Comparing Perfectionism and Personal Hygiene

Oscar Navarro 1:04

But today a young woman goes on social media and they see the air quote perfected self . They see the perfect image with the perfect angle , the perfect filter . That's sometimes airbrushed and sometimes not even real and they compare themselves to a perception of perfection . They look themselves in the mirror and they see man , I've got these freckles , my eyes are this , my face is that . And ultimately , here's the worst part when we get sucked into that kind of version of perfectionism , is that we miss out on the reality that God is the one that made you , he gave you those freckles , he gave you your beauty . And that's the saddest part is that when we compare ourselves in that kind of a way , ultimately we're questioning God's workmanship , that he made us to be something he desires us to be , and we're comparing that to a facade , a fake image of perfectionism .

Emeal Zwayne 2:13

Shucks , my fingers hurt . Okay , first of all , I do want to ask this Shucks Oscar , look it up , or Mark , look it up ? What does shucks mean ? Is that the proper context for ?

Ray Comfort 2:26

such a thing . Think it's probably short for a foul letter .

Mark Spence 2:29

Yeah word like the euphism for something that probably you wouldn't mean .

Emeal Zwayne 2:32

No yeah , southerners say it all the time oh sure , well , they shouldn't .

Ray Comfort 2:36

Oh , shucks , we're gonna change it . Oh , thinking of going . Yeah , no , you don't want to say that word . No , I wouldn't want to stop yeah , um yeah , shucks .

Emeal Zwayne 2:45

so I don't know if that's even the right context for shucks , but I hear it said all the time . But guys , my fingers hurt why buddy . Well , you know , you do something like you get a little thingy , one of those like loose nail things . Oh , that's perfectionism .

Ray Comfort 2:57

You just keep picking at it because you don't like it . No , but what I eventually do ?

Emeal Zwayne 3:01

is . I bite it and pull it out with my teeth , and then it just hurts for like days .

Ray Comfort 3:06

Do you know what that's called Shucks ? No Stupidity .

Emeal Zwayne 3:11

Ignorance and stupidity . Don't bite it and pull it . Yeah , and I do need to stop , but I can't help it . Why ? Because I'm a perfectionist , ray , I need perfect nails . Yeah , we'll be talking about that Speaking of uncontrollable idiocies .

Ray Comfort 3:25

Do you ever get something in your tooth and you're saying I don't want to play with my tongue anymore , just leave it alone .

Emeal Zwayne 3:31

It keeps going back you know the worst for me with stuff in my teeth Mango .

Ray Comfort 3:36

Really you don't like mango .

Emeal Zwayne 3:38

Mango what ? Or you just don't like the stringy mango stuff . I love mango , but it gets stuck in my teeth and I find myself just picking at it .

Ray Comfort 3:45

Yeah , I see you take them out and just pick at them .

Emeal Zwayne 3:48

Mark , you're a fastidious brusher , Thank you . And flosser Like after every meal kind of thing .

Mark Spence 3:56

No , I mean , I floss a couple times a day , but hygiene is important .

Oscar Navarro 4:01

I floss after every meal .

Mark Spence 4:02

Yeah , I floss too . I definitely floss after every meal .

Oscar Navarro 4:05

Stop you do Oscar , absolutely . I can't stand having stuff stuck in my teeth . Yeah , where do you floss ?

Emeal Zwayne 4:10

In his teeth , in my teeth Are there other options ?

Oscar Navarro 4:15

Yeah , I didn't know there was other options .

Emeal Zwayne 4:16

Have I been doing it wrong ? Floss your ears , Oscar . Oh , I see that . You see what they do .

Ray Comfort 4:20

Oh , yeah , mental floss , mental floss thing , and your rope goes each yeah I think it's somewhere going through your ears mental floss .

Emeal Zwayne 4:28

Yeah yeah . It's crazy , man . Seriously , have you guys ever like had a dentist that had bad teeth ? I've seen dentists with bad teeth .

Ray Comfort 4:38

I'm like what are you doing ? Why on earth would you go to a dentist with bad teeth ? It's like a mechanic that's got a destroyed car ?

Emeal Zwayne 4:45

no , you have that . I remember that back in the day around my house there was this sign shop that made signs and they had the most dilapidated , like ugliest signs .

Ray Comfort 4:55

It's like going to a brain surgeon that destroys things all the time . I'd like to be a brain surgeon . Or who has no ?

Oscar Navarro 5:00

brain . What's that phrase ? The cog maker has no shoes or something like that .

Emeal Zwayne 5:05

Oh yeah , yeah , Ray , why ?

Ray Comfort 5:09

You has no shoes or something like that . Oh yeah , yeah , Ray , why Are you going to finish the ?

Emeal Zwayne 5:11

sentence . I can't remember what I was going to ask you .

Oscar Navarro 5:13

That's not perfectionism I had something very important to ask you .

Ray Comfort 5:16

So this is on perfectionism . Today , and you're a perfectionist , I can't even remember now .

Emeal Zwayne 5:20

Yeah , my brain's gone . Ingrown toenails yeah , I think that's what Yummy .

Ray Comfort 5:30

Sorry if you guys ever had an ingrown toenail please remove your kids from the program .

Emeal Zwayne 5:32

Have you , oscar ? You're nodding your head .

Oscar Navarro 5:33

They're horrible . I had to get it removed surgically . They pulled my entire toenail off don't ?

Ray Comfort 5:42

you just show us , keep them trim . They don't ingrow if you trim them , they just grow too long .

Oscar Navarro 5:48

I broke the bed of my toe playing soccer and so it grew like a A-frame house type thing . It's sort of growing sideways and so , yeah , they had to remove it and reshape the bed . I don't know if they reshaped it . It grows out fine now , but this is really personal information .

Ray Comfort 6:06

It's called bed .

Emeal Zwayne 6:13

Is that what it's called bed ? Is that what it's called ?

