You have no mention of sin , judgment and righteousness . Well then you get to really do whatever you want to do . You get to be yourself . You know , love is love . Love wins , and obviously I'm not saying that that's all associated in the midst of that with the homosexuality angle there . But what I am saying is that you are now the master and the commander of your own ship and of your own destiny . I mean , who doesn't want to see and experience perhaps miracles if you go down that realm , bill Johnson , right from Bethel .
Speaker 2Church .
Speaker 1He has said some horrific things and done some horrific things and elevating experiences over Scripture . And then , when that happens , it's a terrible thing , and this is what I mean by that , because you have somebody on the outside , in the outskirts , sitting there inside the pew , who begins to think to themselves well , I want to hear from God , how come I'm not hearing from God ? Well , you have to try harder , you have to pray harder . Your faith is lacking and then it becomes so introspective and you discard away from the Word of God . It becomes an overwhelming pressure and you start elevating man above Christ . You'll have to , because you think , boy , this person sure does hear from the Lord . And then you start elevating that person to a place where he is never designed to be , where only Christ deserves to be right . So that's the danger when you start seeking after experiences and you listen to people who should never be behind a pulpit because , quite frankly , they're just not saved .
Speaker 2Medicine cabinet opens , person removes tube of something from medicine cabinet , snickers puts it back and then you hear do you want to get away , guys ? Remember that ad ? No , come on , ray , I was a 70s Southwestern Airlines .
Speaker 4no , I don't remember that do you want to get away dreams it's one of your dreams .
Speaker 2No , these are you and I have talked about these commercials multiple times Not that one when someone does something embarrassing and then do you want to get away .
Speaker 4No , you don't know . Oh yes , that's .
Speaker 1Calgon , calgon , take me away . No , that's Calgon . I did see an interesting fact . The number one thing that people snoop into when they're visiting somebody's house is a medicine cabinet inside .
Speaker 2And that's why I want to ask Ray Ray have you ever opened a medicine cabinet at someone's house in the bathroom , when you shouldn't have ?
Speaker 1Just to see what was in there .
Speaker 2Look at the look , look at the nostrils are flaring .
Speaker 4Give me more information . Give me information Short-term memory loss .
Speaker 2Yeah , when did I do that ? You happen to forget ? No , I'm just wondering if you ever have . I just figured you must have at some point .
Speaker 4Yeah Well , I've traveled , I've been in hundreds of homes . Oh , so you've opened hundreds of homes .
Speaker 1You know , what I like to do is I like to put stuff in their medicine cabinet during parties , knowing that people will open it up and just see the most random craziness .
Speaker 2Oh , wouldn't that be funny to put a note in there . What are you doing ? Look at .
Speaker 1Kachi with a little camera phaser .
Speaker 2You know what that would be a novelty item that I bet would sell really well .
Speaker 3There's an old Seinfeld episode where Jerry's at the apartment of someone and he sees that the lady has a rash cream in there and he's like where's the rash ? Where's the rash ? The whole episode is him trying to figure out where the rash is . Oh man .
Speaker 1Rash cream toe fungus .
Speaker 2Fungus remover , yeah , all kinds of stuff Right next to the toothpaste .
Speaker 4Leave the house Ray looks like a thot . Leave before you get
something .
Speaker 2Oh man , but yeah , those embarrassing moments in life . I think that those commercials were so successful because people can relate to it . You know , something happening that it's just like you're doomed , but something happening that it's just like you're doomed .
Speaker 3Yeah , that's Ray's life . Basically , do you get embarrassed easily ?
Speaker 2Never , I've never been embarrassed . I've never been embarrassed .
Speaker 1Surprised . Have you heard him sing ? He does not get embarrassed , he's immune to embarrassment .
Speaker 2No , I've told you guys my most embarrassing moment when I broke that denture . Wait , I don't remember this what .
Speaker 3I've never shared this . I don't think so .
Speaker 2You made dentures . Well , I used to make dentures . Believe it or not , I was planning .
Speaker 3Were they your own ?
Speaker 2I was planning to serve you guys in the future . That was what was you better get the background , yeah , so my family had a dental lab . We made dentures and my brother-in-law was mentoring this guy , uh , who wanted to start his own business , so he's kind of teaching him how to make dentures . So anyway , he came and he had made his very first denture and he was like , I mean , this guy was like like he just won I'm loving the story already olympic gold like this . He was so excited so my brother-in-law was looking at it and then I go , okay , I see , you know , and then they start talking , you know , and I'm like uh , and it snapped he snapped it in my hand .
Speaker 4I was like 19 it didn't snap , you bent it no I was just like testing it . Yeah , there , you bent it .
Speaker 2Yeah , you can do it and well , I mean to be fair , it shouldn't have done , it should not have snapped . Yeah , yeah , so it was a terrible .
Speaker 1It looked like he should have got fired . It looked horrible .
Speaker 2Well , he didn't work for us . He had his own , he was starting his own lab , and that's why he was so excited . So these are false teeth .
Speaker 4And how do they start ? They make this individual 22 teeth .
