That we need to reorient our lives so that where we seek , where we spend our most time and seek wisdom , is first and foremost the Bible , god's word , our daily bread , then through the local church and church tradition , then through nature and beauty and God's creation , then books , then internet , then social media . So , to answer your question , maybe you don't have the opportunity for a one-to-one mentor . You can still be intentional about surrounding your time with people who are further in life than you and are in places that you want to be . Find godly men in your lives or women in your lives , and maybe they don't have the time to disciple you , but I bet they have time to just get a cup of coffee . Maybe it's not a full-blown discipleship program , it doesn't matter . Do what you can to surround yourself with people who you can glean from , from .
Emeal ZwayneAnother life-altering question for Ray Ray . Ray , ray , ray , ray , comfort Ray , this is big . Okay , it's a hypothetical , but I'm going to read it so as to eliminate any potential confusion . You ready , I'm ready ? Okay , let's say that in New Zealand , the name that's pronounced Ray , your name , the name that's pronounced Ray , is used for both male and female , even though it's spelled differently for each . You know , like how we have Francis or Carrie or Stacey or Terry , those are used interchangeably for male or female . Okay , so for the male it's spelled R-A-Y , the way you spell your name .
Ray ComfortWhy .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , why ? Because it's spelled R-A-Y . For the female it's spelled R-Y-E , but again , yeah , yeah , hypothetical , but again they're pronounced . They're both pronounced Ray . Okay , okay , you got that . Okay .
Emeal ZwayneSo let's say that here in the US people pronounce the female version R-Y-E as Ray and the male version R-A-Y as Rye , like rye bread , rye , okay , yeah , got that . Okay . So they pronounce why do I feel as though I'm stepping into a trap ? No , no , not at all , no , no , not at all , no , no , no . So they pronounce the female version Ray and the male version Rye . Okay , like Rye bread . You got that .
Emeal ZwayneAre people still following ? Oh , yeah , yeah , yeah , have you thought about maybe having a point when you speak ? No , no , no , no , no , no , no , no , no point . Okay , listen , zealand , hypothetically . And you knew someone , some Americans , who were living in New Zealand for about 35 years . Okay , how would you feel if these Americans , who can actually and fully pronounce the name Ray , because they do it for the female version , insist on calling you Rye just because that's how that male version of the spelling is pronounced in their country , again , even though linguistically they fully have the ability to pronounce Ray and have heard that name being pronounced that way in New Zealand for 35 years . Would you be kind of bothered by that ?
Ray ComfortI think you do a terrible New Zealand accent .
Emeal ZwayneNo , I don't . So Ray pronounce the name D-A-W-N .
Ray ComfortD-A-W-N .
Emeal ZwayneOkay , pronounce the name D-O-W-N D-A-W-N . Okay , pronounce the name D-O-N Dawn . Ah , so you do that , ray , is that ?
Ray Comfortnice to do .
Emeal ZwayneYes , ah , that's exactly what you do so where's your point ? My point is that it's a terrible thing to do that to people . It is not . Yes , it is . It's horrible , but let's forget that , friends , because we have here with us today my beautiful wife , rachel Zwayne yeah , along with my daughter , kylie Mark's daughter . What's your daughter's name ?
Ray ComfortEden .
Emeal ZwayneAlmost forgot Eden's name .
And let's not forget our dear friend Deborah Draper , who , by the way , is here from England visiting us .
Ray ComfortAnd has listened to every single podcast episode . It's not Deborah . It's not Deborah .
Emeal ZwayneDeborah Debbie , deb , whatever .
Ray ComfortH is silent .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , did you guys get that ? She's listened to every episode . That's wild .
Mark SpenceShe's also a jujitsu sort of master , but I told her how I'd be able to beat her .
Emeal ZwayneRight now , mark , you did .
Ray ComfortIs that ?
Emeal Zwaynetrue , debra , come on .
Mark SpenceI want to see the skill . The only way I could beat her is , I think , if she can't get near me Exactly .
Oscar NavarroIf you can run faster than her .
Emeal ZwayneAnd she's in a straight jacket , locked up in a room . Yeah , that's the only way I'd say 3.5 seconds , you're done . I'm point five seconds , you're done . Yeah , I'm not sure to be that long and a pretzel , I don't know it'd be that long , that may be too long . So , anyhow , I proved a point on this podcast I've been wanting to prove for a long time . I won't give the backdrop to that , but it is forever proven . Thank me , thank me , thank me very much . Time for a cool , classy comment . This , uh , this name is going to be kept . You can just move on if you don't want to say it . No , it'll be kept anonymous because I think it's important , but we're going to call this Sister D .
Ray ComfortWhat's the real ?
Emeal Zwayneone I won't tell you . Hello , my name is D , my husband and I well , first of all , the title . The subject says Podcast Saved Our Marriage , oh wow .
Ray ComfortHello , my name is D . Oh , you're going to cry with this one . Yes , you are . This is a crying podcast .
Emeal ZwayneI won't . Hello , my name is D because I cried already when I read it earlier . Hello , my name is D . My husband and I have been married for almost eight years . We both grew up in Christian homes and were somewhat active in our church , but definitely complacent in our relationships with God . After our second son was born , I became obsessed with finding the truth . I realized God placed an immensely important task in our hands to train up our children in the way they should go , and I wanted to know the gospel so clearly so that I could teach them the truth from the content and give them a firm foundation . That's when I found the Living Waters videos and was so excited . When you started the podcast . I learned so much and have been ever since . I just wanted God more and more . I started reading my Bible consistently . It changed the way I parent my children , also with the help of the Joyful Mothers page .
