Everywhere scripture portrays Christians as soldiers . You know , we're in a spiritual war , and though our weapons are not carnal , they're not of the flesh . We are in a war and the idea is to tear down these ideological strongholds . This is the way Paul describes it in 2 Corinthians 10, . We're tearing down ideas , satanic strongholds of false ideologies in which people are imprisoned , and so our enemy in the war is Satan and his doctrines , not the people . The idea is to liberate people from those fortresses of lies , and once you see , that's what we're doing here . It's not . We're not out to hurt people or , although worldly people will complain , you've hurt my feelings now because you refuse to use my pronouns or recognize my identity or whatever . I'm more concerned about the truth , and the best thing I can do , the most loving thing I can do for someone who is imprisoned by lies , is to try to tear down that stronghold of a false ideology that they're trapped in , and when you realize that , I think it's kind of easier to be bold .
Speaker 3I've never personally had one , but I hear the turducken is to die . For you guys ever had a turducken ?
Speaker 2I've had not a turducken , but something similar , because turducken is turkey duck chicken , one inside the other , I think . I had one , but instead of duck it was like ham or something . It's like I'm in a hybrid , really .
Speaker 5Yeah so seriously put a duck . Within a turkey You've never had a turducken , right , yeah , but it's pretty white Duck .
Speaker 3you put a chicken inside a duck , a duck inside a turkey .
Speaker 5This isn't live , this is dead , this is real .
Speaker 2It's going to say they're cooked and then put the turkey instead of a cow Right .
Speaker 3But yeah , it's like the Russian nesting dolls of food I'd eat that Would you . Oscar , oscar , what would you not eat , seriously ?
Speaker 2I feel like I owe everything . One try .
Speaker 5My mind , that's what you won't eat .
Speaker 3Like everything .
Speaker 2If I was in the right context Like if you brought me a thousand year egg whatever those things are called and you're like , here we are on the podcast , eat this , I'd have a really hard time . But if I was in a country that had those as a delicacy and I was having a meal with a family and they're like , look , we brought this You'd have to . I would eat it . Why would ?
Speaker 4you have to .
Speaker 5Well , I'm not saying I'd have to , you could actually do sleight of hand with an egg Pretend yeah .
Speaker 4You don't want to offend them , but what happens about my being offended ?
Speaker 1I'm offended that you offered that to me .
Speaker 4No , your offense wins over my offense .
Speaker 2It is yeah , my offense always wins over your offense , mark .
Speaker 3Yeah , that's the way , it is Okay . What's a thousand year egg ? I've heard of it . It's an egg that's a thousand years old . Stop . No , aren't they sort of soaked in cow urine yeah .
Speaker 5Soked in cow urine or something like that .
Speaker 2I thought it was vinegar .
Speaker 5No same thing .
Speaker 3Why ? Why do people eat this stuff ?
Speaker 4Eggs , also known under a wide variety of names . They're a Chinese egg-based culinary dish made by preserving Doug chicken or quail eggs . And then I have to hit the link to go further .
Speaker 3Now I want to know this . I was watching something the other day where they were showing a cheese that was being cut open like one of those big round cheese things . Oh yeah , after like I don't know years , I've always wanted to do that . Okay . And then he's like he cuts it and then he opens it and he's like , oh , the smell is saying , oh , ice , yeah , what sort of eggs in Chinese , chinese from Australia .
Speaker 5No , it's a Frenchman would do that .
Speaker 3Yeah , no , I don't know , this guy was British or something , but I want to know who was the first guy that discovered that you aged cheese and it tastes good , because I mean it had to be an accident .
Speaker 2Okay , actually I kind of know the etymology of this . They wanted to transport cheese on a caravan and so they stuck it in the inner linings of a cow to preserve it , and that also is what gave it the rind and flavor . And now that's sort of like how that developed . It started like that .
Speaker 3What do you mean ? You're saying there's some cheese they wrap up in a cow intestine In the lining of a cow . Yeah , seriously yeah . Don't tell me which one that is , because maybe I've eaten it and I like it . It's called goat cheese . I don't know what it's called . Goat cheese is good , mark , yeah .
Speaker 4I love goat cheese . No , I was just going to read you the definition . They had an etymology of cheese and we're all came to it Read it please . I'm actually very bored , as I read it .
Speaker 3No , no , no Read .
Speaker 4Mark .
Speaker 5He means it out loud , oh out loud .
Speaker 4Yes , I'm sorry . The word cheese comes from the Latin word cacis , which is also the origin of the word cacion . The earliest source of the word cheese is the Proto-Indio-European root quat which means to ferment or become sour .
Speaker 5The word cheese first appears in the middle of the ocean . Stop , Mark . That's why I didn't read it . So when did the word cheese first appear ?
