Ep. 370 - Virtue Signaling vs. True Virtue

True virtue becomes visible only when the desire to walk faithfully before God outweighs the instinct to manage appearances for others. Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar examine how virtue signaling has become a modern way of seeking approval, noting that the human urge to belong often pressures believers to display moral outrage or spiritual discipline without genuine conviction. The guys explain that people have always looked for safety in groups, and that this instinct can quietly influence the heart, even in Christian settings.

The guys discuss how social media amplifies this struggle by rewarding the performance of virtue. They point out how easy it is to post a Bible verse, a devotional highlight, or a polished quote without allowing those truths to shape character. Christian leaders carry an added weight because their online presence serves as a form of shepherding, and the guys worry that many settle for shallow guidance rather than deep spiritual engagement. Mark recalls receiving a negative review simply for quoting someone unpopular, and the guys use that example to show how expectations can override thoughtful reflection.

The guys turn to resisting the lure of appearances and returning to the steady work of communion with God. Virtue comes from God’s own righteousness, justice, and truth, and the guys emphasize that Christians need to slow down, detach from screens, and develop habits that shape the heart rather than the image. They encourage believers to reflect on whether frequent posting influences their behavior or simply reveals what already exists beneath the surface. The more people disconnect from quiet spaces, the easier it becomes to slip into spiritual performance rather than genuine spiritual depth. They suggest taking small steps, such as dedicating the first moments of the day to reflection rather than scrolling.

In closing, the guys stress that holiness is demonstrated not through public declarations but through consistent, humble acts of repentance and love. They warn against overcorrecting by trying too hard to avoid virtue signaling, which can distract from the gospel. Instead, they urge believers to show real love, confess sin promptly, and accept correction without defensiveness. They remind listeners that the true mark of a Christian is a heart focused on God’s approval rather than human applause. The difference between virtue signaling and true virtue is the motive; when believers seek the Lord’s approval above all, it will change how they live, respond, and quietly grow.

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Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro

Transcript

Shallow Advice And False Shepherds

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You would never, I hope, give medical or tax advice without actually having the important, you know, uh uh education and credentials to do that. You wouldn't lead people astray in that way. And yet, so many of us are willing to give shallow spiritual advice. And I mean, I think about Ezekiel 34, which is there's these false shepherds of Israel who are looking like leaders, but aren't actually caring for the flock. And that's what we do when we virtue signal in the way that we do online for the sake of engagement and likes and follows. And so the ultimate takeaway here is I think that we all need to value a deep spiritual thoughtfulness, deep spiritual engagement. Because just to use one other metaphor here, and I know the golden rule of not switching metaphors, I'm definitely breaking it. But when we perceive, when we give this perception that we have deep thoughtfulness, we're inviting people to dive headfirst into the shallowness of the pool. We need depth, we need leaders who care more about virtue than vibes. I think it's I think we we just we simply like that. And we've seen it, like we've all talked about that guy who's online, who has a mass following, has never been discipled, who wouldn't qualify as an elder in his local church, but qualifies to have a million followers. That's the that's a problem.

Tell Me Why: Lighthearted Style Detours

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Tell me why, tell me, sweet little wise. The segment of the podcast where I ask why. Moustaches. Tell me why. Because the nose is that important. But tell me why one man, one day, and had to be one, because I'm sure no two people on the same day decided. Maybe a woman invented it. Or three or fifty or a hundred. What?

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Maybe a woman came up with it.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Uh Jesus had a mustache. He did not.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

He did so? You think Abraham Lincoln be it? You're kidding. He might have.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

I just want to cause envy in you. Just as we got started, I got a text from a friend saying they're giving us their cold plunger.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

What?

SPEAKER_00 2:21

No. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Oh, I'm so mad. Are you serious?

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Yeah, I'm just saying, because we were just talking about it yesterday.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Do we have some details? Giving it to me. Is that what you're about to tell us? Uh Oscar and I yesterday were talking about uh cold plunge uh tubs, uh-huh, you know, for my cold plunging.

SPEAKER_05 2:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

And my wife had texted me saying, hey, I think we should get one.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Did you ask them?

SPEAKER_00 2:41

And then today she sent me, right now she just sent me a text thread uh that our friends are giving us their cold plunge. Did you guys ask for? No, I think Kelly inquired, and they're like, well, actually, how much is one worth? There's they said she said there she looked it up, they bought for 5,500.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Why don't you just jump in a bath of cold water? 5,500.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

The problem with that is, well, I tried the ice thing. It's so you gotta make ice, you gotta this like keeps it at a certain temperature. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

So for those listening, thank you for the cold plunge, but also I'm interested in a motorcycle.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

And Oscar, you cold plunge because I told you to. No, no, no, no, no, no. Okay, mustaches. Tell me why. Ray, why did you have a mustache for so many years?

SPEAKER_03 3:22

The nose has to be underlined because it's important. It's that important. Uh huh. Why do you call it a mousse stash? It is. It's a mustache. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Moustache.

SPEAKER_03 3:29

I've always called it a moustache. They have mustache cups. Have you seen those cups that are designed for mustaches? They're really cups. Yeah. What do you mean? You know I'm talking the truth, Oscar. They are special cups that are designed that your mustache goes into the little gap there so you can drink without soaking it. Wait, are you serious? I'm serious. It's a mustache cup.

SPEAKER_05 3:47

What?

SPEAKER_03 3:47

Mark, look it up. Verify it. Just put mustache cup.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Ray, I must ask you a question.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

Um mullets. Tell me why. I'm in. What do you mean you're in?

SPEAKER_00 3:58

If if it wasn't for the fact that I would lose my job if I grew one, I'd grow a mullet.

unknown 4:02

No.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

You're gonna lose your job anyway because that's a good idea. You couldn't grow one. You're like me. My hair doesn't grow out, it grows up. So you'd get a little soft.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

I think Mark would like to say something. Yeah, Mark.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

No, they don't exist.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

Mustaches. 21 verse 8. Exists that exist. You are told why it ain't. Yeah, it's getting whole static. I think lots of them.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

So your mustache goes there and stupid ash.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Did you ever have one, right?

SPEAKER_03 4:32

No, I don't need one. I like to I like to taste my food hours afterwards.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

For dessert later. Uh pork chop sideburns. Elvis.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Elvis. Beverly Hills 902.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Did Elvis invent those? No. I've been around since they used to do them back like in the 1780s. Way back then. Bell bottoms. Tell me why.

SPEAKER_03 4:54

They go in and out of fashion. Bell.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Some of Alexandra Graham Bellbottom. Oh, I used to really hate those as a kid, especially. What did you say, Mark?

