There was a big bust like five years ago in Irvine . They had trafficked prostitutes from Japan and they were in a really nice apartment complex . They had like eight or nine different apartments that the traffickers were renting out and it was basically a brothel in the middle of a middle upper class community . I mean , you guys know Irvine , it's a nice community .
Speaker 2There was a big bust this past week in .
Speaker 1Los .
Speaker 2Angeles , where hundreds of people went down . But to your point , ray Tim Keller , he had said if you're helping suffering people but not calling out the forces that caused the suffering , you're not fully doing justice . So you're right , we have to take it a step further . Why is this happening ? Where is this happening ? What can I do to kind of be involved in this right ? We're talking about the church's role in the fight against human trafficking and I think that we have to start with , there's a responsibility to defend the oppressed . Do we recognize that ? All right now we can have a conversation where to move forward . Have a conversation where to move forward .
Speaker 3Yes , friends , I do sing . Yes , I am a singer . Many have said I am a very good singer Not one . But today , friends , I'm going to let someone sing instead of me about me .
Speaker 2Okay . Mark's into it Knowledge . Uh-oh , mark's feeling . The vibe Acknowledge that new movie you learned recently .
Speaker 3Here we go , here we go .
Speaker 4No superstition . Is it IOI ? Yes , where did you get that Superstition ? Oh guys , is that AI ?
Speaker 3Yes , when did you get that ? Compliments of Eric Hovind Boy that's good , isn't it good ?
Speaker 1Yeah , it really is Oscar's jealous . I'm just concerned about our listenership .
Speaker 5No , seriously , I thought we're going to have trouble with copyright , but that's AI .
Speaker 3AI . No human being involved in this .
Speaker 1Except you . You've got to set a prompt .
Speaker 5I did ruin it .
Speaker 3I added my voice in it , but yeah , I love myself .
Speaker 5Well , that was great , easy , easy . You've been taking drugs this morning .
Speaker 3Oh , I have . Oh , I'm serious , it's this weirdness . It's still kind of coming and going . I had a tooth issue , friends .
Speaker 5It's normal .
Speaker 3I know . How can anyone tell the difference ? Yes , I had an abscess in my tooth which I had to look up to figure out what it was . But I went to the dentist . He cut me open Great brother , by the way , yes , dr Lin , he's worked on your teeth , yes , ray , many times . Uh , but yeah , cut me open , drilled into my tooth , drained it and then gave me antibiotics , and I hate antibiotics because the side effects , oh yeah , so I'm in my office before we came out . I mean , we delayed recording by an hour because my brain just froze and , uh , I felt like I was in a dream world .
Speaker 5That's a horrible feeling , isn't it ?
Speaker 3Oh , absolutely horrible .
Speaker 5So who counseled you to drink lots of water to wash it through Right ?
Speaker 4comfort , thank you .
Speaker 1Also dried grapes . Stop it , Dried grapes . I don't think people realize how good dried grapes are . Man , raisin , raisin . I'm just out here raising awareness . That's terrible .
Speaker 4D . I'm just out here raising awareness .
Speaker 5That's terrible , and Troy Cripes . Anyway , I got to tell you guys I just got back from Cuba . Will we notice a difference in you ? Are you better ?
Speaker 3I don't know , man . Seriously , I'll see if I make it through this thing . Cuba , yeah , how was Cuba ? Oh my goodness . Cuba , oh goodness . You know I had my preconceived ideas about Cuba . You know , you hear communist and oppression and stuff . I think Ricky Ricardo , yeah , babaloo Lucy , yeah , and it's true , because there is that element . But boy , the church is on fire there , really yeah . So myself , brother Luis and Jose , who heads up some of our Spanish stuff in Colombia , we went and the Hunger .
Speaker 5So we have a Spanish channel and website .
Speaker 3Yeah , we do Living .
Speaker 5Waters .
Speaker 3Español . We're over like 416,000 subscribers now .
Speaker 2If you speak Spanish , it is such a great channel .
Speaker 3Yeah , over 50 million views . Man , it's crazy . It's really good , but yeah . So anyway , I got up and I was in tears . They had a worship night the first night . I was going to speak , but it was kind of in another area , but just hearing the fervor in their worship of the Lord , and so I was in tears over that . And then I get up and I said I said , brothers and sisters , I just have to tell you that the church in Cuba is alive , the church in Cuba is powerful , the church in Cuba loves Jesus , and the place exploded . I mean whew . I was just like yeah , and I sensed they felt so loved that someone from the US would go there , because it's not easy , you have to get a special visa and most people just don't want to go there . But I told them that the church in the United States loves you , we're standing behind you , we're with you .
Speaker 5And it's always good to actually go physically to places like this . Yes , is that right , ray ?
Speaker 3Let's not discuss that , Ray , but I was so refreshed and they want to take our training and the resources of our ministry and incorporate them into their seminaries over there .
Speaker 5Did you film any of it ? Oh yeah , Well , can you give it to me and I can put it up behind the scenes for Living Waters TV .
Speaker 3Yeah , I'll have to give you some of that , yeah sell it to me . Anyway .
Speaker 5Cuba .
Speaker 3I smoked so many cigars . Oh boy , that's the first thing you think of when you think of Cuba . That's where the absence came from . Yeah , that's right .
Speaker 4So anyway , friends .
Speaker 3I'm back . We will see how I survive this , because I am going in and out of weirdness . But how I survive this because I am going in and out of weirdness but we're used to it Seriously , like anyone would know the difference . We have a cool , classy comment this is from Ohio . Hello brothers , the name I'm gonna use the name Jay just to protect their identity . What ?
Speaker 1is it ?
Speaker 3Hello brothers , the name is Jay and I've truly been edified by this podcast and the Living Waters ministry I was struck by . I was stuck at my parents' house just last year and the environment wasn't that good , to be honest with you guys Lots of yelling and fighting , but the worst of it was the absence of God All my life . My parents were lukewarm in their faith , so I knew about Jesus to an extent . Praise the Lord in their faith , so I knew about Jesus to an extent . Praise the Lord , though . On the year 2020 , god met me in this situation . I was lost in my sin and it was utterly consuming me . I was lazy as all could be and a lover of pornography . I was also a mad kid , but one day I have no idea how it got on my YouTube feed , but Ray's somewhat beautiful face what Wrong .
