You think of Scripture saying that you know , though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death , I fear no evil , for you are with me . The promise isn't that you won't walk through the valley of the shadow of death Like we will all walk through that valley . The promise of Scripture is that God is with us and because we have this great shepherd , our loving Heavenly Father , that walks with us through these trials , we can find comfort in those moments of depression or anxiety , worry , trials . I think it was Charles Spurgeon who said it's the doctrine of God's sovereignty that he's in control of all things . That is the pillow that the Christian lays their head on at night .
Speaker 1I could not flourish , I'll just say flourish , but I probably couldn't survive as a Christian if I didn't believe that God was in control of all things , if God was in heaven wishing certain things could take place in my life , but he's like , sorry , nathan , like you're on your own , walk through that valley , walk through that trial . So , as a believer that believes that the scriptures teach there is a sovereign God who loves his people and cares for them , and that all things Romans 8 , 28 , are working together for good for those who love God and are called according to his purpose . Like I , cling to that promise . The good times , the bad times , when I have money in the bank , when I don't have money in the bank , when I have health , when I don't have health , all of those things in God's's mysterious plan are working together for my good , and so the believer that's out there that's discouraged . I would point them to , those promises of Scripture , to know that you can actually walk through this season because God is walking with you .
Speaker 3World-renowned theologian best-selling author , legendary evangelist chicken enthusiast . And now , ladies and gentlemen , as if this list of celebrated titles was not enough , he is the one , the only . Ray Comfort , the professional barber . Wait what you don't know about this , tell us Ray about your . No , no , no , look , barber escapades .
Speaker 4It's out of character , it just happened . I mentioned it easy . I shouldn't have mentioned it to him . Sue , my wife , for the last 50 years has trimmed my hair , which saved us millions of dollars with the cost of hair cutting . She learned it from my sister , who's a professional hairdresser , and just watched her and watched her , and she's been doing it . So my hair grows thick on the sides . It's just weird , really thick , really thick . So Sue uses what's called thinning scissors Thinning They've got little teeth on them and the other day I thought this is getting thick on that side . So I got the thinning scissors out the drawer and went twice and thought where's those teeth that are supposed to be on the thinning scissors ? Is that what that hole ?
Speaker 2is yes , there's a hole in the side of my hair , holy head .
Speaker 4It's actually fixed . This is about a week and a half ago , but it was just really bad .
Speaker 3And you still went in public , right , of course . Well , it's my life , it's just dumb things all the time . But you didn't just want to be a barber in terms of hair , but you know , barbers work on beards . What happened to your beard , ray ?
Speaker 2Yeah , You're going to make me seem like an idiot .
Speaker 4Yeah , the other day I got some new beard trimmers and they're really high-tech , really good , and you put little plastic teeth on the thing so you've just got the length that you want to trim your beard . You know what I'm talking about .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 4Mark , is that a beard or not ?
Speaker 3Is that a beard or not ?
Speaker 4No , anyway , I put these real nice little , because I want a little thin beard . I didn't want it soon .
Speaker 3Yeah
.
Speaker 4So I went this is really quick and I thought it seems to be a lot of hair . I've never seen that much hair . And I went back to Sue . She said where's ?
Speaker 2your beard .
Speaker 4It just about disappeared . Really , I'd used it .
Speaker 3It was too thin Story of your life . And then your back hair .
Speaker 4No , I just plant that , I braid it .
Speaker 3Yeah , so I've learned a lesson . Yeah well , thank you , ray , for enlightening us to your wonderful , extravagant adventures . Yes , friends , it is not Oscar . For those of you watching , it is our friend , nathan Bingham , in the house today . So good to be here . Yeah , great to have you , nathan . Nathan is from Ligonier Ministries , a VP there and does a bunch of other stuff . Tell us about your podcast and all this .
Speaker 1So I've been hosting Renewing your Mind for about 18 months , which is Ligonier's flagship radio and podcast program , this year celebrating 30 years of broadcasting truth . So occasionally they let me out of the studio and they've let me come from Florida to California .
Speaker 4I'm mystified Is there something in that accent ? So occasionally they let me out of the studio and they've let me come from Florida to California . So it's great to be here . I'm mystified .
Speaker 1Is there something in that accent ?
Speaker 4There is yes , tell me . I find a mixture of South African , australian .
Speaker 1Yeah , so I grew up in Australia .
Speaker 4You did .
Speaker 1Yeah , so I moved here 13 years ago . Yeah .
Speaker 4Okay , the Aussie and the Kiwi .
Speaker 3I just went down to Sydney for that's right , so Melbourne , Australia , not Sydney .
Speaker 1Okay , so you know Keith .
Speaker 4Keith lives in Melbourne .
Speaker 1Yeah , just me and Keith . He's a nice guy .
Speaker 3So Nathan isn't new to the podcast we had you on when we were at NRB . Yeah , had a great time with you there . You got to come to Florida , enjoy the humidity .
Speaker 1Yeah , it was great .
Speaker 3Man well , I'm going out there and you're not going to be there when I'm there .
Speaker 4You found out you were coming .
Speaker 1Yeah , you shouldn't share your calendar . I know you do that . I organized a trip to Texas , I know man , so you know Ken .
Speaker 4Ham .
Speaker 1I know of Ken Ham , but I've never met Ken .
Speaker 4Well , he still talks funny . You don't talk funny .