SPEAKER_01 5:03

I used to cuff my pants.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Yeah, me too. 80s. Did you ever do that, Oscar? Were you in that era? Cuffing? Yeah, cuffing's in. No, no, no. Not cuffing like loose. We used to, remember, Mark, we would fold them over. And then so it was like tight or like totally tapered. Four, five, six.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

I also have a pair of corduroy bell bottoms.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Oh no. That makes it doubly worse. Okay, but this you guys are lucky with. This you guys have to agree with me. Not earrings, but ear plugs. Not the earplugs that plug your ears, but that plug your lobe. I have them in right now. No. Seriously, I don't understand those. It's because okay, you you pierce your ear, you have a tiny little hole, people see it, but whatever. Plugs, you're talking a lifetime.

SPEAKER_03 5:46

Oh, you mean like an inch and a half.

SPEAKER_02 5:48

And they keep growing in you have sagging.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

And they think they're really with it, and you just got Africa, the that's what they did years ago. Yeah, no, and I mean it's got a plate in the front of the leg. Well, they're great for cereal.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Practically speaking, it's a great place. Practically speaking, it's a great place to hang your coat when your hands are full.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Nope. Okay, and finally, good. Sagging pants. Tell me why.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

You mean pants on the ground?

SPEAKER_02 6:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Pants on the ground.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

That I want to know who came up with and like thought, hey, pretty cool, man. Hat turned sideways, gold in your mouth.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Remember that guy? That guy was a hit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Pants on the ground, pants on the ground.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Yeah. When's the last time you wore saggy pants, though? Because I guarantee you've done it.

Listener Letter And Ministry Banter

SPEAKER_02 6:36

Okay, I did when I was a gangster, but not like what they do. You just sag. Were you immediately sanctified or did you ever show up to church with sagging? You sag a few inches. No, immediately. You sag a few inches. Not like That's how the police catch them.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

Good point.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Lower body. All right, Fran, time for a cool classy comment.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

Well, you have a physical form right now. What is that? I know. It actually is someone sent it to us. Yes. Can you believe it?

SPEAKER_02 7:03

This is from Alaric. Dear Living Waters friends, thank you all. Thank you for all you have done. You all have inspired me to share my faith with others. There was a time in my life where my faith was dormant. I said I was saved, but there wasn't any fruit. I'm not sure if I was saved at all, but through a series of events, I became on fire for the Lord. One of those main events was seeing one of Ray's Evangelism videos. Through what I was uh through what I that I was introduced to Living Waters, and now I watch everything I can that you guys do. Sorry. It is so neat to see how God has used you guys in my life. I've been listening to the podcast for a while now because of that, and have come to see you guys truly as my friends. And more importantly, brothers in Christ. Thank you for your work for the Lord and praise him for using you guys. Thank you, Mark, for your drive to obey the Lord, for your conviction and sharing your faith so that we may benefit. I love how you tell us things that are so real and make sense. Specifically, the story about your daughter pushing you to evangelize even when you don't want to. Thank you, Easy, for your passion for evangelism and your conviction. Zeal. I know it isn't just a big thing. Make sure you want to get out and stay up. Thank you, Oscar, for spending your time learning about things specifically the Lord. The Lord has used the time you spent reading all those many books to bring edification to me and others. Yes. Also, I agree that coffee is best black. You don't like coffee if you put stuff in it. You just like the other stuff. Sorry, easy. And Ray now, I guess. Never thought that one would happen. Thank you, Ray, for your persistence and perseverance and evangelism. Through you, I have gotten to be able to share my faith with others. Not only have you evangelized to those who you do face-to-face or street preaching, but also to those who watch online. Not only that, but also through those who go and share their faith because of you. Thank you. Praise the Lord for the work he has done through you guys. I love the edification and the banter. Don't ever stop the banter. Thank you. It makes my day every Tuesday. You all truly are like friends. I hope to meet you soon. Alaric. Thank you all. I was listening. Can you read the Oscar part again? No, never again. Thanks, Alaric. That was easy. Thank you for reading that. We wouldn't have to be friends if it wasn't for him. My pleasure. My pleasure. All right. And now, no, is that it? Oh no. Podcast rankings. Number three in Mozambique. Number listening is Malaysia Rosen. Mozambique and Malaysia. And Malaysia. Malaysia. Number 41 in Canada. I love Canada.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

But also challenge to Canada. How is Mozambique beating you? I'm just saying, Stebbia. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

And Malaysia. Don't forget that. Thank you guys out there for uh listening. It really does mean a lot to us. A radically revolutionary resource. This podcast is bringing me.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

How'd you know? It just kind of came to me. No. No, it did.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

It just revelation. Ray, over 450,000 copies in print. Now, uh Charlie Kirk got this. It said 300 and something. Yeah, it was 350,000. We've added. We've added. Yeah, Ray.

SPEAKER_03 10:10

I just want to commend Mart for doing so much for our ministry. Matt? Giving the Hell's Buscan Secret to Kirk Cameron and then Charlie Kirk.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

Yeah. And Ray, you know what I like about this book? 128 pages. I mean, you were able to condense it. Yeah, that's what it was.

SPEAKER_03 10:26

That's the reason it was written to condense it.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

And this was uh, what was it? This is based on uh originally what was it? Keys to Golden Revival. No, no, no. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 10:35

It was originally called the Mantle of the Harlot. Oh, that's right. And then that got condensed down a little.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

My son tried to give one to Michael Knowles last night. Yes, he did. Oh, he went to that event. It didn't end up happening. The guy spoke and then he bailed. Oh, that was at the uh Nixon Library right next to your house.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

I'm kind of just realizing the Lord put Mark on this planet to reach the Kirks with the gospel. Oh, Kirk and Kirk.

SPEAKER_03 11:01

The word Kirk means church. Captain Kirk.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Yeah.

Defining Virtue Signaling And Examples

SPEAKER_02 11:04

So check it out, friends. Got it.

SPEAKER_03 11:06

We really need to get to Shafe. Uh was that William Shannon? Willem Shanner? Yeah. He's getting old. He's another Kirk, yeah. Because he's doing it.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

He used to act really weird on that uh Star Trek thing. That's just him.

SPEAKER_03 11:17

Oh, and Spock, and Spock wasn't. What was it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:22

Live Long and Live Long and Prosper. Oh, that's part of your rap I have for you, Oscar. All right, friends. Oh yeah. God has a wonderful one for your life, myth of modern message. Don't forget the Live Waters mug, David Study Bible, Living Waters TV, LivingWaters.com, all that. LivingWaters.com. Ah, and don't forget the podcast YouTube channel, friends. All right, today, virtue signaling versus true virtue. First of all, definitions. Do you guys know what virtue signaling means?

SPEAKER_03 11:50

Well, I don't know about signaling. Merch virtue means moral excellence, does it not? You mean moral excellence? Yeah. That's the character of God.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

You see that in translations too, yeah. In 2 Peter 1, it's translated virtue and then moral excellence in other versions.

