Here's the thing about celebrity pastorism is that it's actually , it's everywhere . It's not fair for us to just call out the Carl Lances and the Mark Driscolls , because the reality is that we make celebrities like . There are people who are like I am of John MacArthur , I am of Ken Ham , I am of Mark .
Speaker 2Denver . I'm not of Ken Ham .
Speaker 3I am of Mark Driscoll .
Speaker 1Let's make that clear and what ends up happening is that these people with massive influence they're like they have this gravitational pull , and what happens with other pastors is , when they want their influence to grow , they start man hyping Like you want to grow , as a pastor , your social media influence . Just talk highly of John MacArthur . His following will then become your following . So the reality is that we all end up doing this , and here's the thing , One of my favorite things all end up doing this and here's the thing , one of my favorite things how to combat this and what is a true pastor ? That was your question so good . How to combat this is to build a meaningful relationship with your local pastor .
Speaker 1I love when I talk to a young man and one of the very common questions that I ask him is what are some of the most influential pastors in your life ? And before they name celebrity pastor A , B or C , when they say man , that my local pastor , my youth pastor because here's the reality that online influencer pastor has view counts in mind . That's how he determines what to post and when to post and how to hashtag . Your local pastor has your soul in mind . He knows you , he can serve you , he can pray for you . He'll be there by your loved one's deathbeds . He'll be there for your wedding . He'll be there when you get into an argument with your wife . He'll be there in the hospital when your children are born . If they let him go in the hospital nowadays , the reality is that those are the pastors that you need to gravitate toward so that you could be both known and loved . Wow .
Speaker 3Picture this , friends . He's lean , he's lean , he's mean . He's a 50-pound backpack-carrying machine . Yes , he's Mark Spence , as he trudges through the dry , barren , deadly outback of Catalina Island whilst being chased by ravenous bison . No more expenses were harmed in the making of this audio trailer . Mark pray tell .
Speaker 4You actually did it . I did . It wasn't 50 pounds , it was 40 pounds .
Speaker 3It was less on the way out because I ate the food , that's a good point .
Speaker 4I read that it was like a 2,000 foot elevation gain , which isn't that much , but it's enough to know that I have aches and pains I know not of before this I thought it was 200 feet elevation , gain 2,000 feet and by the way . That's what I read today . That's a lot .
Speaker 3By the way , before we hear the adventures of Mark Spence , let me just say that Oscar and I wisely bailed out of this whole ordeal .
Speaker 1Yeah , why I did not want to bail out of the ordeal .
Speaker 3Yeah well , neither did I , but I wisely did .
Speaker 4It was an eight-mile hike in with a 40-pound pack , and then we went on a hike when we were there , which was crazy . It was like a vertical hike .
Speaker 3So you hiked going in and then you did an additional hike .
Speaker 4Yeah , matt Holmes is crazy , and he's the one that organized this , and his two sons were on bikes bringing all kinds of cargo behind them . Oh , that's right , we had some bikers yeah , ryan was a beast going in and Jack was a beast coming out and carrying all the stuff and they did some spearfishing and caught a lot of illegal fish . Not them , no , their kids were good , they were my kids that were bad .
Speaker 3So , Mark
, okay . So looking back on this , was it good Worth it Fun ?
Speaker 4Yeah , it was totally fun . We're planning and talking about doing a hike from Yosemite Valley to Mammoth , which is several thousand it's like a 7,000 foot elevation gain , wow and it's supposed to be done over several days , up to two weeks . Let's do it right now Up to almost 100 miles .
Speaker 3Right now .
Speaker 4Oscar's ready . Eight to 10 miles a day , oh yeah .
Speaker 3Crazy .
Speaker 2That's exciting .
Speaker 3So was it like you guys because you had said at one point you hardly had any cell service , Were you guys like I had no cell service , I had zero cell service . So you were like literally on the back side of we're on the back side Catalina , away from Avalon , which is kind of the heart of yeah , it's weird , because you see the sun rise instead of what is it ?
Speaker 4From the west to the east ? It's the opposite way here Set to the west rise to the east on a normal Southern California shore . Wow , yeah , that's great .
Speaker 2It was .
Speaker 4It was crazy . Yeah , jerry Blodgett was there . Christian .
Speaker 3Rob was there . Yeah , no , I was really bummed . I didn't end up working out . Yeah , it was insane .
Speaker 4It was one of the hardest things I've done as an adult . Seriously Well , I haven't done much as an adult .
Speaker 3That's crazy . No , it was just hiking . So , Mark , do you guys eat cockroaches ?
Speaker 4No , we ate a lot of fish and steak I saw , so you're actually like grilling fish yeah . Ethan .
Speaker 1Blodgett , you ate like kings dude .
Speaker 4Oh , we really did . Ethan Blodgett caught a fish that was probably at least three feet long . I mean , it was called a sea bass Spear fishing . Yes all spear fishing , all spear fishing . It was fun . I didn't go in the water .
Speaker 3You didn't take your floaties with you .
Speaker 1I didn't take my floaties .
Speaker 3I've seen you in the water that was a good call .
Speaker 4That's exactly right . I'm not much of a swimmer .
Speaker 3Well , we're glad you survived , Mark Any bison .
Speaker 4Did you guys get to wrestle any bison ? We did not see any bison , but we saw plenty of fox , and I don't know what he says .