Ray Comfort 6:14

the flat part of your tongue . Underneath your toenails , the is the bed of your toe toenail ray . How do you , how do you feel about ken ham's toes ? Right ? Don't even talk about it . No , don't even talk about it , it's just terrible . Change the subject yeah , ken's ham's toes . They are despicable . Just leave it at that about .

Emeal Zwayne 6:28

So , anyway , crazy things ingrown toenails , ingrown hairs . Why are we talking about this ?

Oscar Navarro 6:34

I have no idea . It's fun . I'm trying to think how you're going to connect all of this . This is not fun .

Emeal Zwayne 6:38

There is no connection today .

Ray Comfort 6:41

All right friends .

Emeal Zwayne 6:42

We started with shucks . Let's move on from that Cool , classy comment . This is , by the way , from podcastatlivingwaterscom .

Mark Spence 6:51

Wait a minute .

Emeal Zwayne 6:52

That's us .

Mark Spence 6:53

You said that very well , did you like that ? It was clear , it was articulate .

Emeal Zwayne 6:59

People followed it . See , I should talk about ingrown toenails more . It'll normalize me . I stumbled on this podcast by Spotify's suggestion and was hooked . Isn't that cool . They give suggestions . Man algorithms do have a place After I got used to Easy's voice how did you ? Do that . I started liking it even more Now . I think the podcast would lose a lot without his voice . Thank you , thank you .

Ray Comfort 7:26

It would lose everything . Seriously , it takes time , easy , you are the podcast .

Emeal Zwayne 7:30

Yeah , I love the wisdom and discussion that you guys bring . I appreciate how you all have differing opinions on some areas but still forever get along most of the time .

Ray Comfort 7:40

Most of the time .

Emeal Zwayne 7:42

I like Ray's humility and how he doesn't get offended when made fun of by the others . You're so humble , ray . Easy's voice and laughter always make me join in or cringe . I love Mark's dad jokes and Oscar's enthusiasm . Most of all , though , I love the way you guys stand on God's word . Keep doing that . The Lord , jesus Christ , be with your spirits . Amen . Shane Snader from Saldontna , alaska .

Ray Comfort 8:12

Alaska .

Emeal Zwayne 8:13

Remember Alaska right .

Ray Comfort 8:14

Remember Alaska right yeah they've got nice pets up there , yeah , here .

Emeal Zwayne 8:17

Moosey , Moosey , Moosey .

Oscar Navarro 8:20

Is that where that happened at ?

Emeal Zwayne 8:21

Yeah , yeah . We walked out of a restaurant and there was a moose in the parking lot . You exaggerate .

Ray Comfort 8:28

It was at least 20 feet away more like three ray .

Emeal Zwayne 8:33

You're crazy . Why would you go up to a moose ?

Ray Comfort 8:36

it looked nice . They have moose for here . Hello , aren't they violent ? Oh the one they will kill you yeah , if they think it's worth it , yeah , yeah .

Emeal Zwayne 8:47

I'd ignore Dre .

Ray Comfort 8:49

He's not worth killing .

Emeal Zwayne 8:52

He looks dead already . Alright , friends , anyway , thank you , shane . It means so much to us . Thanks for listening , brother . Tell others about the podcast , please . Thank you , shane . Don't tell them what to do For another radically revolutionary resource . This podcast is brought to you by how to Bring your Children to Christ and Keep them there , avoiding the Tragedy of False Conversion Ray . Your kids came to Christ and they're still there .

Ray Comfort 9:21

Yeah , and they work for a ministry or two of them do , two-thirds do , and we almost got the other third . She wants to look after the last kid at home and make sure she's .

Emeal Zwayne 9:30

Got to bring Rachel over here ? Yeah , wouldn't it be good Minister to those ladies .

Mark Spence 9:34

On that note .

Emeal Zwayne 9:34

Don't forget , ladies , joyful mothers . That's Rachel's page . I think it'll really bless you . Yeah , so it's a good book , ray .

Perfectionism and Negligence

Emeal Zwayne 9:43

When did you write that book ? When did you write that book ? It's been a while . You're asking , ray , I know as soon as it left my lips .

Oscar Navarro 9:52

I was just thinking I'm going to take one of his books , like a manuscript of one of his books , and write my name on it and hand it to him and say what do ?

Ray Comfort 9:55

you think , and he's going to come back like that's the best . Yeah , he would . Guys , Mark is looking at people being attacked by mooses .

Emeal Zwayne 10:04

Moose-eye , moose-eye .

Ray Comfort 10:06

Meese , meese . It's being attacked by meese . There's a lot of meese attacking people Meese .

Emeal Zwayne 10:11

There it is again . The idiocy of the English language sometimes right that things aren't consistent . Yeah , anyway , good ones , mark there .

Mark Spence 10:19

Yeah , we saw a lot of mooses . He was touching the tail of the moose and the moose said I didn't that , you will be my meal . They are huge they are seriously big man .

Emeal Zwayne 10:29

It's like eye level with a person like a tall man .

Oscar Navarro 10:32

Unless you're Ray Not with Ray . Unless you're Ray .

Emeal Zwayne 10:35

Over Ray , all right friends , yeah . So don't forget that book and don't forget to chug from the Living Waters mug and don't forget to have a study Bible where it will bring revival , all at livingwaterscom .

Ray Comfort 10:50

You sound like one of those chanting monks , then Chanting monks .

Emeal Zwayne 10:55

Oh boy , all right friends , today we are talking about perfectionism and negligence , how to avoid the two extremes . You just witnessed perfectionism in my opening and , yeah , maybe some of you will now neglect the podcast . But we joke about perfectionism . You guys know I am a perfectionist . I say that to my utter shame because it is a plague sometimes . Not that there aren't any benefits of it , but sometimes I wish I could get rid of it .

Ray Comfort 11:33

Just look in the mirror .

Emeal Zwayne 11:37

With you in it , ray . That's what I'll look , but no , you know , there have been throughout my life definite challenges because of it , and I think I've grown in some sense .

Ray Comfort 11:48

So when did it ?

Emeal Zwayne 11:49

all start . It all started when I was born . And I said this room's a mess .

Mark Spence 11:56

So did you always have a clean room , Corona ?

