The Living Waters Podcast
Enjoy the ride with this hilarious new Podcast as hosts (Ray Comfort, Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne, Mark Spence, and Oscar Navarro) and special guests explore the pressing questions of our day with sound theology and apologetics! We would love to hear from you. How has the podcast encouraged you? Are there any subjects you’d like the guys to cover or questions you’d like them to answer? Email us at Podcast@LivingWaters.com and you may hear your feedback and questions quoted on the next episode!
The Living Waters Podcast
Ep. 381 - The Silent Epidemic of Christian Burnout
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Burnout is a silent crisis that often hides behind faithfulness, especially among those serving others while quietly running on empty. Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar confront the unseen pressure carried by pastors, leaders, and faithful believers who struggle to say no and rarely step aside to rest. The guys remind listeners that even Jesus called His disciples to come away and rest, modeling the need for both physical and spiritual renewal. Many assume those they admire are immune to exhaustion, yet the burden of ministry can quietly erode joy and clarity when limits are ignored.
The guys explore how burnout is often rooted in a lack of abiding in Christ rather than mere overwork. Mark shares that when prayer and communion with the Lord diminish, pressure mounts, and running on empty feels normal. Intentional prayer, written requests, and persistent seeking restore perspective and remind believers of God’s faithfulness. Oscar reflects on seasons of burnout tied to conflict and disappointment in ministry, recognizing that even faithful effort must be grounded in the reapplication of the gospel. Community tension, envy, and self-seeking reveal the need for repentance and a renewed vision of Christ.
The guys examine how sin and self-righteousness can quietly fuel exhaustion. Wandering thoughts and hidden rebellion rob believers of peace, while striving to earn God’s favor produces spiritual fatigue. Grace must move from concept to reality, transforming discipline into delight. Love for God and neighbor becomes the fuel that revives weary hearts, shifting focus away from perfectionism and performance. Legalism and antinomianism both distort the gospel and leave souls restless, yet adoption in Christ frees believers from slavery to self. Rest flows from knowing the love of God deeply and personally, not merely affirming it intellectually.
Finally, the guys offer practical encouragement for those carrying heavy loads. True rest involves both body and soul, embracing the Sabbath principle and admitting weakness before the Lord and trusted community. E.Z. reflects on the strain of overwhelming responsibility and the danger of carrying practical burdens alone. The guys urge believers to speak up, seek help, and humble themselves rather than suffer silently. They also call churches and families to support one another actively, lightening the load through encouragement and tangible care. Burnout does not disqualify a believer but can become an invitation to deeper dependence, renewed love, and lasting rest in Christ.
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Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro
Naming Burnout And Heart Check
SPEAKER_09I think that's what burnout is. It's a lack of application of the gospel. You you begin to lack applying it to a certain area of your life. Um, and then the second thing is so one, the reapplication of the gospel, I needed it, but also repentance. Like you guys experienced, I think, that season of life. Like I was unbeknownst to me, growing resentful, bitter, frustrated. And I probably took that out on you guys here, you know. And so I had to sit down with some of you and apologize. Just like recognizing that um that the the devil just loves when you are sinned against, the devil will use that to shape your sin. And and so I think coming out of burnout is diving deep into the goodness of God and searching your own heart of areas for repentance that you need.
SPEAKER_06Unnecessary. How many times have you heard you say that?
SPEAKER_05Just too many.
Light Banter On Accents And Words
SPEAKER_06Now, France, for those of you that don't know, this has been a word that I have uttered it's gotta be thousands of times, probably. And I especially did it when we were on our first Europe trip, season four. Italy was it? Um I can't remember, man. It was a long time ago. And uh our our sound uh brother, sound guy, Tony Tony Miles, uh he uh he loved that area of the world, but he wouldn't say Barcelona, he would say Barcelona. So I bombarded him with that. Tony, come in here on the speaker. How do you normally respond to that? Here we go. Barcelona!
SPEAKER_07Oh, you did it again. Why do you say it like that? That is not what you say.
SPEAKER_06Ah, I love it.
SPEAKER_05And you mispronounce his last name. It's smiles. What'd I say? I said smiles. Oh, not smiles. Yeah, and Tony's name is a statement.
SPEAKER_06Tony Smiles. I like that. Yeah, um, I love it. You know what it reminded me of is uh, because that is how they say it there, actually. It's not Barcelona, how we say it here. It's Barfi. Can you try that, Mark? I couldn't. I really can't. Yes, you can. Uh Ray, don't do that. You don't sound very um masculine. Barthelona. Barfilona. Barthelona. Oscar Oscar Trock. Do I have to?
SPEAKER_09Please. Sorry, say it again. Barthelona. Barthylona. That was pretty close. Let me say it again. Go ahead, go, go. Barthelona. Barthenona. Barthy. Barthenolona. Barthelona. That was it. Thank you very much. I think it's better than the original.
SPEAKER_06So thank you for tuning in to the Living Waters Podcast.
SPEAKER_05Barthelmast.
SPEAKER_06I just do it randomly at Tony every time I see him. I can't help it. Um, but it reminded me.
SPEAKER_05It's like Buddhapisht.
SPEAKER_06Oh, yeah, there's another one.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Buddhapisht. It's not Buddha Pisht.
SPEAKER_06Buddha Pisht. Some people get really snobby about that stuff. Or like Turkey. We learned it's not Turkey. Oh, Turkeya. Turkey? Turkeya. Turkeya. Turkeya. Yeah. Well, that's how I grew up saying it. Terquia in Lebanon. Oh. Yeah. But uh it reminded me of. You guys remember uh Shibboleth?
SPEAKER_05Oh, yes. That's in the Old Testament. Oh. It's also Los Angeles. That's what some people say. No.
SPEAKER_06Yes. You guys say Los Angeles. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Los Angeles is an old pronunciation.
SPEAKER_06Are you talking about Judges 12? Yeah. Stop it, I'll start looking at my notes, pretending he's sophisticated. It has a word. He is sophisticated. The Gileadites sees the fords of the Jordan. Before the Ephraimites arrived, and when any Ephraimite who escaped said, Let me cross over, the men of Gilead would say to him, Are you an Ephraimite? If he said no, then they would say to him, Then say Shibboleth. And he would say Shiboleth, for he could not pronounce it right.
SPEAKER_05Let me say something.
SPEAKER_06He would say Siboleth, not Sh. He would say sh Siboleth.
SPEAKER_05What are you talking about? No, no, no. Let me just say this, because in the Second World War, the word Bethlehem could not be said. Blenhem, Blenheim could not be said by Germans. They couldn't could that say Blenheim.
SPEAKER_06So they would do it.
SPEAKER_05They would use that word as a password.
SPEAKER_06That's what it says, where he could not pronounce it right. Then they would take him and kill him at the fords of the Jordan.
SPEAKER_05Boy.
SPEAKER_06So you guys better learn.
SPEAKER_05I say, let me say that again. Have about a second try.
SPEAKER_06Learn how to pronounce.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Man, accents. Accents are absolutely fascinating to me. You guys have a favorite accent like that you really, really like?
SPEAKER_01The American.
SPEAKER_06Oh, the right.