Speaker 2Well , you take an impression and then you do , you do like teeth , the little teeth in the things of the things and those things , the Spence family is known for not having their own teeth Really False teeth . Is that your future ?
Speaker 1Mark False teeth ? No , I floss at least twice a day .
Speaker 3I'm scared of losing my arm . Flosser Dude , I floss everywhere I go .
Speaker 4Yeah , that's correct . What's ? Your name Dentures are like a false convert . Yeah , they're not rooted in Never the same .
Speaker 1Oh , like a false prophet . Thank you , the spiritual one , always Spiritual right .
Speaker 3Yeah . Like a false prophet . They'll break when you bend them . Yeah .
Speaker 2Oh , today's episode . You're on a roll , oscar , yeah . So anyway , I stood there and time stood still . Man , I just was like because , you know , and the guy's still like say yeah , and I'm like , I'm serious , I'm like I broke your denture . Oh , my goodness .
Speaker 4Couldn't you say I found the weak point in here . Ah , very wise .
Speaker 2And then , say thank you so much . Yeah , I should have , just with authority . Hey , you had a week . My ears is horrible . Yeah , snap next time ?
Speaker 4yeah , next time . Right , you're wise .
Speaker 2Yeah , beyond his years well , all right , friends , time for a cool , classy comment . This is from trinity . I've been meaning to send this for a long time , but this Insta story reminded me too . My name is Trinity . I sometimes use my mom's Instagram account . I'm a junior in high school and I just want to say thank you for the podcast .
Speaker 2The podcast and YouTube videos have been very influential in my life . My mom was the one that got me to listen to it . I at first told her that she was crazy and I would never become a podcast listener . But here I am . Through this podcast , I realized that I was not truly born again . I thought I was . I had made a profession of faith when I was five , but I didn't really remember it , nor understood the meaning . Two years ago is when I started listening to the podcast and when you all talked about the law . God started to convict my heart . Ray's jumping up and down in his heart right now . A few weeks later , I went to church camp and the message was about the gospel . For the first time in my life , it clicked . Thank you for all that the Living Waters ministry does . My life has been changed .
Speaker 2You didn't cry oh man , I know I made it through this one . I got that on Instagram . Yeah , Did you get the same one ? I think you might have sent it . I did . I sent it to you . That's amazing . So , Ray , this right here to me is an example of the ultimate fulfillment of your heart's desire with our ministry , Wouldn't you say ?
Speaker 4I mean , she came to realize yeah , but even more people would be better .
Speaker 2Yeah , more please , but I'm saying that this example of what she's saying happened to her in light of coming face to face with the Lord , and to think there are multitudes in the same bracket .
Speaker 4They name the name of Christ , but they've never been truly born again because they've never seen their sin . So it's wonderful to hear that . And you know , she's going to become a laborer .
Speaker 2Yeah , a laborer ? Yeah , sure Amen . I love that . That's what we love to see . Yeah , converts who become convert makers , by God's grace . Convertologists , convertologists and now a radically revolutionary resource . This podcast is brought to you by the Tract Sample Pack , or the Pack of Samples of Tracts , or whatever . We should change the name on things just to have fun .
Speaker 4You're going to say what is this ? And I'm going to say samples of tracts .
Speaker 2Sample of it . What is it Ray ?
Speaker 4It's all our tracts in one really nice box yeah .
Speaker 2Whose idea was the box right ?
Speaker 4Was it yours or mine ? Yours , oh , it was mine .
Speaker 2I wanted to accuse you of pride when you said yours . You didn't fall for it .
Speaker 3My favorite thing about this is that on your notes it says tracked sample pack . Underneath it says blah , blah , blah blah , blah .
Speaker 2No , you're not supposed to read my notes . I do that so that I could . If I wanted to put notes on there , I'm going to punch you , Oscar , no .
Speaker 1It actually is the absolute best thing to order if you're undecided on what sort of gospel track .
Speaker 2Yeah , one of everything . It'll give you one of everything and you'll know what we have .
Speaker 4Including the booklets . Yeah , oh yeah , the booklets .
Speaker 2Booklets Ray the booklets . Was it White Christianity Over a million . Yeah , over a million are sold , which is just amazing . All to one lady trying to save a husband , which is just amazing . All to one lady trying to save her husband . Yes , all right , don't forget the Living Waters mug of the Evidence Study Bible , all that ring , ring , ring , ring , ring ring .
Speaker 3Dot ring , dot ring .
Speaker 2Yeah , ray , why is your phone ?
Speaker 4ringing . That was background music for when you were speaking . Oh , was it . Yeah , it was just to enhance what you were saying .
Speaker 2Yeah , all right . Friends , today we are talking about a subject that may be new to some of you , but is in connection with something that has in some ways taken the world by storm . Sadly , a lot more of this is seen in countries around the world , outside of America , that are more impoverished , and I guess I don't call them third world anymore . You guys informed me of that .
Speaker 3Is that true ? Yeah , Was ?
Speaker 2was that just something like politically ?
