Ep. 383 - Why So Many Christians Feel Spiritually Numb Today

Apathy rarely shows itself openly, but it silently dulls conviction, softens courage, and weakens testimony over time. Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar challenge believers to consider whether their once burning zeal for God has gradually faded into comfort and indifference. They explain that apathy is a slow drift—a growing complacency about sin, the lost, and God's glory. They warn that spiritual indifference is dangerous because it often cloaks itself in routine, distraction, and even outward activity. Believers must continually ask the Lord to search their hearts, put on the full armor of God, and stay alert against subtle compromise. The gospel can be offensive, so courage is needed to speak and act despite possible consequences.

The guys explore how apathy often grows out of comfort and self-sufficiency. Looking to Revelation, they note that spiritual lukewarmness is described as ineffective for God’s purposes, a condition rooted in ease rather than persecution. Comfort dulls urgency, while discomfort exposes dependency on God. Apathy toward the lost often stems from forgetfulness, forgetting the reality of judgment and the call to encourage fellow believers. The disciples themselves were prone to forget, proving this struggle is not new. The guys emphasize that self-defense in conflict can reveal hidden idols, and accusations can become opportunities for growth. 

The guys warn against a sentimental view of Jesus that neglects His authority and rule. Christ demands submission and rewards those who earnestly seek Him with more of Himself. Zeal comes from knowledge, recognizing the need for God and actively pursuing Him through prayer and Scripture. They caution against constant noise and spiritual distractions that mimic godliness without creating depth. Silence before God, intentional prayer, and a willingness to face fear are crucial for reigniting passion. Carrying gospel tracts, using free moments to share faith, and refusing to listen to fear foster a lifestyle focused on others rather than self-centered comfort.

Finally, the guys remind listeners that the gospel not only saves but also sustains. Christians never graduate from relying on grace, and spiritual maturity deepens that awareness. Self-assessment, intentional remembrance, and consistent time in God’s Word protect against drifting away. Today is the day to respond to His call because tomorrow is not guaranteed. By turning down the noise, running to Christ instead of chaos, and choosing diligence over distraction, believers can shift from apathy to fervor and live lives filled with holy desire and bold testimony.

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Visit the Living Waters website to learn more and to access helpful resources!
You can find helpful counseling resources at biblicalcounseling.com.
Check out The Evidence Study Bible and the Basic Training Course.

You can connect with us at podcast@livingwaters.com. We're thankful for your input!
Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro

Transcript

Defining Apathy And Zeal

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Apathy is a a numbness. What's the question? It's a numbness about what? It's a numbness about the fate of the lost. This is what I think. It's a bedfellow of discouragement. When you get discouraged, you tend to become numb and apathetic about the Great Commission. What does it look like? It wakes up in the morning and thinks about itself. How can I make myself most happy today? It's self-centered, self-absorbed, and self-indulgent. But a life that's fueled by zeal for God's will is a life of self-denial. It wakes up in the morning and says, How can I serve God today? And from my understanding of Scripture, to do that means to joyfully follow in the footsteps of Jesus, who said he was here to seek and save that which is lost. So nothing in this world matters for me. It's transient, it's chasing the wind, but most importantly, it's evil. Everything about it is like Lazarus after four days. It should stink in our nostrils. Because we want to do God's will. And so the Christian says with Jesus, let the dead bury the dead, we have something infinitely more important to do, and that's to seek and save that which is lost.

Humor Break: Knives, Windows, And Tools

SPEAKER_05 1:15

It's one thing to talk to yourself. It's one thing to laugh to yourself. It's one thing to snort to yourself. But friends, when you do all three of those things at the same time, you know you've got something special going on. That happened with me this morning. Did it? Yeah. Um I was in the mirror. I was at the sink in my bathroom, and I think I finished brushing my teeth. And I started. You think you'd finished your brushing? I think, because I do that a couple times a year, brush my teeth. I think it was that special moment. And I started laughing because I remembered that that I was just laughing the day before with Rachel uncontrollably in the kitchen. And I started laughing over that, but couldn't remember what it was we were laughing about. So I wake Rachel up, she's dead asleep. And she's what? Dead asleep. She died. She she couldn't remember. She actually thought I was asking her about a few weeks ago, but I was asking her about really last night. And then I I was so frustrated because I couldn't remember, but then I finally remembered what it was.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

What did you ask chant?

SPEAKER_05 2:28

It probably knows, right? We talked about algorithms on a recent episode. Yeah. Um but but I finally remembered what it was, and we were just dying, belly, belly laughing. I I went to cut something in the kitchen and realized we've had the same knives for 30 years. Rickety. They're like, you know, they have the wooden handles on them, and you know, they're just older, and they they and they don't cut any. And it dawned on me. I'm like, hey Rachel, have you ever thought of buying new knives? Like the thought never occurred.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

So is this one of those Christmas things you want, and you're just very subtly saying you want these things?

SPEAKER_05 3:07

Well, we just it just hit us both with 30 years, and it never occurred to us to buy new knives.

SPEAKER_06 3:11

What I'm hearing is that it's been 30 years since the last time Easy walked into the kitchen.

SPEAKER_05 3:16

You know what? Pretty true. If you stop eating out. Oh, so anyway, she got new knives. And the reason why we started laughing at it is because I'm like, these are amazing. Like they cut, they actually cut stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

You didn't you don't sharpen your knives. Nah, I don't know. Do you know how to sharpen a knife, Easy? Wait, do you have a knife sharp?

SPEAKER_05 3:33

I asked her about a knife sharpener. She said there there aren't any really good ones you can get. Are there? What? One sharpen. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_06 3:42

You're the no the man is supposed to sharpen the knives.

SPEAKER_05 3:44

Not the sharpest knife in the twin. I remember you guys remember the uh the old can openers. I don't know if they still have those. They all used to have uh sharpeners on the back, right? Oh boy. I don't know if those are good.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

I could teach you how to sharpen a knife.

SPEAKER_05 3:58

You have knives, but Mark, these are like old cheesy knives.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

They're gone, he's got new knives.

SPEAKER_05 4:02

Anyway, the ones we got are so cool. They're like uh keep them sharp. They're all it's uh there's no division or wood, it's all like one thing. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, it's no cracks and crevices.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

How about you would look at your fingers and enjoy them at the moment? Do you know what the brand is? That we got?

SPEAKER_05 4:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Should you see?

SPEAKER_05 4:19

I don't know, but they're really good. Is Ginzu? You know, those are cheap, right? Ginzu? Why use it as a joke? I say cheap Ginzoys.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Those advertisements years ago.

SPEAKER_05 4:30

What are good knives? Because look, there's this place called uh Kitch, uh, what is it? Uh Target? No, no. Chef's Toys or something like that.