Speaker 1Yeah , I don't know . I guess I don't know whether it's sanctification or I'm just being it would definitely be sanctification with sanctification .
Speaker 3But , man , we're so blessed to have you and when we were at NRB and you were on with us , you shared a story about Ray and kind of what God has done in your life through him . So I know some of our friends heard it before , but there'll be new people who are listening today , so we'd love to hear that story again . And , yeah , fill us in .
Speaker 1Yeah , so I'm really grateful for your ministry , ray . I did not grow up as a Christian , and about 18 years old was when the Lord graciously saved me and found myself in just a generic evangelical Pentecostal church and had a lot of questions . But someone said to me you need to go online , look at Living Waters and listen to some of Ray Comfort's messages . Go online , look at Living Waters and listen to some of Ray Comfort's messages . And so I can still vividly remember the Friday evening .
Speaker 1My wife well , she wasn't my wife at the time , she was my fiancee . She was out of town and I got on the computer , typed in Living Waters , listened to Hell's Best Kept Secret , listened to True and False Conversion True and False Converts and for the first time really was taken through the law of God and understood that I was a sinner , even though I prayed a sinner's prayer , had some understanding of the gospel . That was the first time that the gospel was truly clearly presented to me and the first time I understood who I was and was able to honestly and transparently cry out to God for mercy , recognizing what a sinner I was . It was a visceral experience . I remember almost wanting to vomit dry heave for the first time seeing that I was not a good person .
Speaker 4The Puritans called that sighing and heaving .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , that was my experience . And my wife did grow up in the church and we were engaged at the time . I believe we were engaged . Maybe we were dating I'll have to look back at the timeline but we were either dating or newly engaged .
Speaker 1And after listening to your messages I began to wonder was my wife even a Christian ? And so , anyway , when she came back in town , it's like you've got to listen to these messages and , honey , I don't know whether you're really a Christian and the Lord was gracious to her and revealed her sinfulness . She grew up in the church and had this understanding that she was a good person and that she wasn't like some of the other youth that were a bit more rebellious . She was like no , I was a good girl . And your ministry and the Word of God and the Lord's blessing by His Spirit revealed her sinfulness too . And that just began this journey . And then discovering RC Sproul with Ligonier Ministries I see the Venn diagram of both your ministries has this great overlap , as he sought to help people see the holiness of God . When you see God as holy , you see yourself as sinful , and so the beginning of my Christian experience was your ministry and seeing my own sinfulness . And then that continues today , even serving at Ligonier Ministries helping people .
Speaker 4It's so encouraging . Do you know what RC stands for in RC Sproul ? It's actually Ray Comfort Sproul .
Speaker 2What year would that have been around where you discovered ?
Speaker 4that 2004 .
Speaker 2Wow yeah .
Speaker 4Waverly Christian Fellowship . Do you remember that ? In Melbourne , I do not no , it was a large church , it doesn't matter . No .
Speaker 3Moving on .
Speaker 2Well , Nathan , that's just such an encouragement to hear .
Speaker 3I didn't know about your wife . I can't remember if you told us that story last time .
Speaker 1Thank you for sharing . No , I probably didn't , because I usually don't say that .
Speaker 3But she's in the room , so I don't know why .
Speaker 1I'll probably get her talking to you on the car drive home .
Speaker 3But it's just such an encouragement to think about what the Lord does . And then the fact that you were impacted by Ligonier and now you're hosting the program . I mean that's insane . In fact , I think you showed me a picture where you went to visit and you took a picture with Dr Sproul in the studio .
Speaker 1And now you're the guy hosting the . So my first photo with RC Sproul was in the Renewing your Mind studio and had no idea . I started working with Ligonier almost 13 years ago . Had no idea that part of that journey would be becoming the host of Renewing your Mind .
Speaker 4So the Lord has been very gracious . About 20 years ago , I did a one-hour interview with RC Sproul . Him and I were guests and I was able to bluff it for a whole hour . No , he knew it . He knew it .
Speaker 3He knew you didn't fool him , Ray I met Sproul .
Speaker 2One time I was with Ray and Kirk Cameron at an event I don't remember what it was , but I remember Sproul . This was right when Kirk had come out with Left Behind I think it was part two or something . What a humorous individual . That's just kind of hidden to some degree . But he said to Kirk hey , don't you go get raptured before we're done talking . Now you hear I went . That is so funny . Just knowing his eschatology was just so great .
Speaker 1He really , really was a funny man and even on his tombstone it says a kind man who was redeemed by a kinder savior . I probably messed that up , but he really was a kind man and had such a sense of humor . I can still hear his laugh and every time he would see me on campus he would just say you call that a knife . I'm trying to do this , crocodile dundee . That's funny , that's good .
Speaker 3Yeah , you know we were talking about this recently I can't remember when , but someone was saying that every time Arcee would finish preaching he'd ask his wife was I kind ? And he wasn't concerned about . Was it powerful , was it , but was I kind he wasn't concerned about . Was it powerful , but was I kind ? I love hearing that about men like him , who are stalwarts on theology and honoring the Lord and God's holiness which is one of the biggest ways he impacted me originally but has that sense of humor and that tender heart that wants to be kind for God's glory .
Speaker 4Amen .
Speaker 3I remember watching his holiness series when I was a student at a Christian university in one of my classes and it just floored me and I've watched that series with my family at home and what an impact . So we're excited , brother .
