I'm definitely for the death penalty , but I'm against it . And let me tell you why I'm of two minds . Deuteronomy 17 , 6, . Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses . He shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness . And this is why I'm of two minds . You can see in Scripture where there were a lot of false witnesses , like you've got Jezebel , she got false witnesses to testify against Naboth and had him killed . And Acts 16 , verse 13 . Acts 6 , verse 13 . Stephen false witnesses testifying against him . He was put to death .
Speaker 2And with .
Speaker 1Jesus . False witnesses Matthew 26 , 59 to 60 . Came and he was put to death . And that's my concern . I believe in the death penalty , but a lot of people have been put to death who were innocent . I took the time to go to Wikipedia and it just about made me cry , so many people have been put to death and afterwards someone came forward and said I did it . He didn't do it . That has happened and you can imagine being on death row and saying I'm innocent . They say , everybody says that . Everybody says that . Being on death row , so I'm innocent . They say , everybody says that , everybody says that .
Speaker 1And it'd be so easy nowadays to set someone up as a scapegoat . You want someone murdered , so you set someone up , you drug them , you put them by the body , you put fingerprints on the gun , you go to his computer , you hack into it and search how to kill somebody , and so when he wakes up , all the evidence is against him . And then you can even bribe the jury , say there's money for you or we're going to kill your kids . And this sort of thing happens nowadays . So that's why , if there's overwhelming evidence , I'm for the death sentence . I mean absolutely overwhelming evidence . We've got a case in New York at the moment where this guy was filmed shooting someone , yeah , and you see him getting away and then you see him having the gun made and you see his manifesto saying he's going to kill this guy , right , and so there's overwhelming evidence . But on the other cases I'm just hesitant .
Speaker 3Oh , man , you guys , this is why I love our conversations
. It's been a while , friends , but it's back by popular demand . Whose demand Mine and I'm popular . Welcome to the Try Not To Laugh At Dad Jokes segment , where we try not to laugh at dad jokes . You guys , ready , if you're telling them it's not going to be a problem ? Exactly , let's see , here we go . I'm already not laughing . No , it's not funny . How much does a roof cost ? Nothing , it's on the house .
Speaker 2My wife traumatically ripped the covers off me last night , but I will recover . That's supposed to laugh .
Speaker 3That was funny , my wife Traumatically ripped the covers off me Last night , but I will recover . Who was the builder Of King Arthur's Round table ? Circumference .
Speaker 2I don't get that one .
Speaker 3Circumference .
Speaker 2Round table . I'll explain them that one . I got it .
Speaker 1In circumference Round table . I'll explain them to you , matt .
Speaker 3I have a Polish friend who's a sound technician and a Czech one too , and a Czech one too . I got it . I told my wife she was drawing her eyebrows too high .
Speaker 2She looked surprised , that's good .
Speaker 3I think it's the delivery that's not doing it for me . Okay , that's enough .
Speaker 4Oh , that's it .
Speaker 2Oh , you want more ? Okay , I got more . You didn't get Oscar to laugh at all . Oscar , you need to be a father longer I laughed at you guys .
Speaker 4Here we go . I'm going to do my best to laugh .
Speaker 3I'm really going to try not to laugh . Me too , a weasel .
Speaker 2That was the best one .
Speaker 3Okay , no , seriously , here it goes . A weasel walks into a bar . The bartender says what can I get you Pop , goes the weasel , all right .
Speaker 2There we go . That was good . Was that good ? Okay ? Oscar smiled , by the way , yeah .
Speaker 3Okay , okay , by the way , yeah , okay . I stayed up all night trying to figure out where the sun was , and then it dawned on me . Okay , all right , a couple more . Here goes . Come on , oscar .
Speaker 1I'm doing my best Good . That's why I'm happy here we go .
Speaker 3I accidentally drank invisible ink . I'm now in the Good . That's why I'm happy . Here we go . I accidentally drank invisible ink . I'm now in the hospital waiting to be seen . All right , last one , here it goes . I've decided I want a pet termite . I'm going to call him Clint Eatswood . Stop it Wheezy . I'm gonna call him Clint Eatswood , Stop it Wheezy . I can't stop .
Speaker 1Welcome to the Easily Amused Podcast .
Speaker 3Oh , that was so much fun , you guys . I'm crying Today . Friends , ray Comfort is in another man's suit . Oh yeah , you asked if you gave me another man's suit .
Speaker 4Yeah , oh yeah , nice , it says suit or soup .
Speaker 1Nice . Your asker gave me another one . It's jackets .
Speaker 3Sports coat , ray . I love it . Tell me the theory behind the elbow pads . I've always tried to figure that out . Is it just reinforced ?
Speaker 1So if you fall down on sort of concrete or something .
Speaker 4Which you often do .
Speaker 1Regularly like five times in a row .
Speaker 3It doesn't hurt your elbow Ray . You destroy concrete . Concrete has no effect on your elbows .
Speaker 2No , actually no . During the
Great Depression , when it was hard to find a job , people would dress up as well as they possibly could and they would have a sports coat and they would go out and they would actually work inside their sports coat and they would mess it .
Speaker 3I just made that all up I'm thinking wow , Mark , you guys were looking at me like I was intelligent , Like where did you find that trivia ?
Speaker 1That's what that feels like .
Speaker 4The historian .
Speaker 3So , Ray , do you feel like a double portion of Oscar's anointing ?
Speaker 1Yeah , I feel more intelligent . I feel as though I've just got to read three books a day .
Speaker 3Yeah , it just came upon me .
Speaker 4Looks good on you , thank you . Can we talk about what happened earlier , when you heard yourself ?
Speaker 1Oh yeah , please do , because it was great to have truth .
Speaker 4We filmed a happy birthday message on Mark's phone and Mark was playing it back to listen and Easy opens the message with his tried and true hello friends , hello friends , friends .
Speaker 2But , Easy .
Speaker 4doesn't realize what he's listening to , he goes oh , what is that ?
Speaker 1We go . That's you . You mentioned something about a sick cat .
Speaker 3I thought someone was killing a cat . It does sound a bit like you .
Speaker 4You're right , that's exactly what it sounds like 340 episodes it is crazy , isn't it , when you hear back your own voice .
Speaker 3I mean , we've been doing stuff like this for years , but was that weird for you guys the first time you heard your own voice back ?
Speaker 1Yeah , I heard myself sing . It was terrible .
Speaker 3I was 13 . I haven't sung since . You had recorders back then . Yes , yeah , we had voices back then and wore shoes .