SPEAKER_06 4:37

Oh, Chef's Chef's Kitchen, Chef's toys. You know who I asked is I because I was sick of our knives, and so I shot Lance a text. Oh, yeah. And I was like, dude, give me a knife. Like here's I I love chopping up chicken for tacos. I, you know, and so he sent me a few options and I picked the one I could afford. And it's like the kids call it my samurai sword because it it can chop.

SPEAKER_05 5:01

Knives are expensive, yeah. Like it's not some cheap mark. You ask like you're a connoisseur.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Like you know, no, I'm not, I'm not a connoisseur, but there there are a few knife brands out there. I it's an important tool. Yeah. Del strong D-A-L, S-T-R-O-N G, Del Strong, makes some amazing, amazing knives. Wow. That I would recommend. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:20

Yeah. But these, I mean, I'm like, it's just so weird that like it's like your window is never cleaned for years and you can't see through it, and you're saying, oh, this is a solid window. Then you clean. It's like, these knives are glorious.

SPEAKER_06 5:33

Dude, I went on a I binged, dude. I went down a YouTube rabbit hole because I washed my car recently and I get in and I can see streaks on my window. And so then I'm like, how do I get rid of these streaks? I turned into easy, dude. And I went down a YouTube, I bought like this microfiber. They used to say newspapers waffle. No way. But it was the microfiber waffle towel, and I bought this special spray, and there's this three-step process, and I did it, and I can see it doesn't even look like there's a window there anymore. And now every time a bug hits it, I'm like, like it's bagging. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

We're talking about the inside and outside.

SPEAKER_06 6:16

Oh, and then on the outside, I put a ceramic coating so that water just beads right off of it.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Can you send me a link to what you got?

SPEAKER_06 6:22

Better, I'll I'll do it to your car. Really?

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Next time. Or Suze car. Is it small enough I can get up another second? This is a Seuss car. It's been driving a crazy. Really? Yeah, yeah, in the weekend. We just coming back from the Christmas party, we had trouble seeing it. Oscar could be our age.

SPEAKER_05 6:37

Oscar got a new car. So now he's he's used. It's not new, it's used. It's not the duct taped car anymore that he used to have.

SPEAKER_06 6:45

But I uh I will. I I will send you links, please. And or I'd love to come and do it for her if yeah. So yeah, favoritism.

Listener Question: Training For Evangelism

SPEAKER_05 6:53

I've been in the flesh last few days because my daughter borrowed my car. I won't say her name. So Kylie borrowed the car. And um and she's cruising around with her friends, and one of her friends started started to write on the inside of the window. And so now it's just every time you know it fogs up or whatever, I see the residents driving. I mean that's haven't been able to go get the car cleaned. So anyway, yeah, that's uh good stuff. All right, time for a cool classy comment. This is from Matthew Nelson, I would assume, K-N-E-L-S-E-N. Hey brothers, my name is Matthew from Wheatley, Ontario, Canada. How boot that a guys, I appreciate your ministry sincerely. You guys have taught me so much through your ministry, and God has used you guys severely in creating a desire in me and many people I know to reach the lost and giving us tools to do so. Our church started an evangelism ministry a couple of years ago. I and some other guys are learning how to structure our nights and how to help and equip the people in our church who come out with us to evangelize. I recently purchased your evangelism training course. And first of all, thank you for making the PDF downloads to use to help train us all. From a teaching perspective, what might be too much information to go through in one sitting? We meet every Thursday and are planning on doing a teaching night once a month. And if we did one lesson a month, that would be 101 months to go through this. LOL. Just looking for some guidance or even how you guys structure your ambassador's academy. I'd like to be able to do something similar eventually. With you guys being an experienced as experienced as you are, I'd really appreciate your input. Much love, Matthew. Matthew in Ontario, Canada. Our brother Corey McKenna is out in that region.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

You know, that reminded me, you know, occasionally we have questions that are like submitted and stuff. Yeah. We should consider from time to time starting off the podcast with answering a question. That's a good idea.

SPEAKER_06 8:52

Can we do that instead of singing?

SPEAKER_05 8:54

No, we can't. We cannot. No, that's a good idea, Mark.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

What's a Gregorian monk?

SPEAKER_05 8:59

Gregorian monk. A monk from Gregoria.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

They used to sing, didn't they? That's up.

SPEAKER_05 9:04

Uh good idea, Mark. So, yeah, any any thoughts on this, guys? How to structure it to where uh it's not too much information and kind of they could get through times of teaching.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

Well, uh, let me let me say this. I think that we can get boggled down with too much teaching and not going. All right, you the fishless fishermen say that ten times fast. And and we don't go. So I think a lot of times we can grow as we go. Right. I'm not saying that we need to remove the classroom, we we need to study, but um, I think that a lot of times you can never go and you're only growing. Yeah. So make sure you go, make sure you go. Make sure you go.

SPEAKER_05 9:49

Well, I assume they're alluding to the 101, uh, you know, the school biblical evangelism, 101 lessons. I I would say maybe something that'd be good to do is everyone reads a lesson at home or goes through it at home on their own, and then you get together and you just in a real succinct way, just share the points that struck you. You're ready for it.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:06

So yeah, I remember hearing a guy, I just want to reemphasize what you said. I remember hearing a pastor one day point out, like, imagine, imagine, you know, to study and and come up with the idea of theology, apologetics, evangelism, and to not do it. He said, Imagine I told my daughter, go clean your room. And she was like, Okay, you know, and she leaves and she goes into her room, and then he walks in there, and her daughter's sitting there with a five-point presentation to all her friends about how her father told her that she ought to clean her room, and she's doing this while her room's still dirty. He's like, at some point, you have to just do the thing the Lord has called you to do. And so, to your point, that's exactly right. Go. Like, I remember years ago, I uh I won this racing academy thing through my old job. And so we got to go and we sat in this huge warehouse and we watched this video about car racing, and then we sat in a car while the other driver, a professional race car driver, raced the car, and you're sitting there with your helmet, he's telling you what to do. And then the next step is he moves into the passenger seat and I move into the driver's seat, and now he's walking me through when to shift and how to hit my axis and things. And that's a great model for evangelism. If you're gonna host a conference, show them, well, teach them, then show them, then have them do it. That's the academy.

SPEAKER_05 11:22

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and uh, if you haven't come out to one, Matthew, we'd love to have you. So sign up and come and you can see firsthand how it's done. All right, podcast rankings, shout out number 26 in Canada, number 73 in the US of A.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

We love the United States. Oh, and Canada. Never been there.

Courage Versus Apathy In Real Life

SPEAKER_05 11:41

Yeah, this is um this is uh in on Apple and it's for the Christian podcast category. But in Canada, that's number 26 for Christian, but number 36 in all religious podcasts, 73 in the US for Christian, 99 out of all religious podcasts. That means every religion you can imagine.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Do we know how many religious podcasts? Don't like that word, how many religious podcasts they have? 32. So they skip some.