Ray ComfortOoh plug for .
Emeal ZwayneRachel . A little while later , my husband had a job with a longer commute , so I suggested he listen to the podcast as he drove . He did , and it didn't take long for him to become convicted . One evening , my world came crashing in .
Ray ComfortStop it . Want me to take over .
Emeal ZwayneI wanted to prove you guys wrong so badly .
Ray ComfortYou can't , you're unteachable .
Emeal ZwayneCame crashing in as he confessed to me his longtime addiction to pornography . That day changed us for the better in every way . Since then , we've grown so much in the Lord together . Dive deep into the . This is such an important portion Diving deep into the Bible , truly connecting with our church and prioritizing attendance and listening to godly counsel . Through this podcast , my husband has become the leader of our family , studies his Bible every day and keeps God at the front . He teaches our children about God's boundless grace and great mercy . I'm forever thankful to you all at Living Waters for devoting your lives to reaching the world with the gospel and training up disciples for Christ . Please keep up the amazing work . God bless you and all those that this ministry impacts . He's definitely using you to truly change lives for eternity .
Mark SpenceAh Wow , that is a great , great thing to read you are an ugly crier .
Ray ComfortI don't know anyone that can cry on ugly it's such a word .
Emeal ZwayneThat is so , so powerful , dee . Thank you , can you say me that ?
Ray ComfortYeah , who are you thanking ? Remind me after Oscar . Who are you ?
Emeal Zwaynethanking Dee , Dee , that's all . We're not going to give the full name after Oscar . Who are you thanking Dee ? Dee , Dee , that's all . We're not going to get the full name . Yeah , thank you , Dee . And she said PS . Our kids love going to big events and passing out and strategically placing gospel tracts , and their courage is helping us to be more bold and sharing our faith as well .
Ray ComfortThat's wonderful .
Emeal ZwayneBut man , the whole family impacted like that , you know , and God moving . So thank you for writing in Dee . This is why we do what we do . There are challenges that come across our way in life , you know discouragement , disheartenment , times when we wonder Lord , are you really using us ? And then a letter like this comes through and just puts wind in our sails . So thank you for making it all worth it . Amen , we're really grateful . All right friends , grateful , all right friends . Yeah , and now for a radically revolutionary resource transition . This podcast is brought to you by 500 years of open air preaching .
Mark SpenceEverything .
Emeal ZwayneI've learned 50 years . Ray , tell us about this book .
Ray ComfortIt's 50 years of everything . I've learned 50 years , ray , tell us about this book . It's 50 years of everything .
Emeal ZwayneI've learned about open-air preaching . How did I know ?
Ray ComfortWhy did I even set you up for that silliness ? Yeah , I don't know what you set me up for . I don't know what it's about yeah .
Emeal ZwayneSo , ray , 50 years , that's a long time .
Ray ComfortIt is a long time .
Emeal ZwayneYeah .
Ray ComfortBut it just seems like yesterday . But it just seems like yesterday . Our life is a vapor . I remember the first time I stood up to preach , how terrified I was . No , I wasn't terrified , I was above terrified . Horrific , were you really ? Oh , yes , well , you don't know the background I came from .
Emeal ZwayneDid you talk yourself out of it Ray multiple times and then back into it ?
Ray ComfortNo , no , you just had to do it the middle of the speech . I thought I'll never ever speak in public again . So that's the background I came from . So to have to get up and do it was just horrific , but praise the Lord .
Emeal ZwayneYou did it Turned into 12 years . Yeah , turned into 50 years .
Mark SpenceYeah , that's crazy .
Emeal ZwayneIt's going to turn into 52 and a half years .
Oscar NavarroYeah , 52 and a half years oh , is it now 52 and a half years of annoying people ? There are a lot of people on this earth who hate you , Ray .
Mark SpenceSome of them in this room , oh man .
Emeal ZwayneBut seriously , you know , when you think about the opposition you got over the years and yet you pressed on . And I mentioned before we through the years have gotten people that actually reached out to the ministry and said I used to mock great comfort , I used to just think what he was saying was crazy and I ended up getting saved .
Ray ComfortAmen .
Emeal ZwayneAnd so that was all worth it . So yeah , check out the book Franz 50 Years of Open Air Preaching . Don't forget the Living Waters mug that will help you chug , and the Evidence Study Bible , this libel to bring about revival . All that Living Waters .
Ray ComfortHow come we don't get anybody come to our website ? Wheezy , I just don't understand it . What's the website again ?
Emeal ZwayneWe're terrible marketers . Yeah , I needed that laugh after that cry . Thank you guys . All right , friends , today we're dealing with I have no Idea , because I prepared for the wrong episode .
Ray ComfortI don't know how I did it , but this is really good because it solved a mystery , because in the last episode you started encroaching upon the . You did , yeah , I noticed that you started encroaching upon the subject of this one we're recording now and I said easy , that's the next one we're going to do .
Emeal ZwayneYou know what , and I know something was wrong in my mind , because my brain's thinking how would Ray even know that ? Because we haven't done that yet and I wasn't thinking , it's today .
Mark SpenceWhat did you prepare for ? I don't know .
Emeal ZwayneWell , what I prepared for is what I need .
Ray ComfortIt was being prepared , wasn't it ? That was the subject . What's that Preparedness being ?
Emeal Zwayneprepared man , I'm being prepared .
No , it's actually ironic because the subject was how to grow in being sympathetic toward people , and I need sympathy today for forgetting what we were doing . I mean , I don't know how I did it .
