The Living Waters Podcast
Enjoy the ride with this hilarious new Podcast as hosts (Ray Comfort, Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne, Mark Spence, and Oscar Navarro) and special guests explore the pressing questions of our day with sound theology and apologetics! We would love to hear from you. How has the podcast encouraged you? Are there any subjects you’d like the guys to cover or questions you’d like them to answer? Email us at Podcast@LivingWaters.com and you may hear your feedback and questions quoted on the next episode!
The Living Waters Podcast
Ep. 382 - Escaping the Algorithm: How the Internet Is Shaping Your Soul
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Algorithms are quietly shaping desires, habits, and spiritual priorities in ways most people rarely stop to question. Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar examine how algorithms function as invisible disciplers, learning behavior patterns, and feeding content designed to capture attention and influence decisions. The guys explain that every swipe, pause, and click trains the system to deliver material that amplifies dissatisfaction. What appears to be harmless entertainment often becomes a steady process of formation that reshapes values and expectations. Algorithms frequently appeal to sinful tendencies by encouraging consumerism, envy, and jealousy.
The guys explore how algorithms increasingly replace real community with curated digital experiences. Online dating, influencer parenting culture, and social comparison loops can push people to evaluate life through aesthetics rather than substance. Many young adults and families unknowingly trade wisdom rooted in relationships for advice driven by engagement metrics. This shift can create anxiety, guilt, and unrealistic standards because algorithms reward emotional reaction rather than truth. When community is replaced by content, discernment weakens, and identity becomes tied to digital approval rather than spiritual growth.
The conversation turns toward the deeper spiritual implications of digital formation. The guys emphasize that believers are not merely consuming media but being shaped by it, making intentional renewal of the mind essential. Algorithms themselves are not inherently evil, yet their influence becomes dangerous when self-control disappears. Modern platforms are engineered to mimic dopamine reward cycles, making endless scrolling feel productive while quietly draining time and focus. The guys encourage listeners to prioritize Scripture, prayer, and spiritual discipline before engaging with digital content so that technology serves faith rather than reshaping it.
Finally, the guys offer practical direction for resisting passive digital discipleship. Time management, intentional habits, and occasional breaks from social media help retrain both attention and desire. Real wisdom grows through embodied relationships, where conversations sharpen understanding beyond surface-level agreement. Echo chambers fueled by algorithms can isolate people inside their own assumptions, weakening compassion and gospel outreach. By pursuing Christ-centered priorities and practicing disciplined engagement with technology, believers can ensure that their habits reflect devotion to God rather than conformity to digital influence.
Thanks for listening! If you’ve been helped by this podcast, we’d be grateful if you’d consider subscribing, sharing, and leaving us a comment and 5-star rating!
Visit the Living Waters website to learn more and to access helpful resources!
You can find helpful counseling resources at biblicalcounseling.com.
Check out The Evidence Study Bible and the Basic Training Course.
You can connect with us at podcast@livingwaters.com. We're thankful for your input!
Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro
Habits That Shape Thinking
SPEAKER_00We don't just think our way into wrong living. We live our way into wrong thinking. We live our way into wrong thing. In other words, we we structure our lives in such a way and surround ourselves with voices that lead us to that wrong thinking. I mean it begins with the actions we take, the places we put ourselves, the time we spend, what we interface with. That then begins to affect and impact our thinking. And here's my biggest fear of all it's desensitization to what's happened to us. Like we don't realize it. We don't even know that it's happening. And so we we we are less prone to break out of the cycle. It took me fifty years to realize I've always had a favorite fruit, but never knew what it was. Plums. I'm about to reveal it, gentlemen. Peaches. I love plums. And let's see. Yeah, I had to sing it. Let's see if you guys can figure out strawberries. Banana. Tomatoes?
SPEAKER_03Nah.
SPEAKER_00Guavas? Nah. I knew you guys wouldn't know. I knew you guys wouldn't know. And you know what I realized? I've been eating it like especially.
SPEAKER_04Could you bring us each one?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Especially at hotels. Um like you know, buffets and so fruit buffets. But I I never I I just it clicked finally. I finally realized this is my favorite fruit. Can you say what it is? Well smells. Well, see if you can uh smell it. Uh exactly. Explore it. Can you tell? Smell it, Mark. Oh, the smell test. See, I'm telling you, it's one of those that you just don't guess, right? It's called how to get viruses from the plastic. My wife would be good.
SPEAKER_01Just put his face in there. Yeah, and he licked his. You want whatever they've got. Okay, huh? Per cinnamon. Those two can't hear it.
SPEAKER_03Easy. Explain the look of it. Easy.
SPEAKER_01I gotta say something here. I would have got it if I'd sniffed it. Because we had a persinamin tree just over the back of us, and every year, a whole stack of crows, I mean like hundreds of them, would come and sit in the tree and eat them. If they're not, they may have let's go. What's the crows? That's cat cinnamon?
SPEAKER_00Cat cinnamon. Do you guys like persimmons?
SPEAKER_04I've never tried it.
SPEAKER_00Oscar. You must love persinimens. I do like persinnamins, yes.
SPEAKER_04I like persinnamins to a minimum. I like cinnamon.
SPEAKER_00I like cinnamon over persinim. You've never tried them? I like cinnamon. Okay, you gotta try it now for the first time.
SPEAKER_03There's nothing like cinnamon. You're gonna have marked on your lid. Where did you pull the paper towel from? Pre-recorded television?
SPEAKER_04Put it on this. Put it on his uh lid. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, where did the paper tell us?
SPEAKER_04Touch it with his finger a little bit. Oscar, you've never tried it? No, I have, yeah. I have a percentage. I'm excited to try it. Mark, no!
SPEAKER_01You just wasted a persimmon piece. For those who aren't listening who listen to this podcast, Mark with his left hand threw it over his shoulder and his right hand faked, putting it in his mouth. What do you think, Mark?
SPEAKER_03There's persimmon all over the wall now.
SPEAKER_00Mark, please try one, dude. It's cinnamony, don't you think? No, it's not.
SPEAKER_01Sue and I did try one and it left a sort of weird taste. Please try it. I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna try this one. Okay, wait, get that.
SPEAKER_00You want a nap? No.
SPEAKER_04Why would I want that?
SPEAKER_00Eat the fruit inside, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04What else is there? What the peel?
SPEAKER_00Come on. Come on, man. Is it ripe? Yeah. Speaking of percentages. How do you know? We got it in a gift basket yesterday. From the ministry? So good. No, some friends. Yeah, not bad. Good, huh? Yeah. Because here's the thing: apples are good, plums are good, but some of them make your stomach feel weird. I can eat as much of this as I ever want. And it's delicious.
SPEAKER_01Famous last words. Thank you. What about apricots? Ripe apricots are really nice.