SPEAKER_01So English accent, I feel like anybody with an English accent immediately has like 40 more IQ points than any American.
SPEAKER_05I like Tennessee. Tennessee accent. I just fascinated by it.
SPEAKER_07I known, right?
SPEAKER_05Our friend Tom. Dials, no, no, no, no, nothing like that.
SPEAKER_09That's awful. Is that Alabama, maybe? The most beautiful accent I've ever heard is my wife's. Oh, she's from here.
SPEAKER_06She's from here. No, but there are. I actually really like the South African accent. Oh, yes. That's good. Remember uh Charles, Pastor Charles at our Mulan. This guy, it's not just the accent, but he's got the voice. He does announcements and just soothes everyone. Welcome, Kendridge this morning. Imagine how he argues with his wife. Dear, you are wrong.
SPEAKER_01Like Vincent Price with Thriller. Ooh, Vincent Price. Vincent Price.
SPEAKER_05Speaking of accents, my brother, who married an Australian girl, said, Australian girls are really pretty.
SPEAKER_06Until thy art and a male. Does he know Shirley? Does Shirley know he said that?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, she she can handle it. She has a good sense of humor. Yeah, it does sound like a comfort.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Yeah, I love the South African and the New Zealand accent. Well, you married one. You married a New Zealand accent. Yeah, right, mate.
SPEAKER_09My favorite New Zealand accent story is the one when she was looking for uh Chia Pets. Oh, that's the best.
SPEAKER_06Chia Chia Pia. She was looking for chair pads, but they thought she was looking for chia peds.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, can I hear some chia pets?
SPEAKER_06They sent her to the gardening. It's funny she can't say it. I can't say it.
SPEAKER_05Try it. What am I saying? Chair pads. Chair pads.
SPEAKER_06That's pretty good though. That's that was well, it the light, the accents of lightning. That was when she, you know, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_05I'm in here for 35 years, dude. I can never know. Dude. Dude.
SPEAKER_06It is weird for me to think. When I married Rachel, uh, she would have only been here like seven or eight years. That's weird.
SPEAKER_09She didn't know any better.
SPEAKER_06That's right.
SPEAKER_07All right, Frank's time for a cool, classy comment.
SPEAKER_06This is from just a girl from Texas. Such an encouragement, says the subject line. You guys are so encouraging and enjoyable. Your banter and love for the Lord are so amazing to see, and such an example. If I've talked to someone more than once, there's a high chance I've mentioned the podcast and had told them, have told them to listen. Though I also will add to them that once you get past the first 10 minutes is when it really is. I pray for y'all. There's the y'all, that God would continue his faithfulness in your ministry and that you would stay true to him.
SPEAKER_05We need to change the name of our podcast to the first 10 minutes podcast.
SPEAKER_09Oh, we gotta change it to just keep listening until easy stops talking podcast. When the item stops, you would listen.
SPEAKER_06Thank you so much. Our dear sister. What's her name? You should get it. Oh, really? That's where she left it at. Uh, but yeah, thank you. And especially, especially for your prayers for faithfulness. Uh, we can't get enough prayer for that. Great. Thank you.
Listener Mail And Espanol Ministry
SPEAKER_07All right. And the podcast shout out. Living Waters Podcast ranked number nine in Mexico.
SPEAKER_06Qué bueno. Love Mexico. Which by the way, you guys know Mexico has one of the largest populations in the world. It's a hugely populated all the time.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, um Mexico City, 20 something million.
SPEAKER_06Mexico City, especially, yeah. But this is uh especially special because our brother Luis Angeles is here from Mexico.
SPEAKER_05Why isn't he sitting in the podcast?
SPEAKER_06Hey, where is he? Oh, yeah, we're gonna have a word with him afterward. Uh Luis is such a blessing. Yeah, yeah. Um, we've I've been to Mexico. Have you been, Mark? Yes. I'm speaking at his church. Okay, that's coming out. On April 19th. Oscar, have you been out to Luis?
SPEAKER_09I've been, no, not to Mexico. I've been to uh a couple of countries.
SPEAKER_06Oh, you've been with him to other countries. Yeah, so yeah, Luis, for those of you that don't know, he heads up um the Living Waters Espanol branch of our ministry and does an amazing job. Such a diligent, hardworking, faithful brother. And he's a pastor, to boot.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, and for those who don't know, we do have an extensive ministry um in regards to Living Waters Espanol. Not only are they reaching so many different countries in the Latin American Spanish speaking world, but we also have a lot of resources for those here in the United States. There is a Living Waters Espanol uh YouTube channel, there's plenty of books and videos and tracks that have all been translated to Spanish. The reason why we're able to do that is because of our faithful ministry partners. So thank you. If you'd like to take advantage of those resources or help continue to make those resources possible, you can figure out more on LivingWaters.com.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Luis's got a very powerful beard. It looks like a front end of an 18-wheeler moving at 100 miles an hour just coming at your face.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, it's really evokes jealousy in a lot of men. I bow every time I see it. The beard, the beard of love. Yeah, so but no, Oscar, good, good, good idea to remind people about Living Waters Espanyol. Did you mention the YouTube channel? I didn't. No, you did, but you weren't listening. It's got hundreds of thousands of subs.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. So all right, free hands. And now a radically revolutionary resource. This podcast is brand new. Four question survey. Ray.
SPEAKER_05It's a four-question survey, uh, which that's a survey that has four questions. Why not five? Um four. No, four is a question. North, east, west, south. That's where it's at for everyone. Yeah, the four questions are easy. Take it away.
SPEAKER_06Whatever. They're really good. But they're really good.
SPEAKER_09They're unforgettable.
SPEAKER_06The uh the box comes with two survey pads, 50 sheets each,$100 million bill tracks,$100 million bill tracks, 100 10 commandments coins, and a thou shalt not steal pen. Did you come up with that idea, Ray, for the pen? Pride and pride and arrogance. Pride and arrogance.
SPEAKER_05It's either lied or pride.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, that's right. I'm trying to have a question. Did your parents decide to dress you as twins today? Mark Mark and Easy? They dress us this way.
Announcements And Resources
SPEAKER_01Do you like this shirt, Oscar, or is this not your style?
SPEAKER_09I think it looks good on you.
SPEAKER_01It's not your style.
SPEAKER_05They make them for me.
SPEAKER_06I wouldn't wear it, but it looks good on me.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, they make them for me.
SPEAKER_06From that sweater, it's obvious. Your grandma dressed you. She didn't. She didn't dress me. I just borrowed it from you. That's what I was gonna say.
SPEAKER_05It's a dressing gown.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. So anyway, friends, check out the four question survey. Don't forget the Living Water smug from which you can chug. And by the way, look at these nice pots of coffee and tea on the table.
SPEAKER_06I love them.
unknownWhy are you laughing, right?
SPEAKER_05That was the worst smell I've ever smelled with coffee.
SPEAKER_06Ray, that last time Oscar gave you coffee, how did you like it, right?
SPEAKER_05I didn't even drink it. The smell was just pungent.
SPEAKER_06Amen. Ray, we've never been so in one accord on something. Yeah. Coffee without creamer is gross.
