I remember the story when I was at Bible college that there was a pastor that was standing there . The story was told that the pastor was standing there and there's two other pastors on either side of him and a congregant came up to the pastor that was inside the middle and he said you need to repent . And then that senior pastor got down on his knees and he lifted up his hands and he said you know , father , forgive me , have mercy on me , a sinner . And the congregant looked at him and said that's better . And he said you know , father , forgive me , have mercy on me , a sinner . And the congregant looked at him and said that's better . And he went away . And the other two pastors that are on the other side , they looked at each other just like what is that all about ? Well , the senior pastor got up when that congregant had left and he said how do I not know that he wasn't sent from the Lord ?
Speaker 2I dreamed a dream and time gone by .
Speaker 4We can restart this one .
Speaker 2When hope was high and life worth living Calgon , take me away , Look out . Susan , look out Susan Boyle . Here comes Emile Zwayne Boyle . Well , you know , guys , I had a daydream this morning of you three in braces , headgear and Coke bottle glasses . What I would give to see that Oscar in headgear . Mark , did you ever have headgear ?
Speaker 1No , but I am willing . Are you Willing ? And ?
Speaker 2able . I always felt bad for those poor kids . Ray , why do you look so ?
Speaker 3like Because he was in headgear for most of his no , no , I have godly discernment and I'm discerning . This isn't godly . But headgear I mean seriously do you know what headgear is ? Headgear is ? This is what they use in American football .
Speaker 2Do you know what headgear is ?
Speaker 3Yeah , it's to put gear on your head Leather From 1950 . I'm just going to say with oh , are you talking about those big ?
Speaker 2helmets they wear now . No , no , mark , you know what headgear is ? Yeah , of course .
Speaker 4I'm going to say with 40,000 listeners .
Speaker 1Someone's going to have headgear . That's true . Enlighten me . What's headgear ? It's like if you need help with your teeth and your jaw and you're just a big mess .
Speaker 2You've never seen the headgear right when it comes around and it's like this thing .
Speaker 3Oh , is that what it is ? We're talking dentistry , yeah , dentistry stuff oh yeah , what's that headgear ?
Speaker 4yeah thing .
Speaker 2Yeah , I've seen headgear . It just breaks your heart to see people that have to do that . But when you guys were kids , do you remember feeling like excited about getting braces or glasses or a cast on your arm ? Os , oscar , you probably broke your arm a few times .
Speaker 4I actually did not break a single bone in my body until I broke my sesamoid bone in my foot two years ago .
Speaker 2Seriously .
Speaker 4The first bone I ever broke .
Speaker 2Your sesami , bone Sesami .
Speaker 3I was playing rugby once and a guy who weighed Were you the ball . No , I got bullied because I was a little fella . Anyway , this guy fell down , twisted my wrist and he landed on my wrist and snapped two bones in my wrist .
Speaker 4All this while being the water boy .
Speaker 3No , I wasn't the water boy , I was actually playing . Anyway , the teacher said I sprained it , go and run water on it and I couldn't lift it the next day . I took great delight in showing up with the whole thing . I'd been to the hospital and they put it in a cast . I loved getting it . I loved having it broken up . That's what I'm talking about . I just loved it . Everyone paid attention to me , they signed it and it was great , I loved it .
Speaker 2So is that why , Ray , you always pretend to have major problems in life ?
Speaker 3Yeah , yeah actually the pain of broken bones . I couldn't believe how painful it was . Bones . I couldn't believe how painful it was . You know people that break their femur . I just had what was called two green sticks . You know what a green stick is . It's not a snap , it's just . When you break a green stick , it doesn't snap , it's a dry stick . That's what the bones were that broke . But it was incredibly painful . Just for a little kid I couldn't cry . It hurt so much the things kids do .
Speaker 2I remember as a kid , these kids in the neighborhood were , you know , and I don't know what they call it , but when someone takes you by the arms and then by the legs and they swing you , bullying , and they were doing that . So I thought , oh , do it to me . But they were throwing people on a mattress , so like swinging them and then throwing out , and they were landing on a mattress and they missed you . No , they did it to me . But I landed with my body on the mattress but my hand went on the ground , you know , like oh yeah , and it was like Did you break it ? They put me in a cast ? Probably no , not a cast .
Speaker 3They put you in a cast .
Speaker 2The whole body in a cast , Except my arm . They just put my whole body in a cast . You know , Arabs , they don't just whatever go over a plate , they just put a sling on or whatever With some mud .
Speaker 3Yeah , Pain is our best educator . As a kid you think you can crawl up , you know on six foot on a shelf and you fall off and you realize , hey , there's something around that causes pain .
Speaker 4I never learned that lesson . I never broke bones as a kid , but I dislocated things and had tons of stitches . I remember one time I was roughhousing with a cousin of mine and he he was a big fella . This to this day , he's like over 300 pounds , he's like an obese guy . But we were we were wrestling and he was on top of me and I was trying to pull him off and my uh , I can't remember what finger it was , but it got cut , caught in his belt loop , pulled it down , completely dislocated my finger and it was just sitting there dangling and I remember like looking at it and it was hurting so bad and they were like we got to go to your mom . I was probably in fifth grade . I was probably in fifth grade and I just remember thinking to myself don't go get my mom Cause I'm going to be in trouble . I was like , let me just deal with this , oh really . But I couldn't get it back and we ended up having to get my mom , it was pretty painful , it was bad .