Speaker 1Next year , the book celebrates its 40th anniversary . Wow so it's just incredible to think , four decades later , still having an impact on people . And then you know the reach of online media people that are discovering RC Sproul just on YouTube . I heard this young girl that just said RC Sproul popped up on my YouTube because of this algorithm . But , then they just go down this rabbit hole of RC Sproul material . They watch the holiness of God , I guess because of when it was filmed .
Speaker 2It seems authentic now because it's not polished and you can tell it wasn't recorded in the last five years . You know , paul Washer nailed it very well in describing RC Sproul's ability and saying that Sproul had the ability , through an article or a small booklet , to explain very deep theological things . That would take most people 200 pages inside of a book to write that there's no fillers , there's no rabbit trails . It's just straight to the point in a way that you can understand and remember . I absolutely love it . I agree . Simple but not simplistic .
Speaker 3It's like , simply put , you guys remember when Ben Stein did that interview with him .
Speaker 2Oh , yeah , he was just like what .
Speaker 3He's so shocked by his brilliance . It's really great . All right , well , we're really excited , nathan , to jump in with you on this topic of what does it mean to know God . But before that , just a couple of things . We have a cool , classy comment .
Speaker 3This is from Faith Ruck . This is the best podcast ever . It is gospel-centered , informative and hilarious . The host's love for Jesus Christ is evident in every podcast , and their mission to give people the tools they need to do the work of evangelism are amazing . This podcast has given me a greater desire to share the gospel with others and it , along with their YouTube channel , has helped me learn how to do it . This year I became a volunteer with Child Evangelism Fellowship . I now help at their outreaches and in their Good News Club ministry . I have used what I learned on this podcast to help me spread the good news of Jesus Christ .
Speaker 3Thank you , ray , easy , mark and Oscar for this podcast . God bless you all . Thank you , faithy Ruck . I mean guys , this is why we do what we do . It's so people are actually going out and preaching the gospel so very exciting . Keep , people are actually going out and preaching the gospel so very exciting . Keep it up , sister , and blessings to you . All right , and now a radically revolutionary resource once again . Yes , friends , living Waters TV . It is out , it is available , our new streaming platform , so get on there and check out all the stuff we have . As we mentioned last time , you can see the National Bible Bee competition on there and exclusive original documentaries and every episode of the Wave , the Master television program . Yes , it's still going and we're still doing it . All right .
Speaker 4You like that ? We're still doing it . Yeah , we're still doing it . It's 10th season , isn't it ?
Speaker 3Just do it . Yeah , I think we're about to do our 11th , believe it or not , all right . What does it mean to know God ? And you know , I can't think of anything more fitting to talk about , nathan , especially considering what we started off with right you coming to realize do I even know God ? Does my fiance or girlfriend even know God ? And this is the most pertinent question that any human being can ever be asked or ask themselves do I know God ? And this is a problem in America in terms of there being misguided perception and understanding on the subject of people thinking they know God . Why , would you say ? That is what contributes to that blindness and misunderstanding
. There are a lot of people that think they know the Lord who don't .
Speaker 1This is such a complicated issue . It's not that simple because there's so many ways you can come to this question and we have to recognize that . We're not saying that the unbeliever doesn't know God , because everybody has a knowledge of God . So in that sense they do know God . Romans 1 .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 1But they don't have a saving knowledge of God , they don't have a relationship with God , and I think there's probably a couple of reasons why there are those who think they know God in a saving way , might call themselves Christian , when they're not really is because we have this tendency . It was Calvin , I think , who said that our heart is an idol factory . We're always making these idols . We have a tendency to make God in our own image and we're not having our view of God informed by the scriptures . So there are people that say they know God , but that object of their knowledge is not the true God of the Bible and so they've made God in their own image and they have a God that may be all love or all forgiving and it's just like yeah , I know God , he's fine , my buddy .
Speaker 1My buddy . My buddy , he's just a cosmic Santa Claus and God's in the business of forgiveness . So when I die and I see him , of course he's going to forgive me . That's what God does , right ? But they don't have a knowledge of God that's in accordance with the Bible . They don't truly know the God of Scripture . They know a God that they've made in their own image . And then there's cultural Christianity as well , where , in the US in particular , it's not like this , in Australia , I'm sure , it's not like this in New Zealand , everyone's a Christian .
Speaker 1In America , just because you were born here , they think they're a Christian at least , which makes it really hard to evangelize . I have neighbors that I try and talk to them about the gospel and they tell me they're a Christian . They don't live in accordance with Scripture , they don't go to church . I've got one neighbor , I remember , who said to me that his grandmother , when she was on her deathbed , she was a Roman Catholic . And she said to him just keep doing what you're doing and you'll be fine . And I'd say well , I don't think the Roman Catholic church agrees with your grandmother , and that doesn't line up with scripture either . So many factors at play .
Speaker 3You know , I was thinking this morning about an instance in the life of Samuel and it just it came to mind . I thought , man , you look at that language , especially in the Old Testament , because I think sometimes , you know , we're kind of led to think , I think automatically that the language of knowing God is more kind of New Testament type of language . But I love this . In 1 Samuel 3 , 6 through 7 . This is when God was calling out to Samuel and it says then the Lord called yet again7 . This is when God was calling out to Samuel and it says then the Lord called yet again , samuel . So Samuel arose and went to Eli and said here I am , for you called me . He answered I did not call my son , lie down again Now .
