The two mistakes . When you're talking about the incarnation , which leads to heresy , I mean , we've got you know Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormonism that have an unbalanced understanding of the incarnation . They come up with just crazy theologies based on it . But the balance is that he really was fully God and fully man . When we say he was fully man , we , as you mentioned , he ate , he had dirt under his fingers , he worked , he sweated , he cried , he fell asleep , he got tired , he thought with a mind right , he wasn't faking being a man . You know , when Superman dresses up as Clark Kent , he's pretending right . But Jesus wasn't pretending to be a man , he was fully man . And yet we also know that he was fully God . He forgave sin and fulfilled scripture in the way the only fully God could do that .
Emeal ZwayneFive 41 AM . Five 41 AM A text from Ray Comfort to Ken Ham and me . A friend sent me a text , if yet he isn't real . Could someone , ken Ham , explain this Well ?
Ray Comfortthat was Jedi , wasn't it ? What was happening ?
Emeal ZwayneYeti , ray , yeti , yeah , along with a cartoon drawing of a fluffy Yeti smiling and holding up a star . Five 41 AM yeah , it's normal . I should be immune to it by now .
Oscar NavarroHe was just sitting there at the bottom of his bed hole . Thank you , thank you , thank you .
Mark SpenceThank you . How can I get out of here ?
Emeal ZwayneThat would be a good start to a book , as I was sitting in my bed hole contemplating , the mysteries of life .
Ray ComfortGetting ready to climb my ladder .
Emeal ZwayneRay , please , please , tell us you've stopped doing it .
Ray ComfortNo , it's my life saver . My chiropractor said I'd be in a wheelchair if I hadn't done that .
Emeal ZwayneOkay , for the sake of your progeny , successive generations and the issue of a lot of money , could you just videotape yourself getting in and out of that hole ? No , because I'm sure in years the family can sell it for millions .
Ray ComfortIt's too intimate . I have my shirt off , Wow .
Emeal ZwayneTMI .
Oscar NavarroFor those new listeners that maybe have joined us in the last six months of the year and haven't heard Oscar the explainer , ray Comfort cut a hole into the mattress of his bed so that he sleeps in that hole at night .
Ray ComfortYeah , because I'd get out of bed and my back was really bad for years Sometimes crawl across the floor . It was so weak and I thought I know what the problem is . That's the pressure from the mattress , the easy comfort mattress .
Emeal ZwayneThat's right , we're starting a company , friend Easy Comfort mattress company .
Ray ComfortSo I got a very sharp knife and just cut up an eight inch hole , probably 14 inch circumference , in the bed so that my back area goes in that hole and there's no pressure on the spine . And it fixed it instantly no pressure . So Kyra , practice out of business when it comes to spinal and othesis .
Emeal ZwayneMark , why don't you put a hole in your bed ? I'm normal , this is true . Yeah , ray , you need to stop that . Have you ever thought of putting a Yeti in that hole ? No , I have a wife .
Ray ComfortI just want to know it , like if it's like Sue , do you know where my keys are ?
Oscar NavarroDid you check your hole ?
Mark SpenceOh boy .
Emeal ZwayneAll right , france . Here's a lovely comment . This is from Seth Johnson 05 . Can't get enough . I can't begin to describe how helpful this podcast has been for me . Growing up in the church of Christ denomination , it was always hard for me to see what the true gospel was . Ray , easy , mark and Oscar are prime examples of what a Christian should be Primate .
Ray ComfortPrimate example .
Emeal ZwayneTheir open honesty is truly appreciated and their candid conversations about scripture are encouraging , to say the least . I would love to hear the guys discuss different Bible translations which ones Christians should embrace and which ones we should avoid .
Oscar NavarroI like that . That would be a good one , huh .
Emeal ZwayneWe should write that down .
Oscar NavarroYeah , we should .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , thanks , seth . We're blessed that you've been blessed , and thanks for writing in . This podcast is brought to you by so many lions , so few easy's my favorite book Ray's ever written . See Ray's not listening because if he was , he would have immediately responded . What were you doing , Ray ?
Ray ComfortThere's a Texas judge is allowing a woman to bought her baby , and I just saw the item and it's making me mad because it's a possibility the baby may be deformed . A mask got a testimony . You were told that and you didn't have the baby aborted . It's one of your kids , isn't that right , Mark ?
Mark SpenceYeah , not exactly . He was in a topic pregnancy with Nathaniel and the doctors had said in the emergency room that it was an ectopic pregnancy . Long story short , it was not an ectopic pregnancy . The baby was inside the womb and here he is , we have him . He's 22 years old now , so the doctors were wrong . But even if the child was going to be deformed , we would still have the child , because why do we wanna kill those that are not like us ? Absolutely . We walked around killing people in wheelchairs , Right . It's an absolute ridiculous argument to say that we should kill babies in the womb that are deformed .
Ray ComfortSo how are we gonna get back to it ? It is from there .
Emeal ZwayneHow do we crawl out of this hole ? Well , actually , that's a good reminder , Mark Friends . Make sure to check out the what Is it movie . You'd find it on our Now in . Spanish oh , is that a ban de los nios ? Yes , what is it ? I don't know . Check it out on our YouTube channel .
Oscar NavarroRay's Spanish was oh , oh .
Ray ComfortHey oh oh , that's all I could muster . I'm serious .
Emeal ZwayneOh , oh , and it still came out in an Indian accent .
Ray ComfortOh , oh , oh , oh oh .
Emeal ZwayneAll right , friends , I was saying so many lines , so few Daniels . That's fitting in line of abortion . We need more people to stand up for righteousness in our culture . That's a book by Ray , my favorite book by Ray Ray . The title Ray , because it's dedicated to Oscar . Oh , that's right . And don't forget the Living Waters mug . You can eat something to drink with friends and they have in a study Bible all at livingwaterscom . Yeah , all right , we are continuing the what is the gospel series , and today is one of my favorites because it deals with my favorite person here . Friends is Jesus of Nazareth . I thought you were gonna say yourself Ha , ha , ha , ha ha . Far be it from me .