Speaker 3What does the fox say ? That thing was a hit man .
Speaker 4You remember ?
Speaker 3that .
Speaker 1Oscar .
Speaker 3Yeah , how does it count ? All right , friends , time for a cool , classy comment . This is from James Lyons . Hey y'all , I've been listening to the podcast at the recommendation of a friend and it has been so encouraging . I love the banter between you and also the deep , edifying conversations . Thank you all for what you do for the Lord and easy . Please keep singing . Yeah , I will , ray . Why are you praying ? You'll stop singing . That's what you're pleading for . Thank you , james . Don't worry , brother , the songs will continue to roll .
Speaker 4Well , you know , listen , I have a comment that came in as well . It says I discovered your podcast a little over a year ago and I've been using some of your tracks for our visitor bags at church . I even use some of our YouTube videos for homeschooling . Thank you for your ministry . My husband dislikes it when I put you guys on in the car and it might be because Easy's voice , not sure but he enjoys the YouTube videos and the tracks . I pray God keeps blessing your ministry . God bless you . Blanca , from Modesto California . Wow , what a blessed husband , All right friends .
Speaker 3Now a radically revolutionary resource . This podcast is brought to you by Count your Blessings and Stop Stressing Ray . Were you stressed as you wrote that book ?
Speaker 2That's the most stressed I've ever been in my life Seriously . Horrible experience . Yeah , that's when I vowed , not before the Lord , but to never write another book , but why this one ?
Speaker 3I would have thought . My comfort is Jesus , because it happened .
Speaker 2No , no , no . Don't you remember what happened ? I unwisely wrote four books at once , which isn't hard , but when the editing process came , I was just To have an editor say I want you to change all the chapters from chapter one to chapter 10 . Renew the beginnings and I want the ending like this and there's four books and all of them doing similar things , and I just got really stressed .
Speaker 3But Ray , you had done so many . Oh , you had four going at the same time , four at the same time .
Speaker 2And the last one of those four was count your blessings and stop your silly stressing Fitting .
Speaker 3I know I was talking to a friend the other day who was saying he's been asked to preach on marriage and he's a pastor of a big church . He said he will not do it because he's concerned of what will happen . You know you start getting attacked in your marriage . So it's interesting when you think of the things you end up dealing with as you're focusing on my sermon I'm preparing now is how to remain humble when given a million dollars . Yeah , we all need that .
Speaker 4Why not 10 million ?
Speaker 3Oh , I never thought of that , oh , you have little faith , right ? What fool was .
Speaker 2I yeah .
Speaker 3All right , friends , Today we are talking about You're off your game .
Speaker 1Huh , you didn't tell us the website Website . What website ? Oh , tell us the website Website . What website ? Oh , easy , what is ?
Speaker 2happening to you . How much sleep did you get ?
Speaker 3About three something hours .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , sounds like you did go to here , I was here till like 11 , something Got home . You're at the ministry till 11 . Five you go home . That's about a what half hour drive .
Speaker 3Yeah , then you probably couldn't get to sleep five , yeah , something like that .
Speaker 2You need to get disciplined .
Speaker 3So don't forget , friends , Living Waters Among the Evidence , Study Bible all at livingwaterscom .
Alright , the hidden dangers of celebrity Christianity . Are we idolizing our pastors ? This topic brought to you by Oscar Navarro .
Speaker 2These hidden dangers . I couldn't find any , so I've got no notes . They're all out in the open .
Speaker 3They're all discovered . Oscar , I'm glad you came up with this idea for a topic because this is the era we're living in . You know , it's funny because , I mean , you look at the whole sort of charade today that surrounds a church service in our modern era and I think back to guys like Martin Lloyd-Jones , I think back to like Spurgeon , I think back to I mean , these guys were . They were pulpiteers . They were about preaching the Word . They were about exhorting deep theological truths that shook people to the core and changed their lives .
Speaker 2And a sense of sobriety on the whole service .
Speaker 3Yeah sobriety , and yet not to say that there wasn't any sort of lightness or levity within the sermon , but they had a focus . And today , everything that surrounds the church service typically , and a lot of churches , churches is all about entertainment . And I'd like to start us off there and I'd like to ask you , Oscar this topic was your idea . Would you say that that whole realm adds to the new celebrity pastor type dynamic in our age , that this whole entertainment type of feel , in other words giving rise to that , I absolutely do .
Speaker 1I think that the entertainment value there's almost two different conversations being had the entertainment value of your local church Sunday experience is so man-centered . It's either man-centered on the celebrity pastor or pastor who's there , or it's either way . It's man-centered out of the people walking in and attending the church . It's like the church is asking how can we entertain , how can we get more people here , how can we make them feel comfortable and make them feel like it's ? It's such a man-centered way of operating your Sunday experience rather than starting with the basis . How can we most glorify God ?
Speaker 1And the thing that's most interesting about , before we shift to celebrity pastorism in regards to the entertainment world , is it's actually not working anymore . Like there's so many people that are just so bored with Sunday church experience and if you think about it , it's because you're trying to outperform , out-entertain Taylor Swift , you're trying to outperform , out-entertain Kendrick Lamar , you're trying to outperform , out-entertain your local NBA or NFL sporting team and you're never going to be able to out-entertain them . Your people are going to show up for a short period of time and then they're going to find something better for entertainment . What we need to deliver on Sunday is the gospel , and so , before we even talk about celebrity-ism , that's absolutely at play in this conversation .