Speaker 3Third world was for world war one and two . When there was the access and the allies , that was a world war . And the third world was the world not in the war , which was those impoverished nations . That was not a part of the access or the allies . This is really ridiculous information .
Speaker 2Have you done deep research on that ?
Speaker 3I don't know , it's just dumb stuff , that stick to my brain .
Speaker 2Have you just made it up ? Yeah , what do they call them now ? Developing nations .
Speaker 3Developing nations yeah .
Speaker 4That's a horrible thing to say Developing Underdeveloped Nations in puberty . I don't know .
Speaker 2So yeah , we're talking today about the new apostolic reformation . What ?
Speaker 1Yeah , what I thought we were talking about the error of taking a vacation in Australia . That's what I got . I thought it was the RAF .
Speaker 4Royal Air Force .
Speaker 2I thought we were talking about rifles , yeah , so , anyhow , for those of you that were paying attention , the new , oh the new , the heirs of the new apostolic reformation , you know , when you hear that term , it almost sounds like something solid . You know , the new apostolic reformation ? That sounds like error to me , does it ? Yes , well , the reason I say it sounds like something solid is because , you know , apostolic right , that's a term often used by churches 're apostolic , we carry on the apostolic tradition and , uh , reformation , right , that's a , a buzzword in christianity .
Speaker 2That's good for us evangelists , it's the word new , that's the given , the new new testament . Come on right yeah , let's done this past , yeah , and that new is old , but , uh , unlike what I said , it sounds like , um , this is something that has very deep , grave error connected to it , and today we want to explore it .
Speaker 4I'm so pleased you're doing this one .
Speaker 2You're invited . You are . Ray's been jumping up and down . He couldn't wait .
Speaker 4I've been studying all morning , and what a mess .
Speaker 2Just horrible , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1You know , there's a foundational truth that is out there , that I've heard for years . If it's new , it's not true , and if it's true , it's not new . We always need to go back to the Word of God as our source of authority , our foundation for truth , and see if things line up there . We don't need to invent or design or create anything new , and if somebody uses that word new , we just need to be hesitant , especially in relation to biblical truth . Right , because the Bible is our source of authority .
Speaker 2Yeah , and that's the thing right . A lot of times , those that are saying they're new are in many ways declaring we're going back to what was original , and oftentimes , when you explore that , you recognize that's not really the case , and that's why it's important to challenge things that come our way that purport to be biblical . We need to be like the Bereans right Acts 17 , 11 . They were more noble-minded than those who were in Thessalonica . They not only received the word with great eagerness , they examined the scriptures to see if these things were so .
Speaker 4I wonder if the Thessalonians were depressed when they saw that .
Speaker 3They're like what Are you dissing us For all of eternity ?
Speaker 4World's biggest selling book . And there you are , dissing us the loser .
Speaker 2Thessalonians yeah , so , guys , let me read for us to give us some kind of context . I'll let you guys jump in , but this is from gotquestionsorg to give us a backdrop for the New Apostolic Reformation , or NAR . The New Apostolic Reformation , or NAR , is an unbiblical religious movement that emphasizes experience over Scripture , mysticism over doctrine and modern-day apostles over the plain text of the Bible . Of particular distinction in the New Apostolic Reformation are the role and power of spiritual leaders and miracle workers , the reception of new revelations from God , an overemphasis on spiritual warfare and a pursuit of cultural and political control in society . The seeking of signs and wonders in NAR is always accompanied by blatantly false doctrine .
Speaker 4Boy , that's a great synopsis .
Speaker 2Is that a good summation ? Yeah , gotquestionsorg friends , great , great ministry and good friends of ours . Yeah , that's a great synopsis . Isn't that a good summation ? Yeah , yeah , gotquestionsorg friends , great , great ministry and good friends of ours .
Speaker 4Yeah , they call on us Questions , yeah .
Speaker 2You're the one right . Yeah , all the answers . Yeah , so jump in
, guys . I have a whole list of different things I want to look at here , but I want to make sure you guys have something to say first .
Speaker 1Is there anything specific in the midst of that Pandora's box that we want to start off with ? I mean , there's so much there . When we start talking about the new apostolic , it kind of reminds me of the Mormon church , right ? Yeah , that when Joseph Smith came on the scene he was restoring the church because everybody else went kind of anathema . And here we have nar , right , they're redefining all sorts of things that are happening here . You like that ? Oscar Nar , nar Nar . It's gnarly Like evangelism has been replaced within the nar movement , and that is , they go out and they pray for people to be healed and there's , like , no mention of sin , judgment , righteousness , hell , repentance , no salvific grace or mercy , no ascension , no character of Christ that is mentioned . Let me just pray that somebody's leg grows back or somebody's marriage is healed , and then they walk away saying that this is evangelism . Right ? There's a great danger in the midst of that . There's nothing in scripture that would illuminate and look like that when it comes to evangelism , right ? So since we're at evangelistic message , I'll start there .
Speaker 4Ooh , very good , Mark . When Mark speaks of Mormonism , I always sit up because of this veritage .
Speaker 2I know man Don't even get me started on that . Get that documentation . Mark , descendant of Joseph Smith .
