Greg , brother , we're blessed to have you with us , man , so encouraged by what the Lord's been doing in and through your life . You've been working again with Fortis for a long time the Transform podcast , the television series that you do , which includes counseling people . You're the chair of the School of Biblical Studies at the Masters University , fellow at the Fortis Institute and you pastor . You counsel , man . You do a lot of stuff . You served in the military too .
Speaker 1Sure , yeah , today we're going to be talking about the unbiblical errors of psychiatry and psychology , and this is sparked by an amazing , amazing book you wrote Lies . My Therapist Told Me why Christians Should Aim for More Than Just Treating Symptoms . This is a phenomenal book . Someone in one of the endorsements , I think , said that they thought this is going to kind of be the authoritative work on this subject , and I really think it is going to be . I was encouraged , I was personally edified , especially , man , that last chapter about Christ . I mean , I was reading it and just worshiping the Lord , and so we're excited to have you with us . Tell us what's been behind the book and how it's been doing so far .
Speaker 2You just look behind the book . It's on the back .
Speaker 3Your name is behind the book . No , it was a . I mean , honestly , as a counselor , there's always a bunch of methods that seem odd , things that come up , and sometimes , as a Christian , it's just like I don't know if these things are actually dealing with the root of the issue . So , instead of just critiquing all those downstream things , it was really the beginning of me trying to figure out why , as Christians , do we use those ? What's happening ? Are those things really treating the root of the cause ? And that's where the book came in , where I wanted to help speak to . What are the ideas behind modern day therapy secular , secular psychology , psychiatry and are they really helping us or are they making things worse ? So , like that's how the trajectory started and that was probably three years ago .
Speaker 4Just starting to think that through and do that research you know , when we talk about counseling right , it kind of falls into many different sorts of categories . But here in particular , maybe you can give a working definition of what does it mean to have biblical counseling right ? I have a Christian friend who grew up in a homosexual lifestyle and when he became a Christian he still had these temptations . He thought that they would magically kind of fall apart and go away . And he had a Christian counselor come to him and say hey , every time you're tempted , I want you to smell this bag of dog feces , and then you can relate the two together . And he said it just grossed me out . He ended up walking away from the Christian faith . But when we talk about biblical counseling , talk about integration , define it for us . Where do we start ? Sure , yeah .
Speaker 3Big picture . Biblical counseling is trying to use the Bible as the authority and the source , the authority and the source . So it's not just that we're saying , well , we're going to use a proverb here and there you guys know Dave Ramsey , you know Financial Peace He'll take one proverb and frame this whole methodology off that one proverb . We're not trying to do that . We're trying to say let's think about people through the lens of Scripture , let's think about their problems through the lens of Scripture , let's think about the solutions to their problems through the lens of Scripture . And honestly , as anthropology goes , so goes all of the rest your care for people , the solutions you would offer them . So it's biblical counseling . It's not trying to claim its own jurisdiction , it's just trying to help people from the authoritative and sufficient Word of God . I mean , that's really the end of it .
Speaker 5I think the state of mental health in the United States is in such a tipping point right now and there's not very many places where people can turn . Sure , you can , you can . You've seen this . I mean , you know , if you turn to modern therapy , to your point , like the , the DMR , which is the book therapists use , it basically encourages them to affirm and pursue whatever feeling they find inside of themselves . To your point earlier , there's no authority in God , it's only authority in your own heart . In other words , if you're a Christian and you walk into a modern therapy office and you say I've got these inner feelings , same-sex attraction , they will say okay's , let's help you come
to peace with that . There's no authority outside of your inner desire . If you go in there and you say I want to divorce my spouse and leave my children , okay , I will help you come to terms with that decision and communicate that to your family . That's ultimately what modern therapy will drive you to , because there's no rudder steering the ship . There's no ultimate authority beyond my inner feelings and desires .
Speaker 5But let me turn the mirror a little bit and say also so many churches and pastors are underprepared and are not equipped to have these kind of important conversations as well . I've seen a pastor where they got this book that was written in the 80s and it was like he would prescribe out of context Bible verses oh , you're depressed . Here is your Bible verse Go , be depressed no more . And they don't have the tools and resources to actually walk people through some of this . And the kicker is that sometimes people would walk away feeling shamed , as though if I'm depressed it can only be that I'm in sin , not recognizing the scriptures invitation to understand suffering in the way that some of us will have , suffering that is given to us by the Lord . And so how ? I guess the question is like where do we go ? How does the average person who's maybe listening to this going ? Okay , well , I don't want to go to my psychiatrist , but I can't go to a therapist and my pastor doesn't seem to have
answers for me . What do they do ?
Speaker 3I think that's a win because they're asking and they're open to what God's word might say first of all . And so it's kind of a failure on our part if we say , well , don't go to a therapist , but we have no one for you to go to . It's like , oh great , well , I got to go to my therapist .
Speaker 3Biblical counseling is its own field now and that means that there are counselors , resources , training centers , all of that that correspond to that field . It is a growing field . I think you could trace it back to the 60s , 60s , early 70s . So that means that it has refinements that need to take place , or it means that there are people that need to grow in nuance and understanding suffering versus sin , like those things exist . But if someone's watching this or listening to this , biblical counselingcom is where I would start , which is the association of certified biblical counselors , and the certified really matters because it's not just someone who has a good heart , but it's someone who's actually gone through training . They've been evaluated and supervised in that process of counseling . So if , if you're stuck and listening to this biblicalcounselingcom , find a counselor and look for those resources , that's the , that's the next step .
