In Acts 5 , peter and the apostles answered we must obey God rather than men . There comes a time where we have to stand up for what we believe to be true . We have to stand upon what we've learned . Maybe we're all familiar with it , but the White Rose Resistance Group , seth Gruber , had started a ministry , if you would , that kind of goes in that realm of standing up for the pre-born , having a voice for them . But , sophie Skoll , she's the one who the ministry is based on . She said stand up for what you believe in , even if you're standing alone . That we must come to our own conclusion and stand with it . Right . Just because I might have a different conviction than you have , I would now be in sin if I were to do anything else , because whatever's not a faith is sin . And now there's a greater issue in the midst of it right . So just because you can or I can't stand on the laurels of somebody else's conviction doesn't mean that one is right or necessarily wrong .
Speaker 1Name that show Na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na , na , na , na , na , na , na , na na na , na , na , na , na , na , na na na na na na na na na na , na , na , na na na na na na na , na , na , na , na , na , na na na na na na na , na , na , na , na , na na na na na na , na , na , na , na , na , na , na , na , na , na , na , na , na na na na na na na , na , na , na , na , na , na , na , na , na , na , na na na na na . In the actual show .
Speaker 4Mission Impossible .
Speaker 2You don't remember what's happening now . What's happening ?
Speaker 4What's happening .
Speaker 2Then they came up with a sequel . What's Happening Now ? Remember Faintly Rerun ? Oh yeah , the big guy and Raj . Yeah , what he's like , yeah , remember , everyone remembers that . How do you guys not know what's happening ? I have a life . Know what's happening , I have a life , oh , get with it . That's another one , okay , let me see Let me see Wait for it , it's the same one .
Speaker 3It's the same one .
Speaker 2Come on .
Speaker 1Created some American .
Speaker 2Hero no Golden .
Speaker 1Spins .
Speaker 2Just a good old boy , dukes of Hazzard , yeah .
Speaker 4Oh , that one didn't sound like Dukes of Hazzard . I used to watch that Started getting through my car window when I got .
Speaker 1No , that can be it , mark . From Mark , what Happy Days .
Speaker 2Laverne and Shirley . Oh yeah , happy Days was happy days one o'clock no , no two o'clock . That's like a song . Sunday , monday , happy days tuesday okay , but when ? You guys hear those songs , doesn't it just bring up nostalgia yeah , makes you feel sick , not when you do it . I like the um , nausea , um , what was what ? What were some of your go-to like sitcoms growing up ? You were probably , you were , uh , probably saved by the bell kind of guy different strokes uh , I love .
Speaker 3Lucy was like one of my favorite girls actually I love , isn't it ?
Speaker 2amazing how old that is , but it's still like my kids . Yeah , kylie loves it like the queen of comedy .
Speaker 4Man , she's so amazing yeah , yeah , kirk was invited to meet her , but he didn't want to go and see her because he didn't know who she was . No , that's right , yeah , you never heard that story .
Speaker 2His mom comes to his trailer and there was a big event going on and she's like Kirk Lucille Ball's outside . She wants to talk to you and he goes tell her I'm busy .
Speaker 4She wants to meet you .
Speaker 2That's wild .
Speaker 4Tell her I'm busy him . And there's . You are going to see lucille . I was having dinner at kirk's place and there's a picture on the wall and there was a picture in a drawer . I was going through this drawer with permission not through the medicine picture of kirk standing there with uh , ronald reagan , lucille ball .
Speaker 2And yeah , that was the event .
Speaker 3Yeah , yeah , reagan was there yeah yeah , I don't know who kirk cameron is but lucille ball .
Speaker 2Yeah , that's crazy , boy k Kirk had the world by its tail , didn't he ? Yeah , I mean he was , he would have probably been , wouldn't you say , mark , maybe top three like of that time teenage heartthrobs , definitely .
Speaker 1In fact I had asked him , you know , I mean , how popular were you ? And he said well , listen , I've never met Britney Spears , but I could probably get together and have lunch with her next week .
Speaker 3I actually made a point . I went to a Christian retreat high school students it was amazing Rose Hill Christian Church in Texas . Shout out to those guys , man . All those kids were amazing . But anyways , I made a point that I I said show of hands , who remembers the name of their great great grandfather ? And out of 150 , 200 students , like two raised their hands . And then I said , okay , show of hands , who knows who ? Kirk cameron is ? Zero hands raise their hands . And I made the point kirk cameron was like the Justin Bieber of like the 1940s or whatever it was , 40s Exactly .
Speaker 1I'm joking .
Speaker 3I said . But here's the point is like , no matter how hard you work , no matter how famous you think you could become , you could be the next Justin Bieber and in 30 years no one will remember you . Your great great grandchildren probably won't remember your first name .
Speaker 4However , Judas wrecked that . Judas wrecked that .
Speaker 3However , instead of I made the point instead of trying to build up our own human kingdom , we can raise up the fame in the name of Jesus Christ .
Speaker 4Right , that's a good point .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 2I was trying to think who my great-great-grandpa would be and I thought my dad was 113 .
Speaker 1It was him , george .
Speaker 2Washington . That's crazy .
Speaker 4Yeah , it was John Wayne . He's in Airport , isn't he in California ?
Speaker 2Oh , yeah , that's right . Yeah , it is crazy when you think about that and the things we don't remember . It's hard to think about the things you don't remember , the reason I said that is that there was something I was going to say and I don't remember what it was , do you ?