Speaker 2Seriously , Mark , if I were like a legislator , if I was like a representative or a senator , I would fight to pass a law to make your pinky illegal . That thing is disgusting Listener .
Speaker 3Yeah , just describe us . Mark looks like a goose with a broken neck .
Speaker 4Listener for those of you who can't see , which you will be able to see one day , is on Living Waters TV , which is a streaming service . But for now , to help you understand , mark has a . What do you call that ? A demented ?
Speaker 3Something's not right .
Speaker 1I dislocated my pinky playing football and now it just doesn't want to close .
Speaker 2But , mark , you can almost bend it backwards as much as you can bend it forwards . That's wrong .
Speaker 3No , it's good in airports . He spends hours just bending it back and forth . I gotta let kids gather around .
Speaker 2Mark entertains himself .
Speaker 4It looks like a deflated balloon that you use to make animals .
Speaker 2I broke my knuckle once in a fight Is this gonna be a long story ?
Speaker 3I have a scar on my knee .
Speaker 2I walked on the moon ? No , I got in a fight , and it was . We went on a field trip . And then what was her name ? Some boy said , you want in a fight ? And uh , it was . We went on a field trip . And then what was her name ? Some boys , you want to get into that mark about you and women fighting . I don't think you want to , um , but we , uh , we , we got in a fight , mark you don't know what you're talking about he he was concussed , am I ?
Speaker 2talking about ufc . Yeah , mark , anyway we won't get , anyway . So , but no , this guy said . He said your mom wears army boots . I said your dad wears high heel pumps .
Speaker 3That's the way they insult . Is that an insult ? Your mom wears army boots .
Speaker 2That's not an insult . Yes , I said , your dad wears high heel pumps . So then we went out of the bus and something happened . But then , yeah , tell me , yeah , let's go . So the next day we went in the bathroom and it was freezing , it was like a winter's day and we were in the bathroom and we were going to fight and I would spaz , I would just fly , my fists would just fly like a fan . So , anyway , I beat him up . But then I went to the doctor for something else and they told me my knuckle was already healing . It had broken .
Speaker 3Couldn't you say they're nice army boots , they're ?
Speaker 2nice , I know , could have spared me a broken knuckle .
Speaker 1They're pink army boots , yeah .
Speaker 2All right , franz , another one of your cool , classy comments . This is from Caitlin Garcia . Hi , franz , my fiance and I have been following your ministry for over four years . Cameron , my fiance actually gave his life to the Lord through watching Hell's Best Kept Sec Secret . Oh , that's wonderful . We both love your podcast and talk about the episodes . Wow , ray , hell's Best Kept Secret . Go ahead . Preach it , go ahead .
In the late 70s , an itinerant ministry , I could actually , I think now .
Speaker 2I was listening to a part of it again the other day . It's been a while .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 1But yeah , I mean to think of the impact that sermon has had is just Phil Johnson said over at Grace to you that it's one of his top three messages that he's ever heard in his life .
Speaker 3That's wonderful .
Speaker 2Yeah , well , I'm really excited about the next season that's coming out for Way to Master Television . By the way , friends , check it out . We have a television program . We have our YouTube channel . We don't tell you much about those things on here , but you should check them out . But I'm really , really excited because we went to New Zealand , mark Oscar and I , and we went to the place where you got enlightened to the Most Busy Cup Secret message right , and where you used the law for the first time . We built a little altar .
Speaker 3The guy had left . That I witnessed .
Speaker 2Yeah , he was still there , ray , he was like he was the size of a raisin from sitting in the hot tub that long . But what a great message and yeah , thank you Very encouraging . On that note , friends , here's another radically revolutionary resource Hell's Best Kept Secret Book . There's also the audio and the video , but get the book . We still have the book right , written in a New Zealand accent . Yeah , whitaker House , ray , there must be hundreds of thousands of that book out there .
Speaker 3I just got to say God bless Whitaker House . I remember 90 publishers I sent proposals to about the book . You say 9-0? , 9-0 , yeah , and I only heard back from one . It was Whitaker House , and they said we'll publish this .
Speaker 2Aren't they glad ? Right Praise God . Alright friends , don't forget the Living Waters mug , the Evidence , Study Bible , all that . Living Waters , Alright friends . Today we are talking about how to grow .
Speaker 3Say grow , I was just thinking . Sometimes you sound like a parrot . I'm not being horrible , but your voice range just goes up high and then down low .
Speaker 2It's just quite amazing . You know what , Ray ? Honestly , that really hurts .
Speaker 3Finally on a cracker .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , honestly , that really hurts . Funny when they crack up how to grow in godly discernment , something which Ray , mark and Oscar have . None , we have nothing to add to this . We won't even have a show today . It'll just be me talking . Yeah , godly discernment Boy , if we had more of it around today . Well , if we had more of it around today . Well , if we had more of it around today , I would venture to say that we would have far less prominent false teachers .