Mark SpenceWe have other episodes that we have lined up and I still have no idea how I jumped to this one , but really , what do ?
Emeal Zwayneyou do , you need an assistant ? Yeah , I do , yeah Well , yeah , well , wait , what do we do ?
Oscar NavarroTeachable heart , oh , teachable heart .
Emeal ZwayneI had to cultivate a teachable heart . Yeah , is that right ? Okay , so I'm at your mercy , guys . You guys are heading this thing . I got nothing . It's going to fall apart . That's what it means . But yeah , how to cultivate a teachable heart ? Let me just say I can say something on this . You know , when I first got saved , my biggest struggle probably well , it still is , but in a very pronounced way was pride why , that is the mystery of pride .
Ray ComfortIsn't it over what that's ? What I'm trying to figure that would be a great title for a book , the mystery of pride . But yeah , that would be good , yeah , really , and that .
Emeal ZwayneThat that's pretty true mark I really had . No , I weighed like three and a half pounds . Oh , that was when you were born my eyeballs were the size of basketballs , were three pounds of it and yeah , I mean I was just a crazy kid , but I did . I grew up in a culture . The Arab culture is extremely , extremely prideful . I mean every culture is , but it is pretty pronounced , and especially the Lebanese culture .
Ray ComfortWould that be status ?
Emeal ZwayneYeah , it's all about image . So what comes with that is pride . How many Louis Vuitton hats did you own ? Like 50 . Okay , yeah , so you know . So it was really a part of me and I was not teachable . In fact , to appear to be teachable was to appear to be weak , because in the arab culture , you have to basically know everything . So there was no attitude of like seeking out input and advice , because you always had to appear like you had it together , at least in my context , you know . And so , uh , didn't you have an invincible complex ?
Ray Comfortthe invincibility complex , yeah , yeah , yeah when I went on that field trip with my class and I had the sense all of a sudden , if and so Didn't you ?
Emeal Zwaynehave an invincible complex . The invincibility complex , yeah , yeah , yeah . When I went on that field trip with my class and I had the sense all of a sudden , if the bus rolled off the cliff , blew up , I'd get up and just walk away , I mean , I really , I said it to my teacher .
Ray ComfortShe looked at me like so you'd be watching Superman movies or something .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , yeah , yeah , I was always watching superhero stuff .
Emeal ZwayneI don't know where it came from , but anyway . So yeah , so I wasn't the most teachable person as a younger believer , but man . I praise God for how much he's convicted me over the years and shown me that it's not just that we can learn . We can learn from anyone . We can learn from our enemies . We can learn from unbelievers . We can learn from our enemies . We can learn from unbelievers . We can learn from a child if our hearts are attuned to saying Lord , I'm correctable and I want to learn .
Ray ComfortYou're not alone when it comes to the pride thing . New Zealand pride is different , but I remember in my surfing days it was a revelation to me when one of the guys , when we're going out surfing , he said if no one was looking I wouldn't go out . And I thought you're kidding . Is that why we're surfing Just for the praise of men ? I couldn't , didn't put it into words , but it was revelation to me . I thought this whole thing is ego . It's just crazy .
Ray ComfortAnd that's and that's often behind so many sports . You know , people say I love the sport , but they love the praise they get from me and they love the standing ovation , their applause .
Mark SpenceYeah , I actually got that when I had spoken to the Denver Broncos before they played the Chargers . When I was all done , one of their defensive backs came up to me and he said that he had been released from the team back in February because of a DUI and then his coach , kubiak , had called him up and said hey , we'd like to bring you back . He said I did not know why I was coming back until I heard , until this moment , until I heard you say to play to the glory of God . He said I would get a pick six where you intercept the ball and you run back for a touchdown or I'd run out the tunnel with the team and everybody's going crazy , he said . I lived for that moment and it reminded me of a quote that I read in January of 94 of Madonna , who said that she would gladly have given up every single penny that she had made . But she cannot give up that cheering that happens when she steps out on the stage and everybody's hollering and singing her praises .
Emeal ZwayneIt's crazy . If man is not worshiping the true and living God , he's looking to be worshiped .
Mark SpenceHe's looking to be worshiped .
Emeal ZwayneAnd so until you bow the knee to him , you'll want every looking to be worshipped , and so , until you bow the knee to him , you'll want every knee to bow to you , and so oh that's a great quote .
Ray ComfortI didn't even prepare today . Did you prepare that ? No , you could have not prepared in the future . What's ?
Emeal Zwaynegoing on . I need to do this more often . Say what was that quote again . Say it again . I don't know what you said ? I have no idea what you're saying You're not bowing the knee to God .
Ray ComfortYou want everyone to bow the knee to you , or something like that .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , I think so , something like that . Yeah , but it's true , you know , and we have all recognized it , you know . Well , that's good too .
Ray ComfortYeah , say it again , say it again Is that good .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , but you know , we all recognize it when we see it and we love it . A person with a teachable spirit , a person who , you know , when you correct them , doesn't give you an explanation , like if you come up and you say hey , you know , actually you do this like this instead of oh , yeah , yeah , well , I know , but you know I was just doing like this for the or they go oh , thank you . Oh , thank you so much . I'll change that right now . Right , like something resonates in our hearts .
Mark SpenceWe know that's right , but we struggled to do it . So how do you cultivate that teachable heart ? Oh , that's a good title , yeah .
Ray ComfortOh that's good that just come to you . It is Original right .