SPEAKER_03 12:04

Same as Luke. Luke 8, 46. Ooh.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

Virtue signaling, I found online, is the act of publicly expressing moral outrage or righteousness to gain approval rather than to honor God. Well, right? Performance is what it is. It's uh it's kind of blowing your horn. Phariseaism. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

What's an example that you'd give, Easy? That we'd see on social media.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

Wearing a mask in your car by yourself.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Could they be legitimately scared though?

SPEAKER_02 12:38

Like a hockey mask? That should be illegal.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

I fully agree. But I mean, that is that really virtue signaling? Could it be that they're Yeah, you might be right.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

Maybe I'm being judgmental. Um I I don't know. I I think I think a general example would be doing something, not because you really believe like you should be doing it or it's right, but because of uh how you feel you would look if you didn't do it or what praise you would get if you did do it.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Or like the blackout box on that Tuesday with Black Lives Matter. Was it like in 2020 or something?

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Blackout box?

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Remember they would blackout, they would post a box that was all black on their Instagram page. Oh. I remember that.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Or like the bucket water bucket challenge.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Water bucket challenge. That's good. Did you guys ever hear that, by the way? No, because we're we're not virtue signaling. Um celebrities at the Oscars talking about climate change? Would that be an example? And then they fly on their jets. Oh, yeah. That might be a good example. Hal Gore got a lot of heat for that.

SPEAKER_03 13:39

Or like saw him once in a plane, didn't we?

SPEAKER_02 13:41

He was on our plane. Yeah. We didn't know. And then later we put it all together because when we were walking on the plane, there was a guy lying across the aisle looking under one of the seats. And then we ended up seeing him on the city.

SPEAKER_03 13:53

Oh, I put a tract under the seat. That's what he meant. Or contraband.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Virtual signaling is like taking a picture of your Bible and notes out and then spending your entire time. Stop setting up your social media account for it and then walking away and never actually reading your Bible.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

I mean, look at that's legit right there, right? What are you doing? Just taking in the sunrise with the Lord early this morning, listening to my music.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

Boy, there's something in the human heart, isn't there? That that um I guess praise of man, um, reputation, tribalism. Define that, Oscar.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Yeah. Well, you know, human beings have historically uh found safety in being a part of a tribe. If you go back to like you, you know, we started out nomadic. You think about like the uh the Israelites roaming through the desert, right? If they were to be shamed out of their tribe, they're alone to be eaten by animals, to be taken over by another tribe. And so to be a part of a tribe is a form of safety and security. And that that need to feel a part of a tribe is still ingrained in every single one of us today. We find tribes in the theological circles we find ourselves in, we find tribes in the political circles we find ourselves in. We even find tribes in the clothing or uh products that we consume. So we have this incessant need to feel safe and a part of a tribe. And virtue signaling is sort of like a modern way of telling people I'm a part of your tribe. I'm a part of your tribe based on who I follow, who I quote, the people that I associate myself with. That's why, you know, oftentimes, even we have to admit, even as preachers, it's like, well, I know that the tribe will listen more closely if I quote this person and not that person, even though both people are godly individuals. We tend to lean towards, you know, the whatever tribe you find yourself a part of. I know that I will be accepted in this tribe, feel safe in this tribe if I quote these people, follow these people, et cetera, et cetera.

SPEAKER_03 15:55

Charles Purgeon spoke about that.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

He's a safety catch-all, isn't he? Yeah, so it's a W Toza.

SPEAKER_02 16:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that that's that that's really good to remember.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

I think Easy, is that why you became a Crip? To To fit in, to find a club that a group of people where you would be accepted.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm at a school that was kind of divided where you had the the jocks, you had the Crips, you had the um the Mexican gang. Or the bloods that you're there were no bloods there, but but yeah, I mean those scenarios.

SPEAKER_03 16:32

Were they New York?

SPEAKER_02 16:32

Bloods. You have bloods out here too.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

You also had the sharks and the jets. Yeah, and the potatoes.

Tribalism, Echo Chambers, And Approval

SPEAKER_03 16:39

Yeah, that was a page.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

Um so yeah, so it was a it was an issue of of wanting to belong, you know, and um and it kind of went along with the you know rap life that I had.

SPEAKER_03 16:52

So where does peer group peg group pressure come? Is that the same thing or is it different? Peg group pressure. Yeah, peer peer P-E-E-R.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Peer group pressure. Yes. Sorry to translate for those. Uh peer group pressure. Yeah, very similar. It's tribalistic. We need to feel accepted uh and protected in a tribe. It's not entirely a bad thing, right? Like if you're part of a tribe that's headed in the right direction, it helps you navigate the world around you that's constantly changing. It can become a bad thing if it becomes an echo chamber, or to the conversation we're having right now when we simply virtue signal for simply for the sake of earning points in the tribe that we're a part of rather than thinking deeply and actually taking action. I mean, I think the prime example of the Pharisees. I think we can be very phariseutical. Per se. Thank you so much. I just made fun of you for not being able to use words. Conform to the tribe, Oscar. Yeah, my bad. We can act like Pharisees when we virtue signal in a Christian context because we haven't allowed the word of God to actually impact our hearts. We're simply just virtue signaling to be tribalistic.

SPEAKER_03 18:05

So it's a hypocrisy. Yeah, absolutely. So we can drop all this virtual signaling to say hypocrite.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

I mean, we're very territorial in this as well, right? I mean, it's okay for you to say that you're watching Fox News, but you can't say that you're watching CNN. Right? The moment you say that you're watching MSNBC, it's like we we know in the way there's something wrong with you. There is something wrong with you if you did that. But the first thing I do after I check out one of the news sources, I go to the other news source. Yeah, not realizing that both news sources are owned by the same, right? But it, I mean, it really it's the way it is. But uh, how dare you watch anything other than what I watch? Right? Ray, Ray's speaking at an event, you know, up in Washington, and uh they they created a poster of it. I go, yeah, this is great that Ray is speaking, Ray's reaching different people. And people are coming unglued that certain people are speaking there, and it's not like there's people that are innately horrible speaking, but they don't belong to our tribe. Right, there you go. And because they don't belong to our tribe, maybe you don't belong to our tribe.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

That's that's key because tribalism, what it what it does is it makes you again feel safe. And we tend to gather around us the people that affirm us. And so when someone is perceived as a compromiser because they're either nuanced in their view or they're trying to be careful and find balance or trying to seek truth in spite of tribe, then they're seen as compromising. You don't even need to say they're wrong, you simply simply need to label them as compromising or too soft, and then they're sort of on the out of the tribe.

