All right , friends . So we're talking today about slavery , and the question is does the Bible support slavery ? Mark , would you say this is one of the things that atheists will pull when you're talking to them about the faith ?
Speaker 2Yeah , but they don't want to hear the answer . Right , I was at Lehigh University and I had lectured on the subject of theodicy , the problem of evil , for an hour at Secular University and then I did Q&A for an hour and a gentleman came up to the microphone and he wanted to bring up this point but he didn't want to hear the answer . So oftentimes and that's very common , right People will bring up an objection , thinking that there is no answer . It's a gotcha moment , and then they go their way . So he wasn't ready that I was actually looking down , looking at my answer and all my notes . For what if somebody actually brings this up ? And he had left and it was like where'd he go ? Took off , see ya , see ya .
Speaker 1Have I ever told you guys about my friend Al A couple of times ? Al who Albino . How about Anna Anna who Anaconda ? Brock brock who broccoli chip ? Monk , ella vader , my favorite , chris p bacon chocolate covered chocolate covered crispy .
Speaker 3Oh no , mark , there's a guy named chris bacon is there I be ?
Speaker 1Yeah , got to have a middle name P .
Speaker 4Chris P , I went to high school with a guy named Jay Walker . No , you didn't yeah .
Speaker 1That's a really good one . Yeah , I was thinking about that again . You guys know one of my biggest pet peeves and I always say this Nobody asks me right names I mean , think about it Of anything you can give your child Like . I mean , people do this kind of thing on a whim . Gerplompo , that sounds good .
Speaker 4Do you recognize it's subjective right ? No , it's not .
Speaker 1It's definitely not 100% objective .
Speaker 2When I was in college , the librarian's name was Willie Wong , so I'd go and ask him a question . I'd go . It'd be Willie Wong if you'd tell me something . That's not right .
Speaker 1You did not .
Speaker 2Yeah , willy Wong , all the time .
Speaker 1Oh , poor guy . Yeah , I mean , look , people today are changing everything . Right , they're changing their gender , they're changing their race , but for some reason nobody's willing to change their name , when their parents did a wicked evil thing and gave them a very tormenting name Like imagine having the last name Comfort or Judas , yeah , judas , I just got a pet peeve .
Speaker 3Is there anyone else ? Would like someone to invent a paper dispenser in restrooms that spits out six feet of paper towel instead of four ?
Speaker 2inches . Where do you get four inches ? Mine's more like two . I find two inches .
Speaker 3I mean seriously . You go think your hands are wet , outcomes Just not quite enough To dry your hands .
Speaker 1Yeah , and not just that , but then to get another one . It's like a four or five second delay , yeah . So you're standing there Waving your hands , yeah , but just spit out six feet . That would be ridiculous .
Speaker 2You know what I was doing here . I was Before , it was before I'd leave the bathroom , I would do the motion detector so somebody would have extra , and then we all got a message saying you can't do that . Do not do that , mark . I'm thinking I'm being courteous for the next person .
Speaker 1That is one of the most unsanitary things in the world . I'm not going to say who it is , but I know someone who owns a restaurant and I lobbied , I lobbied that they would change that and finally they did , because it would just stay out . No , because there's some machines where , yeah , they come out , and you pull one and another one would come out . Oh , my favorite , the most unsanitary , the most unsanitary . Do you know how many people are washing their hands by that ? Their water from the ?
Speaker 2filter is splashing on the paper towel . I was the last person . No , mark , no , no , mark , no , mark , I'm saying at these restaurants and places like that .
Speaker 1You wash your hands , right yeah . And then the thing comes out Someone else comes and washes their hands . Maybe they don't pull the towel , maybe they don't , whatever , people come in and out All right .
Speaker 2So you're saying somebody here at work is going to wash their hands . They're going to see that paper towel .
Speaker 1No no .
Speaker 3Here at work . It's an thing I don't like the way I see . That's what it is . I never like touching public restroom door handles with my hands always use my chin .
Speaker 1I can't always , okay . But seriously though , as I was singing about that , um , why in the world I forgot what I ?
Speaker 3was gonna say listen , I always leave credit on a microwave two seconds this is for the next person .
Speaker 1Yeah , no , no . Now I remember why in the world Now this is what I'm Starting to see more and more Is these bathrooms no more paper towels ? It's just the stupid Air dryer thing .
Speaker 4I can't stand it Seriously . You're there for like Five minutes Trying to get your hand , yeah and I can't reach it With my hand .
Speaker 3Ray uses it as a blow dryer what ?
Speaker 2about these doors that have these little things at the bottom of the door and you use your foot to open it . I like that Because after I open the door , I feel like I need to wash my hands again . This is exactly right , because I notice it after I'm grabbing the door , I felt like an idiot .
Speaker 1I tried to use one the other day and it didn't work for me .
Speaker 2You're using your chicken leg .
Speaker 1So what is it you're talking about ? Because I missed it . No , some doors now in public places . They have a thing you put your foot on to open the door instead of using your hand .
Speaker 4Oh , that's great .
Speaker 1Yeah , but if it's a heavy door , you're sitting there . Why don't you just kick it ?
Speaker 4Have you ever been to one of the restaurants where the restrooms are like the toilets are their own toilets , but then everyone , men and women , get out and they wash their hands in the same spot . I don't like that . No , no , what are you talking about ?
Speaker 1Oh , I saw that at an airport recently .
Speaker 2Big Bear has that . There's a restaurant in Big .
Speaker 1Bear Something doesn't feel right about that .
Speaker 4It's weird to be , Because then women are putting their makeup back on and you're like I'm just trying to wash my hands . It's just really awkward .