Speaker 3ever think about the things you don't remember .
Speaker 2Yeah , all right , it's time for a cool , classy comment . This is from Fraser Nelson . Nice and simple , nice and simple , nice and simple . Fraser from Australia Great job . I've begun my journey to Christ thanks to you guys . Keep up the great work .
Speaker 3God bless , fraser , let's go . That's so Australian , by the way .
Speaker 2Oh , my goodness , what would be sweeter than an email like that . Thank you so much , fraser , and keep going . Keep pursuing the Savior . And now a radically revolutionary resource . This podcast is brought to you by again , again , yes , yes , yes , again . Living Waters TV . Ray , you like Living Waters TV ?
Speaker 4I like the sound of it . It sounds fresh and nice which it is .
Speaker 2What is it ? What's on it ? I don't know . It's all sorts of stuff . Yeah , access to our Living Waters Equip with answers to questions from respected voices Every episode of the Way of the Master . Exclusive access to the next season . I've been hearing people talking about man . I've been watching the seasons from the past . Exclusive original and new documentaries . Access to our unaltered YouTube library without pesky advertisements . Pre-release access to watch the Living Waters podcast . That's a big incentive for you listeners . You get to actually see me .
Speaker 3Me , me , a week in advance , me , yeah , what's that about A week in advance ? Yeah , so , for example , today's episode , if you're listening to it the day it came out , it came out a week ago on livingwaterstv .
Speaker 4So if you want to , watch us a week in advance . Today's episode came out a week ago , I know right . I'm just recording it now . That's amazing , that's amazing .
Speaker 2Yeah , and you also get to see the National Bible Bee Competition hosted by Emil Zane . Yeah , you get to see those episodes . That was fun .
Speaker 4And behind the scenes , which is exclusive .
Speaker 2That's right Race stuff , and it's available on Roku , apple TV , fire TV , android apps and iOS apps , so make sure to check it out Along with the Living Waters mug . Why are you smiling , mark ?
Speaker 1Because I remember you asking can I watch it on my ?
Speaker 3For those who don't know .
Speaker 2Easy is technologically challenged .
Speaker 3What's technology mean ? I don't know easy is technologically challenged . What's technology mean ? I don't know that was funny .
Speaker 2Anyway , friends , don't forget Living Waters and the Everett Study Bible . Living Waters , Living Waters . Yeah , and today we have a special guest in our studio .
Speaker 1Her name is Elaine let's go Executive assistant here at Living .
Speaker 2Waters . Big blessing to us and a big fan of Diedrich Bonhoeffer , thanks for joining us , lane .
Speaker 4She asked Lane .
Speaker 2She did . What a blessing . Yeah , what a blessing . All right , friends , as you heard , today we're talking about Diedrich Bonhoeffer , which Mark spelled wrong earlier on a slate to died rich Bonhoeffer , and the dilemmas Christians face in time .
Speaker 4Time Switch . The I and the E Didn't you have an electrician at your church . What was ?
Speaker 2his name oh get rich , oh rich , Not get rich . Oh yeah , Me too what ?
Speaker 4was his name .
Speaker 2His name was Rich Quick .
Speaker 4Rich Quick , rich Quick , yes , and you'd say , hey , get Rich Quick , I got a problem .
Speaker 2That's what his wife said . She got Rich Quick , yeah . So anyway , guys , diedrich Bonhoeffer , you know , as soon as I hear that name , immediately , you know , you hear names and they conjure things
up . I just think courage , I think bravery , I think love for Christ . But as I've been exploring him even more , getting ready for the podcast , I didn't even scratch the surface on the depth of this man and the massive impact that he's had . Our good friend that Ray actually went on his program . Our friend Eric Metaxas he's my tax man , he does , metaxas .
Speaker 4I wonder if he's ever heard that before .
Speaker 2I know People try to do that on me . Take it easy Like I've never heard it . Anyway , diedrich Bonhoeffer was really covered well by Eric Metaxas . I mean , it's become probably one of the most popular books on him within Christianity , I would say , and I think he did a good treatment . I was able to glean a little bit from him on some of the things that I discovered about him . But , bonhoeffer if anyone wants to give us some insight on him , to kick us off rather than me continuing to talk and talk and talk Oscar .
Speaker 3Mark Dietrich Bonhoeffer is . Yeah , I've read a few of his books or what have been accompanied to be considered books . So the Cost of Discipleship is one of them . I have not read that one , but I did read Life Together , which is incredible , and I also read Letters and Papers from Prison , which is incredible . And I also read letters and papers from prison , which is really good . I finished Eric Metaxas' book years ago , which got me interested in Dietrich Bonhoeffer , and then I read I'm going to butcher this name , but the official biographer there's a ton of biographies on Bonhoeffer . The official one is by Ferdinand Schleichenstein . I'm not even close .
Speaker 3But you know there is a difference between reading like when a Christian or a pastor writes a book about like a historic figure . It's actually I learned this new phrase it's called a hagiography , which is like this . It's like a biography feed that idealizes a person . When you read a historian's version of a person or event , you get like a really complex figure . And that would be my takeaway from Ferdinand's book is that Dietrich Bonhoeffer is a complex figure . He had a deep devotion for the Lord . He struggled with anger issues . He was a conflicted man . He was a deep devotion for the Lord . He struggled with anger issues . He was a conflicted man . He was a man who was engaged to a woman and never even got to spend a day with her outside of prison . Essentially , they never got married Half his age , by the way . Yeah , yeah , again , a man of conflict Like .