SPEAKER_03 20:11

The Nike tribe. My son, Jay Daniel, sorry, not Jake. Daniel, when he was 20, wore Nikes. And then suddenly, just after he got married, I saw him in$20 sneakers. I said, What's going on? He says, I don't care what I wear. And I thought he's grown up. There you go. He's not he's no longer part of the tribe or needs to be part of the tribe. And I think that's just so great where you can choose your own fashion and not care what people think.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Man, it's so ingrained, isn't it? Like it's so I think. Think deeply rooted in us that it's our default way. Like we're not thinking, okay, I'm gonna start doing this. It's just like that's kind of the natural bent. And I think part of the fallen nature, you know, look, there's a balance, but there's a difference rather between being a rebel for rebellion's, you know, sake and preach my heart. Yeah, and then being, you know, being like someone who's just genuine, you know, like I and I I've tried to instill this in my kids. Like, look, you were just saying yesterday you really like this outfit you got. Why today are you like hesitant? Well, because your friends are like maybe saying something about it, or you so it's it's really weird. Oh, raise glasses. I didn't wear my bono glasses.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

You know, I remember we I got we received a one-star review for the podcast for one reason because I quoted Sam Storms. No, how dare I quote somebody that we don't agree all agree with? Craziness. Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 21:45

You know, I was I was talking, uh I was talking to uh our pastor actually recently, and he mentioned how if if um others quoted whom he quotes, they would be like kind of they wouldn't be welcomed within a certain circle. And again, look, there's again a balance, right? We we're not we don't want to quote heretics as if though they're great, uh, but there are times when maybe someone who may not fully conform to our secondary, tertiary, doctrinal views said something profound and we quote it, you know. Um, there are some that just nope, you can't do that, and it's like this intensity, and and so there's that struggle. I love our pastor for that fact that he just says, I'm gonna do it. You know, like I have a I have a liberty to do that. I know I am doing it, and if others don't agree, look, I'm not, it's not like I don't care what you say, but I'm gonna graciously explain why and then I'm gonna keep moving forward. There's something about that that to me rings with freedom.

SPEAKER_03 22:44

Like you're free. And strength of character. Yeah.

Hypocrisy, Quoting, And Digital Shepherds

SPEAKER_02 22:47

You know who you are, you know your convictions, and and you know what you're called to do. So I think I think Mark, you mentioned it earlier. I think there is that aspect of that hypocrisy. Alright, you you said hypocrisy, but I think there's that other aspect of acceptance and and wanting wanting to please man. Uh, and and I think you know, Jesus spoke to that, right? Matthew 6, 1. Don't practice your righteousness before men to be seen by them. And that even has a flip side because what let your light so shine among men that they may see your good works. But what's what's the kicker? And glorify your father who's in heaven. I think the other the other vice there is glorify me. Think this of me, you know. So, but it's it's it is messy, isn't it, Oscar? It's tricky in in one sense, like because you don't want to offend unnecessarily, and you don't want to give the wrong idea, but at the same time, we want to do what we're convinced is right or what we're convicted of doing.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Yeah. I think here's a good way of summarizing it, which is that we need to value virtue over vibes. We tend to gravitate towards vibes. Uh and I like your cool way of talking about it. Thank you so much. The vibeage just beautifies. But I mean, you know, we talked about posting versus like we the value of living averse versus posting averse. It's it's so easy for us to quote our favorite theologian without actually reading the book, without actually allowing the truths that that theologian or the or God's word, especially God's word has in our lives and our hearts. And I think it actually starts with like those air quote social media influencers, because so often we, you know, the the social media influencer is chasing the algorithm. I know to post this amount of times and this amount of days, and they're posting, they're posting stuff that they've not even read. They're posting stuff that hasn't actually dug into their own hearts and created the kind of character and virtue, actual virtue, not just vibes, actual virtue that Christians need to live out. They're disconnected from reality. Here's the best example I have of quoting so often books that you don't actually read. It's like wearing an I voted sticker without actually voting. There's no substance behind wearing the sticker. You're just doing it so that you get to the applause of other people, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:11

I mean, that isn't that kind of a broad stroke there. I mean, can't somebody find a quote and just go, that's a great quote. I want to share that with people.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

Totally. There's a balance. There's a balance. I think there's a difference be between being wowed by a quote and and having value in it. And again, there's a difference.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

Or maybe acting like you've read the book.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Perhaps getting a teacher saying, I read the book. But I also think there's again, it's like a one-off, right? Like, there's is that the total substance of what you're doing online versus like, no, actually, I'm thinking through this stuff and I value it. Or this quote that I found is fascinating. And so therefore, I'm going to dig deeper and read the book or pursue that idea a little bit further. I think the value of it for Christian leaders or for social media influencers is that you are playing the role of a shepherd online. I'm using that term loosely because there's obviously a biblical version of Shepherd, which is the local church pastor, but you are, in a sense, playing the role of digital influencing shepherd online. And again, it's like, you know, you would never, I hope, give medical or tax advice without actually having the important, you know, uh uh education and credentials to do that. You wouldn't lead people astray in that way. And yet, so many of us are willing to give shallow spiritual advice. And I mean, I think about Ezekiel 34, which is there's these false shepherds of Israel who are looking like leaders, but aren't actually caring for the flock. And that's what we do when we virtue signal in the way that we do online for the sake of engagement and likes and follows. And so the ultimate takeaway here is I think that we all need to value deep spiritual thoughtfulness, deep spiritual engagement. Because just to use one other metaphor here, and I know the golden rule of not switching metaphors, I'm definitely breaking it. But when we perceive, when we give this perception that we have deep thoughtfulness, we're inviting people to dive headfirst into the shallowness of the pool. We need depth, we need leaders who care more about virtue than vibes. I think it's, I think we we just we simply like that. And we've seen it, like we've all talked about that guy who's online, who has a mass following, has never been discipled, who wouldn't qualify as an elder in his local church, but qualifies to have a million followers. That's the that's a problem. It's vibe over virtue.

SPEAKER_05 27:57

Yeah, big problem.

Pride, Power, And Inner Transformation

SPEAKER_02 27:59

Yeah, and you know, you think about what comes out of that or what's connected to that. I mean, Luke 18, you guys know Jesus talked there about uh the the Pharisee versus the tax collector. But I like how he started out. He said also he spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others. Oh man. Like I I've never really honed in on that. It's usually, you know, the fact of you know, this guy was, you know, doing this, the other was doing that. But like what's behind that is is this element of trusting in yourself. Yeah, I hate that guy. Oh, I can't stand him. He's so ugly. And that they were trusting in themselves that they're righteous, but but it it goes beyond that. It's not just, oh, well, I'm righteous. It's and look at them. You know, it's this like it's this um condescension. Yeah, this condescension and this lack of maturity that says, you know, maybe they don't get that, maybe they don't understand that, maybe uh they they, you know, have had certain circumstances that led them in that direction. And you enter their world, like again, you want to influence, you want to impact. But I think this kind of mindset and attitude, this virtue signaling, let me appear this way and that way to others, uh, overlooks people. It's just I have my agenda, I want to look this way, I want to be accepted in these circles. And man, it is, it's prominent, you know. The world deals with it too. I mean, absolutely, you know, that's why I think you guys have seen those videos where they'll go out and they'll ask someone, like, what do you think of this politician? Oh, they're horrible. Why? Crickets, crickets, yeah. What's behind that, Mark? Why why why do people do that?