Speaker 1Anyway , back to names . Okay , these are real . These are actually real names for girls Monet , Eris and Amen . Imagine calling your kid Amen Forever . Well , forever , yeah .
Speaker 3Shut up Amen .
Speaker 1Okay , these are real boy names Miso , soup . These are like current real names , not made up . Miso , emperor , kale , emperor , yeah , miso .
Speaker 2Emperor Kale Emperor .
Speaker 1Zui Durfla Wait .
Speaker 2Somebody's going to be watching this . I was going to say Durfla could be listening right now and feeling embarrassed .
Speaker 1Harm Almond Dweezil .
Speaker 2We have a friend named Almond . No , we don't . Yeah , it's just pronounced slightly different . It's Frank Frank Nimrod . Facebook COVID no you don't .
Speaker 1Yeah , it's just pronounced slightly different . It's Frank Edmund , frank Nimrod , Facebook COVID and Nutella Facebook . No chance , nutella . Nobody's called COVID . I'm serious , this was an official list of names . All right , friends , time for a cool , classy comment .
Speaker 2Now , wait Real quick . Now do you think Emil is a great name ? Why do you think I go by Easy ?
Speaker 1There are reasons for these things , Mark . All right , Fran , it's time for a cool , classy comment . This is from Daily Grace . Speaking of names , Daily Grace .
Speaker 3That's her name .
Speaker 1It's her real name and Daily is from the Moore family . Remember the people that sent us all those really cool things .
Speaker 4Oh , this is them , this is them .
Speaker 1Yeah , so Daily says this yes , my name Alan .
Speaker 3Yes , she said that yeah .
Speaker 1Yes , my name Alan . This podcast I really like . She's a fan , yes , fan , yes , big fan . Okay , in all seriousness , this is pretty much the only podcast I listen to , except for Ethan Spence's . He should keep doing those , and I really do really like Mark . This is a plug for Ethan .
Speaker 2Listen , ethan is so Ethan's been putting together some videos and he's putting together a vault of videos . Man he is .
Speaker 3This is your boy .
Speaker 2Yeah , he's got a voice . That is amazing for narration .
Speaker 1Well , what happened with his podcast man ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I think he's just very excited about this YouTube channel that he's trying to put together . He hasn't launched it yet . Yeah .
Speaker 1By the way , for those that don't know , we are forever indebted to Ethan Because our little jingle for the podcast . However it goes , we stole that from Ethan . We stole it from his podcast . That's right . He started a podcast .
Speaker 2Our good friend Johnny Na actually made that for him and then we stole it and then he got a really like Listen . And I'll say look up Johnny Na's Spotify . That boy can sing . Yeah , so spiritual he's a godly man .
Speaker 1We just hung out , had dinner together and great , great young man . Okay , anyway , back to Daily Grace . That's a good name . Daily Grace's
comment . My name is Daily Grace and I'm a 21-year-old young lady who lives on a farm with my family in Virginia , usa . Y'all have no idea how much of a blessing your Christ-centered , lively , down-to-earth , inclusive and engaging podcast has been to me and my siblings over the past couple of years . You also have no idea how many scenarios you've come alongside me with and yes , I do listen to the podcast via earbuds Cleaning Our Families , airbnb Y'all are welcome anytime .
Speaker 2Ooh .
Speaker 1Hey yo Guys ready for an Airbnb .
Speaker 2Notice there's no address attached .
Speaker 1Try to find it , and a host of other activities . I truly consider y'all to be among my best friends and true brothers in Christ . Thank you so much , easy , oscar , rain , mark , for the time , love , prayer and devotion you pour into the podcast and the ministry as a whole . Easy , I was at the NOAA conference in Kentucky when you spoke there and have always wished I had met you in person someday , lord willing , it's a dream of mine to visit your ministry someday somehow . Definitely on my bucket list , as you Californians say , and I certainly have some podcast suggestions to make . Hugs , prayers and love in Christ , daily grace . Ps . I so love and enjoy the inside jokes too , from Rotten Motor Oil to Onions to Augustine , augustine To Rat vs Ray , to Alan in Paris and so many more . That's awesome . I can't tell you how much it tickles me that someone appreciates the whole Alan thing .
Speaker 3Well , we could explain what it was . That was season four .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 3Yeah , women in Paris . Yeah , a guy dressed as a statue , all white .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 3Hi , my name's Alan .
Speaker 4He didn't speak English . This TV show had real life . We need to make a Living Waters podcast trivia game . Oh yeah , that's a good idea .
Speaker 1Yeah , but the best thing about Alan remember A when you told him have you kept God's commandments or have you broken them ?
Speaker 3Yes .
Speaker 1What do you mean , alan ? Oh man , this is too much fun today . Alright , friends , this podcast is brought to you by one of our radically revolutionary resources . So Many Lions , so Few Daniels , living Without Compromise in a World in Need of Truth . That's a book by Raymond Comfort Ray . Can we call you Raymond ? No , por que no .
Speaker 3No , my aunts call me Raymond , my mother call me Raymond . Nobody else calls me Raymond . Why do you not like it ? I don't like it .
Speaker 2It's a nice name . Well , I've got scars .
Speaker 3Some teenage girl when I was in high school tattooed my name with a needle on her arm and she wrote Raymond . I said my name's Ray .
Speaker 2It could have saved a lot of pain , like a real tattoo .
Speaker 3Yeah , just with a needle .
Speaker 4Where is she ? I don't know .
Speaker 2That's like 200 years ago Boy , you dodged a bullet on that one .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , ray , good job writing that book .
