The Living Waters Podcast
Enjoy the ride with this hilarious new Podcast as hosts (Ray Comfort, Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne, Mark Spence, and Oscar Navarro) and special guests explore the pressing questions of our day with sound theology and apologetics! We would love to hear from you. How has the podcast encouraged you? Are there any subjects you’d like the guys to cover or questions you’d like them to answer? Email us at Podcast@LivingWaters.com and you may hear your feedback and questions quoted on the next episode!
The Living Waters Podcast
Ep. 376 - The Pagan Revival: Why Witchcraft Is Exploding Among Teens
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
What happens when a generation openly pursues the supernatural while turning away from God, searching for meaning and identity in everything but Him? Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar dive into the rising tide of paganism, astrology, witchcraft, and spiritual experimentation among Gen Z, exploring why young people are so drawn to these practices and what this reveals about both the culture and the church. The guys emphasize that this hunger points to a deeper spiritual void that only Christ can fill, and that understanding it is crucial for anyone seeking to disciple this generation.
The guys examine whether Hollywood, social media, and platforms like TikTok are driving this movement or merely amplifying what has been quietly growing for years. They describe a rudderless generation marked by shallow conversions, suppressed truth, and a tendency to credit themselves rather than God for meaning. When sin is never crucified with Christ, the Spirit is quenched, and practices like tarot, astrology, or alternative spirituality rush in to fill the vacuum. Some of the guys share personal experiences from before their salvation, recalling encounters with the spiritual realm that they once dismissed but now recognize as very real.
Rather than responding with fear, the conversation moves to hope and practical discernment. Oscar notes that a pagan is often closer to conversion than a hardened materialist, because the longing for transcendence reveals a God-given hunger. As secularism flattens culture into monotony, people seek healing and purpose wherever they can find it. Paganism may offer a sense of community, empowerment, or entertainment, but only Christ provides true identity, restoration, and lasting transformation. Healing is never about managing energies or seeking control—it is found solely in the Savior who gave Himself fully for humanity.
The episode concludes with a sober call to vigilance and faithfulness. Witchcraft and paganism promise freedom without moral restraint, yet scripture clearly warns that they defile and deceive, and these influences now touch the church as much as the world. The guys caution that counterfeit spirituality and emotionalism often center on man rather than God, making discernment essential. Studying scripture is the key to recognizing false teachings, because counterfeits constantly evolve. Jesus is not one spiritual option among many; He is the singular way, truth, and life, and genuine repentance requires turning away from every other doorway and following Him completely, embracing the hope and transformation only He can offer.
Thanks for listening! If you’ve been helped by this podcast, we’d be grateful if you’d consider subscribing, sharing, and leaving us a comment and 5-star rating!
Visit the Living Waters website to learn more and to access helpful resources!
You can find helpful counseling resources at biblicalcounseling.com.
Check out The Evidence Study Bible and the Basic Training Course.
You can connect with us at podcast@livingwaters.com. We're thankful for your input!
Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro
A Thirst For Transcendence
SPEAKER_03There's like a thirst for transcendence. Right? There there's a thirst for spirituality. And so there there's a a drifting, uh, uh a gravitating, use that word, towards anything that's spiritual as long as it doesn't include repentance.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, good point.
SPEAKER_03Right. Um one person worded like this astrology gives meaning without surrender. Terror gives guidance without holiness, and manifestation offers control without a king, right? But only Christ gives life, only Christ gives truth, only Christ gives meaning to these things that we are experiencing on the daily. We we hunger and thirst for a transcendent understanding to what is happening around us. And only the Christian can make sense to it because we seek after repentance, not just spirituality. We're spiritual beings. And as spiritual beings, we try to fill that hole of spirituality with something, and this is why the world is throwing vomiting everything up before you. And unfortunately, uh the young generation especially is willing to swallow that uh regurgitation of whatever it is if it's not dealing with God.
Father–Son Wisdom And Discipline
SPEAKER_05It's something that we like to call being a fly on the wall. Okay, okay. That's a cool segment actually.
SPEAKER_06That's actually a confirmation as to what I'm gonna talk about. Why does it remind me of Fly on the Wall Productions? Is that something? That's what I wanted to do. Oh, that was you. Yeah. I thought so. Yeah, a long time ago.
SPEAKER_05All right, fly on the wall experience, friends. And a conversation between myself and my son Luke. Son, if you begin investing in a Roth IRA at 18 and keep regularly putting in a percentage of your income every month, you'll likely have millions of dollars when you reach retirement age. And in fact, Oscar, remember we we hung out with you and you came to kids from your past experiences.
SPEAKER_00I do recall.
SPEAKER_05Luke's response, uh, Papa, which is what they call me. Isn't that adorable? Papa. Papa. It means loser in Spanish. He used to call me Papa a lot. There must have been a method of that madness. Papa, why doesn't everyone do that? I remember when when he said that, it was it was like total innocence. And like, wait a minute, you're telling me if I do this, this is going to be the likely result. Why doesn't everyone do that? And so then I kind of walked him through scenarios of life, right? Like, why, like if you work out, you'll be healthy and probably extend your life. Why doesn't everyone do that? You know, if if uh you know you're you know you do this, this'll result. But you know, I had to tell him, son, the reason why is because it takes sacrifice, it takes self-denial, it takes discipline.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, it takes money.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. And so I asked myself this morning at 4 30 a.m. at the gym.
SPEAKER_06Did you call yourself?
SPEAKER_05Why? For the first time in 2025. I started on Monday. And uh so today, but but I don't know if you guys have noticed me walking around, I can hardly move.
SPEAKER_06You probably have a stiff neck or something.
SPEAKER_03No, it's my legs. Touch the shoulder, squeeze the shoulder or something.
SPEAKER_05My arms too. So yeah, uh, but it's good to be back at it, man. Yeah, uh it's been a little while. You still going, Oscar?
SPEAKER_04Sure am actually. Uh I took a video this morning because my my gym crush walked in while I was working out.
SPEAKER_05Oh, I saw that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Kelly's been working out.
SPEAKER_05Oh. Your ex-girlfriend. Your wife. My ex-girlfriend, she's now my wife. Yeah.
Fitness, Aging, And Real Health
SPEAKER_06How come you guys don't ever ask if I go to the gym? So far. That was good, Papa.
SPEAKER_05All right, my boy. All right, my boy. I'm gonna share the gospel. Ray, have you been pedaling? I gotta keep you accountable.
SPEAKER_06Peddling what?
SPEAKER_05On your electric bike, right?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I do. I do pedal deliberately. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05He does one pedal, so we get it going so you can tell me. The only thing Ray pedals is gospel tracks. Oh, I like that attitude. Yeah, but it's it's good to be back, man. Seriously. I mean, it's the third day, you know, uh getting up at four, going there. Um, but afterwards, like as I'm doing close on the third day.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. What time do you go to bed? To get up at four.