Speaker 3He was a member of the Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem , which was an all-black congregation . Imagine a German theologian going to worship at an all-black congregation . I love that . So he was a complex figure . That wasn't perfect by any means . And then he was complex in the fact that he talked about being a pacifist , yet he was involved in a plot to assassinate Hitler . So he's a fascinating figure that I can't get enough of as well .
Speaker 2Yeah , so Bonhoeffer . For those of you that do not know , as Oscar alluded to , he was a German pastor , theologian , and a key figure in resisting the Nazi regime . This is during World War II .
Speaker 4And he was hanged .
Speaker 2Yeah , that's right , 1906 to 1945 was his lifespan and I think that the devotion and dedication that he had for Christ is what I think has elevated him to being so intriguing . Because of what you said , oscar , there seems to be a conflict . Right , I mean , he's trying to knock out Hitler , but he's a theologian and a pastor and I'm excited to talk about , kind of his spiritual roots , especially what happened in New York when he came out here . But , ray , you were especially excited to talk about this episode . Hey , we're going to talk about Bonhoeffer .
Speaker 4No , I wasn't doing any study on Bonhoeffer . I didn't do a minute on him . What I did was how would we reply to Nazis who came to the door and said are there Jews in this home ?
Speaker 2Yeah , because that's what we're going to be talking about as well . The dilemma of what do you do right ? And this is a question that a lot of Christians are faced with in terms of a dilemma brought up what do you do ? Do you lie ? Is it a lie ? Is it not a lie ? Do you hide them , do you not ? Was Corrie Ten Boom an evil , wicked , nasty woman , or did she do what was right and righteous ?
Speaker 4So yeah , I've been thinking about this for about 40 years and I still haven't come to a conclusion . Seriously about what no about the whole thing ? Do you lie to the Nazis come ? To the door . Your wife is a Jew , isn't she ? Is she hiding in this house ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I'm so excited we're we can talk about it . What are you talking about ? Yes , we do and we could talk about it , so I tried to hold it , but we talk about it in love and in a civil way , and always be suspicious if those that are close always agree on everything . You should really be suspicious . So it's good to have some differing views on secondary , tertiary issues . So we may end up there today We'll see
. I don't know , but I'm excited we're going to talk about this .
Speaker 4We better come to a conclusion , otherwise you're going to get a call from me , easy . There's a couple of Nazis in my front door and they're asking me if I'm .
Speaker 1Jewish .
Speaker 4What do I say ? I haven't worked it out yet . What do I ?
Speaker 1say I know I have an opinion on that . I'd love to answer that .
Speaker 2Yeah , Mark , I'm excited to hear you . I think I've heard you share some of that before it's worth sharing again , but yeah , so again a little more on Bonhoeffer and kind of what he did .
Speaker 4What does the name Bonhoeffer mean in English ? I've tried to find it and I can't find it Bon with offer . That's exactly what I came to the same conclusion . Seriously what does it mean ? I have no idea . I can look it up .
Speaker 2You won't find anything . It might mean nothing . Everything says .
Speaker 1German theologian .
Speaker 4It doesn't say the meaning of the word , no matter how specific you are Lane .
Speaker 2do you know what Bonhoeffer means ?
Speaker 3Oh , even the legendary Lane doesn't know Side note which oftentimes when people write about history we over-dramatize it , but actually his death is not over-dramatized . Did you know that they killed him 11 days before that area of Germany was ? Free , he was 11 days away from freedom .
Speaker 2Yeah , isn't that wild . I mean , one biographer said that he could hear the gunshots of the Americans coming , but Hitler being as petty as he was because , again , he was in prison for a long time . But he said kill everyone that came against him .
Speaker 4They did the same thing with concentration camps Slaughter them before the Americans could .
Speaker 2Yeah , the same thing with concentration camps , slaughter them before the Americans could . Yeah , so Bonhoeffer came from a very sort of sophisticated type family . They were all like kind of prodigies in his family .
Speaker 3Like us .
Speaker 2Yeah , like me , his dad was a scientist . I think he was one of the most foremost in Germany . One of his brothers worked on stuff with Einstein , all of them were just really smart . He had a twin sister .
Speaker 3Identical Deidre .
Speaker 2I'm sure people ask that .
Speaker 2I have a twin sister Identical , yeah , and so you know . She actually married a man of Jewish descent . He was a believer but he was from a Jewish heritage and so , bonhoeffer , his dad was agnostic , his mom seemed to be a devout Christian . He had a couple of governesses that raised them . They were believers and it influenced him . So he had a hunger for the Lord from a young age , comes to the US at 24 and goes to a black church in New York and was just mesmerized and this was interesting . He said no one in New York was preaching the gospel . This was one of the first few churches he found that was actually preaching the gospel . There was a lot of liberalism going on back there , and so that stirs him up .
Speaker 2He tries to get records of what do they call them spirituals , black spirituals or whatever they called them and takes them back to Germany and , just you know , starts getting . And then he starts feeling a burden for what was going on with Hitler . He was unwilling to become a part of the Reich church . I mean , the Lutheran church there had really become Hitler's church in a sense . He was trying to remake it , reshift it , and leaders in the church , even though they weren't sympathetic to Hitler , they were like , oh , you're being a little too overzealous about this . But he saw it , he was a step ahead . He saw where this was going and his heart was the church needs to stand up . And so he ends up , you know , being in a place where they wanted to draft him . He thought there's no way I could be a part of Hitler's you know agenda . So he comes to the US thinking , okay , I'll go there , I'll teach .