SPEAKER_05 12:05

Yeah, there's gotta be thousands, you know, for sure. Yeah, so trillions, trillions, quadrillions. All right, and now a radically revolutionary resources podcast is brought to you by Fittingly, the School of Biblical Evangelism. 101 lessons. You can get it in online uh version or form or the online book. Mark, the school's been around 2001.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

Was it really 2001? 25 years.

SPEAKER_05 12:33

It's gonna be 25 years. We better have a celebration. Wow. It's hard to the internet was going 2000, it was up and running. I just about bit. But friends, check it out. As you heard from Matthew, it's it's had an impact on them. And the thing I love about school biblical evangelism is it doesn't just uh instruct you on what to do, it gives you challenges, like things you're supposed to go out and do, and that holds you accountable. So check it out. It's frightening. Yeah. What? It's frightening.

SPEAKER_02 13:03

I don't like it can't be going to get the living waters.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

Oh no. Going over to your neighbor and witnessing to them, we came up with those wonderful ideas for people to do.

SPEAKER_05 13:12

Ray, Ray, can you imagine going to someone's house to try to witness to them and they have a son named Lucifer? Can you imagine something like that happening?

SPEAKER_01 13:20

I remember that.

SPEAKER_05 13:21

Yeah. What did you do when you heard that, Ray? Was that that's New Zealand, right? Yeah. Yeah. They actually had a son named.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

They had a son named Lucifer. And I'm going to say, what are your other kids' names? Judas, Jezebel, Adolf, Latin Adolf. Adolf was the last one. Yeah. Quadruplates. Yeah. Oh man. So I had to witness to them. God, I felt so convicted because I was condescending when I heard that towards, oh God, how can anyone name their son Lucifer? And I felt the Lord speak to my heart, which you know what I'm saying. Go over and share the gospel with them. And I thought, no, and I'll just stay here and pray. And I had to go over there and share the gospel. And I grabbed the book, the first book that I wrote, My Friends Are Dying, walked up their driveway, and a guy came out, pointed at me, said Ray Comfort, I just finished reading your book, My Friends are Dying. And it was Lucifer's dad. And so they invited me in, gave me food, and I was able to witness to them. And that's um was a lesson to me not to pray without uh having legs to my prayers. Amen.

SPEAKER_05 14:16

Yeah, the school book evangelism book will teach you how to do that. And don't forget the Living Waters mug, the Evidence Study Bible, Living Waters TV, all at LivingWaters.com.

SPEAKER_06 14:27

I just imagine for Halloween, Lucifer dresses up as a snake, knocks on your door. Serpent, man.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

Dresses up like an angel, the opposite.

SPEAKER_05 14:34

And friends, Angel Light to subscribe to the podcast YouTube channel. Tens of thousands of subscribers.

SPEAKER_06 14:41

You'll see and hear us. Speaking of, uh I did a sermon on revelation for Advent and the big red dragon. And I we I had this great idea. We have like outside of our house, we have the nativity scene for Christmas. I'm like, babe, we should get a huge red blow-up dragon to put behind the nativity scene. Can you imagine the conversation starter that would be for the neighbors? Be like, whoa, what is that? That's revelation. Wouldn't that be cool? What are you just talking about for? You're doing it? Are you gonna do it? Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Oh, give us give us photos.

SPEAKER_05 15:11

Yeah, I will.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

Of all the neighbors that shoot shoot it up.

SPEAKER_05 15:15

All right, France. Today we're talking about why so many Christians feel spiritually numb.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Numb? I thought it said dumb.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

So what's what's the the the uh thing underneath it, the hidden apathy and dullness taking over the modern church?

SPEAKER_05 16:07

Yeah, yeah, that's a note for us, right? To know what we're talking about. Hey, it's we're talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Well, that's where I'm going with this, and I want a justification for it.

SPEAKER_05 16:16

Yeah, go, Ray. You got the floor.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Well, apathy is the is is a camouflaged enemy, and we should shoot it down, it'll kill us. And uh it that and we've got to kill it before it kills us. And I uh one portion of scripture that thrills me like 10,000 other portions of scripture is where Jesus cleared the temple. The zeal of his house ate him up. What does that mean? It means that he was zealous to a point of violence and is seeking for the Father's glory. And if you can get that zeal, which is the opposite of apathy, um, you'll do things that you wouldn't wouldn't think possible in your life if you can get that zeal. Just the other day I did something that could have got me killed, but I I don't know. No, it can't really, yes. I was on my bike, and this elder lady was standing on a street corner, and she's a lady I see almost every day, and I've witnessed her and given her books, and she's very, very sweet, but I watch her day by day become more and more frail. She carries a stick, and I think she's gonna die soon. My heart breaks for her, and I often stop and talk to her, and she even takes in and out cards, which is great. Anyway, this day I came up and there was a car that had four exhaust, they're called twins, but it was double twins, and it was so loud it was vibrating my false teeth. Now I don't have false teeth, but seriously, it was a window shaker. There are loud cars, and this one was on steroids to a point where it would set off car alarms as it went past. And she was standing on the corner with that car right by her, 20, 30 feet away, and she was terrified by it. Because the sound is so and so I stopped and I turned to the guy that was just getting out of the car. I said, That noise is terrifying this lady. And he got out and he had big tattoos, big muscles, and he turned to me and said, I'm sorry. And I turned to the lady and I says, Well, I didn't get shot. Oh wow But that's if you if you let zeal consume you, because I was just so concerned for that woman. And if we can be like that about the Father's glory, we'll do things that we'll push out of fear, so won't think of the future. And one one criticism of me is I don't think of consequences. But sometimes that's good when when you're zealous for God. Jesus didn't think of I Jesus didn't think of consequences. When he cleared the temple, he knew what the consequences would be. They wanted his death. Straight after that, they said they conspired to kill him, but he didn't care because the zeal of God's house had eaten him up.

SPEAKER_05 18:40

I I would call that courage, right? I mean, you know the consequences, but you still you still do it because you know that it's right. Yeah. Um, you know, we we just uh we just uh everyone's been talking about obviously that the crazy shooting that happened in uh Australia. Uh Bondi, you guys say Bondi or Bondi, right? It's Bondi. Bondai Beach. Um we were there, guys. Bondai.

SPEAKER_06 19:02

I know.

SPEAKER_05 19:03

We were there in that in that very area, you know, uh along that before. No, no, no. We were at Bondai. Yeah, when we did our our tour for season 10. We witnessed there. We did open air evangelism there. It was just right, yeah, right in that area.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

So this has changed Australia forever. Oh. Because it's a safe so-called country. Yeah, it's not like America that has and I often get people from down under in Australia say to me, America's got too many guns, that's your problem. Do something about it. And so, what are you supposed to do about it? You know, the bad guy's got the guns. You gotta be able to protect yourself in Australia.

