I read an interesting thing about President Abraham Lincoln , who was once embroiled with a dispute with a colleague and unable to get his opponent to see the error of his thinking . Lincoln said hey , let me ask you a question how many legs does a cow have ? Well , a four , of course . Okay . Well now suppose , continue the president . What if you call the cows tail a leg ? Well then , how many legs does a cow have ? Well , five , replied the man . See , that's where you're wrong , replied Lincoln . Calling a cow's tail a leg does not make it a leg . Wow .
Speaker 2That's quite a tail .
Speaker 1You see the world we live in seems obsessed with calling a cow's tail a leg , for fear of offending the cow , who insists that he has five legs . Tolerance has become a virtual idol and the number of its worshipers seems to grow daily . And faced with so many different claims to what is true or what is the proper way to live one's life , and tolerance has become the only acceptable response . A person who believes in transcendent truth is regarded by the world with suspicion and paradoxically intolerant .
Speaker 3["If I Could Turn Back Time"] . If I could turn back time .
Speaker 4Tony , can you mute my microphone If ?
Speaker 3I could find a way , I would take back the things that hurt you and you'd stare .
Speaker 2Hey , that's gonna be the sickest beginning .
Speaker 3Why does it do that ?
Speaker 1That song's big right now . Tracy Chapman I think it was in the 80s came out with that song originally .
Speaker 3Oh was it . I thought it was . Sher was the original .
Speaker 1No , I think you're right . I'm thinking of a different song .
Speaker 3Yeah , sher , that's right , you know Sher . You guys know how old Sher is now 102 . Well , ray would know , because he's Sunny Bono .
Speaker 2I knew that was coming . I used to look like Sunny Bono , I know .
Speaker 1He was a good looking guy .
Speaker 2Oh yeah , it was . Here's a mirror . Here's a mirror somewhere , wasn't it ? A what , who ?
Speaker 3A mirror . He was a politician . I don't know if he was a mayor .
Speaker 2He became a mayor . Of course he did . Yeah , thanks a lot .
Speaker 3But you guys know how old Sher is now Take a guess she probably is 78 . What date ? 78 . 86 . Hey , pretty close . 77 . Oh 78 , yeah .
Speaker 1I think maybe we'll just give it a year .
Speaker 3Wait , you asked this . You don't even know the answer . Well , I thought it was 78 .
Speaker 2I hope she's not listening . She'd be hurt .
Speaker 3She looks amazing . Yeah , I just saw a picture of her . Seriously , she looks like she's 25 .
Speaker 1Really , yeah , hmm , yeah , makeup Face lifts , and Is that like bowtie Wigs ? I was watching this guy on YouTube and he breaks down celebrities on the way they look through the years .
Speaker 2I've seen that of Sher and it's very cruel yeah .
Speaker 3I just saw that one . Yeah , it's horrible .
Speaker 1You can tell how many surgeries somebody's had , and he's breaking down every single surgery by the year ?
Speaker 2How old is the guy that's doing it ?
Speaker 3That's the guy that Ray gets very offended when anyone makes fun of older people .
Speaker 2Oh man , because all people are young people and wrinkle skin . That's where they are Right .
Speaker 3That's pretty much true . That's definitely you , yeah .
Speaker 4Because you are a young person .
Speaker 2So , guys , speaking of turning back time , my question is I wish we could do that .
Speaker 3We could not , we wouldn't know . My question to you guys is what would you do in terms of if you could go back and do redo or undo anything ? What would it be ?
Speaker 1I'll get a real job .
Speaker 3I'll get a real job . I can help with that . Meeting you , meeting me , meeting me , ray , is that an undo or a redo Undo ?
Speaker 2Undo .
Speaker 3Yeah , no . But you know guys , ray and I have pretty much been in an open book . You and Mark Oscar , not so much . Ray was honest about being the kingpin of major apple stealing heists back when he was a kid . Yes , I used to stay up all night with apples .
Speaker 2Well , I had what was called an eel spear . You know what an eel spear , your spear . I can't say the word spear , spear , spear , spear . I mean sharp point into eels , eel spear . And I used to go through the hedge and spear the neighbors apples and pull them back . What a wicked man Ray . And we had orchards that I used to steal from around the neighbor . That's a real brand . What ? A terrible person . I should have been disciplined for it , but my parents never found out .
Speaker 3Can we make up for that discipline ?
Speaker 2I have already .
Speaker 3Just by existence . Look , I confess to annoying my bus driver , Phil , by daily thanking him . I wish I could do that .
Speaker 2I think even if you kept your mouth shut , it would have had the same effect .
Speaker 3Yeah , that's true . That's true . I'm surprised , seriously . He never , like you know , as the bus was slowing down and I stood up to walk out .
Speaker 2but the brakes on . He's at the door now .
Speaker 3Yeah , we've found him . Yeah , Phil rhymes with kill . But Mark and Oscar , you guys never like talk about your past . We're redeemed why ?
Speaker 1Mark , you , he was gonna be a burglar . Oh yeah , I was listening to my senior year . I wore a brand new clothing item every single day at high school that I stole You're kidding .
Speaker 2No , stop he's , he don't laugh .