SPEAKER_00No, but the thing about persimmons, Ray, is that they don't mess your mouth up, they don't mess your stomach up. Well, unless you're allergic to them. How are you feeling, Mark? So good. Mark's hallucinating. It's gotta be with the Lord.
SPEAKER_04The end of Mark Spence. You know what would be better than that? What are you doing with my persimmons, Oscar? None of them. A donut. No. Yes, like a sidecar huckleberry.
SPEAKER_00When I'm on a diet, Oscar brings in sidecar donuts. Where'd you go? Do you sound my persimmon? No. It's a little warm here, sorry.
SPEAKER_01It is, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Ah. You guys have favorite fruits that you that you really, really enjoy? I like a banana. Who is it that hates um banana man? Who is it that that hates uh cantaloupe? Is it one of you in here? I like cantaloupe. I like cantaloupe.
SPEAKER_03I uh I'm a I'm a big stone fruit guy. So peaches, plums, all that. Anything if stone fruit is anything with the seed in the middle. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Does anyone else feel studio? Was it just her? Sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh. Guys, we gotta find that box. Yeah, the box. That was here. Ray? Yeah. Someone sent some stuff, and whoever you are will never know because someone took the box. So that voice, Tony, that you're always talking to, you can hear him in this ring. Is that right?
SPEAKER_01Have you told your therapist about this box then?
SPEAKER_00I need to. No one else knew about the box.
SPEAKER_04What was in the box, Easy? What was there?
SPEAKER_00I just took I know it was a box of stuff and it had a letter, and I was gonna share it all the other day. I thought, no, let me look through it carefully, and then I come and it's gone. I think Eddie took it. Look, if it was breadsticks and a book that was read or something, I saw Eddie. I looked on the book.
SPEAKER_03Why are you always accusing the Hispanics?
SPEAKER_01You don't say por qué. So did you find any box in your office? I don't have any boxes. Because I told Eddie put some boxes in your office that came to the studio. I think those prior to that we've unlocked those.
Listener Letter And Study Bibles
SPEAKER_00We'll find the culprit. All right, it's time for a cool classy comment. This is from Andrew Darby. Hi Ray, Mark, Easy, and Oscar. Thank you so much for the encouragement on the podcast. It's really inspired me and my brother, 24 and 21, from Wales, UK, to be more proactive and evangelizing. And we've had some really good conversations with people recently as we try to give out tracks everywhere we go in our day-to-day lives. I feel like I've grown in knowledge and faith since I started listening to the podcast. Thanks, Ray, for sharing about your struggle with anxiety because it's affect it affects me badly sometimes, and it's encouraging to hear that anyone can overcome and endure it through Jesus' power. Easy, I love your poetry, and I can relate to you as I write and release songs. It started out as an idol for me and sole purpose for my life when I was at my lowest point. But when Jesus saved me, he slowly brought me to realize that he is the only one who deserves a glory. So now I write songs about my testimony and pray God will reach people through it. Keep up the amazing work, and I look forward to meeting you all one day in this life or in glory. Thanks again and God bless. Andrew from the UK. Thank you, Andrew Darby. Thanks, Andrew. Appreciate you. Darby's Plymouth. Ooh, Darby. Yeah. What a piece related. Can you imagine? Darby Bible.
SPEAKER_01Have you read the Darby Bible? Yes, I have in the past.
SPEAKER_00Did you right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I have.
SPEAKER_00That was probably one of the biggest study Bibles, right, Mark? When did you say?
SPEAKER_041800. He was born in, I think, the year 1800.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Derby. I've told you guys I witnessed to George Whitfield in England before he got saved, right? Speaking of that, um, Thomas and Chain reference.
SPEAKER_01Did you ever read that? I think I had one probably back in the day. I mean, this is before the internet uh just had so much knowledge in it. And then there's uh Dakes study bible. Ever seen that? Heard of it. Yeah, he was amazing. In the notes, uh Jesus wept, it had 200 reasons Jesus wept. I'm not kidding. It was just like it was just amazing.
SPEAKER_00It drove his wife crazy. I remember back in the early 90s when Franklin came out with this um Bible.
SPEAKER_01Franklin Graham?
SPEAKER_00Frank Franklin. No, the Franklin Instruments Company.
SPEAKER_01Oh.
SPEAKER_00It was uh it was like an electronic Bible, but you could search and it'd bring up verses for you, and it was like revolutionary.
SPEAKER_04I have a friend that just got uh recently got saved, and she sent me a picture of the New Testament, high-quality audio cassettes, traumatized with um sound effects for the New Testament. She's like, How am I supposed to listen to this? Word of promise? Uh word of promise. It is, let me see, it is what's what I listen to. Love it. She said, How am I supposed to listen to this? Where do I get a cassette player? There's an app. So I told her about the F. Get an F, you can listen to the Bible.
SPEAKER_03Speaking of, you guys reminded me, I meant to do this in the last podcast and forgot. Uh so a few times in the past, I have referenced the CSB Bible that I have, which uh connects New Testament old with any type of typology, um, any kind of references. And so it does that by in the same way that our Bibles have red letter for whenever Jesus speaks. The this one was like blue or purple, and it it highlighted anytime there was a typological reference, which then you can look at the Old Testament and figure it out. Well, I mentioned that on a podcast a few times, and then it got discontinued. So we got a lot of emails from people like, hey, I can't find this Bible, and I had to respond, so sorry, I just realized it was discontinued. But then the CSB came back with another one, and I just got it. It is phenomenal. So it's called the CSB Connecting Scripture. Uh, so it's only the New Testament, but here's how it works. I'm not getting paid for this, by the way. Although I should so it's only the New Testament. You open up and you'll read it, and like as you're reading John, it'll highlight blue or purple. Blue is anytime the New Testament is directly quoting scripture, which is pretty easy to notice because usually the scripture says as the scripture have said, right? That's that's pretty simple. But then the purple highlights anytime there is a reference, a typological reference to the Old Testament. And instead of having to flip to the Old Testament, they have all of the reference verses right underneath underneath, and they have GK Beal, who's like one of my favorite commentators of the day, commenting on the typological reference. And so, anyways, I was so excited. Again, on my own dollar, I bought three of them, and the first three listeners who DM me on Instagram and want them, just say, Hey, I want them, and I will ship them to you. Because I was so excited about that. So uh my Instagram is Oscar Navarro Official. Shoot me a DM if you want one of these, it's yours free. I just I was so excited, and for those who wanted one, shoot me a message.
SPEAKER_00They have a digital version, Oscar? I don't know, because I'm all analog when it comes to my Bible.
SPEAKER_01When it comes to my Bible, we've got to realize Jesus did not speak in red. Wait, what? All the time. Yes.