Oscar NavarroUpbeat music playing in background . Welcome back to what is the gospel
. This is session three . Who is Jesus of Nazareth ? Today , we are talking about our savior and I think this is an important time to stop and mentioned , as a famous theologian already has , that theology , especially when it comes to Christology , has to lead to doxology . In other words , when we talk about the things of God , especially Christ , it has to lead to our praise and worship . We are talking about a real person , born 2000 years ago and who lived a life , died , resurrected and is now ascended . With that said , thank you for being here , guys . Easy Ray Comfort and Mark Spence . Welcome back , guys . We are back . Okay , for our first question where do we see Jesus at work before being born ? In the manger .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , boy , the pre-incarnate Christ . That's a lofty term but it simply means that Jesus was before he became a man . And we can go to John 1-1, . And the beginning was the word . The word was with God , the word was God . He was in the beginning with God . All things were made through him and without him nothing was made that was made . So what was Jesus doing before he was in the manger ? He was creating , he was functioning as the second person of the triune Godhead . And to me it's baffling when I hear , suppose , that theologians talked about how Christ didn't exist before the incarnation . Obviously cultic and liberal theologians . You think about what Jesus said in John chapter eight , when he was talking to the Pharisees . He said your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day and he saw it and was glad . Then the Jew said to him you're not yet 50 years old and have you seen Abraham ? Jesus said to them most assuredly , I say to you , before Abraham was , I am , and so Christ was and has always been the eternal son of God , the second person of the triune Godhead . I'm sure Mark and Ray have more to say no .
Ray ComfortYou've just told both my scriptures and where I was heading in the beginning was the word and where's the word God ? And the word became flesh and twat amongst us and there's certain portions of scripture like there's hundreds of them , but give me goosebumps and one of them is John . Is it John eight ? Where it the I am , where it just leads up , just moves up and he's gonna say it before Abraham was . I am Pre-existent and it's just throwing . I love the way you introduced this . It's such a lofty subject . Who is Jesus of Nazareth ? If you get a secular , the secular world , talking about he's a historical figure . They had some great teachings , but we know him as Lord and that every atom that was made was made by him . There was nothing that was made that wasn't made by him , including our salvation and our very life and being and soul and everything . So it's a lofty subject .
Mark SpenceYeah , you know when you begin to think of appearances of God . In the Old Testament it would be known as a theophany , or an appearance of Christ would be a Christophany , almost used interchangeably , depending on the circumstance . We have this story of Shadrach , meshach and Abednego , and there was one as the son of man who was there with them in the midst of the fire Of the fire . Absolutely , you know , a lot of people make that mistake . They think that when Jesus entered onto the scene some 2000 years ago was his first entrance onto this planet , and that was not the case . Jesus was always on the scene . He is always there . However , we deal with the incarnation of Christ , which we'll deal with here in just a moment . That's when God became flesh . But I'll tell you , we back it all the way up to Genesis , chapter one , and we see God making man in our image , our image . He's not talking to the angels , he's not talking to any other entity , he's talking within the triunity of the Godhead . Let us make man in our image . And then we see in Genesis , chapter 11 , with the tower of Babel , when he says let us confuse their language right , because they're of one tongue , speaking amongst the Trinity the Father , son and the Holy Spirit .
Oscar NavarroThat's great . I think of Martin Lord Jones . He does a fantastic job of creating this imagery , which will lead into our next question . He says imagine you being an angel in heaven and you're looking at Jesus . And he looks over to his father and he says to him it is time he gets up . He derobes himself of his glorious robe , he walks through the golden streets , out the pearly gates and condescends , descends himself into a major to be born of a Virgin Mary . Right For the first time , these angels are seeing the Son not at the right hand of the Father . Just imagine that , you know , which leads into our next question what does it mean that he became incarnate ? Could ?
Ray ComfortI just say something here . Something that blows me away is that scripture that says the eye of the Lord is in every place , beholding the evil and the good . So we get an image of what . How does God see the earth ? Is it from heaven ? No , because it means his eye is in every place . It's not a physical eye like you and I have that's subject to looking forward . His eye looks forward , upward , backward , inside , outward , and it just it's mind blowing . And then you think how great God is to see all things all at once , throughout the whole of space , if it can be the whole of space , and to think this God that we can't comprehend condescended to become one man , born in a cow shed , to die for our sins . And when I think like that and get a grip of what God is like for a second , and then who Jesus was , it makes me listen to his words , the whole before Abraham I am . What would this God say and how would he speak ? There's no arms or butts in what Jesus said . It's just straight authority , spoke with authority . And it's mind blowing .
Emeal ZwayneIt is and you think about it . You know , obviously the incarnation speaks of Christ taking on human flesh and the word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory . It says in John one his glory . You know we were talking about what Christ did in his pre-incarnate state and Mark mentioned the Christophonies that are throughout the Old Testament . I mean , this was the same Christ that you know we see in scripture , oftentimes referred to as the angel of the Lord in different parts of the Old Testament , like in Genesis 16 , you know you see him appearing to Hagar , sarah's maid servant , genesis 22 , when Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac again angel of the Lord , but we see the interchangeable title there and then it refers to him as the Lord , exodus three , the burning Bush passage , judges 13 , with the appearance to Samson's parents and so on and so forth . You know you see him all throughout the Old Testament . But then he comes into the New Testament , becomes flesh , dwells among us and this is a mind blowing thing when you think about it . God becoming flesh , you think would be an extraordinary event that would have , with all the pomp and circumstance that would surround appotentate right in the king . You would imagine him having , you know , the greatest heralds on earth announcing his coming . He'd be born in a palace . He would befriend the greatest dignitaries of earth . You know he would have all those things . But you think about it . Christ came and he was born to . A lowly virgin , was born in a manger , right in a barn . He was the friend of common fishermen . He died , not a glorious death , but died on our equivalent of an electric chair today , right on a cross , a cruel instrument of death . He who was rich became poor for us , and it just blows my mind , when you think of what that incarnation entailed , that , as it talks about in Philippians , that he humbled himself . Right , he didn't consider it a thing to be grass , being equal with God , but made himself with no reputation , taking the form of a bond servant and coming in the likeness of man . Wow .