Speaker 3That's terrible Waa waa , I'll cry instead . Wait , you did . You wore a new pair of clothing . Yes , that you stole no-transcript . Where'd you not know new outfit , but a new ? I knew something new like a shirt , pair , pants . Yeah , what . Where'd you steal it from ?
Speaker 1JC pennies . So where you were boy , no .
Speaker 2So you just cruise through and we better send a check to JC . So you still 700 pair of socks and a penny to JC mark .
Speaker 3What would you say , ray ?
Speaker 2He's told 700 pairs of socks , mark terrible .
Speaker 1I was absolutely . Yeah , it was , such were some of you .
Speaker 3I really said , I really started to get into stealing just before I got saved point makes my apple seem not so bad terrible look at Oscar trying to be the nice , perfect little brown angel .
Speaker 2Always the racist statement . Oscar used to steal Lamborghinis .
Speaker 4Yeah , I , I don't know where to start . I mean , I got , I can rattle it off . I got kicked out of three schools one time for giving my own teacher a bloody nose . I've been to night in jail . I've threw rocks at Ferraris . What do you where ?
Speaker 3do you see ? This Is all new . How long have we known you ? We've never heard this .
Speaker 2Well , did we do this before the podcast ? Did this come up before ?
Speaker 4In my interview All of this last week .
Speaker 3We're gonna be talking afterwards , Oscar .
Speaker 2So easy . How many schools are you kicked out of ?
Speaker 3Uh , I'm surprised you surpassed me two . Two , wait . Two for you , two for me three for you .
Speaker 1Yeah , three , two and I'll kick out of one .
Speaker 3Yeah , but you've been to 400 schools .
Speaker 1One two , three , yeah , 14 .
Speaker 3You were kicked out of , oh , the bible college . I was kicked out of all places he was .
Speaker 4He's kicked out of all places . Dory time with Mark .
Speaker 3All right friends , hey , hey hey , we got some exciting stuff for those of you watching this video on that special platform that we've talked about before . You see a bunch of stuff on the desk . Oh , look at this glorious , we were showered . Seriously . That box , oscar , it's massive , unless a weighed 50 pounds or more . So all of us have our goodies here from dear friends , and I want to read this seriously you guys blew us away , honestly , thank you . These are they called themselves our most avid living waters podcast listeners . They're from the Moore household . We have daily grace , dabney , dobson , delight , dane and Dandel I'm noticing a theme , yeah or the D's . They said we just love y'all . They sent us this card . Let me just read a little bit of this . They said hello from some of your most avid Podcast listeners in Virginia and happy , happy new year . We just wanted to put together a very small token of our appreciation for y'all and the many , countless hours of encouragement , edification , instruction and , of course , some good amusement and laughs here and there . You all have really poured into us and many others . We truly consider y'all among our very best friends , though We've never met , visiting y'all and the ministry someday is most certainly toward the top of our bucket list someday , lord willing . Wow , thank you guys . Yeah , so what did I get ? A ginormous . I've heard of family size . This is party size . Uh , peanut butter . You guys know I love peanut butter , I love I love peanut butter chocolate . Uh , I got . Uh , we got a bar here . Chocolate bar $1,000 bill . Yeah , right , right , comfort , where's your stuff ? Right , I took it all home last night .
Speaker 2They gave us , uh , uh , handmade a little porcelain thing of sam , exactly as well as red collar . His glasses were exactly right . I gave it to daniel because he collects them and gave us whole stack of stuff . So I called them last night and spent 20 minutes on FaceTime with them . Oh , you did they got this 13 in the family , wonderful family and they said things that just blew me away . Number one They've got 25 chickens .
Speaker 4Do they really know I ?
Speaker 3guess your best friends .
Speaker 2Wait , that's how many you have 24 , 25 or soup , and I have it . So both of us and this is what I just so love they breed dogs .
Speaker 3Oh , they're really kidding .
Speaker 2Yeah , let me show you the sort of dogs they breed . Oh why ? How do we get them ?
Speaker 3Wow , do they sell them online ? Yes , they're big dogs .
Speaker 2I said do you have any dogs ? And they see you got 26 ? What ?
Speaker 1kind of dogs is that ?
Speaker 2That's a newfoundland , it's absolutely huge they were going to send me one when Sam passed on , but they figured it would be too heavy on my bike .
Speaker 3Your house can fit in .
Speaker 1You can ride it like a horse .
Speaker 4Listeners if you want to send as many dogs as you want to Ray comfort .
Speaker 2Oh , absolutely love them . So we had a ball . They gave me little gifts for Lucy . I saw that one that's great .
Speaker 3I think it was wonderful .
Speaker 2I've said to them , we've never had such thoughtful gifts .
Speaker 4That's what I looked at . I'm like man , these guys are close listeners because each gift that we got is so unique , to like one or two things we said on the podcast .
Speaker 3Big time . And then we've got bars of soap and a hat . And they sent a movie for my grandkids Unbelievable and they put hat and an archer on the back too . And those singing lessons . Yeah , I need those , I got to say that I got . What'd you get , Mark ?
Speaker 1I got socks that I'm absolutely thrilled to death with . There's nothing that brings me more joy to my flesh than putting on a brand new pair of socks .
Speaker 4That's what I mean . You mentioned that .