Oscar Navarro 11:59

Yeah , can you tell the story of you doing biblical counseling in the carpet ?

Emeal Zwayne 12:05

When I found myself on my knee brushing the tassels .

Oscar Navarro 12:07

That's like my favorite example of the way you are a professional .

Emeal Zwayne 12:10

You know to this day . Honestly , I still think back on that and I'm like are they married still ?

Mark Spence 12:16

that was the end of it that day .

Emeal Zwayne 12:18

uh , but seriously , it was like I've mentioned before , like you're coming to right , you're in a coma and then you wake up and you're like where am I ? Who am I ? What's going ? You gotta tell the story . And I was literally I'm counseling this couple . Next thing I know , in the middle of my counseling I'm down on one knee brushing the tassels with my fingers of the rug . So they're all faced the same way . Yeah , because someone had decorated my office , they put this rug with tassels . They should have known better to do that and I should have gotten rid of it the first day . I don't know what I was thinking , but I'm brushing this thing and it's like . Then there was this . I hear this quiet like , pause , like , and I look up .

Oscar Navarro 12:55

I'm like as they're pouring their heart out to you .

Emeal Zwayne 12:58

I'm so sorry , I can't believe that , but that's my life , right Like ? I mean , you guys know that you come into my office , you move things around ?

Ray Comfort 13:06

Is that when you comb that guy's mustache straight after that ?

Emeal Zwayne 13:09

Straighten his nasal hair .

Oscar Navarro 13:11

Yeah , for those who don't know , I learned this from Mark . Mark likes to go into Easy's office and just subtly move his decor , just like a half an inch .

Emeal Zwayne 13:20

Well , if I wasn't in the office and I know there was a tour , because I'll come back and everything will be moved , because Ray goes in and does the same thing .

Ray Comfort 13:27

I can't help it my friend Bill .

Emeal Zwayne 13:28

No , I'm sorry , it's an obsession I've got .

Ray Comfort 13:31

I just can't help it . I just got to move things .

Emeal Zwayne 13:33

Yeah , that's your obsession . But yeah , my friend Bill Daniels , when I was a kid same thing teenagers He'd come into my room , he'd move something . I'd come in and I just start straightening . We know you don't think Everywhere I go .

Ray Comfort 13:48

I realized what a mistake I had made , letting you marry my daughter when we went to Israel for the first time and the first night we were there I turned over to get a sleep in the dark and I heard swish , swish , swish , swish , swish . Easy changed the sheets in the hotel . He brought his own sheets to Israel because he didn't trust their sheets .

Emeal Zwayne 14:06

I tried to bring my own bed , but they wouldn't let it on the plane .

Mark Spence 14:11

I remember going to Easy's house and he has towels over the stove and they were like perfectly lined up and he was going around cleaning things up and I was going around moving the towel , offsetting them and Easy continually would go back to that same towel and fix it .

Emeal Zwayne 14:26

I did it several times without realizing that it was happening .

Mark Spence 14:27

it I didn't think several times without realizing that it was happening because I don't think about it .

Emeal Zwayne 14:31

I got it from my mom . My mom was just a hyper perfectionist and uh yeah she had you I know right , that's where she .

Oscar Navarro 14:39

Do you have like strict routines ? Do you have like a morning routine ? That's like the same every time you can't like skip a beat yeah , I have all kinds of routines in my life Should you ? Maybe start flossing as one of them . Add that to the list .

Ray Comfort 14:53

Yeah , we've all noticed the fur in between .

Emeal Zwayne 15:00

Stop that , ray , we won't talk about that . But you know I joke . But I don't think it's a condition , I don't think it's like some kind of whatever .

Ray Comfort 15:15

But there are people that do have stuff like that .

Emeal Zwayne 15:17

Have you ever been on Oprah ? Yeah , I'm sure she'll have me on , but there are people that have conditions like that . You know , I'm talking like people that are washing their hands , like you know 10,000 times a day before breakfast Doing things and you know .

Emeal Zwayne 15:29

But the thing is , guys , is that obviously , guys , guys , guys , y'all that the opposite extreme of this is negligence . Right , and we're talking about this . You know I talked about some of my stuff , but perfectionism can go into so many , you know , different areas of life . It can go into our marriage , it can go into our parenting , our work , our appearance , spiritual disciplines . One of the things that was difficult for me when I was a newer believer is I could not have my devotional time unless my entire surroundings were perfect . So I would just perfect everything , then I would sit down , and that's just not right . And yet you have that kind of perfectionism that I think can be a big hindrance to people , but then you have , on the other side of that , negligence .

Ray Comfort 16:15

You're talking about me ? Yes , I don't care . Two opposites .

Emeal Zwayne 16:19

Yeah , I don't care . Two opposites , and that is beautiful , though , how the Lord harmonizes people , because we are opposite in certain things . I mean , ray , you are kind of perfectionistic with tidiness , you love things clean and tidy , but you've taught me that there are certain things that , in the sense of negligence , may be important to neglect for more important things , you know . So we want to talk about all that today and just talk about how perfectionism can be harmful as an extreme and how negligence can be harmful in the wrong context .

Ray Comfort 16:50

I did some research to get some good quotes on perfectionism , but there was nothing good enough .

Emeal Zwayne 16:55

You quit , yeah . So yeah , it's . Thank you , mark . I think it's important to remember that . And then we've seen it even in the spiritual and it'd be good to talk about that those that drift into the era of sinless perfection we have an episode on that , yeah and how dangerous that can be as well . What planet ?

Ray Comfort 17:15

are they from to believe in sinless perfection ?

Emeal Zwayne 17:17

Yeah , it's crazy . That has to be one of the most destructive doctrines and I think , one of the most detrimental to a Christian's walk . But yeah , I mean , why do you think people get to that ? Could it be , mark ? You think a personality thing , that they are a perfectionist and now they want to apply that to .

