Christian Response to Political Violence

Emeal Zwayne 1:05

how do you should we do this in the flesh ? Alexander oh , phone's on , phone's on . Father , we're so grateful for your mercies that are new every morning . We pray that you would help us today to be given strength beyond what we can generate in ourselves . We pray for divine strength to honor you , lord , and to be a blessing to everyone listening . So direct it all . Help me with my headache to persevere through it . Take it away , lord . I pray in Jesus' name .

Oscar Navarro 1:35

Amen , same prayer every morning .

Emeal Zwayne 1:43

Rachel's prayer every morning . I'm married to a headache . Save it , Lord . Take away easy my headache .

Ray Comfort 1:49

You've got to save that one Mark , All right . A Christian response to violence Political violence In politics .

Emeal Zwayne 1:58

It doesn't say oh .

Mark Spence 1:59

Yeah , that's right In politics , dad . Yeah , yeah , that's right .

Emeal Zwayne 2:03

Yeah , we don't know the number yet because , oh wait , mark , I don't know the number yet because , oh wait , mark's not supposed to have a number .

Mark Spence 2:08

That's what we had .

Emeal Zwayne 2:10

Well , it might mix them up , because it's going to be different .

Oscar Navarro 2:13

Come on , Mark .

Emeal Zwayne 2:14

Yeah , let's just say no number for this one .

Ray Comfort 2:16

Should we do it ?

Emeal Zwayne 2:16

again . Can you just take the number off ?

Ray Comfort 2:18

Yeah , do you want me to say .

Emeal Zwayne 2:19

Yeah yeah , we'll do it again Say no number , just say no number . Hold on , guys , stand by a second guys , Okay , I buy and I stand . No number . I buy and I stand , Do it Hello hello , I love you .

Oscar Navarro 2:46

Ray grabbed my earlobe in the middle of a prayer yesterday . Hello , hello , hello . You know that Ray grabbed my earlobe in the middle of a prayer yesterday Ain't no number .

Ray Comfort 2:54

Christian response to violence and politics .

Emeal Zwayne 2:58

Ain't got no number .

Ray Comfort 2:59

It's a song .

Oscar Navarro 3:00

Ain't got no number .

Emeal Zwayne 3:03

Ain't got no number baby . Ain't got no number baby , no number baby .

Mark Spence 3:08

I asked for her number and she said Second verse same as the first , A little bit louder and a little bit worse .

Emeal Zwayne 3:21

Welcome , Eddie , oh boy .

Ray Comfort 3:29

Eddie is incorporated .

Oscar Navarro 3:32

Yeah , it's warm in here . It is warm .

Ray Comfort 3:36

It's warm .

Mark Spence 3:37

Can we have that ?

Ray Comfort 3:38

Do you know how to do it ?

Mark Spence 3:39

Maybe we could turn on the air .

Emeal Zwayne 3:43

Just when I'm loving the temperature , you guys are going to destroy my life .

Oscar Navarro 3:46

No , it's going to get warmer . These lights are not usually that bright . I don't care what you all guys are going to destroy my life . No , it's going to get warmer . These lights are not usually that bright .

Emeal Zwayne 3:50

I don't care what you all say .

Ray Comfort 3:52

It's easier to light your earrings .

Mark Spence 3:55

Is the lighting change intentional because of the change in the oh ?

Emeal Zwayne 3:59

that's a good question . Oh , I guess so .

Mark Spence 4:02

Because this is brighter and that's lighter . I don't know about that .

Ray Comfort 4:06

That's a song too , man . Oh , we got rid of those lights .

Mark Spence 4:10

That's brighter Okay .

Emeal Zwayne 4:12

That's lighter .

Oscar Navarro 4:16

We should definitely turn on the air conditioning more you like the picture . Did you notice that that green thing is flashing now ?

Emeal Zwayne 4:25

It's green . What about the green door ?

Ray Comfort 4:27

Don't tell me what to do , Okay .

Emeal Zwayne 4:28

Tony Ready .

Ray Comfort 4:33

We should have a green door at the ministry .

Mark Spence 4:36

What color ?

Ray Comfort 4:36

Green .

Mark Spence 4:37

Should we have a meeting about that ?

Oscar Navarro 4:38

Yes , let's meet about it . What shade of green .

Mark Spence 4:42

Periwinkle Purple .

Oscar Navarro 4:44

Kelly green Three .

Emeal Zwayne 4:48

In three two , one Don't tell me , don't tell me . Kelly Green , don't tell me , don't tell me .

Mark Spence 4:57

Don't tell me , oh , what to do . What to do ?

Ray Comfort 5:02

I was waiting . I never thought you'd make that public .

Emeal Zwayne 5:04

I actually said that at church on Sunday I was waiting for you to jump in Ray .

Ray Comfort 5:07

I didn't ?

Mark Spence 5:08

You said what Mark At the very end , during the benediction , the worship pastor said have a blessed week . I said don't tell me what to do .

Emeal Zwayne 5:18

The guy around me laughed oh Ray , this goes back decades .

Ray Comfort 5:21

I think it certainly does .

Emeal Zwayne 5:23

I don't even know where it originated . Yeah , I don't know where it came from . I when it originated . Yeah , I don't know where it came from . I think I just started singing the song and then we just threw that in . Maybe it's from the whole thing that I talk about , about how you'll hear these artists sing and they'll be singing in perfect American accent , and then they'll stop singing and they'll have a totally different accent English English or Italian accent .

Ray Comfort 5:44

Yeah , don't tell me about that .

Emeal Zwayne 5:46

Yeah , what was the song that I used to do all the time ? You ain't nothing but a hound dog . Give me more reverberation , please .

Oscar Navarro 5:56

You ain't nothing but a hound dog . I told you turn it up ? Do you ever consider that you gave yourself your ?

Emeal Zwayne 6:04

headache . Oh , I have a headache today , friends . So the Arab cherub may not be himself .