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Well, I don't know. I I think that we uh we we hang out in echo chambers, right? And because we hang out in echo chambers, echo, echo, echo, echo chambers, we end up only listening to the people that we are supposed to or that we are allowed to listen to. When pressed, I I don't think a lot of people give it too much thought as to well why they believe what they believe, right? And I think what I've seen a couple recently, like Trump is uh is a horrific person. And quote you on that. And then they say, uh, well, what has he done that is so wrong? And then most people can't say, I mean, I can give you a couple things that he's done wrong, but I but most people can't. Um, and it's been recognized that people like Soros has paid people to uh uh pace back and forth at these parades with their picket signs, and they're paid to be dissenters of people that uh um yeah. I mean, so I I to answer your question directly, I I don't know. I I think that uh many people have their different reasons, but um, I think that people are part of cliques and clubs just the same way you and I are. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

I will say, because I I kind of went on a rant here, but let me turn it back on myself. I'm guilty of this too. Like I recognize that when I'm reading my devotional in the morning or when I'm reading a book at night in bed, I will find a quote and go, oh, the first thing I think is like, oh man, I'm gonna use that in a sermon or I'm gonna use that on the podcast. And I in that moment I have to stop and go, no, no, no, no, no. Why is this impacting my heart? This needs to be about me and the Lord right now before it's about me and how I can quote it later on. It needs to take, it's truth needs to infuse my own heart and change. And the scripture talks about this. Like so often it talks about the inner man, the secret place. You know, Psalm 51, behold, you delight in truth in the inward being, and you teach wisdom in the secret heart. That's internal. That it, in other words, God's truth has to do a work in me before I do a work in the world. And when I'm reading, I'm just confessing, when I'm reading, oftentimes my mind goes to, let me remember this so that I can make an impact, so I can make an impact in the world. And I have to force myself to stop and go, no, no, no, no. What do you what do you need to do in me right now with this thing?

SPEAKER_02 32:12

I I think it's fair to say that this coincides with the cleansing of the outside of the cup rather than cleaning the inside first. I mean, individually as believers, like, you know, let me really take a look within. Ray, how do how do we do that? Like, how do we really explore our inner being uh and and make sure that we're really walking up properly? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:38

Well the the what comes to mind is when you say that is uh certain portions of scripture just thrill my heart. I get heartburn. One of them is uh Rotomaeus. That's one. And I I am.

unknown 32:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:51

Abraham was I am. It's a whole stack. Another one that thrills me, and there's about four or five hundred portions of scripture that thrill me like this, is where that woman had an issue of blood and she went to touch Jesus, and Jesus said, Who touch me? And you think, and the the disciples is what is this comfort paraphrase, what are you talking about? The whole crowd is reaching in to touch you. And Jesus, no, no. He says, I perceive, and this is the King James Version, virtue has gone out of me. So good. You know, that's not an ordinary man that perceives virtue. Um modern translations use the word power, that's anonymous, power and virtue. But God's virtue is power, his goodness is power. You stand in the goodness of God, it will kill you. That's what God said to Moses. I'll hide you in the cleft of the rock. And he said, I'll let my goodness pass you by. Tied up in that goodness is righteousness, power, justice, truth, all in God's goodness. And I've got a tadpole in my throat trying to evolve into a frog. Try to drown it.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

Drown it, try to drown it, drown it.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

Here we go.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

Yeah.

Slow Art, Screens, And Real Strawberries

SPEAKER_03 33:55

Did it work? Now I need a special cup for my misblush. So anyway, that thrills me that virtue flowed out of him. And that's the character of God: virtue, righteousness, holiness, justice, truth, and that power that comes with it. Because justice always demands satisfaction. And that's what that's why his wrath abides upon this whole world because of sin. It pulls the justice out of God to make sure that uh equity is satisfied.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

Yeah, I think, Mark, you um you mentioned this in in the last podcast. Uh I can't remember what it was. Man, it was right. Let's cut to an advertisement.

SPEAKER_05 34:37

Oh, how did it be?

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Yeah. In the midst of thinking it and saying it, it was jet lag.

SPEAKER_03 34:44

It is.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

That's what I blame. It's jet lag.

SPEAKER_03 34:48

Yeah. Yeah. I get it, I get it all the time. It's horrible.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

Um but yeah, it it's it's that element of you know, wanting to appear a certain way because of what we fear are the consequences if we don't. You know, and and trying to detach from that, trying to be in a place where we're really concerned about what the Lord thinks. I mean, if we can get there, I care about what God thinks. You know, remember it was, I think Paul Tripp that says nothing, there's nothing that can be uncovered about you that hasn't already been covered by the blood of Christ. Oh, that's good. You know, and and it's remembering that. It's it's just being able to be humble and meek and just say, look, are you there yet? Oh, I've been there for a while. Humble and meek and very unique. Yeah, but no, it's it's uh I'm so far from there and I'm I'm convicted over that, but I really that's evidence that you are. Yeah, I I you're humble, right? Yeah, thank you. No, I'm not. There's no there's no way, you know, of of uh of getting you know getting to that place um without truly desiring what the Lord wants.

SPEAKER_03 36:10

Is that what you forgot? You remembered it?

SPEAKER_02 36:11

No, so it was so unique and beautiful and cute. You said it at the in the last podcast, Mark. Yeah, it was no idea what it was. Yeah, I know. You have no idea. John Piper said this He said, the essence of hypocrisy is being satisfied with the appearance of virtue rather than the reality of it. Who said that, Piper? Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

That hits. Did you read that book or did you just quote him?

SPEAKER_02 36:37

Did you apply it to yourself?

