't make an announcement . How do I approach my pastor ? We get that question all the time .
Speaker 2I would ask your pastor to ask if you can take him to lunch or if you invite him to dinner and just ask him . Hey , listen , I have a desire to see a ministry like this happen in the church . I'm willing to do whatever it is that I need to do to bring it about . What do you think about that ? I would want to find the aversion . I don't like this kind of ministry . Open-air preachers are weird , right ? So I don't want my church to have open-air preachers , or is it ? oh , I'd be glad for open-air preaching . I just don't think you need to be doing that because you are less mature than you evaluate yourself to be . I would want to invite that kind of criticism and just open the floodgates and not be offended . Try to convince your pastor you won't be offended by his evaluation Hard for me to say , aside from what those responses would be . But just , I think , go in there , believe the best . I want to help , I want to be part of the solution . But maybe , if you think that I shouldn't be part of the solution , like then , can you help me get to where I could be of the maturity level to do something like that yeah , mike .
Speaker 4what part of local outreach are you most personally passionate about , and why ?
Speaker 2Oh , my goodness , I think well , in my role , it's training the members who are genuinely gifted by God to do that ministry , to just have an outlet where they can exercise their gifts . Though it's been my job to oversee that department and make sure everything runs well , and though I love preaching the gospel and I'm glad to have made that a discipline in my life , I don't know that I have the gift of evangelism . My buddy Sheldon over there , he's got the gift of evangelism for sure . I'm not sure that that's a particular gift that God has given me , but I'm glad to be obedient and open my mouth and speak the gospel . So for me I think for me something that Church is what is the great , the best part for me is to Take folks who are gifted like that but who are a little bit unwieldy and set them on , and who are zealous but set them on the right track and sort of hone that zeal into a righteous expression .
Speaker 4That's great . Well , brother , you have a new book coming out . I'd love you to tell the people the title and where they can find it .
Speaker 2Okay , yeah , so I just published a book with whip and stock , called to save sinners . It's from the language of 1st Timothy , 1 , 15 . Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners , of whom I am the chief , and it's actually my , my doctoral dissertation on the extent of the atonement . So the controversial question of for whom did Christ die ? It's a little bit heady , it's . It's my refutation of a mediating view between Unlimited and limited atonement . So I defend classic , particular redemption . And , yeah , if you're interested in seeing and understanding what it is that Christ accomplished on the cross and why , saying that it was for the elect alone doesn't diminish evangelistic zeal or anything else , that would be a book . That'd be great . You can . You can order it , obviously , directly from the publisher . You can get it on Amazon . If you're here at the G3 conference , you can pick it up at one of the tables , the G3 press table or at the speaker book table .
Speaker 5Yeah , yeah , and they might look again is what to save sinners , save sinners .
Speaker 4Yeah . And Mike , by the way , friends , is now a bonafide movie star . You can see him in the essential church we saw in the theater .
Speaker 2We'll talk more with Phil Johnson about that , but what a great movie man , yeah it was a joy to be a part of that and we'll see that on tomorrow night . I think they're gonna show it .
Speaker 4Yeah , so make sure to look that up , friends , probably for download . The essential church . Mike , how can people find out more about your ministry ? Getting in contact with your ministry ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I just . I mean grace churchorg is the link to grace Community Church in Los Angeles . My my sermons are on a website called the grace life pulpit calm , where I share a fellowship group of basically an adult Sunday school class alongside Phil Johnson , where both of our sermons are all there , and you can follow me on Facebook and Twitter .
Speaker 4Yeah , check them out , friends , Mike . Thanks for joining us , brother , this was awesome . I wish we had like 10 hours . I know we could keep going .
Speaker 2Thanks for having me guys to do a part two .
Speaker 4It's always a blessing , all right Interesting , to hear someone like Mike say hey , I don't think I'm particularly gifted in this or it's my strength , but I'll still do it and trust the Lord with it . That really heartened me to hear that . Hmm .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think we can all apply it to ourselves too , because the Lord calls us to be diligent , no matter what our strengths and weaknesses are . Yeah , you know what I think of ?
Speaker 5when I think I've got a friend who's a doctor we do and he said he spent his entire 20s inside the library just studying , from 20 all the way to 28 . All he did was study , study , study , take test and became a doctor , I think of that kind of with microcard . Yeah right , so many people have so many different hobbies and he's just kind of chosen that his hobby be one of . I'm going to study God's word . I want to get a right early on in life so that I can teach people the rest of my life . And that's not to say he doesn't study anymore , obviously , but he is definitely a student of God's word , somebody that I deserve to emulate .
Speaker 4Yeah , and , and a brilliant writer as well . We mentioned the book with him on the podcast . I'm sure we'll see a lot more from him and Ray , how encouraging that there's a church that has someone who's dedicated to local outreach . You know , oftentimes churches are focused on missions send people out , but they're not doing anything at home , and so when those people go out , they replicate the church there and don't do anything where they're planted and they just look to send Other people out .
Speaker 3Yeah , all it needs is one person . They can stir a whole church . You , if you've got the , the enthusiasm to do it , you can get a group around you and get that group to Enthusiasm . Snoring or yawning , should I say is contagious by your name .
Speaker 4Here we go .
Speaker 3Oh , but so is enthusiasm . Your zeal is provoked . Three many scriptures say and enthusiasm provokes Enthusiasm . It's like a fire . So one person in a local church can get enthusiastic about the lost , them again talking about a moral responsibility To reach out to them . It can stir the conscience and the whole church . Amen .
Speaker 4All right , friends . Well , there you have it . Don't forget podcast of living with dollars , calm , with your thoughts and comments , and all that good stuff . Remember to give us ratings and Comments and don't forget the basic training course , the Living Waters mug , the evidence study Bible . All living waters , calm . Thank you for joining us , friends . We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast , the ultimate cure for , for insomnia . Don't do it .
Speaker 5Oh .