Mark Spence 17:35

Well , I actually heard a theologian talk about that one time . He said for some people somebody becomes a sinless perfectionist based off of a desire to want to walk with God , wanting , perhaps craving , holiness and to do that which is right , and they so beat themselves up over the fact that they've sinned right . He who the Son has set free is free indeed . And then they start over-spiritualizing certain texts and then they start misapplying those texts to themselves . And Ray's often said to somebody who considers to be a sinless perfectionist let me just talk to your wife . Right , see , if you have sinned right , if you say you have no sin , you deceive yourself and the truth is not in you . You cannot continue in a habitual lifestyle of sin and still be a Christian , but that doesn't mean you're not gonna continue a wrestle with sin to the day we die . We haven't arrived , we haven't attained , oscar , do you ?

Emeal Zwayne 18:33

think that a part of people getting into sinless perfectionism and again , the whole episode isn't about that and we have dealt with it before but do you think , like we've said before , that it could be a byproduct of people not realizing the real nature of sin , like they're just looking at it as oh , it's this big thing and that big thing . They're not thinking about the motives of their heart and their intent , all those things that go on inside and every type of thing like that .

Oscar Navarro 18:57

I think you just hit on the head and the motives of our heart , because since Adam and Eve I mean you think about the fall before God shows up what does Adam and Eve do ? They clothe themselves , they try to justify themselves . I think sinless perfectionism is another form of trying to justify ourselves . We have a starting point of grace , but then we say I can get to a place where I am no longer in need of grace , because that's what sinless perfectionism is , is that I am no longer in need of grace , and so that's just another form of us trying to play God and control our

Embracing Failure to Pursue Excellence

Oscar Navarro 19:31

salvation .

Emeal Zwayne 19:32

Wow , Ray , you've always struggled with certain elements of those that are perfectionistic , because you see it as a hindrance to greater things . But it has its place where we want to pursue excellence . But where do you think it can become a stumbling block ?

Ray Comfort 19:51

Oh , I think , boy , we should always pursue excellence , but we're never going to get it . It depends on your definition of excellence . We'll never get perfectionism . If I could attain perfectionism in my thought that I could really have a holy thought life , I wouldn't need God's grace , I wouldn't need to come to the cross like I do daily . If I could attain to having my own wisdom , I wouldn't need to pray for the wisdom of God . So those weaknesses that dwell in my flesh , that plague me daily , my safety guard , keep me at the foot of the cross . But I am not a perfectionist . I strive for excellence . Never get it . But my life is filled with failure , absolutely Books that have failed , tracks that haven't worked out .

Ray Comfort 20:34

I created a T-shirt with written on it if you knew , you would ask . And I've been mocked for about 30 years since that . For 30 more for sure , yeah , for sure , if God gives me another 30 . Yeah , it was based on John 4 , where Jesus said to the woman well , if you knew , you would ask and he'd give you a living water . So I thought this could provoke people to say what does that mean ? And so I had one made . If you knew , you'd ask . And I got so laughed at by my family . I've never worn it again . But yes , it's a trail . It's a graveyard of failures , but every now and then there's a success . There's a wallet tracked , or a million dollar bill tracked , or a book that takes off , or a video that works . And it comes in the midst of failure . Someone once said Aim at the moon , and if you clear the trees , you're doing fine .

Mark Spence 21:24

And .

Ray Comfort 21:24

I just love that . Just aim at the moon . I'm going to jump to the moon today and , ooh , I just cleared the trees . Wow , perfectionist says you've got to land on the moon or you're a failure .

Emeal Zwayne 21:33

Right , what about your LA Air Can ?

Ray Comfort 21:36

Ray LA Air Can yeah , that was a failure . I was waiting for . I bought it , you did yeah it , you did yeah .

Emeal Zwayne 21:40

You did Wait , wait , wait . Were you actually selling these through the ministry ?

Ray Comfort 21:44

Yes , yeah , this is like in 1980 , no 1991 .

Emeal Zwayne 21:48

We used to have it on the shelf somewhere , didn't we ?

Ray Comfort 21:55

I think it's still there . Yeah , while I was waiting for God to open doors , I knew I should be in the States to bring Hell's Best Keep Secret to the church and I thought what am I going to do ? When's it going to get open the the doors ? I felt like a jehovah's witness because no one knew who I was , couldn't get ministry . So I started doing these crazy things like that can of la air . That was just pollution on the inside , or the block it was a block of wood you run around the block .

Ray Comfort 22:14

It just had the block written on it and it just was like the , the . What is the rock ? What was that thing ? The ?

Mark Spence 22:23

pet rock .

Emeal Zwayne 22:23

Yeah , it was , it was that whole thing .

Ray Comfort 22:25

They sold so much of those yeah and so the block would have been a great thing . It could have taken off . You give it to your boss it's just a block of wood and it's in a nice container and you open it up and it says the block . And every day you run around the block and feel good about yourself .

Oscar Navarro 22:49

And it's like doors open for us . You know , this is something that I really appreciate you , ray . It's that you are not afraid to fail and that is a such a powerful disposition to have as a person . I actually read this book recently called Right Kind of Wrong , and I I read this book because I heard this podcast with the author on it and I thought it was so compelling that I bought the book . I finished the book and I was like , yeah , the podcast was enough , it was kind of so I don't recommend the book .

Oscar Navarro 23:07

But one of the things , one of the stories that comes out of the book , is the author talks about open heart surgery and they go through the story of it and basically the first doctor that performed open heart surgery , the tool that they use , this machine , was the size of a living room and the first person they did hope open heart surgery on was a 12 year old little boy , whoa , and the little boy passed away and then two weeks later they had an opportunity to do it again . I think it was like a 15 year old girl in that little girl passed away . Seven different people passed away for different reasons while this guy was trying to perform the first open heart surgery , for different reasons , while this guy was trying to perform the first open heart surgery , but he was so convinced that he can get it right to save lives that he pressed on not being afraid of failure , didn't look at those deaths as like not a big deal . He mourned them , he lamented them , it broke him up over it , but he was so convinced that he was on the precipice of something that could save lives . And now today , open heart surgery is an outpatient thing . Thousands of people every single year , lives are saved .