Speaker 3That's true . You should have a look at the word dis and meant Dis with and earn Meant .
Speaker 4With so many inside of it . That meant something to you .
Speaker 2But yeah , no , I mean , if you think about it right , the reason why you have so many prominent false teachers is because these prominent false teachers have many followers who don't have discernment . Yeah , they keep their churches filled , they keep their coffers filled and they keep their egos boosted , and it's absolutely tragic .
Speaker 3all they need to have is their open , open bible on their lap as these preachers teach and they'd say this guy's not teaching the truth . But no , they don't .
Speaker 2Being a berean yeah right , being a berean and searching and seeing if what is said is true . Is it a green ? By what is taught and heard by many ? Because plenty distort and twist the scriptures to their own destruction . They don't follow my God's instruction , you guys like that no , but .
Speaker 4We've just got to play along . I think it'd be good to start with defining sort of giving a biblical .
Speaker 3That was actually quite easy . I liked it . Do it again then .
Speaker 2Easy he can . He made it up being a Berean and searching by what is taught and heard by many explaining the distort and twist of scriptures to their own destruction . They don't follow my God's instruction . That goes back to my Bible college days . Oh , you made it up . Then I had a book of acts class . That's where the whole acts thing comes from , remember , yes , yeah , so we did a project where we did a rap reggae song to the book of acts .
Speaker 2Didn't we meet the guy that you did that with ? Yeah , Didn't we meet the guy that you did that with ? Yeah , Mark Moore Christafari . He's got tens of millions of views on his channel . He was a first pioneer Christian reggae dude . Oh , I just envisioned all of you guys with dreadlocks .
Speaker 1Why are you looking at us all weird I almost had dreadlocks .
Speaker 3No , that's impossible right , I had hair on my shoulders , but it didn't dread .
Speaker 1Hair growing from your shoulders .
Speaker 4No , you bring your dread hair on your shoulders .
Speaker 2You have to turn 50 for that to happen . Wait , wait , can you do that ? If you're bald , go from your shoulder hair and turn it into a big comb over .
Speaker 1It's the ultimate , back over the shoulder comb over the shoulder , comb over Dot com .
Speaker 3Ray , you should patent that .
Speaker 4There's probably some listening out there that's crying now because they tried it and you're mocking them . That's all they got .
Speaking of discernment .
Speaker 4I think a biblical understanding of discernment would be helpful . Psalm 119 , verse 66 , the psalmist is praying for discernment and the word used in the original language is akin to the word taste Like give me a flavor and EZ's gonna love this . Here's what happens when you start drinking coffee black , oh no , when most people . Seriously , though , when I started drinking coffee black , I couldn't taste anything but black coffee . But they say and it's true that the more you know this with people who drink wine somebody can drink wine and be like , oh , I've got these flavors and that flavors To me . I just taste sour stuff . If I was ever going to drink wine which I do not like wine , but coffee is something very similar . When most people drink black coffee , they taste one thing they taste bitter , they taste dark . They taste bitter , they taste dark , they taste roast . But if you allow your palate to develop over time , you'll be able to taste acidity and sweetness . There's a lot of robust flavors that are discovered in wine . Sorry .
Speaker 3No , this is idolatry .
Speaker 4I'm sorry . And in coffee , no , it's very true . Listen , and in coffee you begin to understand those flavors , your flavor palette grows and in that same way . That's what Psalm 119 is talking about discernment . We need to be able to taste , to listen to a sermon and to break apart what is good and what is bad . We need to be able to use the scriptures to taste and see what's around us , to be able to discern what is helpful , what's redeemable , what's rejectable . We need to grow our God-given palates for righteousness in the Lord as we go about the world , so that we can taste and see and know what is good , beautiful and true in what is rejectable .
Speaker 2Yeah , that's really powerful , except for the coffee part . But here's what Philippians 1 , 9 to 10 says , and it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more with knowledge and all discernment , so that you may approve what is excellent and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ . And that word discernment , in some translations is translated as judgment , oscar , I really , really did love that . That's so good . Developing that sense of being able to detect , you know , is what you're getting at being able to detect so that you can filter out what is not right and good and correct and be able to detect that which is false . Here's a definition biblically of the word discernment it's aesthesis and it carries with it the idea of perception , not only by the senses but by the intellect , cognition , discernment , again , of moral discernment and ethical matters and basically being able to get a sense . Yeah , like you're talking about , for things .
Speaker 2And , mark , we have had a lot of opportunities to interface with young people , even through our church . We've spoken at their youth retreats , we've done conferences . Oscar , you've done some retreats for young people as well . Ray is a young person in body , high in size . Yeah , I can handle it . Yeah , but , but , mark that , that the importance of discernment for young people especially , obviously , all people . But but I do like to , from time to time , focus on young people especially , obviously , all people . But I do like to , from time to time , focus on young people because I feel like they have more of an opportunity to turn it around Older people , of course there's opportunity for repentance and change , but it's like the analogy of a sapling You're able to turn it , you're able to put those two sticks on the sides and straighten it out , but , man , it seems like it's diminishing more and more in our day .