Speaker 2Chis , you've had cow lining cheese . You've had it . What it's ? Parmesan , Stop . Parmesan cheese is made with animal rennet , which is an enzyme that comes from the fourth lining of the stomach of animals , typically calves , goats or lambs .
Speaker 3Parmesan for you ? I had no idea .
Speaker 5So David took cheese to his brothers .
Speaker 4So that's before Cheese existed , before written language . According to chat , gpt .
Speaker 3But some people are really into cheese . It's like wines , or , like you know , todd Freel one time sent me a basket of cheese and it was . I mean , some of it was unreal . It was so unbelievably delicious it was fake , you're saying fake cheese .
Speaker 2My buddy Philip Moore in France . He's a pastor , he loves cheese and he promised , when we're over there for the Olympics that he's going to give me a tour de cheese .
Speaker 3Ooh , All right , you got to take us on that tour . Oscar Film it , yeah . So guys . Okay , I mentioned the Turducken , but I think what you two need , Oscar and Mark , is the Burke Schnitzel , beef pork and wiener schnitzel .
Speaker 2Look at how excited it's , not just a hot dog .
Speaker 3Basically , you admit , oscar , a hot dog is just made of a bunch of parts , of a bunch of , I mean , some of them absolutely If it tastes good .
Speaker 2I feel like I just rather not know the one you like , Wiener schnitzels , I don't know what . Wiener schnitzel is made of . I don't want to blaspheme you ?
Speaker 4I'm not sure anybody really knows , but boys are good . I still need to get Ray a chili cheese dog You're going to eat it , Ray .
Speaker 5I eat anything right at the moment .
Speaker 3I'm say hungry Mark , yeah .
Speaker 5It's not easy finishing 40 days fast . You feel really weak and cold .
Speaker 3Ray , what's the longest you've ever fasted ? Go ahead .
Speaker 5I'm going to have a day and a half .
Speaker 4I just about died . Do you think maybe we can cater Winners Nizzles on one of these days instead of a taco guy Right now ?
Speaker 3Yeah , we're going to do that on one of these podcasts .
Speaker 4We should .
Speaker 3I think our listeners deserve to watch you guys do something disgusting . Well , listen to it . I may even eat one .
Speaker 2Mark , when is the last time you had Winners ?
Speaker 5Nizzles this morning .
Speaker 2No , I don't think .
Speaker 4I will Well put . I had it a few days ago .
Speaker 3All right , primes Ray , why'd you rub your hands together ?
Speaker 5I was told after that 40 days first . Oh yeah .
Speaker 3Here's a comment from I'm kidding . Acklexi , did you have to qualify ? I'm kidding . I hope someone doesn't name me seriously A guy who could survive a day and a half 40 days . Oh boy , here's a comment . Friends from Acklexi Love it . I enjoyed listening to this podcast when doing housework . You guys are entertaining , funny and edifying and I am encouraged by every episode I listen to to grow in the Lord . Thank you , acklexi . What an encouragement and a blessing . May the Lord keep blessing you through this silliness . What Ray Nothing .
Speaker 5That reminded me of what I was in school dreaming . And the teacher says come comfort , say that . And I said what are you talking about ?
Speaker 3Ray's just cold and hungry . All right , friends . This podcast is brought to you by MyComfort . Is Jesus devotional morning and evening . Ray , are you proud of that work ? Ray , humbly , humbly proud .
Speaker 2What am I supposed to do in the afternoon ? That almost , yeah , that's funny there should be one .
Speaker 5Yes morning , afternoon and evening and nighttime and snack time .
Speaker 3All right , friends , don't forget to check that out , along with the Living Waters Mug and the Evidence Study Bible , all at LivingWaterscom .
All right , the G3 journey continues . This time , friends , we have our friend Phil Johnson with us .
Speaker 2We almost got away with doing this recording without easy . Yeah , we tried to wrap it up . This is a spoiler alert . Yeah , listen , you'll enjoy the entire episode free of the weasy .
Speaker 3This will no doubt have the lowest the lowest download numbers . But yeah , I had to . As I mentioned in there , I had to go up on stage at G3 , which was an honor and to tell people about Living Waters and what we do . And so what do we do ? We have no idea what we do or what we're doing , but 8,300 people at that conference and we had the story shared with us , which you'll hear on one of the upcoming episodes , but what an amazing atmosphere , guys . Honestly , didn't you walk away just encouraged and started . Absolutely . And what was my favorite thing to do to people while we were there ? Oh boy , oh boy .
Speaker 5Your wife . What do you ?
Speaker 3mean oh boy Mart , you do it too .
Speaker 5Rachel was so embarrassed . She says , I'm so embarrassed by my husband . Yeah , because you kept doing it . Yeah , well , people would be Audience .