Speaker 1You added that I don't know about the legitimacy of this email anymore .
Speaker 3Ray's somewhat beautiful face appeared on my feed and it was something to do with sin . And , oh , it hit me down to the core . After the video was over , I was weeping and realized my sin . That same moment I went to the Lord and asked for forgiveness , and now I'm saved from my sin . Oh man , it's wonderful . Now I've moved in with my grandfather , who is a faithful man , and go to a scriptural church , and I'm really involved and even have the desire to be a bishop or elder , as described in Timothy . So I appreciate all God has done through you men , and I'm grateful to be brothers with you all . Keep up the good work and keep running the race that is set before us Much love and thanks to you all .
Speaker 1Wow , that's awesome . And what was that guy's social security ?
Speaker 3number Raise Beautiful Face . I love that .
Speaker 5AI , that'd be a nice , it's got to be AI . That's the same something from 40 years ago .
Speaker 1Ever since we started our ministry for the blind we . This is something from 40 years ago Ever since we started our ministry for the blind .
Speaker 3We've been getting a lot of emails like this . That'd be a nice email address RaiseBeautifulFacecom .
Speaker 4We should look into that . All right , friends . Oh , was that Yale , yale .
Speaker 5He doesn't laugh so much .
Speaker 4Yeah , cameraman . Thank you , yale . And now Radical Revolutionary Resource . This podcast is brought to you by the Elon Musk million dollar bill .
Speaker 5We wanted to do the billion dollar bill , but there's not enough room for the zeros .
Speaker 3I know we should go for . He's going to be a trillionaire probably one day . He's like 450 billion . Is it at that now ?
Speaker 2Four more than 400 billion . That is insanity , Ray . What would you do ?
Speaker 5with that money ? Well , I think of them every time I use PayPal Because , ray , what would you do with that money ? Well , I think of them every time I use PayPal because they take a little cut now that they didn't use to .
Speaker 3Seriously , if I had that much money , I would literally create . You guys remember Scrooge McDuck's vault ?
Speaker 1The vault you would dive into and swim . I would create a real one of those that's based on a true story .
Speaker 5So , ray , ask me what I'd do if we had that money , we'd make all our tracks free and free shipping . Amen may god grant that to us , amen .
Speaker 3So , ray , you came up with this harebrained idea , you know , on musk million dollar bill track . Uh , we're gonna get hate mail , didn't you ? Why are you ?
Speaker 5looking yes , but we had an obama million . Yeah , so we're , it's okay , but you came up with this one so I'm saying yeah .
Speaker 3So we're gonna get hate mail about Elon Musk .
Speaker 4You guys support Elon .
Speaker 3Listen , guys , for the gospel . Okay , Don't go crazy .
Speaker 5Elon supports us too .
Speaker 3Yeah , we wish .
Speaker 4Elon , if you're listening .
Speaker 3Yeah , so anyway , check it out the Elon Musk Million Dollar Bill track . He's kind of a hot commodity now , so we'll get the gospel out through that . Don't forget the Living Waters mug , the Heaven and Study Bible , living Waters TV . Oh , and Living Waters podcast YouTube channel . We mentioned it last time , but check it out France . It's kind of getting some activity . It's growing little by little , but you could see clips . What's cool is that we're doing some kind of highlights , different things from the podcast .
Speaker 5You mean you take the cream , yeah , so it's like 15 seconds .
Speaker 3That's a good way to put it Three seconds .
Speaker 4All right friends .
Speaker 3Today , oh all , at livingwaterscom .
Speaker 4Today we're talking about oh , wow , oh , I totally totally ignore Oscar .
Speaker 5He has no reason to live .
Speaker 1I should just go , I'll let myself out .
Speaker 4All at livingwaterscom .
Speaker 3Yeah , there we go , we're back , we're back . All right friends Today we're talking about the church's role in the fight against human trafficking . Guys , very few things make me as sick as this . Um , what was the movie mark that was out the big ?
Speaker 5sound of freedom ready .
Speaker 3Sound of freedom .
Speaker 5Look race prepared you , you , uh encouraged me to go and see it , so I went by myself in the afternoon and watched it ah , you rolled your eyes out , right very , very . Yeah , bull Mize , there's a new one they put out same director .
Speaker 3I think City of Dreams , Ooh .
Speaker 5Yeah .
Speaker 3Is that in the theaters ?
Speaker 5Yeah , I think so pretty soon . A lot of celebrities endorsed it , lots and lots of celebrities and I thought , as I was watching it wouldn't it be great if they could endorse a movie against abortion ?
Speaker 2Human trafficking .
Speaker 5That gets their sympathy , but abortion doesn't .
Speaker 3That's so true . Yeah , I ended up going and seeing the movie and then I think I don't know if I mentioned on the podcast before , but I ended up seeing the guy in an airport . He was on one of Were we together , mark yeah we were together .
Speaker 2That's right , you recognized , was it you ? No , you did . No , laura did , was it Laura ?
Speaker 3Laura recognized me , okay , yeah yeah , that's right , and you were determined to give a track . I think we were at the Ark or somewhere , I don't know . Anyway , yeah , he was on our plane and then we get off and he's in the airport . He's on man love the movie Powerful . Just appreciate what you do . Give him some tracks . Well , that's great , but yeah , but . But like I was saying , Was he nice to you . He was very nice . He was on the phone .
Speaker 5Yeah .
Speaker 3Yeah , so I kicked him , as you should Shin kick .
Speaker 1Yeah , I'm , I'm really glad we're talking about this , this . So this is an area for me that I've always probably similar to you and maybe everyone else . Honestly , that just like wrenches my heart . I think part of the reasons why is having grown up experiencing sexual abuse and having a small understanding of what it's like to not have control over your own body or future . And I think one thing that we should start with is just recognizing the significance of the problem , because I think most of us thing that we should start with , just recognizing the significance of the problem , because I think Most of us think man , like slavery , which is human trafficking , is modern-day slavery . Slavery is is probably still an issue here , but it's the trickling effects of a catastrophic past . But actually there are more
slaves today than there were seized in Africa in the four centuries of the transatlantic slave trade .
Speaker 5I was going to bring the same thing up . Why do we call it human trafficking when it's just slavery ? What's ? The reason for changing it . And it's probably because we like to think as human beings . We have dealt with slavery . That's a thing of the past .
