Ep. 372 - When God Interrupts Your Plans: How Divine Disruptions Shape Disciples

Sometimes the most loving thing God can do is interrupt our plans and reroute our expectations. Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar explore how divine disruptions are not accidents or setbacks but intentional moments in which God breaks into ordinary life to accomplish eternal purposes. The guys explain that trials and detours are not problems to escape but pathways God uses to shape trust, deepen faith, and redirect hearts. Ray shares how his own salvation was an unplanned interruption, reminding listeners that without Christ, humanity remains helpless and lost. Yet, God steps in at the precise moment to change everything.

The guys reflect on how Scripture reframes interruptions as invitations rather than inconveniences. Drawing from the life of Jesus, they note that even when Christ sought rest, He responded to interruptions with compassion and obedience to the Father’s will. E.Z. shares how unmet expectations challenged him to examine whether his worship depended on outcomes or on trust in God’s character. The guys emphasize that God is not punishing His people in these moments but positioning them, and that believers often misunderstand their relationship with God as contractual instead of covenantal. True devotion flows from trusting that God directs every step, even when plans unravel.

They move on to the reality that what feels like disruption is often providence unfolding. The guys highlight biblical examples such as Joseph, whose life spiraled from favor to suffering before God used him to preserve many lives. They stress that believers see only a chapter while God sees the entire story. Jesus is presented as the fulfillment of every faithful figure in Scripture, the true and better Adam, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and Job. These truths are meant to lead to worship, as theology rightly understood draws hearts toward awe and surrender, especially in seasons of chaos.

Finally, the guys warn against resisting God’s interruptions, pointing to Jonah as an example of obedience delayed by bitterness. They remind listeners that idols often hide behind expected outcomes and that God’s primary work is to shape the heart, not to guarantee success. Every no from God is framed as kindness, every hardship as purposeful, and every interruption as an expression of grace. The cross itself stands as the ultimate divine disruption, reshaping eternity through suffering and redemption. The guys wrap up by calling believers to perseverance, gratitude, and trust, confident that God is for His people, too wise to be mistaken, and too good to be unkind.

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Visit the Living Waters website to learn more and to access helpful resources!
You can find helpful counseling resources at biblicalcounseling.com.
Check out The Evidence Study Bible and the Basic Training Course.

You can connect with us at podcast@livingwaters.com. We're thankful for your input!
Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro

Transcript

Setbacks As Setups For Glory

SPEAKER_07 0:00

What feels like a setback is often a setup for God's glory. The delay of our plans often means the advancement of his. And if if I'm if I'm in a place where I'm you know I'm realizing, look, this is for something greater than me. It makes me persevere with greater joy in the midst of it. I'm called to persevere either way, but it's that knowledge, it's that understanding. Like if this is if this is for God's glory, if this is for something greater, then I'll endure it. You know, I mean, look, there are times when I I've engaged in certain ministry activities that have been very tough and grueling and difficult and hard and painful. But at the end of the day, as I see people getting blessed, I mean, look, you guys understand like the warfare of ministry is intense. Ray, right went through what he went through for years, agaraphobia thing, you know. I went through that dark night of the soul I've talked about for months. But but on a regular basis, we go through a warfare that a lot of people just don't experience. There is intense spiritual warfare. And there's times where it's that feeling of like, man, it would it would be better to do anything else in ministry. Not to give a picture like it's always a misery, of course not. There's joys, but there are times when the intensity, it's it's like um it's uh concentrated to where it's it's intense, heavy, and you're like, how am I gonna get through this? You know? Uh but when you see God touching lives, and it's like, Lord, whatever you need to do with me, it's for a greater purpose. Check out our new studio, it's so spectacular, it's kind of like the lair of Dracula. Ooh. Why am I hearing myself loud in the speakers? Is this some new version of the new studio? I don't know. But guys, we're in our new digs. That's very nice. Yeah. Feels like I'm in a dream or something.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Made for comfort. It's got a sort of a homely feel to it. It does. A homeless feel? Yeah. Homeless. It's for the homeless.

SPEAKER_07 2:09

Yeah, yeah, man. This has been a long time in the in the making. I'm trying to remember how long we had our. I mean, I always called it our new studio. Four years?

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Four years? I think before years. Just before COVID, I think. 45 years sometimes.

SPEAKER_07 2:20

Remember we used to have the green screen for the comfort? We should bring that back.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

We have a green screen.

SPEAKER_07 2:25

Oh, we kind of do have it.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

And there was uh on the box before the comfort zone.

SPEAKER_07 2:30

That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:31

And it was a mortuary before that.

SPEAKER_07 2:34

Green screen.

SPEAKER_04 2:35

In the box.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

You went from in the box to on the box. Yeah, you gotta think out of the box as a Christian. That's true.

SPEAKER_07 2:40

Yeah, that's true. I love newness. The torment for me in this is I was gone while most of it was being done.

SPEAKER_04 2:45

It's kind of better, isn't it? To show up and it's done. It is kind of cool.

SPEAKER_07 2:48

Well, I saw you walk in, Oscar. Yeah, that was my first time seeing it. I thought you'd seen it. Uh-uh.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

It wouldn't have got done if you were here.

SPEAKER_07 2:55

It's true. Actually, I did, I almost threw in the whole thing because I came in and I saw like the squirrela texture, and I'm like, You thought it was wrong. I'm like, what's going on here? She's like, Oh yeah, that's how we do it. I'm like, oh, I thought it was gonna be straight and smooth, and now I'm looking at it, I'm like, oh yeah, I'm brilliant. It's really good. I'm brilliant, he says. No, brilliant, but I am brilliant. Oh, I thought you said I'm brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

No, Easy would never say that.

SPEAKER_07 3:19

No, it's humble.

SPEAKER_04 3:20

For those who can't see because you only listen to the podcast, we do record these live as a yeah, we we do record them live. We don't post them live, but record them. We are alive and we are recording. And we do post them on livingwaters.tv. And in addition to that, we have the Living Waters YouTube podcast channel. You can go there and see clips, and soon you will be able to see our brand new studio.

Bible Bee: Scripture Memory And Impact

SPEAKER_07 3:44

That's called a timely plug, Oscar. Fitting and right in the right spot. A TP. I like it. Timely plug. Yeah. So anyway, I love this. We hope you all appreciate it. Uh, whether you do or not. What style is this? Yeah. Doesn't really matter, actually. Is this modern? Modern. Everything's modern. Uh modern and clean, the way I like it. Just a little mid-century. Yeah. So um buzz. Buzzy buzzy. Buzz. Does that help you guys guess where I just was? Oh. Beef. The Bible B, the Bible B. I love the Bible B. It loves me. Yeah, this was my 11th competition.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

So you better explain what it is. You are the host.

SPEAKER_07 4:25

Yeah, so I'm the MC. Host, moderator, and uh national spokesman.

SPEAKER_04 4:29

And be clear, 11 competitions, and you've won zero of them. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

I watched a bit of it and I can't believe it's not bigger than what it is. It's just wonderful.

SPEAKER_07 4:38

Yeah. No, I mean it's grown exponentially over the years.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

I groaned when I saw you.