SPEAKER_05 19:34

In a country where where guns are banned, yeah, you know, I mean, uh banned probably for the public. I I think this guy had maybe it was a hunting, they were hunting guns or something. I don't know. But um it was two of them. Yeah, two of them father-son, right? Yeah, but the the the courage of that shop owner that tackled the shooter, that's courage. You know, that's looking and caring and saying, if this guy isn't stopped, more people are gonna die. Yeah, and so he risked his own life and he ended up getting shot. I think. Oh, I think it'd already be.

SPEAKER_06 20:04

No, he did. I thought he took the gun away from him.

SPEAKER_05 20:06

He did, but the other the his the guy's son was up on the on the Oh, I didn't realize and he got shot. I heard.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

I thought he'd been shot before he tackled him, and he just ignored the wounds in his leg and just went for the gun. There's video of him tackling the guy here. Isn't it wonderful? It's just it's just wonderful to see him doing that. See courage and action.

SPEAKER_05 20:23

So that's courage. So sorry, you said apathy. Um, how do you define apathy?

Forgetfulness And Living With Eternity In View

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Well, the the etymology comes from the word ap pathetic. Does it really? Yeah, yeah. It actually, well, I just I just say apathy is pathetic. Um I have the etymology somewhere, it's completely gone, but it is from the Latin word infection ap. Yeah, yeah, and pathy. It means to be totally unconcerned about something. Yeah. Couldn't care less about something.

SPEAKER_05 20:53

Mark, doesn't that terrify you, the thought of getting to a place where we really just don't care?

SPEAKER_00 21:00

And how do where where does that come from? Right?

SPEAKER_01 21:01

I mean it's etymology. A path. A pathos. Poor Mark. A-P-A-T-H-E-S without emotion or passion. That's the etymology.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

A maybe uh it's a slow drift. You know, we we we we talk about slow drifting. No, nobody somebody comes knocking on your door and it's a woman not fully clothed, you're not answering the door. Right? It doesn't start like that. It doesn't work like that. You know, if somebody offers you cocaine, you've never done drugs, you're never gonna take cocaine. Nobody, it doesn't start like that, right? There's always this um this progression uh downward of just avoiding certain things, avoiding certain people, unfortunately and sadly. Um that slow drift is what we need to really uh be careful with. Where hey, I'm gonna skip a family devo. I'll I'm gonna skip going to church on Sunday because my team is playing and they're on television this week. I'm gonna skip praying before a podcast. I'm gonna slip Yeah, we forgot.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

How many podcasts have we done?

SPEAKER_06 22:09

384. 382? 384. I think it's 382.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

So, what was the what was the dreaded podcast that we forgot to be on the case? 382. 382. We'll never forget that number. Ever.

SPEAKER_05 22:19

First time out that we forgot to pray, but God was gracious. Wow, shame on you guys. Sorry, continue, Mark.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

You know, so we think that that that fire it it once burned bright and then it just begins to flicker. And before you realize that flickering becomes obnoxious, right? And so you don't fan it, what happens? It goes out, and you'd much rather have it out than have it begin to flicker. You want that commotion, that noise of uh the spirit. And then we look at it like that the spirit begins to just be noisy and nosy, perhaps, even inside of our lives. You know, just give me a break, give give me a moment. And there's this slow drift, and before we realize and recognize, um we're apathetic. We're we're numb to conviction. Um, there's only there's only one F-word inside there. I I could go with that in that movie. I could, I could watch that doesn't this doesn't need vid angel or clear play. And then we begin to rationalize maybe two or three or whatever, and it just it's progressive. You must always be on your guard, always putting on the full armor of God, always be alert, always be aware of your situation, your circumstance, having those bouncing eyes as Steve Arderburn talks about. Bouncing eyes in the midst of our circumstance, always wanting to say, search me and try me, see if there be any wicked way in me, lead me in the way everlasting. Because if you don't, there is a danger attached to that. So rebellion isn't necessarily completely outward, it's there's just a drifting.

Shaking Off Fear And Taking Action

SPEAKER_05 23:55

Yeah, yeah. And I I like that you highlighted that, Mark. It's not always overt, it's not always this, you know, expression of like, I don't care, I don't, but that slow drift, little by little, and you just get to a place where you you you say, How did I get here? It's it's almost like this wonder, but small degrees.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

You resign, right? And you resign from the idea of I I've seen it in so many people's lives, right? We we don't want to major on the minors, but we still want to have conviction. Right? We talk, we we're quick to talk about these tertiaries, these secondary, non-essential issues, but there's still an essential element to these things, and we need to talk about these things agreeably. You know, we can disagree agreeably and cordially, but what happens when you start saying, you know what? Well, he has this view, I have that view, and there's this theological triage happening, and we don't know which what road to die on, we what hill to die on, and and and we need to be careful with that. It's okay to have an opinion, have an opinion, but when you begin to drift and you don't want to have an opinion for anything because you don't want to offend, the gospel is offensive. So have an opinion about certain things and be ready to discuss those tertiary issues. And I think that we begin to throw main essential issues into tertiary issues, secondary non-essential issues. It's good. Oscar, what are you gonna say?

SPEAKER_06 25:15

Um, I love it, Mark. You said something earlier that reminded me of something that I wanted to say and I forgot it, which is that you said this thing. Uh, that was me buying time. Uh no, what are you good, Oscar? Uh something of like, you know, when ac oh I know what it was. When accusations come, the search me and try me. And it I think it also applies to accusations. If someone making someone that you love, someone that you barely know, if anybody makes an accusation against you, there's this tendency to become defensive. Um, or there's this opportunity to say, man, what if 10% of it was true? And if 10% of it is true, then I want to repent. I want to grow and mature in wisdom and discernment. And so then have the search me and try me. Then have to, you know, if an accusation comes from someone who you barely know, turn to someone that knows you and say, Hey, is this true? Is this true? Search me and try me. Tell me if this is true because I want to repent of it.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

You know, I have two of my kids who were butting heads over a subject this week. And the one who got approached, who got rebuked and corrected, was being uh just slightly offensive, uh offended to what was being said. Which one was and I said, so I stepped and I said, time out for just a moment. Listen, consider the source. And you don't necessarily have to consider the source. Truth is just truth. But is what your siblings sharing with you? Are you looking for an out? I'm gonna discount everything you're saying because this element is not true. Or are you willing to go, you know what? I think that there may be an element of truth to what is being said. Look for the element of truth to what is being said as opposed to looking for the out and trying to discount and discard everything else that that Sibyline is saying. Yeah. And it caused a pause in the midst of the conversation because and I said, look, I agree. This is how you act when this happens. Yeah. You need to consider the source. Yeah, but just pause. Overarching truth, go with it.