Speaker 1But it's not , it's here , it's because man's heart's wicked and evil .
Speaker 1Definitely , and I think another reason potentially is that slavery today looks a lot different , and so if we labeled it slavery , people would go well , wait a minute , no one's in change . It's not like outwardly open , it's hidden . We walk by potentially people who are being trafficked every day . We don't know , rather than like in transatlantic slave trade , it was very clear who the slaves were , and so there's more slaves today than in any other point in human history , which goes against the narrative that , like , somehow we're moving past it . There's 21 , potentially 21 million people who are being human trafficked , who are basically slaves . Uh , it's so . Slaves today are cheaper than they have been through all of human history . Through human history , they say the average slave cost about $40,000 . Today , the average slave costs $90 , $90 to enslave someone . Uh , in the Netherlands . What does that mean ? Yeah , break that down . What do you mean by that ? You go on the internet . I have a girl , she's for sale $90 .
Speaker 5Enslave someone in the Netherlands . So what does that mean ? Yeah , break that down . What do you mean by that ? You go on the internet and sell it . I have a girl .
Speaker 2She's for sale $90, . She's yours . No , no , no .
Speaker 1Yeah , good point . So it's that they what it costs them to enslave a person . Okay , and that ? So , going on that in the Netherlands they did a report to try to figure out how much the average person makes per human trafficked person slave $250,000 a year . In other words , there's significant money to gain here . And again , it's not just overseas 77% of people trafficked in the US are people of color . 48% are involved in adult prostitution or sent into . 40% is child prostitution , 14% is labor trafficking . The average age of someone trafficked at the beginning is between 12 and 14 years old .
Speaker 1And so I want to tell a story , because I think people are like how does this happen in the modern day ? And so I found this story of Chandra . She was a financial analyst in Indonesia and she was a Christian and she lost her job and was experiencing persecution in Indonesia over her faith . So she got online looking at more of a Christianized nation in her mind . This is early 2000 . She finds an opportunity in Chicago in the United States , and so she applies for her visa . She works through a job recruiter which charges her $3,000 . She's planning to come out to Chicago .
Speaker 1She lands her first land is in jfk airport and the people that posed themselves as job recruiters were traffickers . They met her in new york and they drugged her and put her into a brothel for years in new york . At one point a woman walks into the brothel and hands her a card in secrecy and chandra figures out a way to escape and she calls that woman . That woman worked for another person that was involved in sex slavery , so they just trafficked her . She goes into another trafficking ring and eventually escapes that as well , Ends up homeless on the streets in New York and meets a Christian who helps her get things in order and get document , because one of the things that they do is they take away your documentation .
Speaker 5Is this a book or a movie ?
Speaker 1She ended up starting a nonprofit organization . So this has all been written out . I think she has a book about it . But anyways , long story short , she ends up getting on her feet , Christian woman , and starts a nonprofit organization helping people with sex trafficking and slavery . But the point is this happens every single day .
Speaker 5It happens all around us . Do we ever hear of people being prosecuted for this ? I don't hear of big rings of people being Well , like that movie , they have done busts .
Speaker 3That's the aim .
Speaker 5That was in South America , wasn't it ? I'm talking about the huge industry in the US .
Speaker 1There was a big bust like five years ago in Irvine . They had trafficked prostitutes from Japan and they were in a really nice apartment complex . They had like eight or nine different apartments that the traffickers were renting out and it was basically a brothel in the middle of a middle upper class community . I mean , you guys know Irvine , it's a nice community .
Speaker 2There was a big bus this past week in .
Speaker 1Los .
Speaker 2Angeles , where hundreds of people went down . But to your point , ray , you know Tim Keller . He had said if you're helping suffering people but not calling out the forces that caused the suffering , you're not fully doing justice , right , so you're right . Right , we have to take it a step further . Why is this happening ? Where is this happening ? What can I do to kind of be involved in this ? Right , we're talking about the church's role in the fight against human trafficking and I think that we have to start with . There's a responsibility to defend the oppressed . Do we recognize that ? All right , now we can have a conversation where to move forward .
Speaker 3Yeah , and Mark , I'm so glad you highlighted that because you know we've talked about the pendulum , right , it's constantly swinging to either extreme and I think that because of the whole social justice movement and connection with wokeness
, we just kind of act like we , as Christians , don't get involved in that stuff . That disgusts me it really does , yeah .
Speaker 3It's like someone hijacks something , twists it and then we just throw it overboard . That's insanity . We are the light of the world , we are the salt of the earth . I mean we can't abdicate that and recognize our ability to have impact and effect . You know , and so yeah . So I think first of all we need to recognize like this goes way back , because whether it's sex trafficking and that's kind of a part of you know our focus today , but whether it's that or human trafficking in general people taking human beings you know our focus today , but whether it's that or human trafficking in general people taking human beings this goes far back . Exodus 21 , 16, . He who kidnaps a man and sells him , or if he is found in his hand , shall surely be put to death .
Speaker 5That stops it , doesn't it ? That's it , that's right .
Speaker 3Yeah , and you know , and I mean , look in the law there are a lot of different prohibitions and many of them didn't include the death penalty . But those that did , you knew they were severe in the sight of God . And so there is an abomination in Scripture that deals with kidnapping someone , taking someone , I mean , and you think of the horrors of that , you know . I remember one time we were at a fair fair and I thought I had lost my daughters , summer and Julia , when they were little girls .
Speaker 3I mean , you guys are dads , you understand that moment in time I'm like , and to me , the horror of a parent having had a child abducted for years and not knowing what's happened to them . I mean the daily nightmare of just not even being able to sleep , like thinking your child's out there and what's happening to them , and you know those cases you hear about . Like someone 20 years later is found and escapes , like this lady , it's just , it's madness .
Speaker 2I remember sitting my girls down when they were younger and it wasn't just a one-time event where I said , listen , trafficking is very real . I had to explain it at a very early time . And then what to do in the midst of it . Because what do you do ? Right , in a spiritual sense , you raise your fist at God . Where is God ? Why didn't God prevent this from happening ? If God is loving and all powerful , why do the innocent suffer ? And I remember walking through with my girls , even recently , on how to even worship God in the midst of this and not to accuse God of wrongdoing . And I believe that my girls got to a place they haven't arrived , they haven't attained , but it's the realization that this is a fallen world and there are dark people out there wanting to do some dark things .
