The Living Waters Podcast
Enjoy the ride with this hilarious new Podcast as hosts (Ray Comfort, Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne, Mark Spence, and Oscar Navarro) and special guests explore the pressing questions of our day with sound theology and apologetics! We would love to hear from you. How has the podcast encouraged you? Are there any subjects you’d like the guys to cover or questions you’d like them to answer? Email us at Podcast@LivingWaters.com and you may hear your feedback and questions quoted on the next episode!
The Living Waters Podcast
Ep. 380 - The Loneliness Crisis: Why Real Camaraderie Is Dying
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Loneliness is quietly becoming one of the most dangerous struggles of modern life, even among believers who sit in full churches each week. Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar explore why fellowship is fading and why many feel isolated. The guys explain how social media fuels comparison and resentment by showcasing polished lives that make normal struggles feel shameful. People can stand in crowded rooms yet feel unseen, afraid that honesty will be met with misunderstanding. Biblical fellowship is part of God’s design, and shared purpose in the gospel replaces isolation with meaningful work. Busyness may numb loneliness temporarily, but it cannot replace deep relationships rooted in Christ.
The guys explore how fear of rejection and fear of being known keep people stuck in isolation. Humans are created in God’s image for a relationship with Him and with others, so disconnection runs counter to design. The gospel is not only a rescue from judgment but an invitation into communion with God and His people. Isolation creates space where lies grow louder, though intentional time alone with the Lord is different from unhealthy withdrawal. When believers live aware of Christ’s presence, they are never alone, yet they still need embodied community.
The guys connect the loneliness crisis to the Fall and to a culture that celebrates radical independence. From the beginning, it was not good for man to be alone, reflecting a God who exists in perfect community. Modern life pushes people inward, urging them to build identity from feelings and demand affirmation from others. This inward focus can lead to shallow online groups that imitate belonging without offering truth or accountability. Real gospel community reshapes hearts and calls believers to lift their eyes from themselves toward loving God and serving others. Purpose pulls people out of despair and reminds them they belong to something eternal.
Finally, the guys offer practical steps for rebuilding connections in a disconnected world. The starting point is Christ, because union with Him means a believer is never spiritually abandoned. Meaningful church involvement, discipleship, confession, and shared service are essential for growth. Overcoming isolation requires intention, such as changing habits, making time for friendships, and stepping into opportunities to serve with others. For those battling anxiety or fear, small but concrete steps matter. Christians are not meant to fight alone but to link arms, labor together, and find that fellowship is one of God’s primary tools for joy, strength, and lasting hope.
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Visit the Living Waters website to learn more and to access helpful resources!
You can find helpful counseling resources at biblicalcounseling.com.
Check out The Evidence Study Bible and the Basic Training Course.
You can connect with us at podcast@livingwaters.com. We're thankful for your input!
Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro
Community, The Fall, And The Gospel
SPEAKER_01We are made for community. We are made for community with God and with each other. And loneliness is a byproduct of the fall. Because of the fall, we had fractured relationships with each other. We see that between Adam and Eve. Because of the fall, we have a fractured relationship with God's creation, thorns and thistles. But as you alluded to, more importantly, because of the fall, we have a fractured relationship between us and God. And the beauty of the gospel is the reconciliation between us and people, between us and his creation, but primarily between us and God. In other words, that that luxurious monasticism only works on Instagram. It is not going to work for you in this real life. On today's episode of Living with the Zwains.
Banter, Perfectionism, And Cereal Chaos
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So I'm in the shower, and um I could not adjust the nozzles on the shampoo bottles to be straight. Let me guess. Did you call Rachel? I called 911.
SPEAKER_03You mean straight nozzles?
SPEAKER_02Okay, so you know, shampoo bottles, right? My shampoo bottles have to be, of course, the labels switched.
SPEAKER_03What did your therapist say about this?
SPEAKER_02So so you need to move on. So I tried to turn it and it wouldn't. And it was just like locked in that place. I thought, you know, sometimes you thought, but it wouldn't do it. And uh, so one was this way, one was that way. If you turn it that way, the label's not showing.
SPEAKER_01Is this the real reason you were two hours late to the podcast? Three.
SPEAKER_03So I wish you wouldn't tell us things. This makes us worried.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So anyway, I panicked, but I just went and then it worked, and all was well in the Zwain world.
SPEAKER_00With the strength of a three-year-old female, you were able to do it.
SPEAKER_02Come on, tell me, guys, seriously, you don't ever straighten labels and I don't care.
SPEAKER_00You don't care. I'm too busy praying for you.
SPEAKER_02Intercessions of love. Like, this is driving me crazy right now. Um, by the way, our good friends, the Smiths. Yes. How cool is this? Our good friends, the Smiths, Granger and Amber, who were just on the program. Okay, I gotta, I can't even look at it. Um we talked, we talked about frosted flakes and uh Lamborghini. Cinnamon. So that's what we should have done. Cinnamon toast crunch, and lo and behold, we get these boxes.
SPEAKER_03And Wheatabix got sent.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I think I think frosted flakes are the manna from heaven. It's this white sweet stuff that laid on the ground.
SPEAKER_02I can't wait to have it. Um, Ray, where's it? Where's the Wheatabix? Gave it to Sue. So you actually removed it from here.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so you guys wouldn't do it.
SPEAKER_01That's how quick you are. By the way, for those who can't see, in front of Easy is a stockpile of frosted flakes and cinnamon toast crunch, which is uh looks delicious, and according to Easy, is haunting him because it's not organized.
SPEAKER_02And I haven't eaten one thing all day. So what have you eaten? Really? Nothing.
SPEAKER_03Oh, not a thing. Have you tried frosted flakes just by themselves without milk? It's really nice, just a little crunch candy. Uh sometimes.
SPEAKER_00Try it with a couple tablespoons of sugar, it's even better.
SPEAKER_02Wait, who was it? Who said they did that? Oh, Mar. That's just ridiculous. That's wrong.
SPEAKER_00No, I don't do I I mean I ain't stopped when I turned 53.
SPEAKER_02He's not joking.
SPEAKER_03Sugar eats the brain, is it true? Well, I don't remember.
SPEAKER_02My my uh my friends just told me about their daughter-in-law, who's a big like health fitness. What is she weigh? How big is she? Well, she said that sugar really isn't bad for you. No. So I'm I am going to talk to her because if that's true, it's gonna change. That makes no sense.
SPEAKER_01Well, sugar That's what I would think. Natural sugar in natural foods. No, like strawberry. The white sugar. Like sugar.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, that's no problem. We'll see. I'm gonna talk to you. What does she weigh? 955. Well, that doesn't matter, okay, Mark. Don't get nitpicky, bro.
SPEAKER_03What's the name?
SPEAKER_02Sponsored by insulin. Yeah. Sponsored by us. Can you imagine she works for insulin? Um, but yeah, look, you uh no Mark. I'm gonna get blamed for this. This is our brand new table. See, Ray's rubbing off on you over there. No, seriously, you guys, we gotta wipe that up.
SPEAKER_03We never bothered to get it.