SPEAKER_05I mean, take it down to the took that to the beach, the tide wouldn't come, and it was so bad.
SPEAKER_06So check it out, friends.
SPEAKER_07Living waters mug from which you could chug good coffee and tea. Don't forget to have a study Bible, the Living Waters TV, and all at LivingWaters.com.
Framing The Silent Burnout Epidemic
SPEAKER_06Ooh, contrast. And don't forget the podcast YouTube channel, tens of thousands of subscribers, you'll get to see us as well as hear us. All right, friends. Is that good? I don't know. Yet to be determined. Today we're talking about the silent epidemic of Christian burnout. Ray.
SPEAKER_05Got a question. If it's the silent epidemic of Christian burnout, how do you know about it? That's exactly it.
SPEAKER_01Don't read my notes. I didn't. You did. I didn't. You didn't show me.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Ray. How do we know about this? Oh. When it's silent. I didn't read it.
SPEAKER_06Ray, um, you're familiar with mimes, right? Your what? Mimes and yours? Tell me, tell me how mimes are heard. Are mimes heard?
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_06No, they're seen. So the epidemic is seen.
SPEAKER_01So you should be seen and not heard. Yeah, Ray. That's the little kids. Yes. Oh.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. So, oh, you guys.
SPEAKER_05The silent epidemic of mimes. Okay. I have a very remember easy?
SPEAKER_04Oh, that's the buttons, man. Remember that, Easy? The buttons.
SPEAKER_06Remember that. That's the first book you ever bought me, Ray.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's right. Well, we had a pro we had trouble trying to draw a crowd. It's a Newport Beach. And so Ray was Ray's always trying to come up with ideas to draw a crowd so they can hear the preaching of the gospel. And there are a lot of ideas out there. So then Easy does an amazing job. One day I'm at his house and I go, check this out, Ray.
SPEAKER_07And I started doing, you know, like incredible.
SPEAKER_06I was so impressed. You know, Ray, Steven. Stephen. And Ray was like, oh, Hazy, that's cry. Yeah, yeah. So he goes out, he buys me white gloves. And so we're in Huntington. Okay, Hazy. Hazy he's gonna do Megan in the box. Can you pull a piece of the book? Is it Newport? Yeah, and we had a bit of a crowd. That's right.
SPEAKER_07Hazy's gonna do man in the box.
SPEAKER_05So he gets up on the box. And he goes up, up, up, sideways, sideways, summerways, sideways, sideways, summer, up, up, up, sideways, subway, sideways, sideways, sideways.
SPEAKER_06Get him in the box, and Hazy.
SPEAKER_07Ray's like, do some. Man in a box.
SPEAKER_01He bummed me gloves and he buys me a book. I'm gonna do it. Oh man. Ray put me in a box once to do my light show in Third Street Promenade.
SPEAKER_05Oh, that's right.
SPEAKER_01Remember that was like a black box I'd do when you do the lights from the light.
SPEAKER_05Do you remember the first time we did it in a church setting? And I was supposed to get a laser pointer.
Rest, Sabbaths, And Ministry Weight
SPEAKER_01Yeah, this red laser. What did I do upstairs? Well, you had to go all over the place. People are supposed to look at the laser, and then it's supposed to go up my leg, and it's gonna go on my chest, and then I grab it. It's a little, it's called a delight if you don't end up with magic. Right. I was supposed to grab it off. So I'd grab the light off, and Ray would just keep the light on.
SPEAKER_07He's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Oh man. Yeah. So um but man, Ray, honestly, Mark, you and I have witnessed this. Oscar's starting to see more of some of this stuff, but like all the years of ideas. Spin the wheel. Spin the wheel. Yeah, I was just thinking about the wheel, the gorilla, the strait jacket, the miming.
SPEAKER_09100,000 coins in his car.
SPEAKER_06No, Oscar. Don't bring that up again. Hundred thousand. The pall bearers. Yeah, that's oh yeah. The fake fake funeral. The straight jacket.
SPEAKER_09Yeah. My favorite is the uh flying arrow. The what? The balloon arrow.
SPEAKER_05Oh yes. Yeah, that was. That wasn't a gospel.
SPEAKER_06We could have used it if it worked, but the gospel. Yeah. All right. So guys, I I'm really I'm really happy that this is something we're talking about because I I know we're joking about silent, but I think it's one that goes unseen by many. Especially for people in areas of service.
SPEAKER_05True, I haven't seen it.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I'm talking about serve. I'm talking about pastors, I'm talking about leaders, I'm talking about moms, dads, um, teachers, you know, people that are in areas where, first of all, I would say there's a there's a lot of pressure, there's a lot of dependency, there's a lot of expectations. Uh Mark, you and I have a really, really close pastor friend who just took a sabbatical, a three-month sabbatical after 30 years of ministry. Faithful serving in the ministry. Yeah. And you know, often I think when people think, oh, come on, Pastor, you just get up and preach on Sunday morning. What do you do? You know? Oh man, like we we've all been in ministry. We understand the intensity of the warfare you go through, just preparing a sermon and preaching it. One and a one-hour sermon is equivalent to eight hours of physical labor, they say. So you think of a pastor of multiple ser multiple services. Um and then the counseling and the tragedies in the church and people speaking against you. And so I was so excited that this brother was able to take this and he just got done with it, and it's like his life has changed. And his wife got away. But they had there was a plan, you know, they were gonna read certain books, they were gonna deal with certain issues and seek God on certain things. And so, but a lot of people don't get that luxury.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and even Jesus told his disciples to come aside and rest a while. And I mean, resting and sleeping and taking naps. We if somebody takes one of those, it's like we almost think like they're unspiritual. You know, but Jesus took a nap. You know, I want to follow his lead. I I I love a good nap. I hate the fact that I mean I can't sleep eight hours. I can't it, I would probably say it's been 30 plus years since I've slept eight hours straight. I I can't do it. Wow, but I will say there's the necessity to get as much rest and sleep as you possibly can to get the energy that you need to do the work that God is calling you to do. So we need to rest. Rest is a good thing. We start talking about burnout. Well, where does the burnout come from? Maybe you're not resting in the Lord and you're trying to carry the load that the Lord is meant to carry, and you get burnout because it's an ungrateful job, uh, ungrateful position. Have you ever gone to an abortion mill? Yeah, and then you try to minister there. Can you think of anything that is more ungrateful than the people ministering there? They don't want you to have abortion mill. They don't want you there. You don't want to be there. I mean, you can think of a million things you'd rather do, including a root canal.
SPEAKER_05No, no, no.
SPEAKER_06No, uh root canals are hard. Yeah, maybe a kidney stone.
SPEAKER_02Oh no, no, no.
SPEAKER_06We said that in unison confirmation.
SPEAKER_09I just realized, easy, is this your way of saying you're implementing sabbaticals for us? You're using the podcast. Every weekend.
SPEAKER_06Never. Every weekend. Yeah, that's right. Um, yeah, it's uh man, it's it's huge. And and people don't people don't see it oftentimes, you know, what's going on and what's happening.
SPEAKER_05Pastor Bruce often says, Um, people say to him, so you preach on Sunday, what do you do the rest of the week?