SPEAKER_07 4:44

Yeah. Yeah. So um yeah, it's I called it this year. It's funny when when I was hosting, I called it the uh the Humble Me National Bible decompetition because you know, I scripture memory is a passion of mine, but I I I can't even hold a hold a match to these kids. Yeah. A thousand people are you being serious.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Is that hyperbole? No, no, no.

SPEAKER_07 5:06

Mark. Okay, I've memorized 14 books of the New Testament, which is you know half or a little more than half the New Testament, but that's about a thousand verses combined. These kids, the senior level, they're memorizing about a thousand verses in the course of a summer. Three months. That's crazy. And then they're standing on a stage in front of the world, a room full of people, and they're they're they're getting references thrown on them on the spot.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

So how do they do that? How do you do that in a summer? Because it's taking you what?

SPEAKER_07 5:33

Well, most of them are homeschooled. So, you know, they they chained them to the heaters pretty much. But no, I mean, these kids are putting in time, you know, all through the day. They're staying up at night, you know.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

They're I mean Is it 650 verses they're gonna be asked? Is that or something?

SPEAKER_07 5:47

No, the the senior level is about a thousand. Really? So it's like a hundred and five passages, but within those passages, I mean some of them are like 15-20 verses. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Do you think anybody cheats and starts memorizing now for next year?

SPEAKER_07 5:58

They they don't know what the passages are. I mean, just memorizing the Bible. The whole Bible.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

I'd be memorizing the page numbers. Yeah. I've got up to a thousand. I'd have a little earpiece. Yeah. Yeah. What's amazing.

SPEAKER_07 6:09

I just was gonna say, you know, the amazing thing is is how many of these kids end up getting saved? Yeah. I mean, they're growing up in Christian homes. They weren't when they started. Some of them aren't. No, I mean they're grown up in Christian homes, and you know, they have the primary level, they're starting at like, I think, seven. Yeah. So they're they're they're interfacing with the word and testimonies of like this changed my life. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_04 6:28

I was gonna say what's amazing is some of these kids set out to win a competition, but memorizing a thousand verses, that's gonna that that embeds itself into their hearts for the rest of their lives. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_07 6:40

One of the parents, you know, after their their children won, and look, this is no joke, like the grand prize is fifty thousand dollars. Used to be a hundred thousand. One year a kid he was in the in the junior level, it was fifty, he won it. Aged out the next year he was in seniors, won it. So 150,000 within one year. Imagine you're like 14, you have 150 grand, you know. What a way to start. He rolled up in a Ferrari on the next one. Oh no, John 14, six, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

That's uh an incentive, though, to learn.

SPEAKER_07 7:12

Yeah, well, it's it's amazing. But you know, you do you see from the spirit of the kids, it's not really about the money for them. Of course not. They don't want the back. Money, no, no. Oh, I'll give it to me, yeah. So yeah, anyway, it was great. But there's another buzz. It's funny, the day after I get back, I go to a coffee shop called Better Buzz. Have you heard of it, Oscar? Oh, look at oh, the snobbery. I didn't snob. He just answered your question. I just said better buzz immediately. What's that mean?

SPEAKER_01 7:41

First name had something in my ear. He walks in the regular changing subject slightly, but shouldn't you tell people where they could see the Bible bee online?

Prizes, Motives, And Faith Formation

SPEAKER_07 7:50

Oh, yeah, uh, BibleBe.org, BibleBe.org. You know, some of our videos. One video that we that we did has like 24 million views. Whoa, wow. Yeah, I mean, these kids, because you know, they take snippets and they make little shorts. And so yeah, Biblebee.org, get your kids involved, friends. Um they'll be blessed. There's some on Living Waters TV too, isn't there?

SPEAKER_04 8:10

Didn't we put some up?

SPEAKER_07 8:11

Oh, you're right. You can check it out on Living Waters TV too.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Yeah, you too could have your kids make 150 grand. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 8:18

Uh Better Buzz, Oscar. Why are you so uh self-righteous?

SPEAKER_04 8:21

No, I'm not. What how was your experience at Better Buzz?

SPEAKER_07 8:24

Um, the caramel latte. Caramel was it? Caramel uh vanilla latte. The lady said, Oh, you should try that, and it was really good. Julia and I went and hung out. You remember Mark with the old um Carl Jr. on Imperial and Railroad.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Oh, that's right. Yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_07 8:39

It's huge. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

We're giving them a shout-out. Are they are you getting paid somehow secretly?

SPEAKER_07 8:44

I should. I should get paid with that. Anyway, friends, uh all that good stuff. Look, I gotta say, I'm in shock. I heard about all these gifts we got. I walk into Oscar's office. He didn't volunteer, but we just store them all off. That's usually what happens. Oscar's like, um, can we please move these somewhere? Anyway, I cannot believe these dear friends of the ministry, um, Michelle Allimers uh from Lawrence. Michelle Imers and Lawrence. The only thing they asked was that we'd say their names. Get their names right, yeah. And so, but they won't pick.

SPEAKER_04 9:20

They sent us all these things. Look at you guys talk while I bring them. You guys, it was like what it would be like to have Elon Musk as a dad on Christmas morning. Yeah. You walked in, there was just boxes everywhere. It was crazy.

unknown 9:31

That's right. Look at this.

SPEAKER_07 9:33

You got this here. It's uh like a chair, some kind of massage chair. It works. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

You had you already got mine going. Yeah.

unknown 9:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 9:41

And then we got all this stuff. Look at this, Oscar. What is this stuff you said, this is like a muscle relaxing? Lawrence and Michelle Elmers. You won't need that. Lawrence and Michelle Imers, I think. No, Imers, yeah. This is a really, really hot spine. Yeah. Portable, portable neck fan. Yeah. Um and this uh what is this, Oscar? You're saying it's like a like a. You've never used one of these?

SPEAKER_04 10:06

Yeah, massage guns. I love these. That works too. Yeah. Yeah. I broke mine a few years ago, so this is.

SPEAKER_07 10:11

I've been cleaning my teeth with them. Yeah. And then this thing, like a neck uh massager. And then like a pillow or something. You guys know what this is?

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Yeah, I'm sitting on one now. Are you really? I'll have four.

SPEAKER_07 10:22

I'll take yours. I'll take one. Anyway.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

I think these people think we're sick.

SPEAKER_07 10:29

But friends, thank you so much. Truly. Um, Michelle. Oh, wait, no, I have it here. Um Lawrence and Michelle Imer. Sorry, there wasn't different names.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

There's some more stuff than that. No, there's more, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 10:40

I couldn't even bring it all in. No, that's in a truck.

Coffee Chats, Community, And Listener Mail

SPEAKER_04 10:43

But we also tried to reach out to them to say thank you, and we don't have contact information. So I don't know if that's on purpose. But yeah. Maybe if you if if you're listening to this, you can email us at podcast at livingwaters.com. We would just love to say say thank you in a personal way.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 11:00

What a blessing.

SPEAKER_07 11:01

Merci beaucoup. You guys need to learn French, like Mark, who learned it with me, but never learned a thing. How many years, Mark?

SPEAKER_01 11:08

I took four, maybe five? I took three. Yeah. Waste of time. I did. I took three years French at the end. They said this can't be understood in France. It's just a word. School English. And I didn't use it until I saw some um French soldiers, soldiers here walking past me, and I said pass the salt as they went past.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

My professor kept saying, Femme la bouche. Femme la bouche.

unknown 11:34

Shut your face.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Yeah, shut your mouth. I had to look it up. Finally caught it.