Speaker 1We'd heard of the Beatles .
Speaker 4No , we hadn't my ears must have confidence filters , though , because when I sing , it sounds incredible and then I hear it recorded and I'm like that didn't work .
Speaker 1That's what it is .
Speaker 2Easy you hear yourself sing and yet you still sing .
Speaker 1Yes , I do . I love my voice . Isn't that beautiful ?
Speaker 3No , no , I figured , Guys , I'm pumped . Today I got to go on a podcast with Shannon Breen , a Fox News anchor .
Speaker 1And how did that go ? It was great .
Speaker 3She's a believer loves the Lord . And she's very sharp , isn't she Very sharp , you know , when someone's been doing something for a long time . But she was good and gave me like 20 minutes to talk about the book .
Speaker 1Did she remember to push the record button ?
Speaker 3No , she forgot . Can you imagine ?
Speaker 215 minutes more than everybody else , truth be told , because she fell asleep .
Speaker 3It's called Living the Bream . It's a play on with her last name , living the Bream , but she's a real big Fox News anchor on the main channel . What does she ?
Speaker 2weigh . We've been a big fan of hers for a long time .
Speaker 3Like 600 feet , but it was great Opportunity to talk about Fight Like a man . It was a real blessing .
Speaker 1Your book .
Speaker 3Yeah , my book Fight Like a man . You guys know how many people come up to me and say stuff like whatever Fight . Like Roseanne , you guys have destroyed my book title .
Speaker 2Fight Like Jackie Chan and then Ken Ham signs my book .
Speaker 3I was at the ARC and I spoke at the men's conference . He's signing my book for people . That's funny . He's so rude . Yeah , yeah , all right , friends , does that sound like a cat ?
Speaker 1dying , no Dying yes .
Speaker 3Yeah , all right , friends , a cool , classy comment comes in the form of a postcard . Look at this , ray . Can you recognize what this is ?
Speaker 1Ray , it's a really buff-looking chicken .
Speaker 3It's a chicken made out of eggshells right , oscar , I saw that it's cool .
Speaker 3Yeah , so this is from the Netherlands , believe it or not ? From the Netherlands . Thank you so much , ray , for everything Spreading the gospel , all those gospel tracts and books , the Living Waters podcast and TV , etc . Etc . So thankful that God let me find Living Waters on the internet . I saw this card and I immediately thought of you and your chickens . God bless you and Easy , mark and Oscar and all the others praying for you . Daily Greetings from the Netherlands . Nadi or Nadia , 2 Peter , 3 , 18 . Thank you , ray , you got a ticket Sorry .
Speaker 1I've got a cool clear email to read .
Speaker 1Oh , yes , yes it's from Connor Fitzgerald and I found this very encouraging . He says about two years ago I ordered a bundle of tracks from your store . You were all thoughtful enough to include a free baseball cap with my purchase . That's a Living Waters hat . I've been putting them in for about four years . When I do orders which I do usually on Saturday mornings , when I see someone's ordered a lot of tracks , my heart goes out . I'm like this is a person who is spending their own money on gospel tracks for other people and I want to encourage them . So I drop in a hat . So he says he found a hat .
Speaker 1I didn't always wear a hat at that time , but I decided to wear it one day , a few days after you guys sent it to me . Later that day at work , during a windstorm , a freak accident happened . I was walking past a heavy steel gate and out of nowhere , nowhere , the wind blew and it opened and hit me in the back , sending me flying six feet face into a steel light post . I ended up with a very mild concussion and some swelling on my forehead , but because I was wearing the Living Waters hat , the bill of the hat folded down and covered my forehead . When I examined the light post the next day , I saw that the hat had scraped off part of the paint . If I hadn't been wearing the hat , it would have split my head open and I probably would have needed surgery Only because of your guy's free hat . I have no serious lasting damage . I'm very thankful .
Speaker 3No way Isn't that crazy . I think if you touched the hat , you gave him your curse Ray . That's what it should be thinking here .
Speaker 1You took a positive and put it into a negative . The poor guy Think of all the other people that have died and haven't thanked me for the hat All right , all because hats won't sell , we're giving them away , and now this guy's alive . No , no , these are for sale , but we give them away to people who order lots of tracks .
Speaker 3By the way . What a cool story , though , seriously .
Speaker 4For those who listen to the podcast . If you spend $100 or more on tracks , ray will send you a Living .
Speaker 1Waters toupee .
Speaker 4His own .
Speaker 1Now that's going to start a rumor . Pull it real hard , mark .
Speaker 3It's real , like Trump . Yes , it's real . It's my hair . Thank you so much for writing in , connor , you said right . Yes , seriously , though , praise God , that's great , and just so you know , friends , we do have a staff here . We don't have to have our CEO packing orders .
Speaker 3He does it because he loves his wife and she's our head order packer here and he comes and helps her . That's her official title head order packer . Yeah , no , she , she oversees our whole shipping department . So sue , super sue , yep , all right friends . Now a radically remarkable resource this podcast is the tract sample pack . It's still selling guys Full of all the tracts we carry . It's very extraordinary .
Speaker 1Let me describe it to you . It's a pack that's full of tracts .
Speaker 3It's a box Ray's idea , a box . We used to put them in these little plastic things . Now it's a cool looking box .
Speaker 1We made a mistake with that when it first came out . We offered them for about $5 . We started selling thousands and we couldn't figure out why Mark would actually take them home , because we couldn't keep up with people wanting them . Then we realized people were buying them to give out tracks , not to see samples , but just to give out tracks , because they were cheap and came in a nice box .
Speaker 3Yeah , yeah . Well , this will give you a personal glimpse at all the tracks we carry . You can handle them , read them and throw them at people . If you can handle them , throw them at people . We still need a Frisbee track , ray , a boomerang track . Yeah , I threw it , but it didn't come back .
Speaker 1The nothing at the end .
Speaker 3And over again .
Speaker 1I did look into a boomerang track . Do it again . Gotta find one , yeah , because we get something made with scripture on it . Can you watch around ?
Speaker 3Oh , did you get a new watch , ray ?
Speaker 1Yes , After you gave your watch away .
Speaker 3Yes , same one , yeah , of course . Ooh , look at that , look at that Fancy . 13 bucks now . No , it's gone up a little Double digits . Yeah , how much .
Speaker 1Ray , I think about 14 . Unbelievable .
Speaker 3It's already scratched .
Speaker 1Just note You're a big time . You're a big time , it is .