Ray Comfort 6:09

Your wife has a headache too .

Emeal Zwayne 6:10

Yeah , constant and permanent headache . Yeah , ray , why do you change your voice when you sing ? What are you talking about ?

Ray Comfort 6:20

Ray , this is a confrontational moment right now . Ray , we're going to deal with this . I'm not into confrontationalism Right now . You change your voice when you sing Confrontationalism Not into confrontationalism . Right now . You change your voice when you sing .

Emeal Zwayne 6:29

Confrontationalism . I can't sing , no , but seriously , were any of you guys ever thrown off by artists ? You listened to all the time as kids and then they started like they were doing an interview and you're like what , boy George has an accent , yeah , you ever do that Very normal .

Mark Spence 6:41

Those in London , yeah , it seems like they're all American until they speak , normal . You know , I had a lady in front of me , no , a guy , excuse me , a guy in front of me in church , turn around and say don't sing . And then the girl next to me said Mark , I love your voice . And it was at that point that I realized oh , I'm tone deaf , mark .

Emeal Zwayne 7:02

That person really said don't sing . Yeah , I can see that it had to be real .

Mark Spence 7:07

Have you ever heard me sing ?

Emeal Zwayne 7:08

What was your pastor's name ?

Mark Spence 7:10

Neither has anybody else .

Emeal Zwayne 7:11

No , seriously .

Ray Comfort 7:12

Sue was the only one that's heard me sing .

Emeal Zwayne 7:14

No what .

Ray Comfort 7:16

Well , I whistle in church , yeah you're a great whistler . No , someone says I'm a great whistler .

Emeal Zwayne 7:24

I thought I'm never going to do they're going to put you in dealing with pride after that . Yes , mark , why did that happen ?

Mark Spence 7:33

Because I don't know how to sing .

Emeal Zwayne 7:34

Oh , sing for us . That's what I was going to say . I can't Three , two , one .

Mark Spence 7:37

I can't even get the words correct . I can do all things . It makes my wife laugh . You combine so many different songs together .

Oscar Navarro 7:49

I songs together . I do that too . Is that a genetic thing , like what ? I don't know what it is . It'll be like a hymnal . I've been singing for 10 years and then we're singing it and I get the words wrong .

Mark Spence 7:53

Have you , have you seen Tim Hawkins do a standup where he gets words wrong and then finally tells us that's actually not the words . The correct words are he's hilarious , crazy , yeah .

Emeal Zwayne 8:02

And to think of the songs , I thought said one thing and then you end up learning later . Yeah , but I'm the same way too . Like , obviously you know I love memorizing things , but when it comes to songs , I can hardly remember lyrics .

Ray Comfort 8:15

I don't know what it is my son , oldest son , I think it was him . We had a song , a very famous song in the 80s Our God Reigns . Do you remember that ?

Emeal Zwayne 8:23

Our .

Ray Comfort 8:23

God Reigns , yeah , our God Re rain , yeah , how God rains . I heard him singing . I've got brains . He was only a little kid .

Mark Spence 8:29

Ray's got no brains . About seven years old at the time . You did not , he did yeah .

Ray Comfort 8:34

Jacob .

Oscar Navarro 8:35

Yeah , he was singing .

Ray Comfort 8:36

I've got brains . It makes more sense than how God rains to a kid who's got brains .

Emeal Zwayne 8:43

That's really good .

Mark Spence 8:45

Purple rain what ?

Emeal Zwayne 8:47

I'm going to hit Jacob up about that . All right , friends Boy , you guys are making my headache worse . All right , yes .

Oscar Navarro 8:54

Yes , thank you , lord . Instrument of the enemy .

Emeal Zwayne 8:59

All right friends . Time for a cool , classy comment . This is from Isaiah Donan . Hi guys , my name is Isaiah and I'm a new listener to the podcast . I love your deep discussions and easy jokes . That's why he's reading it . God bless you , Isaiah . I'm 12 years old .

Oscar Navarro 9:19

Oh , there you are . You'll soon learn .

Emeal Zwayne 9:20

And love raised down to earth . Witnessing videos on YouTube .

Ray Comfort 9:26

Oh , that's a good kid , he's a really good kid .

Emeal Zwayne 9:29

I'd absolutely love it if you would come tour my farm in Ontario , Canada . Ps for Ray , I have chickens .

Oscar Navarro 9:38

He knows the way to your heart oh how cool , Ray .

Emeal Zwayne 9:41

seriously , I would love to see you cuddle with chickens . He's done it .

Ray Comfort 9:44

Cuddle Like a thousand chickens . I thought you said cut all the chickens , Cuddle with chickens .

Emeal Zwayne 9:51

Yeah they don't cuddle . Yeah , I'm sure you can make it work somehow . Ray , we're going to send you to Ontario , canada , to a chicken farm .

Mark Spence 10:03

I could see myself pulling up to Ray's house and finding him in his chicken coop just laying there doing snow angels . You know , here's a comment that came in from Jenalyn . I love Ray and Mark , but what's up with the other two ?

Emeal Zwayne 10:12

guys .

Oscar Navarro 10:12

Finally an honest one .

Emeal Zwayne 10:14

We have another comment here to read , along with a present Greetings from Alaska

Response to Political Violence

Emeal Zwayne 10:20

. I've recently begun listening to the Living Waters podcast and greatly appreciate each of your biblical insights and perspectives . Ray , you are so down to earth and make it simple . Mark , you share things from very . What Mark ? You share things from very , uh , you , but what Mark ? You share things from English perspectives I would never have viewed things from easy .

Emeal Zwayne 10:37

You are funny and yet very practical , Oscar . I love your depth and connect with you the most . You recently did an episode 269 regarding honoring elders , and we're talking about chocolate . So I decided to honor my elders haha , wink , wink and send you guys some chocolate from a local chocolate factory here in Anchorage called Alaska Wildberry Products . You guys are a blessing , as I listen almost every day on my way to work and now , having just attended Ambassador's Academy in June yeah , I feel even more connected to you guys and your ministry .