Speaker 3Oh , can I have a commendation from you ?
Speaker 1Yeah , very good book . Can I call you the Lebanese version of Raymond ?
Speaker 3No , raymond , it is .
Speaker 1Isn't that smooth .
Speaker 3Yeah . That's all right , remon . Remon Sounds like custard . You could just say Ray .
Speaker 1Ray , All right friends , Don't forget the Living Waters mug , the Adventist Study Bible , all that Livingwatercom . Yeah , All right friends . Today we are talking about a topic that is often ignored amongst Christians . But we do not ignore , we take the bull by the horns . Today we're talking about the what ?
Speaker 3Chicago ? The bulls by the horns . I took the bull by the horns and got mocked . You did .
Speaker 2Ray , you were told not to grab the horns no , I wasn't . Ray , how does everybody know that you weren't supposed to grab it , but you ?
Speaker 3Look , it was natural . When a bull moves , you got nothing to grab and there's a couple of handlebars in front of you , you grab them . And that's what I did , instinctively , because I used to ride a bike that's in one of the seasons .
Speaker 1We got to pull that clip , though , and make like a video around it . That would be a good reel . Can you imagine ray's a matador ?
Speaker 2go stand here . We're all red with his new zealand accent .
Speaker 1All right , all all right . All right , all right , friends . So we're talking today about slavery and the question is does the Bible support slavery ? Mark , would you say this is one of the things that atheists will pull when you're talking to them about the faith . Yeah , but they don't want to hear the answer , right ?
Speaker 2I was at Lehigh University and I had lectured on the subject of theodicy , the problem of evil , but they don't want to hear the answer , right ? I was at Lehigh University and I had lectured on the subject of theodicy , the problem of evil , for an hour at Secular University , and then I did Q&A for an hour and a gentleman came up to the microphone and he wanted to bring up this point but he didn't want to hear the answer . So oftentimes and that's very common , right People will bring up an objection , thinking that there is no answer . It's a gotcha moment , and then they go their way . So he wasn't ready that I was actually looking down , looking at my answer and all my notes , for what if somebody actually brings this up ? And he had left and it was like where'd he go ? Took off , see ya .
Speaker 1Yeah , Oscar , you were an atheist . Was this one that you would throw at Christians when you were trying to devour them like a lion ?
Speaker 4Actually yes , and I think it's a really important question to ask . I think sometimes you get the atheists that are trying to do the gotcha
moment . Sam Harris is famous for saying why didn't Moses include thou shalt not have slaves in the 10 commandments , if it's that important , is he ?
Speaker 3considered the elite of the intellectuals , because I think he's really dumb .
Speaker 4I was listening to him the other day . I thought you were going to say something else .
Speaker 3I say that in all love , because he just says anyone with the intellect of Solomon or a little dumber could have written the Bible , and I thought what a statement of ignorance . Hasn't he read the Sermon on the Mount ? Hasn't he read the Sermon on the Mount ? Hasn't he studied the life of Jesus through the Gospels and the wisdom of Solomon ? Hasn't he read Psalms and the comfort that's in Psalms ? I mean just , there's nothing like this .
Speaker 2That's really good . Hasn't he read your book Scientific Facts in the Bible or the Evidence Study Bible On livingwaterscom ?
Speaker 1Shameless plugs . You know , Oscar , when people are thinking about slavery because the Bible does talk about slavery it's in there , of course . Maybe not dumb , that was probably a strong word , yeah .
Speaker 3Ray repent Go ahead .
Speaker 1And repent on there . What would you like to have said ?
Speaker 3Ray , I'd like to change it to he's not as intelligent as we all think he is , he's ignorant . That's so nice of you , ray .
Speaker 1So , oscar , but oftentimes when people are thinking of slavery , their minds automatically go to what we're most familiar with , and that's , of course , the Atlantic slave trade that spanned from the 16th and 19th century . So that's what they're , you know . They're thinking 12 years a slave . They're thinking Amistad . They're thinking which was reprehensible beyond description and the Bible . That's not what the Bible is talking about .
Speaker 4So important . So one I understand why some people think that the Bible might endorse slavery . You've got Ephesians , colossians , 1 Peter and a few other places where it talks about what it looks like to have a slave . Here's the problem . When you ask the question , does the Bible condone slavery ? You bring up a good point . The first question we have to ask is what do you mean by slavery ?
Speaker 4And so , yeah , our minds , as you pointed out , immediately go to race-based Chattel slavery , which is focused primarily on a person's race . It's demeaning , it's diminishing it's sin and ultimately , you own the soul , if the slavers even believe they had a soul . You own the person as property , but you have to consider what does the scriptures mean when it translates the word into slavery ? Sometimes they'll translate it into bond servant , and it's a very different . This is a great starting point , because it's very different than what we mean by slavery In the Old Testament and even in parts of the New . Here's what would happen with bond servants is that you would be a working man and you would get yourself in the debt let's call it bankruptcy and you were living in the harsh desert right when there was no , there was no public service to keep you alive , which meant you and your family were either going to starve to death in the desert or you can voluntarily , for a time , choose to put yourself into a bond servitude to somebody to pay off your debt . And so you had the option you can either starve to death or you can become a bond servant , and this is what's important . Those people had rights , and so here's a few rights .
Speaker 4Murray J Harris , in his book Slave of Christ , points out some of the rights that they had . Listen to how different this sounds than Chantel-based slave trade . You could bring lawsuits against your master for mistreatment . Your master owned your time and labor , but not your body . If they damaged even one tooth of your body , you can walk away freely . Immediately . Your master sorry . Israelite towns were commanded to free runaway slaves and then every seven years slaves were allowed to go free . But more importantly , I'm gonna read this quote from Murray J Harris's book because it's also important to recognize that there is a cultural distinction as well . So he says it like this In the first century , slaves were not distinguishable from free persons by race , speech or clothings .