SPEAKER_06It's like you're off, right? Oh, yeah. People pastors get asked that.
SPEAKER_05So I did three and a half years um pastoring, um, three and a half years, the time of tribulation. Hated every minute, but it was an important grounding for when I began itinerating. Because when I would go into a local church, I would feel the pains of the local pastor. I knew what he carried. I knew what I know how hard it is to minister to the same people week after week after week. Because if you say the same joke, you've gone senile. He said that last week.
SPEAKER_06Same joke.
SPEAKER_05He's he's gone. And so um I love what John Wesley said. He said, if I preach to the same people every week, I'd grow I'd cause them to go crazy and I'd go crazy myself. And I I felt exactly the same. So it was a really good grounding to know that there's nothing as terrible in a local church as having elders that turn against the pastor, and then there's a church split, and there's all sorts of hurts, and the pastor's trying to carry the thing. So yeah, it gives us empathy for the local pastor.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, and and I think that you know, there's that struggle, and you've talked about this, Ray. I know you absolutely love this, right? I think it was Spurgeon that you learned it from, but just learning to say no. Yes. Um it's right. I said yes when learning to say no. He should have said no. No. Um but uh but learning learning to not try to take everything on.
Prayer, Abiding, And Relief
SPEAKER_05That was huge for me when I discovered that years ago, because you feel guilty saying no to someone, and yet you can do it, and people accept it. And he said, Um learn to say no, it'll be as valuable to you as learning Latin. And I thought, how often I've longed to learn Latin. But I know what he's saying. Spurton was just brilliant, and he probably wanted to learn Latin, thought it was valuable. But learning to say no is a very important part, especially for a pastor, because he's you're gonna get burnt out, someone's gonna tread on your ceiling, frighten, frightened, fall through it. But yeah, um, he's gotta learn to say no. No, no, I'm not doing that. I'm I'm spending time with my wife and my kids. Yeah, I'm having a day off, having two days off.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01You know, Vance Havner, the uh revival preacher, he said, if you don't come apart and rest a while, you will come apart. That's so good. If you don't come apart and rest a while, you will come apart. Come apart before you come apart. Are you stealing my notes? You guys are still in AI notes, is what's happening.
SPEAKER_04Did you give attribution to Vance Havner?
SPEAKER_09Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So I don't know where it came from. Vance Havner. I think he probably stole it from somewhere. This is as old as the hills. So Mark, Mark and Oscar.
SPEAKER_06Um, I I I want us to get real on this episode and because we usually don't know. No, but I I really do want us to kind of open up our own lives because people naturally get an impression from those that that minister to them, who they're blessed by, those that do podcasts or leaders or whatever, that that this just isn't something they've ever dealt with. You know, maybe you guys haven't. I mean, I don't know. Yeah. Uh I'll talk about my story and stuff. But um, yeah, you guys ever dealt with burnout?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I for sure. That that's when I made kind of that pilgrimage over to uh uh Piper's church. You know, I mean there was so much weight on top of that. Um but I think that by and large, burnout for me when it would take place or when I begin to feel that is from a lack of abiding, a lack of just sitting and resting and seeking. And uh when when that stops, you know, I feel weight and pressure upon my shoulders. Right. I mean, you you guys obviously you guys are so great here. Um, you know, easy, you're you're a great employer. Um, I don't you don't get it from Ray, I don't know where you get it, but it's so great. And and you you guys surround yourselves with people that uh you you give a lot of leewa, you don't micromanage, right?
SPEAKER_05So we told you not to say that.
SPEAKER_01What did we say about that, Mark? You know, and I think that you know, there's a saying, pray until you've prayed. Pray until there's breakthrough. Pray. If you're not sitting and praying and seeking, well, then you're gonna end up doing things in your flesh. And I think for me, prayer has become just a just a great hobby. And and it's contagious, right? I remember easy, we was it last year we went on a trip and you had uh exhorted me to make sure that I'm I'm writing down prayer requests. Right, write them down. Write down that request. And then as you you know, you go through your list every day, it's fun to maybe now you get to skip one because there's an answer to one, or there's a line through there, there's an answer to it. And I remember uh Corey Ten Boom inside of her Bible, she would have next, she would have T's and P's all throughout her Bible. And the T uh would be tried, and the P would be proven. So there would be a promise, cast all your cares on him, for he cares for you. And she put a T. All right, so when I'm in the midst of hardship and difficulty, I'm gonna trust him. And then the P would be he proved himself to be faithfulness. Now he's he's pretty he doesn't need to prove himself at all, but she just enjoyed that little um exercise. And that she when she opened up the Bible, she saw that there were just T's and P's just all over the Bible, tried and proven. Well, we can do that with God, you know, and we're not testing God, we're just like, hey, I'm gonna hold you to that. I'm gonna I'm gonna give when it when it hurts. I'm gonna trust when I wanna uh not trust, you know, I'm gonna stay focused when I want to lose my focus. So we running on empty, it becomes normal when you're not abiding in prayer with Christ. So we need to continually pray without ceasing. Remember push?
SPEAKER_05Remember that? We was in front of a church we visited. Then again, it may not have been you. Pray until something happens. Until something happens. Push.
SPEAKER_06That's what you do. Oh man, Mark, that's such a good, good reminder. Right. You know, one of my favorite things with my prayer list is when I do come to one that's been answered to transfer it to prayers answered on my list. Yeah, I have I have my list in notes and I just move it to answered, and I love it. I'll go back and review that list, and it's just joy. Like it reminds me, God answers prayer. He works, he moves, you know.
SPEAKER_05Is it a different file?
SPEAKER_06Uh which one? The answered? Yeah. No, it's in the same, it's just down below and it has big a big heading, answered prayers. And I have a long list of prayers that are answered. You know, it just it's a reminder. My God is faithful, he's able. And that, and Mark, that speaks to that. That lifts burden because it's like, oh, the God who was faithful yesterday and the day before, and the year before, and the decade before, and my whole life through, will be faithful again. May not be the prayer I'm I'm seeking to have answered in the way I want it answered, but he's faithful and he moves. We have not sometimes because we ask not. So I think sometimes God conditions things on prayer. But but then, you know, again, the confidence that we have, if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us, his will. But if it's not his will, he won't give it to us, and it's the last thing I want. That's right. But what do I experience? The relief of that burden of carrying it myself and trying to figure it out and work it out. I give it to him, I leave it at the foot of his cross, and anytime it becomes a burden again, I bring it back and lay it down again.
SPEAKER_03So beautiful.
Wounds, Resentment, And Repentance
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Oscar, burnout.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, I think there's there's been two seasons of my life where I experienced something like that. The most recent one is uh the the closing, the whatever you want to call it, of the former church that I was a part of. I've alluded to it uh on several occasions. Um you know, been part of a church plant for seven years, and uh the the pastor disqualified himself and um on his way out just all sorts of lies and false accusations. And so me and someone else tried to sort of help navigate the church. And I think the thing that caused a burnout is that you serve the Lord in that moment, you seek counsel, but all of the the thing about uh the thing that's you know, you're mentioning about like the experience with pastors is that sometimes the the pastor is seeking the Lord, seeking counsel, um, obeying God's word, and the people around them are rebelling against him. False accusation. We experience false accusations and lies. And uh, I'm actually getting a little emotional about it because Josh is here, he was a part of that uh church, and um he started attending because of me. Sorry, Josh, that Joshua, you had to go through all that stuff, man. I love you, dude, and I'm sorry that you had to be there for a long time.