Emeal Zwayne 11:07

It was such a blessing to meet all four of you and I was blessed even more to have John Harris , head of Living Waters Europe , as my group leader at the Academy . I've recommended your podcast to so many people and I still have to go back and listen to all the ones I've missed so far . As you enjoyed the treats I've sent , remember to thank the Lord that he gave us the ability to taste and see that the Lord is good . Thank you all at Living Waters Ministry . Keep honoring the Lord in all you do . Brian Lane and family from Alaska .

Emeal Zwayne 11:35

Nice .

Mark Spence 11:35

Chocolates At least we know they're not melted .

Ray Comfort 11:37

I'm amazed that so many people say I'm down to earth . I interviewed a guy that was seven feet .

Emeal Zwayne 11:43

Oh yeah , seven feet tall . Yeah , just made his legs . And what did I say in my text to you ray about that ? I remember he looked seven feet . No , no , that's right . Oh , I said , oh , that's that really well-known uh dwarf that hangs around uh , huntington beach .

Oscar Navarro 11:58

One foot four , with the rain next to him he was huge .

Ray Comfort 12:00

You are one of the most down-to-earth people .

Emeal Zwayne 12:01

That's what I know people say very , very , damn , yeah , so anyway , thank you so much , brian Lane . It was a blessing to have you at the Academy and I am going to enjoy this Did you say they are chocolates ?

Ray Comfort 12:14

Yeah , they are chocolates .

Emeal Zwayne 12:15

Yeah , wildberry chocolates .

Oscar Navarro 12:18

But it's not a carnivore . You can't eat those . I'm not a carnivore . No , he's not .

Ray Comfort 12:23

Life is like a box of chickens .

Oscar Navarro 12:26

Go on .

Emeal Zwayne 12:27

A box of chickens . Yeah , wouldn't that be funny to have like an assorted , a box of assorted chicken pieces .

Mark Spence 12:31

Well , because you really don't know what you're going to get , right , I mean , is it possible to get him ? You get a rooster in .

Ray Comfort 12:37

No , you're careful not to get roosters . How do you know ? They've got a way of figuring it out Mark birds and bees . Someone can figure it out that end .

Emeal Zwayne 12:46

Yeah , let's teach Mark some lessons . All right , friends , Time for another revolutionary , radically revolutionary resource . This podcast is brought to you by Count your Blessings and Stop Stressing . Devotional by Ray . I've mentioned it a few times recently because it's a good one . I just gave away six copies , Ray to friends .

Oscar Navarro 13:03

That's very kind of you .

Emeal Zwayne 13:04

Yeah , a devotion like this is needed , friends . Imagine every day being reminded not to stress . What are you doing , ray ?

Ray Comfort 13:12

Turning my notes up the right way . Can I do anything with that ?

Emeal Zwayne 13:16

No , everything will be highlighted . All right , friends , time to jump into the topic of the day . Today we're talking about a Christian response to violence in politics . Well , guys , look , we all remember where we were on September 11th . I remember the moment and we've talked about it on the podcast before when I got the call , and I'm sure we all remember where we were when something that's going to be , I think , an iconic historical moment in the United States happened , and that is the attempted assassination on President Trump .

Ray Comfort 13:54

God was trying to get the president's ear . Oh boy .

Emeal Zwayne 13:58

That was a shocker . I remember exactly where I was and what I was doing . I was away on a getaway with some friends and I got a call from Ray . I did my normal yep right , right , yep , yep , yep , right , and I hear a very serious voice on the other end .

Ray Comfort 14:17

I was just about to cry A very emotional .

Emeal Zwayne 14:18

Ray , and you gave me the news . It was just again one of those shocking moments . Guys , same thing with you . You remember where you were and how you wound up ?

Ray Comfort 14:28

Yeah , but something like that could ever stop . Hey , yep right , yep right .

Emeal Zwayne 14:31

Yeah , that's one of the very few things . Well then , you call me again later about something else , and I'm like hello and you're like what ?

Ray Comfort 14:37

No , yep right .

Emeal Zwayne 14:46

I'm like well , I don't remember what you were doing , where you were . I think it's important for us to hit on big events like this and to try to help our brothers and sisters listening to you know figure out hey , how do we as Christians respond , and what's the biblical worldview on this ?

Mark Spence 15:01

So where were we at with the attempted assassination yesterday ? Yeah , and any thoughts ? I was driving along driving home from from the beach , celebrating my wife's birthday , and we have a text thread called the Twelve and somebody inside the Twelve had mentioned that there was an attempted assassination . I remember my jaw just hitting the ground . Yeah Right , the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God and whatever this individual had intended , we definitely see God's hand in it . I don't know if you guys have gone back and forth . I went back and forth several times watching the timing of the turning of the head and I could not believe how fast it was . We tried to time it on a stopwatch and it's not even possible . It's not possible to hit , stop and start , start and stop quick enough . He was just a moment . It's really . I think it's the closest I've ever seen to the twinkling of an eye , right , the twinkling of an eye , because he was that close to eternity . So I was driving along with my family and there was just a moment of silence and gasps .

Ray Comfort 16:10

Yeah , when it hit yeah , twinkling of an eye is a 500th of a second .

Emeal Zwayne 16:14

I learned that many years really yeah , I could not believe um how , if he had not turned his head at that exact , I mean exact and it was like , I mean it was just like it would have hit his head , would that exact ?

Emeal Zwayne 16:29

I mean exact , and it was like I mean it was just like it would have hit his head , would have gone right into his temple . I mean I don't know what to say . I mean I've seen providence at different moments . This would have to be one of the most extreme evidences of providence . I would say so yeah , yeah , I mean I want to get more into it . But , oscar , I'd love to hear your thoughts and yeah , I was .