Speaker 2If you ever see us in public , don't fall for this , please . Here's what Easy does . Eventually in a conversation , 90% of the time someone will say something like oh , I just wish Ray was here . Or oh , it's so great to see Ray . And Easy points over their shoulders and goes , he's right there . And they turn with so much glee , Whiplash and excitement to look for Ray who's not there ?
Speaker 3It really does .
Speaker 5And that's when you laugh at them . And then I just laugh .
Speaker 2And then he kicks him in the shank and he runs away .
Speaker 3Look at Mark sitting there , acting innocent . You do the exact same thing , mark .
Speaker 4I was discipled . I don't want to say it , but if I don't say it you're fired .
Speaker 3Yeah , that's true , I taught you the ways . Anyway , now Phil is a delight , you know , talk about humility . That guy has the capacity to be an author in his own right . He's a phenomenal writer , obviously , speaks everywhere . He could be a senior pastor , but he has , by choice , come alongside Dr John MacArthur for decades I think over 40 years . He edits just about every one of his books and holds up his arms and is just a great encouragement and inspiration .
Speaker 4I don't remember where I heard it , but it was like if he were to leave in GTY and go start his own thing , he could affect hundreds or thousands of people , but if he stays where he's at , he can affect millions .
Speaker 5And he kind of likes Spurgeon too , doesn't he ?
Speaker 3Oh , he loves Spurgeon and , yeah , I just love Phil . He and I have become good friends over the years . We've served on a board together of a ministry and I just I find him to be a real encouragement , just a real faithful , dedicated , consistent man . So Phil is going to talk to us about how Christians can cultivate courage and boldness in a cowardly age . That's a good way to describe the day and age in the midst of which we live . So get ready for some encouragement from our dear brother Phil Johnson .
Speaker 2Welcome back . We are here still at G3 , obviously with the noisy here in the background , but this time we are sitting down with director of Grace to you and elder at Grace Community Church , but , more importantly , thorn in the side of Dr Steve Lawson . Isn't that right , phil ?
Speaker 1I don't know if he'd say that but yeah , I enjoy doing things that contradict his rules , like wearing the wrong tie when I preach stuff like that .
Speaker 4Does he think you up about that if you wear a wrong tie ?
Speaker 1He's never said anything to me about it , but if I were a student like if I were a seminary student he would . He would because he's notorious for that . That's kind of why I do it , because it's a big deal with him . You have to wear the right tie . I'm kind of testing him to see if he'll ever rebuke me for my dress code in the pub , but he hasn't yet .
Speaker 2That's great . You know , there's something that I think your wonderful church and your seminary and everything that you guys do over there are sort of known by , amongst other Christians , which is your guys' boldness for biblical truth in the face of all that is happening today . What is it about the DNA of your church that causes such boldness in the face of it all ?
Speaker 1You know , I think you have to say it goes back to John MacArthur . That is his legacy for the church . He's been there now , you know , 50 years . He's been a ministry for 54 years I think , and Grace Church is the only church has ever pastored . He's reached 3,500 sermons and he is remarkable for his boldness . It's hard to be around him for very long and not pick up on that a little bit . I think he's influenced the elders and other leaders at Grace Church of all of us to , you know , be bold , especially in the face of criticism from the world , because Jesus said look , don't be surprised if the world hates you . They hated me first and he actually said if you're faithful , the world will hate you , and so we're not to be surprised by that . I think one of the besetting sins of contemporary evangelicalism is an attitude where evangelicals seem to think that if we could just get the world to like us more , if we could be more acceptable to the world , then we'd have an easier time at evangelism . And it actually doesn't work that way . It's counterproductive .
Speaker 4Now I heard a rumor . You need to tell me , if it's true , something that John had said to you . I forbid you to go to the seminary because I will have the professors , one after the next , come to me because they're gonna be combating you and how you deal with them . So you're not allowed to go to the seminary and send you elsewhere .
Speaker 1He did tell the Dean of the Seminary not to give me an application and when I asked him why , he said yeah , he says you don't need to sit in seminary and you know , correct the professors or whatever it is you're gonna do . And yeah , you didn't go that far into it . But that's probably what you just said is probably what was on his mind .
Speaker 2Well , that's actually a good segue because , phillip , you seem like the kind of guy that your natural disposition is to be bold . Not everybody's like that right . There are some who are more introverted , if I could use that terminology , some that are more reserved , and things that nature . And yet I think when we read the Scriptures , there is a kind of boldness that we will come under through the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the power of the Holy Spirit . What is it about the Scriptures that will light a fire of boldness for even the most timid person ?
Speaker 1Right , because the Scriptures actually are full of teaching like that . I mean , you look at any biblical character , like Gideon , for example , who was not , you know , bold by nature . And I'm the same way . I was not born bold , I was through high school , you know , pretty timid .
Speaker 2Really .