Speaker 3Well , it's interesting , oscar , that you said isn't working anymore , and I like that you highlighted that , because pragmatism , I think , is really at the heart of this right .
Speaker 3Let's do what seems to work versus like what does God say to do , and so you're right that there's a time when it'll work . For a while everyone's excited and then people start to see through it . They recognize this is cotton candy and it's dissolving quickly . But , mark , I've heard of churches that before they start a big building project they try to get a commitment from their senior celebrity pastor , oftentimes that he's going to be there for X amount of years because the fear is he'll leave . And now they're stuck with a big mortgage because they know the church will shrink . How sad is that ?
Speaker 4Well , I've not heard that ? Oh yeah , Wow , that's interesting . It doesn't surprise me , right ? I don't know if you guys have heard the podcast the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill , but one of the podcasts is entitled I Am the Brand and in there it tells the story how Mark Driscoll was inside of an elders meeting and one of the staff members had said we have a brand problem . And driscoll's response , reportedly , was I am the brand , to which the staff member said that's our problem . Right , when a celebrity becomes the brand and not Jesus being the one who's lifted up , we have an issue , we have a problem . John Calvin was a very humble man associated with saying a lot of things that he never actually said and did a lot of things that he never actually did , but he was obviously very influential in the Reformation and he insisted on remaining buried in an unmarked grave . He wanted to ensure that after his death , no one would idolize him .
Speaker 2And it's true because I've seen that grave .
Speaker 4It's true , so to this day and it's true because I've seen that grave it's true , right . So to this day , the location is unknown , we don't know . And that's the idea , right . We want to live , we want to preach , we want to point people to Christ , and then we want to be forgotten . Right , that's good .
Speaker 1That reminds me . At Timothy Keller's memorial service , his wife Kathy was like you know . We're not going to tell you where his burial site is , don't go visit , he's not there . Wow , he wanted to make sure you wouldn't visit because he's not there . He's with his Savior . I loved that .
Speaker 3Well , go to where I am and you'll see a gospel message that he's going to put on my tombstone . I'm going to inscribe it with my tape . You know , ray , this is a tragedy today and I think that I think people would want to know , like , if we're headed in this direction , what are the telltale signs . And the thing we're not talking about here is we're not talking about there being a negative element with healthy admiration , like there's nothing wrong with giving your pastor honor or respecting him Commanded to do so actually .
Speaker 3Yeah , right , yeah , give double honor . But how do we know , Ray ? What are the telltale signs that it's starting to drift into idolatry ?
Speaker 2Boy , when you talk about admiring people , I just got to say how much I admire .
Speaker 4All of you , two of you , all of you , two of you .
Speaker 3One of you Now back in the ?
Speaker 21980s I absolutely admired David Wilkerson . I don't know if I've mentioned before , but he wrote a book called the Cross and Switch Blade sold over 14 million copies . They made a major motion picture about him because what he did in New York was just so amazing Walking along the streets and seeing a gang member without shoes and he gave him his shoes and walked on and then he goes to sleep in his car , wakes up in the morning and his wheels are gone . Because this is New York and it's an amazing story . And I remember I wanted to get him to New Zealand to speak . I think early 1980s .
Speaker 2So I called New York two nights running because we didn't have cell phones and you had to operate it and you had to get the timing right because it was in different time zones . Second night I got up . I was up waiting for about an hour to get through , got through to David Wilkerson's secretary and she said Mr Wilkerson's not available and I said but I'm calling from she's not available and that was it . And then go ahead about 15 years when I received a call from David Wilkerson at home because he had heard Hell's Best Kept Secret , flew me to New York , took me to lunch took me through the streets of New York and I got to meet him . I remember having lunch with him and just him and I talking over lunch and thinking this is David Wilkerson , I could reach out and poke his eye out just like that .
Speaker 3I mean , it's the real thing . Are these the dark thoughts of your life ? These are my dark thoughts , because I was Really him and John the Baptist .
Speaker 2I'd choose him because of the menu , wow . But seriously , this is now that what ? 30 years ago , I still get a buzz with the thought of having lunch with him and preaching in his church . So I can understand what it is to admire someone , to honor them , without going silly and making them a celebrity , because that becomes very dangerous . Like when Mark says that guy said I'm the feature , what did you call ?
Speaker 4it .
Speaker 2Yeah , and he said that's the problem . Did that guy get fired ? Because normally you would . When a guy's up that high , what he says goes , and that's a telltale sign when they usurp the word of God , because they're men of authority and admired , unapproachable .
Speaker 3And I think especially in the US . I think the church , sadly , because the world is so influential and we're so impressionable , the church has sort of become a microcosm of the world . I mean even culturally . In America , like , ray , you know , when we go to New Zealand , I mean I would be told stories like the prime minister would walk down the street with everybody , like they would be in the supermarket shopping with their shopping . You know , here , when you think of like celebrities , they got their entourage , they've got their , you know , their bodyguards they've got . So it's kind of like it's drifted into the church and pastors like play into that . So , oscar , I think a good direction to go in now is to talk about what we think a true biblical pastor is according to the word . And how does that differ from the modern celebrity type pastor ? Oh man , that's great .