SPEAKER_05Uh ten. I just need six hours. Six hours, I'm great. If I can get six, I'm I'm great. No? I need like eight, ten, twelve, fifteen hours. Seriously, do you need like a minimum of eight?
SPEAKER_04I can I can function off as little as four. Six is probably my minimum, but I thrive on eight for sure. I rarely get eight. I usually get eight on a Friday night to Saturday morning. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05But uh six is my if I'm trying for eight, I'm always waking up around the six-hour mark. Like I don't, I just don't do that.
SPEAKER_03Do you wake up in the night? Sometimes. Sometimes. Well, I I wake up at least four or five, six times a night. Do you really? At least. Right.
SPEAKER_04I have a small bladder.
SPEAKER_03What's haunting your conscience?
SPEAKER_06That is so personal. It's true.
SPEAKER_05Well, Ray has a small everything. Thank you so much, guys. So um, yeah, but but so I do I do these basketball drills. So I do 30 minutes. And you guys tell me, I don't know anything about Rachel always laughs at me because I do stuff I have no idea. Well, start with the basketball diet. You have no idea.
SPEAKER_03I notice you're doing it without a ball.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Start with the basketball. I don't need it, okay? I don't need it. Okay, but what do you guys? I mean, you guys know more about this than I do. So I do 30 minutes of cardio basketball, 15 minutes jump shots, 15 minutes uh layups, and non-stop though. I keep going, going. I like it because I enjoy basketball and it's I'm using my arms, I'm running, I'm jumping, hand eye coordination. So I mean, is that good? What do you guys think? Sure.
SPEAKER_03What do you do to work out though?
SPEAKER_05Uh then I go in the sauna and then I go home. Really? No, I'm transitioning. Oh, you can't. Oh, I'm so that's gonna be taking out of context.
SPEAKER_03No, it's good. I mean, I think your workout is Oscar's warm-up. Actually. No, but that's where I'm heading.
SPEAKER_05So I'm heading toward next. I was gonna start right away with push-ups and sit-ups and stuff before I hit the weights, just phase by phase. But I thought I'm gonna kill my legs as it is, so let me just do about a week, two weeks of this and then add in, you know, push-ups, sit-ups.
SPEAKER_04I would say whatever gets you in the gym and whatever gets you consistent, that's important. However, yeah, I think as you grow older, especially if you're over the age of 40 for men, one of the most important things for the sake of longevity and health is muscle retention. Yeah. Because our body, after the age of 40, starts eating away at our muscles. And the less muscle you have on your body, the more likely you are you're gonna struggle as you get older. Uh, especially the older you get, the more you tend to fall. And for example, if you don't have leg strength or up or body strength, you can't prevent yourself uh from falling. You can't catch yourself as you're as you're on your way down. And so muscle retention is huge. And while cardio makes you feel really good because it's high energy, it's somewhat easy and fun to do, especially if it's basketball, it'll actually have the opposite effect. If you're not eating enough pre protein and are careful, it'll eat away at your muscles. You actually lose muscle if you do too much cardio. And so I would say that's a great get in there, be consistent, but yeah, try to get yourself towards um some sort of resistance training as quickly as possible because that's really where you're gonna feel positive about it.
SPEAKER_06I'm about to be mocked, but my muscle increased when I went on the carbon carnival diet.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it probably did. Increase in protein. Yeah. It did. Yeah, protein is a huge aspect to holding on to muscle.
SPEAKER_06I grew about eight inches.
SPEAKER_04Wow, look out.
SPEAKER_05Richard, look out, Richard Simmons. You know your stuff, bro. Don't say things food-wise. So here's what I'm doing. My shorts aren't that long. Here's what I'm doing for food right now. I'm cutting, I'm doing like an energy bar, cutting it in half, banana in half, cheese in half. This morning I added an apple, apple in half. Like cutting portions to lose a little weight. And then I want and then I want to, and then I want to drop 25 pounds and then rebuild with muscle. That's probably stupid.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I've heard you say that a couple times.
SPEAKER_05I don't care. For the last 10 years. I lost 21 pounds the last time I did it. Well, never built back with muscle.
SPEAKER_04The kicker about losing pounds is that it's not actually an indication of health. Because again, if you're not eating enough protein and you're not doing enough um, you know, resistance training to build muscle, then when you say I lost 20 pounds, the real question is how much of that 20 pounds was muscle? Because quite a bit it quite a bit of it will be muscle if you're not eating enough and if you're not resisting. I know.
SPEAKER_05I talked to someone else yesterday. They said, no, no, you need to do transfer, transfer the with the weight you have into muscle. But I can't. I have certain ways I do things. I want to drop to get that consistency and and discipline and then rebuild with, you know, whatever. Cut the chocolate cake in half. Cut the what?
SPEAKER_06Chocolate cake in half. Whoa, whoa, whoa.
SPEAKER_05Just have the way to do it. Whoa, whoa, whoa. All right. Free workout advice from Oscar Navarro. All right, friends. Uh cool, classy comment. This is from Jenna from Oklahoma. This was actually a mailed card.
SPEAKER_07Nice.
SPEAKER_05Those are really cool. Dear Ray, Easy, Mark, and Oscar. There aren't enough words to express how thankful I am for you all. I'm 18 years old. I'm an 18-year-old who is about to finish my first semester of college, and since the eighth grade, your ministry has taught me how to clearly and biblically share the gospel. By God's grace, I've been sharing regularly since middle school, and I've seen friends come to know and love the Lord.
unknownYes.
Listener Letter And Ministry Impact
SPEAKER_05That's amazing. You've given me the incredible gift of seeing the power of the gospel first and of beholding more of Christ's glory. Your lives.
SPEAKER_06Anyone else get a reader?
SPEAKER_05Your lives have shown me what it looks like to pursue Jesus wholeheartedly and not waste my life. I've I'm known as the gospel tract girl on my campus, and your TV show and podcast continue to encourage and equip me. The recent podcast episode on the Bible's nature and origins was a direct answer to prayer as I wrestled with questions from Mormon missionaries about Scripture's authority. That's just one of the many ways the Lord has used you to bless me. Thank you for your faithfulness for pointing me to the word and my and my local church and for laboring to steadfast uh so steadfastly in ministry. I'm deeply and sincerely grateful for each of you for his glory, Jenna.
SPEAKER_06Wow. Praise the Lord. Schooled for sure.
SPEAKER_05Thank you, Jenna. Praise God. You know, but just hearing that from the time she was 13 and 8th grade, and um God's using her. Amen. Praise the Lord. All right, podcast rankings shout out. I wonder where we're at in Fiji. Number 777 in Fiji. Man, I loved Fiji. Fiji's wonderful. Definitely my favorite place in our season 10 journey.
SPEAKER_03Is that where you got sick and stung?
SPEAKER_05That was Bula Bula. Uh no, that was Cook Islands. Cook Islands. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04That was my favorite place. Yeah. Because he got sick and stung. Smelly Jimmy.