Speaker 3So don't forget it , friends , a track sample pack , the Living Waters mug , from which you can take a chug and I'll give you a hug , don't forget that . And it's a study Bible from which you're liable to find a revival , livingwaterstv and LivingWaterscom that's where you'll find it all . And Oscar , is he just minced meat ? No , no , no , no . All that living water is , yeah , my rocker . See , I put podcast YouTube channel at the end , so it threw me off .
Speaker 2But I'll try to get back on my game . I'm sorry , oscar , it's okay , I'll just leave . Now Another song oh yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 3Don't forget the podcast YouTube channel . It's exploding . Thousands upon thousands of subscribers . Be one of them . All right friends Today . Oh boy , how to switch from all that ? We should have an apology after the introduction yeah for the three of you still listening , sorry , friends . What does the Bible say
about the death penalty ? It's going to be interesting today to see where we all land , because , again , we don't really talk about these things beforehand . So we'll see . I think we all agree , except for maybe Oscar . We'll see .
Speaker 2Oscar , why do you not like justice ? I love justice or mercy . I love mercy . The court system I love .
Speaker 4Why are you ?
Speaker 2against judges ? Yeah , I love mercy , the court system I love . Why are you against judges ?
Speaker 4Yeah , oscar yeah the court system .
Speaker 3Yeah , Oscar . Hey , look , this is a topic that has created a lot of division .
Speaker 1I don't know .
Speaker 3Totally . What does that mean ? Oh , I'm not sure what . Who am I ?
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 3I disagree with myself .
Speaker 4That was the best joke you've made so far .
Speaker 3I know it's so cute , but it really has . And it's interesting . When you look at the spectrum right , you'll see so many people who are for death on one hand and obviously you guys know I'm talking about abortion but so against death when it comes to the death penalty . I mean , the Catholic Church is a case in point in that regard . Liberals are a case in point in this regard . Again , I don't want to just say everyone who doesn't believe in the death penalty is liberal or theologically off , but you do see that , and I would say , especially as it relates to liberals , it blows my mind , ray , don't you think like they're so against , you know , depriving women to murder their babies , but they're for limiting that .
Speaker 1They're violently against the death penalty . They'll kill you if you disagree with them . But yeah , for abortion with Pharisaic zeal , just got to have that abortion and it's such wickedness . And when it comes to the death sentence , they're against it with just as much violence .
Speaker 3Yeah , mark , you've done so much interviewing about the subject of abortion . I'm curious have you ever like kind of you know , like with Ray with 180 , it started out talking about the Holocaust and then he just transitioned to ask about abortion ? Have you ever asked someone , well , what do you think of the death penalty while asking about abortion ?
Speaker 2No , but I've been asked that , have you ? Yeah , so somebody will say you are against abortion , yeah , the murdering of innocent little pre-born babies . Well , how do you feel about the death penalty ? Or they just assume that I am for the death penalty and I say well , I don't think that they don't go hand in hand . I think it's apples and oranges and I think we could have a conversation if you're up to it . But usually when that question comes along from the skeptic , they're not interested in the conversation or the reasoning that I have for being for the death penalty .
Speaker 3Capital punishment Interesting , oscar , don't you think this is related ? But a bit off topic . But isn't it interesting when we're witnessing or having a conversation with someone about truth ? They ask questions but they really don't care about the answer . They're just trying to set you up , yeah , like a gotcha moment .
Speaker 4That's sort of related but unrelated . That's one of the things that I go to when somebody asks me about . You know , if God is good , why is there suffering in the world ? It's like , are you asking as an atheist , trying to pin me in some chess match ? Are you asking as someone who has suffered and is asking from a place of suffering ? But to your point , especially when it comes to the conversation about abortion , they try to use it as a chess play , a chess tool , and so often people are practiced in memorizing rhetoric but not thinking critically . And that's exactly what we experience out on the street .
Speaker 1Yeah , Good point . Jesus had the Pharisees kept trying to set him up . Good master , we know you always speak the truth . What do you think about this ? But he knowing their hypocrisy . So yeah , people come up and say you're a good Christian . Can you tell me this ? You know you're being set up .
Speaker 3Yeah , yeah , and I loved how Jesus would always come back with a question . It loved how Jesus would always come back with a question .
Speaker 1It was rare that he didn't ask a question in response .
Speaker 3Tell me about John the Baptist . They couldn't say anything . So yeah , guys , I don't know , can of worms .
Speaker 1Pandora's box . I don't know what we're opening here . I think we're opening one , but I think we're all level-headed when it comes to this issue . What , what did you say ? I'm level-headed , what ?
Speaker 4That means I've got a flat head . Let me , because you positioned rightfully that there's sort of a conservative , liberal position in regards to the death penalty . But let me take it in-house a little bit and just recognize that Christians are . This is a tertiary issue , a secondary issue that Christians are divided , unless you're the person dying , unless you're the person dying .
Speaker 2You are very clearly on one side .
Speaker 4But throughout church history , pre-liberalism , augustine had argued against the death penalty . That doesn't mean that we should be for or against it . The only point that I'm making here is that we , as Christians , can have charity towards other Christians who are reading the scriptures , thinking critically and wanting to come to a biblical conclusion , whose convictions are falling on a different side of the aisle hill .
Speaker 4This is an area in which we need to think charitably about other Christians . You are right . There's liberals that have a backwards view of arguing against the death penalty , but that shouldn't take away from meaningful Christians who are reading the Bibles and struggling to understand the death penalty .
Speaker 3You guys , you know there are times when I sit back and I envision how beautiful it would be If things are as they should be . So , in other words , like my ideal in life , for example , is anyone who corrects me , anyone who approaches me , to point something out in my life ? I want to , just , I want to be just so receptive and open and like please tell me more . We're always , just immediately our defenses go up right At the same time when it comes to discussing things that we disagree over . My dream would be like if we were living in a perfect realm where , man , we could just do it with grace , like there isn't personal offense , and I've always tried to pin that down .
Speaker 3Why do we get so worked up ? Look , sometimes I think it's because we are passionate about the issue . We really care about it . I think , more often than not , it's our pride . We just don't want to look wrong or we just like this and this is what we want , but , man , to be able to really just say okay , let me hear you out Now . I want to do that today because , oscar , I know before we started , you were saying that you're not sure where you'd land on this , and so I'm open to hear . I definitely land on the side personally of that . It is right
and good and biblical , but I want to hear that out .