Speaker 1Well , first , I love what you just said because you're absolutely right . The problem with celebrity pastors is not the pastor , it's our own hearts , because the celebrity , the guy who wants to be a celebrity , the guy who wants to have a big name , the guy who wants to have influence , would have no power over us if we didn't assign power to him . And so what you're tapping into is the reality that we gravitate as human beings . We have to confess this . It's been like this since the beginning of time . We gravitate as human beings . We have to confess this . It's been like this since the beginning of time . We gravitate towards strong men because they make us feel safe . And so you know , 1 Corinthians 3 says this when one says I follow Paul and another I follow Apollos , is that three ? 1 Corinthians , chapter three yeah , three , you said 13 . I said what ? 13. ? That was my Mexican accent . How dare you Again .
Speaker 3I need to put a battle 1 .
Speaker 1Corinthians 3 , verses 4 through 9 . For when one says I follow Paul and another I follow Apollos , are you not being merely human ? What then is Apollos ? What is Paul ? Servants , through whom you believed as the Lord assigned to each ? I planted , apollos watered , but God gave the growth . So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything , but only God who gives the growth . He who plants and he who waters are one , and each will receive his wages according to his labor , for we are God's fellow workers . You are God's field , God's building . Here's the thing about celebrity pastorism is that it's actually , it's everywhere . It's not fair for us to just call out the Carl Lances and the Mark Driscolls , because the reality is that we make celebrities like . There are people who are like . I am of John MacArthur , I am of Ken Ham , I am of Mark .
Speaker 2I'm not of Ken Ham , I am of Mark Driscoll . And what ?
Speaker 1ends up happening is that these people with massive influence they're like they have this gravitational pull , and what happens with other pastors is , when they want their influence to grow , they start man hyping . Like you want to grow , as a pastor , your social media influence . Just talk highly of John MacArthur . His following will then become your following . So the reality is that we all end up doing this , and here's the thing . One of my favorite things how to combat this and what is a true pastor ? That was your question so good .
Speaker 1How to combat this is to build a meaningful relationship with your local pastor . I love when I talk to a young man and one of the very common questions that I ask him is what are some of the most influential pastors in your life ? And before they name celebrity pastor A , b or C , when they say man , that my local pastor , my youth pastor because here's the reality that online influencer pastor has view counts in mind . That's how he determines what to post and when to post and how to hashtag . Your local pastor has your soul in mind . He knows you . He can serve you . He can pray for you . He'll be there by your loved one's deathbeds . He'll be there for your wedding . He'll be there when you get into an argument with your wife . He'll be there in the hospital when your children are born . If they let him go in the hospital nowadays , the reality is that those are the pastors that you need to gravitate toward so that you could be both known and loved .
Speaker 3Wow , that's so good , Mark . When I think of some of the celebrity pastors of our day and age , the first thing that comes to my mind is how would these guys fare in the midst of intense persecution , Because we don't often see these celebrity pastors going off . You know , I think I'm gonna go plant a church in Afghanistan this weekend . We don't normally see that . And what would you say , though , to that , Mark ? I mean , does that speak to maybe kind of the comfort and ease that's associated with it ? Yeah , you might , right .
Speaker 4I mean , listen , we can't just throw them
all out , right ? There are a lot of celebrity pastors that are just walking in their calling , that are difficult to get a hold of unless you are part of their congregation . I , like Oscar had mentioned , if you can't have that relationship with your senior pastor which is very possible because the church is too big , and if he's given over to meeting with all of the flock , when is he going to study and prepare and pray ? So there's youth pastors , there's other sorts of teaching pastors that you can be in touch with . Ray has a very good relationship with his pastor , with Pastor Bruce . He texts us often , he'll come to events with us all the time and he has a very nice-sized church . Pastor Philip DeCourcy same thing . He's a part of our lives , he sends us texts when we travel and he mentions us from the pulpit so that the congregation in totality can pray for us .
Speaker 4Now you do have pastors with huge followings , with millions of people that are subscribed to their feed . That isn't necessarily their fault , right ? And so we can't fault them for something like that . What we need to be careful is idolizing them in such a place that , when they fall , if they fall if they say something that doesn't match up with our theology , we are so quick to discard them and talk bad about them behind their backs . It's been said that a pastor is not the star of the show . Christ is . Fame is the grave of an otherwise faithful servant , and if your faith depends on the reputation of a man , your faith is too fragile . We are not called to build brands . We are called to build the kingdom of God . Amen , right , so that's what we want to do and that's what we trust that pastors are doing . Our hope is not in a pastor . So if he falls , what is the first thing we do ? We don't abandon the faith . Lord , keep me close , I know , but by your grace , that that would be me like that . We take heed , you know , lest we fall .
Speaker 4William Carey he had a very humble legacy , right , he was often called the father of modern missions and he spent decades in India translating the Bible into multiple languages . He downplayed when a fire destroyed his translations , his work when he was translating the Bible , years doing this , and this is what he had said at the end of his life when I'm gone , say nothing about William Carey , speak only about William Carey's Savior so good when he lost his work in the fire . He trust in the sovereignty of God and he started over . That's what he did . He had a high view of God , knowing that God didn't need his work and God didn't need William Carey , that there will always be somebody that can rise up . In fact , he also said He'll be mad about us talking about him .