Speaker 1Listen . There's many times I've told my kids listen . You don't understand perhaps the decisions that I'm making for you . Just trust the process , trust it . It's like a little child wanting to play with knives out on the freeway and she doesn't understand that she can't do that and the parent comes along and says get off the freeway . You know you're lacking the discernment . Just trust me in this If you can get a youngin to trust the process and to be a bit of a sponge you know we're always excited to come across somebody who's a sponge . That terminology we use is someone who just soaks in anything and everything you want to talk to them about , anything spiritual . It's going to save you years of heartache and just baggage right . Hebrews 5.14 says but solid food solid . I forget what Hebrews 5.14 says . What does that say ?
Speaker 3Oh , that's great . This takes me back to when I was pastoring . Thank you , mark , you're just wonderful . When I was pastoring many , many years ago pretty 40 years ago every week I had to give what was called the first principles teaching , where new people that had come into the church always small groups . I hated doing it , but we'd go through Hebrews 5 , verse 12 , 14 , and it was this .
Speaker 3For , though , by this time you ought to be teachers . You need someone to teach you again what's the first principles of the oracles of God , and you need to have milk , not milk , not solid food , whatever . I blew that , for everyone who partakes only in milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness , for he is but a babe , and this is what it says . But solid food belongs to those who are full of age , that is , those who , by reason of use , have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil . That's what godly discernment is Looking at something and saying that's evil , this is good , that's evil . And look at the tree of knowledge , tree of knowledge of good and evil . And I love those moral dilemmas where we're putting a moral dilemma . Do you remember the one about the guy who was a lever puller at a railway line and his son gets caught in the lever or something , and there's's a train coming , going to go over a cliff and he has to move the rails and pull the lever and kill his son . So what do you do ? Kill your son , and it's an analogy of the gospel of Christ
dying for our sins .
Speaker 3But this generation has no discernment of good and evil , absolutely none . They think it's good to kill a baby in the womb , they think sexual perversion is good and what they need is an absolute brought to their forehead , put right in front of them and say you've got an absolute that you have to face on Judgment Day , and you've got a conscience . And your conscience agrees with those commandments . I may have mentioned before how I like to challenge people that believe in evolution and say why did evolution give us a conscience that agrees perfectly with the commandments ? Wow , explain that to me . You shall not kill A conscience that agrees perfectly with the commandments . Wow , explain that to me . Yeah , you shall not kill , you shall not steal , you shall not commit adultery , you shall not use God's name in vain . You've got no idea how many people say I know it's wrong to use God's name in vain .
Speaker 2Wow .
Speaker 3Just straight off the blue , because that conscience , the work of the law written on their heart . So yeah , we need to have our senses exercised to discern both good and evil .
Speaker 2I like how you put that , ray . Yeah , it's an exercise and Oscar you spoke to that . Ray touched on that through the verse . You talked about kind of training , in a sense , your senses . But how do we get people to train their senses to discern ? Because , you know , it's almost kind of like a muscle , in that you can grow in discernment , you can be strengthened in discernment , and what are some of the ways you think people can do that ?
Speaker 4Yeah , that's a really good question Because , as we've said before in this podcast , we are in a time and an age , with the internet and smartphones in our pockets , where we are knowledge rich , yet wisdom poor . We have so much information at our hands and yet we lack wisdom and discernment . And , to your points , so many people , when they need discernment , when they need wisdom in their life , they turn to the internet of people . When they need discernment , when they need wisdom in their life , they turn to the internet . I remember talking to someone who was seeking counsel . Finally , and she confesses , for the last six months I was going to TikTok for legal counsel and we were like what , like TikTok for legal counsel ? So , to answer your question , I actually came up with a list One talk for legal counsel . Wow . So , to answer your question , I actually came up with a list One discernment starts with humility before the Lord . The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom .
Speaker 2And with wisdom comes discernment . You cannot grow in discernment if you do not have fear of the Lord . Okay , let's pause there for a second Oscar , because I'd like Mark to touch on this . So , the fear of the Lord . You use the word humility too , right I believe . Yeah , mark , speak to that , because pride is the biggest killer to growth and progress , isn't it ? When we are prideful and not willing to humble ourselves , to be challenged on the fact that we might be wrong ?
Speaker 1Yeah , look , thomas Adams . He said no man more truly loves God than he that is most fearful to offend him . If we could live our lives in such a way where , like I said , we're a sponge , we don't want to offend God , we want to walk with God in purity and humility . We want to walk with our fellow man in the same way . I have no idea what you asked .
Speaker 3Fear the Lord .
Speaker 2That was great bluffing Humility . I take a lesson from that . Let's see how humble Mark is now . But no humility being hugely important to help us grow in discernment , because if we don't have it then we won't correct course , because we're too prideful to admit we were wrong or to receive correction .