Speaker 1And I think that's my default position to be timid , to sort of not provoke disagreement or back away from an argument or whatever , but
it was . I became a Christian at age 17 and that began to change my perspective on you know how important it is to actually defend the truth , and you notice that everywhere Scripture portrays Christians as soldiers . You know we're in a spiritual war , and though our weapons are not , you know , carnal , they're not of the flesh , we are in a war and the idea is to tear down these ideological strongholds . This is the way Paul describes it in 2 Corinthians 10 . We're tearing down ideas , satanic strongholds of false ideologies in which people are imprisoned , and so our enemy in the war is Satan , and you know his doctrines , not the people . The idea is to liberate people from those fortresses of lies , and once you see that's what we're doing here , it's not , we're not out to hurt people or , although worldly people will complain , now you've hurt my feelings now because you refuse to use my pronouns or recognize my identity or whatever . I'm more concerned about the truth , and the best thing I can do , the most loving thing I can do for someone who is imprisoned by lies , is to try to tear down that stronghold of a false ideology that they're trapped in , and when you realize that , I think it's kind of easier to be bold .
Speaker 4Have you always been like that ? As far back as I've been reading all the dispersion archives and the Cripplegate and Pyromaniac as long as as far back as I go , you've always been like this . Where you've been courageous , it's all about the Word of God , but has there been a journey for you to get you to this place ?
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , and I think probably most of it was shaped in my thinking before I got on the internet . So once I started on the internet there was around 1995 , I was already not afraid to defend some biblical idea . It's interesting you say it like that . You're courageous . Most people say why are you so contentious ? Well , is there ?
Speaker 2a difference .
Speaker 1There is , and I don't want to be contentious . I mean to be pugnacious is a disqualifying thing . You can't be , a leader in the church . If you just love the fight , it's not the fight I love , it's the truth and I'll constantly remind people . There are many Truths that are hotly debated that you couldn't get me in an argument about , because I really don't care . It's not , it's not you know , whether you believe in believers , baptism or infant baptism , that doesn't put your soul in peril . If you're wrong , yeah , but if you , if you deny some truth that is at the very heart of the gospel , the doctrine of justification by faith , for example , then I want to defend that doctrine for your sake , because if you're wrong on that , if you're trusting in the wrong thing for salvation , that puts your , your soul in eternal peril and it's worth fighting for you real quick .
Speaker 4You said something , you wrote something about living waters that challenged Me personally about 20 years ago . You you talked about living waters is great . It has hell's best kept secret right where's heavens best kept secret . And it took me some time I needed to take that to task . I was taken out to the back shed is what was what happened ? And I said well , what ? Listen , living waters , we exist . We want to evangelize . We want to equip the church to properly evangelize . Stop using life enhancement as a draw card for salvation . Use the law of God to bring the knowledge of sin . And then there's the gospel , and everybody knows the gospel , but we have 30 minutes of time , maybe inside of a church . We want to unpack the gospel , but we need to let people know that they're they're sinners . Yeah , right , so , but what you did was I examined all the material that living waters had and I thought to myself he's right , he's right . Where is the substitution area ? Tell me ? Where are we expanding on Justification ? What ? Where is the imputed righteousness of Christ ? And I'll tell you , because you were courageous in writing that and honest in In in your , because you did it with all the websites . You know people ask you . Apparently , that's why you probably , yeah , take all the websites . It changed living waters .
Speaker 1Yeah , and I appreciate that about ray , comfort and living waters . You guys are amazing in that sense because the the normal reflex for most people is to defend well , we're not wrong , we're not wrong and and I didn't think you guys were wrong either , in fact , I think hell's best kept secrets one of the best sermons I've ever heard , and it brings balance in a In an era where most evangelicals will say nothing about the law . They don't tell people that they're sinners , they don't confront people with their need for salvation and and yet Jesus said look , it's the sick who need a physician , not those who are whole . And you guys are the only ones out there telling people you need a physician . And so I got that . I appreciate that , but but I did say to Ray I think you ought to balance hell's best kept secret with heaven's best kept secret . Do something on Justification by faith . And he answered with a document that he sent me . That was his discourse on Justification by faith . That was one of the best , clearest Presentation it was from chat GPT . No , I know better than that , because I asked chat GPT the same question and it didn't get it right . So so , yeah , no . So I appreciate that about Ray and he's amazing , he's been talking about somebody that's bold . I , I Deliberately don't go out on the street with Ray because I'm too chicken to do everything that he does .
Speaker 2Yeah , you know , you mentioned Gideon earlier , who is small and timid . We work with somebody who is small and timid and his name , yeah , ray Comfort . But when it comes to the gospel and I actually mean I'm saying that as sort of a joke , but I'm also serious Ray is , he is not a confrontational person . How ?
Speaker 1do you have heard him say that ? I've heard him say that he gets nervous before he goes out and you know you watch him work and you you would not believe that this guy's afraid of anything .