Speaker 5Didn't you almost lose your daughter in Paris to human trafficking ?
Speaker 2Yeah , well , I don't know that it was indeed human trafficking , but it did seem like that to me , absolutely . We were right by the pier , at the raised foundation , where a lot of people take pictures there .
Speaker 1You mean of the .
Speaker 2Eiffel Tower . Excuse me , yeah , this guy and another guy just honed in on my daughter and they were following us to different places . To make a long story short , it definitely scared us enough to where we ran back to the hotel and we took the first flight out of there to come home .
Speaker 1I love what both you guys were saying earlier , and I don't want to get lost on it because uh nice . Oh sorry , Both Mark and easy . Uh , not anything you've said so far at all , like we can just delete all of that .
Speaker 1Uh no , you know it's . It's really important . You quoted Keller earlier . He wrote a book called generous justice and he does a great job in that book of pointing out , pointing out that we fall into these two extremes that you were alluding to , which is like there's the liberal Christians that lose sight of the gospel for the sake of justice , and then he points out but there's also a conservative side that loves the cross and the gospel and salvation so much that we make little the work of justice . We think it's just of the heart , that it's always just a sin issue and if more people get saved , that's all that needs to happen . And any talk of justice perks our ears and makes us weary of liberalism . And I love what you said . There's this balance of both of those things . When we Jonathan Edwards said it great , he said when we see God , we desire beauty and we step into hardship for the sake of justice and mercy .
Speaker 3Amen . Yeah and Ray , I mean that's not like a novel concept . Someone came up with justice , maybe the term social justice , but there is such a thing as biblical justice and God loves it . How do we , as Christians , tap into that ?
Speaker 5Yeah , Micah 6.8 . Flavorful , he has shown thee O man , what is good and what the Lord requires of you . Sing it , do justice , love mercy . It's tough , mark , sing it . What a terrible thing . Yeah , so there's that balance of salt and light . Let me just share something here Every human being is a victim of human trafficking . According to scripture , certain the Lord must not strive , but be gentle to all men and meet us , instructing those that oppose themselves if God pervention will give them repentance , the acknowledging of the truth that they might recover themselves out of the snare of the devil who has taken them captive to do his will . And so we've got the gospel that sets people free . So , on one hand , we stand for justice and social issues . On the other hand , we take that glorious gospel that takes people out of the hands of the devil and makes them free .
Speaker 3Amen .
Speaker 3Well , you know , I think what would be the thing that would most likely happen for someone who's either delivered from sex slavery , or someone who has had a family member delivered from sex slavery , or someone who has had a family member delivered from sex slavery and the church is just trying to help them , at the end of the day , if they're not touched by the gospel , it's probably gonna lead to radical bitterness and hatred and again like a spite toward God versus like , yeah , understanding the gospel , every person , even understanding their own sin and guilt before the Lord .
Speaker 3Because I think it's easy sometimes for those that have been victimized like that to see themselves still as sinners that are in need of God's mercy and grace . So I think let's get practical here . I think one of the first and most important things the church can do to help fight this is , first of all , to bring awareness to the reality of these things . I was talking to a young Christian that I was discipling a while ago and he was kind of shrugging his shoulders at the concept of Christians knowing the news and what's going on in the world , like they don't need an awareness .
Speaker 1Yeah , like no listen , I don't care about the news and it's like again on in the world Like they don't need an awareness .
Speaker 3Yeah , like we don't . No , I don't listen , I don't care about the news and it's like again , salt of the world , light of the earth , if anyone should know what's going on in the world it's us .
Speaker 3And I think , when you think that way , it's part and parcel with the misunderstanding of what our connection with the Lord really means , like the power that God has to answer prayers and that we , as Christians , have the privilege of being able to enter into . You know the benefit of being able to enter into prayer like that . But I say all that to say awareness , so like informing the church about these things , because there are a lot of Christians that just don't know , like the extent to which this stuff is going on . So , oscar , how can leadership , how can pastors , effectively do that in a way that's going to help people see what's going on ?
Speaker 1That's a great question . I think the calendar year gives us an opportunity to do that , and it could be so short . You know , just the other day we were at church and it was I
can't remember what we call it the pro-life day , the sanctity of life day .
Speaker 3And our Life .
Speaker 1Sunday . Thank you so much .
Speaker 1And our pastor takes the first five , 10 minutes and brings forward an organization in our city that's working to basically save these babies , and so to spotlight those organizations at the right time . I think we can do the same thing with human trafficking . I think it starts with our leaders to understand the significance of making our people aware , or even during events Like here's another example this upcoming Sunday and I know that this is going to get released at a different time , but this upcoming Sunday is Super Bowl , right ? Yes , Okay , Super Bowl is one of the peak in human trafficking during Super Bowl is massive . So instead of getting up and making your joke about , hey , thanks for being here during Super Bowl Sunday , we'll get you home quick so you can watch the game , how about stop and just recognize ? Here's a problem that happens .
Speaker 3Can we just stop and pray ?
Speaker 1for those individuals .
Speaker 3Yeah , you know . It just made me think , oscar , as to why sometimes pastors don't do that . They don't want to be a downer . They don't want to be a downer . They don't want to rain on anyone's parade . Come on , that's so disgusting . I mean , you're talking about something that's going on and , speaking of highlighting things , I was just talking to a pastor yesterday who just went to Los Angeles in connection with Samaritan's Purse to film and bring attention to what was going on with the fires out there . And if churches would use their media power I mean , you have some big churches out there and they have people as well , but to highlight these things , to bring attention to them . And then Mark social media . I mean , again , people may not have millions of followers , but isn't that a good avenue for people ? I mean , we're posting silly things with cats and frogs and whatever . Whoa , whoa , whoa . Hey , I really enjoy those guys .
Speaker 2And there's also a danger attached to that as well . Right , william Warburg Forrest . He said you may choose to look the other way , but you can't say that you . What is the quote exactly ? You may choose to look the other way , but you can never say again you did not know .