SPEAKER_05Simple cameraman.
SPEAKER_09Our camera guy, yeah. Yeah, that was really hard. And I remember coming out of that, like like talking about the experience of coming out of that. What did I do? Yeah, I think the two things I did was um I the the the sins of a community reminded me of the sinless savior that I have. And the fact that like you can be betrayed, but Christ will never betray me.
SPEAKER_01Immediately did you think that? Was that your default?
SPEAKER_09No, I didn't realize I needed to apply the gospel to myself until a little bit later. That's what I think that's what burnout is. It's a lack of application of the gospel. You you begin to lack applying it to a certain area of your life. Um, and then the second thing is so one, the the reapplication of the gospel, I needed it, but also repentance. Like you guys experienced, I think that season of life. Like I was unbeknownst to me, growing resentful, bitter, frustrated. And I probably took that out on you guys here, you know. And so I had to sit down with some of you and apologize, just recognizing that um that the the devil just loves when you are sinned against, the devil will use that to shape your sin. And and so I think coming out of burnout is diving deep into the goodness of God and searching your own heart of areas for repentance that you need.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. And the local church is just floods with demonic forces if the contention begins within the church. And I was thinking of Tale of Three Kings. I think it is Absalom. Absalom goes to the main gates and he doesn't speak against the king. He just says, If I were king, I would do it this way. And that's how to split a church. You don't talk against the pastor, you say, if I was a pastor, I'd do this. And it just sows discord among the brethren, and that's when you realize how demonic everything is. When the fire begins, you just can't put it out.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, when when yeah, like the word says, you know, when wherever there's self-seeking, yeah, where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. Man, that's so that's so divinely insightful. Yeah. Again, these are the glimmers in the word that I don't need these things to affirm that it's God's word, but it's that bearing with my heart, like this is this is so right and and so divinely inspired, you know. But but there is, there's confusion in every evil thing. Um it's because it's earthly and it's demonic, it says, you know, that kind of yeah, and so so it's important to remember that. Mark, I want to share this quote by uh A. W. Tozar. He said, the neglected heart will soon be a heart overrun with worldly thoughts, the neglected life will soon become a moral chaos. How much does sin in a person's life play into burnout as well?
SPEAKER_01You know, when we start talking about uh sin, uh you know, I I I don't think we overemphasize it enough, right? Because a wandering thought in an unsafe place is an evil thing. It is a dangerous thing, right? We we need to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. This is why I have that routine of when I get in my car, I look back on what just took place from the grocery store, from that restaurant, that fast food place, which used to be Winter Schnitzel. I I used to just and I just sit inside the car and I just kind of take in what went right, what went wrong. Did I hand out the track? Did I hand it out another track? You know, how come I how come I don't have any tracks on me? You know, just kind of going through that. And there's like a restlessness attached to this. And I love, I love that Jesus is referred to as as a shepherd, right? And you think of sheep, right? Sheep are such a how many sheep are in New Zealand, right?
SPEAKER_05It's somewhere like 40 million people, maybe 50, 35, but they're not sure the right amount. The correct amount because the guy that keeps counting them keeps falling to sleep.
SPEAKER_06So stupid, isn't it? I've heard it so many times. Yeah, I've heard it so many times.
SPEAKER_01Still makes me smile, too. It's so good. All right, so listen to this. Uh in Psalm 23, he makes me to lie down in green pastures, he leads me beside the still waters. And I was looking at that word makes, right? Is it a forceful word? Is he making me to lay down? No, it that there's there's a leading, there's a cause because my heart is at rest. Right? I saw that a sheep will only lie down when it feels safe, when it's well fed, when it's free from fear, and it's protected from pests and friction. There is in the midst of our chaotic world the ability to find rest. Why? Because we're safe. The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear himself and sings songs of deliverance. We're well fed, right? No good thing will we withhold from those who walk uprightly. You do not need to worry about what you're gonna wear or what you're going to eat. You're free from fear. God has not given us a spirit of fear, right? And then it's protected from pests and friction. What can the enemy do to me? Greater is he that is in me than he that is inside the world. If we had knowledge of these promises and we applied these promises, what is God going to do with that? I mean, you're you're gonna be at rest in the midst of a Titanic encounter, whatever that is inside your life. When those icebergs hit, you don't need to be in control because God is. Things are not falling apart, they're falling into place, right? I remember Ray and I, we were at a uh CBA several years ago, probably 20, 25 years ago. Christian Bookseller Association of America. And I just finished teaching on Psalm 23 at my church, and there I was, I saw the author from the book, as shepherd looks at Psalm 23. Whoa. And so I went up to him, Philip Keller. But I went up to him, and it wasn't Philip Keller. It was Helen Keller's husband. It was Philip Yancey. That's what I went up to. But Philip Keller is the author of the book. So you messed up. So I messed up. So I went up to Philip Yancey and I said, I just want to say that I loved your book, as Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23. I used it in prepping for my message, Shepherd look on uh Psalm 23. And I was just going on and on and on, and he was so gracious, he never said anything. He was kind of nodding and kind of smiling. No, he was the to me idiot. Philip Keller had long since been dead. Philip Yancey is a world-renowned author who has written tremendous books, and I've benefited from them tremendously.
SPEAKER_05But he was anything to him about his book.
SPEAKER_01That was it. And he was so gracious and kind to me. And why I brought that up, I have no idea. But I enjoyed that book. Uh Shepard Looks at Psalm 23. And I enjoyed my interaction with uh Philip Yancey, and he didn't make me like a fool. No, he didn't. He he was just gracious and kind with me. Wow. And I went my way.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, it didn't go so well with me when I mistook someone.
SPEAKER_01He took the credit for writing it.
Discipline To Delight And Motivation
SPEAKER_09There is a famous story of a pastor who was also experiencing burnout. And uh this man was known for pursuing God with his entire mind, heart, soul, body. He would torture himself in any area of his life that he found sin in over and over and over again. Um, and one day he's sitting in his office and he's reading through Romans and he gets to Romans 117 and he reads, for for in the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, just as it is as it is written, the righteous will live by faith. And that man's name with Martin Luther. And that moment began the reformation. So I guess the point that I'm making here is that so many of us who experience burnout, is it possible is that that we've been trying to earn our own righteousness? That we are acting like Luther pre-salvation, in which we have just not come to understand the grace of God and all of our disciplines, all of our godly disciplines are trying, we're using them to get us to earn some form of salvation, some sort of debt with God that we can cash in on later. When, and I love the way C.S. Lewis points it. He points out that at some point in the Christian walk, discipline must turn to delight. And he points out, like you think about the the young boy who's learning uh English for the first time, he hates learning English. You you think about the the young person who's like learning scales on the piano, they hate it's so boring to spend hours playing scales. Trust me, I know I can only play scales, it's boring. But at one point, learning English leads to delighting in poetry. And learning scales leads to the freedom of expressing yourself on a piano. And so your discipline should lead to delight when your discipline is focused on the grace of God.