SPEAKER_06 11:38

All right, France.

SPEAKER_07 11:40

Time for a cool, classy comment. This is from uh Dinelli Pirate. Dinelli Pirate. And uh the subject says feet beautiful question marks. Thank you, Ray. Easy mark and Oscar. I grew up in a church that taught the prosperity gospel, which in turn soured my view of God. Deep down I knew there had to be more. Visiting various churches led me to the YouTube and podcast with Ray. Comfort. Needless to say, it changed my life. So much more I could say, but I will keep this short. I have three young boys who now listen to the podcast and enjoy the freedom of the gospel and loving others through the glory of God. My prayers for our family have turned from a selfish nature to a genuine cry for the lost. I carry your tracts and found ways to serve others just to have the opportunity to share Jesus. When your team comes to mind, my heart sings. How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace who bring glad tidings of good things. That's awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much, dear friend. I doubt your name is really Danelli Pirate, but uh thank you nonetheless. Very encouraging.

SPEAKER_06 13:14

All right, friends, and now a radically revolutionary resource. This podcast is brought to you by tough questions, apologetics made simple.

SPEAKER_07 13:22

You guys remember when we recorded that? I do in the coffee shop. Coffee shop. Yeah, you weren't there on purpose. Um, I don't know. Was Oscar were you with the ministry? Yeah, yeah, definitely. It was a long time ago. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Oh you weren't as important then as you are now.

SPEAKER_07 13:37

I'm still not that important. Oscar has climbed the ladder. Um, yeah, so anyway, five sessions, about 25 minutes each, and uh, you get a study guide, you get 400 gospel tracks, promotional videos, etc. etc. It's also available on MP4 uh digital.

Theme Launch: God Interrupts Our Plans

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Well simple questions with tough answers, etc. What? Simple questions with tough answers. What was that? Huh? Huh? You like it?

SPEAKER_06 14:01

So check it out, friends. Don't forget the Living Waters monk, never study Bible, Living Waters TV, all that Living Waters. Ooh.

SPEAKER_07 14:09

Look at how quickly the brain works. Like Oscar, I mean an Indian accent. I have never done an Indian accent before.

SPEAKER_04 14:16

Years of listening to you.

SPEAKER_07 14:19

It's one of my favorite accents. And friends, don't forget the podcast YouTube channel, and all tens of thousands of subscribers. Get us to billions, please. All right, guys. Today, when God interrupts our plans, how divine disruptions shape disciples. Pretty spiffy title. Oh, yeah. You have to read it six times to figure what's going on. When God interrupts your plans. I mean, come on, we can all relate. Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

You know, sometimes the most loving thing that God can do is interrupt your plans. You know, it's been said if you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans for the day.

SPEAKER_07 15:00

That's one of my favorite sayings, man.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

This is what I got going on today, Lord. No, here it is. Bless it. Right? But no, think about it. The most loving thing that God can do is interrupt your day and even in your eyes, perhaps even sour your day, right? Jonah, did he plan on going into uh the belly of a big fish? Think of the disciples. Was the cross part of their ultimate goal that was inside their mind? Mary didn't wake up saying, Hey, you know what? I'm going to uh have uh the Messiah, you know, come inside of my womb today. You know, God's interruptions are the most loving thing that God can do inside of our life.

SPEAKER_04 15:39

Even Jesus in Matthew 14, right? Like he's he's tired, he goes on a boat to get away from the crowds. He's expecting to have like a day to himself. He gets to the other side and there's a crowd of people. And I love the response you preach on this often. I love the response from Jesus. He wasn't like, oh, come on, I wanted this time, or he didn't turn the boat around to look for another shore. He responded with compassion. Yeah, because in his heart he knew this is what the Lord, my father, has for me. Amen.

Jesus’ Compassion And Honoring Detours

SPEAKER_00 16:08

I think it's one of the greatest ways to honor God is to honor that detour. I mean, do you do you really trust the Lord? Do you really have faith in God? How do you handle that trial inside your life, right? Because we've often said that there's no issues in our lives, they're just stepping stones to get us to where we need to be. And we think, well, no, the straightest, the quickest way between two places is a straight line, and God says, step, step, step, step back over here, step over here, step over there. And it makes no sense, but then how do you handle that detour? And you're able to see how how great somebody's faith is, how and how they handle those detours that look like discouragement.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

It's relevant you mentioned the word faith. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding. Yeah. To D.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Yeah, back to KK.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

But I I think the ultimate disruption is our salvation. There's a time I just can't get past this. Yeah. Um there's a time when I wasn't seeking God, even slightly. And the book of Romans says there's none that seek after God, but God sought after me. He thundered his voice and separated me from this world with his lightning. And uh I am forever grateful beyond words.

SPEAKER_07 17:27

Um Ray, I just want to say real quick, you earlier you were showing us uh photos. You showed us a photo of the the night before you got saved, was it? Yes. Yeah. And just looking at that, you you had your plans. You're going on a surfing trip with your buddies, and who knows what you're planning and what you were gonna do. But yeah, divine interruptions. You know, God entered in. You think about that. I was talking to someone recently that was saying how someone shared the gospel with them, uh, and you know, said you need to, you know, give your life to Christ. And he goes, No way. He said, That will ruin my life. Are you kidding me? You know, but it's like the the day we all got saved, I wasn't planning it. I was going to the thing with my friend. I know I was mad, I was got in a fight with my mom, I wanted to go drink. I and then boom, divine interruption, the whole course of my entire life changed forever.

Salvation As The Ultimate Interruption

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Once you know, we we often joke about um what would have happened without that disruption. Easy would be a rich and famous rap artist. Oscar would be Professor Oscar Navarra, the new Richard Dawkins, best-selling author and lecturer at Ivy League. Ivy League universities. Mark would be a household name with multiple Super Bowl rings, and I'd be in jail. You would, right? I absolutely would for counterfeiting millions and millions of dollars. That's the easiest seriously, the easiest way to make money is to counterfeit, especially with modern technology. And that I'm so glad God took me out of darkness and brought me into the light. But um, speaking of that, which is the coolest way to change the subject without being rude. I used it yesterday over lunch when someone was saying something, I said, speaking of that and just change the subject while we're on that subject. It always works. And you can use it while witnessing someone. Speaking of that. No. Yeah. Seriously, someone can be saying, uh, I'm an atheist as a rock. Speaking of that, yeah, do you think you're a good person? You just in its segues there without being rude. Anyway, World Cup's coming up. I have a propensity to create million-dollar bills. I can't help it. We've done dozens of them. The World Cup is the biggest spectator uh event in American history. It's coming up, and we've got to be prepared for it. We just did one with the Beatles.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

And that's not going to die. We had two million printed, I think. And I just heard today, New York Times, someone said uh Ringo Star's going on a tour next year. So that keeps the Beatles million alive. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 19:48

And he's a What's he just do a drumming drumming concert the whole time?

SPEAKER_01 19:53

He does. He does sing, he did write songs, and he still has a big fan base. But uh so um yeah, I've got this propensity to make millions.