Oscar Navarro 24:14

Because he pressed on , beyond his failures , to have success . And as I was reading the book , it reminded me of you , because , truly , you are not afraid to fail , because people who are generally successful are masters at failing . We've all heard like if you bat 300 , you're a hall of famer . That means you're failing 60% of the time , and so , yeah , the point is to not be afraid to fail , to not allow that to hold you back , and I've really appreciated watching you play that out in your life .

Ray Comfort 24:45

I'm really good at failing . I used to have kids clubs called the Good Time Clubs , three clubs that I ran and they had 100 kids in each club . I'd go to a local school and give out candy and say come to the club on Tuesday . It's at 4 o'clock and we've got more candy for you . And blah blah . And I had a ventriloquist doll that I couldn't speak through . It was just crazy .

Emeal Zwayne 25:03

I didn't have any talent for that we just discovered Charlie's still around .

Ray Comfort 25:08

Yes , he's still around . My brother's got him in Australia . But one thing I remember and that's what brought it up is I thought , man , I've got no music for these kids . I wish I could play a guitar or something . I'm not kidding . My brother-in-law came over to me as a Christian . He says God's told me to give you my guitar for some reason . And so I learned the guitar and I learned it . How can I put this ? Not playing , just not playing by ear , but playing by memory . I don't know if you've ever heard anyone doing that . You know this is the day . That song that's G A and C , G A and C , just by memory , nothing to do with my ear . And the kids loved it . They didn't have a clue . It wasn't singing very nice . I got the kids to sing louder than me . That's what happened .

Emeal Zwayne 25:46

Yeah , that's a smart idea . Yeah , you know . I think it would be safe to say that perfectionism can have at its core a form of selfishness , because oftentimes a perfectionist can drift into demanding of others certain things that are unreasonable because of what they want or what they like . One of the areas I've always tried to intentionally guard myself with in perfectionism has been with my children , because I realized early on , if I allow this to really manifest in terms of , sometimes , what I feel and what I want , this can really destroy my children , because you end up giving them the sense like nothing is ever good enough and that's kind of it's become proverbial . You see it repeated in movies and cheesy sitcoms and stuff like that oh , I'm never good enough for you . But there is that real element of it , though , where you can create that in your child and it can be radically different .

Mark Spence 26:48

So how do you find there's a couple of questions here right ? How do you find the balance , because you want them to excel ? And how do you guard yourself ? By not doing that , not demanding that perfectionism , because oftentimes , like you said , you just find yourself doing it , not realizing that you're doing it . So do you catch yourself exerting that perfectionism Because oftentimes , like you said , you just find yourself doing it not realizing that you're doing it . So do you catch yourself exerting that perfectionism onto them at times , and then they're like dad , they call you out and say , dad , leave me alone or let me make my decisions .

Emeal Zwayne 27:17

Yeah , I'm trying to think if that's really ever happened . Much , if anything , I think one of the things I try to do is to like , let's say , one of my kids does something I asked him to do . Like I remember one time I talked to my kids about initiative and taking initiative , you know , and just the importance of that . Like , don't just do what you're told to do , but be the kind of person who looks around . Like , let's say , at home , right , we all live here at home , you have your chores , but look beyond that , you know . And so I remember in our yard , when we were living at our other house , I had this kumquat tree and I love this thing , right , well , one day I go outside and the thing was just almost like a twig sticking out of the ground . This thing was full and big . You know I'm exaggerating , but I'm like what ? And Luke , my son Luke , comes . He's like yeah , look , dad , I trimmed the kumquat tree and that it was like . At that moment I'm like good job son .

Emeal Zwayne 28:19

But honestly there was that part of me that was like man , I could right now be like son . This isn't how you trim a kumquat tree . I was so proud of him for taking that initiative and it was in a moment like that where I'm like good job , luke , I am so proud of you . But imagine I was like Luke . What did you do ? That one moment in time could affect him so deeply that for the rest of his life , with me at least , he's hesitant to do anything . You know it's rewarding effort over results .

Oscar Navarro 28:49

Yeah , like , what effort do you put into this versus what are the results of this thing ?

Emeal Zwayne 28:53

Right , yeah , or you know , even like with school , I want my kids to get straight A's right and I pay for my kids' college . I only pay for A's and B's right . Anything below B , I don't pay . But you , for A's and B's right , anything below B , I don't pay . But you know , there's times when , man , they're doing all that they possibly could they're , you know they have , they're working , they're ministering at church and being part of you know whatever ministry , and then they're going to school and a random class might pop up and they don't do well and they get a C on an exam or in the class . And this is where , as parents , we have to walk and say , hey , good job , I know you tried your best . Now we challenge them . Are you trying your best ? Are you working your hardest ? Are you ? You know what's the tone and tenor of their life ? But if that's all you know , dealt with and understood , then you can just come alongside and say , hey , it's okay .

Emeal Zwayne 29:34

And you encourage them and you don't .

Oscar Navarro 29:35

Oh a B what's a , b , why are you getting Bs thing ? As I was reading about perfectionism , it was interesting to discover that there's this cultural demand on young men and women to be perfect and it goes first . It goes in the school system right , where there's this need to absolutely get all straight A's and as soon as a student gets that first B , it's like I am a failure , I'm not going to get the job I'm going to get . And so there's this anxiety that so many students walk around college campuses in fear of not being perfect because it's gonna utterly ruin their lives , which the irony , of course , at the end of the day is , once you graduate and move on and you're getting hired , all they care about is the certification of graduation . They're not like what did you get in math 101 ?

Oscar Navarro 30:19

You know what I mean .

Oscar Navarro 30:25

But one of the other ways that perfectionism shows itself in culture too , is social media when , like young women will get online and it's like you think about the way they rate themselves .

Oscar Navarro 30:32

In a regular society , regular culture , without social media , a woman walks into a church service and they're looking for I mean , first , they're looking for the glory of God , but secondarily , a single young woman might be looking for a spouse and they're just , they're looking for a spouse , nothing else thinking about .