Speaker 4You really are a descendant of Joseph Smith . That's what I'm told .
Speaker 1So when did it change ?
Speaker 4I think we are all kind of Don't spread it like that . When does Smith become Spence ?
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah . No , that's good , mark . Yeah , extra biblical revelation and the whole signs and wonders thing . Oscar , you inhaled . You were going to say something . Sorry , andrew . Yeah , I was going to say nothing important .
Speaker 3You were gonna say something . Sorry , I interrupted . Yeah , I was gonna say nothing important .
Speaker 3One of the things that you , when you read it a key word that was used there to help understand and also to recognize the difficulty of identifying the new apostolic reformation is that this isn't a denomination , this isn't a organized gathering always it is . The word used was movement . It is , it's a movement , and one of the things that's , I think , difficult let's let's talk about like the difficulty of identifying it , is that you mentioned more of like a charismatic Pentecostal version of new apostolic reformation , where they're praying for healing and not preaching the gospel . That's definitely a part of it , but it's not . It's not centralized to Pentecostal . That's definitely a part of it , but it's not centralized to charismatic Pentecostalism . It's beyond that as well .
Speaker 3And so I think there's key metrics that we can kind of key in on . You started to do that . One of them is the authority of the individual over scripture . That's key , and I also think that one way of identifying it is kind of going to its founder , c Peter Wagner . He's known as being the founder of the New Apostolic Reformation . He was a theologian and a teacher at a local college here actually in Southern California , but CW Wagner , in his own words , said that the local church is shifting from being led or governed by elders and pastors to being under the authority that's a key word and oversight of individual apostles . So he saw this new reformation , this new great awakening , and he believed that all of that was gonna start with these super apostles . Essentially , yeah , that we're gonna have authority and oversight not only over the church but over God's word . That's a key indicator of this new apostolic reformation among many others .
Speaker 2Yeah , and obviously the danger in that is that scripture makes it clear that the apostles and prophets were the foundation of the church and now they're trying to build another foundation , and so that's a big part of it . It's trying to usurp authority , but scripture is clear on the fact that you know those . And when we look at the book of Acts , when it talked about replacing Judas as an apostle , they were talking about someone who had been with them , who had witnessed the miracles of Christ , who had seen the resurrected Savior , who had seen the resurrected Savior who was called by Christ . There were certain things that had to be fulfilled in order for that to happen , and that era has passed with the establishment of the Word of God , which contains the foundation of the apostles and prophets .
Speaker 1Mark , can I make an observation here ? In Mark 16 , it says and these signs will follow those who believe . Then it says you know , in my name they'll cast out demons , they'll speak in new tongues , they'll do these things In Nar .
Speaker 3Can I just call it that yeah , Is that okay ? Is that safe ? I ?
Speaker 1like it Nar , like gnarly In Nar . These signs are not following believers , but the believers are following after signs , Right , Right . And so , to validate the work of God , we are seeing works of God , right or unexplained things , and interpretations and prophetic words are very , very vague . There's nothing very specific . It's not like on January 13th 2026 , this is going to take place . Instead , it's going to be something along the lines you're going to eat Mexican food this week , right , Because nobody dares to step out of the boat and make these huge claims because they never come to pass . Right ? And remember , in Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18 , it says this is how you know that a prophet is sent from God , that they're going to be correct 100% of the time . That's how you know . So very specific prophecies , as we see inside of the Old Testament , fulfilled inside of the New Testament .
Speaker 1We do not need to be seeking after signs , because signs will come after the believer . Now listen , whether you're a continuationist or whether you're a cessationist , it's irrelevant here , because everybody believes that God can do whatever he wants . God can have somebody's arm grow back If that's what God wants . What we need to do is we need to be careful in saying that I have a gift of healing that somebody's arm can't . I mean otherwise , just go to icu units . No right , I see you , that's superfluous intensive care unit .
Speaker 1Intensive care units , units icus icus , right , and you don't see them doing that . They they don't go to cemeteries and raise people from the dead . Yeah , well , I know right . Yeah , why don't they ? You have something wrong . Let me pray for your headache , right ? Something that we can never actually fact check . And we see that Justin Peters actually looked into this very well . In going to different faith healing meetings , inside of his wheelchair , he says , listen , I have the faith , I have friends that have the faith for me to be healed , pray for me to be healed . And they don't allow him to go anywhere near or even inside of these meetings , these healing meetings .
Speaker 2Yeah , near or even inside of these meetings , these healing meetings , yeah . And another one of the dangers is basically trying to say that you only have authority as someone appointed by God if you're able to do these things . And again , that's a misunderstanding of scripture and the era in which God worked in the foundation of the church .
Speaker 4I think the tragedy is that these guys that have a quote gift of healing draw to themselves people who are immature spiritually . Yeah , they want to see signs and wonders and it's grievous that they'll get like 10 , 15,000 people come but the gospel's not preached Right and , like Mark said , no preaching of sin , righteousness and judgment and upholding of the cross . It's all signs and wonders . I've been through that .