Speaker 1I'm so excited . My wife opened up their trunk yesterday . We went out on a little date and there were brand new socks back there . She's all you're always buying socks because I love them . I love , love , love socks .
Speaker 2Mark , you are the nightmare for the name of claimant people because you just said you'd be thrilled to death . I can't say that .
Speaker 4I repute , I repute . I got two bags of coffee , one of them I've actually heard of before . Roadmap Coffee Works , so thank you so much . Listen to this easy it's cranberry , milk chocolate and pecan pie .
Speaker 3Isn't that sound amazing ? You know what I'm mad ? Oh him , that can't even be real . Hey , give what you say Another gift will come .
Speaker 4This is my favorite , those they sent me suspenders and they say for Oscar , you said you'd wear them , my friends . Podcast , episode 212 . Don't think I won't . Yeah , you don't need to remind me , I will wear them , that's for sure . Yeah , sure it will .
Speaker 3Yeah , please send Oscar pants that go up to abs . He loves those . All right . Well , thank you , guys , so much . Thank you , you blessed . Our socks off , and here we have a comment . Or for Mark , his socks on . Oh , socks on for Mark . Here's a comment . Friends , this is from E and E Connell . Thank you , friends . As a subject line , my husband and I have been watching your YouTube channel for a few years now . We love Ray's method of evangelizing . It has given us many tools to use when we want to speak with people about the Lord and His glorious gospel . I recently had started listening to the podcast while I clean homes for a living . It makes me enjoy cleaning because I get to laugh , be edified and rejoice in the word Praying . You all , continue to share the truth boldly and never forsake your first love , the Lord Jesus Christ . Thank you , brothers , for all you do . God bless you , amen . Thank you for that encouragement and it blesses us to know that people you know they maximize their time Forget our podcast , but just when people are listening to the word or worshiping the Lord while they're working , it's such a joy . Is that superglue for your lips also , please , please .
Speaker 4It's cappuccino flavored . Oh no , Chapsnic .
Speaker 3Coffee flavored chapstick . I got some too . I got to look at mine here in a bit . All right , friends , this podcast was brought to you by the School of Biblical Evangelism . Textbook 101 Lessons how to Share your Faith Simply , effectively and Biblically , the Way Jesus Did . Yes , we do have an online version , but I don't want to promote it today , just the textbook of which Mark Spence had a hand in . Did you , what did you do ? True , pretty much , wrote it .
Speaker 1No , boy , it was a fun project . Yeah , it was 125 lessons to begin with , but Lynn Copeland pulled out the scalpel and brought it down to 101 . Oh , lynn's amazing , that's not so bad . Yeah , sure , we moved all the good stuff .
Speaker 3All right , friends , make sure to check it out . That's the School of Biblical Evangelism textbook . Don't forget the Living Waters mug , the evidence study Bible , all at what . Yeah , I got a little living waters Like wow , good job , mark .
Speaker 4Why do you make me do something like that ?
Speaker 3That's my challenge to see if you can keep up every day . All right , friends .
Today we are dealing with a very important topic , one that has , as of late , sparked a lot of fire Fire . Now , we know that people will be listening to these podcasts all through the years , and so this may be , in one sense , old news , but it's always current , because Christians are always wrestling with these sorts of things , and the question before us today is is it wrong for Christians to go to a gay or transgender wedding ? I'm just imagining someone who just got out of prison in some third world country where they don't have internet access like they do here , and cushy why is it a third world country ? Cushy beds with fluffy pillows ? I don't think third world countries exist . They don't . Anyway , yeah , yeah , we are the first world country . Sorry , fourth world country .
Speaker 1One , two , four , five . Yeah .
Speaker 3But no , I'm using that as an example , as a contrast from how you know . I just watched a video on how they treat prisoners in Japan . Really , they're humane , but these guys are like disciplined . They have to fold their blankets a certain way or you would thrive . I know I'm like I could be a prison guard there he's gonna volunteer . No , it'd be a prisoner , yeah really , you know what I'm the best . I would actually enjoy that .
Speaker 2I've seen those programs that I got arrested overseas and they throw in prisons . It's horrific . I can't even watch them . They're so horrible . No , our prisons here are really nice , they're resort , they're California yeah .
Speaker 3You're the one who spent time in jail . Well , I , yeah , but no , I was just saying that to say you know , imagine someone coming out from a prison in a country where they don't have access to anything , and this was like 30 years later . And they hear what we just asked . Like the question , like , is it wrong for a Christian to go to a gay or transgender wedding ? What do you mean ? First thing that you do , like , what do you mean ? What is a transgender Right ? That would be one thing . And then what do you mean ? A gay wedding ? There's no such thing , but boy have times .
Speaker 2And what do you mean ? A wedding ?
Speaker 3Yeah , pretty much these days . So , guys , this is something that I think our listeners would appreciate us addressing , and I want to do so today , tactfully and respectfully , but genuinely and authentically and openly , because I was trying to give you more adjectives .
Speaker 2I was just going to say . This is Mr Phasaurus .
Speaker 3So yeah , so let's kick this off and get everyone's input on that . Ray , I'll start with you .
Speaker 2No .
Speaker 4Thank you for joining us today .