Speaker 3Samuel did not yet know the Lord , nor was the word of the Lord yet revealed to him . And I find that interesting , because here's Samuel . I mean he was obviously circumcised , he was , you know , dedicated over to the Lord , he was being trained to be a priest by Eli and yet he did not yet know the Lord . And I think that's again an important wake-up call for people to recognize that . You know , there is that differentiation between everyone knowing God . And in fact I write about that very clearly in my book Everyone knows God .
Speaker 4Which book is that ?
Speaker 3Oh , fight Like a man , a bold biblical battle plan for personal purity . You're reading it , aren't you , nathan ? I am reading it , yes . So anyway , but in that salvific sense , there must be that intimate knowledge of the Lord through coming to know him as Savior , and so it's important that we understand and recognize that . But , mark , there are those , I think , on the other hand , that might struggle in a way that is not necessary , because they say I thought I knew the Lord , but I struggle , I battle . What would you say to them by way of encouragement to help them recognize it ? It doesn't mean that if you know the Lord that you never struggle as a believer .
Speaker 2I don't know if I understand your question , eze . We are changed from precept to precept , glory to glory , right , we are on this endless quest to know God and to make Him known . I had a debate this morning with ChatGPT about what is the meaning of life , and I had to continually correct what it means and make it an objective answer instead of a subjective answer , and we went back and forth . I eventually won , but then I lost when I asked the question
again . At the very end , when we get asked to maybe sign a book or to sign an autograph somewhere , without fail , I always write the scripture John 17 , 3 , right , which is this is life eternal . That they may know you , the only true God in Jesus Christ whom you have sent . That they may know you , the only true God in Jesus Christ whom you have sent .
Speaker 2I like the way Packer words . It he said once you become aware that the main business that you are here for is to know God , well then most of life's problems fall into place of their own accord . We are running away from persecution and temptation and sufferings , but once you realize and recognize that I am here to know God and then to make Him known to my fellow man , you're going to understand that there are issues . There are issues , but there really are no issues . For the believer , these are just stepping stones in order that we might glorify God . Because have you ever noticed , have you ever been inside that situation where you're going through something ? Right , it's just a horrific situation . We all go through horrific situations , but then , when your eyes are on the Lord , it doesn't matter how tumultuous the storm is , it doesn't matter how crazy life really is , because when your eyes are on the Lord , nothing else really matters . I mean , what can man do to me ? You can't kill me unless my time is up . We have that insurance plan that is out of this world . I have a saying with my friend , donnie Gunter . I said listen , I'm gonna know God more than you know God . Mm-hmm , here's my goal , here's my quest , right , his thoughts for me outnumber the sand of the sea , which some scientists calculate that to be 10 to the 25th power , which is like 100 million billion billion . The number's beyond comprehension . But his thoughts for us can be so detailed for us individually that he doesn't need to have those same thoughts towards other people . Our view of God is actually very little , so I encourage people all the time you can pray bigger , god can handle it little . So I encourage people all the time you can pray bigger , god can handle it . He can handle it . You can cast all your cares on him because he cares for us .
Speaker 2Aw Pink , he said the God of this century no more resembles sovereign holy writ than does the dim flickering of a candle resemble the glory of the midday sun . In other words , we begin to describe God , but it's like trying to compare the light of a candle to that of the sun . We will always come up short when we try to describe God . So , therefore , we describe attributes . Right , god is omnipotent , he's all-powerful , he's omniscient , he knows all things . Right , we begin to use these things , but we cannot comprehend these attributes that go far beyond our understanding . So let him , who glories in this , if you're going to glory in something , that he knows me and that he understands me . And yet we have not begun to know the omniscient one who knows how to create a butterfly's heart . Tremendous , absolutely tremendous . And we're on this quest to know Him .
Speaker 3Amen . I love that you cited Jeremiah 9 , Mark . That's like kind of my go-to verse whenever I'm signing something , because at the end of the day , that is what is prime in the life of every person . Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom , let not the mighty man glory in his might , nor let the rich man glory in his riches , but let him who glories glory in this , that he understands and knows me , that I am the Lord , and it goes on from there . But that's at the heart of it all to know the true and living God . You know , Ray , one of the things that you'll often say to people when you're witnessing to them and you have a sense that they're not saved , is did people ? When you're witnessing to them and you have a sense that they're not saved is did you know the Lord ?
Speaker 4What's behind that ? Yeah , and Hebrews says that do you know the Lord ? They say I was a Christian once . Did you know the Lord ? I'm an atheist now and you say , did you know the Lord ? And they say no , well , you weren't a .
Speaker 2Christian .
Speaker 4If they say yes , then he exists and they put their foot in their mouth because they're supposed to be conundrum . I think what we're looking at today is a very legitimate question to ask what does it mean to know the Lord ? Because there are some tender Christians that are very introspective , that can be thrown into a sense of torment with that question Do I know the Lord ? What does it mean to know the Lord ? I had a friend , it's true , he was on my cartoon . His name was Lindsay Piper and he used to say to me this was years ago , 40 , 50 years ago . He says I keep getting depressed and it's about nothing . And when he told that that made me depressed , I was just so depressed . But he was overly introspective . And we can do this , do I know the Lord ? And that's why it's so important , when we're sharing the gospel , that we don't appeal to the intellect , that we proclaim the gospel , sin , righteousness and judgment , that their faith might not be on the wisdom of men but on the power of God . So what does it mean to know the Lord ? You're given a brand new heart . When I ask myself that question , I examine myself and say am I in the faith ? I look for fruit , fruit of the spirit , fruit of righteousness , fruit of praise , fruit of thanksgiving , et cetera . But I also look to the fact that I'm a brand new creature .