When I was in New Zealand there was just the charismatic quote movement . It ran right across the whole country . I've been there , done that . Coming to the US was a wonderful refreshing for me because I didn't feel right in that whole thing . Wow , you know , just to be grounded in the Word and hear Christians say God speaks to us through his word , because when I meet someone who says God told me this , I want to get away as quick as possible , because that person isn't open to reason or open to correction , because God told them something . Therefore it's absolute , it's written in stone . What I've heard is not going to change God told me you need to give up your chickens .
Speaker 2Well , God told me never to say that yeah .
Speaker 3Yeah . And again to be clear , it's not so easy to say , okay , well , it's going to only be in these kind of charismatic Pentecostal circles , Cause there's actually a church in South Orange County that is very much NAR and they're not charismatic Pentecostal . And so here's another way , which is you'll often hear people in this circle talk about the seven mountains of influence .
Speaker 2This is very important .
Speaker 3They see these seven mountains as family , religion , education , media , arts , entertainment , business and government . Now this is where it gets kind of . We need to chop it up a little bit because from the surface it's like okay , well , what's wrong with Christians wanting to be influential in these seven areas of the culture ? Go ?
Speaker 4ahead . I was just going to say could you explain the seven mountains , the vision of what they're saying , rather than just name them off and then move on ?
Speaker 3Right , yes , so um , one they they . They borrow from two different things One that they borrow from the seven hills of Rome , which we see in Revelation and other parts of scripture , which was a very specific thing . But they also borrow from Abraham Kuyper's sphere of sovereignty , and here's where the distinguishing difference is . Abraham Kuyper saw the sphere of sovereignty as the seven areas of cultural influence , but when he talked about them , he also recognized the heart of Christ in the way in which kingdom , god's kingdom , would come on earth as it is in heaven . The difference between Kuyper's view of sphere of sovereignty and NAR's view of seven mountain mandate is that the NAR seven mountain mandate is all about taking over through power . That's the key difference is that this is a , this is a political like when it comes to politics , like we need to take the power back . That's the kind of language that the seven mountain mandate will use and that is very antithetical to the New Testament .
Speaker 3The New Testament does talk about having an influence in culture , but Jesus talks about the meek inheriting the earth , not the militant . He tells us to pick up our crown I'm sorry . He tells us to pick up our cross , not our crowns . He says it's not going to be by the sword , or actually you reminded me of it this morning and you did a little devotional for the leaders here at the ministry which is that Jesus could have called down legions of angels and yet he chooses to die as a criminal on a cross and that , from man's view , is like the end of of his life and influence . But that was the beginning of his kingdom on earth as it is in heaven . And so the key difference here is are we to have influence in these cultural areas ? Absolutely . But as Kuyper pointed out when he talked about the sphere of sovereignty , we do that through humble service , through meekness and humility , not through power , not through political persuasion , et cetera , et cetera .
Speaker 4We just have to look at the book of Acts to see the agenda of the church wasn't to take over Rome , amen . It was to preach the gospel change the hearts of men rather than change the government .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean , mark , that's what typically happens . Right Is , whenever we pursue something whether it's power or whatever agenda to bolster the influence of the church , we miss the call to reach people with the gospel .
Speaker 1Yeah , boy , that's very well put . You know , in John 18 , 36 , jesus said his kingdom is not of this world , it's not of this place . Now , he could easily have established it during that first century reign , but he didn't , right . So we have to remember that there is a spiritual battle going on and there are so many Christian nationalists that are just simply trying to establish a kingdom here , doing whatever it takes to have righteousness reign . Now , listen , don't get me wrong . Nothing wrong with that .
Speaker 1We vote , we occupy . Until he comes , we will always have a voice . You need to go to student council meetings and being able to have a voice at PTAs and things of that nature . Always do that , never give up . But that's not our hope . Our hope is not who is inside the White House . Our hope is in Christ alone . We can sleep just as easy the day after the election knowing that the enemy is inside the White House or the person we voted for is inside the White House . We should rest just the same , because Christ rules and reigns supreme and he doesn't need our wisdom in the midst of it all . So we occupy and at the same time we are preaching about a kingdom that is out of this world , amen , who will never end and will always reign Right Oscar , absolutely .
Speaker 3Let me just say cause . This is this is where the rabbit trail for me ended up going down . Cause you brought up like this nationalist view of of taking over the government and and this is where NAR is not like a fringe organization with no influence it's pretty wild how influential they actually are . I mean , starting with Sarah Palin , mary Glacier is her church leader , he's a member of the Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders . And then , in 2015 , lance Wilmer had a vision for the 45th president of the United States . Jw Wagner , the founder , in 2016 , endorsed Trump , saying that he already took over Two Mountains Media and Business . And if you remember , a few years ago , when Trump first got office , there was all of these Christian leaders around him . Many of them were NIR apostles , so they have major influence .