Gift Shop Jesus And True Discipleship

SPEAKER_06 27:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's such an opportunity for us. I think so often that the legalistic side of us, the inner lawyer comes out and we want to defend and protect whatever idol we're trying to defend and protect, whatever old habit we have. But if we are able to remember that we are on a journey to become more like Christ, and that accusations, whether true or false, conflict interactions, the ultimate goal of God is not to show you they're right and you're wrong or your right and they're wrong. The ultimate goal of God in those conflict situations is to make you more like Christ. If you have that mindset, then you have the unashamed approach of where's the 10%? Let me figure out the 10% so that I can grow and mature in wisdom, whether that's repentance from sin or growing in wisdom, both things ultimately grow you closer to be like Christ. But let me shift the gears a little bit here and also say, because we're talking about ultimately what we're talking about is what Revelation calls a lukewarmness. And lukewarmness is often misunderstood. We think, like when we hear it say, you know, it says you're neither hot nor cold, like certainly, certainly the scriptures aren't saying you need to be absolutely emotionally on fire or freezing cold, don't care. What that lukewarmness means is not being fervent. Or I'm sorry, it means this. It means ineffective. You are ineffective for what God means to do through you in this world because you have an apathy. And and as it pertains to the church that letter was written to, their ineffectiveness and their apathy came from comfort.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Oh, thanks a lot.

SPEAKER_06 29:09

From great comfort. You do, from self-sufficiency. And I would just say, like, I just finished a study through Revelations on my own personal time, and I was so convicted to just realize, like, you know, we're we are listened to all over the world. But let me just talk to the Americans in the digital room that we're talking to here, which is as Americans, we can fall into comfort. Like we are that comfortable city. If you have more than one pair of shoes, if you if your household has more than one car, you are in the top 1% of the world. And comfort will make you ineffective. It will grow your apathy for the gospel. When you are uncomfortable, when you are in deep need and deep pain, you your your your mission in life, your call, the Great Commission is so much more clear. And more importantly, your dependency on God is so much more obvious. And that's the scary thing is that comfort makes us feel self-sufficient. And when we forget our dependency on God, we grow apathetic to God's will.

Dependence On The Gospel, Not Noise

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Boy, that's really, really good. Because I was having similar thoughts. How can I bring this back to evangelism? And and uh and you did it. Um apathy is a numbness. What's the question? It's a numbness about what? It's a it's a numbness about the fate of the lost. This is what I think. Um it's a bedfellow of discouragement. When you get discouraged, you tend to become numb and apathetic about the Great Commission. And so what I've got to do as a Christian is saying no matter what life throws at me, um, the lost are still lost. Sinners are still going to hell. And so what we should be saying is, I have no rights as a Christian, I'm not my own. My commitment to the Great Commission is ironclad. I've set my face as a flint toward Jerusalem. I'm stubborn for the gospel. I I love that word flint because a flint is such a hard stone. If you hit it, you get sparks. And that's the attitude of mind, that's the attitude of mind that we should have to the Great Commission, to the last. Okay. Um so what is what does it look like? It apathy's camouflaged. I said that earlier, it's an enemy that comes camouflaged. What does it look like? It wakes up in the morning and thinks about itself. How can I make myself most happy today? It's self-centered, self-absorbed, and self-indulgent. But a life that's fueled by zeal for God's will is a life of self-denial. It wakes up in the morning and says, How can I serve God today? And from my understanding of scripture, to do that means to joyfully follow in the footsteps of Jesus, who said he was here to seek and save that which is lost. So nothing in this world matters for me. It's transient, it's chasing the wind, but most importantly, it's evil. You know, we said, Oh, life is vanity, this world's vain, but no, it's evil in God's eyes. Everything about it is like Lazarus after four days, it should stink in our nostrils because we want to do God's will. And so the Christian says with Jesus, let the dead bury the dead, we have something infinitely more important to do, and that's to seek and save that which is lost.

SPEAKER_05 32:24

Oh good. You know, I think one of the the main causes of apathy and numbness is forgetfulness. You know, you think about like one of the beautiful days we experience here in California, which is close to every day, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Take that Ken Ham too.

SPEAKER_05 32:41

Yeah, Ray and I are constantly harassing Ken Ham, who's like in a frozen tundra right now. But but you know, there are days where I'll I'll walk outside and I live in a very, very quiet neighborhood. It'll be like one of those clear blue sky days. You can't hear any noise of cars, traffic, the the weather is perfect, and there's a calmness. It's so hard at that moment to remember that the wrath of God is burning hot against evil, wicked sinners. I mean, that's not on my mind at that moment, right? So if I see my neighbor, hey Tom, how you doing? Hey, good. I'm not thinking if he doesn't know the Lord, like he is a breath away from sealing his fate to be consumed in the eternal lake of fire forever. And guys, look, I can't tell you how many times I've praised God that I wrote something down on a sticky note because it was it was massively important. I was about to walk out the door, whatever, and I didn't I was gonna take that thing with me or do that thing or whatever. And I'm like, oh, I'm so glad. It was a reminder. And I think what we need in our lives are constant reminders before our eyes because we know we're prone to wander and forget. The wrath of God is burning hot. Sinners are on their way to hell. There are believers that need encouragement who are broken right now and disheartened. When's the last time I picked up the phone and called that brother or sister, reached out to them? You know, there are there are people right now in convalescent homes rotting away with no family members witness uh visiting them or anyone sharing the gospel with them. There are people in prison right now that I could write to and reach. I mean, that's what I'm talking about, like being mindful of all that's happening when we're not aware that it's happening, but it's happening constantly.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

The apostles, the disciples, they had the same sort of problem, didn't they? When Jesus rebuked them and said, Do you not remember? You know, how I fed over here and I did this, I did that. Like, how is it that you are so quick to forget? If only they had post-it notes. If they had posted notes, they would have remembered the miracle from yesterday.

SPEAKER_05 34:43

Yes, posted papyrus. Oh papyrus posted notes. I'm sure someone had a business with this papyrus thinking. You're using camel like licking.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

But turning the watch around. What with sundials, turning the sundial around?

SPEAKER_05 34:57

But Ray, it was like with Peter and and Jesus, right? Like when Jesus was talking about going to the cross and Peter started rebuking him. Yeah. You're you're mind you're not mindful of the things of God, but of the things of man.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

Yeah, the subtlety of apathy is that my flesh embraces it. Yeah. It wants to embrace it. And I can see this in action when I go to a store or something, and I I've got tracks in my pocket, and that's exactly where Satan wants to keep them. So I deliberately put them on my hand because I walk past someone and say, Oh, that guy got away. I wasn't quick enough to get the tracks out of my pocket. That's my flesh, that's apathy. And so I put my tracks in my hands that I'm very quick to the draw. We watch Gunsmoke a lot. And um, you've got to be quick to the draw with tracks because the flesh will say, No, no, you you were you really wanted to do that, but you just didn't.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

How can do you go back and give somebody a track that you've walked by and you feel that conviction?