Speaker 1Yeah , and we try to take care of ourselves in means that perhaps we shouldn't , right . I mean , all the while you're saying , hey , you have egg on your face , I do not have egg on my face , and the whole time people are just seeing the egg on your face . It makes you look foolish . So be an open book , be in such a place where you can be receptive to no matter the person who brings correction and rebuke . I remember the story when I was at Bible college that there was a pastor that was standing there . The story was told that the pastor was standing there and there's two other pastors on either side of him and a congregant came up to the pastor that was inside the middle and he said you need to repent . And then that senior pastor got down on his knees and he lifted up his hands and he said you know , father , forgive me , have mercy on me , a sinner . And the congregant looked at him and said that's better . And he went away . And the other two pastors that are on the other side , they looked at each other just like what is that all about ?
Speaker 1Well , the senior pastor got up when that congregant had left and he said how do I , how do I not know that he wasn't sent from the Lord ? That's an act of humility , that's a humble individual who is not ready and willing to just claim their stake in life . And what are you talking about ? You don't know me and that's kind of our knee-jerk reaction when our eyes are not on the Lord . But , truth be told , we're all works in progress . It's like when somebody is going off on you , you should respond more with . You don't even know the half of it . I deserve much worse than what you're saying , right , because we all are little idle factories , as we've talked about , and we want to be thought well of and we will do whatever it takes to make people think well of us .
Speaker 1No , listen , be humble , be humble . That's where Christ was at . There was no doubt in the mind . I forget who it was . I think it was Thomas Pertel who said there was no doubt in the mind . I forget who it was . I think it was Thomas Purtell who said there was no doubt in the disciples' mind .
Speaker 1When the night before Jesus was betrayed and he got down on his knees and he's washing the disciples' feet , there was no doubt in the mind of the apostles who the real leader was , and yet he was serving . He was serving , yet they didn't have any unction to have any other thoughts . That is this truly a leader ? Why is he the one serving ? Well , no , if you're humble , man , you want to be friends with somebody who's humble . And if you're not humble , lord , I want to humble myself before you have to humble me . You know , scripture says humble yourself in the sight of the Lord . In due time he'll lift you up . You don't want the Lord to humble you . The Lord knows how to humble people . Humble yourself first , and if you don't humble yourself , the Lord will , because he wants you as a finished product who's without spot and wrinkle and decay and dandruff and disease .
Speaker 2Dandruff can't forget the dandruff .
Speaker 3Yeah , mark , that was so good .
Speaker 3Good and my heart breaks for the world that doesn't have a clue what you're talking about they are . They're stuck in their sense . They know no other way than to keep their pride . They don't know the , the power of humility and apology and and how it heals and holds a marriage together . Um , oscar , you were mentioning before about the fear of lord . I can't remember exactly what you were saying , but it was really good . Adam lacked the fear of God . That's what caused the fall . He just didn't fear God . I don't know why .
Speaker 3Isaiah 11 , verses 1 to 4 , a very familiar portion of Scripture , speaking of Jesus . Shall come forth a rod from the stem of Jesse , a branch shall grow out of his roots . The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him , the Spirit of wisdom and understanding , the Spirit of counsel and might and I just love the fact there's such a thing as the Spirit of wisdom . That means you can get a dollop from God . I just want the Spirit of wisdom to fall on me and the Spirit of counsel and might . And then it says the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the lord . This is speaking of jesus his delight is in the fear of the lord . Wow , and he was heard in that he feared , and it's something we must cultivate if we want that spirit of discernment ray , you've been stirred uh up on that lately .
Speaker 2You just did a video on verses dealing with the fear of the lord yes and just just the key in that . And you know , I think , in keeping with that again , humility is part and parcel with that . But I was just thinking of a young lady that we know who was caught up in false teaching and was following a certain false teacher . And then who was that ? And then someone showed her American Gospel .
Speaker 2Oh yes , in which you appear right . It's become a very , very influential and powerful movie that God has used . But I think there's that moment when you look at , maybe , how many years you've done something or all the things you have attached to that thing that you're a part of , and it takes that humility , when you combine it with discernment , to realize okay , now I see this is false . I have a choice to make , but a lot of times people will not make that choice because it's too costly . That's why I think it's so key . Also , you said discernment's connected to the fear of the Lord , because if you truly fear God and you've received that enlightenment , no matter what it costs you , you're gonna make that break . You're gonna make that change .
Speaker 3And it's for your own good .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 4So next , oscar , go ahead . Yeah , and on that , it's also important in regards to habits of discernment . Let's call this so humility before the Lord , fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom . Knowing that you're going to have blind spots , knowing that you're gonna have blind spots . This is so important because often we can say , well , like , I'm confident that I don't want to be this way , but that doesn't mean that you don't have blind spots .
Speaker 4And here's the thing is that the Lord does not design us to live autonomous lives . You were not meant to grow in your faith sitting behind a computer or an iPhone on your couch in your room , outside of the context of local community , church community , with people who both know you and love you , and people who you have invited into your life to help you identify your own blind spots . You simply were not meant to be alone . The scriptures tell us that we are part of one body , that we each play a part . So think about that . If you are trying to grow in discernment and wisdom and you're alone , man , not only are you depriving yourself of the body of Christ , but you're also depriving the body of Christ from the part that you have to play within it . Wow . The Lord has called you to be a part of a body so that you can see each other's cultural blind spots .