SPEAKER_02You got okay. What is that? This is handkerchief. Oh man, I was gonna get stuff like that. Hey, what's that for the changes and bringing stuff in there?
SPEAKER_01This was your idea.
SPEAKER_02All right, yes, it was Ray's idea, actually. Thank you for the um look, you guys mock me for my perfectionism. You guys remember getting a new parking lot? They're doing pavers out there today. I went out there. Yeah, we're supposed to have a border that's all black bricks, and they just started, and one of them wasn't. Yeah. And the guy said, Good eye. To be clear, we don't mock you for your we don't call it perfectionism, we call it imperfectionism.
SPEAKER_03Insanity is what we should call it. They both said the word at the same time.
Shoutouts, Rankings, And Devotional Plug
SPEAKER_02Yeah. All right, for real. It's time for a cool, classy comment. This is from Judah Ruckman. Thank you. I have been profoundly impacted by the Living Waters team. The Lord has used this organization to deepen my understanding of the gospel. Thank you so much for being faithful to obey the Lord. Thank you, Judah. We like that name too. I love it, Judah. And um, yeah, praise God.
SPEAKER_03Impact uh that was my impression of being her.
SPEAKER_02Do it, Judah. Judah. I love impersonating his girlfriend.
SPEAKER_03What? Yes, Judah. Yes.
SPEAKER_02That's it. Yeah. We always joke how we almost broke her, broke her neck.
SPEAKER_03Who said that? The girl. She said Judah. Yes, Judah, yes. Sounds like a man to me, well. Yes, Judah. Ursula. Yes, Judah.
SPEAKER_02All right, uh, podcast rankings. A shout out to Argentina. Whoa. Nice. Where the podcast ranks number two. Wow. I'd like to go there. And Christian podcasts number six out of all religion and spirituality podcasts, and get this guy's number in Argentina.
SPEAKER_03What do you think of when you hear the name Argentina? Soccer. Soccer. Soccer. Argentina.
SPEAKER_02I think of my cousin Alejandro, who lives there. Seriously. Is that a joy? Yeah. Miguel and I uh got together with him when we were in Argentina. He didn't speak English. I didn't speak Spanish. And so Miguel interpreted.
SPEAKER_03So he had a good time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But get this 100, number 131 out of all podcasts of all categories in the entire country. Wow. Pretty cool. What about the universe? It's number one in the universe. Let's go. And now so anyway, shout out to Argentina. And now a radically revolutionary resource. This podcast is by team. Jesus in Red. 365 meditations on the words of Jesus. Why Red, Ray? Why did you conform?
SPEAKER_03So that people would read it.
SPEAKER_02Ah! What are we supposed to do? Read it on red. I didn't get my read it on red.
SPEAKER_01What are we supposed to do during leap year?
SPEAKER_03Oh, just stand still.
SPEAKER_02Did you not take care of leap year, Ray? Yeah, I did. It's in there. Yeah. Check it out. France. It's a really great devotional. It's one of my favorites to give out, actually. It's not just good in content, but it looks nice.
SPEAKER_03It does too.
SPEAKER_02I like the cover.
Confession, Patience, And Driving Frustrations
SPEAKER_03Guys, ever got a confession to make. Kind of. Is that all right? Kind of fast. I am just got to get this off my chest. I am the most patient, loving, sweet, no, seriously, sweet, nicest guy until somebody drives slowly in front of me.
SPEAKER_02Ah.
SPEAKER_03And suddenly I realize I'm a sinner and I need the cross. Am I the only one that feels like that?
SPEAKER_00I'm the one in front of you.
SPEAKER_02Well, I went through a version of that on my way down the stairs to be on time as Mark Spence. What do you mean? I wanted you to be safe. Kind of delay me.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for your confession, you owe me 36 Mother Mary's. 36 what? Mother Mary's isn't what you're saying. Holy Mary Mother, Holy Mary Mary.
SPEAKER_02Guadalupe. Mother Mary's Venice. All right, friends, don't forget Jesus in red and Living Waters mug and Emma Study Bible, uh, Living Waters TV, all that Living Waters. That's eating Frosted Flakes.com.
SPEAKER_00Is that serial blocking the view of the camera? I hope? From seeing Easy's. I would imagine you ever guys would be. From seeing you? From seeing Easy.
SPEAKER_02All right. We'll remove it.
SPEAKER_00Oh no, please don't be interested in hearing.
SPEAKER_03Bump him a musket. Bump him. What was I thinking?
SPEAKER_00I'm sorry, guys. I messed up when I'm just gonna do it. Notice how peaceful it is when Easy's not here.
unknownI'm back!
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_02All right, brands! Oh, and don't forget the podcast YouTube channel. By the way, what with the pots on the table? Ray?
Coffee, Tea, And Setting The Table
SPEAKER_03Oh, we just needed something to distract from Easy's face. This is a cup of pot of tea, this green one, and a pot of coffee. By the way, around.
SPEAKER_02This is new, friends. We're gonna start, we're gonna actually start bringing. No, don't destroy the chair. Guys, Easy is not happening today. Hey, destroy the chair. I'm playing. Yeah, so there's coffee.
SPEAKER_03Coffee and tea. I should have figured that because of the case.
SPEAKER_02So this is gonna be our new MO on the podcast. We're gonna actually bring out each episode, hopefully, a pot of coffee, a pot of tea. We're gonna try new coffees and teas.
SPEAKER_03So and see which is the perfect coffee.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So uh, Oscar, what what did you brew today?
SPEAKER_01This is a cup of coffee from Passenger. It's one of their lighter roasts. Uh, they're a really good uh brewing company. Roaster. They're the really good roaster.
SPEAKER_02Were you sniffing it?
SPEAKER_01I was, yeah. It's got um, it's very citrusy. Okay, right. You gonna try it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Do you have some?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, it's gonna blow up. Okay, what about the?
SPEAKER_01That smells like cardboard. Tell us about the tea, Oscar. The tea, I have no idea, honestly. We just gotta be honest with you. Who put the tea together? Yeah, Phoebe put the tea together. I don't know what she put in there. All right, let's see here. I can make something up though. Is that black coffee? These are really nice pots.
SPEAKER_03I'm not gonna like that.
SPEAKER_01But let it, okay, it's gonna be too warm right now. Give it like five minutes. Let it cool down and then have a sip.
SPEAKER_03Thank you, man.
SPEAKER_01These are really cool pots, Oscar, too.
SPEAKER_03Oh this is gonna hit me. It's like molasses.
Naming The Loneliness Crisis
SPEAKER_02Wow, this smells really good.
SPEAKER_03Who's that teal coffee?
SPEAKER_02Or is that orange spice? That's good. I just need honey, but oh well. She's not. All right, friends today. How's the coffee, right? I'm not gonna touch it. It's got no stuff on it. Well, do a little sip. Not yet, not yet. Not yet. Why?
SPEAKER_01It's not honey, it's too warm.
SPEAKER_03It smells weird.
SPEAKER_01I'm sure our listeners are loving this.
SPEAKER_00There goes the glasses.