Practical Habits To Rekindle Fervor

SPEAKER_01 35:50

Yeah, I've done that a lot. Yeah, I see him do it all the time. I I go around in circles and go back to it yesterday back to a guy. Um He looks like a little chicken out there. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Acts 28. Paul was uh um collecting sticks for a fire, and out from the fire came a serpent. The fire sent him out there and fastened to his hand. And the Bible says he shook it off into the fire. And if you uh uh I want the God, if you want God's house to eat you up, if you want to be on fire for God, you can be sure you're gonna stir up Satan with that fire to come and put his teeth in your hand, that place of outreach to the lost. What you've got to do is shake it off into the fire. And that's what you gotta do continually, just shake off the apathy. I'm not gonna let it near me because it's an enemy. It's camouflaged.

SPEAKER_05 36:34

Yeah, and and look, consumed with reality, right? Uh it says in 2 Peter 2, he says, you know, these were not cut cunningly devised fables. We didn't follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. We were there when we heard the divine voice, right? This is my beloved son in whom I'm well pleased. So it's being consumed with the reality. Years ago, there was a sermon I used to preach where I would I would give examples of all of these zealous, passionate, godly saints and what they did for the sake of the gospel. One of them in particular, he was his body was covered with honey and he was put up in a in a tree to be killed by the stings of wasps, right? And and yet it was because he wasn't willing to recant the faith. He he he knew he knew what it would cost him, like we were talking about earlier, courage, but but he still wasn't willing to deny the Lord. And so I asked in the sermon, I would ask this question by the way that you live, not by what you say, by the way that you live, is it evident that God is as real to you as the flesh on your very bones? He hears every word you utter, sees every action you execute, and there's coming a day when you're gonna stand before him and give account for every moment of your life while being aware of his grace and that you're saved by it, but yet really recognizing the reality of that accountability by the way that you live. Is it evident that you believe that? And that's a conviction to me because there are times when when I can say, no, I'm not, I'm not conscious of that. It's not evident right now. And we need to figure out how do we how do we get there?

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Yeah, that sorry, Oscar, you took a breath before I did it. No, you go go with your breath. It's gone. Bring it out.

SPEAKER_05 38:18

Take my breath away.

SPEAKER_06 38:22

Top gun? What if I do take my breath? Ray, you're gonna say something wise, hopefully.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

Yeah, it sounds like a crest advertisement. Oh, that'd be so good. Yeah, I'll take your breath away with one brush of it. Um, yeah, how do we practically do what we're talking about? How can you don't want to go to local church with a whip and get rid of them money changes? You can do that. But how do you not everybody can get a bike, electric bike, put a dog on with sunglasses at local college. It's not normal. But what you can do is continually carry tracks with you on your purse or whatever in your hand. And when you go to the supermarket, well, when you go to Amazon to order, that kills evangelism, doesn't it? Um, but but yeah, just carry tracks with you, especially your lunch hour. Your lunch hour, don't call it a lunch hour, it's an evangelism hour where you stuff down some food and then you've got another 50 minutes to see you can say that which is lost. So you go out deliberately to ignore your fears, say to a stranger, how you doing. Coming back from the Christmas party the other night, Sue and I stepped into the elevator, nine floors, fast elevator. I thought I've got to be quick with this guy. He's uh wearing a cowboy hat, he's about six foot two, and his girlfriend was dressed inappropriately for some sort of, I don't know what it was, I think the hot pants. So I looked her in the eyes. I had Sue next to me, and and I looked at him and just said, How are you doing? Well, slightly deeper than what I normally speak. And he said, Good, how are you? And that's all I needed to know. He wasn't nasty, he was friendly, and I said, Yeah, and I gave him a tract and a and an out card. And I'm so glad I did. I only had like eight seconds to do it out of the elevator, but that was tapping into eternity, and it's a mindset. I'm not gonna listen to my fears, I'm just gonna greet someone, and when they talk back to me, there's an opening for me.

Urgency, Obedience, And Hearing God

SPEAKER_06 40:02

Wow, that's good. I think another big problem too, and I talked about this at a recent podcast, but another big problem too is that we have a gift shop perspective of Christianity, and that starts with the sentimentalization of Jesus. What I mean by gift shop Christianity, I said this before, like, imagine you take somebody, someone you love and care about, to a national park for the very first time. But before you get into the park, you know, you stop at the gift shop and they walk into the gift shop and they see the keychains, they see the mugs, they see the shirt, and they're like, wow, this place is amazing. They buy a shirt and they're like, okay, ready to go home. You'd be like, What? Like, no, you haven't even seen the national park yet. Like, you gotta walk past the national park or past the gift shop into the national park to experience the real thing. And I think often we sentimentalize Jesus to become a gift shop version of who he is. He is he is sweet little baby Jesus. He is simply the Prince of Peace without also being Lord of Lords and King of Kings. We ignore the parts of scripture that says he rules with an iron rod, that his armies come with zeal. And I mean, if you think about that, think about the reality that like when Jesus calls you to follow him, Jesus is not some YouTuber that's like, I hope you'll like and subscribe. Like, he's not trying to build a following, he's not asking you to leave a comment to tell you what he thinks. He is the Lord of Lords and he is the King of Kings, and he demands that you submit to his rule and his reign. That is a non-sential, non-gift shop Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

I love that.

SPEAKER_05 41:37

That's good. And and he's the Jesus that we are told in Hebrews 11 that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. A rewarder. And I think when we understand what that reward is, it will transform us. And and and I believe a big part of that reward is himself, more of him, you know, which which every true Christian yearns and longs for. But there has to be that seeking, and then we have to recognize what are the barriers that keep me from seeking him? What are the things that are holding me back from going to the fountain of living waters, to the one who is all all in all the the very source of everything that I need, you know? Um, so there has to be this radical awakening, guys. It happens to us where first I think it starts with knowledge, right? You go to 2 Peter 1 and he's talking there about uh how we receive access to all these spiritual riches through the knowledge of him. Begins with the knowledge of him, you access those things, and it says, if these things are yours and abound, you'll be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So you start with the understanding that every believer has at bare minimum. I need God and I need his word. Then despite what you feel, you pursue God and his word. And as you do that and you stay consistent in that, and you're you're bathed in what? What is the width, length, depth, and height to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. You you you cannot at that point help but being a zealous person because you're you're at that place where you're gonna receive what you need to impassion you to do that.

SPEAKER_01 43:29

You say receiving a need to impassion you're thinking of Lot's wife, where Jesus said, remember Lot's wife, and she has turned into a pillar of salt to remind us the the the properties of salt, and one of them is thirst. I mean that seems to be it brings out taste, but thirst, you just put some salt in your mouth, you're just gonna want to thirst. And if you can get salt in your heart, it's gonna make you thirst after God and seek him with all your heart. You can lead a horse to Yeah, you can need a horse. But you can't force him to drink. Yes, you can't force him to drink. But you can't salt his oats. Someone rebuked me for that the other day. Say, stop saying that. Why I don't know. There's all sorts of people that just say shut up on the internet. So I think you write.