Speaker 2I wouldn't go . I just wouldn't even think of it , especially when we're talking about someone who said I would go and take a gift . Well , why don't you take a party hat as well ? If you're going to celebrate something that's called a wedding , that is not a wedding , it's a call it anything you will a celebration between two homosexuals or whatever , or transgender people that are going to be partners , or whatever but it's not a wedding . A wedding is something that's wholly sanctified by God and instigated by God , and it's between a man and a woman . So I would not put a stamp of approval on it and say , oh , this is fine , here's a gift , here's a party hat , let's all party together . The prodigal's father didn't throw a party until after the son was repentant . That's when you rejoice , that's when you celebrate , that's when you put on a party hat and kill the fatted calf . And Peter would love to hear that Peter . Peter would love to kill the fatted calf . No , sorry , let me just say that again Kill the fatted cabbage , yeah .
Speaker 4I'll be transition out of that one , the living vegan translation .
Speaker 2Right , well , that would be a good idea to put out a living vegan translation .
Speaker 3The pages can be lettuce leaves they have to be .
Speaker 2Can't kill the trees .
Speaker 3Yeah , but , ray , that's really a great point . The fact that we even call it a wedding is so insulting to the institution , the institution of marriage that the Lord established . And yeah , and . So , mark , what are your thoughts on this ?
Speaker 1There's no way that I would attend a wedding ceremony of two guys , two girls , a guy who thinks he's a girl , because marriage has already been defined right and whenever it was , the US Supreme Court came along and tried to redefine it , which it was unsuccessful . And in 2008 , we had Proposition 8 , no on 8 , stop the hate , don't discriminate . And I remember I was out in Hollywood Boulevard and I was holding one of those , a sign going up against the proposition , and I was open air preaching and there was an actor from a show called Desperate Housewives that came up against me and people recognized who he was . They were all super excited . Very eloquent man graduated from USC and he said man , listen , stop the hate . I mean , what does it bother you that if two guys that love each other , they want to get married ? And I said , sir , look , I'm not hating on anyone , but if you're going to allow two men to get married , well then why not three men ? Why not a man and his dog ? How about a woman wanting to marry herself ? Or how about a guy who wants to marry himself because of the tax benefits that's attached to it , who's been diagnosed with dual personalities ? You can attempt to redefine marriage , but you can't . I read an interesting thing about President Abraham Lincoln , who was once embroiled with a dispute with a colleague and unable to get his opponent to see the error of his thinking . Lincoln said hey , let me ask you a question how many legs does a cow have ? Well , a four , of course . Okay . Well , now suppose , continue the president . What if you call the cow's tail a leg ? Well then , how many legs does a cow have ? Well , five , replied the man . See , that's where you're wrong , replied Lincoln . Calling a cow's tail a leg does not make it a leg .
Speaker 2Wow , that's quite a tail .
Speaker 1You see the world we live in seems obsessed with calling a cow's tail a leg , for fear of offending the cow , who insists that he has five legs . Tolerance has become a virtual idol and the number of its worshipers seems to grow daily . And faced with so many different claims to what is true or what is the proper way to live one's life , and tolerance has become the only acceptable response , a person who believes in transcendent truth is regarded by the world with suspicion and , paradoxically , intolerant because we have an objective stance . Who's that quote by ? I don't know . I said it .
Speaker 3Wow , I love that quote by Lincoln . That's really , really powerful and that , I think , is a reflection of the insanity that's found in the day and age in which we live , where that's exactly what's happened . We've made it acceptable because people just want to randomly and arbitrarily do it . We've accepted calling things that they're not , and I think that this is , more than anything , destroying and doing a massive disservice to the next generation .
Speaker 4Yeah , I wanna take a step back because but you're sitting , because I wanna imagine that , by the nature of the title of this episode , that maybe some Christians are joining us that aren't familiar , because they're really sincerely struggling . Maybe they're like yes , gay weddings are not glorifying to God , but then the way that people struggle and I've discipled a handful of people through this the way they typically struggle sounds something like man . I don't believe in same-sex weddings , I don't believe in gay weddings , but I'm always seen as the enemy in my household or in my family . Would this be an olive branch ? Can I go and not affirm ? And let me start by saying that the desire to not be seen as hateful is valuable and important , because God desires us to love our enemies , and I know in the hearts of every Christian , we know that we're no better than our gay brothers and sisters and cousins and nephews and nieces and uncles and whoever the case . And while I do think that there are ways in which Christians can offer olive branches to reach the lost , the challenge that I see is that when you attend a wedding , you are participating , and that's the key here . You are participating , you are affirming , you are playing witness to something sacred , and so when you attend , that's your role . You know , when we get the invitation , some people are like , oh cool , some people look at an invitation . A secular way of looking at an invitation to a wedding is like sweet , I'm in their top 100 . Oh cool , I get a free dinner . Oh great , there's gonna be a DJ . Oh neat , like they thought about me . But to Christians , a wedding isn't that ? It's not an invitation to a party . It's you being invited to affirm a covenant that God is making between one man and one woman . And because that is your role , my conviction is that I can't attend that wedding , and I've discipled people into looking at it that way as well . Man , we wanna love our brothers and sisters , uncles , nephews , nieces , whatever they are . There are other ways of handing them a gift , there's other ways of spending time with them , but that , for me , is an area that is sacred and defined by the Lord .