SPEAKER_02Oh man, I gotta find that. That's really good tea. It really is. That's good tea. All right. Enjoy the motor oil, Ray. Today, friends, we're talking about the loneliness crisis. Why brotherhood, or sisterhood for that matter, is dying. Why is it dying, guys? Uh, fellowship, connection, closeness. We've we've touched on some of this stuff before on the podcast, but it's uh it's a little more dangerous than I think people realize. Isolation.
Social Media’s Comparison Trap
Soldiers, Purpose, And The Great Commission
SPEAKER_00Um let me go first. I'm gonna I'm gonna go back to social media. I'm gonna go back to that picture perfect family that you see on Instagram and uh the the Navarro household who gets professional photos done, and we only post amazing things. And when we go from person to person who's always posting uh the most amazing thing, you know, there's this self-reflection that's taking place, right? My my wife didn't make that meal. You're always posting about your wife making you amazing meals. My wife doesn't make meals like this, and I start to go inward, I start to get some resentment. Um, and then you start posting your kids. Oh, you got perfect kids, they're all walking with God. Great. I got a wayward one. Right? And so social media, I think, has added, it's not the problem, but it has added to this problem. And so we start comparing ourselves to other people, and we can find ourselves alone. Ever been feeling felt alone in the midst of a crowded room? Right? You're just like, look at all these people laughing. What are you laughing about? What are you smiling about? Don't you know I have real issues and trials going on inside of my life? And if I share these issues, because what do we do? We we joke with each other so much that if I share, maybe you're gonna make a joke out of what I'm going through. Right? Or or maybe what I'm going through, you just don't understand what I'm going through. Because I've never heard you talk about this sort of an angle inside of your life. And maybe I'm the one-off. I'm that one-off that nobody understands, nobody can relate to me, and I certainly can't relate to them because I do not live in an Instagram world. Hence, I'm lonely in the midst of a crowd.
SPEAKER_03So are we talking about the body of Christ or the world here? Because it's got the word brotherhood. God, godly brotherhood. How to rebuild godly brotherhood, because it's a huge difference.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
Privatization Of Leisure And Alarming Stats
SPEAKER_03The the ungodly people have got a reason to be lonely. Yeah. They're without God, they're without hope. Under the sentence of death, and they've got a reason to be depressed, but within the body of Christ, we shouldn't really have this. And let me tell you why. Tell us why. I don't think many people get lonely in the military. I don't think soldiers are lonely. Why? Because they're so busy and they're thrust together in a purpose, a sole purpose. It's when they get out of the military that they get depressed and they're committing suicide so often. And if we see ourselves within the body of Christ with an agenda to see people saved from a very real hell, then we shouldn't let anything hold us back because we've got this gr this commission. We're soldiers of Christ, and we should be always abounding at the work of the Lord, knowing our labor is not in vain. So we shouldn't have time to think of our loneliness when we think of people going to hell. It's like getting upset, you've got an itch when you're on the light boats of the Titanic, and all around you, people are drowning. You've got to get your priorities straight. So I think that's one key to be striving together for the faith of the gospel as Christians. The world lonely, depressed, suicidal, but within the body of Christ, if we take our Great Commission seriously and we're always laboring for the Lord as soldiers of Christ, I think half these problems be pushed into the background.
SPEAKER_02Am I wrong? So you're saying, Ray, basically priorities and purpose. But I do have a question on that because I I agree that busyness can um can can help to sort of quell that feeling of loneliness. My first question would be is it is it really resolving it though, in the sense that um, you know, does it make up for what what I'd like us to talk about, and that is having deep connection with with other believers. And and yes, this is regarding believers, I would say. I think my second question would be though, you do have those believers, because like soldiers aren't alone, right? They're part of an army. But how many times, guys, do we hear from other believers that say, There's no one that'll go out and share the gospel with me?
SPEAKER_03That's true.
SPEAKER_02So they're alone. I mean, they're out still doing it, most of them, but man, you know, that discouragement you face and and all that.
SPEAKER_03But that's what I'm saying. The body of Christ should be a great army. It should be you got a church of a thousand, five hundred should be out on a Friday night reaching out to the lost. Instead, it's five in a church that size, and that's tragic. It's because we've lost sight of our commission.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, someone recently told me about uh their evangelism group. I think they said yeah, and they they go, yeah, you know, it's it's not that big. And I think I think it says we like 50 or 60 people, you know, went out and shared that's why I go, What?
SPEAKER_04That's incredible. You don't understand. Like, send us a photo.
Pets, Rejection, And Cheap Comfort
SPEAKER_01Yeah, really. So yeah. I think uh Mark, I I think you're hitting on something really good, which is um, you're right, you know, loneliness. I think it's important to recognize that loneliness has always been a struggle, but that it's increased over time. And uh I think it was Nicholas Carr that talk put points out that media consumption and entertainment has shifted from the public life to the private life. So if you think about like the 50s, 40s, 50s, and 60s, when you got home after work, you went into your front lawn, you went into your downtown area to socialize, to communicate, to grab the newspaper, you interacted with somebody. If you're gonna go to the movies, you would go there. And then radio developed and television developed, and you went from entertaining yourself outside to entertaining yourself inside. Uh, The Atlantic, in an article in 2020, called it the privatization of leisure. And they pointed out that after COVID, 70% of restaurant sales are now takeout. So even the process of usually going out to eat with friends, people are now just door dashing it and staying at home alone in their own homes. Movies used to text and call a friend, hey, let's go watch a movie tonight. Now you're streaming it. Seven hours. Men spend seven hours watching TV for every one hour they spend hanging out with at least one other person. Women who are single, they data says they spend more time engaging with their pet cats and dogs than they do with people in their life. Uh we spend nine, we have we are awake for 900 minutes out of the day on average, and the average person spends 270 to 380 minutes on a screen. That's 30% of your day looking at a screen.
SPEAKER_03Like we are at the moment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Uh one sociologist calls this the century of solitude. And there's quite a bit of consequences. You mentioned being alone in a public room. Nicholas Carr was kind of the guy that coined that phrase in his book, Superbloom. He also says this we used to be present with our friends and reflective in our downtime. Now our social time is haunted by the possibility that something more interesting is happening somewhere else. And our downtime is contaminated by streams and posts of texts of people doing things without us.
SPEAKER_03But it's only gonna get it's only gonna get worse, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Well, and let me say it has gotten worse. Um, in 1990, there were only about 3% of men that said they had no close friends. Now it's 15%. So you've got a five-fold jump. And what's interesting is, you know, we think technology that's supposed to connect us would make us less lonely, right? Instant access to people and stuff. But man, we've said this how many times? You cannot replace personal face-to-face interaction.
SPEAKER_03It can't be replaced. So why do you think people that choose a cat and a dog to a person? I've got my thoughts.
SPEAKER_02Well, cats and dogs will love you basically no matter what. And they're not gonna do hundreds where they're gonna be. Oh, chickens.
SPEAKER_03Sounds good. Um you don't get rejected by a cat or a dog. Well, maybe a cat, but a dog. And people are afraid of rejection and stepping out and meeting new people.