Oscar Navarro 30:51

But today , a young woman goes on social media and they see the air , quote perfected self . They see the perfect image with the perfect angle , the perfect filter , that sometimes airbrushed and sometimes not even real , and they compare themselves to a perception of perfection . And they look themselves in the mirror and they see man , I've got these freckles , my eyes are this , my face is that . And ultimately , here's the worst part when we get sucked into that kind of version of perfectionism , is that we miss out on the reality that God is the one that made you , he gave you those freckles , he gave you your beauty . And that's the saddest part is that when we compare ourselves in that kind of a way , ultimately we're questioning God's workmanship , that he made us to be , something he desires us to be , and we're comparing that to a facade , a fake image of perfectionism .

Emeal Zwayne 31:50

No , it's good . I was quickly . I can't find it , but I was wanting to find this quote where this guy talked about how he would rather be . You know , rather than being the most glorious creature imaginable , he would rather be the kind who's happy by the fact , no matter what he looks like , that he was fashioned by the hand of God so good that that in and of itself should be , you know , the all sufficiency . You know , Mark , you had put that question to me . I want to put one to you , Would you say , in light of what scripture says you know , fathers , do not provoke your children to wrath that having that perfectionistic kind of attitude with your kids could in a sense do that to them . It provokes them to wrath , and brings them .

Ray Comfort 32:29

That's the verse I thought of when you were talking about it . Wow , not that I'm terrific .

Mark Spence 32:34

Yeah , I think it definitely can . Obviously , we need God's grace and his restraint to prevent something like that from

The Dangers of Perfectionism and Legalism

Mark Spence 32:45

happening . I spoke at a youth group in upstate New York and it was predominantly Asian , and I bring that up for a point . And when I had asked the youth leader what do you find your kids struggling with more than anything ? And he said suicide . I said that's what your youth group struggles with more than anything . He said , yeah , I go why ? And he says well , you have to understand the Asian culture from which these kids are coming from , that if they don't score a perfect 1600 on the SAT , then they've brought shame to the family . And I was so taken back . That is so far back . I mean I didn't even take the SAT , right , my kids didn't take the SAT .

Mark Spence 33:26

I'm going to spell it , I lost my train of thought .

Emeal Zwayne 33:33

Yeah , mark , and I think the point in that is that you have some cultures that are like an honor culture and that's going to have ramifications . I mean , you do hear about that a lot businessmen that commit suicide in places like Japan . I mean , ray , you had a guy translating for you and you drove the guy crazy . He ran out of the room crying that was in Japan .

Ray Comfort 33:53

Yeah , I was doing Hell's Best , Kept Secret . And the analogy of the two men sitting on the plane gets so complicated I have to concentrate in English and he was doing it in Japanese , and he just flung his hands up and ran out of the church crying .

Mark Spence 34:07

But then I remember , and then the pastor stood up and the pastor interpreted for you . He did great .

Ray Comfort 34:11

He did great , but I'm wondering about the guy that ran . No , I was going to run after him . I thought I can't . I've got to finish the analogy . These two guys are sitting on a plane , don't know what to do , but yeah you guys talked about straight . A's . I'm serious , I don't think I've got an A in my life . It was everything C . I thought it was to match my name or something .

Emeal Zwayne 34:30

I , I remember after , you know , and that's where my perfectionism started again . But you know , before I got saved , I had a 0.32 grade point average .

Oscar Navarro 34:39

Which is perfectly fair .

Emeal Zwayne 34:40

Yeah , I tried to perfectly fail in 10 work Four Fs , two D minuses , D minuses in PE and drama , which it's almost illegal to give anyone an F in those . And then you know . But then after I got saved , and again it's because I was a gangster and I didn't care . And so I was like , yeah , be perfectionistic and being a gangster and forget school , you know one or the other . But then I got saved and I went from a 0.32 to 4.0 my first semester back to my high school , where I got kicked out and you know and , but to me my heart was , in that sense , I'm doing this under the Lord , I want to give God my best , and I think that's where , again , things can get off kilter . Right , we could look at perfectionism and say , okay , that can be dangerous , it can have some of its benefits when you're trying to do something right , but we go to the other extreme and become negligent and we start not giving our best . Oh , it's fine , it's no big deal , and that's not how it should be in terms of how God has called us .

Emeal Zwayne 35:37

I love what Wayne Grudem said . He said when Jesus commands us to be perfect , as our Father in heaven is perfect . Matthew 5 , 48, . This simply shows that God's own absolute moral purity is the standard toward which we are to aim and the standard for which God holds us accountable . The fact that we are unable to attain that standard does not mean that it will be lowered . Rather , it means that we need God's grace and forgiveness to overcome our remaining sin . Similarly , when Paul commands the Corinthians to make holiness perfect in the fear of the Lord , or prays that God would sanctify the Thessalonians wholly , he's pointing to the goal that he desires them to reach . He does not imply that any reach it , but only that this is the high moral standard toward which God wants all believers to aspire .

Ray Comfort 36:18

I'm so delighted to hear you say that , because I was getting nervous , Because often it's interpreted be perfect because your Father in heaven is perfect doesn't mean perfection . It just means maturity , which means that God was once immature and your Father in heaven is now mature . So it can't mean that . It means he has a perfect law , he's perfect and he demands perfection . We warn every man , we present every man perfect , and that can't be done without the grace of God .

Ray Comfort 36:40

And that's what it drives us to you see that and think I can't be pure of heart . As Jesus said , I can't be perfect . I need God's mercy , Amen .

Emeal Zwayne 36:47

But yeah , I mean Oscar , that should . And again , it can cross over into just other areas , but in the spiritual look I yearn to be holy . That's the standard I want to pursue excellence , look , yet . However , I'm going to stumble . I'm going to struggle , but there's God's grace . It's his grace that enables me to live righteously . When I fail , he paid for those sins .

