The reason why we address issues like this and why we've discussed Catholicism is because the gospel is at stake Absolutely , and while there are a lot of things that we can agree on in terms of the historicity of Christianity and some of the essential doctrines , especially as it deals with the character of God , the deity of Christ , the triunity of God and so forth , but there are gospel issues when it comes to especially the doctrine of soteriology in terms of how is one saved , and I believe the Catholic church has a different gospel .
So the real question is like was Peter really the first Pope ? I believe strongly that what happens in the Catholic church is that they apply today's structure into yesterday's church , and so the idea of a singular , authoritative papacy rooted in Peter is historically inaccurate . It's sort of like revisionist history to go back and claim that Peter was the first Pope . And let me make an argument as to why the early church , as a summary and I borrow a lot from church history in plain language , the early church was collegial , not hierarchical
. In other words , what ended up happening is , without a doubt , the early church probably looked more like a presbytery that we would see today than it does like a non-denominational church , in the sense that if you looked at Asia Minor , rome , alexandria , what we had is a collection of churches and an established bishop , and that established bishop would help lead those church leaders along the way . And over time , what ended up happening ? As Rome gained in power , so did the bishop that sat in Rome would gain not so much power but influence , and we have a lot of examples of like .
Speaker 3Clement historically is now considered an early Pope , but we have writings from Clement in which he himself does not claim to have any authority over the church and , as a matter of fact , this is one of the biggest surprises . There's quite a bit of Roman Catholic historians that argue against this revisionist history . Even the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia admits this is a quote . In this early period , bishops and priests were synonymous . Authority belonged to a college of Presbyter bishops . In other words , authority didn't belong to the bishop who was in Rome . Authority belonged to these collection of bishops that oversaw churches in different parts of the world , and so , in other words , we don't historically see a singular Pope figure in the way that we understand it today in those first 300 to 350 years of church history
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Speaker 1Yeah , no , that's a good point to make , Oscar , and I think there's so much that people just take at face value . And , Ray , one of the things you do and I love that when you're sharing the gospel is you challenge people to look at the word Like one of the things you'll often say , like when it comes to purgatory as an example . That's not in the Bible , right ?
Speaker 2Yeah , they accept that 99% of the time . People say it's not so , it's not Our problem when it comes to witnessing to Catholics or sharing the gospel with Catholics is that they insult tradition above the word of God , like the Pharisees did . Jesus said by your tradition you have made void the word of God . So we can feel hogtied if they don't believe anything the Bible says . And that's where we've got to go back and trust the power of the gospel and trust the fact that salvation is of the Lord . So when someone says I don't believe the Bible , I just go to the gospel and realize the gospel is the power of God to salvation . And when they hear the gospel , god opens the eyes of their understanding and he opens their eyes to his word and the authority of his word , and that's my strong consolation .
Speaker 4What I like about this is the best apologetic is Scripture . So when talking to a Catholic or a Mormon or somebody who believes in reincarnation , utilizing Scripture is so important because it's the Word of God that is living and powerful , sharper than any two-edged sword . So William Tyndale is saying , and through his mission to put the text into the common hand , people's life , and even utilizing words that we use today , because of William Tyndale , not only inside the English Bible but inside of the dictionary itself , that he made the Bible . God used him to make the Bible accessible to everybody today . So therefore , there's no question whether or not Jesus said something or intent , or anything it may be , because we can go utilizing the original language and , through great commentaries , understanding culture , customs and tradition , understand what the text originally said .
Speaker 4What did the original author mean when he wrote to the original audience ? And that's the beautiful thing with Scripture alone , because it is our final authority
. Rc Sproul he said the rock of Matthew 16 is the confession that Jesus is the Christ , not Peter himself . Right , so Peter was important , but he wasn't preeminent . As MacArthur said , we don't downgrade Peter for the role that he had . Same thing with Mary Mary she was blessed among women , right ? I mean , she bore the Messiah we just don't venerate , we don't bow down , we don't pray too . It's not necessary to do those things , and when we interpret Scripture using Scripture , if you were to do that at face value , you're going to come to this same conclusion . It's only through the teaching of the Catholic Church , through tradition , through some sort of written liturgy that might be out there , that you're gonna come to the conclusion that Peter is a pope , but he never himself would have said that he was the pope ever We've referenced before , that it's not so much what the Catholic Church affirms , it's what they add , right .