Speaker 1Where do you guys stand ? Yeah , I'm definitely for the death penalty , but I'm against it . And let me tell you why I'm of two minds . Deuteronomy 17 , 6, . Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses . He shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness , and this is why I'm of two minds . You can see in scripture where there were a lot of false witnesses , like you've got Jezebel , she got false witnesses to testify against Naboth and had him killed . And Acts 16 , verse 13, . Acts 6 , verse 13 , stephen false witnesses testifying against him . He was put to death , good point .
Speaker 1And with Jesus false witnesses Matthew 26 , 59 to 60 , came and he was put to death , and that's my concern . I believe in the death penalty , but a lot of people have been put to death who were innocent . I took the time to go to Wikipedia and it just about made me cry , so many people have been put to death and afterwards someone came forward and said I Did it . Yep , he didn't do it , I just happened and and you can imagine being on death row .
Speaker 1Some innocent , they say everybody says that , everybody says that , and it ? It'd be so easy nowadays to set someone up as a Scapegoat . You want to someone murdered . So you set someone up , you drug him , you put him by the body , you put fingerprints on the gun , you go to his computer , you hack into it and search how to kill somebody . And so when he wakes up , all the evidence is against him . And then you can even bribe the jury , say there's money for you or we're going to kill your kids . And this sort of thing happens nowadays . So that's why , if there's overwhelming evidence , I'm for the death sentence . I mean absolutely overwhelming evidence . We've got a case in New York at the moment where this guy was filmed shooting someone and you see him getting away and then you see him having the gun made and you see his manifesto saying he's going to kill this guy . And so there's overwhelming evidence . But on the other cases I'm just hesitant .
Speaker 3Oh , man , you guys this is why I love our conversations we're able to bring out things that we could look at from a different angle . I mean , that's such a valid point , right , and Mark , we're often glib with stuff like this or flippant or just kind of nonchalant about it . We are talking about people's lives and I think , as Christians , we have to be careful to not just you know . Oh yeah , I think this , I think that we need to think through this stuff .
Speaker 2Absolutely . In a 2000 interview , john Piper was asked the question about capital punishment , where he stands , and his response was I am for capital punishment in principle , but how it works out in practice is a totally different issue . Right ? And Ray gave really great examples of what that looks like , and I think that the Deuteronomy 17 is a very good example .
Speaker 2Now here's the thing there's not always two witnesses , you know , I mean , who's going to go murder someone and want there to be witnesses , so they murder more people and there's no eyewitnesses . How do you deal with that ? Well , we have to trust in a sovereign God that they're going to get it in the end . Right ? We need to be careful with that . Genesis 9-6 , whoever sheds the blood of man by man , shall his blood be shed for . God made man in his own image , right ? You don't vandalize a painting and think the artist is not going to get upset about it , right ? So the first thing we have to think through is that these are real people , created in the image of God , and we need to be very careful . First and foremost , who do we vote for ? Who is in office ? I think that what the Tesla guy , elon Musk . He's uncovering supposedly uncovering all this bad spending with Doge , this whole Doge thing , and where's this money going ? And he's supposedly uncovering all of this misspending . And now people my understanding people are coming up against him and I'm like but what is he doing wrong ? He's trying to do that which is right , whether it's right or wrong . He's trying to do that which is right , and now he's like a villain , right ?
Speaker 2I think that we need to be careful who we vote for , because the people that are put in office are ultimately either a blessing from God or it is justice from God for man , for man rebelling against God , right ? So now read another scripture I mean I know you guys are going to read a few of these right Numbers 35-33 , you should not pollute the land , right ? Blood pollutes the land . No atonement can be made except by the blood of the one who shed it . You know , it's interesting that God is saying that . The only , it seems to me , the only justice that can take place is for that person's blood to be shed .
Speaker 2And I've heard it worded like this because I care about you , if somebody were to come inside of our studio right now with a gun , I'd push easy in the way the most loving thing I can do for you guys is to try to take him out . Right , john 15 , 13, . There's no greater love than this , than one to lay down his life for his friends . So if I were to somehow take him out now , obviously , what is the best way to be able to take it out ? I don't want to kill someone . Nobody wants to kill anyone . Nobody wants that . But the most loving thing that you can do for a society is to protect a society against an individual . It's like , if you're going to err on the side of grace , err on the side of grace towards the masses , not towards the individual . Be gracious to the individual . Well , what about the grace towards the other people that are going to be affected by this ? Yeah , oh , absolutely so . I mean , I have lots of quotes and scriptures .
Speaker 3I definitely want you to jump back in on all those . Let me just say this what's significant about Genesis 9-6, ? Whoever sheds man's blood by man , his blood shall be shed , for he is an image of God , as he made man Mark . As you just read , the significance , I think , of this verse , and to me what's convincing , as it relates to the death penalty , is that this is pre-law , because sometimes , you know , we'll cite verses that are within the law and we understand that the ceremonial , the civil , the sacrificial systems of the law .
Speaker 3Those don't apply to us anymore . But this is pre-law , and I think it's a statement made by God about the significance of His image being imprinted on others . And then , oscar , I want you to jump in on this , but here's another passage I think that in the New Testament makes me think okay , well , this aligns with that . Romans 13 , 1-4, .
Speaker 3Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities , for there is no authority except from God . The authorities that exist are appointed by God . Therefore , whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God , and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves , for rulers are not a terror to good works , but to evil . Do you want to be unafraid of the authority ? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same , for he is God's minister to you for good . But if you do evil , be afraid , for he does not bear the sword in vain , for he is God's minister and avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil . So those two passages for me are the strongest texts in Scripture to say look , this is what God said pre-law . And then this is what the New Testament says about the governing authorities that don't bear the sore and pain and they execute wrath , vengeance from God on evildoers . So , oscar , I'd love to hear your thoughts and your perspective on this whole thing . Yeah , thanks .
Speaker 4Let me start by saying what I said before we hit record , which is I'm really eager . What I said before we hit record , which is I'm really eager to sit at this table with you guys . As I was kind of reading through my notes last night , I was getting excited to listen to you guys because I highly respect you guys . I have so much to learn . I'm the youngest not only by age but by salvation Christian in the room , and so I have so much to learn and the blessing of being able to just sit and listen to your guys's perspective is super valuable to me . On top of that , um , what I mentioned earlier is this is something that I've thought a lot about over the years . I've read about and I do sit in conflict . I don't some some days I'm for , some days I'm against . And just as an example two of like the heroes of the faith for me that if you listen to the podcast , you've heard me quote over and over again Augustine and CS Lewis , augustine against CS Lewis , for . And so , just like , even as I read , even as I look at my library , there's a conflict there . So , truly , I approach this with humility . In my notes I have it categorized as like thoughts against capital punishment and thoughts for capital punishment and thoughts for capital punishment , and both are equal and both often contradict one another . Just kind of letting you into my perspective , or at least the way I'm approaching this conversation . So there's three areas . Oh , one other thing . There's actually a really great . You mentioned the charitableness and the willingness to come to the conversation . There's actually a really great dialogue between Bob Thune and Matthew Arbo online . Matthew Arbo wrote an article against capital punishment , bob Thune responded , and then they respond back and forth and , man aside , from where you stand , the way they honored one another , treated each other with respect and dignity and were speaking generously towards the other person is commendable , and so I just think it's a not only is the great way to reflect on this conversation , but it's also a great example on how to lovingly disagree and they challenge each other , but in a way that you feel like is almost like hey , double down here , what do you mean by that ? And so , just as a heads up .