Oscar Navarro 37:17

And then we can apply that to other things too . Yeah , I've heard it said like this to understand the difference between antinomianism and legalism , which is kind of like what we're alluding to here with this idea of pursuing Christ , could you define antinomianism for those two ? Antinomianism would be the rejection of God's law , which is to say like God's , it's an abuse of grace , it's to say that God has saved me , therefore my actions no longer matter . Legalism would be and there's different forms of legalism , but essentially it's either I'm earning my salvation back or I'm earning my salvation period through my good works . And I think the key I've heard an author say it like this the key is recognizing the difference of I want to be accepted , therefore I obey , versus I've been accepted through the blood of Christ , therefore I obey , like the fact that he first loved us while we were yet sinners . That should propel us to joyful obedience unto the Lord Right Amen .

Emeal Zwayne 38:16

Yeah and Mark , let me take this as an example and get your thoughts on it . Like I think with , for example , let's take school as an example for our kids . Do you think it's right to say to them something like , hey , look , it's not about the A so much as it is how you glorify God in this , like you're doing this as an offering unto the Lord , versus like , hey , I want to get A's for my reputation , for my accomplishment . You do it unto the Lord , hopefully it'll yield an A , but at least you can walk away with that thought .

Excellence and Perfectionism in Christianity

Mark Spence 38:49

Yeah , christians should excel more than non-Christians . They really should . You could be a slow learner , but that doesn't mean you stop learning . You don't hit a plateau .

Mark Spence 38:59

There's a saying inside the restaurant business you never want to hire Christians because they're lazy , they don't want to work on Sundays and they're the worst to try to navigate through learning different things , and I think that's terrible . I think that we should absolutely be the best at what we do , and if you mess up you continually , you move forward , right . I mean , what does the scripture say ? If somebody doesn't provide for his family , he's worse than an infidel . He's denied the faith , right . So it's not an option to kind of give up , and that's kind of what we are raising up today . Vance Havner said the modern Christian is like a chocolate bunny and he melts under the heat of pressure , which is the modern day warfare that we have . So I think that we need to teach people to gird up the loins of their mind , to wake up early , to stay late , to make your bed and just to work hard to be the best that you could possibly be .

Emeal Zwayne 39:54

Yeah , always push them to aim for the very best and the highest , but season it with grace and an understanding that your identity doesn't lie right . You're not a human doing . You're a human being . Your identity lies in the fact you've been made in the image of God , that you're secure in Christ . But that should give you freedom . We talked about freedom on that other episode . It should give you freedom to excel even more , and you're doing it with a noble cause . It's not for some frivolous wreath right , like scripture talks about , but , man , you're pleasing the Lord , you're glorifying him , you're letting your light .

Oscar Navarro 40:27

so shine among men . You said something earlier that really struck a chord , which is ? You alluded to the fact that perfectionism , or being held back by the need to be perfect , is almost like a man-centered view . And on that note , there is and I'm going to confess something here . But before I confess it , let me just say there is something beautiful and good about accepting our limitedness , our frailty as human beings , because when we recognize that we cannot be perfect , that we'll never , you know , you'll never write the perfect song , you'll never write the perfect book , you'll never do anything that will be absolutely perfect . The beauty in that is then you come to depend on the work of God , right , and it moves you away from your own humanness of like . I need to excel and perform and have this outcome versus what I'm doing is a sacrifice to the Lord and the outcome , the impact , is up to him . He gets the glory for that rather than me getting the glory because I wrote the perfect . Whatever .

Oscar Navarro 41:30

My confession in that is that I do struggle with like when it comes to writing . I struggle with it because I love literature as an art form , I love prose , I love the way , I love a really well written book . You know , I think it's beautiful and it's good , and Ray is encouraging me to write a book , as he's encouraged you guys to write a book too , and you took them up on that offer . In spite of your struggle with perfectionism , which is an encouragement to me , my struggle has always been well . Just because I know what good writing is doesn't mean I'll be , a good writer but again , my confession is that's man-centered .

Oscar Navarro 42:07

I don't need to be some great writer , I need to trust the Lord . My writing should be a sacrifice to Him and the outcome and the result is purely up to Him , because he gets the glory either way .

Ray Comfort 42:18

I think easy on a test to this when it comes to writing , you can write something that's perfect at the night and first thing in the morning . You think that's an abomination . As soon as you see it , you think what I thought , that was good last time .

Emeal Zwayne 42:29

I know it's so weird how that happens , but , oscar , I love that . What's the motive , right ? It's so weird how that happens , yeah , but Oscar , I love that . You know , like , what's the motive , right ? I mean , ray didn't do well in school . He didn't do well in English . You nearly failed life .

Ray Comfort 42:39

I still can't do good English . I did fail in English .

Emeal Zwayne 42:41

You did Okay you failed English and then he ends up writing over 100 books , but , ray , with your first book , my . So that desperation compelled you to do something that maybe you weren't even perfect at . Obviously , before you got saved , you didn't do well in English .

Ray Comfort 43:04

Absolutely . Actually , I found writing frustrating before I was a Christian .

Emeal Zwayne 43:11

So I had nothing to write about , actually yeah . Now you have a song in your mouth . I like the thought that God uses flawed rather than perfect vessels . Nothing to write about , actually yeah , and that's yeah .

Ray Comfort 43:15

Now you have a song in your mouth and Um , I . I like the thought that God uses flawed rather than perfect vessels . You see this in the life of Peter . You can ask yourself who walked on water in history ? Only two men Jesus and Peter . Wow , you know , he failed , he sunk . David Copperfield , did he really ? Um , did he really ? Anyway ? Someone once said and it's a great quote none of us is inflammable .

Emeal Zwayne 43:41

We all make mistakes , that's good , yeah . And you know . The other side of that again , is negligence right ? And I think , to prevent us from negligence , as believers , we need to remember this very powerful and , I would say , like haunting , lose sleep type of verse 2 Corinthians 5.10 , for we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ . Sobering this is speaking to Christians we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body , whether good or evil . Guys , we're going to stand before Christ's judgment seat . We're going to give account to the one who knows every atom in our being , who is known our every thought , motive , intention . I'm not going Where's Ray Comfort ?