Oscar NavarroYeah , I like what you said before we get
there . I like what you said earlier about learning something from anyone , including children . I think that's a great disposition to have and you might think , well , what can you learn from your children ? You can learn grace and patience . Often , when I have to go and apologize to my kids , how quickly they are to forgive me . I learn grace from my children when they offer it to me because they're so ready to give it .
Oscar NavarroI would say I've been thinking about this a lot lately , even before you sent this subject , which is we have an opportunity to learn from whoever the Lord puts in our lives and if we're not being observant and aware , we miss the opportunity to receive that lesson . And I've been thinking about this a lot , especially because we were exchanging back and forth another leader that failed and leading up to that I kid you not , I was thinking about you guys and I was thinking about how blessed I am to learn about faithfulness from you three men , just the faithfulness you have towards your families , the faithfulness you have in ministry and the faithfulness you guys have to the Lord . That is something that I , on Sunday , I'll have been working here for 10 years , and I think over the last 10 years , learning the consistent , obedient faithfulness from you three has been a blessing for me .
Emeal ZwayneWow , oscar thank you so much . Yeah , and when we hear stories like that of men that have fallen , I often think of you guys and our staff and our team and all that God's doing through the ministry , and the thought of what could happen if one of us did fall . I mean , again , our hope is always that people's eyes are on the Lord , they're not looking to man , they're looking to God and they continue on with Him . Because man is fallible and is prone to error . We should know that and shouldn't be surprised . But we know human nature . It affects people , disillusions people , it grieves people and I think a big part of leaders falling is that they're not teachable , and many of them are not teachable in being accountable . They're not teachable in understanding that they can fall .
Emeal ZwayneI don't know if I've read this on here or not , but this quote by Votie Bauckham , it's so powerful . He said the wisest man in the Bible fell into sexual sin . The strongest man in the Bible fell into sexual sin and the godliest man in the Bible fell into sexual sin . The strongest man in the Bible fell into sexual sin and the godliest man in the Bible fell into sexual sin . For me to think I'm above falling into this sin is to think that I'm wiser than Solomon , stronger than Samson and godlier than King David . Wow , you know it's like that's heavy , and so it's important that we are teachable in those areas .
Emeal ZwayneAnyone can fall . I'm going to guard my heart . I'm going to be careful , I'm going to get accountability . I'm going to protect myself and what I look at what I do . I'm going to let my brothers ask me the hard questions , but a lot of leaders , they think they're above that , and when someone who's under their authority asks them , how are you doing , or I'm concerned about you , they bristle , they get prideful . It's that image again . Who are you to teach me ? But to have that heart that says I can learn from anyone , even my enemies and even those that are harsh toward me when they're correcting me . That's important .
Mark SpenceYou know Vance Havner . He said we treat sin like a cream puff . We need to treat it like a rattlesnake and every public failure we hear about is the result of a thousand private failings . Right , there's no such thing as a private sin . He went on to say that every private sin is an open spectacle in heaven . So if we just kind of tear that down just a little bit , but we break it down when we hear about these pastors that are falling into sexual sin or they haven't been faithful with the benevolent fund or whatever it may be , we hear about this one encounter where there's a confession about this situation . But , truth be told , they were not faithful for many thousand times over , starting with their mind .
Mark SpenceI forget who it was that said Chuck Swindoll , who said you sow a thought , you reap an action . You sow an action , you reap a habit . Sow a habit , reap a character . Sow a character , you reap a destiny . But it all starts with that initial thought and one of my top prayers that I pray is a scripture very simple Search me and shrine me and see if there be any wicked way in me and lead me in the way everlasting . That would be a wise prayer , to pray moment by moment , as you go throughout your day .
Emeal ZwayneAmen , yeah , so good , so , yeah . So let's get into that . I know you guys have stuff prepared . I'm excited to hear it . But yeah , how do we do that ? How do we cultivate a teachable heart , a teachable spirit where we'll gain that ? In the last podcast episode I believe it was I talked about how we need to be a people who aren't foolish and that we hate correction . Right , because we're stupid is what the Proverbs says . How do we avoid being stupid to receive correction or receive instruction that we might be wise in our latter years , as the Proverbs talk about , to grow in the Lord ?
Oscar NavarroI love what you said just a few minutes ago and I think we should circle back to it , which is the reality that we can learn something even from our enemies . Someone who has greatly impacted my faith written tons of books when he passed away . I read this article about this guy who had met him . And what happened was this guy went online and he wrote this article that was lambasting this pastor . And he ended up at a conference with him and he like raised his hand and he was like going to ask this gotcha question . And when he finally got the opportunity , the pastor goes .
Oscar NavarroYou know what ? That's a really good question . Would you help me understand your perspective ? Took the guy out to coffee and spent four hours with him and he said afterwards he learned more about the sin in his own heart than any potential failings in that man's theology . And I mean , this is somebody who wrote articles against him , who was ready to get him in a gotcha moment , but the disposition that he had from him was help me understand , not in a condescending way , but as sincerely you disagree with me . Help me know your perspective . And that same pastor wrote later that he recognized that there is no way he can properly disagree with someone unless he can articulate their side better than they could , and that's the reason why he wanted to learn from even his enemies to better understand them .
Emeal ZwayneWow man , that's yeah , that's so good . And I think a big hindrance to being teachable is the self-deception that convinces us that there's no way we could be wrong about a certain thing , and that gets harder and harder with something that we know well and that we're familiar with . I'm not talking about like facts . We know what you're talking about Augustine , yeah , augustine , how do you say his name ? Yeah , like Augustine . Yeah , I'm talking about like facts . I mean , I'm not talking about facts that are , like you know , objective , but maybe an approach that could go one way or the other . You know , we're convinced this is the right way , this is how it has to go , and so we shut off , and immediately , when someone begins to share their perspective , we immediately have a thousand reasons why not ? And we're ready to throw them out .