Speaker 4But listen , the first time I went out opening our preaching with him it was in 1995 and we went to the Baboa Fun Zone and I said I wonder how he's gonna do this after a merry-go-round ride .
Speaker 2Is it gonna go on the bridge ? Is it gonna go around ?
Speaker 1is it gonna be praying over .
Speaker 4I mean , what is his natural when he approaches a situation like this ? And we ? We parked the car . He walked right up to this cement soapbox , got up and just started preaching before I was even like three steps there and I asked him what , what was going through your mind to do that ? And he said Well , if I would have waited five seconds I would have talked myself out of it .
Speaker 5Yeah , he's off .
Speaker 4I would have looked at their faces . I would have got nervous . A nervous man is a praying man . But I realized for me as soon as I get there I just got to go , or I'll talk myself out of it , I'll freak myself out .
Speaker 2Yeah , he is , in regular life , timid , he is not confrontational , but he is so compelled and convicted by the reality that so many souls are are headed for hell , yeah , and he just cannot do anything else but do something about it . Yeah , and I actually think , and I love you to talk about this . I think because I asked you earlier what's the difference between being bold and for lack of a better terminology being a jerk . You know what I mean . Where , like , where's the balance there ? I think , for , for Ray and for many , in the right way , it's , it's the recognition that we didn't earn this . I'm not smarter than the next person , I'm not more moral than the next person , I'm not more religiously righteous the next person . I have been given a gift by God , it is grace , and now I'm compelled to share it with others . How do we ground ourselves in that kind of humility so that we don't tip over Over from being bold for the sake of Christ to being bold for the sake of our own personal pride ?
Speaker 1Yeah , and you may be asking the wrong person , because I am definitely not an expert on that I think about that , in fact . I watch Ray , I watch his videos that he puts what , where he's out witnessing and everything , and he's able to say things that if I said it .
Speaker 4I would come across like . This is so true we cannot get away with the things that I know .
Speaker 1I'd come across like a jerk and yeah , I don't know if it's my facial expression or or just raise diminutive size that lets him get by with it . I . I don't know but people love him and and so it is a gift . I mean , he's just has this sort of effervescent personality that Enables him to get by with saying things that if I said , you'd say you're acting like a jerk .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , I've seen him have a conversation with two lesbian , with women . The conversation starts where they're holding hands and he shares the law in the gospel with them and doesn't hold anything back , and they're hugging him and and thanking him afterwards . Yeah , and I'm like I would have left with the bloody nose . Yeah , not because I wanted to , but I don't know what would happen . You are a lover , seems , of church history . I I am as well . What are ? What are examples ? As you look back in church history , what are examples of the church being bold in the face of persecution ? And I asked this question specifically because I feel like we live in the tyranny of the immediate right , especially here in the United States . I feel like everyone thinks like this is the first time the church has ever faced something so incredible . Yeah , when we look at church history , what we find is we've been here before . How did the church respond and how did , and what kind of work that God do through ?
Speaker 1Yeah , in fact you've , I'm sure , heard of Spurgeon and the downgrade controversy . That's named the downgrade controversy Because of a couple of articles he published , written by a friend of his named Schindler Robert Schindler , I think , was his name and His
. The argument Schindler was making is that church history is cyclical and so you have these cycles of apostasy that happen and in the same pattern , over and over and over again . And you know you could trace church history just since the downgrade controversy and see we've been through three or four more cycles Exactly like he described . So he's right and I think the greatest lesson in all of that , you could actually go back all the way to the Old Testament , the book of judges and even before , and see these same cycles of apostasy were happening in the Old Testament . And the most important lesson I would take from that is that God's will and work is Rarely done by a majority , it's always the remnant . Oh yeah that is faithful and I want to be part of that faithful remnant , and I think one of the things that plagues Evangelicals today is this notion that if we , if we don't gather , you know , majority opinion on our side , we're gonna lose the battle . And and I think we need to shift our thinking and say no , no , I'd rather be part of the faithful remnant rather than the the easygoing majority , because the majority is ultimately going to drift and slide into apostasy .
Speaker 4Right , and this is what we saw in the essential church . Right , I saw with easy inside the movie theater , we're watching it and we're like this is so well produced it is . This is lighting , if nothing else , lighting a fire underneath the pastors across the world . I attend pastor Philip de Corses , decorses Church . Right , been there for 15 years .
Speaker 1You know my next-door neighbor for , I don't know , five years .
Speaker 2I'm sorry about that .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , yeah my kids learned how to do that Ulster accent . Yeah , I'll do it pretty well I yeah , I can't .
Speaker 4Every accent of mine sounds Hispanic and every accent of Ray sounds Indian .
Speaker 3Yeah , we're not like this is true .