SPEAKER_03What was the place where we had the stage and we open air preached?
SPEAKER_05That was also name. Yeah, that's because remember I was I was sick. I didn't go with you guys, and then I think I came later something. Fiji. Anyway, um, number seven.
SPEAKER_06God bless Feature. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05All right. And now radically revolutionary resource. This podcast is brought to you. World Religions in a Nutshell, a compact guide to reaching those of other faiths. Ray, you wrote that book.
SPEAKER_06Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Judaism, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Islam, Roman Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Atheism, Modern Christianity, all dealt with by Ray Comfort. I love that book because it's compact, succinct, but uh really gets to the point.
SPEAKER_04It'd be cool if we redid that book to look like a nutshell in the shape of a nutshell.
SPEAKER_03Written by a nut.
Resource Shoutouts And Housekeeping
SPEAKER_04Written by a nut. Shell nutshell.
SPEAKER_05Nutshell book by a nut. Don't forget. Check it out. Yeah, World Religions in a Nutshell. Living as I know that's that's my wife's favorite book. Is it really?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. She loves that book. Yeah, my daughter-in-law just asked for it yesterday. That's wonderful. She's learning to read.
Pagan Revival Among Teens
SPEAKER_05Good book. World Religions in a Nutshell. Don't forget Living Waters mug. That was a study Bible, Living Waters TV, all that. Living Vata Zatam. Yeah. And don't forget the podcast, YouTube channel. Subscribe. Where are you going, Oscar? Oh, I was. Oh, I told you guys, turn the AC on. All right. Today we're dealing with the pagan revival. Why witchcraft is exploding among teens. Witchcraft. I don't know. Which one? Making teens explode. Uh, making teens explode. Why, Ray, I'm thinking about that.
SPEAKER_06Um, so much better, Oscar. Thank you.
SPEAKER_05Immediately. There was a name. Um, Ray, you dealt with witchcraft in New Zealand. Yes. And girls came in, she had some kind of thing in her hand.
SPEAKER_06Yes, she did. Yeah, it was horrific. It was like a nightmare. Went on for um about an hour and a half. That's insane. Manifesting deems. Witchcraft are we talking about? Yeah, we just did that when airplanes were away.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Uh, but but it is, guys. What we're seeing, we're seeing more and more of this. Here's my question. Um, how much does Hollywood play a role in this stuff?
SPEAKER_03That's a good question.
SPEAKER_05Because it seems to be, it seems to be a celebrity thing. Back in the day, I remember uh Shirley McLean. Shirley McLean.
SPEAKER_03Tells again, like New Age, right? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05I am she kept to be a god.
SPEAKER_06She wrote to me. She did not. She did too? Shirley McLean? Yes, way back uh 1991. Leave me alone. Stop following me. Restraining order. I send her a book and she replied, thank you very much, in a handwritten letter. That was really great. It was called Someone Left the Cake Out in the Rain. Oh, yeah. And it was about my experience, it must be 1992, at MacArthur Park.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I remember her in a famous picture. She had like one of those triangle things on her on her head. She's like uh yeah, it was weird. Uh but she was she was like the guru of yeah, I am UH.
SPEAKER_03Wait, Oscar has no idea who Shirley McClain is. No clue what's going on. We don't?
SPEAKER_04This is officially the first time I've ever heard those two names put together at the same time. Shirley McCurse. I thought it was maybe like John McLean's sister.
SPEAKER_06From Diharso. Okay. Word association, John Wayne. Yes, yes, John Wayne. Airport, yeah, airport. You heard of John Wayne?
Hollywood, TikTok, And Algorithms
SPEAKER_04Of course, yeah. I'm reading a book uh that was based on a John Wayne movie right now. Um I don't know how much Hollywood has to do with it, only because if you look at the data, uh 80% of Gen Z and millennials are starting to believe in some sort of paganistic rituals, whether it's astrology, ancestral worship, or crystals, and that's also the generation that tends to not go to the movie theaters. But what's more interesting than that is that TikTok tends to be a place where ancestral worship, crystals, astrology becomes like a very prominent thing. I mean, there is a lot of viral videos and uh influencers that love to provide potential answers in this paganistic worldview. So I can't help but wonder if social media is a driving force for this rise in new age paganism.
SPEAKER_06Well, I think it needs to wonder, definitely is.
SPEAKER_05That's such a good point, Oscar. I I seriously I forget that like TV is not what it once was. I mean, that was our generation growing up. Everything was, you know, through the influence of TV. Of course, you have music and different things like that. But man, social media has just it it dwarfs anything television or movies that you know might have by way of impact. Uh and the algorithms too, right? So it's not just that, oh, I go and search something, you search it, now you're gonna be fed it regularly. What are you gonna say, right?
SPEAKER_06I don't know, I wasn't listening. You're gonna say something. Now, I would say that we have a ruttless ruttless generation. And a rudderless generation can be blown about by every wind of doctrine. And we see the wind of doctrine mentioned in 1 Timothy 4, 1 to 2. Spirit speaks expressly in the latter days, some shall depart from the faith and begin listening to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, as the wizard would say. Oh.
SPEAKER_05I love that emphasis, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Now, you you sent the mess a message to the wizard of Christchurch. I did. And that's wonderful. It's his birthday on December the 4th. He's 93, and I wished him happy birthday.
SPEAKER_05You guys, I know I interviewed him, but were you guys with us, or were you out filming something else when we were there?
SPEAKER_03No, you're you were alone. I I was doing something else, like napping or sleeping or preaching the gospel.
SPEAKER_06That was in Christchurch, and it was to do our uh season eleven, and uh I crossed swords with him for 12 years, and I absolutely love the guy. But yeah, the the reason I said devils is because I was reminded of when he was quoting from scripture the gospel of Mark, and he said um Chush, the wife of Herod Stewart, was there, and Mary Magdalene, out of whom Jesus casts seven devils. And the crowd go like that, and it really quickly. Oh, yeah, it was a great lesson to just put life into the words, especially scripture.
SPEAKER_05I noticed you do that in sermons, you'll hit a tone.
Doctrines Of Demons And Drift
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah. Mid sermon. So, anyway, that's one of the signs at the end of the age that some shall depart from the faith. And that's why it's so uh tr tragic that uh the modern gospel produces so many who depart from the faith. They put their hand to the plow and they go back. They're Lot's wife, who look back. And the Bible says the latter end becomes worse than the first. The pig goes back to wallowing in the mire, and we know why a pig wallows in the mire. It's not because it's unclean, it's to cool its flesh. And when you have a false conversion, your sinful nature is not crucified with Christ. You still live after the flesh, and you have to go back to the world to cool your flesh. Wow. And scripture says that you'll be seduced into doctrines of devils or demons, which is what we see with this generation. A rudderless generation have no uh no rudder to direct them into the right path. The voice of the church.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Mark, do you see a Romans 1 dynamic at play in this? The suppressing of truth and unrighteousness.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and you notice it also says there in Romans 1 that they are a thankless people. And that's really what we have today. We have a generation of people that are thankless, they don't know who to thank, and they've suppressed who they are to thank, and they end up thanking themselves for what they are able to create. Um, time and time again, we see Ray talking to people that are atheists. And uh Ray will say, After the question will be, what did God ever do for me? And Ray will say, Well, it gave you a brain. And then the response is no, he didn't.