Speaker 4Ray Comfort BC is dead . Completely different guy . I was building my own kingdom for 22 years . Suddenly , in an instant , I wanted to please the God that gave me life more than the air that I breathe , and it's been like that for 50-something years . So important to me to please the God that gave me life more than the air that I breathe , and it's been like that for 50-something years .
Speaker 4So important to me to please God , why ? Because he's given me a new heart , new desires . He's written his law upon my heart and he's caused me to walk in his statutes and , quoting the Living Bible paraphrase , not a translation but he causes me to do the things he wants me to do , without me even telling him to do them . That's what it means to have a new heart . So hereby we know that we know him if we keep his commandments , not out of a legalistic sense , but out of a desire I delight to do your will . Oh my God . That's how I know I'm a new creature For a sin-loving sinner , as I was drinking iniquity like water , eyes full of adultery to suddenly love . Righteousness is a miracle .
Speaker 3Oh , ray , I'm so glad you highlighted that and that's kind of what I was getting to with my brilliant question that Mark didn't understand . There are those that have that perception of right . I'm going through something like your friend . You know I'm depressed . What does that mean ? You know , nathan , you're familiar with the book obviously Knowing God by Packer right , classic , and I love the chapter in there called these Inward Trials , and Packer talks about how there are those who have this perception that if I'm going through hard , difficult , traumatic things then I must not know the Lord .
Speaker 3And he cites John Newton's hymn in there , these Inward Trials , and he talks about how he let the angry powers of hell assault my soul in every part and he gets to the end of it and he says More with his own hand . He seemed intent to aggravate my woe , crossed all the fair designs I schemed , blasted my gores and laid me low . Lord , why is this ? I trembling cried . Will you pursue your worm to death Tis in this way ? The Lord replied . I answer prayer for grace and faith . These inward trials I employ from self and pride to set you free and break your schemes of earthly joy . That you may seek your all in me . I'd love for you to just speak to that , that knowing God doesn't just mean that you have this constant life of bliss and euphoric emotion , and that you have no struggles and trials and challenges . Oftentimes , those that know God may even face those things more than the average person .
Speaker 1Absolutely right . And you , just you think of scripture saying that you know , though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death , I fear no evil , for you are with me . The promise isn't that you won't walk through the valley of the shadow of death Like we will all walk through that valley . The promise of Scripture is that God is with us and because we have this great shepherd , our loving Heavenly Father , that walks with us through these trials , we can find comfort in those moments of depression or anxiety , worry , trials .
I think it was Charles Spurgeon who said it's the doctrine of God's sovereignty that he's in control of all things . That is the pillow that the Christian lays their head on at night .
Speaker 1I could not flourish , I'll just say flourish , but I probably couldn't survive as a Christian if I didn't believe that God was in control of all things . If God was in heaven wishing certain things could take place in my life , but he's like , sorry , nathan , like you're on your own , walk through that valley , walk through that trial . So , as a believer that believes that the scriptures teach there is a sovereign God who loves his people and cares for them , and that all things Romans 8 , 28 , are working together for good for those who love God and according to his purpose . Like I , cling to that promise . The good times , the bad times , when I have money in the bank , when I don't have money in the bank , when I have health , when I don't have health , all of those things in God's mysterious plan are working together for my good . And so the believer that's out there , that's discouraged , I would point them to those promises of Scripture to know that you can actually walk through this season because God is walking with you .
Speaker 1I have a friend , similar to your friend , who would frequently , whenever they sinned , whenever they even to the point of having a thought that they shouldn't have had , would begin to doubt their own salvation and just say , well , I've sinned again .
Speaker 1Clearly I'm not a Christian . And in counseling him and trying to encourage him , very introspective , very tenderhearted , the wrestling that he was going through , the debates he was having in his own head , are not the kinds of questions that an unbeliever is asking Like . The reason that you feel wounded and you feel discouraged and you feel mournful and repentant of this sin , is because God has actually done a work in your life . You're not the dead man that you once were , and so the answer is to repent and get up and follow Jesus , not to stay in that sin and run from God , but to run to him . So I would encourage anyone that's going through whether it's a moment of doubting their salvation or whether it's through a dark trial to run to the God of scripture , repent , follow him or just know that he is the Good Shepherd that can comfort you as you walk through that dark valley .
Speaker 2Listen , I remember going through a difficult trial many years ago and it didn't matter what anybody said to me , I just couldn't get out of it , just despairing of life even . And a pastor friend came up to me and I was overlooking the foyer down below and he said Mark , I just want to remind you that God knows what you're going through and , knowing the nature and the character of God , that changes everything . Right , spurgeon said there's no better way to know God than to know His Word . So if you want to know God , he reveals Himself through His Word . And that put me on a quest to know God in the word and to just meditate through God's word day and night .