Speaker 4They were sometimes more highly educated than their owners and held responsible professional positions . Some persons sold themselves into slavery for economic and social advantage . They could reasonably hope to be emancipated , be freed after 10 to 20 years of service or by their 30s at the latest . They were not denied the right for public assembly and were not socially segregated . They could accumulate savings and buy their freedom , and their natural inferiority was not assumed . Now , in no way does Murray J Harris endorse bondservanthood . It had problems of its own , but the point that you're making , ez , is where we need to start . Is we need to start by defining terms . When the Bible says slavery , does it mean the same thing we mean as slavery ? And the answer to that question is emphatically no .
Speaker 1That's good , oscar . Great summation . You know , ray , I think a good place to go is to the Word , to see what it says in this regard ? Yeah , it just came to me . All things considered , I thought hey , let's maybe go to the Bible , maybe go to the Bible . Oh , there's a new voice , it's just on the spot .
Speaker 2I actually like that voice . Yeah , maybe Bible . No , I repent . I love the different one .
Speaker 1Okay . So as it relates to what people are thinking in their minds about the whole chattel , slavery , exodus 21 , 16 , he who kidnaps a man and sells him , or if he is found in his hand , shall surely be put to death . And then this is reinforced by the New Testament , 1 Timothy 1 , 9-10 , where it gives that list of who the law is made for one of your favorites right . And it says in there and for fornicators , for sodomites , for kidnappers . That's the new King James .
Speaker 3King James translates that word as men stealers Sounds better than kid , or sounds like children having a snooze in the afternoon , right Kidnapper .
Speaker 1Kidnapper . And then , right , mark , the SV translates that as enslavers . So , ray , that makes it clear that when the Bible's talking about the whole bondservant realm , or as some would like to call it , slavery , it's not the American slave trade , where 10 million people were transported from the African regions over to the Americas , but it's talking about a different , which was also socio-economical , as Oscar pointed out .
Speaker 3Yeah , atheists also go to slaves that were taken in warfare , and that was different . There was a cruelty involved in that sense , in the same way that the British took slaves of the Germans during the Second World War . After the Second World War , they inscripted literally hundreds of thousands to come to England and build what they destroyed . They were slaves . Same with the United States . We took slaves during the war . Instead of killing Germans that were taken , that surrendered , they put them to work on the cotton fields . That's merciful . Instead of killing Germans would just shoot a whole lot of people they took , because who wants to feed them and clothe them ? Take care of them ? Just shoot them all , and so it's merciful to do that . Rather than kill your enemies , take them as slaves , and that's what happened in the Old Testament . It's history . We don't have to justify it .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , you know , for a moment here , I think it's appropriate for us to kind of camp out on this . You know , there's been a lot of wokeness , I think that's obviously . I woke up this morning , yeah , obviously , go back to bed , oscar , please . But that has a lot of wokeness in the church . That has taken the church in a wrong direction , but I think sometimes we're so . It's called the awokening , yeah , the awokening , the great awokening , but sometimes we're so reactionary that we'll go to the other extreme and pretend like this wasn't an atrocity in history .
Speaker 1And Mark , I think that there has been sometimes in the consciousness of people in generations past this idea that no , it is biblical . And this is a good example of how scripture is often twisted . And a lot of times people go back to the whole thing with Cain right , god put a mark upon him , and they take that and say , oh well , that was him , that was the black race , and so that's what happened there , that's Mormons . It's not to say that Mormons , yeah , mormons . I don't know even how they get around that from some of the things they've written in the past , but you know , but that's obviously not the case .
Let me read something I'd love for you to comment on this , but this is by Bodie Hodge and Paul .
Speaker 3Taylor from Answers in Genesis .
Speaker 1They said some white Christians have assumed that the so-called curse of Ham Genesis 9.25 , was to cause Ham's descendants to be black and be cursed . While it is likely that African peoples are descended from Ham , cush , put and Mizraim , it is not likely that they are descended from Canaan . The curse was actually declared on Canaan , not Ham . However , there's no evidence from Genesis that the curse has anything to do with skin color . Others have suggested that the mark of Cain in Genesis 4 was that he was turned dark-skinned . Again , there's no evidence of this in Scripture and in any case , cain's descendants were possibly wiped out in the flood . So , mark .
Speaker 2I just .
Speaker 1It's appropriate to have Mark . Yeah , the mark of Cain . But , mark , I think I'd love you to speak to this . This is a good example of how people who don't dive into the Word deeply and just take what they've heard about what the Word says , or just read some things at face value , how they can go astray .
Speaker 2Yeah , oftentimes when somebody raises an objection , I'll ask them have you ever studied what my answer is , what the Christian answer is ? Are you interested in knowing what I would have to say about that ? I'm curious . I mean , do you want to have a dialogue or do you want to have a monologue ? Are you looking for somebody ? Just kind of catch the vomit , that's being spewed out of your mouth .
Speaker 1I fancy bringing that up . Thanks for getting that off your chest .