SPEAKER_01Well, you make a good really good point because uh the scripture tells us that that our community should be sharpening us. They should make the our community, the people around us, should be sh helping shape us into becoming better human beings, more like Christ. And a dog or a cat is sort of an easy allusion to social comfort without the discomfort that shapes and refines us. Right.
Image Of God And The Need For Communion
SPEAKER_02Well put. Well, and I mean, I think it's become evident how much value has been placed on cats and dogs and animals and pets by just kind of how people will cringe at the thought of you know, maybe having your dog outside as a hypothetical, you know. I I'm just saying, look, I I love my dog. We've had our dog six years, she's amazing, but she's a dog. She knows about who was it? We asked the question, was it you, Ray? Would you say if you had a drowning neighbor? Yes, or a drowning dog, your dog drowning and dog and you don't like your neighbor. Yeah. And people say a lot of people said, Save the dog. Save the dog.
SPEAKER_03That's insane. Yeah, that's crazy. So, you know, there there is the product of evolution when you think about it. The survival of the footest. What are you gonna say? The primate that you don't like or the dog that you do like.
SPEAKER_02Mark, how much would you say this correlates to man being made in the image of God? The community within the trinity.
Alone With God vs. Dangerous Isolation
Vulnerability And Being Fully Known
SPEAKER_00No, that's good. I didn't consider that, but you're absolutely right. You know, we are created in the image of God. God is communing uh with the Father, is communing with the Son and with the Spirit continually before uh time was created and we were created for fellowship. I think a lot of times we preach uh the gospel as fire insurance when in reality, though that it offers that fire insurance, it's so much more that you've been called into a relationship. You've been called into communion with God. I mean, just let let that just boggle your mind for just a moment. And so we we we run from that, you know, absolutely. Uh John Owen, he said, the enemy likes you to be alone, for it is there that he can whisper his lies without being interrupted. Oh let me say it again. The enemy likes you to be alone, for it is there he can whisper his lies without being interrupted. Right? So I isolation, it feels safe until you realize that the enemy likes you alone. The enemy wants you to be alone. Nobody knows you, nobody understands what you're going through. And 1 Peter 5:8, be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary, the devil, he walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. The enemy wants you to be alone because there you get inside your own head. No, listen, there's a difference. We should be comfortable in being alone. What I mean by that is if you only find your comfort when you're driving along, that there has to be noise. I think that there's you know somewhat of a danger there. You should be comfortable in driving along and not listening to anything. Right. Definitely. And just communing with God and just fellowshipping with God. You know, uh, Brother Lawrence, he wrote a book uh practicing the presence of God. I not that I commend everything about the book, but the premises of the book is really, really great. That if we live with the mentality that Christ is with us through every step, every red light, every conversation, every bite of food, if we are mindful and cognizant of the fact that Christ is with me right now, you'll never feel alone, even though you might be alone. Right? So there's a difference between being lonely and seeking after that loneliness and not allowing anybody inside of your world. And there's a danger there, right? Because the enemy does his best work when you're alone, when you're not listening to the Lord, and you can listen to just the quacky thoughts that are gonna come inside your head. There's a difference between that. So we we have to be careful with that, right? So we need to step into community before the enemy steps into our silence. Step into community, step in and open yourself up and make yourself available so people can speak into your life. People should know. Let me ask you this do your closest friends, whoever they are, a closest friend, do they know what your greatest struggles are? That shows you if you are living life alone on an island, or if you're living life the way Christ has designed you to live. Now, there's obviously that there's a response to that saying, Well, what am I supposed to do? I have nobody in my life. I want that Jonathan David relationship, but there's nobody like that. Then comes vulnerability. Yeah. You you gotta be vulnerable. You gotta be willing to take that risk, that step of faith, and say, Man, I want to share something with you that I've never shared with anyone, or I want to share with you what I'm going through. I can I do that? Am I safe to do that? Where you're not sharing with your wife, you're not sharing with your friends, you're not sharing with anyone other than Christ, because I need somebody to lift up my arms because I feel like I have nowhere else to go. And I think there's safety there.
SPEAKER_02Man, there's something about breaking through that barrier of maybe pride or hesitation to be open. Like when you have a brother or for the ladies listening, a sister in your life, and you get to that point where you finally open up, it's almost contagious because more likely than not, they're gonna do the same with you. It's like, but someone has to take that first step.
SPEAKER_03I did this morning and it didn't work. What'd you do? Driving with a driver in front of you that's slow, and I said it makes me impatient, but you guys never get impatient with drivers in front of you.
SPEAKER_02You're ridiculous. Can you be impatient?
SPEAKER_03Totally alone. Um, listen to C.S. Lewis. No, he's gone. But listen to what he wrote. We are born helpless. As soon as we're fully conscious, we discover loneliness. We need others physically, emotionally, and intellectually. We need them if we're to know anything, even ourselves. And that's because we're creatures of love. God is love and we're made in his image. And speaking of that, and don't steal my thunder, guys, Sue and I are watching a movie last night. It's a romantic movie, and right at the end, the lead woman turns to the guy I'd been searching for. He found her, and she said to him, Zach, I love you so much. So I turned to Sue and said, Why didn't you say that to me? And she says, Zach, I love you so much.
SPEAKER_02Let's go. Sue coming out with the weather.
Secular Monks And Curated Loneliness
SPEAKER_03I thought that was great. I said, You didn't say much, but when you do say something, it's very cool. It made me laugh. That's funny. But we are. We're creatures that need love. And when we're isolated, you know, you put a prisoner in in isolation, it just sends them insane. And it's because we're made in God's image and we need human fellowship. Not dogs or cats, but human fellowship.
Wealth, Singleness, And Emptiness
SPEAKER_01Yeah. There's a there's something happening on social media right now that I find very interesting, which is there's only there's like this celebration of a monastic lifestyle. Andrew Tuggett cars it, Andrew Taggart calls it secular monks. And so he notices that, especially amongst men, there's no shortage shortage of social media influencers that are celebrating loneliness. Uh, these guys are delaying marriage to past 30. They post constantly about their physical optimization, their bigger bank accounts, their morning routines of cold plunging, intermittent fasting, meditation boot camps. They have like these, these are the guys that are posting that like, here's my morning routine. And if you notice, they wake up alone, they meditate alone, they journal alone, they take their supplements alone, they cold plunge alone. There's never a friend, a spouse, or a child around. And it's celebrated as like this luxurious monasticism. Oh man. And I would say this, dude, I know that guy because I was that guy. I was in my 20s and I did not want to get married and I did not want to have kids. I was making a quarter million dollars a year. I had a Rolex watch on my wrist and I had an ocean view in my home. And I will tell you that no matter how curated those social media accounts are, they are struggling with loneliness. How do I know that? Because as you mentioned, Mark, and as you alluded to, Ray, we are made for creation. Genesis, we are we are made for community. We are made for community with God and with each other. And loneliness is a byproduct of the fall. Because of the fall, we had fractured relationships with each other. We see that between Adam and Eve. Because of the fall, we have a fractured relationship with God's creation, thorns and thistles. But as you alluded to, more importantly, because of the fall, we have a fractured relationship between us and God. And the beauty of the gospel is the reconciliation between us and people, between us and his creation, but primarily between us and God. In other words, that that luxurious monasticism only works on Instagram. It is not going to work for you in this real life. The best explanation, I've heard it once explained, that it's it's like Sisyphus. If you guys remember the Greek story of Sisyphus, he is condemned to a hell.