Oscar Navarro 16:52

Uh , I didn't find out about it until that night . Um , I tried not to be on my phone on the weekends , try to unplug and just kind of be present in the moment . So truly it was like you know we're . We're kind of the nights winding down and I pop on my phone to . I have it like a news feed system called feedly , where it , instead of just scrolling social media for news or popping on websites , it delivers like news that I have decided is is helpful towards me , and one of the first ones up there was the attempted assassination which there was the whole day .

Ray Comfort 17:24

Yeah , I had no idea Lincoln was shot . Did you know wait what ? Yeah , boiler alert , I haven't seen that movie yet . So yeah , I didn't find out . Yeah , I had no idea .

Emeal Zwayne 17:29

You know , Lincoln was shot dead . Did you know ?

Oscar Navarro 17:29

that . Wait , what Spoiler alert . I didn't hear Oscar . I haven't seen that movie yet . So yeah , I didn't find out until probably six or seven o'clock at night .

Ray Comfort 17:35

Wow .

Oscar Navarro 17:41

And when I first saw it to be honest with you , because of the way I process information I thought it was going to be a conspiracy theory , an exaggeration , and so the first thing I did was I went and watched the video and it was , like you guys , just unbelievable Chilling , chilling . And at that point they already had the image . Have you guys seen the image where you see the bullet .

Emeal Zwayne 17:59

Isn't that ?

Ray Comfort 18:00

crazy . It actually isn't the bullet , it's the vapor trail .

Oscar Navarro 18:03

That okay , was it .

Ray Comfort 18:04

Yeah , I heard a guy , an expert , and he said the bullet was too quick . But that's the vapor trail behind a plane . Wow , Isn't that insane .

Oscar Navarro 18:12

So I mean , yeah , I was . I was absolutely in shock . I mean your heart just hits the ground and how history in this present moment could radically change with the twinkle of an eye .

Ray Comfort 18:27

So if he had been blown up in front of the whole world , were there been riots across America ?

Emeal Zwayne 18:33

Well , there was somewhere where someone said I mean the caption was we were centimeters away from civil war is what someone said , and I don't know if that would have eventuated .

Ray Comfort 18:45

I'm just thinking of my emotions . If I'd seen something like that , how I'd feel ? I think I'd be angry , and I'm not an angry person , yeah , yeah .

Emeal Zwayne 18:52

And you could just imagine , yeah , human sentiment in a moment like that , especially with how just so charged with vitriol this whole campaign has been . You know , for president , all the things that have happened . So , yeah , you think about what could have been . I heard someone say that , with JFK , had the driver of the car not slowed down or stopped after the first shot , that JFK may have lived . So you look at those things and you try to figure out . God , what was this about ? Because that turn , at that exact same second . First of all , you realize , this kid , who was 20 years old 20 years old , I mean he must have been practicing a lot or something , because he was . I mean it was the turn that saved Trump , had he not ? He was right on his target . You know Well , it's also windy .

Oscar Navarro 19:45

Did you notice the flag ? That was the next thing I noticed is is how windy it was . In one of the images where he's pumping his fist , the flag is waving oh yeah , and that had to play a role well , you know they .

Emeal Zwayne 19:55

They said that because you know that shooter was spotted before he shot and 30 minutes there's videos of people saying 30 minutes , 30 minutes and there's a 26 .

Ray Comfort 20:04

they took a photo and there's 26 minutes after the photo that he was shot . Oh , whoa , he shows the incompetence .

Emeal Zwayne 20:10

I mean you heard people yelling out a little bit before he shot . That I saw . So you know he was spotted and someone said they saw him . I can't remember the name of the instrument , but it's some instrument that measures for wind or whatever , because you know snipers , they account for that , they account for wind and the effect it'll have . It determines where they aim .

Ray Comfort 20:29

And breathing when you pull the trigger .

Emeal Zwayne 20:30

Yeah , there's all kinds of things to it . So yeah , ray , where were you when you found out ?

Ray Comfort 20:36

Well , I was just finishing a 40-day fast . I was just getting up off the dirt . No , I was watching TV and you just saw it on the news .

Emeal Zwayne 20:43

It was pretty spiritual . Yeah , on the news . Yeah , yeah , was it live when you saw ?

Ray Comfort 20:46

it . No , I saw all the officers sorry , the secret service on top of him and then they rolled it back to when he was shot .

Emeal Zwayne 20:59

Because that's what I wanted to see immediately , I said come on give us what happened , yeah , and that's when I just was filled with emotion . Quite amazing , yeah . So , guys , I want to kind of examine this together , and the title of the podcast episode today is A Christian Response to Violence in Politics . So I think a good place for us to start would be just to talk about politics in general . I think we've done a podcast on that a while back , but I think that— I like Bernie Sanders .

Oscar Navarro 21:25

I'm with her .

Emeal Zwayne 21:27

Bernie .

Ray Comfort 21:29

So I think , the reason I said that is something

Christian Engagement in Politics

Ray Comfort 21:32

. Four guys talking about politics how's this going to go ?

Emeal Zwayne 21:35

Yeah , we'll figure our way through here as we go , but you know , there are a lot of believers , I think , or some believers at the very least , that do have this perspective that Christians should have nothing to do with politics in general , and I've seen comments on different platforms where this is being discussed and other sorts of things like hey , you guys shouldn't even be dabbling with this , christians should have nothing to do with that . So what would you guys say is and Oscar , I'll start with you a good Christian worldview when it comes to politics and believers .