Speaker 2There's a saying right that people claim to hunger and thirst for truth , but they sell them like the taste of it when it is served up . Are you interested in listening to what I would have to say about that ? Because there are answers and oftentimes when I'll talk to a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness and bring a rebuttal to something that they say and I'll give a solid answer to where they have no response back , I said listen , you would do yourself a disservice now to bring that up to somebody else when I just gave you an answer for that . Stop trying to have an aha moment for them and to be superior over them when I just gave you the answer for that . You need to now discard that argumentation . That's just how you have a normal dialogue . Yes , so oftentimes people will regurgitate something that they've read off of richarddawkinsnet or Sam Harris's website or something that they've read and said Skeptic Magazine , but they haven't thought through it .
Speaker 1Yeah , ray , that's actually a good point . You did a video with Bill Maher sitting down with Mike Tyson and I love the way you put it . Mike Tyson became like a little kitten next to Bill Maher . It's so silly . But you made some good points . Bill Maher was spewing all kinds of falsehood on that thing .
Speaker 3Mike Tyson should have bit his ear off . There's a lot of kinds of falsehood on that thing .
Speaker 1Mike Tyson should have bit his ear off A little flashback . Hey , get over here , you fiffy yeah it was pathetic .
Speaker 3He just backed down into the corner and went all sweaty and shaky . It was Bill Maher .
Speaker 1But Bill Maher was spewing a bunch of falsehoods .
Speaker 3I think that's where the spew stuff comes in . This is kick , vomit and spew . The other day it was passed out of the eye , yeah , anyway , yeah , Mike Tyson should have stood up to Bill Maher because he was speaking things that just weren't true . Yeah , the thing is Mike Tyson didn't know they weren't true . Because Mike Tyson says I've never read the Bible . Wait , wait wait .
Speaker 1What did he say ? Is he ?
Speaker 3Indian Mike Tyson said I've never read the Bible . I've never read the Bible .
Speaker 1That's the one accent I would have never thought you'd use , your Indian accent .
Speaker 2I've never read the Bible .
Speaker 4I will box you in the ring now I love what you said earlier , and it reminds me of another quote , which is that who are you talking about ? You , mark . And it reminds me of another quote , which is truth is like poetry and nobody likes poetry .
Speaker 4But , and it reminds me of another quote , which is truth is like poetry , and nobody likes poetry . But you know , let me touch real quick , because we talked about the mark , and then let me get back to slavery , specifically as it pertains to the Old Testament . First , yeah , I mean , there's different ways of interpreting the mark of the beast , but one way for certain Mark of Cain .
Speaker 3Mark of Cain , excuse me , Actually that's where I'm going , though , Mark of Cain . Mark of Cain , excuse me .
Speaker 4Actually , that's where I'm going , though . Yeah , because what you have is again what you see in Genesis is , you see these parallels Like the whole story in Genesis after the fall is that there's these two families , there's the descendants of the serpent , and then there's the descendants of Eve and the descendants of Eve . The promise is that a promised seed is gonna come through that descendancy and and the descendants of Eve . The promise is that a promised seed is going to come through that descendancy and crush the head of the serpent . And so right out of that proto-evangelion that moment in Genesis 3 , when we get the first gospel proto-evangelion it's the first time the Bible talks about the gospel . In the middle of the curse , he says someone will come to crush the head of the serpent Proto-Evangelion .
Speaker 4After that , you get Genesis 4 , the descendants of Cain , and the mark that they have is violence . Cain kills his brother Abel , and then , at the end of chapter three , you see his descendants . And what does Lamech say to his wives ? He brags Adah and Zalah , hear my voice , wives of Lamech , pay attention to my words , for I killed a man for wounding me , a young man for striking me . If Cain is to be avenged seven times over then for Lamech it will be 70 times seven . The mark of Cain is violence and power , and then , meanwhile , what we have on the other side is is those who are in Christ are marked by the blood of Christ . And what does Christ say ? To forgive 70 times seven . So what you see , these markers , is the disposition , the way in which we go about our lives . You've got Cain's way of violence and power and you've got the way of Christ through forgiveness and grace , through the blood of Jesus Christ , amen .
Speaker 1That's good , oscar , and I think again we're going to get back into the slavery issue . But this is obviously related and it's the race thing . Racism is so disgusting to me , so repulsive to the God who created every man , and the ignorance in that we all have the same parents . We all go back to Adam and Eve and then it starts again , of course . We all go back to Noah and his three sons . We're all related . And Taylor and Hodge went on to say they said , very light skin and very dark skin are actually the extremes of skin color caused by the minimum and maximum of melanin production and are more likely , therefore , to be the genetically selected results of populations moving away from each other after the Tower of Babel incident recorded in Genesis 11 . And I love what Ken Ham always says there's no such thing as black and white . We're all different shades of brown and and we're all related . But , mark , racism is so disgusting , isn't it ?
Speaker 2And ignorant , yeah and it's interesting during the time , just after the time of COVID with George Floyd , that the only person who can actually be racist would be somebody who is white colored in skin . And then you say , and there's all sorts of different things . Right , when you say inflation , it's because's all sorts of different things . Right , when you say inflation , it's because of racism of the white man . Right , car pricing going up , it's because of the white man . It's weird . You know the way this comes out . I read an article recently by Virgil Walker , a really great article I recommended to you . If you go to g3menorg , you know which is the website that we , the ministry that we really appreciate from our buddies Well , virgil Walker . He wrote an article called Paid in Full the Shocking Truth Behind Reparations , and I read it and I thought to myself , wow , that is so well written . I could write something like that , but it'd take me three days to write it .
Speaker 1And Virgil is a black man as well . No such thing Darker shade of brown .
Speaker 3What am I allowed to say ? Be careful , Spence . That's funny .