How wise would we be if we just stopped and said I'd really like to hear that .
Mark SpenceI'd really like and one way to recognize that is if you find yourself over-talking when they're still speaking .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , I know what you mean , if they're still speaking .
Mark SpenceThey're not done with their point . So how do you properly bring forth a response if they're not done talking ? So you need to be teachable and listen to this text Proverbs 9 , 10 . The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom , and the knowledge of the holy one is understanding . Ray , have you ever heard that verse ?
Ray Comfortyeah , um , just thinking about , um how to cultivate a teachable heart , thomas edison said was it something like ? We don't know a ?
Mark Spencemillion millionth percent of anything . Yeah , one million percent of anything . Yeah , we don't know one . Ninth of one percent . We do not know one million .
Ray ComfortI was gonna say say that mark , yeah , yeah , that's great and it's so true we don't know anything . When years that was funny years ago I heard someone say that they rolled their eyes and they were talking about their own pride . When someone said we're going to read john , chapter three in the bible , oh and I thought I could do that .
Ray ComfortYou know , 52 years of reading John chapter 3 , I know every verse . I know what it means . There's nothing I can know . And I have to pull myself back and say that's how to have an unteachable heart . And you've got to realize the Bible is the word of the living God , and so it's going to have stuff in it that's more complex than our brains . And so it's going to have stuff in it that's more complex than our brains . And so you just got to read John chapter 3 and say , okay , I'm going to look at this like it's the first time I've ever read it . And I've noticed , when I meditate on scripture and stay with it night after night after night , suddenly it's like that opens up . You think I've never , seen that before .
Ray ComfortIt's like searching for gold and rocks . You just have to keep breaking the rock open and suddenly there's the gold .
Mark SpenceWell , I remember I was at a conference one time a men's conference and David Hawking came out and he was told right before he went up on stage . He said listen , I'm sorry about the other speakers going into your time . We don't have a lot of time left , so please , if you could just kind of get right into it . And he went up there and he said listen . I was told that the other speakers went into my time and I don't have a lot of time to get into my commentary , so I'm just going to read the text . And that's what he did . He read the text instead of skipping the text and getting into the commentary , which is what he was asked to do by the host .
Ray ComfortHe read the scripture and then he went home and he went back and sat down . That's good , because I've been in churches where I've wanted to do that .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , you know , Ray , I actually have something that I call the John 3.16 syndrome . Yeah , you know you're talking about John 3 . But I use that because it's you know , all of us have memorized John 3.16 . We know it forwards , backwards , can recite it in our sleep , but we get that you know attitude with so much that we do know and it's just kind of like yeah , I know it , so we tune out on it , and that's such a tragedy . How can you not always be awed by John 3.16 ?
Ray ComfortYou've got to take the word so and look at it for a while .
Emeal ZwayneOh , right For .
Ray ComfortGod , so whoa yeah .
Emeal ZwayneBut it's true , right , but we again , familiarity . It breeds that contempt sometimes and even neglect . But I want to see what you guys think of this . I was just thinking about it in terms of how we can miss out on really being teachable because of , again , our image when it comes to counsel . There are people that will not get counseling , though they need it desperately because of how it'll make them look .
Mark SpenceYeah . Proverbs 12.1 . Yeah Right .
Emeal ZwayneYou know what will people think if I go to counseling ? They'll think I'm weak , they'll think I have problems , they'll think you know I'm dysfunctional and so they don't go and get counseling . And sometimes some people you know there may be some extenuating circumstances or maybe some legitimate ones , but but some I think a lot of times illegitimately will not even get counsel in their own church because they're worried to what the pastors might think of them , or we need to change that .
Oscar NavarroEspecially if they're leaders .
Emeal ZwayneYeah .
Oscar NavarroThere's this thing with leaders where it's like , well , now I'm in this leadership position and I can't get counsel . I can't be seen as dysfunctional , I can't be seen as having problems , because then people won't trust me , they won't have confidence in me . But that man , that couldn't be further from the truth , like that , that especially I mean . That's why it's so important for leaders to have men in their lives who are not impressed with them and who they can go to for counsel , for wisdom and for correction . I think , especially with leaders like you've , got that the Dunning-Kruger effect , which I know we've talked about in the podcast before . And for those of us who don't know what the Dunning-Kruger effect is , you have to imagine sort of like an X and Y scale where the horizontal version is your confidence and the vertical I'm sorry .
Mark SpenceHorizontal .
Oscar NavarroThe vertical one is your confidence , the horizontal one is your knowledge field . And so at the very beginning , if you discovering something new , you're high in confidence and low on knowledge . You're in the I know everything phase high in confidence , low in knowledge . But as you increase in knowledge you move from I know everything to this is kind of more complicated than I thought . You move further away from confidence and more into knowledge and you get to the realization that you know very little . And then the next step is like it's starting to make sense for you and on the very end of the scale you'd sort of still very low confidence . But high in knowledge is the realization that this field is complicated . But with that realization also comes humility and teachability . And so the Dunning-Kruger effect . Focus is essentially the less you know , the more arrogant you are in that field . The more you know , the more humble you are in that field . That's true .
Ray ComfortI can't help but think of Dunning-Kruger . There were two psychologists of the late 90s that discovered that 1990s . I can't help but think of it when I think of when I ran the 440 in 440 yards in school . I came in first . I think I mentioned this to you guys before and it was just great to hear the crowd of like eight people just roaring Eight people and the sheep , yeah , and the sheep .