Oscar Navarro 22:09

Yeah , well , I'll start by responding to that statement that we should have nothing to do with politics . I just don't see that in the scriptures or throughout church history . I think God's calling to his people in the Old Testament you know , you think about . I think a prime example is the Old Testament after they were taken to Babylon , right , they're living in a nation that is clearly not a Christian nation . They are being ruled over by leaders that are clearly not Christian , and yet God's call to his people in Babylon was to do good by the city , to participate in the public square , and we see them serve in the public square . We see over and over again in the Old Testament where they serve in political roles as cupbearers , which isn't just literally being a cupbearer , you are also an advisor to the king . And so throughout the Old Testament and into the new , we see a dynamic interaction between God's people and the nation in which they lived , whether that was the nation of Israel or some other nation .

Oscar Navarro 23:22

And so to have a complete division in regards to our faith and politics . I just I don't see a reasonable argument in the scriptures for that . On the other hand , I do believe that we need to be careful about how much hope and identity we put in politics , because we can vary . I think if you stand up and you say to anybody hey , our , our hope needs to be in the Prince of Peace and not in policies and politicians . Most people in America Christians , are going to go yep amen , yep amen . But on a practical level , on a day-to-day basis , we often find our identity , our hope , our desire for the future bent up in policies and politicians , when we have to remember that we are not citizens of this world , but another one .

Mark Spence 24:12

And we see in the Old Testament right , there is a scriptural basis for confronting those in power . We see this with Nathan confronting King David in 2 Samuel , chapter 12 , right , that righteousness was not reigning . King David went off track . King David tried to get away with something and Nathan confronted him . Right . We have another example in 1 Kings , chapter 21 , with Elijah confronting Ahab . These speak of examples of the common person or an average person or somebody not in politics , trying to speak up on behalf of the people or even , in this case , on behalf of God .

Ray Comfort 24:48

And John the Baptist with Herod . Yes , very good the king .

Emeal Zwayne 24:52

That's good , oscar . I'm really glad you made that dichotomy between what Christians will sometimes say and how things bear out practically , because you're right . I mean , who's going to say , oh no , we put our hope in , but at the end of the day , how is that being lived out ? We see that in a lot of different ways in our lives as believers . You know , we talk about trusting the Lord and then we see ourselves going to our various sort of earthly means to try to satisfy things in our lives versus truly demonstrating trust in the Lord , which means in a lot of cases , I'm going to still do what's right , despite what , I'm worried the outcome is going to be , and so it's good to recognize that .

Emeal Zwayne 25:31

And , ray , I mean on this note , we talked about Christians serving in politics , like we see the example , for example , with Daniel right and Babylon and Shadrach , meshach and Abednego , or Hananiah , mishach and Azariah . I mean they were officials within Nebuchadnezzar's court . You know , daniel was obviously highly elevated . We see it with Joseph in Egypt , which obviously and again I'm saying this to highlight the fact these were pagan nations that did not love and know and fear God , and yet you have servants of God , true servants of God , that were involved there . So what do you say to that Ray ?

Ray Comfort 26:09

We're living in a pagan nation , in a sense , a nation that's fallen away from righteousness , and we're called to be salt and light and there's a balance . Salt preserves , salt has taste , and that's what we try to do preserve righteousness within the nation . It's not kind of working . We've fallen away because we haven't held up the light at the same time . It's got to be a balance . The gospel has to go hand in hand . What America's done may I mention it before is we're no different from Israel of the Old Testament when they turned away from God's law and got into idolatry , and that opens the door to sexual sin . And that's exactly what's happened in America .

Ray Comfort 26:41

There's been a concerted effort among atheists , particularly over the last 20 , 30 years , to rid the country of the moral law , and what that does is allows a country to become idolatrous . You get your own image of God . Then you become blasphemous of the true God . You don't set aside one day to rest , you don't honor parents , you lie , kill , steal and even covet . I think I've got a quote here . If I can find it from what's happening with the nation regarding covetousness . I can find it from what's happening with the nation regarding covetousness . I can't find it , but it's saying that they're making gambling accessible to families by changing it away from gambling to gaming , and so everyone can gamble now on their phones .

Ray Comfort 27:20

And it's back in 1937 , the church stood up as salt and said you cannot do this . It destroys a society and we're in a tidal wave of lawlessness and the only answer is to bring Moses down from the mountain with fiery eyes . And that's what the church needs to do . That's what the men of God need to do is preach righteousness in the great congregation , to uphold God's law and say God holds every person accountable . And the fruit of salvation when someone is brought from that law as a schoolmaster to Christ , is that we become lawful . We worship the true God , we don't blaspheme his name , we set aside a day to rest , we honor our mom and dad and we don't , like he'll , steal or gamble . We don't need to , because God's our source of joy .

Emeal Zwayne 28:05

Mark , wouldn't you say that sometimes we've seen the outcome of Christians not being involved in politics in terms of outcomes of votes and then positions that could have possibly been filled by godly people not being so ?

Mark Spence 28:20

Yeah , I don't remember what election this applied to , but there's plenty of examples where people have lost elections by like one or two votes and there are certain people that will say you know , what do I do ? How far does my vote actually go ? What should I do ? And I think that we should approach this with well , I'm going to do all that I personally can do . Leave the results to God .

God's Sovereignty in Politics

Mark Spence 28:43

I think we can build somewhat of a case from a text we see from the book of Jeremiah how we are to work for the common good of a society , to vote , to do what we can to try to put godly people in office and bring ungodly people down . We see it in Jeremiah 29.7 . It encourages us to seek the welfare of a city . Listen to this text . It encourages us to seek the welfare of a city . Listen to this text Also . Seek the peace and the prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile . Pray to the Lord for it , because if it prospers , you too will prosper . What a beautiful text , what a beautiful scripture to approach and not have a hands-off approach , but to encourage those who feel that calling and that leading into office . It is so easy to begin to say you know , I'm not going to put any finances or any time or any of my talents towards helping those who want to head in that direction .