SPEAKER_07 20:01

Yeah, Ray. Seriously.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

And and um seriously, I shudder to think where I'd be now without Jesus interrupting my life. Oh wow. Um I'd be rich and successful, hopeless and helpless, sitting in the shadow of death, heading for hell. And what a what a horror beyond words to be rich, hopeless and helpless before death. Oh man. I don't know if you've noticed how many rockers are dying. Do you watch the news? See the news on online? Who's uh so many people from the sixties are all just dying, one after the other, just like flies, going like that. And it must be frightening for so many people. I remember when Michael Jackson died. Wait, what happened? Spoiler alert. And the horrible thing is we've got a video of him talking about his fear of death. And yet he just up and died.

SPEAKER_07 20:43

Yeah. Well, it for me, you know, it it hits home when I mean for you, Ray. I'm sure when Paul uh John Lennon died, I mean that was huge. You grew up with him. You know, for me, Michael Jackson was like he was my my idol as a kid. So it it's it's that's that reminder that everybody's mortal.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Yeah, you know. It's a level playing field. Um, the moment we heard about that, Mark and I went to Hollywood. Oh, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

That was our first viral video. It was that we made 100 people. That hit a million, Mark? Did we get close to a million? No, I have to look it up, but it's hundreds of thousands. So viral is defined in a couple different ways, right? You you hit millions and millions, that's viral. But if Mr. Beast produced a video and it hit 10 million people, it would not be viral to him, right? So viral is in two ways larger than what you normally have, and then just in uh in the world's eyes of how big millions and millions are.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Did you just make that up?

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Yes, no, I didn't. Uh I think it was like 500,000 uh views.

SPEAKER_07 21:37

No, that was big for where our channel was back then. Yeah. Yeah.

C.S. Lewis, Lloyd‑Jones, And Providence

SPEAKER_04 21:41

Speaking of that, stubborn something. Uh yeah, speaking of that, I love C.S. Lewis's view of divine interruptions. He points out that like our ordinary life of our plans is not where we're real life happens. Actually, real life happens in the interruptions. His quote is the truth is, of course, that one calls the interruptions, the thing that one calls interruptions are precisely one's real life, the life God is sending them day by day. What one calls real life is just a phantom of your own imagination. The point is, it's like the interruptions, the unplanned things, the stuff that you didn't expect, maybe the things that frustrate you, those are actually, those are actually the spaces in which God means to work. That's actually God's plan breaking through and interrupting your silly little plan. And I love just on that note, I was reading um in preparation, I didn't even realize this. I love Dr. Martin Lloyd Jones. If you've ever listened to his sermons, read his stuff, he's a legend.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Uh I spoke at his church and did you really? Well, I was out in Westminster. I was witnessing people.

SPEAKER_04 22:51

I was an in. So uh for those who don't know, Dr. Martin Lloyd Jones is he wasn't he was a doctor and then he got saved, decided to become a pastor uh at Westminster Chapel in London. He is, he's probably not the person who started uh expositional preaching, but he's definitely the pastor who made famous expositional preaching.

SPEAKER_07 23:15

Um, he's the guy that what guys like MacArthur would look to.

SPEAKER_04 23:18

Absolutely, as an example. Yeah, yeah. You'll often hear MacArthur and and other guys reference him. Uh so at age 68 on a Friday, Dr. Martin Loden Jones was preaching his 372nd sermon through his legendary series in Romans. And he was on Romans 14, 17. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. And as he prepared that sermon, he did not get to the second part, joy in the Holy Spirit. That was going to be the next week's sermon. Between that week and the and the next week, Dr. Martin Lewin Jones went to the hospital. He got diagnosed with a sickness, he ended up having surgery. That 372nd sermon was the last sermon he ever preached. He never preached on joy in the Holy Spirit. And he says he believes that the Lord knew he didn't know enough about joy in the Holy Spirit to preach that sermon. So, in other words, in his mind, the Lord kept him from doing something he wasn't meant to do. But instead of being discouraged, he then spent the rest of his life converting those sermons into commentaries. It took 33 years. And those commentaries now are some of the most influential commentaries on Romans. So to Dr. Lloyd Jones, the interruption was God's plan. Yeah. A better plan for his life than the plan he had for himself.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Why don't you pick it up from that sermon and carry on?

SPEAKER_07 24:49

Yeah, take his place. Yeah, you know, I it comes down to Proverbs 16, 9. I know. A man plans his ways, but the Lord directs his steps. Yeah. And a saying, Mark, we've heard our pastor say time and again, in heaven, there is no panic, only plans.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Yeah, has it ever, oh yeah, it's quarantin boom. Has it ever occurred to you that nothing has occurred to God? Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 25:13

Yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Yeah, God never thinks of anything.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

That's weird.

SPEAKER_07 25:17

God never learns anything. He never discovers anything. You know, I mean it's speaking of that.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Have you ever understood how pearls are made in an oyster?

SPEAKER_07 25:27

Yeah, it's a grain of sand. It's an irritation. It's what produces the pearl.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Get out.

SPEAKER_07 25:32

Mark is my irritation.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

It's not in the Lord's instrument. You're too close. No, this is horrible. We're going to get a war.

SPEAKER_04 25:42

Is that why you call Mark the Pearl of your life?

Pearls From Irritation And Real-Life Faith

SPEAKER_07 25:45

You need a separation of. And look, I mean, we talk about all of these uh theological realities, but at the end of the day, right, we know that that theology should should lead to doxology, right? Worship, that orthodoxy should lead to orthopraxy, which means now our our our life matches that right doctrine. And at the end of the day, it comes down to how do we end up responding in the midst of chaos or changed plans, you know? And I try to freeze frame, you know, situations where things go well. And I think if it didn't go the way that I wanted it to, would I be rejoicing in the Lord? Not in the circumstance per se, because some things can be horrible, but would I rejoice in the Lord? I expect you know, I I found out that something I was hoping would happen happened. Uh something practical, right? And I'm excited. If that didn't happen, would I say, Lord, you're faithful and I'm gonna I'm not gonna lose my joy, I'm not gonna be moved from my composure, I'm gonna trust you, you know. So on this trip to the Bible bee, I uh I was sitting next to a gentleman, we struck up a conversation, shared the gospel with him, very friendly, receptive. I mean, it was a great encounter. Told him I was an author, and uh he goes, Oh, I'm gonna order your book right now. I go, Oh no, no, actually I have an extra copy in my bag, I'll get it for you. Get the bag down, give him the copy. But this was after we landed, you know. And uh, and so then, you know, I deboard the plane, getting ready to get on my other plane, and I realize I left my remarkable uh writing pad.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

That's attached to you at the hip.

SPEAKER_07 27:19

Uh I, you know, I've been journal. I've been journaling in that thing so every day for years. No, he didn't. No. Every day for years. Is it in a cloud? I've been journaling in that thing. Thank God it's in the cloud. Okay. But I I still I love this thing. I mean, it's yeah, so it's just gone. I'm like, whoa. Obviously, an idle. But I in the seat, I left it. Yeah, what happened was I left it because I brought my babket down, I gave him the book. I was just excited. I'm interacting with this guy who's open to the gospel.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

First person that's gonna read my book. I'm so excited. First person.

SPEAKER_07 27:50

So anyway, I did a I did a I did a lost and found report, and I get an email, they found it. Oh and I'm like, oh, so on my way back, my gate that I came out of was right next to where Lost and Found was, and and I and I got it. And you prayed to it, I I bowed it. I bowed to it.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

This is a Luke 15. You should call on your friends and have a party.