Speaker 2Bruce Garner , your pastor , had an event at his church several years ago that I went to with my wife , where he brought in an expert with the LAPD dealing with sex trafficking and she brought awareness to your point dealing with social media , that it begins with social media that we need to be on our guard , and I remember a young man had contacted me and he was being sextorted . Sextorted is what happens when you think you're talking to somebody through social media , through DMing or something along that nature , and they send you a photo of themselves without any clothes on and they get you to do the same thing , and then you come to find out that that person is a bit of a plant . You know they're a poe , they don't belong , and what happens is they kind of make their way into your circle by following the same sort of people that you're following , and then they start following people and the person doesn't even exist and from there you start getting a relationship , you think , with this person , and nobody's ever met the person . And so once you send that photo which my friend did , sent a photo of himself without clothes on they said they now required money from the person . Send me money and I will make this go away .
Speaker 2If not , I'm now going to send it to all of your friends who I know who they all are . And so now you find yourself in a weird loop . Right that , what do I do ? Do I acquiesce to this ? Do I allow this to happen ? Do I send this Because it'll never end ? Well , there was a case where a kid committed suicide .
Speaker 5That's exactly what it leads to .
Speaker 2And what this lady had said at Bruce Garner's church is you never give into that , you never send any money , you just let it go . Well , you keep clothes on first . Yeah , but if you find yourself in the position where you did that , go to your pastors , go to your family and confess . What do I do with this ? But you never have any sort of communication with those people ever again . And what can you do individually to answer your question ? Yeah , you can raise awareness .
Speaker 2Christine Kane , she's the founder of A21 . She deals with modern anti-trafficking . She's a modern anti-trafficking leader . And she said the opposite of love is not hate , it's indifference , and indifference is the enemy of justice that we need to be able to speak up . We need to open up our mouth , as Proverbs 31 says , for the mute and for the rights of all who are destitute . Open up your mouth , judge righteously and defend the rights of the poor and the needy . Mother Teresa said you may not be able to feed a thousand , but you can feed one . It's easy to begin to think that you can't do very much . So Ray feeds the world with In-N-Out gift cards .
Speaker 5Right , yep . And while we're at it , we've got a weight problem in the US and I've caused it . You're adding to it and you've caused it .
Speaker 2But while we're on the subject , I do want to bring this to light , and that is because of the advertisement that Winter Stencil is doing . Oh yes , mark , that they have horrific sexual innuendos with their hats , with their material . I wrote to them in three different ways and I said listen , I have supported you guys for so long . I can no longer , in a clear conscience , do this , respond , respond to this . There's a group of people out there that just want food and they don't want your innuendos .
Speaker 2What a novel idea I said please respond to this and they're not responding and I can't say how horrific they are . But I am done with winter stencil because of it . I'm not saying other people have to do it and I'm not trying to say we need to boycott winter stencil . Look , I'm done . I personally need to draw a line in the sand and say I'm done . You guys are so horrific and it's hard because I have supported them vocally for so many years and they have no idea what they're doing in the midst of this . So I'm sadly done with Winters and Soul . I've followed your lead in this easy , because you did this with Carl's Jr when it came to their horrific commercials .
Speaker 5I'm doing the same with cilantro , cilantro . No , I like onions . They're just not good for marriage .
Speaker 3No , mark , that's good , and I think that's something else that each individual Christian can do . You follow your conscience on that and you let everyone make their own decision . But I love that because I know how much you love Wienerschnitzel . That's a big deal , that's true , but that's where we stand up and we say no , I'm not going to contribute to this . And this brings up a good point , ray , heading this stuff off in terms of what we can do at its source , of what causes that right , like you climb up and put a blanket on a billboard or something .
Speaker 5No one would ever do that no one would do that no one would be crazy enough to do that .
Speaker 4I did not put a blanket on a billboard .
Speaker 5I put it on a lady's naked body On a billboard , on a billboard .
Speaker 3Yeah , make sure to clarify . On a billboard . I'm sorry , good point , it was a billboard .
Speaker 5It was a billboard , yeah , something . I hit the staple gun and it not be backwards when I hit it and I thought I was going to end up at the bottom of the billboard with a red blanket over me .
Speaker 1I could just see Ray rolling up the windows .
Speaker 5We have a picture of that don't we , yes , we do , oh man .
Speaker 3But Ray fighting .
Speaker 5Let me answer your question even before you ask it , I wasn't aware . I'm pretty aware of news , I know who the president is and a few other things like that , but I wasn't aware of human trafficking trafficking until you made me see that film . Sorry , encouraged me to see that film and that made me aware of it and I look back to when we brought our kids up . It's the picture , mark .
Speaker 3This is the picture of Ray you have it , Mark yeah . No way .
Speaker 1Have you seen it , Oscar ? I've seen it . Yeah , Show the camera .
Speaker 3It seriously never ceases to make me laugh . And Ray , that's like on a busy corner right there .
Speaker 5It was your daughter caused it , did she ? We were going along in our car and she says don't , look , now there's a disgusting billboard , and it was . I looked . Was that Julia ? That was your wife .
Speaker 3Oh , you said my daughter . That was just to confuse you . Oh , boy , because I really didn't know what was going on . You were totally confused , we're both taking antibiotics .
Speaker 1Yes , yes , it's the antibiotics .
So and purchased an 18 , 16-foot ladder and got a great big orange blanket and my staple gun and went up there and covered that lady up and I send a news release out saying ABC , who had put it up there , come and get me . I've damaged your property Because I would like to go to court and say how dare you put a pornographic billboard up where my family I don't want my wife raped because of your horny billboard ?
Speaker 3Can I say that word ? No , no , use the New Zealand word . Lusty billboard , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 5So anyway , to answer your question , I wasn't aware of that and I look back in New Zealand when our kids brought your wife and my two sons , we had let them out on the streets to play for hour after hour on their bikes .
Speaker 3Yeah , Rachel always thinks back on that .
Speaker 2Yeah , For days and weeks would have no idea where they were at Months and years We'd throw food out the window and that was it every couple of days .
Speaker 5But we never had concern that they'd be kidnapped , it wasn't even in the radar . And over here I see kids on the streets just running around , no adult with them . And I've seen you can see videos online of motorbikes coming along , scoop up some five-year-old under the arm and away . They go and disappear and never to be seen again . And this movie I saw this morning , the Sound of Freedom follow-up . They showed the trailer and this guy just grabs a young guy he's about six or seven , puts him in his car and a cop stops him and says is this your son ? He says yeah , can I see his passport ? And he holds up the passport of the kid Already , had it . What ? Yeah ? And you think what ? Because they got his picture beforehand so they'd be ready for the law to stop it . So it's a horror beyond words . And parents , never let your kids get out of your sight , right ?