SPEAKER_05Boy, you mentioning the word delight. I want to turn delight on about that particular thing. Um, there's an old saying, don't put the cart before the horse. Heard of that, Oscar? Yeah. Yeah. And it really means if you put the cart in front of the horse, it's not going to go anywhere, because the horse is supposed to pull the cart. And you talked about delight. The Christian should say, I delight to do your will, oh my God. The Bible says, serve the Lord with gladness. And if you lose that delight and gladness, then doing God's will will be a burden. That's what produces burnout. In the same way you have to work at a marriage, but if I lose delight in my wife, I won't. It's probably because I'm not living to do her will. And so love is what love is what should pull that cart. Love should be the horse, and that'll cause you to delight in doing God's will, and that'll stop the burnout.
SPEAKER_06That's great. I love that, Ray. I I'm always watching your life and you don't know it. Um, yes, I do.
SPEAKER_05I have seen you at the window of that house. You smell differently when you're sleeping. It's because my mouth's open.
SPEAKER_06I was uh Mum, who is your wife, which I call affectionately Mum. Uh, you you called her the other day and she put you on speaker, and I don't even know if she knew I was out there, but I was outside of her office and you said, I made you a lovely dinner tonight. And I thought, how could you yell at her? Yeah, he he was really angry. She started crying and then from the counselors. But it was a burnout. It's just but that's what you're you do live it, Ray. And love, love is such a tonic, you guys. Like, I had this thought the other day. I was thinking, like, let's say everything fell apart, right? Like, I don't know, whatever. Um, I just my my throat gets destroyed. I can't preach anymore, I can't do the podcast. Uh, I lose my mind, I can't even leave the ministry, which has happened already, basically. But I'm just thinking, I have no ministry, I have nothing to do. Um, we lose our finances, we have to sell our house. Rachel and I are living in a small apartment. I got I got so excited by this thought of making my life mission to be the greatest, to express the greatest love toward everybody, to make it my mission, to make it my business to love until I'm just spent. And it excited me. There was something about that that thrilled my soul. Like to be a person, no matter what you take from me, you can't take from no matter what you take from me.
SPEAKER_07Oh man, Whitney Houston, get out of my head.
SPEAKER_06That that no mat no matter what, I am free to love. Yeah, and nothing is more thrilling than that. I'm free to love God with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength. I'm free to love my neighbor as myself.
SPEAKER_05What a great book. Yeah. And uh you could write a book easy. I seriously. Because you're gonna be tested all over the place by everybody including me.
SPEAKER_06But I'm just saying, like, yeah, you know, before I got saved, I used to think to myself, if I, you know, if I end up even homeless, I have my talent. You know, I think I've shared it before. And I was like, that was my like lifeline.
SPEAKER_05Have you read that?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, you know what? If I was lost, it would be a really great cost, but it really wouldn't matter. Don't need to flatter. Everything may just fall apart and splatter, but you know what? I have my talent I do, and I'll have it for the rest of my life. It's true. I don't know. Sorry, what talent you turn? But um how stupid that I just did that. Welcome to welcome to our life. Welcome to our life.
SPEAKER_05But uh noticed that love that you're talking about. It's it's incredible. You're always showing love and kindness and grace, and uh it's really appreciated.
Identity In Christ Over Performance
SPEAKER_06Yeah, thank you so much. But I'll tell you, it's just kidding. It's it's not even close to what I yearn, yet what I yearn to do. And I shouldn't say, oh, and if this happens, then I will, but like that should be the heartbeat of our lives. But I say all that to say, like, Ray, you're right. It's love does something to us, it revives us and rejuvenates us, you know. And what you're talking about, Oscar, as well, like and Mark too, the two things I think that can lead to burnout as well in our lives as believers is first that element of trying to pursue perfection or trying to establish our own righteousness. But then there's also that element of living in rebellious sin against the Lord. It's that's a weight where you know, like you know you're saved by grace, you know you're not trying to earn your salvation. It's not an issue of condemnation, it's an issue of just making, giving opportunity for the flesh.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, we we quote the scripture that there's no peace for the wicked, but there is no peace for the righteous who do wicked things. I mean, why would there be? Yeah, you you don't want to be at peace with your sin. And who was it that said if uh if you're at peace with your sin, you'll never be at peace with God? Right? So we we we need to be careful with that. We need to be haunted uh by your sin, but we need to be driven to that bloodstained cross and recognize that it's about Christ and not us.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Um I was gonna say real quick, Ray, I mean, you're always hitting on Psalm 51 with King with King David, and as he was living in that rebellion and sin, he talked about his bones and his melting like wax and you know the heavy hand of God on him. Like that that is burden that keeps us, right, from from that freedom.
SPEAKER_05Absolutely. And I was just interested in what Oscar was going to say. Oh, yeah, Oscar.
SPEAKER_09Well, you know, I was just gonna um add to what you just said, Easy, which is that uh I love that the way Sinclair Ferguson puts it is that the legalist and the antinomian, that is like the person who does his own thing versus the person who stays at church and is a morally upright person, he points out that that um both of those can be equally lost. That uh they are two antinomianism and legalism are twins from the same womb.
SPEAKER_05You probably need to define antinomianism for those.
SPEAKER_09Good point. So anti without gnome, little gnomes. That's what that was going.
SPEAKER_05As a slap on the face, Doctor. Anism.
SPEAKER_09Antinomianism is the the belief that while you are saved by grace, that frees you to live in a sort of uh sinful freedom and that you pursue no righteousness. Lawlessness. Lawlessness, that's right. You are you are now free without condemnation to live as you will.
SPEAKER_06Agnostic, like the body doesn't matter and this world doesn't matter, and you can do what you want. Certainly.
SPEAKER_09Um legalism is the belief that you are earning your salvation, that somehow you must keep your own salvation, and or that the righteousness that you do is building some sort of debt between you and God, in which He will cash in and pay off later on. So legalism, antinomianism. Ferguson says they're twins from the same womb. I've actually, when I first learned about it, I was taught that they're two opposites. He says they're twins from the same womb. And he points out, um, and him and him and Keller do a great work on this. Uh, he they both of them point out that the the story of the prodigal sons, in that the younger brother is the antinomian. His belief is that I'm gonna save myself from leaving the father, take my inheritance and running. And you might think that story is primarily about the younger brother. But actually, if you read it in context, the older brother is actually the prodigal son that Jesus wanted us to focus on. We know that because he is being ridiculed by Pharisees at the beginning of his him launching into these three parables, and then at the end of these three parables, he once again addresses the Pharisees. So he starts with the younger brother, and you might think the Pharisees are listening, going, Yeah, yeah, that's the Samaritans that are listening to this. But then he shifts to the older brother. The younger brother is invited home, he's lavished with gifts, he's invited into sonship with the father, and then the older brother is outside where the younger brother was. And the father goes outside to meet the older brother on the road in the same way that he went outside to meet the younger brother on the road. And the father pleads with the older brother to come home. And the point here is this the older brother, he was home the whole time. He obeyed the father. He never sinned against the father. He's the kid that grew up homeschooled, that went to seminary, that volunteers at church, is an elder at the church. But the whole time that older brother was trying to earn his salvation, he even says, if you notice in the scripture, when the younger brother comes home and receives a new inheritance, the older brother's complaint, he says to the father, I have slaved for you. See, the point is the older brother never saw himself as a son, he only ever saw himself as a slave. And so many people in the pews see themselves primarily as slaves, rather as sons and daughters, adopted. As J.I. Packer says, adoption is the greatest ideal of the gospel. Adopted to be sons and daughters of God. And so much of our burnout, we think I'm tired of being a Christian. No, you've never been a Christian. You've been a slave to your own self-righteousness. Now it's time to be a son and daughter of a God who has forgiven you.