SPEAKER_02I know exactly what Ray thought, but I'm not gonna say it. Go ahead, keep going.
SPEAKER_01He is condemned to a hell, and his hell is pushing a boulder up a hill for all of eternity. And as soon as he thinks he gets somewhere, the boulder rolls back down the hill and he starts over and over and over again. And uh, I can't remember who the modern philosopher is that pointed out that modernity is essentially living the life of Sisyphus, that there is no success, that there is no actual outcome, that the only pleasure we can find is in the process. And so we have to accept this Sisyfician lifestyle of just sorry, Oscar, constantly pushing a boulder up a hill with our lives. That's the monastic lifestyle that's being offered on social media. Work, work, work, work, perfect yourself, perfect yourself, die. Wow, and it's leaving you lonely.
SPEAKER_02Okay, Oscar. Before before I tell you why I laughed, um So was that your experience? Like, I mean, you you were living the dream, but did you did you feel that loneliness still? Absolutely. Okay, so you were basically you were posturing.
Not Good To Be Alone: Before The Fall
SPEAKER_01You were and I I was already a Christian, mind you. Oh, you were at that time? I wasn't well, yeah. I was I was posturing before I was a Christian, and a lot of that mindset I adopted into my Christian singleness. I was the guy that showed up at church that loved the Lord, that loved the church community, but wanted to be alone. I never wanted to get married, I never wanted to have kids. But it wasn't what people thought it was in terms of you just, yeah, I'm cool, you know. I positioned it as like being so confident in myself that I didn't need other people, which was fool. It was, yeah, it was a facade, even to my own self. I think I believed it for a time, but uh, I mean, man, I fooled myself. Like the Lord has done the best work in me through my marriage and through my children. I am more like Christ today than I was when I was single. And the primary tool, not only to my discipline, not only to my uh being formed in the image of God, but the primary tool to my joy is the relationship that I have with my wife and my kids.
SPEAKER_02Amen. Yeah, so sorry, is this a fish? Is this a fish?
SPEAKER_03No, it says, is this a fish or isn't it? Oh, is this a fish? It's been well said that um the first thing that God said that wasn't good was it's not good for man to be alone.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03God put his finger on it, but it's interesting to know that was before the fall. Wow. That's very sobering and interesting that you're not.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's why I was saying, you know, earlier to Mark in connection to the triune nature of God. You know, we talk often about how, you know, uh that like the commandments as an example are what they are because they coincide with the eternal nature of God. Right. Right? God has never been a liar, he's never been unfaithful, he's never been a thief. And so from that it comes forth. And so God has always been in community from all eternity. And so it would make sense pre-fallen. It's really interesting you point that out, Ray, right? Because it's not like, oh, man's fallen, now he shouldn't be alone, now something's bad. No, from the very beginning, it was obviously a part of God's divine design. Man is meant to be in community.
SPEAKER_03God said to Adam, J.K.
SPEAKER_02What I'm gonna make you. Imagine he wakes up, right?
SPEAKER_01And his response was, Whoa, man.
Bound Together: Biblical Models Of Friendship
SPEAKER_00Uh John Calvin wrote that believers must be bound together by the tie of unity. No man matures in isolation. God uses people to strengthen people. Even David, the warrior king, needed Jonathan. Even Paul needed Timothy, and even Christ chose to walk with the twelve.
SPEAKER_03Then I need you guys. Keep me on the straight and narrow.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah. You need major help. Um that reminds me of the book of Depechmud. People are people why should it be? You and I should get along so awfully. That's all I know. It's obvious you hate me, though. I don't understand. We haven't even met, so what could I have done? That's what I can't understand. You guys call me a bad singer. I'm a terrible singer. I'm sorry, everybody.
SPEAKER_02Depeche mode. Everyone knows. Throwing us back to depeche mode. Wow. Ray, do you know who depech mode is?
SPEAKER_03No, I was busy reaching out to the lost one.
SPEAKER_02Dancing to do evangelism mode. That's what I'm saying. But what about like fly robin fly?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's alright. If you want to mock someone, you play that.
SPEAKER_02Fly robin fly.
SPEAKER_01I cannot believe we have you listeners.
SPEAKER_02I think it's listener at this point. Um, but guys, look, I think there's also that that aspect that scripturally speaks to why some people are alone, right? Proverbs 18:1. A man who isolates himself seeks his own desire. He rages against all wise judgment. So there is an intentional isolation that happens because bottom line, people don't want to hear it.
SPEAKER_03Bottom line, Bob.
Isolation’s Perils And Fringe Online Communities
SPEAKER_02I want to do what I want to do, and I don't want to hear otherwise. Yeah. And that's a scary place to do it.
SPEAKER_03That's human nature, though, isn't it? Really? Basic human, carnal nature.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. My own way, my own path. And that's the thing, right? Because it's not even like, okay, yeah, let me hear people out and and get their ideas. Because I'm wise enough to think maybe their input is going to keep me from danger. But when I when I think of the Proverbs 18:1, man or woman, I'm envisioning someone with their fingers plugging their ears, running around, you know, just I don't want to hear it. Because if I hear it, then now maybe I'm obligated to reverse course. Or if I'm I hear it, that might create conviction in my heart, and I don't want that. And so, what do you guys think? You do you see that? I mean, can you think of either yourself doing it at some point or others that kind of roll that way?
Helen Keller, Self-Forgetfulness, And Serving
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think it's I think what you're alluding to is the false gospel narrative of our day almost endorses the loneliest epidemic that we're we're experiencing because throughout history, the traditional view of what it meant to have an identity was to look outward and upward. You looked towards your family, your faith, your community, and you looked up towards God. And the modern view of the self is now to look inward, to determine who you are based off of your feeling and emotion, and then to demand acceptance outward. And so by its nature, one of those stories will invite you into a community of being known and loved, and another one of those stories will invite you towards isolation. And I also think that a part of the problem is that so much of what we see here is now people are spending so much time alone that they end up getting sucked into these fringe communities online that aren't real, but they feel real. And what those fringe communities do is it allows you to turn the darkest part of your heart into the most celebrated part of your life. And that is a very dangerous way of living. This is why we need real people and real community, not just a real community, but a real gospel community, so that our hearts aren't shaped to accept the deepest part of ourselves, but that our hearts are shaped to accept the light that has come into the world, which is Christ.
SPEAKER_02Wow. You know, that there was a oh I'm sorry, Ray Well. No, no, I can get another breath. I was gonna say, look, it's interesting. What? Earthquake. Earthquake, the work building's still being worked on. Rotundo. Um uh there are man, there are tr let me put it this way, there are traces of God's original design, even in man's perversion of them. And what I mean by that is, you know, for example, we we talk about sex, right? I mean, it it's so it's been so perverted and so twisted that a lot of times new believers that lived in that immorality have a hard time believing sex could ever be wonderful and beautiful and clean, but it is because it's God's idea and design, and through it, billions of image bearers have been brought about. So, so it's the same thing like with community and fellowship. I recently was was reading about this man who was arrested because he was he was talking about how he was going to molest little children, but he was doing this in a community online chat forum with other people, and and that's my example. Like, why would you do that? But it shows like there's still that right desire to be in community, but it can be twisted and perverted even by others.