Ray ComfortAnd with all the weaknesses that you and I have right . John . Chapter four he hungered , he thirsted , he became depressed . And you think , where did he become depressed ? Well , spurgeon actually uses the word depressed when he speaks of Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane , sorrowful unto death , sweating drops of blood . And it's because he was being bruised right from that point by the Father for our sins , even back in the garden of Gethsemane , according to Spurgeon . And then we see his divinity in that he had the power over death , calling Lazarus man . I would have liked to be there for that , you know , for Lazarus come forth , just to see how he came forth . And then Jesus was the ultimate undertaker's nightmare . Seriously , I call the undertaker . We want our check back . He's just raised another one from the dead , you know , undertaker , getting the line and the loaves and fishes , the power to create . And here's a deep theological question for you guys Was the fish cooked ?
Oscar NavarroIt was obviously sushi . It was sushi .
Ray ComfortNo , no , no , no no , no , no , no , no , no , no , no , no , no Raw fish , that's lady food . No , seriously think about it for a minute . When God does something , he does know it half baked . You've got 5,000 people haven't eaten for three days . You're gonna give them raw fish , make them cook it . Well , they could eat the bread . Was the bread half baked ? It was baked , it was cooked , it was ready to go . So it's just a thought . I'm not gonna start a church on this National church of the cooked fish .
Emeal ZwayneWell , I will tell you this , though , in connection with the incarnation . That blows me away . You know , at the end of the gospel of John , when Jesus appeared at the disciples after his resurrection , it said you know , when they came ashore , he said come , children , have breakfast . And you know , there was fish cooking on the fire there . It's like he made breakfast for his disciples . It blows my mind . Yeah , yeah .
Ray ComfortMost important meal of the day .
Emeal ZwayneOh man .
Oscar NavarroI love the balance you guys are giving it , because the two mistakes when you're talking about the incarnation , which leads to heresy I mean we've got you know Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormonism that have an unbalanced understanding of the incarnation . They come up with just crazy theologies based on it . But the balance is that he really was fully God and fully man . When we say he was fully man , as you mentioned , he ate , he had dirt under his fingers , he worked , he sweated , he cried , he fell asleep , he got tired , he thought with a mind right , he wasn't faking being a man . You know , when Superman dresses up as Clark Kent , he's pretending right , but Jesus wasn't pretending to be a man , he was fully man . And yet we also know that he was fully God . He forgave sin and fulfilled scripture in the way that only fully God could do that . And so that balance is so important and I think you guys struck it really well .
Mark SpenceWell , I love everything you guys are saying . I don't have much to add to any of that . You know , I think one of the mistakes that we often make is when we hear a word like incarnation , we say where is that in the Bible ? Where is the word incarnation ? Also , hypostatic union , right , it's not found in the Bible . It's clearly taught the word trinity . It's not found in the Bible , but these terms are clearly taught throughout scripture , and when you begin to grasp the incarnation , it'll begin to blow your mind . You take that step back and you go woe is me , wow is him . And it's the place where our affection and our attention always needs to be , which is just simply upon Christ .
Oscar NavarroI've heard someone ask like why is it necessary for the incarnation ? But it's so necessary because without the incarnate , fully man , fully God , then we don't have the perfect mediator between us , god and man . You know .
Ray ComfortI think that one of the foundational scriptures that Jehovah's Witnesses used to deny the deity of Christ is I get to the Father , for the Father is greater than I . And yet we see it balanced . But we see Jesus made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death , and that's why God was manifest in the flesh , for the suffering of death , for as much then as the children , but takers of flesh and blood , he himself likewise took part of the same , so he could pass through death and destroy him who had the power of death , that is the devil , and deliver those through the fear of death or their lifetime subject to bondage .
Emeal ZwayneWhat a glorious gospel , yeah , and you just think of again what the humiliation of Christ entailed . I heard it put this way once , kind of a modern analogy . Can you imagine today becoming a chihuahua to save a breed of Doberman pinchers and pit bulls that you knew were gonna devour you ? Often atheists , especially one , indict God on how he's allowed man to suffer and all these things . But God entered our world knowing that he was gonna go to a cruel cross and be crucified by his own creation . Right , the very vocal cords and tongues and lips that he fashioned and formed . We're gonna blaspheme him and spit on him and ridicule him . The hands he fashioned and formed , we're going to rip him to shreds . And yet he did it out of love .
Ray ComfortAmen . You haven't seen your neighbor's chihuahua would beat up any bull Militant . Chihuahua , Delicious little brat .
Oscar NavarroWe've covered pre-birth and birth , and now we should move into the life of Christ , which brings us to the next question what does passive and active obedience mean ?
Emeal ZwayneYeah , those are lofty theological terms but when you distill them basically , the passive obedience of Christ is what's been called his penalty-bearing work , and that would be obviously the cross . And then his active obedience would be his will of God obeying work , in other words living that perfect , righteous life . And these are really important . I love what John Owen said . He said the Lord Christ fulfilled the whole law for us . He did not only undergo the penalty of it due unto our sins , but also yielded that perfect obedience which it did require . Christ's fulfilling of the law and obedience unto its commands is no less imputed unto us for our justification than his undergoing the penalty of it is , and so it's important to recognize that that there was the passive and active that Christ did , in his passive obedience , go to the cross and pay the penalty . But in his passive obedience he went to the cross and his active obedience he lived the life of righteousness . And I think , mark , that's some of the points Usually when we share the gospel , we usually share half the story .