Mark Spence 29:40

I think , well , god is sovereignly in control . He moves the king's heart as he sees fit . He's going to do what he wants to do anyways . Well , no , we occupy until he comes . God changes policies and hearts and societies by people . That's how he does it . Much in the same way . Well , if I were to have the position , god says that he's going to provide for all of my needs according to his riches in Christ Jesus , he tells me not to worry about what I'm going to eat . Okay , I'm not going to eat . Well , that would be ridiculous . I'm not going to work for my family , I'm not going to provide Because God's their provider . That is a silly approach . God uses everyday , simple actions to work supernaturally . Natural means to provide supernatural means . That's his gameplay . Well , if God's going to save someone , I don't need to share the gospel . This is just a silly approach , an ungodly approach to the way we respond to those around us , specifically those in politics . Yeah , we occupy .

Emeal Zwayne 30:43

Yeah , absolutely . And again , I'm always saying if we have the opportunity , as believers , to be a part of the conversation and a part of the process and often a part of the solution , are we crazy to not be involved ? You have some believers that are living under dictatorships where they don't have that possibility , they have no recourse in a sense . But when you're in a society where the mechanism is such that you are able , as a Christian , to get involved and , like you're saying , mark those that have that inclination , which I believe often is given by the Lord , to raise people up , we'd be insane not to the ability to vote and to affect policy that could align with our Christian worldview and with righteousness . Are we insane not to do it ? And I think , look , you do have your balance , because there are a lot of what are called political junkies . Right , there are a lot of Christians , I think , who are in a negative state , if you would , because they're just given over too much to the news and watching everything , reading everything .

Emeal Zwayne 31:47

Their hope is in politicians that are in Christ , but on the other hand , I think that there are some Christians that are on the other extreme , where they don't know what's going on in the country . They never look at the news , they never , you know . But if we're called to be salt and light , shouldn't we know what's happening so that we can pray , so that we can vote , so that we can even use it as a springboard for the sake of the gospel , to show care and compassion within our nation ? I mean , really , I've spoken to a number of Christians . They never know what's going on in the world . It's like , oh , it's almost like that's an ungodly thing to do that . No , we're God's agents in this world and we're his ambassadors . We should know . Oh .

Ray Comfort 32:26

I've noticed a lot of people on our YouTube channel have said God didn't protect or deliver Trump and they said , because he's an evil man , it wasn't God's hand . How would you answer that ?

Emeal Zwayne 32:40

Well , I would say this . I would say that , despite what someone's character might be , or despite what someone's religious affiliation may even be , that God can still sovereignly work . And I have two examples Isaiah 45 , 1 . This is King Cyrus , and it says Thus says the Lord to his anointed , to Cyrus , whose right hand I have held , to subdue nations before him and loose the armor of kings , to open before him the double doors so that the gates will not be shut . I mean , god here is referencing Cyrus , who was a pagan king of Persia , as his anointed Jeremiah 43.10 , and say to them thus says the Lord of hosts , the God of Israel behold , I will send and bring Nebuchadnezzar , the king of Babylon , my servant , and will set his throne above these stones that I have hidden , and he will spread his royal pavilion over them . So I mean , you know , and that's the pagan king of Babylon . So you have two pagan kings that were anointed , used by God for his divine purposes .

Emeal Zwayne 33:46

I would say the one caveat , though this is where , again , we go to extremes . Oh , so you guys are saying Trump got into office , god allowed that . And again , romans 13 , 1-7 , talks about the governing authorities that exist and are appointed by God right , but they go to the other extreme . Well then , trump must be a Christian right , and that's what we have to be careful of . When someone says this is the person I'm voting for and this is the person I'm endorsing , or whatever , it doesn't mean that they're now saying I believe that they're a brother or that they're truly born again . So we have to be careful there .

Oscar Navarro 34:22

And to clarify , because I know that a lot of people will do this . They'll hear that phrase oh , he's the anointed one , and they'll think about it in a messianic kind of a way . Yeah , it in a messianic kind of a way . Yeah , it's my chosen , chosen , selected for this purpose . But no , that's right . And so to be clear , yes , uh , donald trump is god's chosen president , as he was , you know , four years , three and a half years ago . He was god's anointed . In the same way , joe biden is god's anointed leader of america right now . In other words , there is not a single leader , politician , prime minister in this world that hasn't been put in their place by the sovereign hand of God to work out his plan , which ultimately is for our good . The scriptures tell us that everybody in leadership is put there by God for his plan .

Emeal Zwayne 35:11

Yeah , and that's the thing I think . People just immediately think that that means , if this is appointed by God , that this person is going to be perfect in character or do things that we would deem as perfect and righteous . You know and this is where it gets into Mark the intricacies of trying to figure out God's sovereignty . We can't , we don't understand his providential hand . But what's that saying by Spurgeon , is it when I can't out God's sovereignty , we can't , we don't understand his providential hand ?

Mark Spence 35:39

But what's that saying by Spurgeon ? Is it when I can't trace God's hand , I think I trust his heart . It was good . What a beautiful text . I think the problem that I see with Trump specifically is that they're looking at Trump to be a savior . Yeah Right , trump is not a savior . He's not a savior . Trump is not a savior . He's not our savior . He's not here to save America . We have to camp , we have to have a Selah moment with what Oscar just said here , that God ultimately is in charge . He uses people .

Mark Spence 36:06

I saw a ridiculous video clip of a gentleman who was being . He was inside of his car . He was doing , uh , like an instagram live moment , something live , and the police are saying open the door , open the door , we're gonna break in your window , we're gonna break in your window , you need to do it . And he's all , he's all . Look , my hands are up , my hands are up , and he starts crying and he says trump , help me , help me , tom donald . And I'm like , no , who is he praying to right now ? Are you serious ? I'm dead serious . He's praying to Trump to come and take a hold of the situation . That's what we need to be free from . We need to be careful of leaning so far that Trump is our only answer in turning America around . No , it's been said that God is seldom early , he's never late . No , he's never early . That God is seldom early , he's never late . No , he's never early and he's never late . He's always on time . He moves people like pieces for his glory and for our good .