SPEAKER_03 36:40

Did you apply it to yourself? No. It was written for you. Piper told me.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

It's for me. You know, I you you brought up often about uh the idea of Odi Bakum and the strawberries. I wonder if you could bring that here and apply it to what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

Yeah, we were there for that sermon. That was at a shepherd's conference, and he was just talking about how, you know, he gives this whole illustration of strawberries and and how, you know, there were these people that used to eat strawberries, and they loved the taste, they enjoyed it. And then someone ends up coming up with those artificial like strawberry flavors. So it's not real, it's synthetic. And so this group of people gets accustomed to eating those and they enjoy them and they're reveling in them. And then someone brings a real strawberry to them one day and they taste it and they go, ooh, right? They're disgusted by acting as if though the real strawberry was the that was the synthetic. Right. They'd become so accustomed to to the uh you know artificial that they can't enjoy that which is really real.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

And so how do we apply that here, right? Because I think we have to Oscar's point that there is a bit of a danger that social media has brought to the picture here where we pretend to be one way when in reality we're not, right? We we only post the best pictures. We go on vacation, we take a thousand pictures, we post four. And those are the four best photos of me. And I'll throw in the scripture, the token, the token scripture in there, and I'll have the picture with my feet in the sand as I'm gonna do good ones. Um right, so it it's kind of like that where we become your flashlights on, Oscar, and your phone. How old are you? I know. Um, but we we we lose sight of the whole point and purpose of just sitting with the Lord and reading and meditating and studying and then being able to move forward, right? We if you don't, as Christians need to virtue signal because we don't need to pretend. You know, we we don't need to pretend to be something that we're not. If we can, and I've shared this with my kids, I go, you guys realize that I'm gonna let you down, right? So I'm not surprised and cut off guard when you let me down. You're gonna let me down, I'm gonna let you down. You realize that? Okay, great. We we're gonna get along great. Because we're fallen people living in a fallen world who make fallen decisions, and because that's the way it is, I've already purposed my heart that I'm I want to walk through this life with you.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Yeah, we have low expectations of you too. So you don't have to that's it.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

That's it. Your kids aren't alone, Mark.

Detaching From Phones: Small Habits

SPEAKER_00 39:21

Makato Fuji Mori in his book Art and Faith talks about redeeming slow art. What he talks about is like art these days is really fast-paced. You know, in film, like the average, the average cut is like down to like a second and a half, where like, you know, the average cut in old movies was like three and a half, four, five seconds. He talks about lovely. He talks about how our entertainment is on reels, on social media, quick paced. Uh, and and so he says, like, the beauty of slow art is being able to sit in front of a painting and let your eyes resting on it. And the more you see it, the longer you spin with it, the more that is revealed to you. Which reminds me of another thing that John Piper once said in a sermon. He probably said actually, it might have been a bug, who cares? Um, he says he had this professor, and in which, you know, they walked into the room one day, a Bible professor, and the professor has this goldfish in a um tiny little bowl sitting there. And he has each of the kids walk up and make observations of this goldfish. And so, you know, they come back and he's like, share your observations, and it's like, oh, you know, it's got two eyes. It's got fins. He says, Okay, go ahead and make another observation. They walk back up there three or four times down the line. He's like on his fifth observation. And Piper says, I was like, What else is there to see? I've seen it all. There's one goldfish. It's got two eyes and a fin. And like, what else is there to see? And he says he goes back up there. And at that point, he started to notice the beauty of its scales, how it wasn't just a goldfish, but that how the light would refract off the scales and it had multicolored variation. And so Piper says it wasn't until my fifth or sixth observation that I saw the most important and the most compelling thing. That it was food. That it was food. That's exactly right. So I think applying those two things together, Makato Fuji's Mori's view of slow art and Piper's observation of like he was referring to God's word, how we need to spend time with it. I think the more we're disconnected from screens, the more we're able to slow down. We see the world through these quick filters. You know, uh Alan Noble points out that like when we go and see a waterfall, we can't just sit there and enjoy the beauty of God's creation. The first thing that pops into our head is like, what filters should I use when I post this? And so I think that I think practically speaking, the takeaway here is we need more disconnected from screens. We need to be able to relearn what real strawberries taste like. We need to be able to relearn what it's like to take a hike and sit in front of a waterfall for a minute or two and just gaze upon the beauty of God's creation. We need to know what it's like to sit down with a book and no screen and just, especially when I say the book, I mean the capital T and the capital B book, God's word, and sit down with it and allow it to do its work in us without being distracted, without thinking about what to post, without any of the virtue signaling that comes along with those things.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Okay, wait, wait, I know you want to I don't want to move on from this for just a second.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

Let me not lose it. Let me not lose it. Go ahead, Mark.

SPEAKER_03 42:38

What is it? Easy, give us a clear more. No, no, no, go ahead. You sure?

SPEAKER_01 42:41

How so people are listening and they think that's this is great in theory, but there's a panic. Let's be honest. There's a panic if you say, Are you telling me, Oscar, that I need or I should, it's good for me, minimally speaking, to go without my phone at nighttime, an hour before bed, whatever it may be, on Saturdays? Sounds good, but there's a panic that sets him because we're so used to doom scrolling, we're so used to finding identity, we're so used to finding our comfort, we're so used to finding fill in the blank. So, where does somebody practically go to start to enjoy strawberries again? Because they take that first bite and they're not gonna enjoy it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

When they're good enough preserves, this is conflict.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

Yeah. So I think that's a really good question. I think you should start small. One, recognize that this is probably an addiction issue. Think about this. If someone says I can't wake up in the morning without having a beer, you're like you're an addict. A beer in the morning? A beer. First thing in the morning. But if someone says this is a good point, I can't wake up in the morning without grabbing my phone. Why is it not an addiction? Or a cup of coffee. Or a cup of coffee sure. Whoa. Simmer. Simmer. You got the crap. I think some people have the wherewithal to go cold turkey and start with an entire Saturday, an entire hike. I would say start small. Commit to the first 15 minutes of your day, you don't look at your phone. I dare you, Ray. 15 seconds. Even if that means you need to go get an analog clock so that you don't click your phone snooze or whatever the case. A physical Bible. Yes, exactly. You should have a physical Bible.

SPEAKER_03 44:25

No, I totally disagree with this. I start every day with an insult from Cannon.

SPEAKER_02 44:30

That's true. Okay, my turn. Before I forget. Wait, oh, did you finish your thought though? First 15 minutes of the day. No screen, just God's word. That's really good, Oscar. So here's here's what I wonder based on what we're talking here about social media. Is frequency shaping, or is it oh no. We don't know. That whole thing was just to get him to be able to do that. I think it's true. Is frequency shaping or um, send in your thought as to what you're doing? I should have listened to you and just jumped in before Oscar, right?