Speaker 4He said the less said about me , the better , but let my Savior's name be magnified beyond the stars , which reminds us of John the Baptist right .
Speaker 1John 3.30 .
Speaker 4He must increase , but I must decrease .
Speaker 3Yeah , that's what I was just thinking about . As you were talking about that , I was thinking of John the Baptist and his opportunity for the limelight , but that humility of saying no , no , I'm just a forerunner , it's about him . I'm not even worthy to unloose his sandal strap , you know . But , mark , I'm glad you made that differentiation too , because merci beaucoup , because you know , it is important to highlight the fact that , yeah , you can have pastors that are famous we know a lot of them and they're radically being used by the Lord and people know who they are , but they're not in sin , they're walking righteously with the Lord . We're talking , obviously , about the pastor who plays into the celebrity mindset and lifestyle and is acting like a prima donna , you know , in a sense , yeah , like Oscario , and has no reason to do it . That's the weird thing about it . But anyway , I want to say something else . But , ray , you were going to say something . I forgot what it was . Come on , ray , no it's gone .
Speaker 2It was over in the back file , but the file's missing .
Speaker 3I'm so sorry . Just make it up . Just make it up . Oh yeah , no .
Speaker 2I think when we mentioned before I'm of Paul , I'm of Apollos , it says at the beginning of that portion of Scripture , verse 12 , there are contentions among you . Now I say this , that each one of you says I'm of Paul , I'm of Apollos . What are the contentions ? The contentions are if you say I'm of him , that means you think that guy's not as good as this guy and you're creating divisions within the church . You're bringing pride in and that church is going to split if that carries on .
Speaker 3You know , guys , honestly , as we're talking about this , the word that just keeps pumping in my brain is gross . I mean , it's just like when you see everything that's associated with it and I'm not saying this because I'm immune I've had lots of moments of pride in my heart where I've had to repent .
Speaker 4Like what am I ?
Speaker 3thinking .
Speaker 2What's it I mean ? Just the fact that I'm better than all of you guys all the time and the 17 mirrors in your office All the time and the 17 mirrors in your office .
Speaker 3Oh yeah , but no , I mean , you know , it's just Because here's my problem . I don't often look at sin from God's perspective .
Speaker 1That's your only problem . Yeah , that's it .
Speaker 3That's the only thing I have to overcome . But you guys remember , right David , after he sinned , what Nathan said to him you've given the enemies of God an occasion for blasphemy , to blaspheme His name , like we need to see sin from the perspective of a holy God . And you're looking at this little pipsqueak walking around the planet , strutting like a rooster .
Speaker 3When he's microscopic on this planet , it's so good and thinking he's something Like Paul said what do you have that you didn't receive ? And if you received it , why do you boast as if you didn't Like you know the people who say , oh , god didn't give me this , I did . Yeah , you created your own brain and your own hands and your own mouth , and so I don't know , ray , it just grosses me out .
Speaker 2Yeah , do you guys ever feel small Sometimes I ?
Speaker 4do Really .
Speaker 1We'll talk about it .
Speaker 2Sometimes I just feel really , really small , and it's a good perspective to have of yourself . You look at the heavens and pull back and then you just think what a time you are and what a difference it would make if someone squashed you . And no difference at all , really .
Speaker 1Yeah it's so true . Yeah , I think you're absolutely right and I would just in regards to this idea of the pastor who has notoriety , who has an incredible ministry , that's faithful , the problem with them being a celebrity pastor isn't in what they're doing , and it isn't even in if they fall . The problem of celebrity pastors is what we do in our hearts with them . So , even the most faithful , most influential , who ends his life which many do who ends their ministry and go to their deathbed , having been faithful through and through , we can still turn them or position them in such a way that in our own hearts it's a problem . And I think we've been doing this since the beginning .
Speaker 1We all want kings and prophets and I think some part of us is like man if he's close to God and I'm close to him , then I'm close to God . If he's got it right and I agree with him , then I've got it right . And the problem with that is that we turn you know , name your favorite pastor I love . There's this one quote that I read one time . It said no one likes a celebrity pastor . Yet everyone has their favorite celebrity pastor , because the problem is that we turn them into prophets , priests , kings of our own lives and we forget the reality that , like the closeness , the nearness that we have to God is through his son Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit , not because we follow and agree with our favorite pastor .
Speaker 4So where do we go from here ? Where do we go and stop idolizing pastors ? What are some very practical steps that we can do ? Ez what ?
Speaker 3do you think ? Well , I think , first and foremost , we have to be wise enough to recognize and remember that the best of men are men at best and that they are flawed like
we are . I mean , you know , sometimes we look at the heroes of the faith like the real celebrities , like Peter and Paul , and you know the Old Testament prophets of Judas . Is that your hero , ray ? The truth comes out .
Speaker 2He's the one that's taught me what not to do . Oh , that's good , huge lesson .
Speaker 3Yeah , but I mean , even like , take Peter as an example , right ? I mean Peter the great apostle , peter denying Christ three times ? Oh well , he didn't have the Holy Spirit yet , or whatever argument is given . Okay well , how about Galatians 2 ? Peter the great apostle being a hypocrite as it related to the gospel and had to be rebuked to his face by Paul . Oh , king David , ooh man , after God's own heart commits adultery . We just have to snap out of this . Like this guy is , oh , he's flawed , he's sinful , which means what he needs prayer . I bet you a lot of people who follow celebrity pastors don't pray for them because subconsciously they're convinced and they don't need prayer . But who are the ones that we keep seeing fall ? The celebrity pastors that are giving into sexual morality , that are involved in financial improprieties , right ? So I think we have to remember that , first and foremost , pray for them . And , ray , I would ask you if someone is looking for a church and they're trying to examine the leadership , what , what should they be looking for in those leaders ? What kind of qualities ?