Speaker 4So anyways , there's sort of three different ways that you can look at a hesitation towards capital punishment . One is philosophical in nature , and this is I'm borrowing from Augustine . He argues that punishment is not about . He argues that punishment is not about . He mentions that punishment is about truth telling and transformation , not just retribution . And so he says that execution fails as a tool to teach . The dead can't repent ,
he would argue . And again , this is where it's not just a liberal argument , it's a great question that Augustine asks .
Speaker 4He thinks it's paradoxical that killing somebody could affirm the value of life . Now , I'm going to contradict myself later because CS Lewis goes against that . But he would say that killing someone he says basically to look and say to commit murder , to kill , is to mar the image of God . We are image bearers of God and so what makes it wrong to kill a person , not a pig , is that a person bears the image of God . You are marring an image of the almighty , and so he says , in order to cause justice , we have to again mar the image of another image bearer of God . And he is struggling with that right Practical concerns .
Speaker 4This is actually something you just brought up , ray , and I love that you did , and this is something that both sides , like even those who are for capital punishment , like you just did , recognize . We live in a flawed justice system , and because we live in a flawed justice system . There's practical concerns tax paying . In California it's estimated that we pay about $137 million for people on death row , versus life sentences is only 11.5 million a year . I don't know how that math works out , but apparently it's cheaper to keep them alive .
Speaker 1Well , it takes us a bullet . How much does a bullet cost ?
Speaker 4Yeah , there's a lot of legal ramifications and things of that nature . I don't know the economics behind it , but that's what it says . So and you brought up this point , since 1973 , at least 200 people who were sentenced to death in the US has been exonerated . A 2014 study showed that 4.1% of death row inmates are actually innocent , which is wild . It kind of goes to that saying of like I'd rather let a hundred guilty men live than one innocent men die . 4.1% is nothing to balk at . There's a disproportionate application . 50% of death row inmates are people of color . Most executions are people who committed crimes against white victims despite being black . 140 people have been exonerated . I already said that Nearly all death row inmates couldn't afford private legal defense . Again , this goes to the idea that maybe there's quite a bit of them there that are actually innocent . 71% of wrongful convictions involved eyewitnesses who are misidentifying somebody or included false confessions . So the conclusion to Ray's point is we all agree this is a flawed system .
Speaker 3Let me jump in , oscar , and then I want you to talk about the positive in a little bit . But , mark , I'd like your thoughts on this because I think one of the things we need to be careful about is sentimentality . Right , like that aspect of I don't like it , or it just doesn't feel right to me , because that's often the philosophy behind even abortion , right , don't you hear people say stuff like that , like you know , but my life , my future , how , why should I ? This child's going to live in poverty , right ? Stuff like that we have to be careful of . That is what I'm saying . Yeah , of course , and to be cautious , but what do you think of the aspect of , like what Augustine is saying in terms of you know , this is something that you know . What was it I was trying to ?
Speaker 4remember the point Death is marring the image of God , and so then , capital punishment is again marring the image of God .
Speaker 3Yeah , the whole issue of this is marring the image of God and , looking at it from like , we don't do this to people , but it's almost like saying , hey , we don't put animals , we don't put humans in cages , that's for animals , is my thought . Do you think there's something deeper behind it we need to think about in this regard ?
Speaker 2Yeah , let me say this it's my understanding that Augustine was not entirely against the death penalty .
Speaker 2He thought that there could possibly be a better way , and I think that he falls more into the category of what Ray is saying , that we need to be careful . Right , mercy triumphs over judgment , but judgment still needs to be carried out right . And so I do have a quote from Augustine here in his book the City of God , book 1 , chapter 21 , where he says it is in no way contrary to the commandment Thou shalt not kill to wage war at God's bidding or for the representatives of public authority to put criminals to death according to the law . And then he gives a couple examples , right , so , for example , you have to go commit war at God's bidding , and he gives other examples . But then he gets into talking about justice go commit war at God's bidding , and he gives other examples , but then he gets into talking about justice . So I do believe that you're onto something here , that you're right , and I think that he's agreeing with us . I think he goes a little step further , though .
Speaker 4Yeah , he's complicated .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , but I don't think that we can blanketly say like put them to death , and I don't think any of us would say that unless it is absolutely clear-cut .
Speaker 3So Mark , do you ?
Speaker 2because I didn't ask for your position . You stand kind of with Ray on that in terms of like , yes , but we have to be really careful , yeah , we need to be very , very careful , right . And so I mean , I did say earlier that I'm for the death penalty because it's good for a society to remove plagues , right . And so I would say , though this person obviously is an image bearer that they are , there's a danger attached to that . You think of , like in Saudi Arabia , right , if you get caught stealing , there's some places where they'll cut off your hand , and then what does that do ? That lowers the stealing capacities , and there's actual examples where people have left iPads and money on cars and stuff and they should watch . People are just going to walk on by because they know this is not theirs . When you lower the bar and you say , hey , anything can happen , because man is innately evil and their hearts are deceitful and desperately wicked , above all things , you give them a very long leash and they're going to do whatever they are kind of programmed to be able to do .
Speaker 2I really enjoy this scripture from James that's dealing with the New Testament a little bit . Some people can argue well , that's all Old Testament , but James 2.13 , which EZ obviously has memorized because he has a third of the New Testament books memorized but it says for judgment is without mercy to one who has shown mercy . But mercy triumphs over judgment . Right Judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy . And if God has established the rulers , the leaders , the judges , a judicial system , that God puts kings into place and stuff like things of that nature , I think , because of where we're at within our judicial system , that it would make sense .