Half the story would include the death , burial and resurrection of Jesus . And don't get me wrong , obviously we need all those things and we stress , we highlight , we underline those points . But we must never forget about the life of Christ , because the life of Christ is what brings righteousness . Righteousness , a right standing before the Father . So when Jesus died on the cross , what that did is that brought us all back to ground zero . That made us , if you would , little Adams , we are now without sin , but what is required of the law is righteousness . You know , you often begin to think why was Jesus not the next one born when Adam and Eve sinned ? Why did we have all this turmoil of these wars ? I mean , the law was not even given yet until Exodus , chapter 20 . And then we have these tumultuous things begin to happen . Then we have the silence of God between the old and the New Testament . What is happening in the midst of all of this and I like the way you painted that picture , oscar , not too long ago about almost this hush of heaven , when the angels come to attention as Jesus strips off of his robe , comes down and he dwells amongst the people whom he had created . And then he lives a perfect life , very key . He was birthed under the law , perfectly kept the law necessary , he became subject to the law and as he became subject to the law , he perfectly kept it . He always did that which pleased the Father and always doing that which pleased the Father . And this is what's gonna bring in this judicial act . We hear all the time within the gospel , because when Jesus perfectly kept the law and we break the law now a judicial act needs to take place . We'll get into that in just a moment . But when Jesus perfectly kept the law , now we have the righteousness of God being given to his people , Absolutely necessary . So half the story is we talk about the death of Christ , but we don't talk about the life of Christ . We don't need to be at the place where Adam is at . What we need is to have the same righteousness as Jesus , which is now imputed to those who place their faith and trust in Jesus Christ and repent of their sins .
Oscar NavarroAnd so the the passive work of Christ on the cross makes us innocent . The act of work of his life declares us righteous .
Mark SpenceThat's right . Yeah , that's right . Justification the imputation of words .
Oscar NavarroThat's great . Thank you , mark . You brought up a really important word , which is also part of our next question . What does imputation mean ? Imputation .
Emeal ZwayneWell , imputation would involve the accounting of the righteousness of Christ to the believer . We see kind of this concept of righteousness being transferred in Genesis 15-6 , where we see Abraham and it says and he believed in the Lord and he counted it to him for righteousness . And then Paul references that in Galatians 3-6 and Romans 4-3 , and then he says this , and this kind of brings it to climax in Philippians 3-8 through 9 . He said yet , indeed , I also count all things lost for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus , my Lord , for whom I have suffered the loss of all things and Calculate them as rubbish , that I may gain Christ and be found in him , not having my own righteousness , which is from the law , but that which is through faith in Christ , the righteousness which is from God by faith . So imputation would be the opposite of what , for example , rome or the Catholic Church would view as infused righteousness , where you get a little bit of the righteousness of God and then you grow in it , whereas imputation is the full righteousness of Christ , based on what Mark touched on earlier , that the perfect life of Christ lived out in obedience to the law of God , totally credited to our account through faith .
Ray ComfortI always remember by the word put being in there . I just put righteousness , that's good .
Mark SpenceYou know , when you begin to also think of the imputation of Christ's righteousness , it doesn't just end there , because we also were imputed with Adam's sin . Adam's sin was imputed on us Romans , chapter 5 , I believe it is , tells us and we inherited that sin and we grabbed that sin . God , god , has a hold of that sin , places it upon the Son . And now that imputation , in this case that righteousness , is given to us , it is credited to our account .
Emeal ZwayneThe great exchange you know often .
Ray ComfortI say people whine about the imputation of Adam's sin to us and say that's not fair because I didn't ask to be born , I didn't ask to have this in nature . And so they kind of blame God and whine , which shows a lack of fear of God and lack of Thanksgiving for the gift of life . But it doesn't even work in a court of law to say , judge , I rape that woman because of the imputed sin of Adam , therefore I'm not accountable . No , he's held accountable and we're held accountable . And then you just have to compare what God has done with the imputed righteousness of Christ and suddenly that doesn't matter about this in nature , it's all been dealt with through the cross .
Mark SpenceYou know I like what Sparrow says here . He says God has made God our salvation and he did it at the cross that God has provided a wave escape from God . In God we run from God's wrath by running towards God's grace , which is found in Christ alone . So it's a remarkable quote I love that you mentioned the great
exchange .
Oscar NavarroIt's so important to see our sin in exchange for his righteousness , and I like that you contrasted the difference between the gospel and what the Roman Catholic Church says because , like you mentioned , the Roman Catholic Church says that there is this little seed of righteousness that grows in us , but the imputation says that we have this alien righteousness . Something that was not ours is now ours .
Emeal ZwayneAnd honestly it baffles me . I don't understand how anyone can be an honest student of scripture and come up with any other conclusion that we receive the full righteousness of Christ imputed , not having a righteousness of my own . You know , it's given to me by Christ and it's so clear all throughout scripture and why would you want to flap your arms when you're offered a parachute ? Right .
Ray ComfortTake the parachute and just give up trying to save yourself . But it appeals to the pride of man , right ? You know I want to just do my little bit and I guess that . I know , I guess it comes from not seeing your sin . Once you see your sin and it's true when the law shows it to be exceedingly sinful , you give up , that you're not going to try and flap your arms . You cannot save yourself , right .
Emeal ZwayneAnd you know , there's such a self-evident element to this aspect of the gospel . It's so otherworldly , it's so beyond the imaginative powers of man to come up with something like this . You know what I mean . It's just so divine that God would come and take the place of sinners and exchange with them . You know him taking their sins upon them and giving them his righteousness , and how beautiful it is , and that , as we're going to talk about in a minute how that satisfies the wrath of God and deals with justice and deals with mercy and grace and so forth .
Ray ComfortDid you read that in Spurgeon recently ? Because that's what I read in the Spurgeon Sermon where he said this something that just boosts his faith is that man could never have thought of what scripture gives us there's no way he could come up with a concept of imputed righteousness and a sacrificial death on the cross Absolutely .
Mark SpenceAnd somebody once said religion is man's attempt to get to God , but Christianity was God's attempt and approval and acceptance way to get to man . So there's no way for man to get to God . How do you get to God ? And so what we do is we lie on bed of nails , we go door to door , we memorize different portions of scripture , sit on hard pews , we sit on hard pews , we try to do good deeds , but what we need is righteousness , and this is why that is so important . And because we can't have this righteousness , because we've all broken God's law , god became a man and the person of Jesus Christ . God used Jesus Christ to get to mankind because there's no other way . There's no other name under heaven given among men or by which man must be saved .
Oscar NavarroLove it . What does ? We talked about imputation . What does propitiation mean ?