SPEAKER_05Which is such a one of my favorite things. I love that.
SPEAKER_03Pass that crush, right? I mean, it's it's just the it's the perfect setup, right? Um, yeah, I I think that uh people obviously the more you um resist the truth, you harden your heart, you become stiff-necked, you quench the spirit, you push them into a corner, and you are seduced by the same voices that whispered through idols or whispering through horoscopes, uh astrology and tarot cards. You know, we have right by my house, we have a um a tarot card reader. And I've been meaning to go in there. Really? Oh, yeah, right there off of your balenda boulevard before you get to Baskin Robbins. Oh, right Oh, yeah, that house.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, right by the trail right there. Yeah, I've been.
SPEAKER_03Meaning to go in there and just you know kind of hang alone and go, hello, my name is Mark. But you probably knew that already. Um, I I just want the lotto numbers. What can you do for me? Right?
SPEAKER_06You really say that?
SPEAKER_03I've been wanting to do that. I've been wanting to go in there.
SPEAKER_06Just give me a few.
SPEAKER_03Just give me a few. Just give me that first, what is it, six or seven minutes? No, what I know. I'd have to ask Oscar. Oscar, how many numbers in the lot? Uh 86. Um, but uh yeah, it's it's the same demons, it's the same voices. Uh may maybe masqueraded with it with a different mask, a different look, but the same thing. It's interesting, Mark.
Longings Behind New Age Practices
SPEAKER_05I I I remember someone doing an evangelism thing. They they did go into a fortune teller's thing, and she kept emphasizing, but I it's it's I'm a good one. Uh you know, it's like white magic and white witch, you know, kind of a thing. But white white lies. It's Satan. Yeah, it's Satan masquerading himself as an angel of light.
SPEAKER_03Ray went in, didn't he, with a hidden camera? Did you, Ray? Fortune teller? What'd you do with the Yeah, we got kicked out. You had a jib. I can't remember what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_06His glasses were someone. That was embarrassing.
SPEAKER_05His spy glasses were the size of a jib. I mean, it's like duh. Kirk and his head camera mounted his forehead.
SPEAKER_06We got kicked out of an astrologer on Hollywood Boulevard, Kirk and I did. We went in to try to film it. That was a flop. Oh.
SPEAKER_05But wasn't there a thing they were gonna do some kind of pagan ritual?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, we were at the pagan ritual up on a hill before Hollywood Hills, and I had these spy glasses on, and I hadn't quite got my movements down, it was like. Because I didn't want to move quickly because the the film would be jerky. So it was like this when I looked at it. Yeah. But I think we got caught by the people if I can't.
SPEAKER_05They saw you coming.
SPEAKER_06I I think, yeah.
SPEAKER_05The last thing Ray could have ever been is an undercover song.
SPEAKER_06That's true. Um, I got a question. Did you guys, especially, Oscar, did you believe in demons before you were a Christian?
SPEAKER_04No, I absolutely thought it was foolish. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's the atheistic worldview though.
SPEAKER_06Absolutely. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And what about you, Matt? I I definitely did. Um, I remember experimenting with the Ouija board when I was in eighth grade with some friends. Um, I was every time the the new astrology little packet came out, I'd always get that every month. Really? Uh yeah. I know.
SPEAKER_06So what happened with the whole I'm I'm fascinated. But what happened with the Tarot?
SPEAKER_03Well, I didn't do I didn't do the Tarot. I I did uh I did the Ouija board. Yeah, the Ouija board. Where you know, you never know. Is somebody moving that? Is that moving on its own? I was moving it.
SPEAKER_04But no, seriously, I have a Ouija board experience. I went to it. There's two weird moments that I had, probably in seventh grade, is that I got invited to this kid's house to spend the night. It was like a friend from soccer or whatever. And uh his we sat at the dinner table and his parents did the I'll tell you from Oscar's perspective. His parents did this weird thing that before they ate, they looked down at their knees and they started, and the dad just started talking to somebody. They were praying. They were Christians. They were Christians.
SPEAKER_05I'm telling you from my perspective, were they were like kind of weirdo friends?
SPEAKER_04They were like, they're the dad was praying, but I didn't know what that was. And I kind of was like, What and then uh we spent the night, and so I spent the night, and uh his sister came in the room who was older, and she was like, Hey, I got this Ouija board, you guys want to do it? And I we sat there and I thought it was so dumb. And I got bored within like five seconds that I started moving it, and I was like messing with them, you know, trying to get them to think that there was somebody in the room watching us.
SPEAKER_03My wife swears that it's real. That she doesn't swear, but she swears by the idea that it is real because when she used to do it, she said none of us were moving it.
SPEAKER_05Wow. Wow. I uh I I may have told you guys, I don't remember, but uh this older lady used to come to our home, my mom's friend, she was a Druze. It's a religion in Lebanon. Uh and she would she would they would cut up these pieces of paper and make a triangle and get a like a shot glass, and they'd start. And I had as a kid, I'm like, oh cool. And then I grew up, I'm like, she's doing a Ouija board in our house.
SPEAKER_04In Turkey, you remember they were saying they like look at your coffee mug to turn it over and then from the the the drippings, yeah.
SPEAKER_05They they do that. But yeah, I yeah, that stuff, man.