SPEAKER_07 28:12

Have it on your shoulders. But you know what was was great? The guy that was behind the counter was one of the kindest, friendly. He was he was like almost jumping up and down with me because they gave me they gave me a description that was different. They said a remarkable two, and and that's not what mine was, but I'm like, what are the odds? Okay, I'm gonna go anyway. At first I wasn't gonna go, and then I did. And so he brings it out. I go, yes, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

He's like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 28:35

He's like, This is in the airport. Yeah, which airport? Dallas Fort Worth, DFW.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Wait, so you went into the Dallas and then you went to your destination, and then you came to the city.

SPEAKER_07 28:42

Yeah, I had my layover and DFW connected, went to Ohio for the Bible beat, and then came back through there.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Which isn't always the case, right?

Lost Tablet, Found Trust, And Gratitude

SPEAKER_07 28:48

And it was, but the gate was right by it. It was like right there. Because first I was gonna have him ship it. I'm like, I'm not sure if it's the right one. Then I'm like, oh wait, I realized so. But what was cool is in the in the interim, I reached out to a friend who had a remarkable two, because I'm like, well, I I'm gonna get another one and see if the I said, How do you like it? He's like, he's all yeah, it's great. He's like, but you know what? To be honest with you, I don't even I don't even really use it. He's like, I'd love to give it to you. So I end up getting a remarkable two through it all, and I get my original one back. And I got to give the guy tracks behind the counter who who so we don't know what God is doing. Yeah, but but this is where I freeze frame. If I never got it back, and if all my journals were not in the cloud, I would die. Basically, I would die. I thought you were heading in a new direction. I'm thinking years and years of journaling. That's so funny. No, but but seriously, that's where I stop and say, Would I say, Lord, you're sovereign?

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Right.

SPEAKER_07 29:42

I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, my life is fine. I'm not gonna fall apart.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

And this is where Christian maturity comes in, right? Because what what do we want to say? That knee-jerk reaction is gonna get tisted. Why me? We're all gonna get tested. Why now? Haven't I faithfully served you? Uh right. What what did I do to get this? And and oftentimes, you know, God's not He's not punishing you, He's positioning you, right? That that God's putting you in a place where now you can be pliable and movable, right? Because He is the potter, we're the clay, and He is getting the kinks out, He's getting out those air bubbles. It's like when we were in um uh where were we at? Where we it was a turkey.

SPEAKER_04 30:23

Turkey.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

And we were molding that that clay, and we had a competition, yeah, right. And then like each one of us had to make like this this cup out of potting this the thing spinning. And one of us How did that go for you, Easy? One of us won.

SPEAKER_07 30:36

No, no, no. Let's talk about the pizza. How'd that go for you, Mark?

SPEAKER_00 30:39

But that's not part of the analogy here. Who won the whole thing? At that time, it was me. But Easy made this concoction on the pottery, and it was I thought it was really cool at first until he touched it. And then it began to spin. It was it was the worst thing he's ever seen in 17 years.

SPEAKER_07 30:54

17 years. I have never seen anything like this. Look, if you're not gonna be the best, be the worst. Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

But okay, but back to the point, though, right? All let's let's be serious for just a moment. Right. That we got God is not out to punish us because he punished Christ. Yeah. Right? He will correct us, he will chastise us. And it's always done in love, and it's always to position you where he can maximize the the greatest thing that he wants to do instead of you. And that is he wants to glorify himself.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

So he's positioning you for that. He'll never punish you, but he'll correct you. He'll chastise you because he loves you.

SPEAKER_04 31:33

So can I just go back to something that you mentioned earlier? It's so important because you mentioned like you're you're doing the right things, and then you're like, why not me, God? I just preached on this list last Sunday at a church in LA. Uh and I put it like this So often we treat our relationship with God as a contract and not a covenant. You see, a contract is an if then. I will do this and you will provide in this kind of way, right? That's contractual agreement. I will show up to church, I will read my Bible every morning, I will pray, I will, et cetera, et cetera, and you will bless my marriage, you will give me easy kids, you will give me a career that I like. And so often, in our heart of hearts, when the Christian looks over at their neighbor, their non-believing neighbor, and they see that they're they're driving a nicer car than you, that they seem to be going on the vacations you wish you were going on, that their marriage seems on the surface easier than theirs, that your their kids are more athletic than your kids, whatever the case. And you think to yourselves in your heart, you're like, Why not me, God? Aren't I doing the right things? That's a contract, not a covenant. A covenant is a mutual affection, and God has made a covenant with you, and he has poured out his love and he has poured out his grace towards you in forgiveness and on the cross. And the response to us is to have a covenantal devotion back to him, not a contract, a covenant.

Contracts Vs Covenants With God

SPEAKER_07 32:59

Yeah, I mean, look, in providence, there is really no such thing ultimately as an interruption. Like this is God's plan. So it's an interruption to us because we have our plans, we have our agendas, we and you think about it, right? As I've said trillions of times, expectations are the foundation for disappointment or delight. If my expectation is, oh, I'm gonna go this, James, right? I'm gonna go here, there, do this and that, make a profit. You don't know what your life holds. You don't know if you have tomorrow. You don't so it's it's that mindset of God is sovereign in control, knows what he's doing, I'm his, and he's for me. So, like you're saying, Oscar, for us as believers, there there's no there's no punishment. There, there's only there's only discipline if it's needed, but even that's for our good. So, like even when we sin, God takes it, uses it for the good, and sanctifies us.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

So, so how do we turn that that interruption and look at it as an invitation, right? An invitation to go deeper, an invitation to trust more, right? To to surrender our script you know for the day. How how do we go from that interruption to that invitation?

SPEAKER_01 34:08

I think it's to remember TGW principle. Things get worse. Often you'll pray for something and and God doesn't show up and do exactly what you want him to do. Like Lazarus. Lazarus is sick, Jesus come. Obviously, he's going to come, but he didn't. He stayed until Lazarus died. Moses at the Red Sea. God, do something, stop the enemy. It doesn't stop the enemy, it opens the Red Sea. So there's so many principles in scripture where things get worse when you pray, and God doesn't seem to be moving, but like you're saying, he's working behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_07 34:37

Yeah. I remember a story, Mark, I think I Pastor Phillips shared it, where he was talking about someone sharing a story with someone, and they said, like, yeah, my son fell off the horse and and broke his foot. And they're like, Oh, that's too bad. They're like, How do you think? How do you know? Because he broke his foot, he didn't go into the war where all his friends died. Oh, that's great. How do you know? But then and it kept going. Yeah, the scenario.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

I hit the lottery, yay, but how do you know? That's a good thing, right? And then he goes into it's part of your demise and your downtaking, right? It's like, how do you know? Well, as a Christian, what whether it's good news or bad news, and I I like to think and I like to share with my kids that there's no such thing as bad news, right? It's just interrupting news to what you were expecting, but that bad news is actually good news if you have a lofty view of God and his sovereignty, because all things are working together for our good. Not some things, not most things, not when you're feeling good, not when you had your devo in the morning, right? No, it's everything is working together for your good, and it will be for his glory.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

You know, that the beginning of that verse is, and we know that all things work together for good. And I think that's very relevant. Yeah. You know, something we should know experientially.