Speaker 2But it was just really great . And he goes through the whole history of reparations and slavery and how everything dealing with this is just wrong . We do need to be careful . There's a proper way to talk and there's an improper way to talk . If I was telling you a story and say , hey , I was at Dunkin' Donuts and the white guy in front of me ordered a maple bar , why did I say that ? I didn't need to say the white guy in front of me or the black guy in front of me ordered a maple bar . It has nothing to do with the story at hand . So we need to think through the logistical side of this . Does it have anything dealing with my story at hand ? The brown guy in front of me , the Lebanese man across the ?
Speaker 4table from me . Yeah , I was wondering why you put the two brown guys on the left , the two whiter guys on the right .
Speaker 1I just found out today that one of the VPs at the publisher that's publishing my book has a Lebanese grandfather . Oh , fight like a man . A bold , biblical battle plan for personal purity . The face Coming soon . You like the face , Oscar ? You can't do the voice without the face . Man . Come on , Okay . What would you do if you got stuck like that ?
Speaker 3The wind changed the wind changed .
Speaker 1Oscar , have you ever seen the book the Wind Changed ? No , oh , it's up upstairs . Oh , you got to show it to Oscar .
Speaker 3It's so good , it's really good , all right .
Speaker 1So let's get back to the slavery issue . So this is from Exodus 21 . If you buy a Hebrew servant , he is to serve you for six years , but in the seventh year he shall go free without paying anything . If he comes alone , he is to go free alone . But if he has a wife when he comes he is to go with him . If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters , the woman and her children should belong to her master and only the man shall go free . But if the servant declares I love my master , my wife and children do not want to go free , then his master must take him before the judges . He shall take him to the door of the post and pierce his ear with an awl . Then he will be his servant for life .
Speaker 1So I mean , people overlook the aspects that we see here . This is again like you talked about . There was a socioeconomical component to that . This was a person that was supposed to be set free , right . And then there was the voluntary decision to say look , you're so , and this speaks to the culture there . Right In terms of the other guidelines within the law of how you treat your servant . Right that there was a culture where they were often treated so well . They would want to remain because they were like a part of the family , you know . And so , ray , that's so important to remember , isn't it ?
Speaker 3Yes , and I want to bring up . The book is called when the when Changed .
Speaker 1Squirrel oh Ray , but show Oscar that picture by Ruth .
Speaker 3Park . Really , it's got no redeeming features at all . It's got no parabolic lesson to it . It's just a crazy , it's just a dumb book . Yeah .
Speaker 1All right , so let me again Hodge and Taylor . They said this is the first type of bankruptcy law I've encountered With this . A government doesn't step in , but a person who has lost themselves to debt can sell the only thing they have left their ability to perform labor . This is a loan . In six years , a loan is paid off and they are set free . Bond servants who did this made a wage , had their debt covered , had a home to stay in and on the job , training , and did it for only six years . This almost sounds better than college , which doesn't cover debt and you pay for it . This is not a forced agreement either . The bond servant entered into service on their own accord . In the same respect , a foreigner can also sell themselves into servitude . Although the rules are slightly different , it would still be by their own accord .
Speaker 3I think it's wonderful EZ , because nowadays in our country you can still get into debt as prison easy . Because nowadays in our country you can still get into debtors prison .
Speaker 1I studied it , you can be thrown in jail for getting into debt in the us . Yeah , you don't pay your taxes . Yep , oh the taxes , but really like a personal .
Speaker 3Yeah , if you get in trouble , that there's laws that can put you in jail .
Speaker 4Wow , I didn't know that yeah , wow , there you go um , yeah , good , no , go ahead , go ahead , I want to get back . No , no , go ahead I want to get back to sam harris's comment , because I've heard him say it multiple times . I've heard him say it multiple times and I've confessed on this podcast that I used to be a Sam Harris fan . I've told you , guys , I took a girl out on a date to go watch Sam Harris lecture at UCLA at one point . Which is like that , poor woman .
Speaker 1You mean Sam Harris , the non-dumb guy , something like that , just to make sure .
Speaker 4So
his comment . You know , if slavery seems like a big deal , why wouldn't Moses put it in the Ten Commandments ? If I was sitting across the table from Sam Harris not that I ever would be I would remind him of Harriet Tubman . Harriet Tubman was born into slavery . She escaped in 1849 . I think she went to Philadelphia at the time and then , after hearing about her nephews and cousins and the torturous treatment that they were experiencing it's a harrowing story she goes back and she rescues them , and then she doesn't stop there . By the time she died , at age 91 , she had rescued hundreds of slaves . And do you know what her nickname was amongst the slave community ? Moses ?
Speaker 3Oh really .
Speaker 4Why did they call her Moses ? Here's why Because before Moses wrote the Ten Commandments , he was the great emancipator . Moses is the one who freed the slaves . So we have to remember that the entire Bible , especially the Old Testament , is written by former slaves . As one person said , the Exodus was the defining moment in Israel's history , when God heard their cries and took down a superpower to get them out of slavery . The experience of being rescued from slavery would shape Israel's national identity and laws in ways that are impossible to overstate .
Speaker 4You mentioned Exodus 21 , which happens right after the Ten Commandments , where he says whoever steals a man and sells him shall be put to death . And then you go on and you just see the way it unfolds throughout redemptive history unfolds throughout redemptive history . The first sign that you might think like oh wow , here's God somehow advocating slavery . Abraham sleeps with a slave girl , hagar , and this is one of God's like main go-to guys . But that act was an act of disbelief and what does God do in the middle of that ? Hagar's the first person to give God a name and she is the one he says . He is the God who sees me , and God gives her promises . Similar to Abraham , this is a woman's slave God is reaching down to . And then you've got Joseph in Egypt being sold into slavery . It doesn't celebrate that . It says that what man meant for evil , I will work out for your good .