Speaker 2John Calvin , he said the execution of the law is not cruelty but mercy to the community . And that's what I'm talking about , that there is a mercy and a grace to the community by getting rid of that person who is a scar to that community . You can resort to devil's advocate , then just put them away , remove them from a society . Well , I don't think that once again lines up with what we're seeing here inside the New Testament . Sproul , he said capital punishment is not simply a matter of retribution , it is a matter of honoring the sanctity of life , that we are honoring the beauty of life by removing lives that are trying to destroy innocent human lives .
Speaker 4Yeah , similar to CS Lewis's argument .
Speaker 3Yeah , j Warner Wallace , I think , really really put it well . He said capital punishment isn't about revenge , it's about affirming the value of the victim , and there is that aspect of it as well . Like a lot of times when people aren't put to death , on the flip side , where justice isn't done , they end up getting paroled , they end up getting released when they took someone's life and then they do it again . We never talk about that aspect of it , those that are released and go out and do it again . And so there's you know there's a lot to it . Ray , you went out on the streets and asked people about this actually specifically , yeah , and I was very , very surprised .
Speaker 1We're not surprised , but so many young people are against the death penalty like grit gritted teeth against it until I asked them pro choice what's that ?
Speaker 1yeah , they're pro-choice , the same . But when I asked them this question if your mother was um , raped viciously and stabbed to death , do you think the murderer should be put to death ? And they immediately said yes . And I said that shows the value you put on your mother's life , but you have no value for the life of the person that's viciously murdered .
Speaker 1As you were saying about people reoccurring crimes , there's a man in California jail . He's very happy because there's no death sentence in California . He's the most convicted man in US history , prolific serial killer . His name is Samuel Little . He's confessed to 93 murders and the FBI crime analysis believe all his confessions are credible . Law enforcement has been able to verify 50 of those confessions , many more pending final confirmation . Little says he strangled 93 victims between 1970 and 2005 . He killed 93 . This is where the death sentence works . If you put a man to death because he strangled one woman , he's not going to do it again . And he's done it again and again 93 people murdered because California doesn't have any guts to stand up for that , which is right .
Speaker 1No value in the lives of these people .
Speaker 3Right . As Spurgeon said , a community that fosters mercy without justice encourages sin , and I think that's so true . It's the aspect of showing like , hey , this is serious , you've taken someone's life . And again , if I put aside sentimentality , if I put aside what I may feel like okay as a Christian , I think Christians should be going to those on death row and preaching the gospel to them . You know that they get saved and get right with God , but that doesn't mean that they're .
Speaker 1That's exactly what we do , yeah , every day . Amen . We witness to people who are on death row . Everybody's waiting to die because God's proclaimed the death sentence upon them . We're going to be executed . Death is the arresting officer that takes sinners before the judgment bar of a holy God . And that's what we do . We preach to people who are on death row . Very sobering thought , isn't ?
Speaker 4it Big time . That was actually one of Augustine's arguments as well ,
being hesitant to agree with it . It's funny , I should clarify . I don't want to make Augustine sound monolithic in nature . I think often people will misquote Augustine to argue for just war and against just war , for death penalty and against death penalty . Augustine , his views on a lot of things , progressed over time from city of God to confessions , and so you have to read the totality of Augustine and understand him , and even then it can be a little bit complicated . So one of the points that Augustine made and this will be the last point I probably make against it , augustine argued that clemency allows for repentance . So he made the point that , like executing somebody cuts them off from the possibility of conversion .
Speaker 1He valued the potential of somebody getting saved so much that he wanted to keep them around as long as possible , and then- If I could talk to Augustine now , I'd say what about the 93 women that were strangled to death , that had no chance to come to repentance ?
Speaker 3Yeah , for sure I would say . You know , within a society where Christians have opportunity for influence , that you know , there could be those mechanisms where that person is given the gospel and has the opportunity to get right with God . But that doesn't eliminate the consequences Like we've talked about before . I may have a friend that I love . He comes into my house and he makes a pass at my wife . Well , I'm going to forgive him , I'm commanded to , but he's not coming into my house and being around my wife again .
Speaker 3So it's that sort of thing , and I think that .
Speaker 1What's his name ? Eze sort of thing , and I think that what's his name is he Jalabooksy , jalabooksy .
Speaker 2Can I say something really quick about Oscar here ? This is what I love about Oscar , honestly . I love the fact that you know in this what we're doing here , that we're not just all in agreement because you believe it . Right , it's ? Who was it that said unless you can convince me from Scripture , right , and this is what Oscar's doing convince me from Scripture , all right . So that's a beautiful sentiment . As terrible as it is , it's still a beautiful . I see what you're saying .
Speaker 2Oscar can say now , convince me from Scripture . Because , still , if somebody has and to your point , augustine , if somebody has the opportunity to repent over these few years , then why not give them that opportunity to repent , to which we would come along and say preach them the gospel on their deathbed before the firing squad comes out . And that just recently happened , a couple months ago , where somebody you know with the firing squad , and I get it . But this is what I love about Oscar . He's just saying guys . And then what I love about Living Waters and I love about we go to different churches , right , that we agree on primary , essential issues , and I'm going to be like the Bereans , who are more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica , and show me and then , at the end of the day , if we disagree , we're still going to go get in and out and we're still going to leak arms and we're still going to share the gospel and we're still going to go do those things .
Speaker 2I hungry , so I love that . I love this about Oscar .
Speaker 3No , it's a way that it should be . All of us should have those hearts that say man , I want to conform to what God's word says , you know , and be in line with it .
Speaker 1Easy . I've been going out for the last week and asking people about because this is such a high profile issue with what's going on in New York that guy that shot the insurance guy , ceo in the back , a loving father , a loving husband , and when I've given them the scenario if your mother was raped and strangled or stabbed to death , a couple of guys have said to me I wouldn't trust the justice system , I would kill them myself . I remember seeing that in the video .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1And that's cool . I said that's murder , you can't do that . And they said , yeah , I know it's vigilantism and scripture makes provision for that . We've got sanctuary cities in the US at the moment which are perversions of the setup of Scripture . Correct me if I'm wrong , but sanctuary cities were for people who had lost a loved one and wanted to take revenge , and so the murder that wasn't convicted or was convicted was to go to a sanctuary city to find sanctuary .
Speaker 3Yeah , it was for someone who unintentionally killed someone . It wasn't like murder , but it was an accident , but still the avenger of blood . So they'd go and they'd be safe there .