Ray ComfortIt's just a big word for substitute . You know , christ was our substitute . He stepped in our stead , he paid our fine , so we could be exonerated or dismissed in our case .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , and it deals with appeasement and satisfaction , which results in reconciliation Romans 3 , 24 through 25 , being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is , in Christ Jesus , whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood , through faith , to demonstrate His righteousness , because in this forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed . And 1 John , 2 , 2 , and he Himself is a propitiation for our sins . And so propitiation deals with placating God , and I know that sounds almost , I guess you know , archaic in a sense , or draconian . What do you mean placating ? But no , god is justly angry with the wicked . God abhors sin and wickedness and evil and rebellion , and so Christ was a satisfaction of the wrath of God . He's a propitiation for our sins so that we can be reconciled to God again . That's right .
Mark SpenceSo either Jesus is your substitute , who suffered in himself the wrath of the Father , and in so doing he satisfied the demands of the law , or you have to do it yourself . The choice that lies before you on the table is either Jesus suffered in himself the wrath of the Father , and in so doing he satisfied the demands of the law , or you have to do it yourself in God's prison , which is a place called hell , not in Christless eternity right , not a place where we begin to think it's not going to be a very happy or joyous place . No , it is a place that is set up for torment . It is eternal because our sin is against an eternal God and it requires an eternal punishment .
Ray ComfortWe can't forget that Boy . A day doesn't go by when I almost have my breath taken away by the horror of it . We're for knowing the terror of the Lord . We persuade men , and it's something that much of the church seems to have forgotten . I watched a well-known , wonderful Bible teacher at a massive university and as they panned the crowd , it was just as far as you could see and I just said why aren't we seeing revival If we've got literally millions of Christians in this country ? Why aren't we seeing revival ? It's because we've forgotten the terror of the Lord . We just rather learn apologetics and blah , blah , blah , rather than go out in a desperation seek men because they're dying .
Oscar NavarroYeah , Jesus saved died to save us from the wrath of God . I think that truth is more at risk than many others right now . I mean , you hear people say Jesus died to save us from our sins . Yeah , okay , Jesus died to save us from poverty . People believe that Jesus died to save us from the sickness of humanity , but none of that is as true as Jesus died to save us from the righteous wrath of God .
Emeal ZwayneAnd when you eliminate the righteous wrath of God in your proclamation of the gospel , then it diminishes the love and the grace of God , and what is he saving me from , you know ? So that's why I said earlier that it's so divine . When you weave the entire tapestry of the whole gospel message together , from fall to redemption , it's unbelievable .
Mark SpenceLet me say this , the antithesis . Now , when you fail to grasp this , when you fail , you're going to think that God is now punishing you for sins that you commit , because when Jesus died on the cross , he said it is finished , so he paid in full . Tele-tsdi it is finished , paid in full . When you fail to grasp the full wrath of the Father coming down upon Jesus , you begin to think you have something to add to your salvation . And when you blow it , you're gonna think God is angry with me and he's now going to punish me . And let me say this the Father will never punish his children because he punished his son , jesus , on the cross . Now , this is entirely different from chastisement and correcting whom he loves . He's going to chastise , he's going to correct you , he's gonna do whatever it takes to put you on that straight and narrow path , but he will never punish his children because he already punished his son .
Ray ComfortBesides , he doesn't see our sins . That's right . You know , when I have communion I deliberately let myself go over my sinful past . There's things that I would never let my best friend know about , that were in my mind before I was saved . I'm not telling you and I just let them run past . There's no condemnation , but I know God doesn't . He's forgotten my sins , he's removed them as far as the cast them to see as forgetfulness . But it reminds me of his mercy and what happened on that cross , and that makes my heart burst with gratitude , which is the fuel that drives me to do as well .
Emeal ZwayneAmen . And you know , in connection with the verse that I read from 1 John 2 , that he's a propitiation for our sins . Preceding that , john says these things were written to you that you may not sin , but if anyone sins , we have an advocate with the Father , jesus Christ the righteous . And then he says and he is a propitiation for our sins , he's the advocate , and that word means one who comes alongside to help . Why can he advocate for us ? Because he's our propitiation , so when we sin , he can come alongside and say Father , I paid for that . It's paid in full , it's covered . And that's what just saddens me beyond description when I think of those who are living under a false gospel . It's just what I mean . You can imagine Luther , right when his eyes were finally open to the righteous , will live by faith , and it was like it's him . He did it and his righteousness is imputed to me . And when I sin , that sin is paid for . He's my advocate , he's my propitiation .
Ray ComfortNo longer whipped by an evil conscience , immediately cleansed by the blood of Christ . So you just relax and grace .
Oscar NavarroYeah , to be restored to fellowship with God is propitiation , amen . So here we are talking about the propitiation which requires Christ to go up on that cross and suffer . What is it about Christ's suffering ? What are some important aspects of the fact that here is the incarnate God , fully man , fully God , and he's suffering .
Ray ComfortI think that Christ is one suffer for sins , that just for the unjust , he might bring us to God , and I think the most wonderful thing that humanity could ever hear are those words it is finished , the dead has been paid , you're free from condemnation , the doors of everlasting life have been opened and you're welcomed into eternity by the God that loves your soul . And so his suffering wasn't full . Anyway , we often hear that Christ died for our sins , but that's not the total truth . Christ must suffer . If he had to die for our sins , he'd just need to come and say pass me that sword , it's all over . But Christ must suffer , and it's a horrible . I remember I went to see the Passion of the Christ , sat between two Christian brothers , and I was embarrassed that I went into hyperventilating , just I couldn't breathe when I looked at that cross , but in my heart I was crying for me he dies . It was so real and that portrayed it in all its bloody horror .
Mark SpenceYeah , he was appointed to suffer . He was known as the suffering servant . And being appointed to suffer , there was nothing that was left out from the divine hand of God's wrath .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , and today , when you hear so much of the prosperity gospel preaching , one of the key messages that you hear is that Christians shouldn't suffer .
Mark SpenceRight .