Walk In The Light And Holy Desire

SPEAKER_05 44:12

Yeah. Um, yeah, it it's that it's that determination, you know, to to be where he is, Mark, right? Like be where you're going to be recharged. You know, you got you've got these uh these AI robots now that the the big Ray, Ray's been an AI robot this whole time.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

Years ago.

SPEAKER_05 44:37

But they but they talk about how they recharge themselves, you know? They do. And yeah, they get to a certain point where they're low and they just go and they just hook themselves up, get charged in the night. I like the way you did that.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

Man in a box.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

You know, I think that it'd be wise to pause for a moment and think through that. We get addicted to Christian noise. And what I mean by that is if you can't drive without listening to a Christian podcast, great, listen to Christian podcasts, listen to Christian music, go to Christian conferences. I'm not saying don't do that. But when our default is that I have to fill that space with noise in order to concentrate that there's an issue, right? Because the shepherd doesn't want to speak up. He wants you to slow down, settle down the noise inside your life, right? Relax for just a moment. And we have failed to recognize what it's like to rely upon the Spirit of God. And now we're relying more upon cute quotes and anecdotal uh sermonettes, right? Sermon gems, these these 30-second to a minute and a half Instagram feeds. And that becomes now our um our feed in other people's lives. Uh Leonard Ravenhill, he said the Holy Spirit could be withdrawn from the church today, and 95% of what we do would go on, and no one would know the difference. Right? In 2 Timothy uh 3 5, it talks about the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. So the volume inside of our lives, it's kind of turned up, but the spiritual antennas are down. You know, we would that we have to uh run to commotion instead of running to Christ. You guys pause for a moment. Think about it. John leaned upon the breastplate of Jesus and he heard the heartbeat of deity.

unknown 46:39

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

You know what was it like? He just just kind of felt that comfortability and just being close and being near. And and John knew that Jesus knew John. Right? John knew that Jesus really knew John, and John was okay with that. That well, I mean, where am I gonna go? Where else am I gonna go? You alone hold the words to eternal life. And there's something about finding that comfortability in silence. There's a comfortability and just knowing that you know God knows me, and I don't need to run to commotion anymore. I can run to Christ.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

You know, the thing with that scripture after what you're saying, be still and know that I'm God. And we used to sing that a lot. Do you remember that song?

SPEAKER_03 47:18

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

It's beautiful. Um, so how do you do that? Well, secret prayer. That's get away from it. Everything the noise and the haste, and just get into secret prayer. And uh that's how to be still before the Lord.

SPEAKER_00 47:31

You know, a proper translation for that verse, be still, know that I'm God, is cease your striving and let me show you that I'm God. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

And it was said at the at the base of uh is it said at the base of Red Sea or not? I can't think.

Final Encouragements And Resources

SPEAKER_06 47:43

No, it was said, Stand still and see the salvation of God is what God is. Yeah. Uh I think another thing too is to go back to the idea of self-sufficiency, which is Luther's view on the gospel. And he pointed out that the gospel is not just the thing that keeps us. It's also I'm sorry. Luther pointed out that the gospel is not just the thing that saves us, it's also the thing that keeps us. And I think we have a misunderstanding of when we talk about total depravity. We think, okay, yeah, the gospel is for the lost, it's the door that gets me into Christianity. That's what saved me. And now I move on from the gospel into some form of discipleship, increased self-righteousness, whatever the case. But Luther's big argument was that the gospel, like I said before, is not just the thing that saves me, it's also the thing that keeps me. And actually, our dependence on the gospel never changes. A right view of the gospel will actually increase our understanding of our dependence on the gospel, which is you see that in Paul. When Paul talks about himself, he's not like, yeah, I was a sinner and now I'm saved and like I sin less now. He's like, no, like I was the worst and I am in greater need now. Like he just talked as though his sin didn't increase. Matter of fact, you can probably say from a man's perspective, his sin decreased. But his understanding of his dependence on the gospel increased. And I think when we redeem that perspective of the gospel, our tendency for self-sufficiency will get buffered back, and our dependence on God increases, which will prevent our apathy. Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_05 49:33

And and I think too, self-assessment is really important because we get into these ruts and we get on autopilot, you know, and so I like boiling things down to their bare minimum, right? So it begins with knowledge. Knowledge, like I mentioned earlier, who God is and what is right and what's important and what's happening to the loss. It's remembering. Okay, if we have a problem remembering, then we need to ask ourselves what are the mechanisms I'm going to put into place that are is gonna help me remember. Just like I said, sticky notes, or as an example, like we do that in practical things in life, right? You can't get up early, so set five, six, seven alarms, whatever. Like you gotta do stuff that's gonna help you, you know. And and so as as you begin to do that, you might start realizing, okay, well, that's the thing. So it's about remembering. So what's gonna help me remember? Well, when I'm in God's word, when I'm in God's presence, that's keeping me mindful of the spiritual and what's important. But okay, let's say I have that routine and I'm and I'm a consistent or a disciplined kind of person, and I can do those things. But then I start realizing my time in prayer is apathetic. So this is where we recalibrate and we say, okay, I need to read some books on prayer. I need to listen to some sermons that are gonna stir me up. I need to get accountability from brothers that are gonna hit me up. Are you being passionate in prayer, not just praying? The word, okay. Well, I need to be reminded. So I'm gonna listen to some sermons on how the word is living and active, sharper than each sword. I'm gonna read books on the power of the word, you know? I'm gonna fellowship over it. So that's what I'm talking about. Like we know the things that cause us to drift, to get numb, to not have that passion. So put the things in place that will help you to get activated.

SPEAKER_01 51:11

And that's realizing your vulnerability. Yeah. When you realize your vulnerability to forget, that's when you make yourself remember with a post-it note. Yeah. So it's seeing your weaknesses to make yourself strong.

SPEAKER_05 51:21

Amen. Ray, you're you're always you're always so good at that. I mean, over the years I've heard you say again again, someone will mention something. Did you write that down?

SPEAKER_01 51:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:29

Did you write that down?

SPEAKER_00 51:30

How many times have we heard that?

SPEAKER_01 51:31

Ah, well, I said it to Tony earlier on because it shows when you say to someone, when you guys often say, I say, Would you do such just I said I'll just write that down? I think he respects what I'm asking him to do. And he's putting, he's making sure it's important to write that down. That is so good.

SPEAKER_05 51:45

That's really good, Mark. I'm writing it down right now, right? Yeah, good. No, it's so I mean I get nervous. Anytime I tell someone, hey, can you do that? Yeah, yeah, I'll do it. And I want someone, hey, can you just make a note, please?

SPEAKER_06 51:54

Put a counter reminder because what about like when a when someone like is taking your order at a restaurant and they don't write it?

SPEAKER_05 52:03

You guys know my pet peeve with that.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

Just what you have as a marker and say, I'd like to write what I want on your forehead.

SPEAKER_05 52:09

Well, they think they're being impressive and they're not. They're making me.