Oscar Navarro 44:29

Y'all getting crowns . I'm getting a dunce hat .

Emeal Zwayne 44:32

And again , the blessing is for Christians . This is not a judgment onto condemnation , but , man , it is gonna be a serious reckoning . It's not gonna be , oh okay . Well , I'm not going to hell , so all's good . No Scripture speaks of loss of reward and that sobering moment of having squandered so much that God had entrusted into us . I love what Jonathan Edwards said . He said resolved in his resolutions . He said constantly , with the utmost niceness and diligence and the strictest scrutiny , to be looking into the state of my soul , that I may know whether I have truly an interest in Christ or not , that when I come to die I may not have any negligence , respecting this to repent of man . I love that . Like with scrutiny , with intensity , with strictness , like to examine our hearts and to say Lord , am I truly , is Christ my everything . And it's easy to drift from that .

Mark Spence 45:32

The world tells us go hard or go home . And I often tell people go hard , because we're almost home . You know , work hard , strive hard . First , corinthians 9 says do you not know those who run in a race ? They all run , but one receives the prize . Run in such a way that you may obtain it . And Paul told the church at Philippi I press towards the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus , philippi . I press towards the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus , and I always want to push my kids to a limit , not to one of despair , but one to excellence . And if you study your kids and you study your wife and you study your friends so you can push them to greatness , then you're doing a good thing .

Mark Spence 46:11

It's not a bad thing to push somebody and probe someone to do something that they're not bad thing . To push somebody and to probe someone to do something that they're not doing and to push them out of the nest , to get them to fly and to soar , amen .

Ray Comfort 46:22

And speaking of running , we have Olympic tracks . Oh yeah , Don't forget that it's free , free Olympic tracks .

Emeal Zwayne 46:28

Check them out at livingwaterscom . Yeah , and I think of again , like we were talking about the different areas in our life and one of the things that I think is so key to remember we talk about it a lot on the podcast and that's the centrality of the church and the life of the believer , the community of God's people . It's always tragic when you hear of someone that you know doesn't have that sort of community and they don't have it because they've been negligent . Mark Dever and Paul Alexander said if a member shows prolonged negligence in gathering with God's people , how can they say he loves them , and if he doesn't love them , how can he say he loves God ? Wow , you know that diligence that you know to man .

Emeal Zwayne 47:12

I need to be with the people of God . Wow , you know that diligence that you know to to man . I need to be with the people of God . Do we not love God's people ? How can we say you know we hate our brother , and yet we love God , who we don't see , when that's our brother that we see ? And so we need to examine our hearts in that regard . Ray , what were you doing right now ? Wait , you think we didn't hear you . You think the people listening to the podcast didn't hear ?

Ray Comfort 47:32

what you just did . Yeah , I repent Mark's drinking from his drink and I just went .

Emeal Zwayne 47:37

Yeah .

Ray Comfort 47:38

And .

Emeal Zwayne 47:38

Mark's being disobedient , drinking from a bottle and not from a cup . Yeah , because you're a perfectionist .

Emeal Zwayne 47:42

Oh , here we go . You're never good enough , mark , but listen to what RC Sproul said . He said here , then , is the real problem of our negligence we fail in our duty to study God's word , not so much because it is difficult to understand , not so much because it is dull and boring , but because it is work . Our problem is not a lack of intelligence or a lack of passion . Our problem is that we are lazy . Ouch , so there's another area God's word . Why are you neglecting the word ? Do you believe it's a living word of God ? I mean , if you believed you had a billion dollars deposited into your bank account , I'm sure you'd be visiting that bank account on many occasions . You believe this is a living , breathing word of God that's sharper than any two-edged sword . That's the most prized possession on earth . Well , you should be in it , and if you're not , you're being negligent , you're being lazy .

Emeal Zwayne 48:37

So strive , have those goals . Determine that you wanna honor the Lord in everything that you do . Don't get tripped up in perfectionism for your own likes or for your own reputation , or whatever . Do it because you wanna be perfect , as your heavenly father is perfect , knowing you'll never attain that . But that's the goal , right ? That's where you press toward , and Paul said that , right , I haven't attained perfection , but I press toward the goal for the prize of the upper call of God in Christ Jesus and Philippians . And so do that , friends , and do it all unto his glory . Examine your hearts Again . We don't do this podcast merely to give you entertainment . Right , you get some of that , but we do it to .

Ray Comfort 49:16

What we don't .

Emeal Zwayne 49:17

No , you didn't know that . Thanks for interrupting my powerful , passionate exhortation .

Oscar Navarro 49:22

Honestly .

Emeal Zwayne 49:24

We do it to stir you to serve the true and living God . Mark , that's one of the most powerful quotes , honestly , I've ever heard you share , and that's original right .

Mark Spence 49:35

Go hard , go home .

Emeal Zwayne 49:36

Yeah , yeah , I didn't think it's that deep ?

Mark Spence 49:39

No , no , the other one go hard because we're almost home . Yeah , Go hard or go home is what the world says . Go hard because we're almost home is what I say .

Emeal Zwayne 49:44

That's amazing man , seriously , it's really powerful . Okay , thank you , you're perfect I perfected that . You progress . There it is . So there you have it . Friends , we hope you've been blessed and encouraged today . Don't forget how to bring your children to Christ and keep them there , avoiding the tragedy of false conversion . The Living Waters mug and the Heaven Study Bible livingwaterscom . Keep coming back . Hey , the podcast is still reaching very high echelons .

Emeal Zwayne 50:09

Help us get perfect friends Look there are countries where the podcast has been number one and , if not number one , close to it even in general here or there , and many countries it's in the top 5 , 10 , 20 of Christian podcasts or religious podcasts there , and still one of the top in America . So thanks for helping us , friends . Don't forget podcastlivingwaterscom with your thoughts and comments . Like and share and put your comments out there . We'll read them . Thank you for joining us , friends . We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast , the one podcast you can't wait to turn off . Ooh , that was good today , Ray . Perfect it Hmm . Perfect , it was perfect .