Emeal ZwayneAnd when you look at 1 Peter 221 , when it was talking to servants and their masters , it says look , christ suffered for us . Leave on us an example to follow in his steps . And in Acts 14 , 22 , it says through much tribulation you will enter the kingdom of God . And so oftentimes we have to understand Christ was a forerunner , in a sense . Now we're not suffering for the purpose of the redemption of others , but we suffer according to the will of God . Scripture talks about and we're called to entrust ourselves to him in that regard .
And so that's a part of the experience and there's an association with the sufferings of Christ . I mean oftentimes , when I'm sick or I hurt myself , I'll immediately try in my mind to cast my gaze upon the cross and imagine what Christ endured in my place and recognize how so much , far worse hell is the hell that he's redeemed me and saved me from .
Ray ComfortAnd so that's when I realized I'm a wimp . I just stubbed my toe and it's like oh God , take me home . The pain is unbearable . I mean , it really is a proper stubbed toe , or a hit thumb with a hammer , where you really hit it properly . It's , it's no , it's unbearable . And yet he bore the suffering for the sin of the world . We can't begin to imagine the absolute horror . And it makes because Sam and he makes sense that what he went through .
Oscar NavarroYeah , it wasn't just a physical suffering , we wouldn't be doing it just as talking about the physical suffering , scripture goes far beyond that in saying that in some mysterious way , he became sin . He took on the fullness of the wrath of God . His suffering was a hellish suffering and and you you know that is just something that you'll spend internally just praising God over .
Mark SpenceYou know , you begin to bring this along the journey , down the road , inside your book . Right , god has a wonderful plan for your life . You see what awaits that person who has counted the cost , repented and placed their trust in Jesus . Now the promises that await them are trials , tribulation , persecution and suffering . We fail to hear that from the modern day pulpit . We fail to hear that from the modern day evangelist . We fail to hear them say count the cost . Right , jesus didn't . Jesus came to bring a sword . Right , you're gonna have children that are gonna rise up against their parents and the parents their children . If you look at it , what Jesus went through ? And now there's a call for us to die to self , to not necessarily seek after the white picket fence and greater and bigger barns . But what must I do to walk in the work which God has prepared beforehand ? And I'll tell you , inside that journey , it's going to include the aforementioned trials , tribulations , persecution , temptation . In fact , if you even desire to live godly in Christ Jesus not even if you are , but if you desire to live godly in Christ Jesus you will suffer persecution . We mustn't forget that and that's part of the count , the cost message that we share . That's part of the gospel message .
Emeal ZwayneThink about the disciples rejoice that they were counted worthy to suffer . Shame for his name . You know that was their attitude . It wasn't . Hey God , why would you let us go through this ? Why are you allowing us to be persecuted and beaten ? We're worthy , wow . He counts us worthy to suffer this .
Ray ComfortWell , I've got a long way to go . To be honest , I run from suffering . If I was going to be beaten up and I saw a basket , I'd ask guys to low me down a wall and a basket so I could escape . You know I really would . But yeah , we can't get away from it . There is suffering as a Christian because you deny yourself daily and if you live God in Christ Jesus , someone's going to hate you for his name's sake . If any man suffers , a Christian and bear it patiently , this is thankworthy of God .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , and we don't glorify it by any means or seek it out . But at the same time , as scripture says , a servant isn't greater than his master and our master endured it . And so we understand and part . It's a part of the fall right and the sinful order of the world that we live in , but at the same time we know that God uses it for the good and he glorifies himself through it .
Oscar NavarroAnd scripture talks about different types of suffering . There's a suffering for the sake of persecution , and then there's just life suffering . We live in a fallen and broken world , and our bodies are fallen and broken , loved ones die , bank accounts go to zero and beyond , and so you get this question from atheists , from skeptics of kind of you know , while there's suffering in the world , and so , therefore , god is either not all powerful , not all good , yet the suffering of Christ is the only worldview in which God , the Creator , not only allows suffering , but he himself has suffered , and that's the beauty of the gospel , is that he has suffered so that one day all suffering would end .
Ray ComfortAnd it's a principle of nature too . You look around , it's the storms that make the tree send its roots in deep , and so when we come under tribulation , it does establish strength and unsetilice . And we have to say , and I don't like saying it , but with the psalmist , it was good for me that I was afflicted and I might learn your statutes . And so you look back at the times of trials . That's when you came closer to the Lord , that's when you said I don't like this world . I love you , lord , and I'm on my knees before you and please help me . And we draw close to God in suffering .
Mark SpenceAnd it makes us homesick for a home we've never been to . So our roots don't go down deep here on earth . You know we're currently looking for a house . I told my wife I go , honey , listen , we're not looking for a home , we're homesick for a home we've never been to and the house is all of them . They belong to God . So where is the temporary residency where you would like us to dwell and we're that we might walk in the work which you prepared beforehand for your ultimate glory and for our good ?
Emeal ZwayneAnd you think . Philippians 129 , for to you , as it has been granted on behalf of Christ , not only to believe in him , but also to suffer for his sake . It's been granted , appointed is actually what we're used right there for his sake . I mean talk about how that flies in the face of the modern gospel right . But that's what scripture says .
Ray ComfortModern gospel's Bible must be pretty thin .
Oscar NavarroNext question is what makes the resurrection of Jesus in the resurrection of other historic figures different ?
Ray ComfortWhat other historic ? figures are we talking about ? I mean , are we talking about people in scripture like those that were thrown under the bones of Elisha , etc . Risen from the dead , or Moses body not being found , etc . I think every historical figure compared to Jesus of Nazareth is like a blown out candle compared to the sun at noon day . There's no comparison between who he is and who historical figures are . They're just men . This is God manifest in the flesh . I love the way a great preacher once said that God prepared himself a body and then filled that body as a hand fills the cloth , the express image of the invisible God .
Mark SpenceWe must highlight the fact that Jesus didn't just have the ability to lay down his life , he had the authority . He had the power of the authority to rise himself up from the dead . No other historical figure had the ability to do that . Anybody that was risen from the grave was through the power of God . Somebody once said , ray , as you were saying earlier , when he said Lazarus , come forth . The reason why he said Lazarus , because if he didn't say Lazarus , everybody what ? He came forth from the grave . Jesus had the authority not just to lay down his life , but to raise it back up .