Speaker 2Harry treats his wife as humility of heart . Wow , what a start . Whether or not their money oriented to , they preach Christ crucified . Have they got a deep concern for the lost ? Because that's , that's the essence of love . If you forget the lost , you forgot why you exist as a church , tabernacle of witness in the wilderness . And I often think , does the modern church read the book of Acts ? It doesn't seem to , because the church , wherever it went , was preaching Christ crucified at the peril of their lives . So that's what should be central in every church .
Speaker 3I want to do something that I know Ray's not going to be very happy about , but I'm going to do it . We were sent this video of this sister who recently went online and just shared her experience with Ray . Ray's a celebrity , let's be honest about it . I just want you guys to listen to this .
Speaker 4Well , so is Benji and Mr Ed .
Speaker 5Ray Comfort and Living Waters . They had me come out to California to film a segment for their Wave , the Master show , on aliens and alien abduction . Mind you , ray Comfort does not know me . I was just the alien girl that was coming out to talk about my experiences before I was saved with aliens and alien abduction . Ray Comfort treated my husband and I like we were the king and queen of England . He treated us like he was blessed to meet us . He was so loving not just Ray Comfort , but the director , producer , the team , the cameramen , the audio guys . It was like being with a family , my family .
Speaker 5I was supposed to go to the studio after we did the segment on the Huntington Beach Pier to record another part . Ray Comfort was like oh , I'm so sorry no one will be there . I'd love to give you a tour . And then just decided you know what ? I'm just going to come anyway and give you a tour . He challenged my husband to a ping pong match . He gave us a tour of the office , the studio , along with all these practical jokes . He's hilarious , the man is hilarious . He gave us gifts like was just here , do you want this ? You want this ? All the while making jokes , he let us sit in the recording studio and take pictures with them . When I tell you we left that experience , it felt like my jaw was just on the floor . I was so humbled by his humility and by his hospitality and how the way that he treated us made us feel so loved and so honored . It really made me rethink the way that I treat other people , and so that's my shocking experience with Ray Comfort .
Speaker 3I couldn't get through it without the tears again .
Speaker 1I showed that to my kids last night .
Speaker 3Every time I play it . You know , I played it to our leadership team yesterday , as you guys know , or the day before , and it was so cool because Daniel was in there and he goes . That's exactly who he is . Your own son would say that . So , Ray , talk to us about how great you are . Please tell us .
Speaker 2No , seriously , I didn't do anything special . I played ping pong and I wanted to win , so that's not a humble See how much more .
Speaker 3I admire him . With that humility . I can't win no , but praise the Lord . Ray , this is what we know of you , and this is what leaders' hearts should be like . This is what our demeanor should be like . Listen to 1 Peter , 5 , 1 to 4 . Wow , you guys didn't do it the first time . You guys did that Try again .
Speaker 3Unbelievable . 1 Peter 5 , 1 to 4 . There we go , the elders who are among you . I exhort , I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed . Shepherd , the flock of God which is among you , serving as overseers , not by compulsion , but willingly . Not for dishonest gain , but eagerly , not as being lords over those entrusted to you , but being examples to the flock . And when the chief shepherd appears , you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away . I love that .
Speaker 1Let me say something I wasn't planning on saying , which is , you know , I've had two pastors now disqualify themselves , personal pastors Most recently , the last one within the last year , which was really tough on me and my family and I was just sharing this with someone the other day which is that , having gone through that , it's made me appreciate you three guys all the more . It's made me appreciate you three guys , all the more it's made me appreciate you guys for your faithfulness to your family , to each other , to God's calling on your lives . To be able to be alongside you guys for the last 10 years and see what you do in secret and have it be the same as what you do in public , it's made me appreciate and just look up to you guys in a whole new way , especially coming out of the last year , and that kind of goes to what we're saying . Like you know , you asked earlier what can we do ? Let me say it again we need to gravitate towards our local pastors and you're right , that could be an elder , it doesn't have to be your head pastor , depending on the context of your church , but you should know them . I love what you said earlier See how they treat their wives , see how they spend their money , know them .
Speaker 1You know , in the New Testament , jesus talked about being his disciple , him being our rabbi . When you had a rabbi in the New Testament , you did everything with them . You slept when they slept . You ate when they ate . You traveled with them . Everything because you got to know them . And the dust from their sandals would be all over you , and the reason why poets talk about that is because their fruits would become your fruits by following them as they followed Christ . And so what can we do , man ? We need to be in relationship with local pastors more than we celebrate celebrity pastors .