Speaker 1You know it doesn't happen much anymore , but you'd see the officiant who would stand up there and say is there anyone that objects ? Yeah , if you have any reason , now is your time . Speak now , forever . Hold your peace . I mean , are you going to stand when the bride or when they both walk down the aisle ? Are you gonna smile when they kiss ? Are you gonna celebrate when you see them at the reception and say congratulations ? I mean , how do you do that with a clear conscience ? Well , when they go in the honeymoon ? Yeah , I mean how do you ?
Speaker 3Yeah , for sure , and you know , I think one of the biggest tragedies today is that we give a sense that compassion and truth are mutually exclusive , and that's a tragedy . Truth is one of the greatest expressions of compassion . How can we have compassion on someone , care for someone , and then not tell them the truth and instead butter them up with a lie or tell them what they wanna hear , or give the impression that we're in support or what have you ? And so I think it's huge . We need to recognize that truth demonstrates compassion and love , and we as Christians can never compromise it . I mean , ray , without the foundation of truth , we don't have anything .
Speaker 2Yeah , we have all these dilemmas . We're thrown into frog and throat . That was one of them . I dealt with it . That is what forsaken the instruction book for humanity , the Bible , and when you forsake that , then anything goes . You know the cow has four legs . Five legs , whatever . Whatever you feel the cow has , because you haven't even looked at what God's word says , which tells us right from wrong , gives us a view of reality that God made male and female in the beginning . You see our origins , why we exist and what's going to happen after death , and the world's in darkness . So it just makes up what it wants to make up . I wonder if we're missing the forest because of the trees when it comes to this whole issue that we are condemning a wedding , when the real issue is that we see sinners who are going to hell . That's the real issue , whether they be adulterers , fornicators , blasphemers , liars , homosexuals . Scripture begins be not deceived . Neither fornicators let me read it Do not know the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God . Do not be deceived , boy . That's well placed . Neither fornicators , nor idolaters , nor adulterers , nor homosexuals , nor sodomites , nor thieves , nor the covetous , nor drunkards , nor revilers , nor extortionists will inherit the kingdom of God . That's the issue . If you see someone getting into a car and it's got no brakes and it's heading downhill , love has to warn and we've got to set homosexuals . It's the same with adulterers , same with fornicators . If you continue in this lifestyle , what you do , whether you pretend to get married or whatever , is irrelevant . What matters Are you going to die in your sins or are you going to die in Christ ?
Speaker 3Yeah , and I think , too , we need to remember that to make light of something that God highlights as radically abominable to him is in itself an abomination . Think of what Romans 1.26-27 says . For this reason , god gave them up to vile passions , for even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature . Likewise , also , the men leaving the natural use of the woman burned in their lust for one another . Men with men committing what is shameful and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error , which was due . When we attend a wedding that is celebrating this , we're in essence just saying , oh , that's really no big deal , and I think that and I'll talk about this more in a moment but I think it goes to the desensitization in our culture today . So I referenced it in the beginning and I want to talk about it , and that is our dear and highly respected brother , alistair Begg started a firestorm by coming out with , I think it was , a program where he was talking about a grandmother that came and asked him for advice about attending her grandchild's wedding and I'm still confused whether it was a grandson or grandchild , but there's transgenderism , involved homosexuality , and Alistair Begg pretty much said that he advised the grandmother to attend and to take a gift , and that the reasoning behind it is that , you know , we don't want to continue to give this impression that we , as Christians are always contrary and that we're not loving , and so on and so forth . But let me say very clearly that Alistair Begg is a solid , godly man who does not affirm homosexuality , who's even publicly stated he would go to prison if he had to in order to stand up for biblical truth and if he was called upon to compromise or whatever .
Speaker 2And at the same time , he's a very sweet guy . I had dinner with him , Kirk and I had dinner with him many years ago and just a very nice guy .
Speaker 3No , he's one of the most respected Bible teachers , one of my absolute favorites . I mean , I love him and respect him and , yeah , and I met him as well . Kirk had him on a television interview and you and I were there for that and I got to . You know , talk to him a bit . Great , great brother .
And to add one other thing he has clarified he is not generally saying all Christians should go to gay weddings , he is saying this specific person in this specific instance , I advised in this way , and so I think , when we talk about this , it's just really clear that we don't get wrong . We want to charitable and not get wrong what he's saying .
Speaker 3Right and I want to you know again . I want to say that this is not a time for us to to be harsh on our brother , and many have been , and that's grieved me deeply , and so I think we can also talk about how do we deal with he also got canceled , didn't he ? A couple of places . Yeah , he was removed from a big radio network and a lot of leaders have kind of pulled back , and so I think the whole thing is tragic . I'm heartbroken because I know that it has unquestionably limited his reach and effectiveness , and I think that's a tragedy , because I don't think it should , but that's how human nature works .
Speaker 2It's ruined a great reputation . If it had been me , I would have said whoops , because I do it all the time .