Ray ComfortAnd then I went to inter-school sports and lined up with these guys and the gun went off and all I saw was dust and legs , because they're all so much bigger than me and I realized that really humbled me and I've never forgotten because I thought I could run fast . And that's what we think . We're more apt to think we're better at something than what we actually are .
Emeal ZwayneOh , it happened to me in that , you know , I grew up here but I was born in Lebanon , so I was four and a half when we came and I didn't speak any English when we got here . But after time I learned English and then it got to a point where I was good in it . But then we went back to visit Lebanon when I was 18 , but before almost 18 . Before that , though , my parents would always tell me how well I spoke Arabic still , and that most kids by that point have forgotten it because you know , you're in school and you're just always using English . But I remember we went to Lebanon and like constantly people were looking at me like oh , where do you ? What country do you live in ? Where are you from ? I'm like what do you mean ? Like you ?
Ray Comforthave an accent . You were speaking in Arabic . Yeah , that's because you're saying totally dude in the middle of it .
Emeal ZwayneWell , I'm talking with an accent , but I didn't realize I had one and I remember I was so humbled because I went down there . I'm like sure , I still speak arabic , you know . They're like where are you from ? Foreigner , basically you know . So , uh , yeah , I , I hear what you're saying about that aspect of getting humility mark . You keep looking at me , funny . What do you ?
Oscar Navarrowhenever I mentioned dunning kruger here thatuger here , it makes you laugh .
Mark SpenceBecause this is the whole idea of Go ahead no , I mean , we had lunch with Bruce Garner , ray's pastor and go back
even further . I remember talking to Chad Williams , our Navy SEAL friend , and I said you know , I don't think there's a woman in the world that can beat me up . I think this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard .
Oscar NavarroAnd he said he goes . Well , you know , I don't think there's a woman in the world that can beat me up . I think this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard .
Mark SpenceAnd he said he goes . Well , he goes . I understand , I mean , there's not a man in the world that I'm afraid of and I went . Yeah , I would have never said that , but anyways , I just think , I don't know . I just don't think that a woman can beat me up .
Oscar NavarroThere's one in this room that beats you up .
Mark SpenceI know who will be able to put me in a pretzel . But he said , Mark , you are so far removed from the ability of women with ultimate fighting and what they're able to do , and this is exactly what you're talking about with our vertical knowledge and our horizontal ability . Bless you , my child .
Ray ComfortI got beaten up by a woman in Santa Monica , mark , don't you remember that ?
Emeal ZwayneShe came out like a bat out of heaven .
Ray ComfortIf I get beaten up , she gets beaten up . But that makes sense . Yeah , okay , she bent down and beat me up , yeah .
Emeal ZwayneRay has a fear of a woman .
Ray ComfortNo man .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , mark , deborah would destroy you , deborah . By the way , she was a purple belt jujitsu champion in all of Britain . Right , deborah ? Did I get that right ? Yeah ?
Ray ComfortDeborah , how much down from the ?
Emeal Zwayneblack belt , is that Not much ?
Ray ComfortTwo you could just spray your belt with black paint , but she's beaten black belt guys oh really , yeah , she's taken Right .
Emeal ZwayneOr women , something like that , yeah , anyway , if you're looking for a jujitsu fighter , grab her , grab her At your shit .
Ray ComfortYeah , beat your pastor up yeah .
Emeal ZwayneSo anyway , but that's good , Mark . So you're learning , Mark .
Mark SpenceYeah , proverbs 12.1 , I said it earlier , it's whoever loves discipline loves knowledge . But whoever hates correction is stupid . That's what you said .
Ray ComfortStupid .
Oscar NavarroStupid . I think a good question to ask yourselves in any conversation , any situation is what don't I know ? If someone's trying to correct you about your behavior , about your disposition , it's like what don't I know about myself ? What am I not seeing in myself ? If you're having a conversation with somebody about a topic , to be able to go into that conversation , what don't I know ? I think to have a teachable heart is to look for opportunities to gain not just knowledge but wisdom , Because knowledge and wisdom are two very separate things .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , yeah , remember that saying Knowledge is a tomato is a fruit , wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad . That's right , yeah , you know , I know , I was just I forgot what I was going to say .
Ray ComfortWell , it's a good thing you prepared . Yeah , always be prepared , yeah go ahead , ray say something .
Ray ComfortYeah , here's something interesting . There's one word that's an absolute destroyer . It's a gatling gun , destroys teachability . And I notice it comes up a lot when I'm witnessing , where some guy will say , look , I'm totally convinced what you're saying , I'm believing what you're saying , but that's the gatling gun . That little word Absolutely destroys everything that came before it . And yet the Bible takes it and uses the word , but in such a wonderful way in Romans 6 , 23 . Wages of sin is death , but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ , our Lord . So , yeah , so when someone's counseling us , we've got to stay away from .
Emeal ZwayneBut yeah , yeah , listen , you know , be intent on , you know , be a wisdom collector . You know people collect things . I have a file . I have a file called quotes . I love , uh , our friend thomas pertell he calls it notable quotables . Right , he's , he's got a file and so I , I have that file and I grab quotes and I just put them in there . I love it . It's , it's such a . I mean , obviously , if my phone were to go on the fritz and just kind of die , I , I , the one of the things I'd be most disheartened about is losing that file .
Ray ComfortDon't you back them up .
Emeal ZwayneNo , it is what's wrong with you Go with the analogy you guys , I've lost all the time .