Speaker 4And that leads to the second , third one , which is invest in relationships . We should be able to have relationships with people who we invite into our lives even when they start speaking , like you kind of alluded to this man . Instead of allowing the inner lawyer to go to work right away when someone's trying to show you a blind spot , we should start with what aspect are they saying that is true ? Don't start with what they're saying you disagree with . Start with the areas that they're talking about that you think might be true . That's humility To listen to someone going . Let me find if there's truth in here before I address what I think is untrue .
Speaker 1Well , you know , there's a saying out there ask somebody who knows you well if they think you're humble . You have nothing to lose but your pride .
Speaker 2That's so good . I love that . Oh , it's so good , yeah , and Mark , you know Oscar alluded to yeah , community and having people speak into your life , and I love how you're always mentioning things others have told you . You know , you just mentioned our friend Thomas Purtell . Last night you were speaking at a church . You mentioned something our friend Dennis . Eastman said to you the value of having voices in your life .
Speaker 1that's going to sharpen your discernment . Yeah , you don't know what you don't know , right . So you want to surround yourself with the wisest people you know , and I got stuck with you guys and I'm going to work with what I got . You know for sure . But if you can have people inside your life who have permission to speak into your life and to say whatever they think is right , you have the ultimate final say in what you're going to say and how you're going to change and what decisions you're going to make . But people being able to speak inside your life is what you need . If nobody is speaking inside your life , I can guarantee you you're not a humble person . You're not a meek person . You're a lot like a novice who's trying to approach the word of God and teach it from the pulpit in front of thousands .
Speaker 4You
need to beware and be careful . Can you imagine David's life without Nathaniel ? Yeah , you know he needed someone to speak truth into his life . He needed somebody with wisdom and discernment to come to him about his sin and look at what God did through that .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean Nathan , just boom . You are the man and he needed that .
Speaker 3Do you think he would have pointed at him ? Yeah , he's got to .
Speaker 2You . He's got to point him and say Can you imagine his arms folded ? You are the man . You , you Lied , you lied , all right .
Speaker 2Well , I love the commentary here from crosswayorg on that verse . I read Philippians 1 , 9 to 10 , just that our love may abound more and more with knowledge and all discernment Prove the things that are excellent , and so forth . It says the first petition in Paul's prayer is that God would cause the cardinal Christian virtue of love to abound more and more and that it would be accompanied by knowledge and all discernment , so that the Philippians' love would find expression and wise actions that would truly benefit others and glorify God . I love that . It's like look , the love that we're to have for each other as Christians should be connected to discernment , so that we know how , how we can truly , in truth , right , best , serve and bless others and in turn glorify God . As Christians grow in their understanding of what it means to follow Jesus , they will increasingly be able to affirm and practice what is excellent . Such joyful obedience to God will give them the confidence of being found pure and blameless when Jesus returns .
Speaker 2I love how this puts it , because it has ultimate expression . It's not just be a discerning person . Now you can boast and brag . I can discern . No , it's you discern so that you can love , you can serve , you can obey God , you can be found pure and blameless when Jesus returns . It's so key and it's so foundational . I think , ray , honestly , discernment can be and we talked about it earlier in the podcast but it can be applied to what you experienced when you came to realize that your approach to evangelism was wrong . And a lot of people don't realize this . I mean , a lot of times people think you kind of were born out of the womb , preaching Elspeth's kept secret and using the law and evangelism . But speak to that a little bit . I think it's good for our audience to know that wasn't always the case with you .
Speaker 3Well , I'm ashamed of what I used to preach for 10 years . I would preach the same message that you've got a God-shaped vacuum in your heart only God can fill . And let me just share the reason I so twisted the motive for people to come to Christ was because of my surfing days . I don't know if you've ever heard this , but the ultimate in surfing is you drop down the bottom of a wave . You turn up and the lip comes over you and it's an incredible feeling . It's why I used to surf . It's just the ultimate surfing . You see guys at Pipeline get covered with a wave and they raise their hands at the glory of it In an adrenaline rush . They often collapse at the knees because it's such an incredible adrenaline rush .
Speaker 3That feeling of joy was why I used to surf . It was just unspeakable . The night I became a Christian I got exactly the same feeling . I could not believe the feeling I got when Jesus Christ made me whole and I didn't have to dangle my feet as shark bait or travel hundreds of miles or go on a cold water to get it . I had instant feeling of completeness and joy , unspeakable . I just couldn't describe it . And I remember going to sleep that night at 3am , 3.30am , after I came to Christ just praying oh don't let this be gone in the morning , don't let it be gone in the morning . So I had a surf shop and this is how I used to witness to people . I'm not kidding , I'd say I found something that's better than surfing and I was incredibly sincere about it because I had .