Practical Loads, Limits, And Help
SPEAKER_05I really enjoyed that because you can often read Luke 15, um the whole story, and see the elder son as an appendix.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, good point.
SPEAKER_05But it's not.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, man, Oscar. We look as a ministry, we we caution people on beginning with the message of the love of God before confronting them with their sin. And we've seen that. I mean, there was a video recently, I think we talked about it where someone was out there, Jesus loves you, you know, and that these girls who really appear like they're going out to party and were up to no, they're like, Yeah, he does, you know, and it's just no, no, people need to be confronted with their sin. But of course, then we bring in the love of God. But it's but for the believer especially, we cannot hear the love of God enough. I mean, think of what Paul said, that you may know what is a width and length and depth and height, to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. Like, we've got to know the love of God. I mean, there was a a dear friend of mine who for years struggled with the love of God. He grew up in an abusive home and rejected by his his father, and just it was terrible. And I would always tell him, Hey, you do you believe that God loves you? That he loves you. Again, I'm talking about a believer. We need to be unrestrained with reminding believers of the love of God. And he just would, he's I believe God loves other people. Wow, I believe God loves you, and I just can't, I can't. And I'll never forget the day. It was during worship at our church, it was after the service, and we there was uh, you know, additional worship going on. And he came up to me and he tapped me on the shoulder and he said, Man, I believe that that the Lord loves me. And it was like, it was like such a paradigm shift moment for him, you know. And he he had that burnout because he couldn't receive the love of God, you know, and so that's that's huge.
SPEAKER_05I I think it's a a huge revelation to realize that the love of God isn't drawn out by our loveliness. God doesn't look as though I love him because he's such a good-looking, talented guy. God loves us despite our wicked heart. And that means none of us deserve the love of God. God loves because he is the reservoir of love.
SPEAKER_06And that's why we can claim it at all times. Yeah, it's unconditional. You know, and he's already demonstrated it when when we while we were yet sinners, Christ died. If he if he died for us at the zenith, the pinnacle, the height of our rebellion, would he love us any less now as his children, even though we're struggling or battling or whatever, you know?
SPEAKER_09I just finished like a week ago this book by Sinclair Ferguson. I had never heard it before, but I was reading another book that referenced it. It's called Children of the Living God. It was like, it's from the 80s, so it's ancient. Uh Children of the Living God. It's hard to find, but man, if you can get your hands on a copy of this book, it's super, I think it's like 150 pages. Uh, it is so worth it. And he captures the heart of God so beautifully with great doctrine, but it's very clear that it's with great devotion as well. Highly recommend it.
SPEAKER_05Oscar, I don't know if you realize how blessed you are in having such an insatiable appetite for reading and the ability to hold on to it. I've never been able to read. I can read a whole page and get to the bottom and say, that was fast. I haven't got a clue.
SPEAKER_06I haven't got a clue what I read. It says the man who's written about 120 pages or something. 20 books.
SPEAKER_09What that'd be a lesson if you can't read right.
SPEAKER_06Right is living proof. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Well, it is such a blessing. You can gain knowledge like that. So wonderful.
SPEAKER_06Oh man, it's beautiful. Uh, Mark, I'd love you to speak to this. This is kind of a paraphrase from um Paul Tripp's book, Dangerous Calling, which you and I have read. Uh and basically he said, Many in ministry burn out because they seek in ministry what they have already been given in Christ. Wow. Identity, security, and purpose.
SPEAKER_01Selah, right? I mean, wow, that's so good. Just when I want to take that in. You know, we we seeking after what we've already been given in Christ. Right? I mean, it's like the guy who goes inside of a uh before a judge and he's guilty of a crime and somebody pays the fine, and he still wants to go into the prison. He's still trying to go inside the prison because he doesn't have any money of his own to pay for the crime in which he's committed. You you've already been set free, right? I mean, it it's so beautiful that Christ has set us free. Yeah, in Revelation 2, 4, you know, that we've you've left your first love. It's like you're you're busy about you're doing all these great things, but what are you doing? You know, you what why are you doing what you're doing? Why are you seeking for life amongst that which doesn't give life? Why are you worshiping that which cannot hear you, though it has eyes it can't see and ears it can't hear?
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01Why are you why do you go to broken cisterns that can't hold any water? Why, why, why, why are you doing this? You think about what we've been given, guys, right? I mean, we we have been set free. And I don't think it sets in. I don't think it settles in. I don't think that we we settle for the fleeing pleasures and the mirages and the fireworks of this world, and we're so easily entertained. And I think that it would do well to just kind of pause and call a timeout, call a sela, and just take it in that we've been blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies, that uh Christ is with us, and uh we we don't need to worry no more, you know, we don't need to fret anymore, we don't need to freak out anymore. You know, we've read the final chapter. My wife freaks out, she hates it because I can't watch a movie without going online and seeing how it ends. That's crazy, man. Right? I I I I love it. I love I want to know what's happening.
SPEAKER_05You do this. I drive Sue crazy every night. We watch these old black and white movies, and I'm not exaggerating. I stopped the movie at least 20 times. Every movie, go back and say, You see that? See how fast you drew that gun. He circles a gun around his finger. Let's watch it again.
SPEAKER_06Going back is nice, right? It's nice to go back. The problem is, and what you guys do borders on disgusting. Go ahead to see the end. Well, God did it. You do it with movies, he does it with sports in the Bible. I don't know you guys, but don't you read the book of Revelation?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, just get up on Revelation.
SPEAKER_09Revelation. I preach in Revelation Sunday, and I've come up with a new terminology, make revelation great again.
SPEAKER_01You should have a little red hat.
Gentle And Lowly: Receiving Mercy
SPEAKER_06I don't know about that. Oh, that's good. Um, yeah, and and you know, like like Tripp's saying, like we already have it and we have him. Yeah, and let's remember Matthew 11, 28 to 30. Come to me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, learn from me, for I'm gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light. And this is, you know, this would touch obviously on the spiritual repentance, salvation, but also all that we need in Christ. Right.
SPEAKER_05You shall find rest to your souls. We can tend to go over that, but Jesus is talking about a rest of the soul. We don't think about resting the soul. Yeah, we talk about resting the body because the body's tired.
SPEAKER_01It was like our pastor, I think our pastor said on Sunday that if you always preach on hope, you'll always have an audience.