SPEAKER_00All right, friends. Podcast ranking. Shout out. Number nine in Kenya. Kenya, Kenya. I've been close to Kenya. Mark and I have Uganda.
SPEAKER_04Where are we at? In Kenya, you said number nine. Number nine, nice.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. All right, and now radical revolutionary resources. The tract sample pack, one of our favorites. It is. Indeed, it is. It has samples of the tracks and all that. In a pack. Pretty much all of our tracts. When you're undecided and you don't know what to get, get the track sample pack. We want you to use tracts, friends. And by the way, it's pronounced tracts. Not tracks.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, we should get some tracks. You don't have to stop at the sea every time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we want you to get tracts. We delight uh in being informed that you're giving them out. So giving what out? Tracks? Tracts. Ray, you remember your first tract being distributed? Yes.
SPEAKER_01What was it? Oh yeah, you told us. It was a guy standing next to a massive piece of corn. It was about five feet high. Oh, yeah. Remember that?
SPEAKER_00Wait, it was the first one you made and gave out.
SPEAKER_01First one I had printed. Oh. How big was it? The corn? The person sticks.
SPEAKER_00I remember seeing that. That corn wasn't real.
SPEAKER_01Well, it really depends on what you call a track, because I actually on one sheet of paper wrote something about skin and sin. It's not skin. And that's what a guy ordered 5,000. So I guess that was a track.
SPEAKER_00Track t. All right, friends. Get the track sample packed. Tracked. Pack. Packed. Then you'll know what we have and what you can get. Don't forget the Living Waters mug, they have a study Bible, Living Waters TV, all that.
SPEAKER_01It's actually mug.
SPEAKER_00And don't forget the podcast YouTube channel. Tens of thousands of subscribers. You can hear us and see us at the same time. Oh, did you like what I sent this morning, uh Ray, of Sue? What she does when she gets home. I don't know. That was a guy.
SPEAKER_01Whether he had a big big white wig on or something and take in his head like a maniac and saying, that's what mum does when she's by herself.
SPEAKER_00You used to say she'd go up on the roof and play.
SPEAKER_01Well, Kirk started that one. Yeah. My wife is extremely quiet. Oh, yeah. I don't know why. Yes. And uh she's very sweet, and so it's the antithesis to think of her standing at midnight up on the roof playing electric guitar. Which she doesn't do, by the way.
Escaping The Algorithm: Topic Set
SPEAKER_00Yeah. All right, friends. Today uh we're talking about escaping the algorithm, how the internet is shaping your soul. Man, I hate algorithms. I don't. I don't. You don't? No. You like that they're listening to you all the time and then figuring out what you like and then seeing it.
SPEAKER_01I'm not afraid of the Antichrist or the mark of the beast or any of those things. I'm not gonna, my heart's not gonna fail for fear of things that are coming upon the earth. I don't care. God's got me in his hand, bring it on. I don't care. You know, I really would like to get a t-shirt that just says I don't care written on.
SPEAKER_00I don't care. I don't care.
SPEAKER_04I don't care enough to answer.
SPEAKER_00Guys, it is weird though, right? I mean, when uh you better explain what an algorithm is. Well, an algorithm is is basically uh some sort of electronic reader that learns everything about you and then feeds you um what it knows you want.
SPEAKER_01So you don't like advertisements for dates and camels and stuff.
SPEAKER_00Oh right.
SPEAKER_03Insulting arrows. Um it might be more senile than that, actually. It's worse. Seriously, though.
SPEAKER_04An algorithm is a clear step-by-step set of instructions used to solve a problem or make a decision. And at its core, it's just a process.
What Algorithms Really Optimize For
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Okay. The problem with the algorithm, yeah. Yeah, the problem with the algorithm, as you as you pointed out, it's it's a it's a processor system that social media and news cycles, specifically your phone, uses to deliver you entertainment and or information. But it's I would just say one caveat or adjustment to the definition we just use, which is to give you what you want. I actually don't think the algorithm, I wouldn't define it as the algorithm gives you what you want, because I think in many ways, I want more peace in my life. I want to be more satisfied with the things the Lord has already given me. The algorithm does not do that. What the algorithm is designed to do is to get you to respond to movements, to consumerism, to ideals. And what we know about the human brain is one of the best ways to influence people to take action is through fear and anger. So the algorithm is essentially designed to make you afraid and make you frustrated because when you're in a state of fear or anger, you will buy more things. You will, you will advocate for more policies and politicians, you will take actions, you're afraid of missing out, so you'll you know put debt on your credit card to go on vacation. You're afraid that you don't fit in, so you'll spend way too much money on clothes. You're afraid that the people on the other side of the aisle are taking away your freedom, so you're gonna promote political X figure to s to protect you and keep you safe. Bottom line is the algorithm doesn't give you what you want, it feeds you what other people want from you, which is your attention.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, attention. So isn't it revealing something about your character, the algorithm? It absolutely is, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a good way to put it, Oscar. But but I'm thinking in terms of like, you know, fear, anger, chocolate chip cookies, right? Um that doesn't have anything to do with it. It just got my attention. Ooh, see, look at that. You know, the the part of the algorithm where um, you know, you search something or a video comes up, you click on it, right? There is that part of it that learns you and then begins to customize towards you. I mean, how many times have we heard people talk about they said something and then they've talked about some kind of product? Or maybe you did even recently, Mark, and then advertisements start popping up.
SPEAKER_01But Amazon's been doing that for years, and I like it.
SPEAKER_00I too.
SPEAKER_01I said, up comes stuff you might like, and I think this is interesting, and then sometimes there's something I like, and it doesn't worry me. If I don't like it, I don't buy it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but but but again, I want to be clear, you have different kinds of algorithms that do that kind of thing because there is that aspect of it, right, that does that. Right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, but you're talking about, which was the main thing we want to focus on. You're talking about the algorithm that that plays into your fallen sinful human nature, lures you in, hooks you, and then keeps you addicted almost in a sense.
SPEAKER_01You spoke, yes, the truth.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah. So Ray, you just talk things into the air, hoping the algorithm picks it up and sends you. Name it and claim it, speak it. Send it to me. But but guys, the strangeness of of this whole concept, right? Like how foreign it is to think back decades ago or even years ago. What do you mean, algorithm and knowing me and sending me stuff? And but and and how does that work? Is it that someone sets the parameters and codes it in and programs it? And then is AI now beginning to just figure this stuff out and tap into it?