Speaker 2He was only here , I think , 26 days and gets burdened by God to go back and be a part of it . So he goes back and then becomes a part of the government that , a part of the government that was opposed to the Gestapo , which they were kind of like , at odds with each other . They were pro-Hitler , and these guys realized we need to take this guy out so he comes under them under the guise of making connections with other Christian leaders in other countries . But the whole point was to get the word out . There's a resistance going on in Germany . Sadly Churchill wouldn't give him an audience , he wouldn't hear him out , but that's what happened and then ends up , you know , becoming a part of that , gets found out being a part of the plotting of hitler's assassination . Obviously that was foiled , but then gets locked up and then , as you shared , he ends up dying in the car .
Speaker 4Was that the famous one where the bomb was put under the table with this plot of ?
Speaker 2plot I believe that .
Speaker 3I believe that was , wasn't it ? I thought it was a different one he's talking about there was dozens of plots .
Speaker 4Valkyrie oh yeah , I think that was a different one .
Speaker 2Yeah , so anyway . So that's kind of a story . But you think of that dilemma , right ? Some say he was a pacifist . I heard Metaxas say he really wasn't actually , but that he just , you know , kind of was opposed to Hitler's agenda . It's not that he was against , I mean , obviously he was going to kill Hitler .
Speaker 3Well , that's the thing , that's a moment of conflict , is that a lot of , I think , biographers and historians would say ? If you read his writings , he he appears to be a pacifist and he was in a moment of conflict and ultimately sided with , because Augustine is like , if you read Augustine , he was mostly a pacifist as well , and he's the one that came up with the theology of just war . And so some would argue that Bonhoeffer fits in that same category , that he was a pacifist up until necessity , which is what pacifism , from an Augustinian perspective , would be .
Speaker 2Yeah , is that what Bonhoeffer said ?
Speaker 1Bonhoeffer , he's a great example of what it means to boldly stand for Christ in the midst of tyranny . A couple of scriptures come to mind . In Luke 9 , he said to all If anyone would come after me , let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me . And then Matthew 10 , 28 . Do not fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul . Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell . Dietrich Bonhoeffer , he said when Christ calls a man , he bids him to come and die . That is the calling . This is unlike any other worldview that is out there , right , Because every other worldview , if you think about it , it's what they can offer you and how you can have something better , Even within Islam , right , you can have X amount of virgins that are waiting for you at your death .
Speaker 1It's just the men , not women . It's just the men . Yeah , yes , I lost my train of thought right now .
Speaker 4Thank , you , ray Comfort . It's really nice Lady .
Speaker 2you die for the cause of Islam and there's 70 men waiting for you . Distraction brought to you by Rain Comfort Squirrel . Yeah , oh man . I love that quote , mark , that's a good one . I want to connect with that quote , like in the very depths of my heart . One of the things that was said about Bonhoeffer is how he died with such peace . Like you know , he was so mesmerized by the reality of eternity . He was so mesmerized by the reality of eternity , by the fact that our lives are . Christ is worthy of us laying our lives down for Him . And so I think sometimes it's been said by someone that Bonhoeffer would rebuke us for lamenting his death .
Speaker 2He would say no , no it was a joy to lay my life down for the sake of Christ .
Speaker 4Yes , I love that , but I want to . He was living in prison . He didn't have a big screen TV and a good dog .
Speaker 2Hey , it's major boat . I wonder how you do in that scenario , Ray .
Speaker 4Oh , no good , Please help .
Speaker 2But I want to connect with that in my heart and my life . That Christ bids us to come , die Right For me to live as Christ , to die is gain . That the crucified life is part and parcel with the disciples' life .
Speaker 3Even against his own people . I think that's one of the things that stood out to me most . Before we hit record , mark and I were talking , two-thirds of the German Christians supported Hitler , and that might be a shocker to some people , but you have to remember , in 1933 , hitler wasn't the Adolf Hitler we now know that he was . In 1933 , he was a bumbling politician that was preaching nationalism , promising to restore Germany to their former glory by removing the minorities out of their country , and there was a lot of the church . I mean , germany was separated from the theologians of resistance to the Christian pastors and preachers that were supporting this idea , and so , at the very beginning , most Christians welcome Hitler .
Speaker 3Hitler didn't intimidate the church . He seduced the church through promises , and Dietrich Bonhoeffer was in a minority . He was ostracized from his own people because he didn't fall into tribalism . Alongside of them , he spoke against the guy that was promising these German Christians everything they wanted . You know , he like he was kind of one , even though these aren't his words directly . He was kind of the one that preached you can be a nationalist and you can be a Christian , but you can't be both . And so it's again like that's what I love about him . What I love about him is he was like man . Actually one of the . Ferdinand Schleichenbeinsberger said this . He said there were never too many that agreed with him . Think about that Like to Dietrich Bonhoeffer to pick up your cross and to follow him was to follow him even outside of your own tribe .
Speaker 4It's also important to remember that Hitler was a believer in God and often quoted scripture , and you can read all about the details in a book called Hitler , god and the Bible , written by Ray Comfort . Ray Comfort , it's very interesting . Yeah , you know , and actually 180 was supposed to be about Hitler's religion . Remember that .