Church Emotionalism And Discernment
SPEAKER_04Let me let me point us to Monday's uh hopefulness. Let me point us to a hopefulness. Uh, because I I want to be, you know, we learned a lot from uh the Apostle Paul and how he reached the lost, and that he wouldn't just condemn them, he would, he would look for the longing uh longings of their heart and find a way to uh find a redeemable aspect and point them to the gospel. And as a matter of fact, C. S. Lewis also did the same thing. At his time and age, he's vastly known for talking with atheists, but he actually has this quote in which he was more hopeful talking with a modern-day pagan. He said, he basically called them a pre-Christian. So he said, uh, for a pagan, as history shows, is a man imminently convertible to Christianity. He is essentially the pre-Christian or a sub-Christian because at least he is a religious man. He was kind of taking a jab at atheists at that time. So what is he getting at? Charles Taylor pointed out that we would, uh as we move into secularism, that the world would become monochrome, flat, disenchanted, that everything would be measurable through science. I'm using air quotes science and reason. And I think what's happening with this new culture of an interest in these pagan rituals like ancestral worship and crystals and astrology is that something inside of them is telling them that materialism is not all there is, that there is something behind the physical, that there is something transcendent out there, and they're trying to grasp onto that. And so, in other words, I think this young generation has a longing for agency in a spiritual world, and they're just turning to the wrong mechanism. And so I wrote a few examples on how we can kind of turn this narrative on its head. Uh, astrology, tarot card, manifestation, these aren't primarily about pagan religion. They're about control when one of these people feels like the world is uncontrollable. And the reality is like the promise of paganism is that you can influence the universe, but the gospel reminds us that we are forgiven by the one who could who created and control the universe. Uh, there's a longing for mystery in a disenchanted age. Gen Z lives in a hyper-materialistic, scientifically flattened world, and witchcraft gives them back a sense of attachment. The gospel angle is this Christianity does not take away mystery, it puts it back where it belongs, in a personal God, not in an impersonal force. They're hungry for transcendence, and Christianity offers that not in a cold and impersonal magic, but in a relational and purposeful God. And then there, of course, is a longing for identity and belonging, like witchcraft, astrology, crystal shops. If you look deeply, they're offering community, they're offering a place to belong and to be known and to be named. But the gospel gives us the one who truly gives us identity and purpose. We can come to know the one whose name is written on our hearts. In other words, Gen Z wants to be a part of something bigger. And the gospel, through its promise of adoption, offers them not just affiliation, but but sonship, being a daughter of Christ. One more, the longing for healing from trauma and anxiety, crystals, energy cleansing, manifestation journals. These are therapeutic tools for a generation with unprecedented anxiety. But the gospel tells us that the desire for the healing is right. But healing is not found in managing spiritual energies. It's found in a savior who is entered into our suffering, who has suffered the worst of all, the wrath of God being poured out on him so that we would be forgiven and so that we could be promised healing from our wounds on the other side of eternity. Jesus doesn't offer you a technique, he offers you himself. So the point here is not just to laugh and mock at our pagan neighbors, but to look at their hearts to find the longing and to show them what they truly long for is what they were created for, and that is to worship a holy and great God.
SPEAKER_05Oh, that's great. Yeah, and and you know, to that point, Oscar, the people that have been transformed. We have a good friend, Doreen Virtue, right? Yes, you've you've been on with Doreen, I think. Uh, and she's a good friend of the ministry, but she I didn't realize until recently how how really big in that whole world she really was. She was on Oprah. Uh she was like, I mean, she's Oscar.
SPEAKER_06Have you heard of that pro?
SPEAKER_05You know, she was on uh she she like was really big time and well known in that whole world, and the Lord just radically transformed her life. Uh Trevor Sheet's uh wife, Ashley, Trevor, who used to be our COVID wife, she was like intensely into that whole world, you know. And and I've seen a number, you know, online who've been brought out of that. And so I like what you're saying, Oscar. Like, we we do need to be careful in all these things. It's easy to just have a mocking spirit or attitude, but it's like, man, that's who we once were, maybe in another form, but we were once lost. That's right.
SPEAKER_03You know, there's there's a thirst. Uh I like the way you worded it. There's like a thirst for transcendence, right? There, there's a thirst for spirituality, and so there's a a drifting, uh, uh a gravitating, use that word, towards anything that's spiritual as long as it doesn't include repentance.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, oh, good point, right?
SPEAKER_03Um, one person worded it like this: astrology gives meaning without surrender, terror gives guidance without holiness, and manifestation offers control without a king, right? But only Christ gives life, only Christ gives truth, only Christ gives meaning to these things that we are experiencing on the daily. We we hunger and thirst for a transcendent understanding to what is happening around us, and only the Christian can make sense to it because we seek after repentance, not just spirituality. We're spiritual beings. And as spiritual beings, we try to fill that hole of spirituality with something, and this is why the world is throwing vomiting everything up before you. And unfortunately, uh the young generation especially is willing to swallow that uh regurgitation of whatever it is if it's not dealing with God.
Scripture Against Mediums And Magic
SPEAKER_06I I think the the reason that so many are flocking to the the dark side is because the devil tempts us with that which uh sinful nature desires. You look at the works of the flesh. Galatians 5. Now the works of the flesh are evident adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, and then sorcery is in there. And um drunkenness, revelings, and such the like. The key is to understand that sorcery is among the works of the flesh. That's the that's the attraction. I think there's one thing that God created that just blows me away, that so illustrates the power of sin, and that's the Venus. No, the Venus flytrap. No, Venus flytrap. I mean, just think about it. It's just it looks like a bear trap, but it looks like a trap. But the fly goes in there, he he he's attracted by a seductive odor. And he's got twenty seconds after his body touches two little hairs, very sensitive hairs, he's got twenty seconds to make his mind up. Am I gonna stay here or get out of it? If he doesn't leave, real quick, that comes down, it comes down slowly and holds, and then it crushes. Oh, that's amazing. And then there's a lunch for the Venus flytrap. And that's what sin is like, it's got an odor, it attracts us in adultery, fornication, lewdness, drunkenness, all those things appeal to the sinful flesh. There's an odor that attracts us, and if we stay, if we don't listen to the voice of our conscience when those hairs are triggered, uh, we're gonna be trapped to the by the devil, swallowed by death, and end up in hell. And it's uh it's it's frightening when you watch with a Venus fly trap at work. It's just how can you say there's no God? I know. Just with that little plant, yeah, it's so incredible.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_06So witchcraft and all these things we're talking about offers a religion with no moral restraint, which is what you brought up. And that's why it's so attractive. And that's why so many people you say to them, Are you a spiritual person? They'll say, Yeah, I am a spiritual person. Spiritual. That's cool to say that. Yeah, it's got a lens that's very um, you know, trendy.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and and by the same token, Ray, this isn't new in the sense that, and I want to go to scripture on this, but but even within our lifetime, like the Beatles, there was the 60s were were a big kind of a turning point toward all that too, as well, right?
SPEAKER_06Eastern mysticism and Eastern mysticism, especially. George Harrison pulled the Beatles into it. Um, he was searching for truth. Yeah, and he and I felt that same power, that seductive spirit. Uh, it sounds weird. I wasn't a Christian, I was 20 years old, I was in Australia, which is a small island off the coast of New Zealand, and I was in the store, and Sue hated being in the store because she had a Christian background, and it was just an Indian store with that smell that you go into and all these incense. Yeah, all these white sort of shirts that the Indians wear, and I just so wanted to be part of that culture. I didn't know why. And I looked back now and was like a seductive spirit was kind of pulling me into the whole thing. And yet the Beatles became very quickly disillusioned because the guru they followed was really interested in the female fans that were following the Beatles. And uh they they became very disillusioned and it broke away, but it was too late because millions have been pulled into it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you know, like me. Mark wanted to join that whole culture, but the biggest draw for him was that he'd be able to wear patchouli. Patchouli. What's patchouli? Mark, would you say that's like one of the worst odors for you on the planet?
SPEAKER_03If somebody comes to my house wearing patchouli, I won't let them in. What is patchouli? It's like it's like hippie oil.
SPEAKER_06It's yeah, it's horrible.