Speaker 4Real quick , sorry , just to wrap up , because then I want to share my thoughts in regards to why I am also on the other side of it , which is I used to look at . I struggle with Genesis 9-6 . You made an excellent point , which is that a lot of people to look at . I still I struggle with Genesis 9 , 6 . You made an excellent point , which is that a lot of people will look at Genesis 9 and go well , you know , that's a civil law , that's old law , but you made a really good point in which you connect it to the creation covenant , the creation mandate be fruitful and multiply , and one of the arguments that I guess I struggle with again is I fully agree with that , but then it's like okay , well , if that's connected and therefore for all people at all times , as one theologian pointed out , if you're going to take Genesis 6 , as for all people at all times , then why not take Genesis 4 , sorry .
Speaker 4Genesis 9 verse 6 , why not take Genesis four Genesis , sorry . Genesis nine verse six . Why not take Genesis nine verse four , which is , however , you must not eat meat with its lifeblood in it and I will require a penalty for your lifeblood . So , in other words , I will require it from any animal , from any human . So in other words , like it's connecting them all together . Now , again , this is just a place of struggle . With that said , let me turn the corner . You guys brought up a really good point , and this is sort of CS Lewis's point . You said well , what about honoring the dignity , the image bearing quality of the victim ? But CS Lewis takes it a step further . He says just punishment is actually honoring the imagearing quality of the person committing the crime , recognizing their need for moral obligation and responsibility . In other words , he points out that you are honoring the image-bearing quality in the perpetrator by holding them accountable in this kind of way , which is a fascinating argument .
Speaker 3Yeah , no , that is really good way , which is a fascinating argument . Yeah , no , that is really good . And again we forget the deterrent element and aspect of the death penalty . First , let me just say here in the United States , boy , I mean , some people are on death row for years , years and years . So it's not like .
Speaker 1They live longer than most because they're away from viruses and Club Med some of them .
Speaker 3I mean it really is a Club Med , a lot of these places , and that was the other aspect . I was going to say that it's almost a reward to some . You know , I've heard of criminals that like will commit a crime intentionally again to go back to prison . They got a roof over their head , they got three square meals , they can exercise , they can Healthcare yeah , healthcare , I mean , I know education . People get their masters and PhDs in prison . You know , again , not to over-glamorize it , but just saying that Besides , it's nicer than working here .
Speaker 4We can take care of that . I'll stay here for you , no problem .
Speaker 3But yeah , there's that element of remembering that , that you know and here's what we have to remember In many cases you didn't just take the life of a person and it stops there . You took someone's father someone's husband . You took someone who contributed to society Maybe it was a doctor . You killed this insurance company guy who's helping people , Right , you also murdered their descendants , Exactly . In some cases , right , You're killing descendants because that person you know could procreate and have more children or have children period . So , right , we have to think through stuff like that .
Speaker 1Yeah , some people point to Jesus and say he was against the death sentence because the woman caught in adultery was going to be put to death and he stopped it . But what we don't realize is he was on his way to Jerusalem to be executed on her behalf and then Jesus told us he that's without sin , let him cast the first stone at her . And if there's anyone that could have cast a stone at her , it was Jesus , because he was without sin . But the reference , I think , is to the fact that there's a stone coming to all of humanity . Jesus said , speaking of the wrath , of the law that's going to come , and when you grind something to powder , you do a thorough job . There's nothing left , and God's justice is going to be thorough on that day , right down to the thoughts and intents of the heart . Every idle word that a man speaks , he will give it account thereof on the day of judgment . So to say , there's a difference between the Old Testament God and the New Testament .
Speaker 1God is erroneous . God is just as wrath-filled . In fact , if you read Hebrews 10 , verse 28 and 29 , anyone who has rejected Moses' law died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses . Of how much more worse punishment , do you suppose ? Will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot and counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing and insulted the spirit of grace ? So how much more sore a punishment . So living under grace doesn't mean that we're exonerated from God's wrath and without the Savior we're under his wrath .
Speaker 4Mercy and grace ought to be distinct , because you mentioned it earlier , which is like we believe in justice . Justice requires a just response , right , but mercy and grace are two different things . Grace is afforded by the cross , Mercy isn't necessarily afforded by the cross , and a prime example , just to add to what you're saying , is that some people would argue well , when Jesus says you know , you've heard it say I for an I , but I'm saying forgive , the argument against that is yeah , but he's talking about personal retribution In no way , shape or form is he , they would argue , is arguing against the civil function of justice , and an example of that is the thief on the cross . Jesus turns to him and forgives him , says today you'll be with me in paradise , and yet he's still going to pay the punishment of his civil crime on the cross .
Speaker 1There's a wonderful plan beginning right now .
Speaker 3Yeah , I'm glad you brought that up , oscar , because I was going to mention that it's important for us to distinguish between our personal responsibility as believers and how we respond to people and engage , and then the responsibilities of a civil government established by God , who doesn't bear the sword in vain , who executes vengeance and wrath . Right , mark ? I mean we have to make that distinction because people cherry-pick as opposed to taking Scripture in context . I'd love you to speak to that the importance of hermeneutics when it comes to the Word .
Speaker 2Yeah , we need to be careful with proof texts . Right , I have this single verse and then , therefore , I have all of my theology based upon the single text . And what is the line that a singleGreta Kockle says never read a Bible verse ? I go well , what do you mean by that ? She says I'll never read a single Bible verse .
Speaker 4That's good .
Speaker 2Right . So a single verse by itself is easily taken out of context and becomes a pretext for everything out of context , right ? So we need to be careful with that . And so we believe that Scripture interprets Scripture , that we look at the totality of Scripture , from Genesis 1-1 to Revelation 22-21 , we see the totality of God's heart towards mankind and how valuable God's Word is and how we need to esteem it as much as he esteems it .
Speaker 2In fact , if we look at Acts 25 , verse 11 , the Apostle Paul says if I'm a wrongdoer , I do not seek to escape death . He's saying , listen , if I'm guilty , then justice says that I should be put to death . I get it , I'm going to come along , right . And so I look at that and I go , well , yeah , let's interpret Scripture amongst the Scripture . And when we have a proper hermeneutic , well then we can have a proper conversation . Proper hermeneutics have proper conversations . Good theology leads to good doxology , how we live and move and carry and have conversations one with another . So , yeah , a proper hermeneutic , herman who Todd Friel would say , herman who Hermeneutics . It's just . How do we interpret Scripture ? How do we know God's heart concerning anything ? Let's always turn to Scripture , and how neat would it be to always have a verse when somebody says something .