SPEAKER_01 45:09

But you wanted to move on to a different subject.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

No, no, this is important because my point in it is important. Is frequency shaping? Let me let me just start there, at least. I'll see if I can remember the other thing. What I mean by that is uh, oh yes, is it shaping or is it revealing or both? And here's what I mean by that. So social media gives us the opportunity to do something like virtue signal again and again and again and again. Does that shape us? In other words, like because we're constantly having opportunity or taking the opportunity to say stuff or show things, does that does that shape us? In other words, if we weren't doing that when we didn't have social media, would that would that be so much a part of our character? Or is it revealing, is it showing that that is who we really are because we have the opportunity? Because if we didn't before, it's kind of like kids, you know, oh my little Johnny who's an only child, he's wonderful, right? Until you bring other kids around, but he's hardly around other kids, so you don't see it, you know. Uh so that's what I wonder.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

Well, if your righteousness disappears when no one's watching, it's not righteousness, it's marketing, right? That we are more interested in trying to look a certain way than to be who we are in Christ. Oh, that's good. There's a danger there.

SPEAKER_02 46:26

It's like that's really good. The line, right? That um gossip is what you would never say to someone's face. Or no, gossip is what yeah, you would never say someone's face, and flattery is what you would never say behind someone's back. You know, I love that mark. It's marketing, it's not, you know, it's because you you you're only doing it to get that attention or that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

That reminds me, I read a book on marketing once, and it like the opening line is we are all master marketers of our own selves. Uh but I think what persona do you want to convey or yeah, display? I think, yeah, I I think you landed on it. I think it's it's yes and it's both. Like uh there's another guy, um uh James K.A. Smith points out that like, show me a man's habits and I will show you his heart. But also it's true that our habits shape our heart, right? And so that yeah, the habit of virtue signaling, the habit of waking up in the morning and grabbing your phone first, that is revealing your heart and it's shaping your heart. And uh, I think we all have habits. There's no doubt. Like, if you think about that, if habits are shaping hearts, then you can call a habit a personal liturgy, a personal catechism. Every single day, you are catechizing your heart with social media, with the news. So the question isn't, am I catechizing my heart? It's who or what is catechizing our heart. And that's why intentional, sought-after, fighting for habits that will shape your heart for the glory of God is so important because you're gonna fall into you're gonna fall into a habit. The question is, what habit are you falling into?

SPEAKER_02 47:59

But Ray, there is there is an element of pretension in like even that in and of itself is virtue signaling, in that um, I don't want to appear to be a virtue signaler, so I'm gonna I'm gonna buck the trend, in other words. Like, we're not suggesting that people like look shabby because oh, it's acceptable in society to look this way. I don't like it's a it's all right to like do certain things because we don't want to be a distraction.

Confession, Correction, And Humility

SPEAKER_03 48:27

Is that I think, yeah, we can lighten up as Christians and realize the liberty we have to look at our phone within 15 seconds. Ray's having none of that, Oscar. So I've been up during the night reading other things, so I get on my phone. Feel on the word.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

No, but I think there are people that have that that tendency of like, you know, it's like, what is it? Um, I don't belong to any group, you know. Oh, they're the no group people. The no group people. We're non-uns. The nuns. Yeah. So there is that. We we need to be careful of that.

SPEAKER_03 49:01

Like I was so shaped by that before I was a Christian, and I I think I got free from it when I became a Christian because when I was in my surfing mode with my buddies, I wore Levi jeans. They were huge in New Zealand. If you had Levi jeans, you were just whoa, because they were imported from America. It was a big deal. Same with what was called kids sneakers, they were a big deal, and penny t-shirts that are pocketed here. And if you had that uniform, you were just in. And so it just made you feel good that you had those things because you knew people were admiring you. Yeah, that should stop when we come to Christ, because we look for the praise of God rather than the praise of men. So amen.

SPEAKER_02 49:39

Um so the the moral of the story, though, is continue to wear deodorant. What are those?

SPEAKER_03 49:45

Yeah, they're really cool.

SPEAKER_02 49:50

So, yeah, I like I said, the moral of the story is continue to wear deodorant, please. Because seriously, there is that we do, we see people that like they're trying to not conform, but by doing that, they're they're distracting from the gospel. So I I'm I've always said, look, as Christians, we should try to fit in as much as possible within the norm, within reasonable bounds, so that we don't distract, you know, and and we don't take away from the gospel without, again, without like violating people's liberties, you know. Be all things to all people. Yeah. I mean, yeah. So this convicted me uh kind of big time. This is Francer Francer Schaefer. Francis, it's my middle name. I can't even say it right Francis Schaefer. The true mark of a Christian is not loud proclamation, but observable love. That's great. Man, you know, it's like, I love. No, just love, man. Evident fruit. You know, walk in it. Like, you know, be be that person who doesn't have to blow your bullhorn, but you just you live in such a tangible way. We all know those people that we that we admire. None of you, but you know, just the people that we know.

SPEAKER_03 51:07

Easy's talking about his mirror.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

We want to be like, yeah. Um this one's good too by Adrian Rogers. He said, A man is not holy because he shouts about sin, but because he quietly hates it in himself.

SPEAKER_00 51:21

I didn't realize this quarterback was such a theologian.

SPEAKER_02 51:24

You didn't know that?

SPEAKER_00 51:25

Adrian Rogers?

SPEAKER_02 51:26

Oh, yeah, one of the best quarterbacks ever. Guys, did you hear it? Did you guys even realize it? Yeah, but did you read the book?

SPEAKER_01 51:31

Oscar's setting up his joke. His joke is better than your quote. Listen again. A B Earl. Ooh. Tell us about A. B. Pause for just a second. Can either one of you, because I can't quote what he just said. Well, no, what he just said with about Adrian Rogers. Yeah, could you? So you can't start cheater. Can you?

SPEAKER_03 51:53

I'm thinking about A.B. Earl. You said me in the A B Earl.

SPEAKER_02 51:57

Wait, did you say you can, Mark? I can't. Oh, okay. No, but I liked it when you said it. It felt good when you heard it. I really liked it when he had a joke. Okay, let me read it again. A man is not holy because he shouts about sin, but because he quietly hates it in himself. That's what you said? Wait a minute. That's really good. I'm tweaked by this right now.

SPEAKER_03 52:19

Like, this is really we really should say quotes like that twice for us.

SPEAKER_02 52:22

Oh, we really should say it twice for us. Men need to be told thanks twice. Yeah. A B Earl, Ray, what's A B Earl about? Tell our friends.

SPEAKER_03 52:29

I can't remember the exact quote. I found by long experience the severe threatenings of the law of God have a prominent place in leading men to Christ. They must see themselves lost before they will cry for mercy. They will not escape danger until they see it. You did know it. Yeah, it was just in the memory bags. But it's A. B. Earl. But why bring it up? In the middle of Hell's Best Kept Secret, then I'd stop and say, I want you to be really honest with me. How many of you were thinking of something else when I read that quote from A. B. Earl? And almost every hand goes up.

Approval In Heaven Over Applause On Earth

SPEAKER_01 52:58

But you say you say I have an invention as a compession as well.