Speaker 3Wow , that's so good , oscar . Yeah , and we have to remember too the call of Christ on the leader you know and I mean Ray made a good point there how does he treat his wife ? Because that's the person he's most comfortable with and who we are in private , when we're most comfortable , least self-conscious , there's no one to impress . That is who we are Like when young people are telling me I want to get married . First question how do you treat your brothers and sisters ? What's your attitude toward your parents ? You have roommates . How do you treat your roommates ? Because that's who we really are , not the person who's putting the best foot forward because they're trying to impress someone or there's a reputation at stake , but behind the scenes , when you're not thinking , you're not self-conscious , you're comfortable , that's really who we are , and so I think that's key . Who we are , you know , and so I think that's that's key for leaders . Ray , yes , men , being surrounded by , yes , men is a big danger that's very frightening .
Speaker 2Yeah , and that's what I like about you guys you're not afraid to tell me to shut up shut up ray , be quiet . I have something I need to now it's really good , because you really don't want yes , men , I mean we . We think we do , but we don't in the long run because you want what's right , and so let the righteous smite me . It should be pleasant oil . That should be the attitude of a leader .
Speaker 3Wow , Mark . Lack of accountability for pastors .
Speaker 4Yeah , and it's understandable , right ? Because you have a pastor who maybe dips into a benevolent fund or sees something he shouldn't see , or does something he shouldn't do , and he feels like there's nobody to talk to , not knowing because he's never confessed anything like that or he's never seen somebody in another congregation confess that , or maybe he did see somebody confess something like that and immediately he was ostracized , kicked out and people had nothing to do with him . Now what's he going to do ? Go become a real estate agent . And there's this fear that is gripping him because , well , after all , maybe God isn't my provider , I'm my own provider and there's only one thing I know how to do .
Speaker 4So there is a real danger with senior pastors not having accountability and this is where Tripp's book is . It Ted Tripp , paul Tripp I get tripped up with their names with a dangerous calling , but he deals with this subject that pastors are so untouchable and they don't know where to go when they mess up even in the slightest . So then they just try to tackle their issues and their problems all by themselves . And I've noticed that as I travel I'll see senior pastors and people open up to me . Perhaps it's easier to open up to a stranger than those closest to them , and there's an issue with that . So we need to have that accountability , absolutely .
Speaker 4Matthew 23 , 12 says whoever exalts himself will be humbled , and whoever humbles himself will be exalted . And I think that , pastors , it starts with in front of your congregation , maybe in front of your family first , and then the congregation that , listen , I have not attained , I have not arrived , I have not made it . I am a saint who occasionally sins . Right , I'm somebody who has blown it and I'm just like you . I need your help and I need my hope in Christ and I need forgiveness found in Him alone , and I need you to pray for me . I'm a big blow it , but I have a big savior who's big enough for the job . Yeah , dude .
Speaker 1I'm . I'm so glad you said that , mark . You know , unfortunately I was a part of someone disqualifying themselves and remember at one point we were writing up a statement to the church and this person was like hey , can we not call it a sin ? Can we call it a moral failure ? And I was like bro , why are you playing with this ? You know what I mean , but we see that all the time .
Speaker 1If you go back and you look at statements that churches put out there , it's never the pastor never sins . It's always a moral failure , a lapse in judgment . It's like these pastors can talk about the sin of David . They can talk about sins in the New Testament . They can talk about sins when it comes to their homosexual neighbors from the pulpit , but when it comes to their own sins , suddenly it's just a moral failure , it's just a lapse in judgment . Like stop playing , dude , I love what you're saying . Like approach God's word with humility . Reveal your life to the members of your church for accountability and judgment , if necessary , that your soul is at stake here , not keeping your job . Forget keeping your job . Your soul is at stake here .
Speaker 4So what ? So , okay , I'd love to flesh this out for just a minute . Easy , I'd love for you to address this
. So what does a senior pastor do if he finds himself on that pinnacle saying I've looked at something I shouldn't have , or I've done something , or I've said something and I fear the future , and I know that I should say something to someone . Where do I begin with that ?
Speaker 3You begin with your wife and you open up to your wife and you bring her into your world because , most likely , that sin was hidden . And so you would go to the person closest to you and you would break down that barrier that has isolated you . Because when you're living in sin and you're not open about it and nobody knows about it , you've built a whole fortress around yourself and , man , you're in that fortress and now you're in there with the enemy of your soul , with no one able to come in from the outside and help you . So tell your wife and destroy that fortress and then , from there , open yourself up to your leadership and let them know . It depends on what it was , you know , but if it's like a serious moral failing or , of course , something like that , you've got to open up to your leadership and let them know .
Speaker 3And that's the thing right . Because if you're holding on to that celebrity , power and fame that you love , well , your concern is going to be how can I keep it ? If your heart is , how can I be right with the Lord , then nothing's going to stop you from being open . So , but I understand , I know there's dilemmas . I don't want people to scatter , I don't want to Listen . The God who saved those people will keep those people . You're not doing him any favors by living in sin and hiding it and not being open and getting the help that you need .
Speaker 4And the God who's provided for you in the pastoral ship , will provide for you outside of the pastoral ship . He's going to be faithful to provide for you . We consider foxes have holes , the birds of the air have nests , and the Lord says , hey , I will supply your every need , you don't need to worry about that . God is more concerned with holiness and righteousness than you trying to get yourself out or protecting yourself by not admitting and confessing to whatever hole you've dug yourself into .