SPEAKER_03It's it's so I actually like this. Oh, kind of so bad. It really is terrible. I don't mind it.
SPEAKER_06And it lingers for for years.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, they'll sit on they sit on the couch. Like my kids had some friends, they're wearing patchouli, they sit on the couch and then it's there forever. You get rid of the couch. So I told my I told my son, I said, son, your your your friends are all welcome here, but none that wear patchouli. In fact, you have to tell them they have to take it up before they come in. It's so bad. I go, if you don't, I will.
SPEAKER_06A wise men once said, only idiots like the smell of patchouli. We should manipulate.
SPEAKER_05I love hearing Ray say patchouli. Patchouli.
SPEAKER_03That's the way it should be pronounced.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Patchouli.
SPEAKER_04We shouldn't manipulate the year and Christmas present giveaway so that he ends up getting patchouli. He opens the envelope and it's like a year's supply of patchouli.
SPEAKER_05Wow. So you mess with me, Mark. I'm gonna have a spray bottle patchouli. You're gonna tell you.
SPEAKER_03You're gonna see the flesh come out. The flesh come out.
SPEAKER_04Let me say this too, though, real quick here. Maybe not real quick. We'll see.
SPEAKER_03I'll just here to bring the sanity to our insanity.
Experience vs Truth: Testing Spirits
SPEAKER_04Paganism is not just in the fringes, as we've been talking about with crystals, astrology, ancestral worship. Paganism has made its way into the church as well. It's snuck its way into the church through soft gospel preaching. But even in some of our most theologically conservative churches, I've seen how we slip into a paganistic view of the world. I've said this before. I was at a men's conference here in Orange County, a prominent, fantastic pastor who we've quoted on this podcast. I remember him getting up and him talking about the world and simply saying, like, we don't need to worry about it because it's all gonna burn up anyway and we're gonna be out of here. That is paganism. That's Gnosticism. It's it's at least having one foot into a Gnostic view. And so I think we also have to be like faithful Bereans, aware of paganism in the pews, as well as we're as aware of paganism in the in the pit styles. You know, I love the way I can't remember who it was that said this, but that might make people feel overwhelmed. Like I have to know paganism, I have to know Gnosticism, I have to know what ancestral worship is and crystals. There's so much to to to read and to know to protect myself. Actually, actually, all you have to do is know the word of God. When they teach people at banks, bank tellers to know the difference between frauds and a real real dollar bill, they don't teach them what real, they don't teach them what fraudulent money looks like because it's always changing. What they do is they make them masters of real money so that when the fraudulent bill comes, it obviously doesn't belong. And so the the point here is like the call to all of us as Christians in the pews is to know the word of God so that when these counterfeits sneak into the pulpit, sneak into the pews, when our neighbors claim to be Christian, but they start talking as though they are not, we will recognize instinctively the counterfeit Christianity that's all around us.
SPEAKER_06John MacArthur said Satan is most effective in the church when he comes not as an open enemy, but as a false friend, not when he persecutes the church, but when he joins it. Not when he attacks the pulpit, but when he stands in it.
SPEAKER_07Dang, man.
SPEAKER_06It what we're talking about is Sino. A Christian in name only. Oh like rhino.
SPEAKER_05Like a casino. I like that. That's a new one. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Let me let me ask a question, guys. Um you know, we we we talk about we're we're against trances, obviously. We're we're against chanting, right? You brought up an interesting point. Seeping into the churches, right? But what about repeating the same lyric over and over and over and over and over and over again? With I'm and I'm this is a question, I'm not I'm not pointing fingers. With with with lights dim, I like lights dim during worship. Lights dim, and then you have a worship leader for up there 15-20 minutes with the same song and repeating the same chorus just over and over and over and over again. And over and over and over. Can we lower the lights while he says that? Is there a danger? Is there a danger to something like that?
Syncretism And Counterfeit Christianity
SPEAKER_05I think from my perspective, the the danger, because you know, a lot of times it's a package. You get a whole package, you're not just dealing with one thing. So when you have a church that's doing that, oftentimes if you listen to the lyrics, the lyrics are also very unbiblical. And then the church is not Christ really Christocentric, but it's more about being, you know, seeker sensitive and and stuff like that. So so typically when you put all of that together, I think it can definitely put people in a dangerous state because they're not they're not truth oriented in their hearts and minds in an explicit way. And so they're they're open to becoming those that are connected to emotionalism. And and then you have you have that domino effect that affects how they. Live that affects what their foundation is based on. The emotions aren't there. I don't feel the have the feels during the chant. Oh no. And it just from there it just degenerates. So I think it's the whole package thing.
SPEAKER_03Gotcha.
SPEAKER_06And I think the essence of the package is a failure to preach sin, righteousness, and judgment.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. It's just not there. That's always a part of that package, too, you know. Um, but I want to, I know you have something to say, Austin, but but I do want to touch on something that you said earlier, and and this is what I would say to believers, because you talked about paganism in the church, and and I think we need to beware of what I call beware of the residue. You know, we always talk about residue, like like you have something, but then there's a residue left over from it, you know?
SPEAKER_03That smell.
SPEAKER_05And so the the world, you know, the the church like kind of gets touched by the residue of the world, and then we we kind of mix that in. But what do we do, right? Comparison and contrast. Well, we're not doing that, but yet its philosophies have crept in and it's it's connected to that paganism. So, man, we have to be careful in the church. It's true.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, I like what you said. It's it's a whole package thing. I think the way you described it sounds like a whole package: 20 minutes, lights down, random lyric, emotionalism. It can feel like a like a trance, it can feel like they're trying to manifest something. Um it's intoxicating. It's intoxicating, that's exactly right. Um, but if you break it down in segments, because I don't want to be legalistic here and I want to recognize that there is some nuance. Like, for example, there's certain there's certain hymnals that can come off as repetitive. One of my favorite ones, doxology. It's it's pretty short, it's pretty repetitive. Uh, but if you focus on on the lyrics, it's very clearly praising God for who he is. In other words, it's God focused, not man focused. And if if if if someone walks me, if a worship leader walks me through doxology and at the end of it they say, hey, let's do that again, my red flag does not go up.
SPEAKER_07Right.
SPEAKER_04Now, to your point, you know, the lighting, the sound, the lyric, the the whole experience of it all, uh, what is it telling? Is it is it trying to get me to manifest something? Is it offering me to be the center of the story of the gospel? That's when red flags start to rise. That's when we need to recognize how paganism sneaks its way into the church. There's a great book years ago, I probably read it 15 years ago. Uh gentleman's name is Ross Duthat. He wrote a book called Bad Religion, and he essentially shows, he's a Catholic. Um, so there's a lot of things we disagree on, the gospel essentially, but he's also a sociologist, and he does a great job of showing how these pagan practices have entered into normal Christian experiences. And it's it's worth it's worth reading uh for the discerning reader because it he does a great job of breaking down all of these things that sneak into the chat.