SPEAKER_01That goes back to the point earlier, which is that we there that's how wild social media is, is that there is a community for every perverted desire you can find in your own heart.
SPEAKER_02Right. Yeah, and it's like you know, you would think someone who's doing that would want to keep that secret and private, so shameful. But even on that wicked level, people have found an ability to connect because there's a desire to connect, but now it's it's related to something perverted, you know, and twisted.
SPEAKER_00You know, even the prison systems. You think when somebody does something so heinous in the prison system, they separate them from everybody else for solitary confinement, right? And it's not just because they're a danger to someone or a danger to themselves, right? No, you're we're going to isolate you, and there's all kinds of studies demonstrating how people have gone insane because they are completely alone. No.
SPEAKER_03Right. This is my big moment. Stephen guess who this is. It's a very famous person.
SPEAKER_01Reconfort.
Joy In Mission And Power For The Weary
SPEAKER_03No. This is um sometimes it's true, a sense of isolation unfolds me like a cold mist, mist, as I sit alone and wait at life's shut gate. Beyond there is light and music and sweet companionship, but I may not enter. Fate, silent, pitiless, bars the way. Silence sits immense upon my soul. Some atheist. No atheist. No.
SPEAKER_02Not Spurgent.
SPEAKER_03No, this is a believer. This is a Christian.
SPEAKER_02Uh I give up.
SPEAKER_03Tell me if you give up. Oscar?
SPEAKER_01I never give up, but I want to know the answer.
SPEAKER_03Helen Keller. Ooh. And listen to what she said. And those who don't know who Helen Keller is, she was born blind and deaf.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
Practical Steps To Rebuild Brotherhood
SPEAKER_03So she had no, she never saw colour, never heard music, never heard a human voice. And this is what she said. Then hope comes, or then comes hope with a smile and whispers, there is joy and self-forgetfulness. So I try to make the light of others' eyes and my son, the music in others' ears my sympathy, the smile on others' lips, my happiness, because she would touch lips. That's how she tells. And so the lesson for us is here is someone who's got a reason to fall into the pit of loneliness and bemail or bewail her fate that God gave her. Wow. And yet we as human beings and as Christians not only have our name written in heaven, but we can see, we can hear, we can touch, we can t bake something, take it to our neighbor. And we're talking the other day, the couple that Cam dismissed that came here, they said the key to getting out of that pit of despair was to think of others, not yourself. And Jesus said that himself. He said, You you wash other people's feet. Happy are you if you know these things and and do them. And so that's the key to getting rid of loneliness in yourself. Think of loneliness in others. Think of the despair of the lost. Think of your neighbours who could Mark, you're always taking stuff to your neighbours in easy. And I don't know about you, but Oscar.
SPEAKER_02Oscar hates his neighbours.
SPEAKER_03But that's such a key, and it's such a lesson here that Helen Keller could say something like that. Because the thought of being in a white room for an hour for me drives me crazy. I remember once thinking I was ever thrown into prison, I'd just work out until I get a body like easy. So I would, I would just, you know, and I remember I had to wait for a doctor for about 20 minutes. I thought, this is my opportunity. I'm in a white room, I'm going to work out. 10 minutes, I was sick of it and just sat there and thought, I'm going crazy. This doctor was a good thing.
SPEAKER_02Did the doctor think when he walked in, right?
SPEAKER_03Okay, you're sick. This is about this is about 20 years ago. But uh it it really shows that uh if if we can just lift our eyes up to the to the sun and the the sky and the trees and the flowers and the birds and think of music and color and friends and family and fellowship, all these things should lift us out of loneliness and we begin thinking about this, the special, especially their eternal salvation. I think it's such a key.
SPEAKER_02I love that, Ray. Look, friends, for those of you listening, I just I just have to say, like sometimes in the podcast, as we talk, things can easily get missed, or you're busy, or you're kind of preoccupied with other things. Go back, rewind this if you really didn't catch what Ray just said. Because that's not, it's not trite, it's not light. It's key. It's essential. And let me just say this too, not just because it takes the sting out of loneliness, but also because when you're in that state of mind, it stirs you to connect to others, to reach out to others, to impact others who are lonely and who don't have Christ or who are believers but are just going through pain and hurt. So, so like, and that's what I love about your life, Ray, is that you you do have a constant joy. And I honestly think that comes from you pushing yourself to continue to care about the loss and share the gospel. It's it it's a source of encouragement in and of itself. Like when you share the gospel with a lost person, not that there's never tough encounters and you get discouraged, but overall, you're you're kind of revived and rejuvenated, wouldn't you say?
Plans For The Anxious And Showing Up
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. I've been once I preached for about two hours. The wizard didn't come to the local square, so I took his hour and I preached until I was absolutely exhausted because there's no amplification. Got off my ladder, stood there, and someone came up and says, How to be born, how do you get born again? And I went, and you know, the dunamis that's in you. Yeah. And I just like I wasn't tired at all because I love this person and it brought me out of my own my own fatigue. And that's the miracle of the dynamic power of God that lives within us.
SPEAKER_00So can we create a couple bullet points here, perhaps, guys? We're talking about why the brotherhood is lonely. Well, how do we get out of that? So, gotcha, I'm with you. I I'm I'm the one pacing back and forth. Now give me the solution to move forward. What can I practically do today where I won't be lonely tomorrow, or if it's a process where I won't be lonely next week. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Got a got a chat. Say give me ten things I can do to help other people today. It'll come up with ten things that'll make you feel real guilty.
SPEAKER_02Let me say as a caveat real You should be feeding the boar. Chat is the new law. No gossip. Let me say as a caveat, because Ray, you mentioned Helen Keller, she she definitely had some concerning views. Yes. Um I think she was pro-abortion and other things like that. So I just want to. Am I the only one of the people that doesn't know who Helen Keller is?
SPEAKER_03You don't know?
SPEAKER_01Stop. No. I remember I remember her being referenced in a Saturday Night Live episode.
SPEAKER_03There's a crazy movie that when I say crazy, it's just a very emotional movie where it uh talked about a lady who was brought into the family because the her parents they spoiled her because she was deaf and blind as a child. They they didn't discipline her at all.
SPEAKER_01Helen Keller?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. When she when she grew up, she was a teenager. She was an absolute brat. They used to throw her food across. She was just so angry about everything. She'd grab her food and throw it across the room of the kitchen and just lash out with like her fingernails and everything. And this lady came in and she trained her. Ann Frank? Was it? No, no, it wasn't it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well. And Ann. Anne Van Croft and Sullivan. Ann Sullivan. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Anne Frank was in Germany. It's a different.
SPEAKER_02But Ray, should we give Oscar the context?
SPEAKER_03She was deaf and blind.