Speaker 3Yeah , amen , yeah , and I think you know heading it off by again , as believers speaking out against sexual sin . You know , taking a stand , like you did , ray , as believers speaking out against sexual sin . Taking a stand , like you did Ray , in different forms of being able to speak , because we have influence . You have parents in schools where they're putting these books that are sexually explicit . I mean this is basically grooming kids to be sexual predators from an early age and desensitizing them to it and get it in their minds and letting so .
Speaker 2Taking steps like that and , mark , advocating for policy changes in the legal arena or in the political arena right , yeah , you see lots of parents that have , especially during the Biden administration , would grab a hold of a book inside of the school library , go before the council , the council men and women , and read different portions of the book and then them being led outside or being arrested for doing that and causing a disruption . But it's like you have to stand up . There has to come a line where you say I'm not going to cross that anymore , where you've crossed this line and enough is enough .
Speaker 1You guys are reminding me of another chapter in Generous Justice which talks exactly about this . It's like he points out there's three areas in which we need to be involved in help . He says the first area is relief . Relief is the idea that you see someone . It's like the good Samaritan you see somebody in pain , you see somebody in pain in some sort of turmoil , and we do something to rescue that individual person . Then he talks about restoration , which is not just that you get those people back up on their feet , but you preach the gospel to them . They might come to a saving faith and you help them in a restorative way so that one day not only are they living a healthy , beautiful life , but they can give back towards the problem . But the other thing he talks about is reform , and that's exactly what you're talking about , and reform could be laws , but it could also be . It is also recognizing the cultural precedence that gives way to make these things okay , and I always imagine hearing this podcast through the lens of a non-believer , them thinking to themselves well , wait a minute . It's nobody's fault , but the trafficker's fault For sure . The trafficker is primarily responsible , but because of the porn industry , because of the over-sexualization of women . Our culture has created the environment that makes these horrific things possible .
Speaker 1Louise Perry is an author . She's a secular , not a Christian , a former feminist . She wrote a book called the Case Against the Sexual Revolution and in it she , at the end advocates for a Christian view of sexuality , talking about monogamous , same sex marriage , monogamous marriage and not having sex until marriage is like the best thing for society . She's looking at it from a secular perspective , but the thing that she points out is that the over-sexualization of women has led to rape . Culture has led to these human trafficking issues that we have today . In other words , the environment we have created for ourselves is creating or perpetuating a problem , and in order to change the problem , sure , we need to provide relief , restoration , but we also need to talk about reform .
Speaker 3Yeah , no , absolutely , and I think another thing that we need to do is we need to raise up men who fight in these arenas , men who become protectors .
Speaker 5You mean fight like a man .
Speaker 4Oh , I've heard of that .
Speaker 3That sounds like a bold biblical battle plan for personal purity . But seriously though , men are wimps . Men don't do anything anymore to stand up . Look , there was a social experiment that made me so irate . It was like a little kid sitting at a bus stop or in a public place on a bench or something , and it was a social experiment . The kid's an actor , right , but they had , like a pedophile , come up and begin to like hey , what are you doing ? And they made sure there were adults like in many cases men sitting there Within earshot of what's happening , like right there .
Speaker 1This is wild . This is on camera .
Speaker 3Oh yeah , and they're just like turning their heads . You know that whole like trying to avoid it , to not get involved . Where was this ? I don't know . I think they did it somewhere .
Speaker 5If it had been Texas , they would have just shot the gun . Oh yeah .
Speaker 3But I'm just saying , like , where were we , when are we as a society , where you know again , men and women , but I'm speaking , look , men are designed to be protectors and defenders of the weaker . You know , and I don't mean that in a demeaning sense , but Scripture talks about a woman being the weaker vessel and obviously , physically , on a whole , on average , men are stronger than women .
Speaker 5You don't need to justify yourself . I saw on television yesterday they were talking about the men and women's sports , and then the weightlifting men were able to lift 400 pounds more than the women . So that shows that we are a little stronger .
Speaker 1But he says on the whole , because Rachel can beat him up . That's true . That's true .
Speaker 3But it just made me so mad , you know , because I mean , look , you guys remember that story . With that , I think he was a Marine or something , and some guy came on a subway and was talking about how he was going to kill people , yes , and then the guy you know was trying to restrain him and the guy died in the midst of it and this guy became like the villain , the hero . He ended up getting , you know , acquitted and everything but . Ray , what's going on with manhood in our day and age .
Speaker 3Yeah , they need to look to us . Yeah , yeah , look at it with that leather jacket today looking like the Fonz .
Speaker 5I got my leather jacket , yeah , and my beard Real men have beards .
Speaker 4Well , I had one . You started growing a beard . I had one .
Speaker 5You took it off , and you took it off slowly . It was like de-evolution .
Speaker 3Yeah , I , I had the big handlebar mustache . I want to bring back that mustache dude , that thing was sweet bro Mustaches are evil .
Speaker 5You were so dark , you grew up being about two days , about 10 seconds .
Speaker 3I don't want to . I'm always shaving . You guys just don't see me .
Speaker 2I'm just so fast you shave before the podcast . This is what .
Speaker 3I'm saying yeah , but yeah , men fighting and men defending Mark and men defending Mark . How can we groom our sons to be defenders of the weak ?
Speaker 2Frederick Douglass , the abolitionist in the 19th century . He said it is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men . So it starts while they're young . It starts with teaching your child to open the door for mama , for your sister .
Speaker 5Boy , that's a good thing to do . I actually punched one of my sons when he was younger because he walked in front of his mom to go into a door . Is that ?
Speaker 1why Daniel ?
Speaker 5has that dick ? Yeah , he's got that limp . It was only on his shoulder , but yeah , these things are part of etiquette and they've been forgotten .