Speaker 2Yeah , I do it had so much interest .
Speaker 2Yeah , oscar man , to be a voice that is true to God , to recognize we stand before an audience of one . You know you think of what Jesus said woe to you if all men speak well of you . You know you think of Athanasius , who was a defender of the triune God . You know I mean . When they told him , athanasius , the world is against you . He said no , it's Athanasius , the world is against you . He said no , it's Athanasius against the world . I love that heart and that mindset of look , truth is truth . I'm not licking my finger and putting it up to see where the wind is blowing . I'm not looking to see what popular guys are agreeing or disagreeing . I have a heart that says Lord , all that matters is what you say and I'm willing to die on that hill . You know we share that quote . Oftentimes it's not a hill to die on .
Speaker 4Calvary is the hill to die on .
Speaker 2Amen . It's got to be based on the gospel , it's got to be based on the crucial things that we can't help but die for and , at the end of the day , that's really a true Christian . It's one that's saying look , consequences are irrelevant , they're irrelevant .
Speaker 4So that means this commitment of mine to the Lord is non-negotiable . I never thought I'd ever hear you say that Consequences are irrelevant , Because anytime I do something you say consequences , he's going to quote you now .
Speaker 2You've traumatized me .
Speaker 3Ray , with your lack of care for consequences .
Speaker 2But this is the one area where we say come what may , Torture me , torment me , kill me .
Speaker 4Tickle me , Of course I don't want to .
Speaker 2Oh no , of course . We're not gluttons for punishment . We're not looking and saying come on and do this .
Speaker 3It's a badge of honor .
Speaker 2No , but if it happens , it happens . I'm going to be true to the Lord , Mark . We need more of that today .
Speaker 1We do John Knox . He said a man with God will always be in the majority and if you realize that God is for you , it doesn't matter who is against you . And this is why Dietrich Bonhoeffer was really the first person and I'm sure there's other stories out there , I just throw it out there because it's what I'm familiar with the first one to really come up with the essential church , right , we see that grace to you created the essential church after COVID , where we have the church standing up to a tyrannical government . Well , this is what Diedrich Bonhoeffer did . He stood up to a tyrannical government because he had great quote silence in the face of evil is itself evil . God will not hold us guiltless . Not to speak is to speak and not to act is to act Right . So love cannot keep silent .
Speaker 4That'd be a good song , love can't stay silent , and audacity , and audacity , audacity that was really a good song .
Speaker 2It was yeah , anyway .
Speaker 1No , whenever you guys come up with your squirrels , it totally loses my train of thought . But it is so good you were talking about hot dogs , winters and souls Hot dogs .
Speaker 4Anyway , it was really good , mark , thank you . Thank you , mark , appreciate it .
Speaker 2Mark .
This is a good quote by Bonhoeffer . He said Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves . Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance , baptism without church discipline , communion without confession . Cheap grace is grace without discipleship , grace without the cross , grace without Jesus Christ living and incarnate .
Speaker 4Cheap grace is not amazing grace Ooh nice .
Speaker 2That's a quote by Ray Comptonick I just came to mind right now um , isn't that powerful though , you guys . I mean , I think it's a glimpse into the man's soul . You know he was black and white . Like it's not .
Speaker 4There's no compromise , there's no gray area here he was white in a black church in new york .
Speaker 2Oh , that's right that's right , uh , but yeah , I , I love that , uh , but , but yeah , so let's . But yeah , I knew you guys were going to point out , but yeah .
Speaker 4I didn't , but you thought it . No , yeah , I thought it , but I didn't I thought it .
Speaker 3Dude next mug .
Speaker 2But yeah , but yeah I haven't thought about it , yet but yeah , but yeah , okay . So let's get down to the nitty gritty . Let's talk about our thoughts on how do we handle that If that happens today and we find ourselves in positions because , look , bonhoeffer was obviously in scenarios , he was a spy , so obviously he was , at the very least , misleading right , giving a false impression of who he was and what he was doing .
Speaker 4You mean living a lie .
Speaker 2Well , if you want to call it that . I would beg to differ on that , but that's how it would appear .
Speaker 4I wouldn't call it that .
Speaker 2Merci beaucoup . So why do I insert French ? What purpose does that serve ?
Speaker 4You don't want to amuse yourself , it should have been German to stay in line . And we apologize to German listeners .
Speaker 2So , ray , you were eager to talk about this . You've researched this ?
Speaker 4Yeah , I've never haven't come to a conclusion .
Speaker 2You still don't have a conclusion .
Speaker 4What's that ? No , I haven't come to a conclusion all these years . What do I say if Nazis come to the door and say your wife's Jewish , is she in this house ? Oh yeah , she's hiding up under the bed upstairs . Do I tell them the truth ? Do I go dumb ? Do I act insane ? Which what you guys could do easily . I mean just start dribbling like David did in the Old Testament ? How do you answer it ?
Speaker 3Do you ?
Speaker 4say no , do I say yes ? You know you get to heaven . And Gabriel said well , it's just common sense , you don't want to be complicit with the Nazis to murder your wife . So what'd you tell him the truth for ? You know , do you look to the ? The uh , the woman , that , that , uh , what are ? They gave birth to the moses , what they called uh midwives midwives yeah , the came back to moses .
Speaker 3What ?