Speaker 4But on Sunday I attended Tony Woods Church , down in a custom-expression Bible Church , and he stood up there and In the midst of his message he said Mark my words , we will never shut down this church . Those doors will never , ever be locked . That's what I saw come out of the essential church . Yeah , covid , with you guys raising the flag , running out and Doing the work that nobody really knew what to do .
Speaker 2Yeah , I real quick for those who don't know what is COVID .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , no , the essential church . I think I'm gonna show it here Tonight tonight , I think so . Yeah , I think that's right . It's an amazing documentary and I don't take credit for it . I didn't have anything to do with the producing of it . I'm interviewed in it , but I was a little worried when I heard they were gonna do it . I thought , well , I don't want somebody to just make a celebratory CD , making John MacArthur Sound like a superhero and Grace Church sound like you know whatever . But it it isn't . And it's really well done how it weaves together stories from church history and Tells the story of the two pastors in Canada who were imprisoned because they kept their churches open during COVID and then weaves together with that what happened at Grace Church and when we opened our Doors , and all of that in a way that just simply relates the facts but illustrates , I think , how important it is to to let scripture and and your own conscience guide what you do and don't fall prey to just going along with the majority or Listening to what we now know is propaganda that we get from the media and the government Did you ?
Speaker 4should the Lord Terry and I come back to you think that the church in the future is going to be looking back on COVID on the decisions that are being made , has to not shut the doors because of maybe future persecution that's gonna hit and they're gonna look . They were able to do it , we can do it , yeah .
Speaker 1I hope so . I hope so . I think that's the whole point of the documentary to try to infuse into Church leaders the conviction that look , and that's why it's called the essential church . What happened in California was the governor said we're gonna open essential businesses but the non-essential ones right yeah . And he listed church with non-essential but essential things included stuff like the casinos and massage parlors and strip joints . Planned hair open , so they turned upside down what's really essential and what's not yeah , necessary at all .
Speaker 2That actually leads to a great question , which is what is it about the gathering of God's people on Resurrection Sunday , every single Sunday ? That's essential , and and maybe answer that in the sense of , certainly in the in the midst of COVID , but also in the midst of so many Christians who are Satisfied being home Streaming sermons online . What is essential about the gathering of God's people on resurrection Sunday , every Sunday ?
Speaker 1That's a great question because in the first place , the word church means called out ones . It's the gathering of God's people and there's so much in the New Testament about this . First epistle of John , for example , makes your love for the brethren one of the defining marks of whether your faith is genuine or not . And if you genuinely love the brethren , you're going to sense this sort of craving for fellowship with them , and you're not going to be happy to sit at home watching a live stream of some church service While you sip your coffee in your pajamas . It's not the same thing . You can do . That , you know , if you're , if you have a communicable disease and can't go to church and you're sick , it's great to have that advantage because you don't miss the sermon and all that . But that's not a substitute for the fellowship of the church .
Speaker 2And your coffee to church .
Speaker 1Well , lots of churches do . Let you sip coffee now while you're listening to the sermon , and and I won't argue about that . But the New Testament word is coinonia , you know , and it means fellowship and face-to-face fellowship . Paul says repeatedly . In fact , I did a concordant search when I was I was Answering a question our attorneys had asked about what is it about ? Wearing masks that you feel Inhibits your worship ? You know there's the obvious stuff singing . You know you don't want to sing with a masked face and and all that , but it was . I did a concordant search and was amazed at how many times Paul said things like I long to see your face , I want to come and see you face-to-face . That word face is Frequent in Scripture and always , almost always , associated with the fellowship of the Saints , what happens in church . It's an important thing and I don't think a lot of us may be realized how important fellowship is until we missed it because of the COVID shutdown .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1I was there at Grace Church the very first Sunday . We were closed because I'm Grace to you and we had to make sure the sermon John preaches is recorded . So I'm sitting in there in an otherwise empty auditorium . I counted the people there was a Organist and a soloist , john MacArthur eight of us total . I'm there with my wife on that first Sunday preaching to this empty auditorium , and it was not only surreal , it just didn't feel right , the vibrance different . Yeah , totally different . And even John said I do not like preaching into a camera , yeah , and with no people . But then people began to come as the weeks went on . Second week there were a few more people . Third week there were a lot more people . Before we knew it there were like three , four hundred people sneaking in even though the church was closed .
Speaker 2The remnant .
Speaker 1Yeah , and I'm realizing , yeah , they're not as afraid of covid as they are loath to miss the fellowship of the church , fellowship of the saints . So that was what motivated the elders to say , look , we've got to reopen the church , we're starving our people for fellowship . And , and on that first Sunday when the church was opened , even though we were all over the news as defying the government and they were threatening to throw John MacArthur in jail and all that , I've never seen a more joyful Sunday at Grace Church . I've been there for 40 years and that was , that was a definite highlight , because people just it was like getting water after you'd walk through a desert .