Speaker 3We know and so we talk about these things . And the reason why we're talking about it is because it is out now in the public , because Alster has been approached and a lot of Christians in instances like this will look and say , well , look , this was a public thing that happened , so it can be addressed publicly . And I would look and say , technically , yeah , it can , and if people choose to , they could . My heart and these sorts of things would always be . Even if it can be addressed publicly , legitimately , if possible , try to address it privately first . Oh , that's so true , because that's what love does . Love covers a multitude of sins .
Speaker 2Peacemaker .
Speaker 3Yeah . So you can look and say , well , this was public , I'm going to do it publicly . And some people that I really respect and love did it publicly and they did it tactfully and wisely . But I would go a step further and say if those who know Alster could have approached him privately and said , brother , hey , we just want to bring this to your attention . If at that point he says , nope , I'm sticking with it , then I think it's great to move forward in that regard . But nonetheless , here's where we're at and I'd like to talk about that . Guys , what do you think about the way people have responded , and how should we respond to things like that ?
Speaker 1Mark that Well , I haven't listened too much to what people have to say about it . I did listen to the briefing with Al Moller and he discussed it and he said listen , my stance has always been what it's always been concerning the subject . It's very simple . I mean , men have been swallowing nonsense since the beginning of time . We need to stick to our guns , listen to what the word of God has to say and leave it at that Easy . You and I we've talked about well , where do you draw the line ? I mean , if someone said , well , if you love me , grandma , I understand , I just got out of prison , but I need some money , would you mind being the driver of my getaway car ? Or listen , what kind of car ? Or sit in the back seat of my getaway car ? Would you be willing to do that ? If you love me , would you be willing to do that ? And that's nonsensical , right . But this is what's happening with our day and age , the way we are normalizing sinful behavior , and we need to be careful of that . You know , we become a generation that laughs when a baby is ripped limb from limb in the womb , yet we cry when someone calls them by the wrong pronoun , right , transgender people . They come along and they say , listen , I want you to accept me for the way I am , but they can't accept themselves for the way they are . Right , I was reading earlier today was so interesting about a group that this transgender community . They promote equality . And if they promote equality , why do they have so many labels ? Right ? This website that I found this stat from says love has no labels . That's the name of the website Love has no labels . And then they proceed to tell us how many labels are found within the LGBTQIA plus , which includes individuals who identify as queer , questioning , intersex , asexual and more Right . So it is a very sensitive subject , but it's a very simple answer . Very simple on how we respond to the midst of this and we don't apologize . This is why I love MacArthur so much . You know , when he goes on CNN and other places , when he's asked a question just states what the Bible has to say . My opinion is absolutely irrelevant . We need to speak the truth . We need to speak it in love to your question and all things were just , were charitable , of course , right , our brother gets a mulligan , he gets a do-over , but he needs to be able to speak up in the midst of this . He's going to be asked this again and I fear for the people that have listened to this that use that as a license now to sin or somebody who's struggling with their own identity and now they're going to head down that route because that's where it's heading . It's a very slippery slope . You know , if I say that I identify as a forefoot to pig me albino , do I get a scholarship for those who qualify for such a realm ? I have no one's listening , that's a forefoot .
Speaker 2Pig me albino .
Speaker 4Ray was like . I wish I was forefoot too I wish I was that tall .
Speaker 1If I said I identify as a paraplegic , do I get a handicap placard ? You know , just because I'm saying that I am , and the truth of the matter is no , we don't , Because with truth there's consequences .
Speaker 3Well , that's the question that I would humbly ask our brother Alastair , and I mean it sincerely . You know , if it were the same situation and that same grandmother , and again with what Oscar said , let's say this was the individual counsel he gave someone . But if it was the same grandmother and she said look , someone just asked me if I would attend their wedding . It's this gentleman who's marrying his daughter and he asked me if I would attend . This is a real long time friend of mine and I care for him . Or , you know , my friend is marrying his animal . I mean , we could think down the line when these things will become legal , because they're already trying for that . What would he say in that regard ? You know , because , ray , the perspective is , if you don't go , it's like you now are showing that you don't care about this person , but no one is saying this means to end your relationship with them . Right , that's very valid . Yeah , we can continue . We can say no , I'm not going to this , but it doesn't mean I'm not going to talk to you as my grandson or love you and so forth , right ?
Speaker 2Absolutely . It's a really hot issue and it's one that I think so many Christians are fearful to even go near , and I'm wondering if maybe it's because we don't want to bear the reproach of Christ . All who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution . Men love darkness and hate the light . So when you bring light into a dark situation , they're going to turn their hatred on you . So , but it's something we've got to bear .
Speaker 3Yeah , yeah . And Oscar , we can say to someone look , I mean and someone brought this point up as well this grandchild was probably already expecting his grandma not to go . He probably . He knows she's a believer , he knows where Christians stand in this regard , and so you know how . Let me ask you this how would you articulate it if it was your grandchild and this scenario came up ? What would you say that's a really good question . I would .