Ray ComfortNot only that . If anyone said that they're crazy , they just didn't even say it . Because you go around saying I have power to raise my body from the dead , you're going to be put in a mental home . And never a man spoke like this man . Never a man said the things that this man said . I'm the resurrection and the life , he that believes in me , though he dies . Yet surely live , malphanot at this , for the hour is coming and all that are in the grave shall hear my voice . Never a man spoke like that man .
Mark SpenceYou know , the resurrection is the exclamation point to Jesus dying on the cross and saying that he has the ability to forgive sins . And there is no other world view , no other world religion that can boast of having a resurrected savior , and Christianity is the only true story where the hero dies for the villain .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , and that's what I was going to say . You know , the contrast between Christ and any other historical figure was that he rose again from the dead and that he verified all that he said . But we have to understand too , as Peter talks about , that he has begotten us again through the resurrection of Christ from the dead . So his resurrection is tied into our regeneration and it was again the demonstration of the fact that he had power over death and the grave and that he truly was the Son of the Living God .
Ray ComfortAnd one thing I just love meditating on is that the most profound sound ever heard in the universe was the tiny beat of the heart , the Son of God , in that grave , that first . That resounded throughout the universe , because that meant the sacrifice was accepted by the Father everlasting life as a free gift to humanity .
Emeal ZwayneAnd if Christ is not raised from the dead , like Paul said , we are still in our sins . Of all people , we are most hopeless . Yeah , our life is vain , yeah .
Ray ComfortAnd so we still have a good time anyway .
Mark SpenceRight Now . Jesus said I'm the resurrection in the life . He who believes in me , though he may die , he shall live , and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die . I like the whole thought of Jesus paid a debt he did not owe . Because we owed a debt we could never pay . So God became something he never was and that is a man , so that we can become something we never were in the side of the Father , and that is righteous . Adam was not righteous before the Father . He had a clean slate , but he wasn't righteous . He didn't have this righteousness that was required , so that's great guys .
Oscar NavarroThank you
so much . The next question is incredibly important , often overlooked and forgotten or not talked about , which is he is not just resurrected , but he has ascended . And so what does that mean , and why is it so important to the gospel that Christ has ascended ?
Mark SpenceYeah , well , obviously that refers to the bodily , the physical bodily taking up of Jesus into the heavens to be at the right hand of the Father . Now , why is that so key ? So , jesus , when he became a man , he came to serve a purpose . This demonstrates , when he was ascended , that it signaled the end of his earthly ministry , which also leads to the fact that it was a successful it was a very successful journey that Jesus had , so the period of his human limitation was at an end and that he had come to do all that he came to do . That it was ultimately accomplished and it came to that end . So it marked the heavenly return of Jesus . As he's going back up to heaven , he's now going to be glorified with the Father . Now we see that he had a taste of that glory on the Mount of Transfiguration , but ultimately , the glory that was due to Jesus is now given at that point when Jesus is ascending into heaven . So what is he doing ? Now ? He goes to prepare a place for us . Now , this is the key part , and this is what I think people are missing more than anything . Why the ascension is so important . It indicates the beginning of his new work as the high priest , not standing , not pacing . He is sitting at the right hand of the Father because it is paid in full , there is no other work to be done , and the veil is now torn , not from bottom to top , but from top to bottom , signifying that when Jesus died on that cross , when he shed his blood , the sacrifice was acceptable to the Father . Now Jesus shed his blood at least two other times that we know of , when he was here on the earthly ministry . Right , we had the circumcision and we also have . He sweat as if you were great drops of blood . But that's not what it means . When there must be a shedding of blood for the remission of sins , there must be a shedding of blood that leads to death . We can't forget that . So the shedding of blood , it leads to death . Jesus rises again . Many eyewitnesses see him , and then he ascends into heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father , to ultimately demonstrate to the Father , and he shows his scars . Listen , I'm here . I did the work . I paid a debt I did not owe , because they owed a debt they could never pay , and this is why the ascension was so important to sit at the right hand of the Father .
Oscar NavarroYeah , jesus lives , rules and present tense reigns . He ascended . The fact that he ascended is proof that Christ is King On earth . Men mocked him , but now , right now , in heaven , angels adorn him . He is the King that is reigning . Currently , I think sometimes we live as though the King is on a hunting trip , that he's off somewhere and not really ruling and reigning . But right now , today , christ reigns , and that's why the ascension is so important to talk about .
Emeal ZwayneAnd you consider the fact that and I think this is often overlooked but he lives . He's at the right hand of the Father now and he lives to ever make intercession for us . That's amazing to think that he ascended and now he stands and intercedes on our behalf . I love it when people pray for me In fact , it's one of the most coveted things and people know that when someone says , hey , I'm gonna pray for you , I don't just take it lightly like , oh , I often think on it and there have been many occasions in my life where I've sensed the prayers of God's people being used . But Jesus is praying for me , he's interceding on my behalf before the Father and that's tied to his ascension .
Ray ComfortSo I talk about the ascension , but not so deeply theological . We often see pictures of Jesus ascending up to heaven like be me up , scotty , up like that . But it was nothing like that .
Emeal ZwayneBecause , no , no , no , no , no , no , no , no no no , no Star Trek .
Ray ComfortThe disciples were gazing up in the heavens and the angels or angel came and said Menegali , why are you gazing up to heaven ? The same Jesus will come in like manner . So he's coming . How's he coming in like manner ? He's coming in power and clouds and great glory . Therefore , when he ascended , if he's coming in like manners which he ascended , he would have ascended in power and clouds and great glory , and not the be me up Scotty thing .