SPEAKER_07 35:50

Right. Yeah, Ray, I mean, I I I'm thinking of the interruption to your life in terms of moving from New Zealand to here, and in terms of your family and all that you had established there. And I mean, that was huge.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Yeah, and it was an interruption that that I I was thrilled to see happen. But when we came over here, we had three years of doing nothing. And I thought, well, what have you brought me over here for? I may have mentioned before that That's your biggest nightmare, doing nothing. Yeah, was well I made myself do things. I went to MacArthur Park and fed the the hungry and the sick, etc.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

Can of air of the block running around the block.

From Interruption To Invitation

SPEAKER_01 36:22

Yeah, did all that sort of stuff, and I was very, very frustrated. And um, I thought, what's God doing? And I remember I may have mentioned before, I I arranged a meeting while I was here. I was on a radio station and I announced it. I've got this teaching, blah, blah, blah. And we booked a uh it was in San Fernando Valley. Have I ever told you this? Probably. Yeah, probably, and you've forgotten. Yeah, I booked a meeting there on a Saturday, had a guy take me there, and no one showed up. It was wonderful.

SPEAKER_07 36:45

Oh, is that where you panic to get out? So you wouldn't be one person if you had to do the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

Said to the guy that brought me here, shut the door now, let's go. Because I didn't want one person to show up and have to give a whole two-hour teaching or whatever it was for one person. But it showed me that here's me with a bruised shoulder and swollen knuckles trying to open doors when God says I'll open them in my time. And did you have your doubts during those three years?

SPEAKER_00 37:09

No, no, should I have fun back?

SPEAKER_01 37:10

No, no, I knew what I had, but I just couldn't understand God's timing. And it's interesting it was three years because God often does things in lots of three. And to him, that's just two or three seconds. For me, it was 365 days, three times.

SPEAKER_07 37:23

You think of Kirk Cameron, the interruption he had with the annoying Mark Spence sticking a CD in his face again.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Yeah, like I often thought about that, right? I mean, you think I jumped to the front of the line. It was a long line. It was a long line of people waiting to get his autograph because he came out with Left Behind Part One. That's right. And I jumped in front, and I could imagine for a moment that person who was next in line, excited to meet Kirk, and then here I go and jump in in. But had they have known, no, this is going to lead to the proper proclamation and the use of the law, you know, with the gospel and the TV shows and everything else, the person probably would have said, go right ahead. Good point. But at that point, they're probably thinking, Who is this good looking guy who's interrupting me?

SPEAKER_01 38:07

Look, he's six foot three. If I'd been there, they would have said, Where's this hand coming up from? Oh, let the little boy pass.

SPEAKER_07 38:17

This is such a good saying. It says, We see only a chapter, God sees the whole book. Wow. That's so good. He wrote it. Yeah, right. So, I mean, you think you're reading a book, you're in a chapter, oh no, everything's falling apart. But like, he knows the whole thing. It's like, you know, you're watching a movie, you've already seen the end, you know what's gonna happen, or rugby gay. Right be game. Think about that, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:37

So Joseph, he wakes up and he's just super excited, he's got this coat of many colors, whatever it is, and then next thing you know, he's inside of a well.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

He's got a favor of his dad, too, on top of it.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Yeah, and he's like, wait a minute. And then he's sold into slavery. Gets worse. And then things don't go his way, and then he's propositioned, right? I mean, it just gets worse and worse and worse and worse, and there's famine and there's craziness. And God all the while is leading him and guiding him and directing him. Wow. No fists, only open hands.

Joseph, Romans 8, And Open Hands

SPEAKER_01 39:05

Who else blubs when they read that story? Oh, I love that. It's my favorite story. When Jov is he's revealing himself to his brothers.

SPEAKER_07 39:12

Yeah, I lose it. When I if if I'm reading it and I'm really meditating on it, I lose it. Like that moment of like, oh, I'm doing it right now. Like he broke down, you know, and he had to hide himself, you know. And um that moment, and remember it says he comforted them and spoke kindly or gently to them because they were terrified. They're like, oh no, we're dead. This is a second in command in all of I mean, imagine that moment. You saw him into slavery, this little punk, you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

I escorted iodine inside their food. You would. I'm just like, speaking of that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

I wouldn't have a drum roll every time you do it.

SPEAKER_04 39:49

You know, it's funny because we've now we've mentioned Joseph and uh we mentioned earlier someone else I can't remember, but um, I just came across, I was reminded of this quote by Timothy Keller, and I just gotta read it to you guys because all of those stories often we treat them as like Aesop's fables. For those who don't know, Aesop's fables were these one-off tales, and all of them have moral points to them. Um, be more like this, be more like that. And often we think about those Old Testament figures and we we just end with be more like, and we don't realize that they're actually foreshadows of Christ. And so Keller has this amazing quote. It's it's uh it's only like 18 minutes long, but no, it's not that long. But it is okay, so here we go. Dude, this fires me up. Read it, Oscar.

SPEAKER_03 40:32

Love it. Get it, Oscar.

SPEAKER_04 40:34

So good.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

This is honestly one of my No, the bow's too high.

Keller’s “True And Better” Flyover

SPEAKER_04 40:40

Jesus is the true and better Adam who passed his test in his garden. Jesus is the true and better better Abel who, though innocently slain, has blood that cries out, not for our condemnation, but for our acquittal. Jesus is the true and better Abraham who answered the call of God to leave all that was comfortable and familiar and go out into the void, not knowing where he went. Jesus is the true and better Isaac, who was not just offered up for his by his father on the mountain, but was truly sacrificed for us all. Jesus is the true and better Jacob who wrestled and took the blow of justice we deserved, so that we, like Jacob, receive only wounds of grace, wounds that wake us up and discipline us. Jesus is the true and better Joseph, who is seated at the right hand of the King, who forgives those who betrayed and sold him, and uses his power to save them. Jesus is the true and better Moses, who stands in the gap between the people and the Lord, who mediates the new covenant. Jesus is the true and better rock of Moses, who, struck with the rod of God's justice, now gives us water in the desert. Jesus is the true and better Job, the truly innocent sufferer, who then intercedes for and saves his foolish friends. Jesus is the true and better David, whose victory becomes his people's victory, even though they never lifted a stone to accomplish it. Jesus is the true and better better Esther, who didn't just risk losing an earthly palace, but lost the ultimate heavenly one, who didn't just risk his life but gave his life, who didn't just say, If I perish, I perish, but said, When I perish, I perish for the salvation of my people. Jesus is the true and better Jonah, who was cast out into the storm so that we can be brought in. He is the real Passover lamb, he is the true temple, the true prophet, the true priest, the true king, the true sacrifice, the true light, and the true bread.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

Oh man. Did not burn within us.

SPEAKER_07 42:49

Yeah, right? Yeah. Oh man. And the volume of the book it is written in me, you know, and that's so good. Those are the moments, those those flyovers, you know, those like kind of encapsulations of all that Christ is, they make me worship. They remind me that there's it, there's no denying that he is the Messiah, you know? And uh man, that that was beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Isn't it a good feeling to glorify the name of Jesus? You know, A. W. Toza said the only sin that Jesus ever had was ours, and the only righteousness we can ever have is his. Oh, wow. Who's that? AW Toza.