Ray ComfortNo , no , I've totally lost respect for you , it's back . I back everything up on my phone and my iPad just immediately that I write it .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , it's on the cloud .
Mark SpenceHave you thought about well , and if you take it too deep I mean , god collects dust right that we , we are made from dust and something that we would discard , get rid of and despise inside of our homes , inside of our lives , dust , god says no , like the most worst thing , most worst thing is possibly the worst , the mostest is the worstest thing .
Ray ComfortSlice or sauce . That's one of the hardest words to say in the English language . How do you pronounce it ? Worcestershire sauce .
Mark SpenceWe'll have to have Deborah correct us here afterward yeah , but God collects dust , he collects people . If you would , I'm glad you qualified that .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , and to be able to be the kind of person like I was talking about collecting quotes , but to collect wisdom .
Ray ComfortYou see , that's a book Collect what that book you've got that file Wisdom oh yeah . What you do is you do the quote and do a little commentary on it . People love it .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , 365-day devotional Easy wisdom , Ooh , easy wisdom , that's another Vance Abner quote how about Weesdom If ?
Mark SpenceHow about wheeze , wheeze-dom ? If you want knowledge , go to school . Yeah , if you want wisdom , get on your knees , van Savner .
Emeal ZwayneOh , that's good , yeah , so you know to be that kind of person who recognizes , right , we've talked about it . If someone had 1% of all the knowledge in the universe , right ?
Oscar NavarroI mean , imagine that no one has anywhere near that when would you put it In right confidence , brian , yeah , so practically speaking , you're a young man or woman and you spend the vast majority of your time in your living room , on your bed , on your phone , on your computer , on your iPad , you know , scrolling the internet , on YouTube , listening to podcasts and maybe you're listening to this one right now and you're like man . I lack wisdom . What do you do ? What are your next steps ? To surround yourself , to put yourself in a situation where you can grow , where you can become teachable ?
Emeal ZwayneYeah , well , we're living in a day and age where no one has any excuses because we have access to so much wisdom and knowledge . You know wisdom in terms of you know learning from others that have gone ahead of us , who have gained understanding through experience , through failure even and we have so much information that we can learn from that could help cultivate wisdom as well . And so I would say , be diligent in what you do with your time . You know , I was talking to a sister just yesterday and she was saying that she always wants to be learning , wants to be growing , that she feels like time is so precious and valuable to her that when she just is sitting around idle she wants to go crazy . So she's always wanting to learn and grow . So she's always listening to something , reading something , taking in understanding and information .
Emeal ZwayneAnd , oscar , you've been a great example of that . You're an avid reader and it comes out when you talk like that you have filled your heart and mind with truth and information , have processed it , have thought on it , have applied it to your life , and so it's so good to do that . Where do you spend your time ? How do you spend your time ? Are you feeding your soul and who are you surrounding yourself with ? You know you always want to surround yourself with men or women , depending on your gender that are going to speak intimately into your life on topics Proverbs 13 , 20, .
Mark SpenceWalk with the wise and become wise , for a companion of fools suffers harm . Yeah , surround yourself with people that are wiser than you . Yeah , oscar's done that here .
Emeal ZwayneWhy do you think he's so wise ?
Oscar NavarroOne for three he hangs out with us .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , but what do you guys say to the person who says , look , I've asked people to , to disciple me and to to speak into my life and they just seem so busy because , you know , was it you , oscar , I think , who shared on the program where you said that , um , you know , when they ask , when they ask older people , the data , peer research yeah . What young people need . They say they need a mentor .
Oscar NavarroThey need to speak into life .
Emeal ZwayneYoung people agreed , and then they went back to the older people .
Oscar NavarroThey said would you be interested in mentoring a younger person ? And they said no .
Emeal ZwayneEven though they're the ones that recognize that's what's needed .
Oscar NavarroSo there's a gap . There's a gap between people who recognize there is a need for discipleship , people who want discipleship and people who are willing to disciple . I didn't mean to interrupt , no , I didn't mean to interrupt . No , no , go ahead . I would say it's a really good question . I think the Wisdom Pyramid
. Brett McCracken wrote a book . I know I've mentioned it a few times now . It's a really good book . It's a short read . I want to say it's like 200 pages long .
Ray ComfortMaybe a little bit more . Well , do it if you want to say it .
Oscar NavarroOkay , I'll just the length , it's under 300 pages for sure , you guys are crazy .
Oscar NavarroAnyways , it's called the wisdom pyramid , and if you could imagine , we've all seen like the food pyramid , where it's like all the healthy food is at the bottom of the pyramid , it's the thickest part . What you should eat most of All of the bad food , the high fructose corn syrup and sugar , is the top of the pyramid , what you should be eating least of . And so in his book , Wisdom Pyramid , he goes through the reality that we have this pyramid in our lives too , and unfortunately we've inverted it . We get most of our wisdom from the worst part of the pyramid and lose sight of the best part . And so the top of the pyramid , he says , is social media , it's the Twitter , it's X , it's YouTube , it's Facebook , it's Instagram , and then next is the internet . We want to know something , we go to Google and we research it , and then after that it's books , and then after that , nature and beauty , then the church , and the very bottom is the Bible . And so his point in wisdom pyramid- .
Ray ComfortOh , after that it's the podcast . The podcast , clearly .