SPEAKER_04You know, those are the things that Tristan Harris, he is a former Google design ethicist, and he said social platforms hire attention engineers who borrow design tactics from casinos to keep users hooked. Right? And oftentimes we reach for our phones before we reach for the Bible. Or we may say the Bible is on our phone, so we're gonna reach for our phone as an escape away, right? I mean, the first thing I do, you know, before I reach for the Bible is I reach for my glasses so I can see because my my eyes are terrible, you know, inside the Bible. You have a hymn. And we we need to be careful because every swipe is some sort of a form of discipleship. And I was reading earlier today that the amount of time that you spend looking at a picture or at a video, there is some internal information being swapped, right? We were considering uh having our bathrooms redesigned. And when we redesigned our bathroom, um when we're in that process, all of this bathroom uh redesigning companies just started coming up. Be done in a day, and all these stuff. And then when they they kept coming up after we redesigned our bathrooms, when I would swipe quickly past that, they begin to fade away. So you can reshape the algorithm based upon how long you are looking at that post or that video. It's able to read you. And I was I was reading something earlier today that uh within the first 15 seconds, TikTok knows what you want to look at that day by how fast you're swiping through the post.
SPEAKER_01That's interesting. So you can get rid of them by just swiping through everything really quick. We should have an app that swipes through everything at 90. Sorry.
SPEAKER_03You you mentioned you mentioned that algorithm causing you to want something in a harmless way by referencing a chocolate chip cookie, and in some ways that's true and and that's totally fine, but where it becomes harmful is where it it forces us to become dissatisfied with life. And that happens. Uh matter of fact, I saw it happening to my algorithm. My friend uh for my birthday let me borrow his like 1980s classic sports car uh for the weekend, and I I had you know it's a stick shift and had a great time because it's something I'll never own. Um, but I got to enjoy it, and he was so kind to trust me with it for two days. Oh, yeah. But then I got home, I went with the speed limit. I didn't actually, I didn't. I almost didn't.
SPEAKER_01There's isn't a great sound when you change the gear.
SPEAKER_03It was uh 87, 911 portion. Wait, did you say you almost got a ticket? Does that mean you got pulled over? Uh I didn't get a ticket, is what matters. But did you get pulled over? That's all. I didn't get a ticket. Yeah, I got pulled over. And he was in the car with me, actually. What? What? You're speeding with my son in your car? The timber just gone up in the studios. It was on PCH. You know how they change uh speeds like real quick on you? It goes from 45 to 35. Anyways, so there's back to my point.
SPEAKER_01Fast were you going?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think I was going like 45 when I.
SPEAKER_01Like is a really good thing to like 45 kids.
SPEAKER_03Somewhere between 100 and 45.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's no room in those things.
From Desire To Discontent
SPEAKER_03There's no room at all. That's the best. Here's my point. I got home and you know, I showed, I pulled up on Instagram, I showed the kids the car, whatever. And now for the next month, social media kept feeding me. It wasn't even like buy this classic car. It kept feeding me this influencer with this car and this and that. And suddenly I'm a month in and I'm on bring a trailer, like, man, maybe we can afford a classic car. Maybe this is something within our range. And I'm rearranging our finances and my brain and like trying to make an argument for it. It's like not all three of our kids are gonna go to college. One of them's gonna be a loser. Like I'm doing everything. What? What? Nothing. Lock that in. Donate. You've heard me make that joke. And and so, anyways, the point is that I spent so much time because of the algorithm, it made me want something I didn't need. So did you do that for search on online? It started with me just like pulling up, you know, when he said, like, you can borrow it, I pulled up the picture.
SPEAKER_01So now I'm almost watching you from the sky and says the algorithm classic.
SPEAKER_03The algorithm just saw me pull a picture up of a classic car, and it spent the next couple of weeks feeding me influencers and vibey videos of people cleaning their cars. Absolutely. And the problem is, the problem is this is the way the algorithm, it's not just a chocolate chip cookie. The algorithm makes you feel like five, seven years after you buy your home that it's too small. That two, three I mean, people buy new cars every three or four years, a waste of money. But they do it. Why? Because the algorithm is constantly making you go, I deserve better.
SPEAKER_01Isn't the algorithm just something uh that's been around for many years? I mean, we talk about wanting our attention, and that's exactly what advertisers have done for you is billboards, television advertisers. They want to make you feel discontent with that which you've got. Um satisfied with life.
SPEAKER_03It's just omnipresent now. They've added technology to it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's just gone steroids, but it's not really wanting our attention, it's wanting our pocketbook. That's what's behind the wanting the attention. They want your attention to get your money because the love of money is the root of all evil. So nothing's really changed. It's just it's the tenth commandment being violated. And Americans are very susceptible to it because you've got this mentality is that you've got to live on credit. That was something foreign to us when we came across here. You never get anything on credit except your mortgage. You know, you have even then it wasn't very very high in New Zealand. But over here, going in debt thousands of dollars, it's just unheard of. Why would you do that when you have to pay interest on something like that?
SPEAKER_00No, it's craziness. Yeah, I mean, I you know, as far as debt goes, I see the two legitimate things would be your home and a vehicle if you can't afford one or need one that's stable that, you know, to get you back to the street.
SPEAKER_01If you buy a cheap car, you're gonna spend more money on it than an expensive car.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right. But I'll tell you, we are, but that is such a that's such a good point because I think that's the one thing we forget about. So it's it's tempting you to buy on one hand, but on the other hand, you have the mechanisms in place to buy it now when you don't have the money for it.
SPEAKER_03That's my favorite part, actually.
SPEAKER_00The Apple Payne. Which ultimately is slavery. I'm not not talking about, you know, paying for it with the money you have in your account, but I'm talking about like credit card where you go into debt. And I haven't, I mean, I haven't put things on credit card, I can't remember the last time in terms of like debt. Uh, but what are interest rates at even with credit cards? Are they like in the I know back in the day they were in the 20s, 20%, 25%?
SPEAKER_01And what's with the advertisers say you can have this now and no payment for two years? How do they do that?
SPEAKER_00So the pay later scheme. Yeah, how does it how does that work? That's that's uh interest building, right?
SPEAKER_01So there's that's what's behind it. It's not yo.
SPEAKER_00So you get something that's a hundred bucks, you end up paying maybe a thousand for it, right? When it's all said and done, depending on you know, yeah. It's pretty crazy. I came across something, and I I want to talk about this that that was really interesting.
SPEAKER_01Sorry, can I say something? I just got a thought in my mind, and you can compare it. Oh no, go ahead. We need to have a poster where the Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want, and it has a list of things like a Porsche and all the things that you shall not want. Not take the Porsche off. Okay, leave the Porsche off. But it'd be funny to have all these pictures of things that we all want and need right now. We don't really need them. The Lord's our shepherd, but you don't want it.