Speaker 4I take them out to lunch dinner , buy them a meal and walk them through something that I've said on the podcast before , which is the idea of respect , protect and reject . It's three part . It's listen . I want you to know that I love you and I respect you as a human being , and if anybody has ever diminished your value and worth as a human being by using homophobic remarks towards you , by belittling you , man , I would stand with you and against that behavior . I respect you . I also protect your rights as a human being , as a fellow American . There are Islamic parts of the world where you would be murdered for this and I would stand against that and for you . But also , please recognize that I just you and I don't agree on our views of sexuality , and so I'm rejecting your view in sexuality . But then I would say this notice that you're also rejecting my view of sexuality , and what ? Because here's the thing is that if you look at me and you say , man , how dare he not go to my wedding ? What you're telling me essentially is you have to agree with my views on sexuality . You are forcing your worldview , your belief system , on me , and if I don't adhere to it , you're gonna push me out of your life and please see , I haven't done that with you . Wow , I'm not pushing you out of my life , so could you respect me in the same way that I'm respecting you ? That's so good .
Speaker 3Oscar , that's good . Oscar , that's good , and I hope those of you listening have found that helpful . That's a great model Because , Mark , I think whenever people think about this they constrict time , which means that they're envisioning the grandchild ass and on the spot , no , I'm not going , and it's just like this boom . But I love that , Oscar , that approach of let's go out to eat , let's sit down , let's cut maybe a little space between asking and sitting down and talking . You know what ? Thanks for inviting me . I'd love to take you out to lunch and discuss that further .
Speaker 1We need to think through these things now . We need to establish our thoughts and the scriptures and how we're going to handle these things , Cause it's not if this is going to happen , it's when these things are going to happen . They will become normalized in our generation . We're going to see things pass more than likely if not our generation , the next generation , where adults will be able to marry kids , or we'll see something become legal that should always remain illegal . It's an insane asylum , right , and we have lunatics that are running the insane asylum . I cannot have listen if it was my son in the same situation , and amen to everything that Oscar said . I want to memorize what he had said . But I will allow them into my house , Like if they were to get married . I would allow them into my house . I would not allow them to be inside the same room . You know it's all right , we're going to bed , All right . Well , you're sleeping in separate rooms , You're in separate rooms . You got to understand that this is not a house like that . So I will love on you . I've shown that I love you . Love is a verb , John Mayer says , but Christ said a verse right , Love , it's an action . It's something that needs to be demonstrated through what we do and how we behave . So they would never question my love for them because I've demonstrated my love for them up until this point .
Speaker 3Yeah , Right , so yeah , and this is really a good thing for Christians to think through and to realize at the same time that sometimes we all land in different places . You know and I think Mark , you and I maybe have discussed this before , I can't remember , but I wrestle with that on a personal level Like , would I allow my child , who marries someone else , continue to come to my home and to like be part of family gatherings and family events ? And the reason why I'm thinking through that is because how does that impact the next generation within the home ?
Speaker 1Right , and that's a great point , Cause it depends on the kids . Well , I mean , who's there in the midst of that ? I can't just celebrate and pretend like there's nothing wrong . So I'm talking about me and them directly , individually , with nobody else around , right ?
Speaker 3yeah , and that's the thing you know . I've spoken with family members that have wrestled with that . Like what do I do , you know ? Do I let them just come around together ? Do I say to my child look , I love you , you're my child , but I can't in any way give any sense of normalcy to this . You know , absolutely . It's stuff to wrestle through and think through on different levels and recognizing that , yeah , the heart is man . We want to be alive , we want to reach them and we're going to do it in a way that's not compromising , like you're saying , mark . That's not compromising for you because you're clear , but you're not allowing the occasion for sin within your home , but you're looking at them as two unbelievers and you want to reach them , even though it's your child .
Speaker 1Easy . Would you attend a wedding with a man marrying a woman ? The man is your son . He's a believer , but he's married a non-believer . Would you attend a wedding where your saved son wants to marry a non-believer ? No , absolutely not , see , I mean . So that's
so . What we're demonstrating here is listen , we have convictions and there's nothing wrong with having these convictions .
Speaker 3Yeah , and the reason why I wouldn't do that is because it's unbiblical right , that's right , that's exactly right , he's professing Christ . He can't be unequal . But , ray , I want to bring out this other point that someone mentioned to me and I was like , oh , I didn't even think about this In regard to this whole thing with our brother Alastair and the grandma . So , ray , one thing we leave out often in these situations is what Jesus said in Matthew 10 , 34 to 39, . Do not think I came to bring peace on earth . I did not come to bring peace , but a sword , for I have come to set a man against his father , a daughter against her mother and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law , and a man's enemies will be those of his own household . He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me . He who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me . He who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me . He who finds his life will lose it , and he who loses his life for my sake will find it . And often these words get lost amid the modernized version of Jesus , that Jesus actually brings division between families . Speak to them .
Speaker 2So while we're on the subject of causing division , we might as well go all the way and share the gospel with him . And just yesterday I spent 20 minutes in a very spirited conversation with a young lady who was very angry because her parents were hypocrites . They were professing Christians . I said were they hypocrites ? Yes , ended up with divorce , leaving her scarred . So she had the gospel with her . And there was still that between her and I . I could just feel it . She wasn't saying absolutely . This is meaning a lot to me . I hear what you're saying . She just said but I'm gay . And I said to her what's that got to do with anything ? You are in big trouble with God . You've told me you're a liar , a blaspheme or a thief . And she started nodding . And it's not . We can share the gospel without bringing out the subject . It's gonna make them put the boxing gloves on . That's a good point , they're ready for it , so you can just share the biblical gospel without compromise . And then in the end and she took this , I said and , by the way , can't remember her name . I said , by the way , when you do repent , that means you turn from lying , stealing , blasphemy , fornication , adultery and homosexuality . I said the miracle is that God will give you a new heart so you love righteousness . And she nodded and took my book from me , which was wonderful .