Speaker 2Yeah , I had this picture of like . You know they're like . They're coming after John MacArthur and Phil Johnson . I'm like , oh man , they're gonna be in a white Bronco down the 54-05 freeway in a few minutes . They're being chased after . Did you guys realize in the moment that you weren't just fighting to keep Grace open , but all the small churches that don't have the funds to do what you guys did ? Did you realize in the moment .
Speaker 1Yeah that that occurred to me , but I didn't really appreciate how important that was until afterward . And , like I come to a conference like this just in two days time , I've had probably something like 40 different church leaders and even people from various churches who say thank you for what you all did during COVID , because it motivated our , our church , to open up as well . So , yeah , I think it had a more far-reaching impact than we expected . But I think we knew that we had a maybe a greater duty . To who much is given , much shall be required . And because Grace Church is so large and visible and influential and we had the resources to fight the the legal battle that would ensue , we had a special duty , I think , to sort of lead the way on the thing , and we were all conscious
of that .
Speaker 4You know , at Shep Khan I think it was this past year with yeah , definitely this past year MacArthur stood up and he said something that just made my heart excite with joy and he said I've learned to appreciate and welcome in desire those moments that are Red Sea , where I have no other option other than I have to trust God . I'm completely . I think it was General MacArthur who said the enemies before me , the enemies behind me , stood left and he's , with the right place , not going to get away this time right . That that is the mentality it is MacArthur loves to have , that has come out of gty and really let a fire underneath all of us and I I want to say thank you , you know , for that , because that that that affected Kindred Community Church .
Speaker 1Yeah , I know , I know and it's the same with me . That wouldn't be my reflex response , like I hear John say that , and I think I don't desire those uncomfortable moments when I don't know where my hope is going to come from but John seriously does . He loves that , he loves the and , and he's got such a record of faithfulness and triumph that it's hard not to follow a man like that . That's the kind of leader you want to attach your life to and say I'll follow him wherever he's going .
Speaker 4Well in response to that , I heard another pastor respond to MacArthur and say , yeah , we have , like Romans 8 , 28 , highlighted , underline . You know we have . I can do all things . You know things are highlighted and what happens ? The Bible has just become an adult coloring book for a lot of us and , without even realizing it , we have just become hearers and not doers . Yeah , and then when our backs are up against the wall , that's when you want to underline that scripture , but you want to have it as part of you before that time . And that's what .
Speaker 2That's what I think for a lot in kind of going back to what I said earlier . For a lot of guys out there , small churches like we have a church plant , we planted it a year or so before covid meeting out of a public school , and so when covid hits , the school shuts down and they have absolutely no desire to have us back . We're meeting in backyards , we're struggling to try to figure it out and then , you know , the whole thing hits with your guys's church , and so that's what I mean by , like , some people just don't have the financial resources to do it , and that alone just gave so many churches that want to be bold , that want to be brave , that are convicted by God's word , but they don't have the resources to accomplish something like that . And you guys did that . It's amazing . We really appreciate it . What's , uh ? What's next ? What are you guys working on right now ?
Speaker 1I just finished editing John MacArthur's next book . He , he preached a series of sermons and wrote the material for the book more than a year ago and , uh , and I've been his main editor for 40 years now . So , uh , I just finished this book . It's called the war on children , okay , and he's tracing all the influences in our current culture that target children and groom them and confuse them about gender and things like that , and he's raising the question what is the proper response for christian parents ? What do we do in a situation like this ?
Speaker 2yeah well , give us a , give us a little taste . What do we do ? I mean , speaking of boldness , how do we be bold as christian parents raising children in Babylonian exile ?
Speaker 1yeah ? And the answer is the same . You have to do what scripture says . You have to do what you know is right and be prepared to face the consequences . And it may not be a comfortable situation . You may be opposed by the government . Governments these days actually are threatening to take children away from their parents if they , if they don't let them be indoctrinated in , you know , lgbtq cultism or something . Yeah , so he's just saying you know , we need to be faithful and trust the Lord that he will guard and protect our children while we do what he's called us to do . And he makes the point , for example , that the government doesn't own our children . They they think they do , they'd like to have that control , but the truth is , even parents don't own the children . Those children belong to God and they're given to us as parents in a stewardship , and it's a very well-defined stewardship . We go all the way back to Deuteronomy 6 , where the Lord says you know , teach these things to your children . And then he says when you , when you sit down , when you rise up , when you walk by the way , he names every conceivable part of life . And he's basically saying at no point should you stop teaching your children the principles of God's word and the values of righteousness , and so it's mainly an encouragement to parents in difficult times speaking of children .
Speaker 2You claim to be 70 , being a grandparent . In the midst of all this , how do we come alongside our children , where we have indirect influence ? What ? What does that look like ?