Speaker 3Tim Sheets says I mean , this is the language of an era apostle . He says God combined and listen to the way he he um loses this the difference between God's kingdom in heaven and man's governmental kingdom . He says God combined civil and spiritual government when he established America . Okay , that's a problem . That's red flags right there . From a theological perspective , the war over planet earth is a governmental war . Who will rule the earth ? The battle for humankind is governmental . Who will be their Lord , their master ? The battle for the heavens is governmental . Who will be the most high ? Guys like him and girls like Paula White ? These are NIR people who have massive influence over a cultural understanding of the relationship between your faith and the government .
Speaker 2Yeah , and then you start seeing all sorts of bizarre things happening . I think , oscar , to your point , it does extend beyond the bounds of the charismatic movement , but we often find it , with some of the examples you just gave , prominent within that realm and you start seeing insane things happening . I mean , look , bethel Church is a part of that whole realm as well . Yeah , and they have the whole . You know like what do they call them Dusk clouds or whatever , and there's gold , gold clouds . Yeah , gold coming through and angels' feathers , and it was discovered there's stuff they're putting in the vent and stuff coming out , but bizarre things like that they're more than bizarre .
Speaker 4They're embarrassing for the cause of the gospel . Yeah , that's a good way to put it .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , humiliating . It's like the world sees this . We have enough of an uphill battle , right with being sound and just giving the pure gospel , and yet this stuff is all added and it's heaped up on us as Christians . And then you know the discernment level . I was watching a video this morning . You guys remember that guy , todd Bentley , mm-hmm , the guy that kicks people , punches them , punches them , kicks them . He was talking about kicking this lady in the head , mm-hmm . This guy was like as bad news as you can get . God told him to kick her in the head . Yeah , god told him . And you had this apostle it may have been Wagner , I don't know , but there was someone up on the stage with him , like commissioning him that God's going to .
Speaker 4And Todd Bentley's standing up there and he's shaking and you feel like saying just stand still , you're embarrassing , Just knock it off .
Speaker 2It's just stupid . Yeah , still you'll get off . Yeah , yeah , it's really . It's really heartbreaking , but it's dangerous too , because , again , there are ripple effects from some of this doctrine and theology . You know the whole receiving new revelation . You have books like the one , uh , written by sarah young jesus calling oh yeah , which is basically , in essence , sold millions of copies copies , by the way , oh , big time , tens of millions , but that's like new revelation . She's basically saying it's Jesus talking , this is what Jesus told her to say . I mean , that's like it's insanity , and believers need to stand up and be discerning
. What do you think is the attraction to this , though , guys ? I'd love to hear from you on that . What is it that's attracting millions , tens of millions of quote unquote believers to want to be a part of this ?
Speaker 1What's the draw ? Well , there's no . If you have no mention of sin , judgment and righteousness , well then you get to really do whatever you want to do . You get to be yourself . You know , love is love , love wins . And obviously I'm not saying that that's all associated in the midst of that with the homosexuality angle there , but what I am saying is that you are now the master and the commander of your own ship and of your own destiny . I mean , who doesn't wanna see and experience perhaps , miracles if you go down that realm ? You know Bill Johnson , right from Bethel .
Speaker 2Church .
Speaker 1He has said some horrific things and done some horrific things and elevating experiences over scripture . And then , when that happens , it's a terrible thing , and this is what I mean by that , because you have somebody on the outside , in the outskirts , sitting there inside the pew , who begins to think to themselves well , I want to hear from God , how come I'm not hearing from God ? Well , you have to try harder , you have to pray harder . Your faith is lacking and then it becomes so introspective and you discard away from the word of God . It becomes an overwhelming pressure and you start elevating man above Christ . You'll have to , because you think , boy , this person sure does hear from the Lord . And then you start elevating that person to a place where he is never designed to be , where only Christ deserves to be right . So that's the danger when you start seeking after experiences and you listen to people who should never be behind a pulpit because , quite frankly , they're just not saved .
Speaker 3That's really good . I think , man , you hit it on the head , mark . I think there's a few things going on there and one of the things I think you're saying is people have a desire to be close to the people they perceive are close to God . You know , everyone wanted to live near David , everyone wanted to have a conversation with Moses , and so when you have an air quote apostle out there saying he's receiving information from the Lord , he's got this direct contact right . It's like man , I want to gravitate towards that , and so that's a way in which they manipulate and take advantage of the masses .
Speaker 3But I also think that the message in itself is very man-centered . To go back to your question , which is a great question why do people gravitate towards that ? It's a man-centered message . They see the same problem we see out there , in the culture , in the world . They see the issue of sin , they see that something needs to happen and instead of trusting the Lord with his timing and his sovereignty and his plan , they're trusting themselves . They say let me take it's a works righteousness thing , I'm going to take over . Here's what I'm going to do . Here's what you need to do to bring this about .
Speaker 3And so it becomes a man-centered , you gain back control over the kingdom the air quote kingdom of God , when really , ultimately , what you're doing is just propagating the kingdom of man once again .
Speaker 2Wow , that's so , so good to highlight Oscar , the kingdom of man versus the kingdom of man once again . Wow , that's so good to highlight Oscar , the kingdom of man versus the kingdom of God . And to me I firmly believe that that is evidenced in a drift from the gospel . I mean , we've already touched on it lightly , but I do wanna really hone in on this because anytime someone begins to drift from God's agenda and God's mission , the gospel always goes .