Debt, Consumerism, And Coveting
SPEAKER_00Well, it's so true, right? Because that's the word that's replaced want, it's need. Yeah. I need very quickly. Uh, but one of the things I came across that that was really interesting, and I'd love to talk about it, is the algorithm being a discipler who disciples you without your permission. Yeah, absolutely. And in the sense that, you know, obviously you're searching, you're you're checking things out, but you're not asking for someone to come in and do that. But that's what's happening, you know? And and my question is is what do we do, guys? Because we're living in this age, there are things that we can't escape in a sense. How do we how do we keep ourselves from being shaped by this, from being hooked by this?
SPEAKER_03Before we I I definitely want to get there, and I'm excited about that, but before we get there, I think we should give some examples on how it disciples us. Because maybe people are listening to that going, like, okay, like I get that it makes me want to buy X, but how could the algorithm takes us too expensive? Sure, yeah. Uh, but how could that how could an algorithm be actually discipling me? And I can think of two or three different ways in which in which the the regular historic practice of community and discipleship has been replaced with algorithm. The first is in the dating sphere. And so, like right now, like historically, you met eye to eye with someone. Um, you came to understand them. And one of my favorite ways of explaining to people to understand who you might want to spend the rest of your life with is to be able to look at another person, to see the whole of their life, and to be able to say, I see what God is doing and who he's shaping you to be. And I want to be a part of that journey. I think when you can come to a place that's a healthy, beautiful thing, uh, it's a good sign that it's someone you might want to marry. But today, online dating has replaced gospel community. And now what people do is they overprioritize vibing, which means like these now, if you're single, it's like you're you're searching social media, you're searching dating apps, and you got a quick swipe left or swipe right, you're making a very quick decision based on a very quick image of somebody. And in your head, essentially what you're thinking in your mind is does this person fit my aesthetic? Do they fit the vibe I'm going for in my life? Rather than coming to know a person, you simply settle for the potential of the kind of influence and vibe they will have on your social media life.
SPEAKER_01Do they have a picture on there? I haven't been into those apps. Yes, they do. Thanks for a lot of different things about that, Ray. I wonder if anyone here's a picture of me when I first woke up this morning. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I love how Ray qualified. He hasn't been on a dating side. Really? Thank you, Ray.
SPEAKER_03You mean in New Zealand in the 70s, the app Sheepish wasn't open yet? 60s. 60s, my bad. Uh so here's another one, and this is another area where I see it happening all the time, uh, especially with young moms, is that young moms have replaced receiving information about how to parent their children from other young moms that they know and love, young moms that can are moms who have gone before them that can encourage them, but also give them grace. And that's been replaced with social media moms that have like shame and guilt if you're not raising your kids right and everything's gonna kill them, and what chemicals are in your home. And what it does is it has young moms just living anxious lives, trying to keep up with the mom vibes on social media because that's where they're getting their parenting advice, and they don't even realize that that's what they're getting their parenting advice. And again, the problem with that is that we were made to be raised in a community of people that help us through dating, to help us through parenting, and we've we've replaced that with dehumanized algorithms that's just feeding our fears and it's causing us anxiety, and it's not bringing us any closer to each other.
SPEAKER_01Izzy, can you think of any online platforms where moms are given good godly advice?
SPEAKER_00Oh, um, there's one I came across years ago called Joyful Mothers. Wow. It's spectacular. Rachel Zwain, yeah, my wife Ray's daughter. Um, yeah, it's been amazing. She's getting, I think she's at almost a hundred thousand followers between Instagram and Facebook. And um she's got a book coming out.
SPEAKER_01It's been amazing.
Algorithms As Unseen Disciples
SPEAKER_00Yeah, working on a book just about. She's getting invitations to speak, which is wonderful. It's been amazing. Because Oscar, that is such a great point. And I think it is good to put in a little caveat, and that is that there are there are good and bad influences in that rank in that realm. As an example, like the you know, the dating world. I've known a number of people that have met their their partners on on that. But but what's the motive, what's the purpose behind it? Some actually use it as just a you know social fun thing. Oh, let me just go out with a bunch of people.
SPEAKER_01So they're they're good Christian dating months? I wouldn't know. I've never used one.
SPEAKER_00You've never used one, right? Um, yeah. I mean, again, I've I have a cousin, I have two cousins that met their husbands and great marriages. I mean, others as well. Were they cousins? No. They marry cousins? You know, it is a legit question to ask Arabs. Yeah. Dating Arab was called family reunions. We're all related. It goes back to Adam.
SPEAKER_01So do they still have multiple marriages in in Lebanon?
SPEAKER_00Uh multiple wives, Muslims will. Yeah, it's not in Lebanon, it's a little more, it's not as a big of a thing. Catholicism. Yeah, you have that there, and socially it's just not that accepted. But yeah, people do it. But yeah, you have that, and then you have the the uh the parenting thing. You're oh when you said that, Oscar, um, it so resonated with me because I've seen so many of these young women just panic. Oh, that's this, it's got this in it, and that the whole you know, fear of everything, and and it compounds because it's just like you daily you're being fed this stuff, you know.
SPEAKER_03And there's no grace in it. You're a terrible mother if you let your kids use X. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00Really? Yeah. Or terrible mother, right? Or it's or on the other hand, it's bad parenting advice. Oh, you know, you don't need to discipline your kids or dental parenting, stuff like that.
SPEAKER_01Do you remember Dr. Spock? Is that before your day? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oh, 60s, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_01Spock, yeah. He was huge in getting people not to discipline their kids. We saw what happened after that.
SPEAKER_03He sacrificed his life to save his ship.
SPEAKER_01No, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_03That's Mr. Spock. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he had problems, he had problems with his ears. I remember that. Different spot. Yes, different spot.
SPEAKER_00So, but then but again, on the flip side, you have the good parenting sites like or mother and wife sites like Rachel has, you know. So it's learning to be discerning and careful and cautious.
SPEAKER_01Learning to be discerning, learning where you go.
SPEAKER_00To be discerning. We gotta get back, we gotta start returning to the things that are good, the things that are best, because when we do that, we'll be extremely blessed. Oh, Mark.
SPEAKER_04You know, we're not just being entertained, we are being reprogrammed. You know, yesterday for lunch after church, my daughter Ella and I we went to uh Blaze Pizza, and she showed me the Instagram page of an old friend her age, ish, about a year older, and uh she said, Hey, look what so-and-so is up to. I'm looking and I'm like, ooh. It's like every post was like this picture perfect post. She's showing like he's swiping her, she's like waving her hair in the wind and everything. And I said, Baby, this this is so toxic. And she didn't she didn't even realize it at the time. And I I don't follow this family anymore. They have since kind of moved away.
SPEAKER_01I like the way you don't do that with pictures of yourself online.