SPEAKER_03Let me bring up let me bring a qualifier. I think we can connect here. Um we talk about worship in the church, worship music in the church, which is what worship is about him. Yeah, I worship you, doc's all, it's about him, right? So when I when I when I'm referring to the continual repetitive words, it's not we worship you, but it's for example, wash over me. Wash over me, wash over me. And now the that meeting, that gathering has become about me as opposed to him, because when it makes it about him, I'm going to get washed.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, right?
Burning Idols And Visible Repentance
SPEAKER_03You know what I'm saying? So I think that we can call a worship service a worship service, and when we're worshiping him, when we're talking about him. I'm not saying we can't sing, wash over me, cleanse me. Right. You know, Psalm 51. I'm not saying that we can't implement certain things like that, but I think I might see a danger in the midst of the where I'm continually repeating a word about me. And that's fine, you can do that, but when you do that continually, we are changed, our minds are renewed with the word of God. This is why we love hymns so much. We love hymns because there's so much, there's such a saturation with the word of God. Because well, where are they gonna go? What are they what do these old hymn writers write? Right? I mean, they they talk about their experiences and things of that nature, but then they always bring in scripture. Yeah, they bring the scripture that's attached to it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, absolutely. And can I say something? Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, we love hymns because he first loved us. Oh, you go.
SPEAKER_05Wasn't that other one you came up with?
SPEAKER_06That saying, the um. Sino, ooh, Christianos. The name only. Um part of my background when it comes to this worship and kind of chanting and singing and repetitive was a worship leader would say, We want to bring down the presence of God. And you do that by just doing what you were saying, bringing down the presence of God. Um, and people would lift their hands and there'd be emotions and tears and excitement and joy, but you can get that at a rock concert.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. And you get it at rock concerts. Yeah, yeah. No, it's true. Um, yeah, and and I think too, you know, Mark, um yeah, it's it's what the focus is. Like obviously, meditation can include a form of chanting, you're chewing the cud, you're repeating things over and over again. But what's the focus? You know, as an example, I mean, you know, we know the Psalms are pretty much worship songs in a sense. But on Thanksgiving, I did a devotional with the family and I went to Psalm 136. Give thanks to the Lord for he is good. But look at the repet repetition for his mercy endures forever. Give thanks to the God of gods for his mercy endures forever, give thanks to the Lord of Lords, for his mercy endures forever. Give to him who alone does great wonders for his mercy endures forever. And it goes on throughout the whole psalm, but notice who the focus is. It's the Lord.
SPEAKER_06Do you read this? Um every every verse, I tend to subverse.
SPEAKER_04I have a question. When you guys are there at Thanksgiving, easy and Ray, I'm assuming you've done a Thanksgiving together. When you start your devotion, are you like, I'm Lebanese and he's Jewish and together. We have illusion to the Lebanese.
SPEAKER_05And then we do a synchronized trance. Oh boy. Yeah. Anyway, so yeah, so there is, you know, it's it's what it is. But like I was saying, a lot of times typically there is this package in when in the scenarios that you gave, you know. Yeah. So so yeah, and then look, the most important thing is what what does scripture say, right? So Leviticus 19, 31, give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits, do not seek after them to be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God. I love the fact that he highlights defilement because there is a defilement of soul and spirit and and mind. And then and back in those days too, in a lot of those practices, it was body too. You had, you know, prost temple prostitutes, you had you know sexual uh elements that were intermingled with pagan pagan worship. Yeah, you know. And you know, and then uh of course you've got uh you know Isaiah 8, 19 to 20, uh, where he says, he's not he said, and when and when they say to you, seek those who are mediums and wizards who whisper and mutter, should not a people seek their God? I love that. Like, should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? And uh so you know, so many passages that deal with this issue. Um, Isa Jeremiah 10, 2, thus says the Lord, do not learn the ways of the Gentiles, do not be dismayed at the signs of heaven, for the Gentiles are dismayed at them. Like he's saying, basically, you're you're being you're being lured into allowing your lives to be affected and impacted by superstition. But that has a demonic element, but that's what a lot of it is. Oh, the breath. Thank you for the breath.
SPEAKER_03Let's also bring a qualifier here. We're not saying that certain things like this don't work. We're not we're not saying that uh you can't experience something, something spiritual, something supernatural, even. I think that that comes into play, right? Satan often disguises himself as an angel of light. So what do you say to the individual who says, no, you don't understand? I tried this and it worked. Worked what? It brought me peace. I had closure. You know, I I heard the voice from my mom when I met with that person. We went to the crystal ball, you know, I did it, and it worked. And now they're convinced that what they now believe is true based upon that pragmatic experience as opposed to truth. Where's the first place you go to try to maybe talk them off that ledge? I talked to my mom who died, right? How do we talk them off that ledge and bring them back to a focus of the word or on God? And and listen, that's that's evil. What you experience was maybe demons.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_06I I noticed that the paganism or Satanism is one of the works of the flesh, can't remember what it was called. Do you think inherent in the psyche of every unsaved person or the world, there is the knowledge that what they're doing is morally wrong or offensive to God?
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I would say that, yes, based on not that there can't be some level of ignorance, but at the end of the day, with God's law being written upon man's heart, you know, I think I think there's knowledge, you know, of sin and error. Um how that plays out exactly in accountability before God and judgment, I I don't know exactly.
Final Exhortations And Sign-off
SPEAKER_06But I got a quote here from High Priestess, if I'd like to share on that. Okay. Uh they need to turn the tools of the altar or learn the tools of the altar. They need to know what the elements get down. Well, the elements are they need to know what the watchtowers are and how to call the quarters and how to draw down the moon. But the most important thing is how to become the people that our religion shows that we can be. Um to me, that sounds creepy. As a non-Christian, to get into something like that just sounds creepy, calling down this and and um drawing down the moon. You know, it's just weird.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, there's so much there, you know. And I think when when you start getting into other things that that I think too are are part and parcel with doctrines of demons, and you know, the the positive confession stuff, the Norman Vincent Peel stuff, you know, uh there were there were there was a time too when when believers were kind of tapping into you guys remember the whole The Secret? That was a big deal, you know? Vision boarding, yeah. And Christians were like kind of adopting that, trying to Christianize it, you know. And but man, who are we going to for our source? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And that goes back to my my question when we were doing like what do what do we do with that person who says, No, I I've experienced something you don't understand, you know, because you're at the mercy of an experience. Yeah. You know, where do you guys go when somebody comes to you and says, No, I had this experience?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. I I I go to first of all validating that that experience was probably real. I mean, you guys have seen those, those, those fortune towers. There's this lady with big blonde hair on TV, and she like talks to the dead, and she'll have someone there, and she'll do go to celebrities, and and I mean, they're freaking out. They're like, there's no way anyone could have known that. That's impossible, you know. I I do believe, like you mentioned earlier, Mark, there this is there is a real element there. There are demonic entities at play. So I I just go to the fact that just because that happened, I mean, look, even with Catholics, oh, we had an apparition of Mary, you know, oh, this, this, and that. I think those are demonically influenced, sure. Sure. Because they're drawing people away from Christ. So what they're probably expecting is for you to debunk that that happened to them. So I don't debunk it. I say, in fact, this is look, we can look at scripture, we could see examples of demonic activity. Look at, you know, Paul, uh, you know, and and that that servant girl that was following them around, Paul and Silas, and she kept, you know, these are servants of the most high God. And she was right, and but and that was real, and then the the casting out happened. And so I just tell them this is this is what scripture says Satan's real, he's alive, and that's what that is, but you're on the wrong side of messing with this stuff.