Speaker 2Always Because the gospel isn't beneficial to the person who's seeking power and authority and in many cases , sadly , financial gain . The gospel isn't helpful there because the gospel's offensive , the gospel , is repulsive to the natural man . You're not going to draw masses of people with the gospel . So anytime the gospel goes , it's evident you're building the kingdom of man and you're after your own interests and man . That's tragic .
Speaker 2So I think power is a big draw for that . Money is a big draw for that . The sense of authority and power is a big draw for that . Money is a big draw for that . The sense of authority and following is a big draw for that . But another big error that I see with NAR is also that NAR I appreciate that yes Is the ecumenical sort of element that's been infused into it that they join up forces with all kinds of other heretical groups , one being the Catholic Church . And , ray , I just would love for you to touch on that , ray . How repulsive is that to God that we are in some circles that are professing to be evangelicals , acknowledging the Pope as being valid and having biblical authority ?
Speaker 4Yeah , it's a Pandora's box , whatever that is . Yeah , it's full of worms . Sound doctrine is so important . It's like drinking fresh water and just putting in a little poison , and that's what's happening . We talked before about it appealing to the natural man , the flesh . I seem to beat the same drum , but it just seems to be the influence of a gospel that's been insipid , preached over the last hundred years . Instead of saying straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life , and few there be that find it we've said just give your heart to Jesus , and what we've done is opened up the door of the church to false converts that have found themselves in pulpits bringing in false doctrine . What a good point .
Speaker 2Wow , yeah , oh sorry .
Speaker 4No , I'm done . You are not dumb , yeah , oh sorry , no , I'm done .
Speaker 2You are not dumb . Yeah , Done not dumb .
Speaker 2False converts . We've talked about that on the podcast many times . But Mark Judas we talked about him again this morning in our devotion with our leadership team . But Judas , of all of the apostles , may have been the one that would have appeared to have been the most genuine , and yet he was the one that ended up doing the most harm in betraying Christ . And so how do we detect the false ? I mean , sometimes we can't , but what are some of the telltale signs of maybe detecting the false convert ?
Speaker 1Yeah , and take it a step further . How about somebody saying , well , am I part of this organization ? Because there's people that just don't know , because there's a little branch of doctrines or theological things , that kind of creep into the pulpit themselves , or they're part of a youth group and maybe the youth pastor is discipled not by the senior pastor or the official teaching of that church and they're maybe going closer towards , maybe , what Bethel teaches ? How do you know when do you begin ? How do I know if I'm not sitting underneath somebody ? That's Well ?
Speaker 1First of all , do they push a personal experience more than what the Word of God says ? Do you leave a teaching , a gathering , a worship service saying I wish I could worship like him , I wish I could play and sing like him ? Look at the people that are lined up to talk to him . I wish that was kind of me . Right , the focus is kind of off . I wish that I could hear from God the way he hears from God Boy . I wish I could be as happy as him . I mean , they're subtle . They're subtle things .
Speaker 1So if you are part of a service and you're thinking to yourself , well , what happened to just opening up God's word ? When are they going to open up the word of God , or they open up the word and they start off with just a simple text , and then you don't need the word of God next . I'm saying now it's beginning to be a little bit unhealthy . So that's the first thing that I would just kind of throw out there . It's just are they pushing a personal experience over just the Bible , which is our ultimate source of authority ?
Speaker 1Glean from that , because text interprets text and not just hey , I have a great word for you today . This is how you're going to tackle whatever . And then no text is even brought out in the midst of it , and if they do , it's completely taken out of context , or somebody saying something along this lines . Let me read this first , and then I want to hear from everybody what it means to you . Instead of what the text actually says , let's exposit the text . I want to know what it means to you Now . What does it mean to you ? Because it could mean something different to you than it does to him . Right ?
Speaker 3You know , something that I think I really enjoy , and I think it's our hope , the four of us is that we don't like tell people what to think , but we teach people what to think because we all need to be faithful Bereans and have discernment , especially with errors like this , because , to your point , mark , you're not gonna look at the statement of faith of a church and know they're being influenced by NAR , right , like it's not gonna be in there and they don't .
Speaker 2And let me just say they don't necessarily carry that label Like there are some that would even say , no , we're not . What are you talking about ? But that's .
Speaker 3That's how they're defined , based on what they believe in , yeah and , and it's subtle , and sometimes you don't catch it until later
. I'll tell you guys a story . When our kids were , we homeschooled for a few years and then we found this school that we thought was really cool . We really liked the way it was set up , and so , you know , we enrolled our kids in this elementary school . Our kids were like kindergarten , first grade and third grade or whatever the case . And so we show up day one or two , I don't know , first week or whatever , and the principal gets up and they're giving their vision for the , for the school , and then the principal goes . You know , our , our biggest goal here is that we would raise kids up to infiltrate aspects of the culture .