Speaker 1So there's always addition . So to the Bible , they're adding the Apocrypha , to grace , they're adding the sacraments and works . To Jesus , they're adding the saints . So there's always an addition and addition , and addition , and ultimately it just and I'd like you to comment on this it takes people's focus off of Jesus , which is where our focus should be , as
our Redeemer .
Speaker 2Absolutely . And I've learned something in the last few years when I've talked to Catholics is that they don't understand the gospel . They understand that Jesus died for our sins , but they don't know what that means . And to substantiate this , to make it clear that they don't understand , I often say to people when they realize they're in big trouble , they're heading for hell . They believe that Jesus died on the cross . I say to them what does that mean for you ? Now ? That happened 2,000 years ago . He died on the cross for our sins . What does that mean ? How can it help you in your dilemma ? You're under God's wrath , heading for hell , and they don't know . And yet he's on the cross in front of them at the church , the Catholic church . I'm doing a cross here .
Speaker 2And they just don't understand it . And I said well , I want you to listen very carefully because this is going to open the eyes of your understanding , understanding the fact that he died for our sins so we could be released from God's wrath by his righteousness that's imputed to us , and it's just . Catholics are such fertile ground . You know , I've spoken to hundreds , if not thousands , of Catholics over the years and I've learned when it comes to these issues . When someone says I'm a room Catholic , I've learned to hundreds , if not thousands , of Catholics over the years and I've learned when it comes to these issues . When someone says I'm a Roman Catholic , I've learned to go deaf . I deliberately do it . I learned to go deaf , mark , and by that I mean I do not want to get drawn into an argument with them over their church doctrine because they've got scriptures . They can , like we're saying , they can take one text out and say , oh , peter's , the Pope , mary is this , she's exalted , she's the mother of God . I don't want to go in those avenues , no-transcript .
Speaker 1Martin Luther said the Pope is not , according to divine right , the head of the Christian church . Spurgeon said Christ is the head of the church , not the Pope , nor any other man . Christ needs no vicar or vicar , jc Ryle . The idea of a Pope is utterly foreign to the Bible . There is no trace of it in the New Testament , RC Sproul . There is not one shred of biblical evidence for the office of the papacy . Francis Schaeffer , hierarchy in the church that undermines the authority of Scripture is rebellion . Wow , and I'll finish off with John MacArthur Peter was not a pope . The idea of a pope is anti-biblical . Christ is the head of the church , not any man , and so we hope you get this . This is just a surface-level treatment of this . We don't have the time to go in depth , but I encourage you believers , examine the scriptures to see if these things are . So Be a Berean and study and read and speak the truth . And for those of you listening who are Catholics ,
may you turn to Christ and believe the true gospel . You have the true Christ now . Receive the true gospel that salvation is a gift that is given by God to those who have violated his law .
Speaker 1If you've stolen once , you're a thief . You've lied once , you're a liar . If you've looked with lust , you're an adulterer . You've used God's name in vain , you're a blasphemer . You've had unjust anger or hatred in your heart , you're guilty of murder . In the sight of God , it's through the death and resurrection of Christ that set you free , but you must come to him in repentance and faith and receive that free gift . Thank you for tuning in to this week's highlights from the Living Waters podcast . Friends , we value your time , so we've created a bite-sized version of our podcast for listeners who want to get equipped without the jokes and fellowship . Be sure to check out the full episode every Thursday , where we dive deeper into the topic . Until then , you can watch the full podcast episode available now on livingwaterstv .