SPEAKER_07 43:28

Oh, the Toes. Don't refer. Can you send me that? Please. I'll give you a whole lot of things. Um here's another really good, a couple good sayings I came across. What feels like a setback is often a setup for God's glory. The delay of our plans often means the advancement of his. And if if I'm if I'm in a place where I'm you know, I'm realizing, look, this is for something greater than me. It makes me persevere with greater joy in the midst of it. I'm called to persevere either way, but it's that knowledge, it's that understanding. Like if this is if this is for God's glory, if this is for something greater, then I'll endure it. You know, I mean, look, there are times when I I've engaged in certain ministry activities that have been very tough and grueling and and difficult and hard and painful. But at the end of the day, as I see people getting blessed, I mean, look, you guys understand like the warfare of ministries intense. Ray, Ray went through what he went through for years, a gyerophobia thing, you know. I went through that dark night of the soul I've talked about for months. But but on a regular basis, we go through a warfare that a lot of people just don't experience. There is intense spiritual warfare. And there's times where it's that feeling of like, man, it would it would be better to do anything else in ministry. Not to give a picture like it's always misery, of course not. There's joys, but there are times when the intensity, it's it's like um it's uh concentrated to where it's it's intense, heavy, and you're like, how am I gonna get through this? You know, uh but when you see God touching lives, and it's like Lord, whatever you need to do with me, it's for a greater purpose.

Persevering Through Spiritual Warfare

SPEAKER_00 45:16

You know, we we rarely see um closed doors as God's blessings, right? We we we look at setbacks uh as a failure, right? You know, uh quickly, um you and I, you know, several years, 30 years ago, you know, we you had to have a tow truck to come and pick up uh the vehicle to work on your vehicle, and that guy was not having the best day, and you were not having the best day, and you put him in in his place, right? For for not having customer service etiquette, if you would. But we have used that situation endless amounts of times to talk about how we are to respond in sort of situations, right? In Acts 16, we have the apostle Paul, he wants to go to Asia, yeah, yeah, but the Spirit of God forbade him and did not allow him to go there. And then he wanted to go to some other place, and the Spirit of God forbid him to go there. Now it makes sense. What do I want to do here? I want to go preach the gospel. This is a great idea. Yeah, and God shut the door and opened up an entire continent, and he gets this vision of Macedonia, these people calling out for help, and he goes, All right, pivot, then what do you have? What do you want me to do? What do you want me to learn? Let's go there. If he would have, you know, raised his fist, I what do you mean? I want to go share the gospel. This has got to be spiritual warfare. This is the enemy that is doing this. But it says that the spirit, I don't know what that looks like or how he spoke or canceled flight. It would have been a canceled flight. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, and uh, but if it wasn't for that, and then Paul, he just kind of pauses for a moment, right? He doesn't try to kick open that door. Sure, you can kind of knock on it in a different way, but ultimately, all right, well, then what do you have? Yeah, then what do you want me to do, Lord? Excellent with me.

Closed Doors, Acts 16, And Pivoting

SPEAKER_07 47:05

Well, I was gonna say, like, when when we say stuff like, and I just I want to say this, like there's compassion and sympathy and understanding. I'm sure we've all done it to some degree. But when we get into the mode of, why are you letting this happen to me, God? What have I done, God? Um, well, there's a forgetfulness, first of all, of who we are. When we say me, we have to unpack that. Me is a wicked, wretched, fallen rebel against God. Um, and what have I done? What have I done? Are you serious? You okay, God's like, what have you done? Let me give you the list, right? So it's a forgetfulness that we are wretched sinners who deserve nothing less painful than hell. So anything less painful than hell then is an undeserved blessing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

We can only withhold from those who walk uprightly. If you don't have a million dollars, it's because you don't need a million dollars or you're gonna misappropriate that million dollars. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 48:01

There's also probably uh an idol behind, often an idol behind an expected outcome. Whether it's an idol of control, recognition, whatever the case. Because I think about uh, you know, you you imagine you write a book and no one reads it. Imagine Ray understands Imagine you write 150 books and no one reads them. Imagine, you know, you put everything into a relationship and it doesn't work out. Yeah. Imagine a job situation doesn't work out. The outcome was not the the the outcome of success was not the Lord's plan, but always, always the Lord's plan is what he's doing in you to shape you to be more like his son, to shape you to be more dependent on him. And so the outcome is ultimately always primarily what God is doing in you, even though you think the outcome is what he's doing through you.

SPEAKER_07 48:59

Yeah, that's so good. I want to real before this leaves my mind, I think as it relates to God, the only right response to everything is thank you. That's really right.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

Give thanks in all things, for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus. Exactly. Thank you.

SPEAKER_07 49:16

But because again, it's not just that we deserve hell and we're not getting it. It's that he's causing all things to work together for good. It's that if if we're persecuted, we're blessed. It's that if we die, we're going to heaven. It's so everything. Thank you, Lord. Oh, I just broke my leg. Thank you, Lord.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

Can you imagine having that mindset?

SPEAKER_01 49:36

That's what I want. Please. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:42

If we were to look at it like every no from God is kindness in disguise, right? Because no good thing will he withhold. He makes all things beautiful in his timing. And if we were to trust him in those situations, I would have surround ourselves with people like that, to have that mindset. The first time something negative comes in, you're just able to realign that and go, God knows.

SPEAKER_07 50:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

Through our light affliction, which is but for a moment, works for us in our far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory. It works for us, not against us. Amen. Kidney stone. Thank you, Lord.

SPEAKER_07 50:18

I did. Yeah. But Mark, you know, as you're talking about, I was just thinking, that is why I despise, detest, and abhor the prosperity gospel. Because it's a lie. Yes. It's and the whole positive confession, like superstition nonsense. I rebuke that. You know, it's it makes me mad, you know. Ray, um the interruption, the the interruption of the cross. Yeah. Like you think of the disciples. It was obviously from their perspective, interruption. They're hiding out in the upper room, they're depressed. It's like they never got what Jesus told them about him going to the cross and the purpose behind it.

Thankfulness In All Things

SPEAKER_01 51:01

Yeah, I think the gospel is the divine interruption for this world. This world is in moral darkness, it's lost. And I often think I don't think I've been outspoken enough against the wonderful plan message. Because this world is like a humanity, is is just an evil little village at the base of a massive dam of eternal justice, which is cracked. Let's go. And what does the church say to those people in that state? God has a wonderful plan for your life. And yet we should be warning every man, it may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. So um, the prosperity gospel and its bad bad fellow, the wonderful plan that God has for you, are both erroneous gospels that we really should speak out with against with more conviction. Let's go. Yeah, doesn't include it. That's exactly true.

SPEAKER_04 52:05

Yeah. I'm not over your observation that the disciples and many others were following Jesus, and they thought they were like in line with God, on his plan, on his road. They got it before anybody else. And then the cross comes and it was just to them an interruption. How could this be your plan? How could this be the way of God and bringing his kingdom on earth as it is in heaven? And yet, it's so obviously being on this side of the cross, humbly, because if I was one of the disciples, I would have, I probably wouldn't have been a disciple, but nonetheless, like you would have thought the same thing. But on this side of the cross, it's so obviously the will of the Lord. Wow.