Speaker 3And then they he goes on to name the seven mountains and I was like , I mean , it was like a red flag being right in my head . I was like what ? That ? Like that can't be coincidental . I mean it was the seven mountains , back to back to back , exactly how it's written out . And so we , uh , again , nothing's on their website , anything like that . So I , I scheduled a meeting with him , meet , my wife and I , and we sit down and we're talking . It's small talk and so far , everything sounds good . And then I asked him who are the some of the people that are influencing you most in your life right now , and the names that came out were you know some some of the names that we've already named here .
Speaker 3And that was it was like , okay , that's , that's that you know . And so the point , I guess , is that we need to be faithful Bereans , we need to listen closely and learn to think and test the scriptures with what we hear from from our schools , from our leaders , from our pastors , even .
Speaker 4Did you quietly leave or did you correct them ?
Speaker 3I did try correcting him and it was right after we did our what is the gospel series , and so I gave him actually those . I gave them those CDs . Oh , great yeah .
Speaker 2Yeah , and you know my heart is sympathetic toward some of the believers that are caught up in this Cause . We're not saying there's no genuine believers that might be a part of some of this but they're unsuspecting and that's why we're doing this podcast , because you can hear the whole Seven Mountains thing , you can hear about dominion , you can hear about all the different things that they hold to , and it can sound oh yeah , that sounds good . Yeah , we have influence . And I just wanna be clear again we're not saying , as Oscar referenced , that we're not to have influence as believers and try to get into different sectors , but it's the mindset and perspective that's connected with that and the motive behind it , and so so it is . And the failure to preach the gospel and the failure to preach the gospel Exactly .
Speaker 3Real quick , ray , just cause you asked um , I gave , I gave him the CDs and like a year later someone ran into them and they knew that we were associated and they were like can you tell , Oscar , that those CDs radically changed my view of the Bible ? And then a few years later the school closed down . Now I'm not saying it was because of any of that , but and I haven't talked to them about where they're at in their convictions but hopefully the Lord did something there and that school's no longer around .
Speaker 4God told me that you'd say that .
Speaker 2Thank you , yeah thanks , so yeah , so it is important . And then there are so many bizarre , different things that start to happen in association with some of these things Like what ? Well , there's something that's almost hard to believe , but it's something called grave soaking , and this is where someone is trying to receive anointing from the graves of , like , deceased saints . So you'll get people that will go to graveyards and they'll lay on top of , like , the grave of someone you know , on top of the burial plot , ray , I think you should do that ?
Speaker 2Yeah , can we send you out to do that , ray ? A test , a mission trip of grave , soaking but bizarre things like that . Holy laughter was also associated at one time with this sort of movement .
Speaker 2No , it's not funny at all , but that's what happens . All right , it's like yawning contagious , and all these people start laughing and everyone catches on . And so , again , when you make experience your focus , when you drift away from the Word , when you put the gospel on the back burner or throw it out the window , all sorts of bizarre and weird and harmful and destructive things are gonna crop up .
Speaker 3One of those destructive things I know you guys have heard these stories as well which is people will be going to a church and they're talking about the Holy Spirit impacting your life , about double anointings , and some people are sitting there in the pews and they're like man , I'm not feeling what they're feeling , I'm not able to speak in tongues , I'm not able to get healed , and the reason air quote , the reason why you're not experiencing what everyone else experiences is because you lack faith . That's right , and so many people are wounded because they feel like there's something wrong with them , there's something wrong with their belief . There's something wrong . They are the reason why they weren't healed . They are the reason why they're not hearing from the Holy Spirit . They are the reason why they're not speaking in tongues , et cetera , et cetera . They lack faith and man . That is so antithetical to the promise of the Holy Spirit that God gives us in the New Testament , the priesthood of all believers . It's so antithetical to what we can cling , to knowing that we are actually saved by grace through faith . Amen .
Speaker 2And that's why it's important for us to do a program like this . There are some that are listening right now that have the perspective that we're divisive . Why are you guys talking about this thing ? We're all Christians . Everything is great .
Speaker 2The difference between other secondary issues or secondary issues within the faith and these things is that these things are deeply destructive .
Speaker 2Like Oscar shared , I'm talking lives ravaged where people have been so disillusioned and so broken
for years .
Speaker 2And , having pastored , I've encountered some of those people Like I went to this church and this is and for years they were wandering aimlessly and then they come under sound doctrine and it's like a spring in the midst of a desert , you know , it's like an oasis , and so we just wanna say to those of you out there to open up God's word and look into it and know that our hearts , behind what we share today , is one of love . We care about you and for those of you who may even be leaders caught up in this movement and maybe you didn't even have that name attached to it , but you can associate some of the things we're talking with with what's being taught there . Listen , we're not . You know , we laughed a little bit , we said some different things . We don't mean to be mocking , we're not making light of this . We have compassion toward you and our encouragement is that you repent of these false teachings and come out of that realm and walk under the authority of the Word of God , which is absolutely transformational . Amen .
Speaker 3Amen All right .
Speaker 2Thank you for joining us , friends . We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters Podcast .