Speaker 2Yeah , greg . What are some of the red ? I know you touched on it slightly before the following the finger . What are some of the red flags that people should look for when it comes to someone counseling them ?
Speaker 3Yeah , I would really , really , really be guarded against going to an unbeliever first of all to get help with your mind , because here's what we're practically saying . They've done years of training , but it's in humanistic psychology , it's in Rogerian counseling , it's in some man-centered therapy , that unbeliever doesn't believe in the soul , immaterial person , afterlife , jesus , doesn't understand the basic purpose of life to glorify God and enjoy Him forever . And now I'm going to go to them and bear my life before them and get life advice from them . So I think honestly , if a person's not a Christian , we're doing our best not to go to them . We're looking for at least a Christian counselor or therapist .
Speaker 2Blessed is the man who walks , not on the counsel of the ungodly . A lot of people are told they have mental disease
because they're depressed . Do you think it's legitimate to tell someone they are mentally unstable because they're depressed ? And the reason I'm asking that is we've got a lot to be depressed about in this world and I think someone who's depressed is sane because they're thinking about the fact they're going to die , they're going to lose their loved ones , the whole world's in a mess and there's a lot of reasons to be depressed . And the same people that say depression is a mental disease say something like 300 million people in the world have got depression , so they've got mental disease right , which puts the whole human race in a mess right .
Speaker 3yeah , it's hard to define what a mental disease is , even by the secular therapeutic . So it's there's . There's no objective line of when you have it and when you don't . We can't do a scan of your brain , we can't do blood work . What you're going to do is verbally describe your symptoms and a psychologist sometimes general practitioners , or a psychiatrist . They will diagnose you based off your symptoms . So is that person mentally unstable ? We can't define what mentally unstable is if we're using the secular therapeutic excuse me terminology . So that's the real issue . So what happens is the diagnosis grows because there's no objective way to verify you have it and there's no objective way to verify you don't have it . So , but I want to keep adding that caveat of you can be sad and not have a mental disease . So don't hear me say there's no such thing as depression . But I am saying there's no objective way to verify
you have depression and that's why the diagnosis keeps growing .
Speaker 2And there's one way to add to someone's depression is to tell them they're mental on top of their depression .
Speaker 3And there's no cure , yeah yeah , other than psychotropics and antidepressants .
Speaker 2Would you've got symptoms that are worse than the disease often ?
Speaker 4What role does medication ? I remember reading inside your book about the missionary family , you know , and the mother was like going insane . What is there a balance here ? And I know that I'm opening up a can of worms here talking about the medication side of it , but Sure , those are .
Speaker 3I mean , those are the questions everybody's asking Like so are you saying it's wrong to take an antidepressant and the answer is no ? We are not saying that . What I'm saying is that the antidepressant is treating your body when it may actually be a mental issue . So if the mind is immaterial , there is no pill that you're going to take that's going to change your mind . Easy example we would pay good money for a pill that would give us pure thoughts , but it doesn't exist and it will never exist , because pills cannot change your heart , your inner person or your mind . So what are those pills doing ? Helping you manage symptoms like Tylenol ? Tylenol has a place , but Tylenol can actually create more problems for you if you're not dealing with the root of the issue . So we don't want to feel better if we're in hardened , unrepentant sin
with the root of the issue .
Speaker 4So we don't want to feel better if we're in hardened , unrepentant sin Like so . Headaches are not caused from a lack of Tylenol , right ? Right Is basically the point here , right ? So when you medicate and there's no real diagnosis happening and most medicine is treating a symptom , not the actual problem , I think that we have the ability to take this easy way out . Right , when we think that Christians come along and they say I believe the Bible is true . However , there's some practical steps , you know , maybe things become pragmatic and this just helps me to move forward . And then we have another issue of we're not bearing one another's burdens and we're not , you know , I guess , just fighting through what we're going through , right ?
Speaker 3right To your point . Medical doctors should be pursued and we should test for any reason why there might be a medical issue going on , why I feel the way I do . But if there's no medical reason , then we should at least be open to what's going on in my inner person that's encouraging these outer man symptoms .
Speaker 1in all fairness , yeah , and at the end of the day , it always comes down to authority . I mean , we're either going to lean on man himself being the final authority on all things that relate to life and the foundations of the world in which we live , or we're going to rely on the authority of God's Word . I mean , that's it , and I love simplicity . You know we have those two options and it's one or the other every
single time , and it's sad to me . I think that people don't think in that way . One of the questions I've been asking people I mentioned on the podcast is who's the most significant human being that has ever lived that has most impacted the world ? Almost everyone says Jesus , and then I asked him what is the most impactful book in all of history , the most printed , the most read , the most translated , the most purchased ? The Bible . I say , man , if Jesus is the most significant person that's ever lived the Bible is the most important book , the greatest book ever written then wouldn't you be wise to say who is Jesus and what does His Word say ? And so it's sad that a lot of Christians even don't recognize that , but they're going to the world not realizing that they are , in a sense , helping to verify it . Quote as an authority . And that's tragic .
Speaker 1Thank you for tuning in to this week's highlights from the Living Waters podcast . Friends , we value your time , so we've created a bite-sized version of our podcast for listeners who want to get equipped . Without the jokes and fellowship . Be sure to check out the full episode every Thursday where we dive deeper into the topic . Until then , you can watch the full podcast episode available now on livingwaterstv .