SPEAKER_04Not not that made me dizzy. Romans 12, 2 says, Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind. So, how can the mind be renewed when it is constantly distracted? Uh I I think that the answer to that is is very simple. It's to slow down. And if we were to speak uh almost in a pragmatic way to move forward, set a timer on your phone. You know, look at the magnifying glass on your friends or your whoever around you on their their page, right? Because that that search feature shows what that person is into, right? And it shows you what you're into. Yeah, that feed it, it feeds it, right? So I I think that we can kind of slow down and kind of reprogram uh our minds by just taking a timeout, putting ourselves in a in a timeout. Algorithms in them in and of themselves are kind of they're amoral, right? I mean, I utilize algorithms when solving a Rubik's Cube. A Rubik's Cube, there's only, I mean, there's less than 50 algorithms, I think, to solve a Rubik's Cube. But you can solve any Rubik's Cube, no matter how messed up it is, with seven algorithms. Seven moves, you can solve the entire Rubik's Cube. Consider the basics, pull it into what you're dealing with right here, right? You can kind of get out of this rut by implementing a couple simple algorithms. So this is how these guys do it, they do it like in 10 seconds?
SPEAKER_00Oh, yes. 10 seconds is a long time for a lot of it. Yeah, it's meaning like a fully scrambled Rubik's cube. Yeah, yeah, I'm just gonna be.
SPEAKER_01And it's done, and you think, what?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, three seconds.
SPEAKER_04I'm sorry, I got a question for you, Carol. Everything I just said. Yeah. All you've heard of was Rubik's Cube?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, of course. Because of the colors, all the little squares and colours on the little stairs. Poor Mark, he's gonna start getting ABS if you're pairing it. Yeah, not out living. What is Rubik's Cube or scriptures on either?
SPEAKER_03That was actually a really good mark.
SPEAKER_01I and you're you're sold but not comes to scripture. Yeah, because it's not doesn't make sense until it all lines up. I got this, I got this. Lawsuit, lawsuit. Just moving my gun. You have a loose hair. You have a loose hair. Yeah, yeah, don't touch that.
SPEAKER_04It's like this long. Um, I don't know where I'm going. What can what are so okay? So, what are some good algorithms that we could utilize to reprogram ourselves when we are caught up in this endless scrolling? Because I don't know about you, but I've done it. I've got caught up in this endless scroll loop. I look down and an hour is gone when I was excited to utilize that hour for study or for prayer or for fill in the blank.
Parenting, Dating, And Online Echoes
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I've done it and I feel so indescribably empty when I'm like, what did I just do? Right. Look, there's times to unwind. There are there are times when that's fine, right? But but there are times when you know you should be doing something else that's more productive. Uh and like watching dogs. Dog videos. Playing and doing Rubik's cues. Yes, that sounds good. Yeah. Um, but but there has to be again that measure of self-control where you you get to a place where you catch yourself. You don't just have this default of just going. Like honestly, this morning, Oscar brought sidecar, sidecart, sidecar, sidecar donuts, okay, which are known to be like delicious, the best article.
SPEAKER_04I had them yesterday and had them the day before.
SPEAKER_00Did you really? I had a boy.
SPEAKER_01I could see.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I I'm dying, right? Because I'm I'm you know, I'm trying to control myself. You guys heard I'm I'm I'm doing this regimen.
SPEAKER_04But I'm I'm when you get to see results, when do you begin to see the results for what you're doing to your body? Yeah. We're waiting.
SPEAKER_00Like, when do we get a COVID? I hope soon. Um, but you know, I I'm restricting myself to one free day, right? Saturday, usually Saturday or Sunday, and then I'll I'll enjoy some things. But but it's it comes down like I can't tell you how many justifications ran through my mind.
SPEAKER_04You did really good yesterday.
SPEAKER_00You didn't go towards you looked at the donuts, but you said, I'm not gonna do it. Yeah, and you walked away. I made that determination. And I think that that's honestly like we talk about simplifying things. It that's as simple as it gets. Control yourself and don't do it, but build the habit of not doing it regularly, right? There may be not donuts or algorithms now.
SPEAKER_04I'm talking about yeah, so there is an addiction attached to eating. There's an addiction attached to your phone.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, how do you remove yourself now?
SPEAKER_04I I mean this is I need I need the brass.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'd like to say something here. Right. I think easy nailed it with the whole self-control thing because algorithms are here to stay, phones are here to stay, so we use them for our growth, not for our destruction. I mean, what do you do on your phone? If you want to grow in Christ, you go to places where you can grow in Christ. If you want to want to read the word online, that that's a great thing, especially with what you're talking about. You know, that before stuff that we just didn't have ten years ago, we can grow in Christ and just get to solid teachings and listen to them. I often do that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, here here's a and I'd love us to go around and share. Here are a couple of things I highly recommend. First of all, uh organize your priorities, which means I you know, I I've talked about this with my kids for years. You know, donuts first. Do what? Donuts first. Donuts. You're killing me, right? Even just hearing it. Um the cinnamon ones here. Yeah. The sin of men.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Just eat the Santa. Uh-huh. You'll be fine. Oh, I like that. They're holy.
SPEAKER_00So, first of all, right, priority. Um, determine that you're going to do what's most important first. Or even sometimes the thing you want to do least. It doesn't mean you hate it or it's, you know, it just means that you know, as an example, the word or prayer or devotions or whatever. You know that spiritually, you know, the spirit is welling the flesh is weak. You know that's the area where you're gonna be drawn uh away uh toward other things. So you just say, uh that's gonna be first. Before I watch TV, before I start surfing, before I start going down the room.
SPEAKER_04I have a problem though, Izzy. And it's it's generated. Maybe you could help me with it. And it's this is honesty. I go, all right, so I'm going to get inside the word first before I go to social media.
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_04And then I open up and I read a verse, and all I'm thinking about is checking my email. So all I'm thinking about is going to that post to see how it's performing.
SPEAKER_00And I've done the same thing, Mark, and here's what ends up happening because that's how I reason it. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because I'm so anxious, I'm thinking, I'll go do that and then come back, then I could have peace of mind. It hardly ever works. I go there and I'm hooked. Yeah, so it becomes almost legalistic, though, right?
SPEAKER_04And I I said I set myself up almost for failure. I I did it the other day. I got, I'm I'm going to read the word of God first before I do anything else.
SPEAKER_01You just say this for 10 seconds.
SPEAKER_04I'm gonna do this for 10 seconds. Lower the 10 seconds. Right. So, but but how do we? I I want to I don't want to do that. I don't I don't want to get caught inside that rut. I want to know there is no, and do you you guys recommend a a sabbatical, perhaps, from social media? Yeah is that a good idea? Yeah, just have an hour off.