Speaker 3Yeah , ray , pastors , people don't think about this oftentimes . Like you have the pastor of the church , he's ministering to everybody . Everybody's attending church but he's serving . They have small groups and life groups . The pastor isn't usually part of those . He's wasted on Sunday night because he's been preaching many times , usually Sunday morning , especially in a big church . What about soul care for the pastor ? What do you recommend for the pastors that are listening now that are like how do I keep myself from getting there ? How do I keep my soul protected and feed myself spiritually ?
Speaker 2You have fellowship with other pastors . It's great when pastors gather together . In fact , we have outreach to local churches because we want to meet the pastors and minister to them and be friends with them . But I think that's the key . And also we're seeing the fruit in modern Christendom of a lawless gospel that's been preached for years and filled our church with false converts , filled our pulpits with false apostles and false preachers and false teachers . And when a pastor falls , I just think where is the fear of the Lord when he doesn't know where to go ? What's wrong with your closet ? Get on your knees before the Lord , confess and forsake your sins and be open with your church and be transparent , and I think it's as simple as that . Cultivate the fear of the Lord and that's what's been missing in many of our pulpits .
Speaker 3Amen , Mark . Was it Ravenhill that said ? A pastor who isn't praying is playing .
Speaker 4Oh , it sounds like something he would say .
Speaker 3Yeah something like a pastor that isn't praying is playing . A congregation that isn't praying is straying . You know , and I think that's so key because here's my thought A first telltale sign that a pastor whether in the celebrity realm or not , or whatever is headed in a dangerous direction is he's lost his devotional life . He doesn't have the prayer closet , he's not seeking God fervently from his heart , he doesn't intercede for others , he's not bringing his burdens to the Lord , he's not asking God to search him and try him , and he's not reading the word devotional . He's just studying to teach and even in that he's not applying it to his . I love the pastors that say I'm asking myself Lord , where am I in this ?
Speaker 2First of all , preaching it to myself , you wonder if they've ever seen their sin in this true light , because my big enemy is me . I'm always looking at my own heart and saying I didn't even want to say it . We can tell you yeah , it was .
Speaker 4Leonard Ravenhill .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 4He said , a pastor who isn't praying is playing . The church is dying on its feet because it's not living on its knees , oh yeah .
Speaker 3It was good with those pithies , yeah , you know , I was texting with a pastor friend actually last night and I love this guy because his story is His story is you love the sky ?
Speaker 1Yeah , you don't love the sky , oh you hate , the sky right , okay , you can't even get through a story .
Speaker 3So this pastor had a small church 100 , 120 , 30 people , something like that .
Speaker 2Relatively small . Right , You've got to go and visit New Zealand .
Speaker 3It's like 35 people .
Speaker 2We live in California 65 in America we had nine on a Sunday night and the lady that played the piano was sick .
Speaker 3Okay . So he had relatively a smaller church out here in California and he was just doing his thing . He ends up asking a pastor of a mega church to come speak at their church . He comes , he speaks , they build a friendship and then this pastor who's you know who was older , I think close to 70 , he ends up deciding that he wanted to , you know , bring someone else in and fade away from the pulpit , retire in a sense , but go do other ministry . So anyway , this ends up happening and this guy suddenly finds himself the pastor of a church of about 6,000 , 7,000 people that's the comparison right From 120 to 6,000 people .
Speaker 3And we were just texting last night and just talking about look what God has done in our lives through the ministry here and what I'm doing , we're doing what he's doing , the impact he's having . And again he reminded me of something I had shared with Him , and that is the thing you guys are all familiar with . It's not original , but we're turtles sitting on fence posts . We're turtles on fence posts . If you see a turtle on a fence post , you know it didn't climb up on its own . Someone had to put it there . And I think that's the key for pastors to remember and for congregants to remember . If you're a pastor , he didn't get himself there . The Lord did , and so recognize it . The glory goes to the Lord , the praise goes to the Lord , the thanks goes to the Lord , trust goes to the Lord .
Speaker 3My heart breaks when I hear about these churches that are like , yeah , when this pastor dies , the church is probably going to fold like mega churches . What are the people being taught ? Are they not taught that we are a body here ? It's not about this one man , you know . So , yeah , I think it's key . And you know it all goes back to what Christ taught Mark 9 , you know , and Matthew 20 . You know , if you want to be the greatest , you know he who's the greatest among you would be the last , the least , the servant of all .
Speaker 3At Philippians 2 , the mind of Christ , being the form of God , made himself of no reputation , taking the form of a bondservant and coming in the likeness of men . I mean Jesus gave us that perfect example . And then , for those of you listening , I'd encourage you if you're looking for a church with healthy leadership , look at 1 Timothy 3 , verses 1-7, . Titus 1 , 5-9 . Those are the qualifications of a pastor and elder and leader . So examine that . Find out if they have accountability , find out if they are men whose families are in order , as the Scripture talks about . Are they humble , are they meek , are they self-deprecating ? I think that's big too , where they're able to just yeah , look and say , hey , I'm nobody and it's all about Christ . Amen , amen , amen . All right , friends , that does it . Another one for the history books . Don't forget , count your blessings and stop stressing . By the way , it's a 365-day devotional . The Living Waters Mug , the Evidence Study Bible , all at livingwaterscom .
Speaker 2And get your turtle on a fence post . We should sell those turtles on fence posts .
Speaker 3And don't forget , friends , podcasts at livingwaterscom . We want to hear from you . Thank you for joining us , friends . We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters Podcast , where we still , after all these years , have no idea what we're doing .