Speaker 2Right , god is sovereign . He does whatever he wants , whenever he wants , to whomever he wants . He answers to no one . He doesn't care what you think about it . God is in heaven . He does what he pleases . If he needed wisdom or counsel , you would not know about it .
Speaker 2This is what it means for God to be sovereignly in control of everyone and everything We've talked about . You know , god has a scepter in one hand , a gavel in the other . When that gavel comes down , the court is dismissed , the jury can go home and when he's not permitted to rule , he will overrule . And as we look at our lives and the things that we go through , god is in control . And I think it was Sproul that said if something comes across my plate and it's inside my life , that means first it came across God on into Jesus , and then it came into my life for some great purpose that I may not know about it here in this life . Maybe one day it'll be explained , but if it's not , it's well with my soul , because I know from whom it came , from the sovereign one who rules and reigns supreme .
Speaker 3Yeah , and I think what we have to remember is that our knowledge of God , in a salvific sense , is predicated upon God's knowledge of us . And this is where my soul does backflips , my heart just does gymnastics . Romans 8 , 29 , whom he foreknew , he predestined Like . I mean the forelove and foreknowledge of God of us , in terms of who he made us and creating us in his image , and predestining us for salvation , should be the foundation of our confidence . And this is that balance , you know , because we , as a ministry , we encourage people to examine themselves to see if they're in the faith to make their call and election sure , because we're to do that .
Speaker 3But when we are genuinely saved and we're struggling with different elements , we have to remember this is based on God's foreknowledge of us . He foreknew us , foreloved us and then predestined us , secured us . No one will snatch us out of his hand , nothing will separate us from his love and we'll never hear him say those dreadful words in Matthew 7 , depart from me , you , worker of iniquity . I never knew you . He's known us and will know us eternally because of his grace and mercy .
Speaker 1Makes me think of Galatians 4 . Paul says you have known God , and then a little parenthetical statement where you have been known by God . I love that , yeah , and just recognizing that the knowledge we have of God is because God has been so gracious to give us that knowledge . He first knew us . Why do we love God ? You love God because he first loved you .
Speaker 3Yeah , ray , sometimes people have this disconnect too , and we hear people talk about how you know . Well , I don't need knowledge of God , I know God . But how can we know God without knowing about God ? I love that saying that says every new thing learned about God is a new reason for loving Him . So , ray , this takes us back to the Word . How crucial is the Word and what do you encourage people in that regard in terms of knowing God through knowing what he's revealed about Himself in the Word .
Speaker 4I spoke to a lady the other day . She was very colorful , she was from Iran and she didn't know anything about what was going on in the Middle East , believe it or not . Living in the US , she just closed it off and I said do you ever read the Bible ? She says no . I said it tells you how to get everlasting life . She says I don't ever want . This is a revelation of who God is . That's what the Scriptures are . God reveals himself through Scripture and if we don't look at the light of Scripture we're left in the darkness of idolatry .
Speaker 4Just talking before about feeling a new creature in myself that's my testimony . That's subjective , but when I read Scripture it takes me out of subjectivity and confirms what I feel in the Word . Why do I feel like a new creature ? Because of any man being Christ . He's a new creature .
Speaker 4Why have I got this peace that passes all understanding ? The Bible says the peace of God , which passes all understanding , should keep your heart and mind . Why is it that I've got this joy unspeakable and it's just bubbling up inside me which , when you're a new Christian , you get a double portion , and then God puts you through a wilderness experience , flat on your face . But that first few weeks is just amazing and I remember driving my car and thinking I don't even need music , I just turn the music off .
Speaker 4I always used to listen to music when I was driving . I didn't want it . I didn't need it because I had this joy that was unspeakable , which is confirmed in Scripture . And the other thing is the confirmation not only of Scripture on being a new creature in Christ , but the confirmation of the testimony of other Christians that have had an identical experience . I speak for a living . Yeah , so I mean hearing your testimony . Ez and Mark , your brand new creatures the moment you repented and trusted in Christ , and millions of God-hating , blasphemous , sin-loving sinners are transformed instantly through the power of the gospel through the grace of God .
Speaker 3Amen , Nathan , speaking of knowing God by Packer , one of the things he does is he highlights the attributes of God in that book , Sharnock's volumes on the attributes
of God . I mean I'd love you to speak to that because , again , a part of knowing God is knowing about God , who God is , having intimate understanding of his character and his nature and all that Scripture relates to who he is and his fullness , and all that Scripture relates to who he is in His fullness . So I'd love for you to highlight for us some of the things regarding God's attributes that Christians need to understand and what are some of those and what are some of the beautiful aspects related to them .
Speaker 1Well , I can't be someone that works at Ligonier Ministries and not bring up the holiness of God .
Speaker 1Yeah that's where I was hoping you'd start , yeah if you haven't read the Holiness of God or you haven't watched it , it's free , it's on YouTube . You can see Dr Sproul walk through that series . But for Dr Sproul he became a Christian and I think it was a year or so later , second year of being a Christian , where he describes his subjective experience , but of encountering the holiness of God and he describes it really getting a fuller understanding of God , the Father , and recognized , and as he spent more time as a Christian and was able to observe the church in the US , seeing what he described as the eclipse of God , that the church had elevated God as a God of love , which is true , he is love , god is love , a God of grace and mercy , but the church had really eclipsed God as the Holy One of Isaiah 6 . And so his transformative moment in those early years of being a Christian was recognizing the holiness of God , and that changed the trajectory of his life and ministry . And Ligonier wouldn't be here without that moment , and proclaiming teaching , defending the holiness of God is part of Ligonier's mission statement .