Cross As Divine Interruption; Prosperity Critique

SPEAKER_01 52:47

That's brilliant. Ma, what you said before is even brillianter. You know, this generation needs to be interrupted. And I I uh I saw a wonderful clip someone sent me that just a little short, and it was a really nice Christian guy pleading with a girl who was pro-abortion about signing a petition to have uh puppies not aborted. And this girl's heart melted when she's when she knew this puppy was going to be aborted and ripped from the womb of the dog that was pregnant. So she signs the petition and he says, Here's another one to sign up for babies that are being able to get it. That's so good. I uh yeah, and and um the girl went, No, I don't want to sign that one. He said, Why not? And it was it was so good because she changed her mind on camera, and he turned around and went like that, as she walked off without the gospel. So I I thought, what a brilliant, what a wonderful thing. He changed her mind about abortion, but you've got to turn the horse around or it's going nowhere. You've got the back of the horse if you do that. Yeah, that's right. You turn it around, and first and foremost should be the gospel, her salvation. That's when the abortion issue will change when someone's soundly saved. So, like what Mark was saying, we apologists forget the gospel, which is the power of God to salvation.

SPEAKER_07 54:03

I was so, so bummed that we put uh the gospel in our 180 movie. I was so, so mad. Remember that he did that. There was an instant. Oh boy. Yeah. Oscar, um, what what would you say are some of the dangers uh when Christians resist God's uh redirections and interruptions, if you would.

SPEAKER_04 54:23

Well, you think of one, in in in some theological way, you can't, but you think of, I think of Jonah. The heart of Jonah is that God had clearly called him to go speak to Nineveh. And for whatever, for many reasons, we we can infer from the scripture, Jonah refuses to do that. And the journey that he goes on, the belly of the well, and finally, here's what's crazy about the story of Jonah is that finally Jonah ends up at Nineveh. He preaches the gospel to Nineveh, and the Nineveh repents, and Jonah is still bitter. People don't realize that the entire book of Jonah ends on a cliffhanger. Jonah is outside a repentant city, like angry with God, and it kind of leaves it on a cliffhanger. Are you gonna repent, Jonah, or not? And so so many of us are at a crossroads when God is interrupting our lives to be a witness to him, to go and preach the gospel to somebody, and we have the heart of Jonah in that moment.

SPEAKER_01 55:18

Well, the end of that story is he doesn't get swallowed by another whale, it was a lion.

SPEAKER_07 55:23

Yeah, you know, while I was hosting the Bible Bee, um Steve Harvey came to mind. Do you guys remember what happened with Steve Harvey Miss Universe pageant? Yes, where he accidentally announced the wrong. Oh, that's right. So he announced he announced the runner up as the winner. Oh, you never saw that on her? It was like That's crazy. It was massive news. And so what do they do? They come up, they crown the winner. No, and she's like, oh, crying. It was and then he had to come back on. I mean, that you know, confetti falling, the crowd erupting, and then he goes, uh, ladies and gentlemen, um, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I I made a mistake here. That's they had to take the crown off the one who they thought Juan could lose. It was massive. So I'm I'm thinking about this. I'm like, man, that I can't imagine that. So don't tell me you did that. So opening night, please at the B. No, it wasn't that bad. I mean, it wasn't really that crazy, but but still, the opening night, I uh, you know, I'm I did my thing, my opening thing. And then I said, and now, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome your your primary, the primary, like this, you know, seven, eight-year-olds, welcome your primary semifinalists. Everyone's clapping, I get off the stage, and then it goes quiet. And I'm like, oh no. And then I remembered, and then the the worship team came out. I was supposed to announce the worship team, pray and announce the worship team. And I thought the kids are coming in.

SPEAKER_00 56:48

No, I have your own cue cards.

SPEAKER_07 56:51

No, I do. That's but you could just somebody eat on. No, no, no. But I just totally spaced, and I just sat there, I'm like, oh, and I had a decision to make.

SPEAKER_00 56:59

Can you clip that for us?

SPEAKER_07 57:00

Yeah. I could go crawl in a hole or you know, just move forward. And so I got up and I said, Man, those were the tallest primary finalists semifinals I've ever seen. And everyone laughed, and you know, I just said, Yeah, I've only done this 11 times, you know, and it's usually the same formula.

SPEAKER_01 57:18

But you know, again, it's one of those things. It's hard for you to have an experience like that, but I have that happen every day. That's what consoles me. This is Ray's life.

SPEAKER_04 57:27

So it's not like you use the wrong name at a wedding. Oh.

SPEAKER_07 57:33

But you know, it was it's one of those things where again, like, because you guys know my perfectionism. That is one of the when I say an um, I'm I'm like disheartened.

SPEAKER_00 57:43

So wait, did you run back up there? What did you do? No, it was just too late.

SPEAKER_07 57:46

They were coming out. You just let them do, and then you got up. I, you know, I broke the ice. So the next day, you know, I I did my things and I go, and now the primary, and I go, just kidding. And you know, I you just roll with it and then you recover from it.

SPEAKER_00 57:59

Were you dying in the moment?

Jonah’s Resistance And Our Hearts

SPEAKER_07 58:00

I wanted to crawl in the hole and yeah, just never come out again. The worst ever, you know? A yelp review for the Bible being host. But again, I mean, it's those things in life. I mean, that's such a silly tiny thing, but like that, you know, we're all different, and certain things affect us different than other people. Most maybe someone would be like, oh, that doesn't bother me. No, to me, it bothers me a lot. But I have to in that moment make a decision. Like, no, Lord, you have a purpose even in that. Yeah, even in that, and I'm gonna rest in you and trust you.

SPEAKER_01 58:29

And it produces of the humility of heart to know that you're not perfect.

SPEAKER_07 58:33

Well, I'm but when as you're as humble as me, you know, it's like very good. Uh, God Spurgeon, God is too good to be unkind, and he's too wise to be mistaken. When you cannot trace his hand, you can trust his heart. Good. Too good to be unkind, too wise to be mistaken. So it's trusting him, it's relying on him. So all right, there you have it. So much more to say than we're gonna say. Go home. Whatever. Don't forget, friends, the tough questions. Apologetics made simple. Get that. Like, subscribe, share, all that good stuff, as Oscar would often remind us.

SPEAKER_06 59:12

And don't forget, podcast at livingwaters.com.

SPEAKER_07 59:15

Podcast at LivingWaters.com. Where you can share your thoughts, your questions, your criticisms, and your praise of Ray Comfort's bono glasses. Ray, I just have to say again, I'm not flattering you. Those are the coolest glasses you've ever worn in your life.

SPEAKER_01 59:31

Seriously? Don't you guys agree? Agree. I want to run.

SPEAKER_07 59:37

All right.

SPEAKER_05 59:37

Um, there you have it, friend. Thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_07 59:41

We hope you like our new studio.

SPEAKER_05 59:43

We'll see you again next time on the Living One podcast.

SPEAKER_01 59:48

It's like the Muppets in one person. Where are we at?

SPEAKER_05 59:52

No idea.

SPEAKER_01 59:53

Oh, he's gone.

SPEAKER_05 59:54

What we're doing.

SPEAKER_07 59:55

Hey, Miss Peggy. It's a terrible Kermit.

SPEAKER_00 59:59

That was Kermit.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:02

Miss Peggy. I'd imagine this is what it would sound like if you walked by an insane asylum. True.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:07

Are we gonna stop this?