SPEAKER_03 53:02

Well, I wasn't listening either when I was saying it. I was thinking I was thinking of something else. Nobody's listening to me. They're all thinking of something else. That's right. I forgot about that.

SPEAKER_02 53:10

Really clever. Yeah. Let me ask you honestly, with something like that. Yeah, I was honest. Um, with something like that, is that something that you scripted and thought about beforehand, or did you just say it in a sermon and then you're like, that's good, I'm gonna use it again?

SPEAKER_03 53:24

I can't remember. And then whatever I say, I'm in trouble with pride.

SPEAKER_02 53:27

It's true. It's true. No, I've had those moments where you'll say something spontaneously and people laugh. You're like, ah, I gotta say. That'll give me virtue, yeah. That's virtue. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:40

But the thing is about humor, you're making people happy, and that makes you happy to make people happy. Yeah. No, it does. No, but if everyone booed when you said something, you wouldn't say it again. We should just start booing easy.

SPEAKER_02 53:57

Um but no, but guys, let's come on, let's camp out on that quote a little bit, right? I don't remember it. No, come on, Mark. Can you can you repeat it?

SPEAKER_01 54:07

Uh something in shadows.

SPEAKER_00 54:10

Shadows.

SPEAKER_01 54:11

No. I got it.

SPEAKER_00 54:13

A man is not bully because he shouts about sin in the world, but because he quietly sees it in his own heart?

SPEAKER_02 54:21

Hates it.

SPEAKER_00 54:22

Hates it.

SPEAKER_03 54:23

An easy heart, yeah. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_02 54:25

No, I I really I want to grow, I want to grow in in hating sin. I don't hate it enough. And I hate it in other people.

SPEAKER_03 54:34

But is is that can that be a pain within the human heart? Can we actually do that? To hate sin? Yeah, to really hate it. It's a hate love-hate relationship. Yeah. I think it's that's sorry, when you when you define what sin is, sin isn't just adultery, it's receiving uh compliment with your ego where it becomes puffed up. Little stuff like that. Did you just come up with that? Yeah, just crying, virtue.

SPEAKER_02 55:03

Signaling. You know what? Here's what I think is the barometer that I think really is an indicator that we are hating sin. It's how often we're confessing it. Yeah. There's times I I'll go, you know, I mean, I do have a portion during prayer where I do try to confess and repent, but there have been seasons where I didn't have that. And I'll stop and think, man, have I been like pausing and thinking about my sins of the day and asking the Lord for forgiveness over them? Or maybe you've just been doing really good at not sinning. Maybe. Or or better yet, you know, asking the Lord for forgiveness when I sin, identifying it and and then, you know, dealing with it right away.

SPEAKER_00 55:42

Well, just jumping back to that quarterback quote, um, I'm thinking about like practically for me, sometimes when I am listening to a sermon or what reading a book, my heart will go to, oh man, this person really needs to hear this. This people group really needs to pay attention right now. And I the the that's my first response. But then my second response, which that quote reminds me of, hopefully, not always, but hopefully, is like, whoa, whoa, wait. The Lord did not bring me to church this Sunday so that I could know better this sin in other people. This needs to be applied to my heart. Where, like, because obviously my heart is deceitful, and my heart would rather have me think, oh, remember that thing that so and so did, this, that, this, this section of the sermon, it's about them. Like, that's my heart at work. That's my sinful nature at work. And so I I have to stop and go, no, wait, hold on. Sift my heart, Lord, because before this, before I see sin in others, I need to see it in myself. How is this applicable to me right now? Where do I need to repent of this particular thing?

SPEAKER_03 56:47

You know, when you search your heart, sin is really a bottomless pit. You never really get there and say, Yeah, I've found my depravity. It's this is the bottom. It always goes further.

SPEAKER_06 56:56

Amen. Yeah, it's true.

Closing Reminders And Calls To Engage

SPEAKER_02 56:57

Well, I I really think an indicator for us in knowing where we're at when it comes to our sin and and well, more than just our sin, but how much we want to be right with the Lord. Like if there's anything that I want to define me, I I would want it to be this man wants to be right with the Lord. You know, I mean that's part and parcel with righteousness, you know, like and I so I think a big indicator is how we respond when people correct us. How we respond. That's the hardest thing in the world for me, man. Like when someone points my sin out. I and me, my immediate default is qualifications. Well, well, I did it because of the well, it's well, you know, but yeah, well, I knew, but versus like thank you. I need to deal with that. Like genuinely, like there may be a time where seriously there's something that was misunderstood, and we need to address that. So again, we don't virtue signal by appearing to be, oh, thank you, you know. But like if it was something that was genuine, like to be able to just say, Man, thanks. Or even beyond that, like to pause and say, I'm so self-deceived that even though I don't feel like I'm an heir here, I really may be. So, man, let me think about that. Yeah, I really wanna examine my heart, you know.

SPEAKER_00 58:08

Um Timothy Keller and Kathy Keller in their book on the meaning of marriage. He he has this great thing that I've applied to myself, which is like when someone approaches you specifically, your spouse approaches you with something, instead of jumping to do the defense, we have these inner lawyers that start to defend ourselves. He says, start with looking for the 1%. If they're 1% right, I have something to repent of. That's that's his beginning.

SPEAKER_02 58:35

Yeah. And then on top of that, too, what we always talk about, you know, perception is everything. Obviously, that has its limits, but like you know, I may have not intended to, but if I came across that way, I may need to make some adjustments, you know, despite what my motives were. You know, we're all gonna be tasted by this straight off. I know. And refiner's fire. David Jeremiah, I'll close with this. How does that song go?

SPEAKER_03 58:59

Yeah, Ray, can you have no, I've never heard of it? No, I don't even joke about it.

SPEAKER_02 59:05

David Jeremiah, the difference between virtue signaling and true virtue is that one seeks applause on earth, the other treasures approval in heaven. I think that's really the summation of it, right? God's approval versus man. And if we're truly clued into God's approval, it's just gonna alter the way we act. It's gonna change a lot of things that are just typical of us as people.

SPEAKER_03 59:30

Probably could be covered by walking in the fear of the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 59:32

Amen. Yeah, that's true. All right. Thank you. Well there. Oh, yeah, Ray covered. Uh what were you called, Ray, by someone? The most interesting man in the world. It's crazy. You do look crazy. All right, friends, don't forget, God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. Myth of the modern message. Don't forget to like, to subscribe, to share, as Oscar beautifully reminded us yesterday because Mark reminded us to have Oscar remind us. And don't forget, friends, your thoughts, your questions, your suggestions, and your bank account number, all at podcast at LivingWaters.com. We want to hear from you. Thank you for joining us, friends. We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast. No. Podcast. Where we have no idea what we're doing. You don't. What? I said you don't. Virtue signaling.

unknown 1:00:36

Yeah.