Oscar NavarroBut his point is in the wisdom pyramid is that we need to reorient our lives so that where we seek , where we spend our most time and seek wisdom is first and foremost the Bible , god's word , our daily bread , then through the local church and church tradition , then through nature and beauty and God's creation , then books , then internet , then social media . So , to answer your question , maybe you don't have the opportunity for a one-to-one mentor . You can still be intentional about surrounding your time with people who are further in life than you and are in places that you wanna be . Find godly men in your lives or women in your lives , and maybe they don't have the time to disciple you , but I bet they have time to just get a cup of coffee . Maybe it's not a full-blown discipleship program , doesn't matter . Do what you can to surround yourself with people who you can glean from . And if you can't listen , if you can't be around people , you can to surround yourself with people who you can glean from .
Mark SpenceAnd if you can't listen , if you can't be around people , you can be around people who wrote books . Yeah Right , Oscar had mentioned a book earlier in the episode here how People Change . I immediately went on and purchased it right when he was done talking about it , because it stirred curiosity and interest inside of me . So who knows what your situation and circumstance is ? Maybe there is legitimately nobody inside your life that can disciple you . We'll be discipled by books . Books are a great way .
Emeal ZwayneYeah , I mean , I often tell people I was telling a couple last night I said when you read a book , you have a counselor in your house if it's a good , solid , sound book . And the thing is , is that that counselor , first of all , isn't charging you a bunch of money and you don't have to worry about their time and you don't have to worry about missing what they said , because it's right there , you can reread it , you can quote it , you can highlight it , you can memorize it . So , yeah , books are a great source . You're taking someone who is wise and who put in the heart and effort and energy to put their words in permanent print . That's what we have in God's Word . It's written right and we're getting life-changing truth that's divine and inspired . Obviously , people's writings aren't that , but there's truth to be gleaned from them and so you know reading's really good .
Ray ComfortI think what Jesus said unless you become a little child , you'll not enter the kingdom of God One . What are you looking at ? No , I was going to agree with you . Finally , one virtue of a child is that they've got curiosity , absolute curiosity , want to know everything . I remember one of your daughters , julia , when we sat down and watched a movie . She was about six Old , black and white movie . She asked 176 questions , didn't even make it through the movie . But she has just grown in knowledge , because that's what she's like . She's just thirsting for truth . And that's how we should be when we read Scripture just thirsting for truth . And one thing that helps me is reading the Amplified Bible . You know , I've often mentioned it , the what the Amplified Bible ? Louder Amplified Bible . When Sue and I read it it keeps the neighbors awake because it's so loud .
Ray ComfortThat's a stupid joke , but yeah , it gives the original Greek and opens it up more , and you can read John 3.16 from a different perspective . And that's one key to being teachable is realizing you can take things from different perspectives . Yeah , that's good .
Emeal ZwayneAnd just to cry out to the Lord Lord , give me a teachable heart .
Emeal ZwayneOh , yes , that too , yeah , you know that kind of little kind of thing . But I've often said that you know . We often say you know that I guess all I can do is pray . The most we can do is pray . The first thing we should do is pray . You cry out to the Lord and just Lord , give me a teachable heart , deal with me , you know , and surround me with people and the kinds of resources that are going to give me understanding . And God honors that he really does . And you'll come to realize that pride is just a destroyer . It does nothing but hinder you . It does nothing but alienate people from you . Because who wants to be around a prideful , stupid person , scripturally speaking , because they hate instruction ? Correction , they're stupid . No one wants to be around someone like that . So you do alienate people , but if you show you have a teachable spirit , you might be surprised how many more of those people you thought didn't want to hang out with you actually do and would if you just have that heart .
Ray ComfortJust like putting a word here . If you want to grow in knowledge and things of God , listen to this podcast right from the beginning , because , guys , I have learned a lot from you three , just so much .
Emeal ZwayneWow . Since we've done this podcast . Likewise , I thought about it distinctly recently . I thought , man , I really grow personally through the podcast , through hearing the wisdom that you guys have to share . No no you guys are more wise than me . I was talking about the cameraman . Oh , you guys are more wise than me . I was talking about the cameraman . Oh , you guys thought I was talking about you , but no , you know , it's really I have , because it's new , fresh insight and information .
Ray ComfortAnd people can always be confident that we have prepared for one of these .
Mark SpenceI don't know for somebody who did zero prep for this .
Ray ComfortYou've managed that pretty well . I think you should stop the prep . Yeah , god's great , get the prep easy .
Emeal ZwayneBut you know also I'd say a takeaway from this too it's not just that we've , you know , we've learned from each other , but what has facilitated learning from each other , it's this fellowship . Right , we talk about it all the time . This is just this isn't a job .
Emeal ZwayneWe're not working here . We're genuinely fellowshipping and because of that we've all grown and friends . That's what
can happen . That's a part of having a teachable spirit is when you're willing to get into fellowship , and I often talk about this . That men love to hang out with other men , but that's all they do just hang out and talk about sports and silly , stupid carnal things . No , make it count . Talk about the Lord , get open about your lives , encourage each other , pray for each other . It will change your life in a big way . Amen , all right , all right , all right , all right Thank you for joining us .
Emeal ZwayneThat's what you've learned , that's what you've grown in ridiculousness , don't forget , friends . 50 years of open air preaching everything I've learned the Living Waters mug , the Evidence Study Bible at livingwaterscom . And hey , hey , hey . Don't forget Joyful Mothers , for mothers with deep voices .
Ray ComfortSilly , check it out , it's for you too , ladies .
Emeal ZwayneBut yeah , my beautiful wife Rachel's Instagram account and also Facebook and all that good stuff . So thank you for joining us , friends . We'll see you next time on the Living Waters Podcast , where we have no idea what we're doing , especially me today .