SPEAKER_00 52:12

Do you guys think the more we we kind of put off the obedience, uh, the quieter perhaps his voice becomes? Right. And I think that an example of that would be would be when I'm on social media and I come across a really good workout post, right? For arms, for shoulders, whatever it is. I I have endless folders that I that I have never gotten to since the uh the beginning, the genesis of Instagram. I think I have folders filled with reels and posts. I go, that's so good. I gotta remember to do it. But I've never, except for some a pro-life folder, I've never gone back and looked at you know, workout things and things of that nature. In Hebrews 3.15, it gives a sharp warning and says, Today, if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts. And I notice the timeline that it's it's not tomorrow, it's not the next day, right? Today's the day of salvation. Today's the day to prepare for that last day. You know, we're not granted tomorrow. I shared with my dad today that, you know, if you live each day, as if it's your last Wednesday, you're gonna be right. And uh I invited him out for Christmas. And his response was, you know, I'm I'm preparing uh for my death. That's what he told. That was his response. I don't know I'm gonna die, and I want to make sure everything is in order. That's why I can't come out for Christmas. I said, Dad, come out for Christmas. You're you're coming out for the holidays, you know. And but today, there's there's no greater time, there's no greater opportunity to heed God's voice right now.

SPEAKER_02 53:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:37

Right now. Uh James 122. Go ahead, Ray. You want to say something? My favorite word is now. Your favorite word is now.

SPEAKER_05 53:42

Get it done right now, do it right now.

SPEAKER_00 53:44

Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourself.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

Your pauses are incredible.

SPEAKER_00 53:57

Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not do the things that I say? Mark, I love what you're saying about I wasn't done.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

Dramatic pause.

SPEAKER_05 54:08

I love what you're saying about doing things now. You know, there are certain people who I've it's just happened to me a lot a lot over the course of my life, but I'll ask them, hey, can you pray for me for this thing? Hey, let's pray right now. Yeah. You know, they'll do that. And and you know, I thought about that. Like, it's almost like saying to someone, um, you know, you're you're you know, you've been lost in a desert, you haven't had a drop of water in days, and you come across someone, you go, Oh man, give me some water later. And they've got like a big jug with them. What are you talking about? Give right now, you know. So I love that. But that that you know, that whole thing of like, you know, being faithful and then recognizing that God is listening. Yeah, of course, we can pray for people later, put them on a prayer list, but I love that urgency.

SPEAKER_01 54:48

Yeah, you know, you don't want to forget.

SPEAKER_06 54:50

Yeah. Yeah, I I like what you said, Mark. I would say uh when when it seems like his voice is quiet, um the the voice of the Lord actually booms. Maybe you've just made it a noisy room. You know, like when I remember recently we were at an event and my wife was like, We, you know, we're gonna need to leave at this particular time. And so I was attentive to her. I was just like, let me know when you're ready. And I kept my eyes on her. And across the room, when she was ready to go, she gave me a look and I'm like, okay, time to go. I was ready to serve my wife because I knew that she had asked that of me in that same way. In our lives, are we attentive to God's calling? No matter what room we are in, no matter what situation are we in, are we listening for the Lord's calling on our lives? Or are we so busy and so distracted that we cannot hear his booming voice?

SPEAKER_05 55:44

Or we don't want to hear it because we have our own agenda. Yeah. That terrifies me.

SPEAKER_06 55:49

That actually reminds me, I was just listening to a sermon by uh GK Beale, um, and he used this analogy. He said, he said it's a true story that one day somebody, this guy got a microscope. It was like when the microf the scientist got a microscope when they first invented them. They came out, he got one of the first ones, and he was putting everything under this microscope. And one day he decided to put his food under the microscope, and he saw all these microorganisms.

SPEAKER_01 56:12

You tried milk?

SPEAKER_06 56:13

Uh no.

SPEAKER_01 56:14

It's disgusting.

SPEAKER_06 56:15

He he so he saw all these microorganisms crawling around on his food, and he, you know, he got so disgusted that he didn't want to eat anything anymore. And at that moment, he's like, I'm getting rid of the microscope. I can't do this. GK Bill goes, we do that with the Bible. Wow. That it puts our sin under a microscope and then we stop reading it. But we need to go to God's word or we grow in apathy to our sin.

SPEAKER_05 56:38

Yeah, you know, first John, if we walk in the light, as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of his son, Jesus, cleanses us from all sin. You know, the light reveals our sin that to draw us to him to lead us to repentance. And so it's it's difficult to see those things in us. And and I do honestly believe that there are many, they won't go to church, they won't read the word, they won't be in prayer, they won't fellowship because they know it's gonna be conviction. And so, you know, we we need to be careful of that. Uh, Romans 12, 11, not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord. Right. That's one of the most uh convicting verses, but an encouraging verses. Like, hey, I want to, I don't want to lag in diligence, I want to be a diligent person. I want to be fervent in spirit, not just, you know, okay, yeah, I've got some some passion, but fervent, and I want my aim and all these things to be serving the Lord.

SPEAKER_00 57:29

Yeah, you know. What's that text again?

SPEAKER_05 57:32

Uh Romans 12, 11. Yeah, you know, I love that. And and A. W. Tozer said the stiff and wooden quality about our religious lives is a result of our lack of holy desire. Holy desire. You know, each day getting closer to the Lord, each day getting closer to standing before the judgment seat of Christ.

SPEAKER_01 57:53

You think of how many people are wholly zealous for things that don't really matter, particularly sport or money and things like that. They're they're consumed with ambition to be the best at that, and yet it's all transient. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 58:06

Yeah, it's it's so true. And so, guys, um I I know I've been encouraged today and determined again to just sit back and take inventory. And and and again, as I'm taking that inventory, I'm doing it in in the shadow of the gospel and in the shadow of the cross and in the shadow of the grace of God, meaning it's right there next to me. I'm not doing it in this legalistic sort of, oh, I gotta earn God's favor. It's God, I love you. Time is short, eternity is coming. I I want to honor you, I want to please you, I want to touch people's lives and impact them. This isn't about like, okay, I'm cool, I'm saved, I know the Lord, okay, great, I'm saved by His. No, it's it's because I am, Lord, how can I how can I leave a mark in this world for your glory and uh fill up eternity? Amen. Amen. Amen. New Zealand. New Zealand and fire. Oh, that was something we did a long time ago. New Zealand and fire. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, friends, there you have it. And to help you stay passionate and not become apathetic and numb. The school of biblical evangelism 101 lessons. Don't forget it. Online and uh book form. Don't forget to like, subscribe, share. Please share. And don't forget podcasts. Podcast at LivingWaters.com. Thoughts, questions, suggestions, insults, and questions, because that's a good idea, Mark. We'll start asking them.

SPEAKER_03 59:30

I like that.

SPEAKER_05 59:30

Thank you for joining us, friends. We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast where Mark Spence has a headache because of what I just did, where we have no idea what we're doing.