Political Violence and Christian Response

Ray Comfort 37:04

That was a deep fake , wasn't it ? It just sounds so crazy .

Emeal Zwayne 37:08

Well , I know there have been some crazy things . Remember there was back in the day when Obama was in office and they were doing this almost like worship kind of song it was . It was insane . There is this delirium I think people get hit with , they get caught up in the hype and it's like this moment of and because , again , as people , our hearts are designed to worship and if Christ is not reigning on that throne , man , we will gravitate toward whatever moves us emotionally in a universal nation , in a religion and in family , and shifting our primary identity , which is also our primary affections , our primary way of worship , our primary view of tribalism .

Oscar Navarro 38:02

He said in three areas . He said consumerism , sexuality and politics . He suggested that a secular America would look like an America that turned politics into a religious fervor , and that is exactly what both of you are saying . I think that we have a lot to learn from the early church in regards to how to pursue policies and politicians . I think we see them do a lot of really good things and then we see them do a lot of things that ended up leading to atrocities . And I'm borrowing from John Dixon here . He's a historian , pretty respected Christian historian , but he is respected by both secular and Christian historians . He wrote a book called Bullies and Saints , and so what he shows , speaking of how do Christians interact with policies and politicians and the world around us and how do we do good to our city and to our communities , he shows that the early church exploded not only through evangelism but through hospitality and generosity , that they went and sought out the good of the people around them . They took care of children and orphans and people of need and because of this , this amazing movement for 250 years went from being this , this , you know , backwatered religion that was being persecuted , to being the fervor and the desire of the people .

Oscar Navarro 39:29

And then comes Constantine and he enacts the edict of Milan . And the Edict of Milan was this moment . Bear with me here because this is going somewhere . It was this moment where Constantine wanted to create Rome as a pluralistic nation . He didn't Christianize Rome . Basically , it was like hey , we need to all live here in peace together as Christians and as pagans . He kind of recognized and we have letters from Constantine to friends where he's going listen , the pagans couldn't paganize us . Therefore , the Christians aren't going to be able to Christianize the pagans through violence . We need to live here peacefully and let the truth prevail . And from that moment forward , it was an amazing place for Christians . They started to involve themselves in politics , in education , in the public square , and things were going really well .

Oscar Navarro 40:21

Then , 30 years later , emperor Julian Apostate comes along the scene and he reverses everything . He fires all the Christian professors , he ends all the Christian established welfare programs . He has all of the Christian politicians either resigned or killed . Basically , julian the Apostate was trying to push Christianity to the fringes of the Roman Empire . And then , almost like a crazy movie moment turn of events , he dies on a battlefield . A crazy movie moment turn of events he dies on a battlefield . And the Christian's response is what's interesting to me , because the Christian's response to this political persecution was like never again , we cannot risk another Julian .

Oscar Navarro 41:07

And so they went full board aggression and they started repressing paganism , uh , imprisoning and killing heretics and basically the end result is Roman Catholicism , which is Christendom without Christ . They looked at the solution to the problem was in power and control rather than in the Prince of Peace . And so whatever role we play is if we go out there with aggression and power and control . It's not what the early church was doing . It's not the recipe for God's movement . God has never worked through power . He has worked through the meek and the humble . That doesn't mean meek , as in not involved , but it means like we shouldn't look like the people around us when we talk about politics .

Emeal Zwayne 42:01

Wow , that's a great illustration , oscar , of what can happen when , again , we begin to abandon our trust in the Lord and His sovereign protection over us as His people . And that's not to say that Christians cannot defend themselves , you know , in an appropriate manner . But you know there is that to try to do what may be expedient , even for our own good as believers . And so , ray , you know violence in politics today , I mean there's so much of it on so many fronts . This was the one thwarted attempted assassination . I mean this was the closest we've seen since Reagan of something that just about happened . But there's attempts all the time . I mean there's violence all the time . That goes on Generally speaking . I mean we're talking about America here , but all around the world . Have you guys seen those videos of politicians in cabinet meetings and stuff where they just start beating each other up ?

Oscar Navarro 43:16

Throwing shoes at each other . Throwing shoes yeah .

Emeal Zwayne 43:18

They're punching each other , going off on each other . It's kind of like our board meetings here , but in parliament , you know . So I mean , would you say this in general is just a reflection of the fallen heart of man .

Ray Comfort 43:31

I think it's road rage hasn't confined itself to the road , it's spilled over into society . Everyone's got a short fuse and I think fuse Social media has kind of done that . Amazon would take two days to deliver something some time ago and that was exciting for us . Now if it's not there , it's not coming this afternoon , and so everyone's got a kind of short fuse and I can feel my short fuse when I'm driving on the road Just coming here the other day a car in front of me went slow up to the lights . He's probably looking at his phone when he's going up to these lights . The lights were green and then they turned red and he got through and I didn't and I just felt not rage but just thought , no , I've just got to calm down this short fuse isn't good for a Christian because we're called to love our enemies , we're called to be peacemakers .

Ray Comfort 44:17

That word , makers , is really important . That speaks of an adjective . We make peace and we strive to keep peace . Not just peace , the peace of God , peace on earth , but peace with heaven . That's the key . Peace on earth is politics , peace with heaven is the gospel .

Emeal Zwayne 44:32

Mark , you know , maybe you can comment on this if you've seen it , but I've been moved oftentimes when I've seen a politician be highlighted as very unusual because they didn't respond and like to a political opponent , you know , or someone came after them with just vitriol but they were able to speak truth and maybe point out that opponent's shortcomings politically , but not get personal and not nasty and even say a few gracious words . That's salt and light , right , that's our testimony before the world .

Mark Spence 45:05

Yeah , if I'm understanding what you're asking here , because I rarely understand what you're saying . There's arguments to be dealt with right . You don't attack the person , you attack the argument . And when you are attacking the person , that is the first sign of a failed argument . When you're not able to understand what you're saying yourself , you begin to raise up your voice instead of raising up your argumentation .