Emeal ZwayneAnd you know , I know we're wrapping up here , oscar I just kind of wanted to summarize a few thoughts on Jesus , because he's who we're talking about and I can't think of a greater topic to ever discuss as human beings . But you think of what Philip Schaft said about Jesus . He said this Jesus of Nazareth , without money and arms , conquered more millions in Alexander , caesar , muhammad and Napoleon . Without science and learning . He shed more light on things human and divine than all scholars and philosophers combined . Without the eloquence of schools , he spoke such words of life as were never spoken before or since and produced effects which lie beyond the reach of orator or poet . Without writing a single line , he set more pens in motion and furnished themes for more sermons , orations , discussions , learned volumes , works of art and songs of praise than the whole army of great men of ancient modern times . So we broke it down theologically today , but let's remember that Jesus is our savior and our redeemer and we get to have that intimate , personal , close relationship with him . And years ago I penned this poem and for anyone who's listening , whether you're a believer or not , I wanna encourage you to remember all that Jesus was , to focus on the life that he lived and again to remember the purpose of it . I have a valiant hero who one day rescued me . He found me bound and bondage and chose to set me free , although he knew the greatness of the price he'd have to pay . Without a hesitation he gave his life away . I could not understand it , and still I do not know why he treated me as friend when I had treated him as foe . If only you would meet him , you'd see that he is true and he'd become your hero and gladly rescue you . Come now , adore his beauty . Observe his pleasant ways . Sit silently and listen and fix a steady gaze . Hear him speak his gentle words that calm the raging heart . See him mend and heal the lives that once were torn apart . Hear his sayings of wisdom . See his brilliant joys . Observe the great and violent hate his holy love destroys . Come and see humility that cannot be compared , selfless generosity that gave and never spared . See compassion when he wept and passion when he prayed . See the spotless righteousness he constantly displayed . He truly is a hero , and I'm glad that he is mine . Jesus Christ , the King of Kings , the Lord of Lords divine .
Ray ComfortAmen , and that was all by memory . For those of you who are listening , an old memory , that's wonderful . Thank you so much . The A through Z yeah , go on , do it . Go on , do it by memory .
Emeal ZwayneAll right , let's see if I can remember it . So in scripture we know that Jesus is called the Alpha and Omega , which means the beginning and the end , literally the A and the Z . And so years ago Ray actually sent this to me and I committed it to memory . I don't even know who the author is , but it goes like this , beginning with A to the author , he's an altogether lovely one . To the builder , he's a chief cornerstone . To the chef , he's a bread of life . To the doctor , he's a great physician . To the educator , he's a master teacher . To the florist , he's a rose of Sharon in the lily of the valley . To the geologist , he's a rock of ages . To the horticulturist , he's a true vine . To the intellectual , he's a wisdom of God . To the jeweler , he's the head of this church , which is a pearl of great price . To the king , he's a prince of peace . To the lawyer , he's a judge of all the earth . To the manufacturer , he's a creator of all things . To the newsman , he's a glad tidings of great joy . To the occultist in search of the light , he's a light of the world . To the philanthropist , he's a gift of God . To the queen , he's a king of kings . To the rabbi , he's a messiah . To the scholar , he's a truth . To the theologian , he's an author and the finisher of our faith . To the undertaker , he's a resurrection in the life . To the waiter , he's a one who came not to be served but to serve . To the extra technician , he's a word of God before whom all things are naked and bare . To the youth , he is a life , and to the zealot , he's a son of God for whom life is worth living .
Ray ComfortAnd you remember that by one unpronounceable acronym . I would like to do a little wrap up too , if I may . The Bible says of Jesus if any man loves not the Lord , Jesus Christ , let it be anathema . So the whole of humanity , their fate , depends on what they do with Jesus . And I'll never forget I'd been a Christian about four or five days , and before I was a Christian I'd signed my name just when I was doodling . Signed my name , signed my name , and I just found myself writing the name Jesus and I thought what is going ? on here the Holy Spirit will speak of me . And one thing that so sits on my heart is an experience I had . I got a movie called the Sun Worshippers . I'd been a Christian about a week and I had these surface 330 surface of gathering to watch a movie I'd made Waybay , then called A Place of Her Own . I had this 16 millimeter movie called the Sun Worshippers , 30 minute documentary about the Jesus revolution in California , so I planned to show it to these surfers after my surf movie 150 ran out of the room as soon as I mentioned the name Jesus . But I showed it to myself on the wall of our home and as I looked at the wall , right at the end of the movie , it had the scripture and you shall know the truth , and the truth will make you free . And it was like I hit the wall because I didn't know I was looking for truth . There was a cry in my heart and the only analogy I can think of is that it's like a baby who's first born taken from the womb and it immediately screams . And you get a microphone and say , excuse me , baby , what are you screaming about ? And the baby says I don't know , I have no idea , I'm just screaming . So you take that newborn and put it on the breast and it circles and as you get up to it you say excuse me , how do you feel now ? The baby says this was what I was looking for . I had no idea because I'd never experienced it , and that's my testimony . I had a cry in my heart for truth and I had no idea what I was looking for . And the book of Acts speaks of men groping to find God . The understanding is dark and they're alienated from the life of God through the ignorance in them because of the blindness of their heart . And God , by His grace , takes us to the truth , gives us light and takes us out of darkness into His glorious kingdom .
Oscar NavarroAmen , thank you so much . Thank you EZ , ray and Mark for this , and thank you for our partners for listening in . We hope and we pray that this is serving you guys , inspiring and equipping you in proclaiming the great gospel .
Mark SpenceGod's Grace . God's Grace .
Emeal ZwayneGod's Grace . How could we ever talk enough about Jesus ? I seriously like to think of the difference . I think you , oscar , especially having been an atheist the switch of the value of the name of Jesus to you , right , I mean from just disdain Christians Jesus to suddenly the name above all names for you .
Oscar NavarroYeah , you come to realize that the entire created order , all of the cosmos , is centered on one person that was born 2000 years ago in the Middle East . Or , even more personal , my entire life is dictated by this man , god Jesus of Nazareth . Amen , the God man .
Emeal ZwayneWell , there you have it , friends . Don't forget to check out so many lines , so few . Daniels , the Living Waters Mug , the Evan Study Bible , livingwaterscom podcastlivingwaterscom with your thoughts and comments , and remember to please subscribe on all the podcast platforms , leave a comment and tell your friends about it . Thank you for joining us , friends . We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast . The ultimate cure still , yes , still for insomnia . Ooh , more expense fancy .