SPEAKER_02Learn to talk.
Greeters, Service, And Staying To Connect
SPEAKER_03Yeah, let me tell you. Deaf blind and mute. Yeah. She taught her to touch her voice box and her lips at the same time. Wow. And it she took her from being, without exaggerating, an animal to being a compassionate person. Yeah. That movie's powerful. It's very powerful.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, it was like she would do like uh it was the vocal cords, and then she would also do hand signals, like hand signs, and she would feel them. And it broke through to her with water. I think it was the word water.
SPEAKER_04That's right.
SPEAKER_02And then everything, I mean it's an emotional part of the movie when everything comes alive.
SPEAKER_03It's black and white, isn't it? It's black and white. Look it up. Helen Keller, a movie. It really is worth watching. Is there a book? I'd rather read the book. You'd rather read the book. It hasn't the emotion.
SPEAKER_02Oscar, it's amazing because she ended up becoming an author. She became a lecturer. She became one of the most inspirational people in all of history. We should have her on the podcast. She did. The miracle worker.
SPEAKER_03The miracle worker, yes. Miracle worker. You need patience when you watch it because it just seemed to go on and on when she stayed an animal. And then with just pumping water, all of a sudden the light comes on. She realizes that Anne Bancroft loves her or Anne with her.
SPEAKER_02And you know, that has a relation again to community in that, you know, another person that Anne Sullivan persevered with her and then broke through to her. And she, you know, she was by her side until Anne Sullivan died. She died before Helen Keller. But she was by her side until then. And no doubt, and I use this as an analogy of what it tells us, you know, in First Peter, whom having not seen you love, though you don't see him now, but you rejoice with joy, inexpressable and full of glory. She never saw Ann Sullivan's face, never heard her voice once. She primarily experienced her through the sense of touch. Wow. And yet you know that she loved no one on earth more than her and rejoiced over no one more than her. It's like us. We've never seen the Lord heard his voice, but he's touched us, changed us. We love him really good.
Repent, Reprioritize, And Invest In People
SPEAKER_01So I I Mark, I love that you um really want to pull us down to the practical and the question that you asked, and I don't want to lose sight of that. And and I would say, let me let me move from gospel to practical because I do think the application of the gospel is super important in answering your question, which is we have to remember, because I'm thinking about the Christian, I know because we've received these emails. Um, I know that there are Christians who are struggling to be a part of a gospel community, a church. Either there's not a biblical one in their neighborhood or for whatever situation. I know there are people that listen to the podcast that feel alone. And the first place that I would turn you to is to Jesus because Jesus did not save us from a distance. He came into this world, he incarnated him into our world. He dealt with sin and suffering and poverty, he dealt with torment and even death on the cross uh to reunite us with himself. And so, first and foremost, the answer to loneliness, because as we talked about before, you can be in a church and still feel lonely. And the gospel is the key to unlock loneliness, as you all alluded to. We are never alone when we are found in Christ. And if you're a Christian and you feel lonely, is it possible that there's an aspect of the gospel that you've yet to come to understand? Discipline yourself to understanding that reality of the gospel, that you are no longer alone ever, that you can be isolated in prison and you are not alone because Christ is with you. Now, for the broader, more pragmatic, I do think it's so important that we talk about meaningful membership at a church. Um, gospel-shaped community. As we said before, and an aspect of loneliness is that our sin nature, even though we hate being alone, our sin nature will actually drive us to loneliness because we are afraid of being known. But as Timothy Keller said, you cannot be fully loved until you are fully known. To be 99% known is to still be unknown. And so, as you alluded to, like, we need to be a part of a gospel community in which confession and repentance and discipleship and sanctification is a focal point. People need to know us and love us. And I think another aspect for those a part of a community, a church community, shared leadership is important to disciple people into growing into a local church and to be a part of disciple making. I think these are important aspects to fight against the loneliness epidemic that we're talking about.
Closing Reminders And Listener Invite
SPEAKER_02And let me just say, Oscar, I'm sitting here on the brink of exploding because when when you said Jesus, like my heart welled up with this indescribable joy. Because when you know him, when you've come to know him, like as you say that, like, you know, and I'm holding back the tears because it's like, you know, we we have that moment when we all finally came to know him. Like, what was a worthless name, word that was a blasphemy regularly rolling off of our tongues and lips, became the most precious word, the most precious name in all of existence to us. And what I love is that he is ultimately the answer to everything, always.
SPEAKER_00You know, it's funny you say that I remember being in college when I became a Christian, and I remember uh signing my name at Golden West College. I was signing my name on papers and I became a Christian back in the same class, and I'm no longer signing my name, but I'm I'm signing Jesus. I'm writing Jesus.
SPEAKER_03Are you mopping me? Spence?
SPEAKER_02Are you stealing one of my is that on your yeah do I get accused of everything? Yes, you get accused of everything. Now you're even if it's genuine. Yeah, yeah. Do I get accused of everything?
SPEAKER_03Because I've often said that I I used to sign my name on a doodle, just Ray Comfort, Ray Comfort, Ray Comfort. The day I got saved, I started writing Jesus. And I thought, what am I doing? And the Holy Spirit speaks of Christ. And so you weren't mocking me, you were No, sincere. Please put a marker on this podcast. Should I turn on those lights? I was just noticing that our lighting is on the book. That'll make all the difference.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Oh, Mark, I love that. Look, I would I would say, um, I would say this to Mark in answer to your question. I would say, first of all, you have to be radically proactive. Okay. So the saying we've cited many times, you will always be who you've always been, if you always do what you've always done. So, like today, you have to institute a plan. Not tomorrow, not next week, not later. Like you're hearing this podcast right now. If you're not driving, pull out your phone. If you are and you can do audio record, whatever, go to notes if you're not driving and and and note it. Record it if you can't. Here's what I'm going to do to change this thing in my life that is called isolation. And don't hesitate to be brutal with yourself, to call it in some instances, utter selfishness. Because it is in some instances, where we're not willing, because it's not just about you, you're depriving others of the richness that comes from what you have to offer as a fellow believer. So call it what it is, repent of that selfishness, come up with a plan, and then change the trend, change your habits, right? Just say, okay, well, here's what I'm gonna do. And start to, if you don't talk to people, talk to people. If you don't invite people to your house, invite people to your house. If you don't take someone out to lunch to just open up and get to know them, my son Luke is so good with this. Like he's he is like a chronic fellowshipper. Like, oh yeah, I went out with this guy and this guy, elder so-and-so, and this guy. I'm like, what? What in the world? But I love it that at a young age, he's made this a habit in his life. So I would say those are key, right?
SPEAKER_03Um, one thing I've found to be a delight, and I've done it for years, it's like carry gift cards in my car and tracks and whatever. If I see workers on the side of the road, Calchan's workers, people digging holes on a hot day, I pull up to them and go like this. Oh, come over here. They come walking over and I say, You guys like some in and out cards? And they go, well, because no one cares about people that are digging holes on the side of the road. But they doesn't matter how tough that looking they are and intimidating, they all just melt and become very friendly and nice.