Speaker 1God's holiness is the only attribute in Scripture that's elevated to the third degree . And so you have Isaiah getting this vision of God almost peeking into heaven and you've got the seraphim there and they're crying holy , holy , holy . And I don't know what that vision was like . Even reading just Isaiah 6 , you're getting this little glimpse , but it must have been a magnificent vision . And then what is Isaiah's response to that ? He's like I'm a man of unclean lips , which is so fascinating because Isaiah was a prophet . The one thing that you would think he was good at was speaking . So he took his highest quality , his highest gifting being able to speak and communicate . He's like I'm a man of unclean lips . When you see God in his holiness , when the law of God is put in front of you , you now see yourself as you truly are , and even the best part of you is brought so low . Like Packer speaks of us looking through the wrong end of the telescope .
Speaker 1When we look at God and we make him small Once you see God as this big God , you realize that man is so low . So the holiness of God is an area where most people in the church I would say they're not reflecting on , they're not hearing sermons on the holiness of God . And , yes , god is loving , gracious , merciful , but he has a holy love and we believe in the simplicity of God that we're not breaking him up into parts . So we're going to be careful of that . But God is holy and the church has forgotten this holy God . They're not proclaiming this holy God .
Speaker 1And so , going back to really early part of our conversation , so many people , particularly in the West , see no reason or need to repent because they've never heard about the holy , righteous and just God . There's this billboard . If you listen to RC Sproul's sermons , he often references it , but just in Orlando and it just says God is not angry and it's put there by a church . It's like what are you doing ? Like you are not proclaiming the truth of scripture and you're actually hiding the God of scripture and , you know , inoculating people to the message of the gospel and the need to repent and trust Christ and the wonderful good news Like God is gracious and merciful and it's the greatest news that we can proclaim . But if people don't know that there is a need to repent because God is angry at the wicked and will bring judgment to sinners , and there is a wrath , a judgment coming that the sinner must flee , if that's absent from the preaching of the Bible and the proclamation of the gospel , then you're hiding the good news of the gospel .
Speaker 4You know , home Depot have got a 15-foot ladder that extends up and you could get up on that billboard and just cross out the word not .
Speaker 2That's true , you can do it during the night . Ray's done something similar .
Speaker 4Oh boy .
Speaker 1Well , I'm told I don't actually need the ladder . I have no excuse .
Speaker 3Ray would not understand that sort of existence , you know ,
man . I'm so glad you highlighted that , nathan , because we talk about it in the pagan realm . Oftentimes people will reflect the deities that they worship . You know , we could see that in history . The same holds true , though , with the true and living God , and oftentimes , when we look at the church , we can see by the way the church lives . Speaking about it on a grand scale , we don't see God as holy , we don't reflect His holiness in our own lives , and that's so evident . I'm glad you highlighted that , and even as you're talking about it , my soul's being stirred . When we plumb the depths of who God is , it transforms us as people understanding our God , and then we begin to reflect him .
Speaker 4You know the word holy is foreign to the secular world . It's meaningless . What is holy ? Standing on a balcony like that ? Or sitting on a pole and fasting for 30 days on a pole in India or something ? Is that holy ? I've got no idea of the concept and that's why the law is so important , because the law is perfect , holy , just and good and it gives them a glimpse of God's holiness , causes them to rightly tremble the thought of offending Him because of His holiness .
Speaker 2It reminds me of when Sproul told the story about with Uzzah , with the ark beginning to .
Speaker 4How's it really used ?
Speaker 3Tomato tomato , potato , potato , augustine , augustine . It began to Don't even get into that one . No , no , we won't ask him on there . Augustine or Augustine .
Speaker 1So St Augustine's in Florida , st Augustine's in heaven .
Speaker 3We'll debate that later , Nathan .
Speaker 2But the Ark began to fall , and as it began to fall , the other one went out to try to reach it , and Sproul said what he presupposes that his hands were cleaner than the dirt by which it was going to fall .
Speaker 4That's iconic from Sproul .
Speaker 2It's so good . You know , john Stott said you cannot properly preach the gospel if you do not properly preach Christ . And this is where the cults and everybody else gets it wrong . Right , he's not Michael the archangel , he's not the spirit brother of Lucifer . He's not just a messenger , as is mentioned in the Baha'i faith , or the enlightened one within Buddhism or the New Age . Right , he is the risen Savior , who we have to give an account for .
Speaker 2Him . Who is he ? He's the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world . John 1 . He is the image of the invisible God . Colossians 1 . In him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily . Colossians 2 . Hebrews 1, . He is the express image of the Father who upholds all things by the word of his power and he sits at the right hand of the majesty on high . He's the one mediator between God and man . He is the savior of the world , as 1 . John 4 , 14 says . When we begin to get this wrong , we are preaching a different gospel and you are to be anathema . You are anathema if you preach a different gospel , which is a different Christ . If you cannot get Christ right , you're getting the gospel wrong . This is how important it is to get who God is , who Christ is , correctly when we proclaim Him , as we get to know Him .
Speaker 3Wow Ray . How about we touch on the immutability of God , that he does not change ? I am the Lord , I change not . How consoling is that for the believer .