Speaker 4And then you think about the Philemon , which is a letter written to a slave owner from Paul . You might think , oh well , here's the smoking gun . Here's where the Bible endorses slavery . But hold on a second . Paul sends a runaway slave back to his master , but he tells him treat him as affectionately and relationally that you would a brother or a father . Treat him like you treat me , an apostle , someone you respect . Paul's basically laying the foundation for employee-employer relationship . In this . He is telling him , when he comes back , treat him with dignity and respect , moving that line from bond servant to employee-employer type relationship . And so what we see ultimately when we take a deep dive into God's word is we see God slowly moving us away from slave trade into a culture that we live in right now , where we take for granted the reality that we know that slavery is wrong . That comes from .
Speaker 1God's word , yeah , amen . Important to remember that , ray .
Speaker 3Also , the law is mentioned in the Ten Commandments . I mean slavery is mentioned in the Ten Commandments because Jesus said the essence of the law is to love God with heart , mind , soul and strength , and love your neighbor as yourself . And then 1 Timothy 1 , verses 8 through 10 , says we know that the law is good if it is used lawfully , knowing this , that the law is not made for a righteous man but for the lawless , the disobedient , the ungodly , and for sinners , for unholy and profane , for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers , for manslayers , for whoremongers , for them that defile themselves of mankind , for men-stealers , for liars , for perjured persons and if there be any thing , any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine .
Speaker 1So that brings in rape and all the other things they say are not in the Ten Commandments . That's so good , you know . Another point too . I think that's important to make as far as racism goes , because people will accuse the Bible of being a racist book , even by virtue of the fact that the Jews were called God's chosen people . But Mark all throughout the Old Testament , god reiterates time and again about how the Jews were to treat the stranger .
Speaker 1In fact they were told to love the stranger and to remember that you were once foreigners in Egypt . Old Testament , that's Old Testament .
Speaker 2Yeah , you know we forget the fact and we gloss over the idea . I mean the historicity side of it Oscar is touching upon here . But oftentimes when somebody was in the midst of slavery because of financial ills or whatever it may be , and it was their time to go , they would often stay . They would often just hang out and say , hey , you know what ? I have it better here under my master's leadership in allowing him to lead than it would be if I were to kind of go my way . We kind of forget about that . Right , there's a couple of different words used for slave that we see inside of the Bible , especially the New Testament . We have doulos or doulos which .
Speaker 2EZ has often called me over the years . That's your nickname , right for me , doulos you know a servant , you know one who would kind of follow . But there's also the word huperates , which is a great word . Have you ever seen the movie Ben-Hur ?
Speaker 1No , Ray hates .
Speaker 2Ben-Hur .
Speaker 3I saw it the other day .
Speaker 1No one of him .
Speaker 2There's an interesting scene where the slaves are down inside the gallows and they're rowing .
Speaker 2Battlespeed . And then you had a guy up at the front who would be kind of beating the drum , ringo Starr . Ringo Starr would be up at the front and he would be beating the drum and at his beat that would tell you how fast that they would row . But that word , as an under rower , is called huperates , one who's not seen and one who is serving . Well , in fact they were there . They exist to row and to serve .
Speaker 2We all , to some degree , are slaves . You're either a slave to sin , you're a slave to drugs , you're a slave to porn , you're a slave to pride , you're a slave to fill in the blank , anything other than Christ , or you're a slave to Christ . Amen . We are willful slaves to Christ because our master knows that which is best . To serve anyone inside the world is a mark of disgrace to some degree , but as a Christian , to serve Christ , there's not a higher calling than to walk in the steps that he has prepared beforehand , to serve him willfully and joyfully , knowing that he is at work in us both to will and to do for his good pleasure . And when we get to heaven , given us a crown , we give it right back to him , because all glory and all honor and all fame belongs to the King of kings and the Lord of lords , who it is our great desire and delight to serve as his slave .
Speaker 3Well , the whole thing about slavery , egypt being a type of the world . Satan's a slave , the ultimate slave driver . If God peradventure will give them repentance , the acknowledging of the truth , they might recover themselves out of the snare of the devil who has taken them captive to do his will . And Jesus said he that serves sin is a slave of sin . And it's so true . People think I can drink as much alcohol as I want and I become a slave to it . I can take any drug I want . I want the pleasure . Anger you become a slave to it . Pornography , as Mark said , you become a slave to it . All these things we think offer freedom offer bondage .
Speaker 1It's the subtlety that Satan has . Yeah , and whatever , as Scripture tells us , whatever you become obedient to , you become the slave of that very thing . If it's sin , you become a slave of sin .
Speaker 2yeah , I have a question for Sam Harris , who undoubtedly this audio probably sent to him . I'll text him right now . Hey , Sammy boy , If we are nothing but evolved pond scum , what is wrong with slavery ? Exactly ?
Speaker 1I was gonna bring that up too , Mark .
Speaker 2I can tell you , according to the Bible , why slavery is wrong . But why , according to your worldview , if we're just , happen-chance , goo right from goo to you by way of the zoo molecules in motion , what's wrong with slavery ? You can tell me why you don't like it , but you can't tell me objectively why it's wrong .
Speaker 3And survival of the fittest or the fattest .
Speaker 4I can tell you his answer yeah , because I've read , I think , all of his books Great , maybe not the most recent one . Maybe we could do role play . No , it's not a role play , because it's ridiculous .