Speaker 3And so I had this little four spiritual laws booklet that I would say one , two , three , four . No mention of hell , no mention of judgment day , no mention of the law , no mention of nothing really . And it was just try Jesus and he'll give you a wonderful plan . And I prayed with that many people on that basis that they'd find something better than surfing , and all they found was tribulation , temptation and persecution . The four spiritual flaws .
Speaker 3Yeah , and Bill Bright actually repented of that and my editor of the Evidence Bible worked on that particular tract and she says she works for us out of penance . Penance she felt so guilty about that because it left out so many important aspects . But yeah , I used to preach for 10 years Jesus Christ , give you peace , love , joy and fulfillment . That was my little line . Just give Jesus a try . And I'd even had a huge painting put on the side of my business try Jesus , like you've tried drugs , you've tried alcohol , tried sex , try Jesus . And it was just such a silly gospel message that didn't do anything when it came to the reality of someone's conversion , until I understood biblical evangelism .
Speaker 3But let me just digress a little bit to what we'll go back to what we're talking about . Discernment is a knowledge , or having the ability to discern good and evil . Isaiah 7 says of Jesus , curds and honey shall he eat that he may know to refuse the evil and choose the good . That's what the Messiah instantly knew to refuse the evil . Before we came to Christ , we embraced evil . We had no idea what evil did . We embraced the serpent . We cuddled up to the cobra . We served sin , not aware of its wages that it paid in death , ignorant of what its wages were .
Speaker 3And I see , if I can put this and make it sound right we as Christians stay away from sin , not because we don't desire it . We stay away from it because it's deadly , because of the wages it pays . There's nothing in me that's good . I've got a heart that's deceitfully working . Without the grace of God I'd just be like a moth to the flame of sin . I couldn't hold back , and so , in one sense , coming to Christ is a calculated decision for your own good . Jesus in Luke 14 says which of you intending to build a tower does not sit down first and count the cost , whether he has enough to finish , at least after he has laid the foundation ? He's not able to finish and all who see begin to mock him and say that man began to build and was not able to finish . So becoming a Christian is absolute common sense . God puts before you a way of life and a way of death . Heaven or hell . Choose heaven , choose life , because it's a common sense decision .
Speaker 2Oh good Ray . I think maybe a little clarification would be good . I'm sure some will be tempted to write to us . You said Bill Bright repented of that , can you ?
Speaker 3just elaborate on that a bit . Yes , Kirk and I had breakfast with Bill Bright way back in 2007 , I think it was , and he actually had a book that he put out saying he really blew it with the four spiritual laws and it was a book called the Ten Commandments . He wrote on the importance of using the commandments and he said that he had failed and I think we've got the quote in the book God has a wonderful plan for your life and the foreword is done by Bill Bright's top man for that book , just saying how important the truths are that I expound in that book . So love Bill Bright and he just felt terrible that he had diluted the gospel and it lost its power .
Speaker 2Yeah , and that's that humility we're talking about . You know , bill Bright was a very godly man , like Ray said , that we respect and honor and had a massive impact . But yeah , there comes times in our lives when we have to look and say , hey , you know what ? Yeah , I discern now that this was not right .
Speaker 3Can I just say something ? What he did was what I did . It seemed right what I was doing . And it's like a doctor who waters down medicine to make it palatable because it's got a bitter taste . But when you water down medicine it loses its curative properties , and that's what's happened with the gospel , the gospel proclamation
.
Speaker 3Over the last hundred years We've failed to talk about sin , righteousness , judgment . The law has become a dirty word and yet it's so pivotal . If you read the book of Romans , it talks about Paul said I had not known sin , but by the law . And there's another thing out there called the Romans Road that a lot of Christians embrace and say it's a good way to bring people to Christ . No , it's not . It's all about the book of Romans , which is about the law and its function , but it doesn't even mention the law in its presentation . And so the Romans Road has taken the stones of the law out and all is a soggy , muddy mess and it's not going to go anywhere . So it's so important to evangelize the way Jesus did and the way Paul did , and to understand that law is good if it's used lawfully for the purpose for which it was designed to bring the knowledge of sin .
Speaker 2Yeah , oh , that's good , Ray . Mark Romans 12.2, . Do not be conformed to this world , but be transformed by the renewal of your mind that by testing you may discern what is the will of God , what is good and acceptable and perfect .
Speaker 1Yeah , meditate on God's word day and night . Psalm 1 makes it very clear . You'll be like a tree , firmly planted by the rivers of water . You'll bring forth fruit and season . Your leaf won't wither . Whatever you do will prosper .
Speaker 1Now here's the thing . People come along and they say well , I read , but I can't remember or I'm not getting anything . I'm not getting much out of it . Listen , you're getting a lot more out of the word of God than you are when you're watching some television show . Grab a hold of like one of those colanders , if you will those strainers . Go down by a river . Grab a hold of some mud , put it inside there . Put the water inside of it . Now , listen , that colander cannot hold any water . There's holes in it . Dl Moody said fill me with your spirit , lord , for I leak . So you may not be able to hold or retain or attain or be able to regurgitate the things , but listen , you're getting clean . Every time you open up the word of God , you're being washed . You may not be able to remember all that's coming in , just like that . That spaghetti strainer is not be able to hold the water , but it's clean . Approach God's word much in the same way , because it washes us and it cleanses us so good .