Speaker 4You put it really well and it reminded me of Rachel Denhollander's impact testimony . I don't know if you guys remember this or not , but she was the first person , I think , to come forward for when Larry Nassar was sexually abusing all of those Olympic girls , underage minors . I mean , I can't remember the number , but it was a lot . And , man , her impact testimony is . So if you haven't seen it , you should go online and watch it , but she forgave him right , it will bring you to tears
.
Speaker 4Yes , yes and Right , it brought me to tears and I went and read her book what Is a Girl Worth ? It's phenomenal . But even if you just watch the impact story , so she stands up , he is guilty , it's done , it's just a matter of judge is gonna determine life or whatever the case . And all these girls , one by one , came up and how dare you ? And expletives , and you did this to me and my life has changed forever and I can't , and you understand their pain . I mean they want him to receive the fullness of the wrath of the court system . Rachel Denhollander comes up there and she's like you deserve the fullness of the wrath of the justice system , but also I'm praying for your salvation . She points out like this wrath is merciful compared to the wrath of God and man . It's a prime example of forgiveness without losing sight of justice .
Speaker 3Yeah and Ray , there is the aspect man . What in the world ?
Speaker 1There seems to be a tadpole in your throat , trying to evolve into a frog . Try to drown it .
Speaker 3Drain it .
Speaker 1Drain it . You think you've got water in there I tried .
Speaker 3So , Ray , hey , what's that doing ?
Speaker 2there , that's your water . Ah , you licked the water . I already poured mine in my cup .
Speaker 3But so but , ray , there is the aspect of the victims of that person . It's not mine , it's yours .
Speaker 2It must have been yours . There were four .
Speaker 1Oscar's got his that water , that you're drinking is from a month ago .
Speaker 2Do I get the ?
Speaker 1death penalty for that ? Yes , no mercy I'm getting the death penalty . We're going to drown you for it .
Speaker 3But , ray , there is that aspect too of the victim who has the knowledge of , like , for example , like we've talked about , the mass murder , that person that murdered 90 people , 93 . 93 . Or let's take the Unabomber , or let's take those that have just huge , heinous crimes . Richard Ramirez , right , the thought , the torment he could escape . What if he escapes ? What if he comes , for me and the rest of our family ? I mean , there is that aspect of it too , for the victims .
Speaker 1Yeah , absolutely and absolutely . I've got nothing for you . I totally agree .
Speaker 2I remember there was a time when I was homeless right and it was during the time of Richard Ramirez , and I remember we had a relative that took in my family and I remember living on sleeping on the floor .
Speaker 1So you better give a little background , because this is a local . Thing . Richard Ramirez yeah , he was known as the Night Stalker . Night Stalker , yeah .
Speaker 2And I remember being scared that I did not want to sleep outside . And I remember going over towards the windows and closing the windows and trying I remember distinctively trying to lock a lock that would not lock on the window near where I was sleeping on the floor , scared to death . This is exactly . This is like what we're talking about .
Speaker 1Well , they couldn't catch him , could they they ?
Speaker 2couldn't .
Speaker 1Was it eight people he killed in the LA area ?
Speaker 4Yeah , one in Orange County , right . What catch him could they killing ? It was eight people he killed in the la area . Yeah , one of those , right ? What's that family in orange county ?
Speaker 1yeah and he would ? Would he carve a demonic sign into ?
Speaker 3their body . Yeah , pentagram or something , yeah , and then you had jeffrey dahmer . You know who was eating people and he killed them first yeah , oh , just just insane .
Speaker 3so I think , guys , to sum it up , I think it's crucial that there is care involved in this . You do have those clear-cut cases where there's no question , even the murderer confesses . I mean , imagine in California a murderer confesses to being a serial killer and then we still won't put him to death . I mean , there's no fear there that there could be a mistake . He's admitting it , we have forensic evidence that is unquestionable and yet they still won't do it . And I think that the good points that we've covered are the fact that this is honoring the dignity and value of that person .
Speaker 1Just got to say I'll just jump in here because we're in California and California is adamantly against the death sentence and adamantly for abortion-like you wouldn't , believe , especially the governor at the present time he will fly you across to California to kill your baby . And yet they let a guy who's confessed to 93 murders taking the lives of women 93 of them and he's living a life that's .
Speaker 2And he wants to put an abortion mill in every university in . California .
Speaker 3Man . I talk about judgment . Man , you think of the day of judgment for someone like that and the reckoning before the Lord ? There's such a blindness when it comes to those that are drunk with power , a blindness when it comes to those that are drunk with power a blindness .
Speaker 3It's almost this invincibility complex that I've talked about . They're so foolish . Their life is a breath . They're going to stand before a holy God and Ray , this is what you speak to all the time about hell . If there wasn't a hell , then people like Hitler and some of these atrocious murderers that we were talking about , that's it .
Speaker 1Nothing . Yeah , it's survival of the fittest , that's all . He was fit , but Jews weren't .
Speaker 3Yeah , well , guys , may the Lord help us to continue to examine the Scriptures , to think through these things , to talk about them , to discuss them and again to fall back ultimately on what the designer of man has said is best you know and what should happen . But let's not be glib , let's not take these things lightly and let's show charity as we discuss these things .
Speaker 4One thing real quick , just towards the younger Christians out there . You know , no amount of reading , no amount of online research , of YouTubing , of chat GPTing can do what God means to do in fellowship .
Speaker 2In other words I can .
Speaker 4I can learn as much , I can gather as much data as I as I can through reading and observing , but wisdom comes through fellowship . And so one thank you , guys , for fellowship , but also two for those out there that love to think deeply about these things do it in the context of fellowship .
Speaker 3Amen . Hey , look , find your own Living Waters podcast crew and do what we do here . All we do is sit around and fellowship . That's what this is .
Speaker 4It's not like we do this and we walk away unaffected .
Speaker 3We never talk to each other other than this , but we walk away , impacted ourselves because truth has been dispensed . We've engaged on truth and that's the element that you can't get from the artificial social media and online world . You don't get the organic back and forth , iron sharpening , iron , fellowship . So all right , friends , there you have it . Don't forget the track sample pack Living Waters mug , the Evidence Study Bible , living Waters TV and the podcast YouTube channel . Check out all of our stuff at livingwaterscom and remember friends podcasts at livingwaterscom and remember friends podcasts at livingwaterscom with all your thoughts and criticisms of Ray , mark and Oscar . Why are you laughing , ray ? Well ?
Speaker 1I'm seeing the sanity meter as you're talking . You go like it goes oh , he's almost sane there talking properly , and then straight after that . So the meter goes off the charts every time you do that .
Speaker 3Thank you for joining us , friends . We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast , where we have no idea what we're doing .