Speaker 4It means you can rest in his promises . John 14 , 21, . He that has my commandments and keeps them , he that loves me , and he that loves me will be loved of my Father . I too will love him and will reveal myself to him . So salvation comes or the knowledge of God . The experiential knowledge of God comes as we obey him according to that scripture .
Speaker 4So , of all the things we need to get right in life , it's not who you marry . If your marriage busts up , that's tragic , but it's not the end . Same with your vocation . If you choose the wrong vocation . If you choose to be a brain surgeon but you keep to be a brain surgeon , you keep dropping things on people's brains , you mess up . It's not the end of the world for you , maybe for them , maybe for them . But salvation , that is more than tragic . If you mess up on that one , it's a horror beyond words to find yourself , instead of being welcomed into heaven , you find yourself consumed by hell . So all these things come back to the simple truth that salvation rests upon faith in God's promises . It's not subjectivity , it's not just me drawing from your experiences . It's realizing that God has made it so simple . A child can understand it . Believe the promises of God .
Speaker 3Amen and Nathan .
I think that leads us to the sovereignty of God . I think sometimes when people hear that word sovereignty it kind of evokes this sort of dread in their heart in one sense . And for the unbeliever there should be that right , but for the Christian the sovereignty of God is one of the sweetest doctrines . Why is that ?
Speaker 1Yeah , we're not saying that we have this dictator in heaven . Yes , he is sovereign and he's the king of kings , lord of lords , in control of all things . But he is good , he is holy , as we've been talking about the fact that he is holy and good and righteous and just means that we don't have to be afraid of him in the sense that is God just capricious , he's just like . I think I'm just going to poke Mark today because that'll be fun . No , he is good and just and everything he does is holy and righteous . So he's all powerful , in control of all things , is able to work all things together for good for the believer . And we can trust him because we know his character is good and holy and righteous .
Speaker 1If he wasn't good , holy , righteous or just then , it would be a terrifying experience because you don't know what tomorrow might bring . We don't know what tomorrow might bring and it could be a cancer diagnosis , it could be a car wreck , it could be a promotion . But because God is sovereign and he is good , holy and righteous , we can trust that he will be with us and will walk us through those moments . And if God wasn't sovereign , wasn't immutable , how could we trust the promise of salvation and of the good news of the gospel . Maybe something will happen , maybe the devil will do something , maybe I will mess it up , that I will just take some misstep and God's like sorry , I tried to save you . We don't believe in a God who tries to save people . The Lord saves . He actually saves and is redeeming a people for himself .
Speaker 4To the uttermost .
Speaker 3Yeah , you know , I often think about Hannah and I and Mishael and Azariah or Shadrach , meshach and Abednego , when they were faced with that fiery furnace . And first they demonstrated that they trusted in the providence of God , or power of God . Our God , whom we serve , is able to deliver us . But if not , they trusted in his providence . He may have a different purpose in it . We still won't bow , but it's because they knew his person . They said our God , whom we serve , is able to deliver us . They knew his heart , that in his providence and his sovereignty , anything that he allows to happen is for our good , his glory , and we can rest in that .
Speaker 3There's so much more we can talk about . We could get into the omniscience , omnipotence , omnipresence of God , the aseity of God , his self-existence , self-sufficiency , but we're out of time . But all of this is so key . Let me just ask you this as we wrap up , nathan how would you encourage the young Christian who's listening now , who just came to Christ recently and they say I want to grow in knowing this God ? How would you advise them to go about doing that ?
Speaker 1I would say don't neglect the scriptures , because we need to soak ourselves in the scriptures , meditate upon the law of God , the word of God . We have so many Bibles there's a Bible here . We have Bibles on our apps . We have so many Bibles on our bookshelves , our nightstands , and for the Christian that's been a Christian for some time , they can be covered in dust and we're not opening them so , consumed with social media doom scrolling . I would say to the new believer and the seasoned believer don't neglect the scriptures , because it's there where we learn about this God . It's there that we are reminded of the promises of this God , the promises of the gospel , the good news that we can be forgiven and we'll be saved to the uttermost , and so find yourself in the word of God . Now you can go to Living Waters and you have incredible resources . Ligonier Ministries has wonderful resources . There's so much material out there that we can access . Get a good study Bible , a commentary , and dig deep , but don't neglect the Word of God .
Speaker 4What's your website address ?
Speaker 1Yeah , ligonierorg . So I'm sure everyone can spell that just by me saying Ligonier but , it's . L-i-g-o-n-i-e-rorg , or download the free .
Speaker 3Ligonier app and where can they find your program ?
Speaker 1Yeah , so Renewing your Mind . Just search for Renewing your Mind on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts . You can follow me on social media at NWBingham , on most of the social platforms .
Speaker 3Wow , good stuff , brother .
Speaker 3Thanks for joining us today , thank you for the invitation , much taller , much more handsome than Oscar , although we'll have to work on the Augustine thing , but we'll pray for you . All right , friends , there you have it . Know your God , that's what it's all about , and understand that he does knock so that you would open up and sup with Him . That's for the believer , believe it or not , he wants you to allow him to come in and have fellowship with you and you with him , and so do that and understand that . That is the sum of the matter . Thank you for joining us , friends . We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast . We're still that's not applicable to Nathan , but the three of us here have no idea what we're doing .