Speaker 1yeah , and you know grandparents have to remember they're not the parents . So , like it's it , you're an encouragement to the parents , or you should be , and I love being a grandparent . I tell people that being a grandfather is the only thing that makes old age tolerable , and I I love my grandkids . It's not the discounts , no , even the early bedtime .
Speaker 4No , the discounts are humiliating I have a final question for you , and that is is there a book or two that you find yourself circling back reading that has impacted you over the years , maybe that you recommend to our audience ?
Speaker 1jc riles holiness . Oh yeah , it's convicting every time you read it it's just , it's one of the best books ever written . And then , of course , I'm known as a spurgeon aficionado . There is somebody asked me yesterday what's your spurt favorite spurgeon sermon ? And I don't really have a single favorite . I think you can pick up spurgeon at any point , randomly , choose a sermon and you're going to be edified yeah , I heard you say uh , everybody likes to quote spurgeon , but they don't like to read spurgeon .
Speaker 4You don't really know what a theology truly is , because you really believed his theology . If you really like spurgeon , well then you're gonna come on over to the right side .
Speaker 1Yeah that's right . In fact , there's a famous article I think was published for the first time in a banner of truth magazine . It's called do you really like spurt ? Because , he's saying you know , people , people's quote these snippets from spurt that are really good , but if you read his theology , you know , would you really agree with him ? And the answer is no . I mean , he's too much like john mccarthur to be liked by the average evangelical one of my favorite spurgeon sermons is five ways to be a more successful entrepreneur .
Speaker 2It's a he would never it . Uh , phil . Thank you so much , man , for giving us some of your time . We , we , are super blessed by your work . Nope , no , you're done , phil johnson's here without me we were , literally we were literally we were literally just staying up . We almost got away with it .
Speaker 3Well , I had to torment phil a little bit . Yes , how'd it go . Oh , it was great , all right they asked me to stay up there for hours and preach , but I would have asked you that too . Right , I said I got a good to phil johnson man . No thanks for coming on . Thanks easy . I had to add my voice to this podcast , of course yeah , it would have been the same without it well , god bless you .
Speaker 2Thank you again , phil , appreciate you thank you thanks so .
Speaker 5That was great . Boy Phil's your favorite part , the middle part is what thrilled my heart . Seriously , I felt palpitations just when you're talking . It was just so great .
Speaker 3Well , Phil sure had some good stuff to say about Ray and about Living Wonders . What an encouragement we talked about in the podcast .
Speaker 5Really , I take back what I just said .
Speaker 3Well , like you guys talked to him about , obviously I gloriously came on at the end . I'm so glad I caught the end . At least I had to get my voice in there .
Speaker 4But Hell's Best , skip Secret being one of his top messages of all time .
Speaker 3That was cool here . Yeah , he said it was one of the best sermons Ray's ever heard , and Ray's ever heard . And even he talked about a letter you wrote him on justification Because , Mark , in the podcast you highlighted the fact that Phil had been honest with us about things that we can do to enhance our declaration of the gospel . It was great A constructive criticism . He was great at helping . He talked to me about how you wrote him a letter expressing where you stand on that and he said it was one of the clearest presentations he'd heard on justification oh , that's great Because he's an intellectual , isn't he ?
Speaker 5He's a great shop .
Speaker 3One of us simultaneously in harmony ? Yeah , so that was delightful , huh , mark ?
Speaker 4It was absolutely Phil's always somebody that I want to just go and listen to him speak , no matter the topic . He's kind of like grandpa Right . He's a great little thriller , well listen because he's a great little kid , like in his , in his grandkids , and I feel like I'm like that . I just want to go and listen to him speak and get the sage advice , not just of things that he's going through , but just life . He's got advice on life . I'd love to just sit there .
Speaker 3Yeah , good stuff . You guys both did a great job on that . By the way , I listened to it .
Speaker 5Oh , please go so .
Speaker 3Izzy , you weren't involved in that . Yeah , I was involved in that because I was up on stage and we tried to reschedule with him . It didn't work , but nonetheless he was delighted that it worked out the way . Oh , I'm glad he's not here . All right , friends , there you have it . Don't forget , my comfort is Jesus . Devotional morning and evening . Inspiration from Raymond Comfort .
Speaker 1Don't call me Raymond .
Speaker 3My parents call me Raymond , my sister calls me Raymond . And don't forget the living water stick . Izzy knows you so well . I can't say a word without saying it before I do . And don't forget the evidence study Bible , Living Waters , Mug , all livingwaterscom friends . Don't forget to give us those ratings and your comments on the platforms you listen on and podcasts at livingwaterscom with all that good stuff . Thank you for joining us , friends . We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast , the ultimate cure for insomnia . We competed there on our snores . I know your mind was better . Keep pointing at me .