Speaker 3Oh , I'm glad you mentioned that , Ray , too . I was gonna allude to it that we cannot leave the gospel out of these conversations , and I think there's no more fitting predicament in which we can bring it up . And here's why because and we find a tactful way to take it back to Christ . Here's what he said . Here's what sin is . Here's God's wrath and judgment against sin . Here's God's solution for sin . However , the Bible says such were some of you , and that's even referring to homosexuality . It shows that God can change the heart and the person , so it's important that we don't lose that in the midst of it all .
Speaker 1I heard somebody say in response to a homosexual saying I was born this way , and their response was well , that's why you need to be born again . No , born from above . I love that .
Speaker 3But , Mark and Oscar , what do you guys think about that whole element that we often leave out , that Jesus does often bring division , not because we're stupid , zealous , tactful if I can use that word Christians , but it's because we're standing up for righteousness .
Speaker 4Yeah , I think that . I think that I'm glad you said that last part of it , because that verse can often be used and excused to not be tactful , to be a jerk for Jesus . But ultimately , what that verse is reminding us of is that the world rejected Christ , god , the creator of everything . They put Him on a cross and crucified Him , and now , as a Christian , christ lives in you . Right , you put on the Christ , you are hidden in Christ . If they rejected the world , they're gonna reject you , but it's not you who are there rejecting , it's the Christ in you that's being rejected and that's where our comfort comes from , and so this verse is a prime example . Is man , this is picking up your cross is gonna mean sacrifice . It's gonna mean relationships that are strained not because of your behavior , but because of the Christ that lives in you .
Speaker 1Yeah , mark , what do you think ? Yeah , I mean , I agree , I don't think I have anything to add to that . We have to understand that we're gonna get this persecution as Paul talks about Corinthians from outside and from inside , from people that we've labored along with and people that we've just met . If we stand on the word of God , then we're safe , we're fine . I wish that he would have reached out to the people and asked other people what their thoughts were on it and before he gave advice like that . I'm surprised that he did not do that and hence he's being canceled . I mean , I unfollowed Him on Instagram . I don't , obviously he doesn't care , but I'm like you know , I just don't have time . I wanna follow certain people who are just extremists for Christ . If you would write that , just , I want God more than anything and I want God's word to get out there and that's it . But I give them a mulligan . You get a mulligan . I don't know what that means , what that looks like , but I'm not inviting you to speak at my conference .
Speaker 2What is a mulligan ? Did you have one before ?
Speaker 4It's when it grows back after you get rid . I will say this just because , on that note , let me say something as a word of encouragement , which is I remember when I first became a Christian I was so hungry for preaching . This is like pre-social media internet . I was just out there googling away and I come across this old I can still picture it to this day this like generation two internet website and it was Gospel for Life and it was this dude with the weird accent , it was Allister Beg , and I remember I was so blown away because the sermons were categorized by verses and it was like my first introduction into expository preaching and I , because you couldn't stream , then I downloaded those MP4 or MP3 files , whatever they were , burned them onto a CD and would just consume . And so to your point earlier , because we've , you know , I've seen some people like go online and be like , oh , rip Allister Beg , we can't or burn , it's like that's not on the table here . This is a brother who has faithfully served Christ , who still is faithfully serving Christ , and I think you know we're 45 minutes in . It's clear that we lovingly disagree with him , but we should do that charitably , remembering that he's our brother in the Lord , Amen .
Speaker 3And again one of the , I think , greatest preachers of our time and a stalwart for truth , a man who's taken a stance for righteousness uncompromisingly . And so , like I said , I think this is all sad and tragic and my hope is still that this can be rectified . My hope is that our brother would look at this , talk to other respective godly men in his circles and get their input , and be able to look and say you know what , now that I think about it , I actually wouldn't give that advice , and now I see why .
Speaker 4Well , after hearing this podcast . How could you know ?
Speaker 3So , anyhow , well , there you have it , friends . Ray , were you going to say something ?
Speaker 2No Good .
Speaker 3Thank you , friends . Don't forget the School of biblical vandalism textbook Living Waters , Mug evidence study Bible , all livingwaterscom . And don't forget to please write to us . We love to hear from you , Mark . You're staring at me , like you , like me .
Speaker 1No , I was wondering if you're going to ask people to send me socks .
Speaker 3You don't need to .
Speaker 1I just love them .
Speaker 3Please send Mark your used holy socks . He would love them .
Speaker 2It's just going to be a bit weird .
Speaker 3Yeah , it is weird . So anyhow , friends , make sure to all that good stuff Remember podcast at livingwaterscom with your thoughts and ideas and give us those ratings and comments and all that good stuff . Thank you for joining us , friends . We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast . Hey , I'm bringing it back where we have no idea what we're doing .
Speaker 4I think I just heard a glass break .
Speaker 3Oh wait , the Living Waters podcast .