Speaker 3And if I wore a hat , I'd tip it every time I saw a woman , but I don't , because I don't wear a hat . Yeah , well , I wink . Well , I think , you know , today , with , with the um , you know , uh , feminist culture they're , they're shooting themselves in the foot in a sense , you know . I mean think about , like this guy as an example , who's trying to help and and and , uh , you know , he gets almost imprisoned for it . I mean , who's gonna want to come to anyone's aid anymore ? Now it's like , oh , if I get involved , who knows what might happen to me , you know . And so I think , I think that with the feminist culture , you know , women are basically deactivating men who may step in and help them or protect them , because they're like , well , well , I guess that's not wanted , or I'm going to get shunned , or I'm going to , you know , a cell phone's going to be put in my face . I'm going to be recorded .
Speaker 5You've still got to do it . Be a gentleman . I remember I ran in front of a woman once to get her through a door and actually bumped her shoulder as I went past her and pushed the door open .
Speaker 2The hit her . I'm not kidding . I remember the moment , I can see the moment . Remember when that lady left behind her bag on the airplane and so you grabbed a hold of it and you ran after her .
Speaker 5No , no no , you're exaggerating . Some guys left a very important looking package on the floor just under a seat , just slightly . So I grabbed it and ran after them down the runway thing , whatever it's called into the airport and there were chatting with friends who came out to greet them , as about ten people standing around . I said I just butted in because it was so important , important looking package . And I held it and said you left this on the plane ? And the guy looked at me says ah , I think that's part of the escape style , there's a life jacket .
Speaker 5There's a life jacket underneath all that , from under the seat , and so I said , yeah , that's great Nice to meet you guys . So I don't do good work .
Speaker 3I don't do any good work , so I see a Samaritan . Seriously , Ray , that would be such a great movie title the man who always means well but always does bad Fast forward that plane crash lands in the Hudson and one person is missing his life vest .
Speaker 1Do you know what I did the other day ?
Speaker 5I was in a hurry and I came back oh , that's right , we're doing a podcast or something . And I went around to the local college , came back , I got the sunglasses off my dog and you said you're late , come on quick , quick . So I rushed back here , we did a podcast . That was an hour or so and we had lunch out at the thing and I went back home to the garage and talked with you on the phone for a few minutes while I was on , my car got out and my dog was still strapped to the bike . Tell everyone for how long ? Right over three hours . No way .
Speaker 3She's just sitting there shaking and she and I walked past her to leave and ray goes . Well , we're talking and you go . Oh , yeah , you know you go . Oh , lucy's still on the bike . I'm thinking like 10 minutes ago , like I don't know what I was thinking , he rode back on his bike Three hours .
Speaker 5Just sitting there . She's probably saying hey , as I was leaving hey .
Speaker 4Over here Help .
Speaker 5Ray , what was she doing when you Shaking ? She was really . But she's very forgiving as soon as I got her down , she was sweet . She's used to that sort of thing .
Speaker 3Yeah . Did you give her a treat ? Yes , yeah .
Speaker 1So I'll go ahead . I was just going to say John , I mentioned earlier . Jonathan Edwards did this sermon . You can find it online on Deuteronomy 15 . And he talks about how the thing that compels us is seeing the beauty of God and then desiring beauty in this world . And he says that you will desire beauty so much that it will cause you hardship . And he breaks up the two different things between Sintika and Mishpat . So Sintika is living rightly by helping . These are old Jewish words . Living rightly by helping . That is , you're walking down the street , you see somebody in need , you give them something . You see somebody in need , you give them something . Mishpat is setting things right , seeing injustices in the world and then going to work to make those wrong things right . And Jonathan Edwards would look at the scriptures and tell you that the command from the scriptures is that the Christian needs to
live out both those realities .
Speaker 1And someone once pointed out this way like one of our bigger problems too , along with , just like the last , lack of biblical masculinity , is that we have what they called a middle class spirit , and this is the thing that holds Christians on the sidelines . So you would say a middle class spirit is like I work hard for what I get the poor . They give up . God loves me and I deserve what I have . I read , I pray , I keep the law and this is the reason why things are going pretty well for me and I have a good bank account and look at the poor like what's their problem ? What do they need to do ? They need to pick themselves up by their bootstraps , they need to put themselves in better situations . So they're not dealing with this stuff . So this is a middle-class spirit .
Speaker 1But he says a Christian ought to have a poor in spirit mentality . They look at themselves and they say I know I've been saved by grace . I am bankrupt spiritually . He emptied himself for me and that poor in spirit mentality changes the way we see the poor , changes the way we see those in need . We don't say you need to pick yourself up , but rather we are thankful that God doesn't look at us and say you need to pick yourself up . Rather , god picks us up and because of that we look at others and we step in to lift them up from the life they live .
Speaker 5It's part of self-denial . At our Christmas party I was given a really nice jacket . I don't remember .
Speaker 1The one you're wearing .
Speaker 5No , no , this is not the one I'm wearing , but it's really , really warm and I just loved it . So the first day I wore it , it was a freezing day . I was on my bike and I went past this homeless lady who was wearing shorts and a T-shirt and it was freezing . I got 50 yards past and I thought I've got to give her my new jacket . So I turned around and went back to her and said Are you cold ? And she said no .
Speaker 1I said Really .
Speaker 4She said not at all .
Speaker 5I said well here heaven in and out , cardinal left .
Speaker 4Praise the Lord , I had to keep my day going .
Speaker 3Oh man , yeah , you know . I was just thinking , oscar , as you were talking about that , about the publican , you know , who wouldn't even so much as lift his gaze to heaven . God be merciful to me , a sinner , you know . And recognizing that and having the spirit of Christ that we've talked about before , you know , with his compassion , when he looked out on the multitudes whose sin he knew better than they knew , whose rebellion he understood better than they understood , and yet he saw them . He saw them in their full light , weary , scattered , shepherdless , and he was moved with compassion for them . And what did he do ? He taught them and then he fed them . He fed them .
Speaker 3And again , that is where the balance comes in for us as believers . We do the good works , we do the biblical social activity , but we always teach them . We bring the gospel , we bring light , we bring truth and we reach them in that way . Mark , maybe you could speak a little bit to . One of the things that the church can do and Christians can do is giving , getting behind these organizations that are doing the work and contributing , and we have a hard time with that ?
Speaker 2Yeah , amy Carmichael . She said you can always give without loving , but you can never love without giving . If you are indeed loving , then you are giving . If you love , you give . There's no way around it . There's no way to separate it . You cannot say that I love my brother and then I see him in need and I turn my back away . That's absolutely impossible to do so .