Speaker 4You know what we ? We often approach God's word like it's an ATM machine . We want something from it right away . And this is how we treat all content in our lives . Now , when we go to Instagram , tiktok , facebook X , whatever it is , we treat it like an ATM machine . Give me my serotonin kick , give me that bump right now . I want that right now .
Speaker 4But we cannot treat God's word like an ATM machine . Give me something right now . We need to treat it like an investment account . When we read God's word , we're investing , we're meditating on his word . It's going into our lives and , when ready , when you come to moments that require discernment , that require wisdom , when you come to moments of trial and temptation , you're going to have a foundation , something that you invested in the truths of God's word that you're going have a foundation , something that you invested in the truths of God's word that you're gonna be able to tap into for those seasons , in those moments . And so , instead of like , give me something right now , we need to look at God's word as an investment account to our lives .
Speaker 2Yeah , and it's good . And I think a big problem is that oftentimes , when we're trying to seek out God's will for our lives , it's often in ways that are not God's priority for us . In seeking His will , I love it wherever scripture clearly tells us and this is the will of God , like it talks about . You know , in terms of your sexual purity . You know that's one area , as an example , where you could say , okay , I know it's God's will . You know my sanctification . It says right and to walk in sexual purity .
Speaker 2But in this verse , in Romans 12 too , I mean , he says don't be conformed to this world . Be transformed by the renewal of your mind . And the Lord uses our mind in that regard and we fill our mind with God's word , like you guys are saying that by testing you may discern what is the will of God , what is good and acceptable and perfect . And so when you grow in the understanding of the word , you start knowing it's God's will that I not lie . It's God's will that I not get into a relationship with an unbeliever and be unequally yoked . It's God's will that I pay my taxes . Ooh , wow , there's a shock there , but that's what scripture says to render taxes to whom taxes are due . You start understanding God's will by understanding his word .
Speaker 3Have you tried paying taxes joyfully ? Have you ever done that ?
Speaker 2It's very difficult .
Speaker 3I've been trying that lately .
Speaker 2Yeah , well , one time I heard I had a bigger tax bill than I expected . Voice crack Expected but no . I remember getting in my car after leaving my accountant's office and I just began to praise the Lord and I said , lord , you're faithful and you know what he provided he worked it out .
Speaker 1It's none of my business . What I Lord . If you want the money to go towards a homeless shelter or go towards Uncle Sam , whatever you want to do , it's your money anyways .
Speaker 2So obviously .
Speaker 2I'd like it to go over towards this way . But do you want to head that way ? None of my business . A lot of reasons to praise living in California . I've got taxes everywhere .
Speaker 2Let me wrap up with this quote by Kenneth Boah , and he's referring to wisdom here , and wisdom is part and parcel with discernment . Obviously they're connected , but he says , not all leaders think about wisdom as a character trait that needs to be carefully cultivated . Of course , we would quickly agree that wisdom is more valuable than money or status . At least we would agree with that statement intellectually . But how many of us pursue wisdom with the same vigor with which we pursue wealth ? How many of us cultivate wisdom with the same passion we use to cultivate our stock portfolio ? Somehow we believe that wisdom just comes by itself . Certainly , wisdom can and often is the end result of long experience in the leader's field of expertise . But the leader who gains wisdom by making poor decisions and learning from them is much farther behind than the leader who seeks the right kind of wisdom from the start .
Speaker 2And friends , we are all leaders in different realms , whether we're parents or we're fathers , or we're leading small groups , or we're pastors or whatever . All of us have influence in leadership and I love that encouragement . Let's avoid folly and harm by seeking the right wisdom and discernment from the outset . And we've talked about it before One of the best ways is to learn from the mistakes of others and to look and say , okay , that's where they went wrong . I'm not doing that . Oh , this guy was a great pastor and he had a great church , but he neglected his family , he neglected accountability , he neglected the nurture of the inner life and integrity , so he fell sexually . These are his mistakes One , two , three . I'm avoiding those . Right , that's growing a discernment . That's good .
Speaker 2So well , friends , we hope you've been stirred and encouraged . We're glad you've discerned that this is a podcast hopefully worth listening to . Don't forget Hell's Best Kept Secret , the book , but you could also watch the video on our YouTube channel and on livingwaterscom . Don't forget the audio as well . That's a classic , an old term in Bahrain , but it's still a good one . Don't forget to chug from the Living Waters bug and to study from the evidence study Bible , all at livingwaterscom . And please , friends , hey , the podcast continues to hit like top ranks around the world . Still one of the top podcasts on the planet and still five-star ranking . Thank you , friends . Thousands of reviews and you've kept us up there , not for our sakes , we don't care . We just want people to be reached with truth . So write to us podcastlivingwaterscom like , subscribe , tell others about it . Thank you for joining us , friends . We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters Podcast , the one podcast , especially today , that you can't wait to turn off .