Speaker 2are they called ?
Speaker 4midwives . They , they lied , they weren't truthful , and is that a precedent for us ? So yeah , what do you say when the nazis come to your door ?
Speaker 2okay , good questions . Mark is champing . It's actually champing at the bit , not chomping , but we say chomping , so we'll say Marcus chomping at the bit . Well , no .
Speaker 1Listen , I think that if we had a lofty view of God's sovereignty , that we don't have to play by their rules , that's the thing right , because they're coming to you with a yes or no , it's the same thing with do you still beat your wife ? No , right Stopped .
Speaker 4Why'd you stop ? I stopped , I just got sick of it oh no .
Speaker 2This is going to be taken out of context .
Speaker 1I was like a joke , have you or have you not ? Though it's a yes or no , question it . They don't get to call the shots even though they're holding the gun . So you mean you change the subject ? Well , you can , in one degree , right . Having a lofty view of God means that God is in control , and I would lean more towards not lying , but not playing by their rules . What does that look like ?
Speaker 1Right , we have the story , right , of having our friends that started , really , an orphanage there in northern Uganda , and we had a friend of ours from our ministry that went out . There was part of it and there was a guy who came in with a gun . You remember the story , right ? He came in with a gun and he was going to kill people and he did kill some people and our friend Mike went up and he did kill some people and our friend Mike went up and he said don't you fear God ? Do you not fear God ? With boldness , he came into the scenario and the situation and he was not killed in the midst of it . So how would I respond ? How can you respond ? So how did the guy answer ? Well , I don't think he spoke English .
Speaker 1All right so what if you just responded with a preaching and a rebuking of the individual ? What if you just started preaching the law and the gospel to the individual ? What if you called down fire upon the individual ? I'm not saying to do that , but I'm just simply saying a yes or no question does not necessarily require a yes or no answer . You can rebuke them in the name of Jesus . Stand on the laurels that God is for you , that the angel of the Lord sings songs of deliverance around his people , that God is your portion and your inheritance and he's your defender . What if you just simply rebuked that person in the name of Jesus and just preached the law and the gospel and trusted the results to the Lord , not saying yes not saying no .
Speaker 4Great scenario Nazis come to your door . Do you think you're a good person ?
Speaker 2I would just start singing to them . What song would that be ?
Speaker 1I am Pippi Longstocking .
Speaker 2Okay , so I think she was German too . They'd like that . Mark , I love what you're saying and , more than that , I love the heart behind it . Because the heart behind it is I want to honor the Lord in all things . Christ is supreme . My allegiance is to him .
Speaker 4Let me give you my I can hear my wife calling out from under the bed upstairs don't do that , honey .
Speaker 2Lie , please lie .
Speaker 4I'm not here , Lie please
Speaker 1honey .
Speaker 2Okay , because I've wrestled with this throughout my Christian walk and I waver , because I do lean one way . But then I hear you say this and you've talked about this before , and I'm influenced and I want to be persuaded toward truth . Here's my statement on this . I would say under no circumstance would I lie , under no circumstance would I be deceitful . This is my question Me giving misleading information to Nazis that are about to murder people , would god count that ? Would he accredit that to me as a lie ? Would he accredit that to me as as wicked deception ? That's the question that I face .
Speaker 2And in the same way , I say like , obviously you shall not kill , but we understand that life is taken , but we know that that is the unjust taking of life , it's murder .
Speaker 2So if I'm a government official and someone committed murder and I implement capital punishment , I judge them to do that , or I even flip the switch on the electric chair or whatever they do these days , would that be accredited to me as murder , in keeping with that commandment killing , taking a life , whatever and I lean toward no . In other words , I believe that lying is an intentional deception for selfish reasons . I don't believe that if a Nazi comes and says , yeah , we're here to kill your wife , is she in the house ? And I say , no , that God is going to accredit that to me as lying , in accordance with the commandment to not lie . That that's the meaning of it . That's where I kind of lean , because , mark , sometimes you have scenarios so sometimes it's not like as easy as just you know telling them oh , or asking them another question , because it could be like , okay , that means we know she's here .
Speaker 1That's so good . Yeah , so again . And that may be where , because I don't think she can die unless God says it's time for her to die . Right ? All of her days were written before there was one of them , right ?
Speaker 2But I still wrestle with how God works naturally within the supernatural , and so I just look at that and I say you know , there are practical things that have to happen . It could be now . A gun is to your child's head .
Speaker 3Why am I the child ?
Speaker 4Is that loaded .
Speaker 2A gun's to your child's head . Is your wife here or not ? And if you don't give us an answer in three seconds , we're pulling the trigger .
Speaker 1You can't pull that trigger . I don't think you can , I don't think you have the ability to pull that trigger without God giving you that permission .
Speaker 2Yeah , so that I mean , that's what ? Sorry , oscar , I need to keep breathing .
Speaker 3No , sorry , sorry , I don't mean to be no , no , no , it's good .
Speaker 2But one more thing too . And then sometimes you have , like you have covert issues , like where someone needs to be a spy and they have to act like someone they're not . They have to use a different name . All that could be seen as lying or deception . And that's where I would step back and say , even as I look at the lives of the children of Israel and I'm not saying we base doctrine on narrative , of course , but do we see something implied in there ? And my take as it stands now is I don't think that the Lord accredits that to your account , and I think he works practically in some ways of I'm not gonna die until God wants me to and I jump off a bridge . Is that testing God ? So those are the things I wrestle with . Oscar breathe and speak .