SPEAKER_02Is it like the way you went out and gave the guys doing the pavers water bottles that you didn't think anyone saw, but I saw on the cameras? I did it today. I think it's good.
SPEAKER_01It's fascinating that our our parents tell us to never approach somebody in a car that's like, hey kid, you want some candy? And now Ray drives up to these old men's, like, hey boys, you want an in-and-out car?
SPEAKER_00Ray's causing a cigaler when he should be driving.
SPEAKER_01He stops. No kidding. Uh, I will say this.
SPEAKER_03I do want to It's not on the freeway, guys. This is just around the streets.
SPEAKER_01As far as you know. I want to say this though, because I have a loved one, someone who I care about dearly, who struggles with social anxiety in the sense that uh it is a physical, chemical response when they go in public places that they have a panic attack.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And this person loves the Lord and they love the church and they desperately want to be a part of community. They know it's what they're made for and they want it. And I and I know that like as much as they desire to go, it's always a fight to go to church. And so, and so I just want to speak to that person. I don't want that person to feel condemned, I want that person to feel hopeful and to the point you made easy to have a plan. And the plan that I would suggest to you is the same plan that I suggested to this person, which is when you know how important it is, and so make a plan. Go with the friend. If you don't have a believing friend, invite a non-believing friend. If you don't have a non-believing friend and you're new to your neighborhood because you just moved for college or a new job or whatever, then email the church and say, could I meet with somebody one-on-one in my life, uh, in my age range? I would just love to get to know somebody so that I can meet up with them to go to church on a Sunday. Make a plan and fight this. Satan wants you to be alone and he's using those chemical imbalances to keep you alone and to continue to fight against that. I know it's hard, but it's worth it to fight against that and to be a part of a gospel community.
SPEAKER_02That's a great word, Oscar. Yeah, and and know if there's anyone out there with that struggle, you have our sympathies and compassion. But yeah, at the end of the day, you know, you you at least should seek to fight it and seek to find a remedy, you know, and I think the Lord will honor that for sure. Yeah. Um Mark, Ray, thoughts from you guys.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we've got a book on panic attacks, and if anyone wants it, they can have a free charge. Just call the operators and say, Ray said you could have this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Mark, I have a few more things, but I'd love you to weigh in on other ideas of what what can people do.
SPEAKER_00Well, I I think that uh, you know, I I mentioned earlier that you need to let your battles be known to others, right? If if no one knows your battle, then then you're you're kind of losing that first battle, right? Because as a as a brothership, as as Christians, we we are soldiers, right? And we we need to link arms, we need to be found linking arms. We need to continually ask to to meet with people for that for that cup of coffee. You know, and if you're getting no's, well, that that's not a necessarily a horrific thing. You're just getting direction now that that maybe is not the right person for you to meet with. Um, I think that we we talk about church community. Uh, I think that it's important to uh come early and just stay late. That's a good idea. To serve, right? So you go to second service, what do you do in first service? Or you come to first service, what do you do in second service? You should be uh maybe serving. You know, you have a problem with um that social anxiety. Well, why not be a greeter? Why not just go, you know what, enemy? You know, don't talk to the enemy, but you you know what, enemy? Um I'm gonna be uh Hello, enemy. I'm gonna be doing what uh what I don't feel like doing. Yeah, you know, and there's nothing wrong with that. You you know, you ask any mother who just gave birth and has a newborn baby, she's getting up in the middle of the night, not because it's easy, because it's the right thing to do. So maybe you can find yourself as a greeter, greeting people, getting to know people and people wanting to hang out with you. And then after time you become a little bit more vulnerable. Well, that's a good idea, Mark.
SPEAKER_03Just be a greeter. You don't have to chat with people, you just have to greet them, say, welcome to church. Give them a fist bump. If your hands are sweating, give them a fist bump. Do that to 200 people on a Sunday morning and overcome it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I just want to say, Mark, I love that you inserted that idea because that's the thing, right? We get in our routines, we don't think outside of the box about even a little tweak that could really change something. The thought of, hey, like because again, I go to church, I don't meet anyone. Do you do you ever come early, like beforehand, like out on the patio where there's donuts and coffee? And oh, I never thought about that. Well, well, yeah, well, you know, after church, nobody well, what do you do after church? Well, I actually leave right away. What about sticking around and you know, talking to people? It's like those little things. It's like Rachel the other day, we we were at the at the coffee shop and that there's high tables, high chairs, and so she takes a cushion with her so that she could, you know, be a little elevated uh because you know, she's petite. So because she's a comfort. Yeah, she's looking Ray's already defensive. Like, what do you gonna say about my daughter? Yeah, right, yeah, right. So, anyway, so she goes to me, it's so difficult. I to climb up on the chair after I put the pad on there, it's so high. And you make her sound like a toddler to climb up on the chair. No, seriously, these are high chairs, like it's high tables, high chairs. So I go, she's like, I she hardly gets off because when she does, it's an ordeal to get back on and sit on the cushion. So I said, I said, love, why don't you like get on the chair, put the cushion on the table, get on the chair, then kind of stand up on the little ledge on the chair and then put the cushion under you? And so she does it. She's like, ah! Like changed her whole life in the coffee shop.
SPEAKER_01You mentioned donuts. I really think we overlook the holiness of donuts.
SPEAKER_03That's terrible.
SPEAKER_02I was gonna say we should bring donuts here.
SPEAKER_03Speaking of that, um, we've been talking about men being lonely. Do women have the same problem? Or are they hey, I haven't finished the question.
SPEAKER_02We're talking of both, Ray. We're talking of both.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, but I'm thinking women are more social creatures than men. They seem to meet each other and just chat. You get men to get hey dun. Hey, you dunno, good. Hey, hey, what's up?
SPEAKER_02I would say by and large, it's more of a uh more predominantly a man issue, but women definitely deal with it as well.
SPEAKER_03You know, so the key is just to talk more.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Yeah, so I I I found a few important things. Look, repent again of self-protective isolationism, you know, unless obviously you're struggling with something, you know, um organic. Uh reprioritize your time as well. Like, think about where am I investing my time. Often we say we don't have time. No, it's so we're not making time to build those relationships and friendships. Um, again, like Mark mentioned, be vulnerable, be willing to open up and serve. That's another place where you meet people. Nothing's greater than like connecting with others as you're serving in a common cause. Evangelism being one that Ray mentioned, but also other things in the church and it it creates real community. And um, and then, you know, think about your role if you happen to be an older man or woman, of how you can pour into others. And most of us are older than someone, right? Pouring into other people. Most of us are older than some other people. Can we quote you? Profound. Very profound. Yeah. So uh there you have it, friends. And uh, whatever, whatever, and whatever. Okay, so uh don't forget Ray's lovely, lovely book. Where is it? Where'd it go? Jesus. Jesus and red. Jesus and red. 365 meditations. Don't forget to like, subscribe, share. And friends, we want to hear from you at podcast at livingwaters.com. Thoughts, questions, and very sharp, mean, harsh insults. Thank you for jumping in us for anything else? No. There you have uh mean insults. There you have it, friends. Thank you for joining in us. We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast, where we have no idea what we're doing.