Speaker 2Galatians 6 says to bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ . Think about the relationships that you had inside the world . We have something in common we're both athletes . Of course we're friends . We both have this in common we're both athletes . Of course we're friends . We both have this in common we're both on the chest . Of course we're friends . The church is not like that . We will go through things together and there's going to come times where I'm going to need you to lift up my arms , and I'm going to lift up your arms when you're in need .
Speaker 2If you are not , think about your friends . This is how you take that litmus test . Look around at the people that are inside your life . If you have not gone through something with them , you can call them many things , but you can't call them a friend . You can't call them a deep , intimate friend . They're just an acquaintance , maybe they're just a coworker , but they're not your friend . Because as a friend , you go through the hilltops and the plateaus and the all the same , and you're not going anywhere .
Speaker 2There was a winning definition for the word friend back in the summer of 1994 , and it was a friend is someone who walks in the door when everybody else walks out the door . When you have somebody that leaves you when everybody else is leaving you , you have the person walking in the door saying I'm not going anywhere , there's nothing you can do to get me out of your life . That's what we need to do . That's how we bear each other's burdens . What are you going through and remember we've talked about it before Somebody's going through something . What do we send the text ? What does the email say ? Hey , if there's anything you need , let me know . What does the friend do ? The friend says here's lunch , here's the In-N-Out gift card , here's dinner . Hey , let me take this person in for you , let me help out , let me walk your dog . Your dog's staying at my house for this week . Right , let me be there for you to help out . Otherwise , you're many things . You're just not a friend .
Speaker 3Yeah , yeah , and I think those are the two things . Right , like you know , you've got money and giving like I was talking about . But sometimes , you know , we can be greedy and hoard what God's blessed us with . Other times we can give , but we do that to escape giving our time when we do have it , to give like we can . But we don't want to be inconvenienced . So our presence , us being involved , you think of these workers that are part of some of these ministries that have been laboring for years . I mean , we've all had it up evangelism . We know how tiresome it can become , discouraging . But people involved in like the sex trafficking ministries or the abortion ministries , and they feel alone To have another brother , sister come alongside them , lift up their arms , join them in the work .
Speaker 5Give them money .
Speaker 3Yeah , give them money too . I mean all of that . It goes such a long way . And finally , I think we need to hit on prayer , the value of prayer . Again , I was sharing this with someone the other day Our verbiage gives us away . I guess all I can do is pray . You think about that , you rephrase that . I guess all I can do is talk to the omniscient , omnipotent , omnipresent , sovereign .
Speaker 3God of the universe who holds every molecule in his control and who can move mountains and crack oceans and do
anything he wants on behalf of his children , whom he loves . I guess all I can do is talk to him , who tells me to ask and I shall receive Is that the amplified version ? That's the Emil Zwayne Arab version . But it's true , right , like we have to think about that . And , ray , do you like to pray ? No , I hate praying but , you do it why .
Speaker 5Because Jesus prayed and prayer is what moves the hand of God . I got up each night for most nights for 38 years to pray and when I turned 70 , I kept falling asleep . It happened so many times I just stopped . So now I pray without ceasing . And it's a really , really hard thing to do to pray without ceasing , because you forget Other things , sort of crowd in . But yeah , prayer is the lifeline to God . It's the oxygen that motivates us as Christians . You still have the prayer list on your ceiling . I had one , but now it's on my iPad .
Speaker 3It was on the ceiling . That's your prayer list . Yeah , and I'll read this poem again that I've read before Traveling on my Knees . Last night I took a journey to a land across the seas . I did not go by ship or plane , I traveled on my knees . I saw so many people there in bondage to their sin , and Jesus told me I should go , that there were souls to win . But I said , jesus , I can't go to lands across the seas . He answered quickly yes , you can , by traveling on your knees . He said you pray , I'll meet the need . You call and I will hear . It's up to you to be concerned for lost souls far and near . And so I did Knelt in prayer , gave up . That's by Sandra Goodwin . What a good reminder of what we can do . And , oscar , I love that phrase . I gave up some hours of ease . When we think of how much time we really do have and what we don't do with it , it's convicting , isn't it ?
Speaker 1Absolutely is . And I read recently in preparing for this someone said do you give more to the poor than you spend on entertainment ? And I was like oh man , that one just got me right in the gut .
Speaker 1And same thing with our time as well . And some people listen , some people have money to spare and some people don't have money to spare . But they have time to spare , amen . And they ought to spend that time and just before . Here's the thing as we talk about giving to the needy , we can be motivated by our guilt . We can give just enough to relieve us of our guilt , but we ought to give from a place of receiving something great .
Speaker 1And that reminds me of Edmund Clowney's sermon on the Good Samaritan . He points out , like Jesus , he could have started by saying hey , imagine a Jew on a horse riding that horse down the street and they see a Samaritan in the middle of the ground . What would he do ? And everyone would have responded he would have trampled him over . He would have told him to move aside . Of course , naturally right , that's what we ought to do . But Jesus flips that narrative on its head . He says imagine you on the ground and the good Samaritan comes by . What would you want ? Of course I'd want him to help . I'd want Samaritan , who stepped down and lifted us up . And when we see that we have been helped by the capital G great Samaritan then we move forward in life as good Samaritans , as an overflow of recognizing that we were poor in spirit in need of grace .
Speaker 3That's beautiful . It's all perspective , isn't it ?
Speaker 5And speaking of kindness , Ken Hammer's . Here he's been bothering me for about 20 minutes . He's sending FaceTime , all sorts of stuff .
Speaker 3Oh , there it is . My phone's been blown up too , yeah . Well , friends , let me wrap up with this . Look , I think we all need to reevaluate two things that we often say I can't afford it and I don't have time . May we reevaluate those and really ask ourselves is that true when it comes to standing up for things ? We were talking specifically about sex trafficking , but this applies to so many more things . So there you have it , friends . We hope you've been encouraged . Remember to check out the Musk Million Dollar Bill track . Living Waters Among the Outer Study Bible Living Waters .
Speaker 4TV Living Waters Podcast YouTube channel all at livingwaterscom .
Speaker 3And don't forget to share this and send us your thoughts at podcastlivingwaterscom .
Speaker 4Thank you for joining us , friends . We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters .
Speaker 3Podcast where Ken Ham , soon as always , will have no idea what he's doing , so you're feeling better .
Speaker 5Yes ,