SPEAKER_03I think it's important to recognize here what's going on in our brains and why that's happening. Thank you. Um, because here's what's what's going on is as you mentioned earlier before, we we now know that these engineers design social media. They designed our phones essentially to feel like a casino experience. And and what that is, what that's happening is your brain is that your brain is having serotonin levels. Chemical responses fire off, telling you that you've accomplished something, telling you that you've been satisfied with something. And there are these small little short hits. Now, God designed our brains to give us those serotonin kicks, those dopamine kicks when when and only after we've worked hard to accomplish something. So, in other words, if you go outside and you run five miles, you repress dopamine for five miles, and when you get to the finish line, your brain fires off dopamine. God gave that gift to you so that you know what it feels like to accomplish a thing. What your phone is now doing is manipulating that. You accomplish nothing, but it gives you micro doses of dopamine and serotonin every time you see that you got 15 new likes and four comments and three followers, and you're just trying to read your Bible.
SPEAKER_01Can you buy dopamine in you?
SPEAKER_03Actually, yes. My mom was addicted to it. Really? Yeah, I know drug dealers. Thanks a lot, right?
SPEAKER_00Your iPad heard that, right? Yeah. You're gonna start getting dopamine. There it comes. Your memory starts coming in because it didn't recognize the accent.
SPEAKER_03So you just ask, like, what do I need to do? I would tell you this in the same way, when you sit, I imagine if someone walked up to you and was like, Yeah, every time I read my Bible, I I have this trigger that I want to have a cigarette. And so my thought is I should just go outside and have a cigarette. That way I can get it out of my way and come back and read my Bible. Good thinking. You would say you you have an addiction issue. Yeah. Okay, we are all, this is like the no, this is judgment free zone. Yeah. We all have addiction issues to our phone. Every single one of us have those micro dopamine hits.
SPEAKER_01So I gotta say, I I agree with you guys. I have the same addiction. I'm not saying I'm up this other.
Discernment, Good Influences, And Grace
SPEAKER_03So, what do we need to do? We need first, we need to diagnose it properly. We have an addiction issue. And to say, well, all I'm going to do is replace. The bad algorithm with the good algorithm. Again, as much as like following easy mark, Ray, myself, we post good stuff, but we can't replace in-person incarnational community. If you're trying to replace what God means to be doing in and through community with what you do on your phones, you're gonna fail. So, in other words, the answer isn't to manipulate your addiction issue. The answer is to start working to get rid of your addiction issue. And so let's treat it like an addiction, Mark. You just suggested like, do we detox, treat it like a digital detox? I need to detox my brain from these micro dopamine hits that I'm getting right when I wake up, all the way to when I go to bed, and then make a detox plan. As a matter of fact, I've seen some secular organizations put out their healthy social media and phone detoxing plans that create like here's when you go, here's when you don't go online, here's when you're gonna use it. Not start with like a weekend of not using your phone.
SPEAKER_01I found that when I keep watching, couldn't stop watching that. I implemented something called nope. You know, it really is it's just similar to dessert in the main course. You just some people want to go to the dessert straight away because it's sweet. That's it.
SPEAKER_04Oscar ordered dessert and pizza at the same time when we were in Italy. Um yeah, that's a lot of things.
SPEAKER_01Oscar was just saying that was a great point when you interrupted him. What was that, Oscar? Say it again.
SPEAKER_00Uh you pointed to the sky and I said that was a great point. Well, I I wanted to say too, you know, not everything's a perfect parallel, but like you were talking about how you know you you get that that dopamine hit and stuff, like when you run or when you do whatever, and you're talking about when you get those micro ones as you're searching stuff. The difference is it's like drugs, right? I mean, it gives you that high, but it's an unnatural high, and there's always the crash in a sense. Absolutely. And I think that's where we pay for it on the back end, where it's like, man, you feel that that hollowness and that just the the brain kind of melt, you know, where it's what's going on, you know.
SPEAKER_03So that's actually that's called something that is like a dopamine depletion. Yeah. When your brain is so low that you feel disgusted and depressed for wasting your time, you take your 15-minute break, your dopamine levels start to level off again, and then you're right back on your phone. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, the thing is when reading scripts, it's gone triple speed.
SPEAKER_00But I but again, like I was saying earlier, the the first thing I recommend, yeah, is is priority, prioritize. And that's gonna take self-control, you know. And sometimes it could be like, look, I'm gonna, I'm gonna read the word, then I'm gonna, you know, take a five-minute break and do a few things, but control yourself in that, then I'm gonna get back, then I'm gonna pray, spend time in prayer, you know. So it's okay to split things up, but just just so that you have a rhythm of self-control. Because if you put the spiritual stuff like for later, you're you're probably going to miss out uh on engaging because you're just gonna get sucked in. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So how close is your phone to your prayer prayer meeting?
SPEAKER_00Do you have it like my prayer list is on my phone? No, that's your problem.
SPEAKER_03It's like putting your prayer list in your cigarette pack. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I've gotten to a place where for the most part I have I have self-control in that, but it took a while.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so well, I can give you a um uh a magnet that you can put on your roof that you can just what do you think?
SPEAKER_04Listen to some of these stats, guys. Yeah. Uh the average adult spends six hours and 58 minutes per day looking at a screen.
SPEAKER_01So what are you doing at the moment?
SPEAKER_04The average TikTok user spends 95 minutes per day on the platform. 64% of Gen Z, that's 1997 to 2012, say they regularly learn about moral or social issues from social media influencers. 28% of U.S. teens say that they would rather go to YouTube for answers to life's big questions than to a parent, a pastor, or a teacher. That's why we need to be there. And 13% of these stats are off.
SPEAKER_03I don't 97% of the stats you read online is made up. I just made that up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, guys, look, you know, Proverbs 423, keep your heart with all diligence, right? We know out of it spring the issues of life. There has to be a diligence in guarding ourselves. So there's the priority. I'd say the second thing is is also time management, time management control. Because you could say, well, I'm prioritizing. Well, I read the word, I prayed, I, you know, did whatever, I nurtured my soul, but then you spend an inordinate amount of time on those things. So you have to be careful there, you know. I I think we have to look and say, What'd you do, Ray? I don't know. I have no idea what you did. I just heard a noise over there. Umises again, easy. But but that time management, time control. Look, time is precious, you guys. We we can't treat it like we can spend it arbitrarily, like it's ours.
SPEAKER_01You know, the it would be a good idea to have on your phone. The first thing comes up is redeem the time for the days of evil. Oh, wow.
Reprogramming Attention And Self‑Control
SPEAKER_00That came up as a default. You know, reminders like that are key. But but keeping but being diligent about it is what I'm saying. Like you can't just think, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna control this and just kind of go about like Mark's playing chess on his phone.
SPEAKER_01Oh no.
SPEAKER_00I'm winning. I guess that's good for your brain, Chad.