SPEAKER_03And you gotta be careful, yeah.
SPEAKER_06So um Norman Vincent Peel, what did he do? He he he he you mentioned him before.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, he was he was the he was the guy that greatly influenced uh Robert Schuler. Oh, that's right.
SPEAKER_06We met his son for lunch one day. Very nice guy.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, we did.
SPEAKER_06You reminded me of the quote by Leonard Ravenhill that I just love. He said, I find the Apostle Paul appealing and Peel appalling. I remember that, yeah. Yeah, man. Enough to make you cough. That's paganism right there. Remember Petra? That's who I was gonna say Petra. Petra, not the band. The lady she followed me around for two years. Yeah. Uh she would um I may have talked about it before, but uh when I preached, suddenly she showed up wearing a completely black outfit, having a six-foot staff in her hand. She had trendy gloves without fingers in them, black before it was trendy, to do it. She had a bottle of whiskey, an empty bottle of whiskey in her hand. She put paper on the ground, and we had a large crowd, and she threw that bottle on the ground, smashed it, and then in perfect King James English said, I have divorced you as a nation. Thus saith the Lord thy God. She pulled the rings off her finger and threw the rings at the crowd. And then she heckled me for about two years, and she'd keep saying to the crowd that I was speaking the truth, which really bothered me because it brought about confusion. And then she'd cuss and I'd say, Yes. You know, just showed with the colours that you're from. And uh and went to lunch with her. Very unwise of me to do so, but that's when she said to me, Your spirit visits my spirit and didn't. It did not stay exactly where I put it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and you know, I think another thing that's at play today is is what's known as syncretism, and that is a mixing of Jesus with these other pagan practices. So it's not like, oh, I'm a pagan and this is what I'm into, but it's like, oh, I love Jesus. I'm probably a Christian I go to church. But you know, I I also check my horoscope, and you know, I also we'll do some tarot and I'll do, you know, so it's it's this mixture that that is also a really, really big danger.
SPEAKER_04And you know, I used to have this uh friend that I used to work with him, we were close, and then he ended up getting married and uh went over to his house, and all over the place there was statues of Buddha and crosses of Jesus. And his his wife was like, Yeah, you know, I just I'm really into Buddha and Jesus, and so we're just trying to fill in the cross.
SPEAKER_06Jesus on the cross.
SPEAKER_04Some of them were, and some of them were just crosses. And uh it was so disorienting to me. Uh, we had a very interesting conversation that night, but the your point is exactly right. I know several people who I will go out to lunch with them and I will share the gospel. I'm thinking about someone specifically, someone I used to go to church with, has fallen away, gone through a divorce, all sorts of stuff. Go out to lunch, share the gospels with him. Yes, amen. I'm trying to, you know, hand my life over to Jesus, blah, blah, blah. And then he'll turn around and go on these like super paganistic paganistic retreats and um get super involved with astrology and crystals. And because in his mind, all Jesus is one of many spiritual doorways into having a satisfying life. And Jesus has said very clearly that he is the singular way, truth, and life. Uh, and the path towards heaven is narrow. There is no multiple doorways here, there is one doorway. And repentance is often repenting, turning from those other doorways, those other gateways towards heaven, those other manifestations that you're trying to utilize in your life. Jesus, not only does he call himself your savior, but he must also be your Lord if you are a Christian.
SPEAKER_05Amen.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. The burning man. Have you heard of that? Oh yeah. That's the that's that's the big attraction. But they've had some trouble in recent years.
SPEAKER_03Oscar goes every year.
SPEAKER_05Well, I missed last year, but no, it's not true.
SPEAKER_06We should actually go there with cameras.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that's a yeah, that's a big pagan ordeal. Yeah, um, and and the hope that we have in the Lord, I I love Psalm, oh I'm sorry, Acts 19, 18 and 20. Yeah. And many who had believed came confessing and telling their deeds. Also, many of those who had practiced magic brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all, and they counted up the value of them, and it totaled 50,000 pieces of silver. So the word of the Lord grew mightily and prevailed. And I love that. I mean, that's what happened when the when the word was preached, when the gospel was given clearly. It led to not just transformation and conversion, but it led to visible repentance. They brought out their books, they burned them. 50,000 pieces of silver. I mean, that was a lot of paganism.
SPEAKER_0327 years ago, Ray shared that scripture with me because I had just finished purchasing from uh Josh Scow um boxes and boxes and boxes of comics, each one with a its own cardboard backing and a plastic urethane covering over it. And I bought it as an investment, and then I started to go through them, and I'm like, these things are like demonic. Really? I can't I can't believe how crazy they're very seductive. And I told her, I went to Ray and I go, Ray, what do I do? Where's he's all and he brought up this passage and he said, Maybe you should burn them. So I went in the backyard and I had a big old bonfire, and I threw them all in there, I lit them on fire, and Josh is like crying. He's all no, don't do that. Um, but uh I lost my investment that day um with all the money that paid. But uh it's great because what would that have invited? Well, I paid$500, I think, for them, but they were worth a lot more um individually and what they're worth. So he still brings it up to this day.
SPEAKER_05Well, again, you know, I love Paul's utterance. I count all things as loss, all things as rubbish, rubbish. That's how I felt about my rap career, you know. And people thought I was crazy. What are you doing? You're on the brink, you're you got these big producers. I didn't even, and I was talking to an old friend I reconnected with today after 30 years, who who found me online. He'd been looking for me for 30 years, finally found me. And, you know, we were talking about my past and the history and all that, and and just recounting that reminded me and really kind of drove it home to me like the true transformation that it meant nothing. It like that was insanity in that time. I'm 15 years old, you know, and I I have these big producers, and kids were dying to get there, and there I was, but it was like not even a question. And so these guys burn, I don't care how much that's worth, like, whatever, burn it up. Yeah, so great talk, you guys. I I was really personally edified, which is unusual during our don't forget world religions in a nutshell a comeback guide to reaching those of other faiths. And remember, friends, like, subscribe, share, and please, podcast at livingwaters.com. You see, we read your letters, and so we want to hear from you, especially thoughts about episodes and uh input. So there you have it, friends. Um yeah, podcast at livingwaters.com. Thank you for joining us, friends. We'll see here next time on the Living Waters podcast, where we Have no idea what we're doing.