SPEAKER_06Poor John back there behind the camera. This guy's got to sit through all this. We won't look into it. That's how he's showing up. Um but but uh I do want to say uh my burnout story, right? Because and and I think this this is related. It's a couple hours. Buckle up, boys. Um I uh when we when we when I first came on here with Living Waters, I was kind of helping to kind of rebirth the ministry in a sense in that we were under the nonprofit uh status, the 501c3 status of a church that Ray here from New Zealand. And so I came on and you know, Ray's gift is not administration.
SPEAKER_09This is Easy's nice way of saying I was trying to prevent Easy Ray from going to prison. That's true. For sure.
SPEAKER_06I had no idea what this is not administration. That's a confession you'll readily make. But you know, I came on and I just saw different things that needed to be taken care of. Like, you know, the the ministry's finances were exceeded the church's finances now, and yet we didn't have control over the things we did. And so I said, Ray, we really need to kind of separate. We need to spin off and have our own 501c3 nonprofit organization. So that took incorporating us, that took then taking us through the 501c3 nonprofit status uh procedure with the IRS, which almost killed me because like the the agent would send me the craziest questions, and I was writing like a book's worth of answers, you know. I had to establish the way the master call center, I had to deal with our finances. I was the acting CFO at the time, chief financial officer. I just remember I almost had a nervous breakdown, especially when I was dealing with the finances. So we, you know, we had an outside accounting firm that was working with us, but I was functioning as a CFO and trying to jug all this.
SPEAKER_05But that shows what an your character because I didn't I didn't have a clue what was going on. I was going out witnessing and come back into this, and you're you're carrying all this load.
SPEAKER_06I remember being in my office and like literally feeling like I was going to die. I mean, I I would it was so intense.
SPEAKER_05I remember that day.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. And um, and I just said, We need, I need to, I need to get a real CFO. We need to like hire, we need a Chief Financial Officer. Yeah, chief financial officer. And so anyway, I just remember that was so intense. I love the Lord, I'm seeking the Lord, I'm going after the Lord, but but there was a lot of pressure, you know, and God by his grace obviously brought me through that. I mean, this was 20 years, 22 years ago, 21, 22, something like that years ago. But but I think there is also those who are seeking the Lord, who love the Lord, who are walking with the Lord, who are ha they have their prayer life, they're in the word, but sometimes the practical load is just too heavy. And they're not taking breaks. They're they're not they're not getting refreshed, they're not getting help. And so they're getting burned out. I'm talking about moms and dads and and again, people in ministry and and those that serve and those even that have jobs where it's so demanding, but they're not taking breaks.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's okay to be honest that you're weak. You know, there's a great quote by uh Dane Ortland in his book, Gentle and Lonely, where he said, he is more drawn to your weakness than drawn to your strength. Wow. He's more drawn to your weakness than to your strength. We think we have something to offer, but in reality, you have nothing to offer. He sees you in that muck, in the mire, and that pit in which you sit. He sees that, and he's more drawn to that than the person who seems like he's got it all together.
SPEAKER_05I didn't think we realized how complex we are as human beings. I remember when I had my operation years ago, I was in this waiting room and I saw an elderly guy who uh was in a lot of pain. And I just had my um blood pressure taken, and for some reason they wanted to take in again, and it went through the roof after me seeing that guy in pain. And I thought I didn't feel any different, but my blood pressure showed that I did, and so we don't realize that we are beings that are complex and we need to rest our bodies. Yeah, it's the same with even drinking. I didn't realize a lot of old people, elderly people die because they don't drink enough water in hot weather. Yeah, they just die, and that's because they're not they don't feel they feel don't feel like a drink. And now I I discipline myself to drink because I realize that my body needs that, and our body needs rest.
Hope, Suicide Warning, And Closing
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah, and and look, you know, Mark highlighted it before. I mean, Jesus said to the disciples, come away by yourselves and rest a while. God showed us that the Sabbath principle of rest. God rested in whatever way we can understand that, you know. And and so we have to recognize that that we need to do that. So I would say to those listening who are in that place, humble yourself and open up. Speak and speak to those that know you best and just say, I need help. If it's your boss, if it's your husband, if it's your wife, uh, kids, if it's if it's your parents, you, if it's your kids and and their things that they're demanding of you. You've got to speak up. But let me, in closing, speak to those who can be of service to those who may never speak up. So, husband, lift the load off your wife. Figure out ways you can bless her, serve her, give her a break. Honey, I'm taking the kids today or this weekend. Go with your friends, go to a spa, go get refreshed. Wives, understand that you're the greatest voice of relief in your husband's life. So he comes home. I know you may be tempted to share with him everything that happened that day. And there's a space for that, of course. But you got to think, is he burdened? Has he been talking about how hard work is? Do you see him working later than normal and kind of down a bit? Speak life into him, encourage him, ask him what you can do to help him. Take care of those things that maybe he's got on his plate that you can practically take care of to help him. You know, um, congregants, encourage your pastor. Instead of just bringing burdens to him, bring encouragement to him. Tell him what a blessing he's been. Get a gift card for him and his wife to go out and enjoy an evening out, you know. Um, and on and on. I mean, the list can go on, you know, of ways that we can be an encouragement and help lift the load of others who feel burned out. You're you're at work in ministry, you see other people, you know, striving. Like today, we were dealing with something, and and Oscar sent a text and he said, What can I do to help? Let me know. And that blessed me. You know, it's it just the knowledge that others are willing to pull away. Mark does that with me often. Ray, you know, what can I do? We can do that for each other, and it can make a massive difference.
SPEAKER_09And God does that for us. It's funny you mentioned that Bible verse, and you mentioned the book Gentle and Lily, which I was trying to pull up on my Kindle app because I have this quote. And I'm sorry, I'd love to share it. Um, this is based on the Bible verse that you just read. He says, You don't need to unburden or collect yourself and then come to Jesus. Your very burden is what qualifies you to come. No payment is required. He says, I will give you rest. His rest is a gift, not a transaction. Whether you are actively working hard or crowbar your life into smoothness, or passively finding yourself weighed down by something outside your control, Jesus Christ's desire that you find rest, that you come in out of the storm outstrips even your own. Then he says, That God is rich and mercy means that your regions of deepest shame and regret are not hotels which divine mercy passes, but home in which divine mercy abides. It means the things about you that make you cringe most make him hug. It means his mercy is not calculating and cautious like ours. It is unrestrained, flood-like, sweeping, magnanimous. It means our haunting shame is not a problem for him, but the very thing he loves most to work with. It means our sins do not cause his love to take a hit. Our sins cause his love to surge forward all the more. It means on that day when we stand before him quietly, unhurried, we will weep with relief, shocked at how impoverished a view of his mercy-rich heart we had.
SPEAKER_06That's really good, man. Wow. Praise God. Well, friends, we hope you've been encouraged. And um, and and I know, listen, I know that there are some of you out there listening right now who, because of burnout, have been on the brink of suicide. And I want to urge you, urge you, maybe maybe even today you were suicidal. I want to plead with you. First of all, don't do it. And second of all, open up. You have to open up your life to others no matter what. And uh, there is hope and there is rescue, and there is mercy, and there is grace, and there is love, and there is refreshment in the Lord for you. Thank you for joining us, friends. We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast.