SPEAKER_03I I in addition to that, I also think it's creating new practices. Uh, you know, it's so easy for us to pull up any information that we want and need, whether we're parenting, the how-tos of life, whatever the case, it's easy for me to pull up the greatest theologians that ever walked the planet and ask them a question. But the problem is that I'm not just being informed, I'm also being formed. And God means to form me in community. And so while while there is no one in my local church that has greater wisdom than, you know, Spurgeon, Keller, MacArthur, like you Calvin, Luther, that that stuff. It's it's amazing that we have the gift of the internet and that we can pull all that up. But I'm also made to be formed, not just informed. And God means to form me in the context of community, meaning when I sit down across the table from a retired firefighter who loves those same authors, he might not be as knowledgeable, but he can pass wisdom to me that I cannot get from a dead theologian. And as I've said before, we are so often wisdom, I'm sorry, we are so often knowledge rich and wisdom poor. Your problem is that you don't have enough information, it's everywhere. The problem is that we lack wisdom, and that can only be gotten as iron sharpens iron and embodied interactions with human beings.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Piper said the greatest enemy of hunger for God is not poison, but apple pie. I love that. The point is, it's not like bad stuff looking bad, like okay, necessarily like porn as an example, um, that that's going to be what it is that lures us away from the Lord, per se. But it's going to be something that seems legit. You know, apple pie, oh, apple pie, you know, but but it it's gonna it's gonna lead you in the wrong direction.
SPEAKER_01What's all I can think of is apple pie.
SPEAKER_00Apple pie donut right over there, easy.
SPEAKER_01Seriously, what's the thing? Talking about food.
SPEAKER_03It's in my head.
SPEAKER_01Ice cream on the top. What mark, what mark? Apple pie.
SPEAKER_04This may go over some of you guys' head. I'm gonna talk about uh truth now. That's why I got it. One of the problems with social media is that it feeds into your presuppositions. Yeah, it does. Right? So it feeds you you you attach yourselves to some information, and then it becomes an echo chamber to what you already believe to be true. I'll give you an example uh an example of this, and by way of confession. When the second uh election went when Trump lost to Biden, I was watching the election, and I thought for sure Trump was going to win. I thought for sure Trump was absolutely going to destroy Biden in every single state, including California. That's what I thought. Wow. And then it dawned on me my news feeds. What am I watching?
SPEAKER_02That's good, dude.
SPEAKER_04What am I listening to? Yeah. Right? Who do I surround myself with? And I put myself inside of an echo chamber where I'm now just listening to the same exact things over and over again. So therefore, there was a paradigm shift and there was an awakening in the midst of that. When you feed that scrolling, you are creating an echo chamber. That's so good. And therefore, what here's the danger, though. Here's my point. You can't carry on a conversation now with somebody with an alternate position. When somebody comes along and saith and says, you know, hey, I believe that uh babies should be uh sprinkled, or I think I think that babies should be baptized, I think that they should be sprinkled. When you are fully immersed, let me use that word, with the idea that only believers are to be baptized, you can't have now a conversation with somebody with a different view, a tertiary position. And that's the that's a danger when you stay within that scrolling.
SPEAKER_03I just want to interact with that for a minute because you're absolutely right. We we do, we have these echo chambers that's creating tribalism. And tribalism is a major problem for Christians who are called by God to reach the lost, because tribalism makes us look at other people as an us versus them. And it is very hard to have a loving compar conversation with somebody when you when you think you're better than them, when you think you have the moral high ground, and tribalism causes that. But the other thing it does, as you just mentioned, is that I mentioned earlier the problem with vibes is that we are so overloaded with information now that when we do receive information that's counter to our presuppositions, we fall back on vibes. And there's actually uh Brett McCracken pointed out this great moment between Charlie Kirk and this young woman in one of those like group talk conversations. I don't, you know, the name of the organization that does that. Tony Point? Anyways, it doesn't matter. He's having this conversation with this young lady, and she uses the phrase fetus because they're arguing about abortion. And he says, Do you know, do you know what fetus means? And she like circles around and he goes, Fet it, fetus means um little baby. And um he presents her with truth and then he smiles and she responds like, ew, your smile's creeping me out. And the entire crowd around them clap in agreement with her. Here's why that moment is so important. Because this is what happens to all of us. We're presented new information that makes us uncomfortable, and we default back to vibe. We like, okay, boomer, oh this and oh that, and we our brains default back to the simple, the comfortable, the safe rather than interacting with new information that might challenge the way we see the world. And so that's the other problem is that we we rely on vibes because we can't handle truth.
Addiction, Dopamine, And Digital Detox
SPEAKER_00You can't handle the truth. Oscar, um, I think you're talking about the is it the surrounded, like when they have the jubilee. Jubilee, that's it. That's it. It's a Jubilee moment I was referencing. You know, I was wondering how different if they were to analyze people who were living before the internet age and analyze the way they thought, acted, functioned compared to people today. And I wonder how evident it would be, Oscar, in terms of what you talked about, right? Like that we have more knowledge but less wisdom, if we if we would see a deeper wisdom, uh just a deeper soul, a deeper character in people, you know, who weren't just like in that echo chamber like you're talking about. You know. Um as we wrap up, I I just want to highlight this quote by Paul Tripp. He said, we don't just think our way into wrong living. We live our way into wrong thinking. We live our way into wrong thing. In other words, we we structure our lives in such a way and surround ourselves with voices that lead us to that wrong thinking. I mean, it begins with with the actions we take, the places we put ourselves, the time we spend, what we interface with, that then begins to affect and impact our thinking. And here's my biggest fear of all it's desensitization to what's happened to us. Like we don't realize it. We we don't even we don't even know that it's happening. And so we we we are less prone to break out of the cycle, you know. So that's why I'm glad we're talking about it and and um you know, are are causing ourselves to really chew on these things like a donut. No donut. Are you guys are you guys shaping my algorithm through the donut?
SPEAKER_01So the conclusion of the matter is that algorithms aren't evil, but we've just got to be discerning and disciplined so that they don't pervert us into moving away from the things of God. That's right.
SPEAKER_00Self-control and being God-oriented in everything that we do, like getting back to the habit of running everything through the filter of Lord, does this please you? Does this please you? Whether, you know, eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Amen. And there needs to be that examination. So there you have it. You don't have to do that. I know I don't, but I want to because just be annoying. It's my singing algorithm that I'm sending out. So, friends, make sure to check out the track sample pack so that you can go out and give out tracks. That's a good algorithm there. Don't forget to like, subscribe, share, and don't forget thoughts, questions, suggestions, all at podcast at livingwanders.com. Thank you for joining us, friends. We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast, where we have no idea what we're doing.
SPEAKER_01Well, you don't.