Speaker 3Yeah , it's been a while since I've explored this , but I did years ago . I was really thought through this , and one of the things that we have to wrestle with too , from your perspective , mark , is Rahab lies in the very act of her . Lying is accredited to her as righteousness . In other words , god , the scriptures , doesn't say in spite of Rahab's lie , god accredited to her as righteousness . Her act of lying was a sign of her faith in God and therefore it's accredited to her as righteous . And just one other example would be Joshua sending spies into the promised land . In other words , the Old Testament , god uses spies , whose job is deception , to work out his good , to bring people to the promised land .
Speaker 3Now that points us back to the phrase bearing false witness , and we have to ask ourselves what does that even mean ? What does it mean to bear false witness ? Our quick translation into English is don't lie , but is that too broad of a category ? What do we mean by not lying ? Do we categorize Rahab's statement as a lie ? Do we categorize it as bearing a false witness ?
Speaker 3And if you look at old Jewish texts again , it's been a really long time I didn't
know . This is the direction of the conversation we're going in Proof , our podcast is unscripted , but if you look at the original , if you look , remembering correctly , it is the statement against the truth of the image of God . So , in other words , for me to go around telling somebody that you're something you're not , is me making a statement that mars , who you are created by , in God , or another way of looking at it . And this is we're coming down to situational ethics here . Another way of looking at it , and we're coming down to situational ethics here .
Speaker 3Another way of looking at it is that a lie is a sin because it doesn't glorify the Lord . But if me protecting a Jewish person hiding in my basement , if Rahab protecting the spies , if the spies acting in a deceptive manner is done to bring about the glory of God , you know it's situational ethics Is it better for me to tell the truth , to avoid the truth , or to protect an image bearer in God ? In that situation , in my mind , it's a no brainer . In my mind , I'd have the full confidence , like Rahab did , to say I got nothing for you , man , I'm sorry .
Speaker 1There's nobody there . Let it be known , though , that she was not commended for her lie . She was commended for her faith .
Speaker 3Right , which is acted out in her righteousness I'm sorry acted out in her act of lying . The lie is connected .
Speaker 1The lie is I think there's a connection . I agree with you that there's a connection .
Speaker 3Yeah , it's working out . Your faith in works , her faith worked out in the work of deception . That's the thing that you have to wrestle with .
Speaker 1Right and I agree with that . I'm just saying that there's never a commendation based upon the lie that it was something else which leads me to believe that there perhaps is more to the story in the midst of that . I think that we shine a light upon the lie instead of shining a light upon the faith itself , whatever that means . And remember that the Bible does not tell us everything we want to know , but everything we need to know , and Jesus is the central figure of the story .
Speaker 2Absolutely . And no good points , guys . And Oscar , here's again what I would say , and it's natural for us to use that language when you say , you know , rahab lied , but I would say that I wouldn't , I don't know , that I would call that a lie because , again , like you're saying , what is the definition of a lie ? It's like , you know , if we see , you know , the children of Israel wiping out the Canaanites and we say they murdered them , no , they didn't , that was just judgment from God , so we wouldn't define it as that , and so that's kind of , again , where I'm at . I think that . But let me just say this is a very slippery slope .
Speaker 2I recognize that and we have to be careful , because I think this is only acceptable in very rare , rare circumstances , Because we could say well , hey , I did this to save that person from getting in trouble , or I did this so this went , or the pastor was in adultery , but I didn't want to hurt the congregation Exactly .
Speaker 2That's good , ray , and that's why , Mark , I really sympathize with your view and why I get persuaded by it , Because it's like I'm terrified of the slippery slope . You know
me like . Consistency is a big thing for me . You need to be consistent , so it's tough . Ray , what do you think of all this ?
Speaker 4I admire someone who can trust God . When the door opens , nazis are there and I totally trust the Lord . But what's that ? I didn't have faith that Marx got and there wasn't a miracle . The Nazis didn't get blinded . And they just go upstairs grab my wife . She walks past , say sorry , honey , you're going to get raped until you starve to death in a concentration camp , but I didn't want to transgress my conscience , sorry honey .
Speaker 2So that's the dilemma I have . Yeah , because , see , my thought is again , I would never say well for this case . Sorry God , I'm going to have to sin against you to do this . That's contrary to everything we believe and say , but that's what I'm saying . I don't think that's what we're doing in that instance . So it's like , lord , I'm going to have to rob this bank .
Speaker 1I know you say don't steal , but I got to do it , but the orphans need the money Exactly right , good point , but I think , yeah , let's go bank robbing .
Speaker 4He's going to be like his aunt .
Speaker 2Yeah , my aunt robbed banks . Only four , only four , that's right . So you know what I'm saying . Like it's just not , it's not a question , no matter what happens . And that goes back to what I talked about earlier . The non-negotiables right Consequences are what they are . But that that's where I'm saying . I don't believe that it's necessarily a sin and God would credit that to us as lying .
Speaker 1So no confession is necessary . That's what I would , yeah .
Speaker 2I think so . In that case , I would say , no , that was a righteous thing . That's not what God meant when he talked about lying , when you're acting in the instance of a spy or , you know , trying to save people .
Speaker 4I think we're talking about the spirit of the law and I take consolation in the fact that Jesus said to the religious hypocrites and legalists have you not read where David grabbed the bread and ate it ? Ooh yeah .