He would say that where we get our moral cues from is that over time we discover what's good for the progress of society and that becomes our morality . Here's the problem with that answer is that when we emancipated slaves here through the Civil War , it was not good for society , it was bad . It was economically detrimental For America , it set us back a hundred years Economically , and so , by Sam Harris's standards , he would not have freed the slaves . Yeah , he would have said it's not good for us and even like , even if it's not what what's just ? He would have said it's not good for us and even if it's not , think about how low of a standard that is . So all I need to do is create a society in which I can prove that slavery is good for the next person and therefore slavery is fine .
Speaker 2Yeah . And why is the progress for society the aim goal for mankind ? Great question why yeah ? Who says yeah , exactly .
Speaker 1And on top of that , talking about what's good for society . What's good for society from the standpoint of an atheist who lives in a random chance universe ? What's good for society is survival of the fittest , and that means you kill anyone who's weaker than you . You use them for your own purposes and gain .
Speaker 3And that happens in nature with lions , antelopes .
Speaker 1Yeah , it makes no sense and they have no ground upon which to say this is wrong . Plus , we've talked about it before . There had to come a point where someone stood up and said slavery is not right . Yeah , William Wilberforce was a great example of this . According to the atheistic perspective , that person is wicked . That's right , because if it's society that decides at that very time , that's what it was , so there should be no one standing up . That's right , because it wasn't like progressive , it was instant they stood up . Hey , don't do this .
Speaker 2Yeah , no , social reformers should be treated as outcasts . William Wilberforce should not be heralded as a hero .
Speaker 4He should be one who should be deemed as a villain . He's a wicked man going against what society's determined is right , and , for that matter , it's also important to recognize that anybody who looks at who would assume oh well , doesn't the Bible endorse slavery . I want to say this gently and respectfully . I want you to realize that you are borrowing a moral and ethical standard and then trying attempting to use it against God . Tom Holland in his book Dominion he's not a Christian , he's agnostic , but he's a renowned historian . I've quoted him several times on this podcast , but I think he's important . He goes through history and he recognizes that we are all borrowing our ethics and our morality from Christianity , that we are all borrowing our ethics and our morality from Christianity , that if it wasn't for Christianity , your disposition against slavery simply wouldn't exist . That is given to you . You have inherited that by Christian history in Western civilization and now you're assuming that against God's word , the very word that told you that slavery was wrong . Wow , that's good .
Speaker 1Oscar . Yeah , and look like you mentioned earlier , oscar . Of course the Bible could have been more explicit in terms of talking about what we see as far as modern day slavery . We referenced a few things where it talks about kidnapping and that sort of type of chattel slavery . It could have been more explicit , but it's important for us to remember God's intent through the word and that he didn't address every societal issue or maybe political issues .
Speaker 1I love what Gott Question says in this regard . It says the seeds of the emancipation of slaves are in the Bible , which teaches that all men are created by God and made in his image , which condemns those who kidnap and sell a person and which shows that a slave can truly be a brother in the Lord . That's the Philemon issue . Some criticize the Bible because it did not demand an immediate overthrow of every ingrained centuries-old custom of the day . But , as Warren Worsby pointed out , the Lord chooses to change people in society gradually through the ministry of the Holy Spirit and the proclamation of the truth of the Word of God , and so we have to remember that .
Speaker 1There's so much more that we could say on this , of course , and go deeper into it . Of course there were the different forms of slavery . We looked closely at the one that dealt with Hebrew and between Hebrew and Hebrew there were the other kinds of the foreign nations and wartime and all that . And Hebrew there were the other kinds of the four nations and wartime and all that . But I think we've said enough to give the gist of what's ingrained in the Word and what the seeds are that are there to give us a clear picture .
Speaker 3Got questions are great , you know . I got questions called and did an interview with me and they had questions .
Speaker 1Did you got some , ray ? I got the answers for them . Yeah , that's great . Well , man , this has stirred me up personally and just reminded me again .
Speaker 1And , friends , we hope it reminded you of a couple things . First of all , that it reminded you that you have to plumb the depths of the Word , you have to look closely at it and not just go by . Oh , so-and-so said this , there's slavery in the Bible . Ah , you know , and scream and run . There are brethren who are of African origin , to try to be correct in all this , but no , seriously , black brothers and sisters who obviously are people of the Word of God , who know God's Word , who are leaders within the faith , and they understand all this and they see this , and so you have to go deep into the Word and what it teaches . And then , secondly , we hope , as exhorted us , that you recognize your call to be a bondservant of Jesus Christ . I mean that language is used . Paul used it , james used it .
Speaker 1Bondservant of Jesus Christ , that imagery of being a willful servant of the one who set you free and you gave you everlasting life . We are his . We're no longer our own . We've been bought with a price , and so we don't just want you to just have fun listening to this podcast . We want to challenge you to look into your life and to say am I a surrendered bondservant of Jesus ? Is every area of my life fully given over to Him ? And when I sin , do I repent and come back and say Lord , I'm yours , use me for your glory .
Speaker 1That's hugely important . So be encouraged , friends . All right , friends , don't forget . So many lions , so few Daniels living without compromise in a world of truth . Living Waters Mug , the Evidence Study Bible all at livingwaterscom . And guys , thank you . Thank you for listening , thank you for sharing and telling people about the podcast . Again , thousands of reviews , five stars , millions of downloads , one of the top podcasts in the world , and we're grateful to the Lord for doing that . We really still have no idea what we're doing , but God continues to work . So thank you for joining us . Friends , we'll see you here next time on the Living Waters Podcast , the one podcast you can't wait to turn off .
Speaker 3Click . I was going to do a click . I had to have a little click at the end . Yeah ,