Mark Spence 45:28

We need to be slow to speak at all times . To speak at all times . We need to be quick , to listen at all times . So when somebody comes up against , I mean , let's just make it more personal with us . Even on a daily , day-to-day basis . We need to understand what the argumentation is in order to have a conversation . If you don't have all of your ducks in a row , well then , just listen , just be grateful that somebody's saying something to you . So we need to be able to receive input from anybody and everybody . That kind of comes our way .

Mark Spence 45:58

That changes with political rhetoric . When we see this with debates , when a somebody in politics , they are asked a very direct question and the answer has nothing to do with the question that was asked . It's it's . My wife has often said when I leave a Q&A she'll say you had some really great answers to questions that were never asked . It's so easy for me to just kind of get sidetracked , but you can't do that when you're in a place of politics , because the questions that are asked , by and large , are the questions of the people . We want to have answers to these very specific questions . So don't hem and haw around the issue around . Don't answer like a politician . Somebody's once said that's not good to do that .

Emeal Zwayne 46:41

Yeah . So , oscar , how can we as believers now respond in this moment where this is going to be the topic of discussion ? For a while , and I tried to use it as a springboard . I just came back from a trip on a plane . Hey , did you guys hear about what happened with President Trump ? Oh , yeah , and you could segue from that . I used it with my Lyft driver on the way home yesterday . I said do you hear what ? Yeah , and I said man , isn't it crazy how close he was in terms of his life ending . What do you think about life ? I mean , do you ever think about eternity ? And I just went from .

Mark Spence 47:11

There .

Emeal Zwayne 47:11

Good job , EZ . Starting sharing the gospel , but using these springboards . What can we do ?

Oscar Navarro 47:16

Yeah , well , I love that as a springboard . I mean anything that we see in the news . I also think that what can we do ? Going back to what Ray talked about being a peacemaker and you alluded to this too I think what can we do ? Also , in the way in which we contribute to conversations around us , we can act like peacemakers . I wrote three things down .

Oscar Navarro 47:37

One we need to remember that politicians are not characterized gladiators , because often when we talk about politicians , we talk about them in this way that we would never talk about our neighbor or friend or someone we know face to face . It's like we all recognize that we are all created in God's image and do dignity and respect . Unless you're talking about a politician . You know what I mean . It's like when we start talking about someone on the other side of us , all of a sudden we can mock them . We can call them names , we can characterize them , but that is somebody created in God's image , and for you to mock them , you are actually mocking God , the image-bearing quality of God in them . That is the reason why everybody is due dignity and respect , not because of who they are , how they vote , but because of who they were made by , and so all of us can participate by honoring the image-bearing quality in politicians when we talk about them . We can also this is something that you alluded to , mark demand more from politicians and commentators you mentioned this which is like we are now watching people attack people rather than their ideas . It's so fascinating If you go back and watch presidential debates in like the 80s and 70s .

Oscar Navarro 48:51

They come out and they're like listen , the person I'm against . He's a good man . He wants what's great for this country . I respect him . He's done a lot of good . Him and I just have different views on what's the right thing to do next , and that's what we're gonna be here to talk about today . You will see at times , even in the 2000s , where somebody would mock the character of a presidential candidate and the opposing person would go whoa , whoa . That's not fair .

Oscar Navarro 49:15

You know , defend them as a person , and so we need to demand that kind of character from politicians and from commentators . And then , thirdly , we can't lose our hope in Christ and the reality that and this gets to what you're saying that the Lord means to deliver us through what he has done on the cross . The answer to all of these problems are already here His kingdom on earth as it is in heaven , and what we ought to do . Instead of going out there and win voters to our side , we should be proclaiming the gospel for the sake of God's kingdom .

Emeal Zwayne 49:52

Ray , that's what it comes down to at the end of the day , right , it's down to the root cause of the problem of humanity , we must never lose sight of our agenda .

Ray Comfort 50:02

The agenda of the book of Acts was to deliver sinners from the wrath to come . That's what we should be concerned of . And as fruit of that , christian character comes into a society . And that's when you have a lawful society .

Emeal Zwayne 50:14

Amen . Yeah , and Oscar , I was thinking about what you were saying , about how the rhetoric has so changed and I think people have become desensitized to it . I mean , in this recent presidential debate they were going back and forth about their golfing prowess . I'm like man , this is where we're at now . So , yeah , God help us and friends , may God help us more than anything to maintain a Christ-centered outlook on all things , that our calling as believers is to even love our enemies , and that needs to be at the foundation . That doesn't mean we don't defend our nation . That doesn't mean that we don't speak truth On the contrary , because those are all part and parcel with righteousness but we do it in a way that says look , I care for your soul and in fact , as a Christian , I'm willing to take a bullet to bring that truth to you so that your soul may be saved , like Christ demonstrated by giving his life to redeem us as long as it just gets your ear .

Emeal Zwayne 51:15

Yeah , hopefully . So there you have it , frowns . We hope you've been encouraged . Hey , keep the conversation going . Tell people that they can find a savior who will one day change this entire planet . We're not gonna have any more of this junk going on . Thank you for all that you do in following the Lord and in supporting the ministry here . Don't forget , count your blessings and stop stressing Ray Comfort's 365-day devotional . And don't forget the Living Waters mug and the Evidence Study Bible at livingwaterscom . Friends , yes , it's true , this is still one of the top podcasts in the world , so keep telling people and subscribe and do all that good stuff . Podcast livingwaterscom . Thank you for joining us , friends . We'll see you here next time on the living waters podcast , where we have no idea what we're doing do you know what happens to your mouth when you say thank you ?

Oscar Navarro 52:09

thank you , it is warm in here is that you ?

Mark Spence 52:11

know what's happening to the ears of the people .