Speaker 1That's actually good insight .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1Finally .
Speaker 2Yeah , so I think this is again such a healthy discussion . We need to think through this as believers , and I'm open , like I'm totally open , to be corrected and you know what are you looking at ?
Speaker 4A couple of soldiers at the door . What Nazis Can you imagine ? What are you looking at ? A couple of soldiers at the door .
Speaker 2What Nazis Can you imagine like ? In real time we're faced with this .
Speaker 1What a coincidence In Acts 5 , peter and the apostles answered we must obey God rather than men . There comes a time where we have to stand up for what we believe to be true , amen . We have to stand upon what we've learned . Maybe we're all familiar with it , but the White Rose Resistance Group , seth Gruber , had started a ministry , if you would . That kind of goes in that realm of standing up for the pre-born , having a voice for them .
Speaker 1But Sophie Skoll , she's the one who the ministry is based on . She said stand up for what you believe in , even if you're standing alone . That we must come to our own conclusion and stand with it . Just because I might have a different conviction than you have , I would now be in sin if I were to do anything else , because whatever's not a faith is sin . And now there's a greater issue in the midst of it . So just because you can or I can't stand on the laurels of somebody else's conviction doesn't mean that one is right or necessarily wrong . Now you guys have all jumped through hoops to come to your conclusions and I think , that's really interesting , you guys really are .
Speaker 2You have the right to be wrong , mark . I love this quote by Bonhoeffer . He said Silence in the face of evil is itself evil . God will not hold us guiltless . Not to speak is to speak , not to act is to act . I mean , again , this is what fueled this guy . It was like no , no , it's not . Oh Lord , I'll pray and just hope you deal with this . I see a massive problem . I have a conviction that this needs to be fixed . I can be a part of it and come what may , do you think he likes cereal ? Bon Hoffa , bon Hoffa .
Speaker 3Do you ?
Speaker 1think he likes cereal Ray .
Speaker 2Everyone likes cereal . Are you cereal ?
Speaker 1Yeah , oscar , we really don't want to hear what you have to say . I want to hear it .
Speaker 3Oscar , do you have any final thoughts ? Not on that , but I do think . Actually I've got a quote it's a little long by Dietrich Bonhoeffer , but , on the note , one of the things that often he doesn't get enough credit for is how he stood up for the oppressed and how he recognized the image-bearing quality in all of us and how he pushed against the us versus them mentality that was happening in Germany and how he pushed against the us versus them mentality that was happening in Germany . And so I have somewhat of a long quote , but it's beautiful .
Speaker 4He says this .
Speaker 3It's about 45 minutes long . The way I read it , there remains an experience of incomparable value . We have for once learned to see the great events of the world history from below , from the perspective of the outcasts , the suspects , the maltreated , the powerless , the oppressed , the reviled , in short , from the perspective of those who suffer . The important thing is neither that bitterness nor envy should have gnawed at the heart during this time , that we should have come to look with new eyes at matters , great and small , sorrow and joy , strength and weakness . That our perception of generosity , humanity , justice and mercy should have become clearer , freer or less corruptible . We have to learn that personal suffering is a more effective key , a more rewarding principle for exploring the world and thought and action than personal good fortune .
Speaker 3We have been silent witnesses of evil deeds . We have been drenched by many storms . We have learned the arts of equivocation and pretense . Experience has made us suspicious of others and kept us from being truthful and open others and kept us from being truthful and open . Intolerable conflicts have worn us down and even made us cynical . Are we still of any use ?
Speaker 3What we need is not geniuses or cynics or misanthropes or clever tacticians , but plain , honest , straightforward men , will our inward power of resistance be strong enough , and our honesty with ourselves remorseless enough for us to find our way back to simplicity and straightforwardness ? Whoever despises another human being will never be able to make anything of him . Nothing of what we despise in another is itself foreign to us . We must learn to regard people less in light of what we despise in another is itself foreign to us . We must learn to regard people less in light of what they do or admit to do , and more in light of what they suffer . The only fruitful relation to human beings , particularly to the weak among them , is love , and that God did not hold human beings into contempt but became human for their sake , that's so good man and I love what he said Straight , honest , straightforward men .
Speaker 2May the Lord make us that To be like Nathaniel , a man in whom there is no guile . Be like Nathaniel , a man in whom there is no guile . You know , no sense of double standards , no sense of compromise , but just real and authentic . You know , and again , living to honor the Lord . So what a great life , and so grateful that there was actually a mix here . Lane had suggested that we cover Bonhoeffer . You wanted to deal with the Nazi stuff , and so we combined it together , and what a great episode it is . Thank you , lane . What a blessing . Thank you .
Speaker 2Ray , we appreciate it , ray .
Speaker 4Come on , there's a one-liner after this .
Speaker 2I know I'm going to withhold it out of love . All right , friends . There you have it . There you have it . Don't forget the Living Waters TV . You got to sign up for it . Living Waters Among the Heaven and Society Bible . Alllivingwaterscom Podcast . At livingwaterscom , with your thoughts and your insights . Oscar's pouring water . Thank you for joining us , friends . We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters Podcast .
Speaker 4Ray .
Speaker 2Oh , sorry , ray is so good , I was left alone doing it , okay , but do a good one this time On the Living Waters Podcast . No , no , a good one On the Living Waters Podcast . There you go .