Ep. 384 - When a Church Becomes a Brand: The Danger of Platform Culture

When a church centers itself on a personality, it risks losing sight of the One it exists to proclaim. Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar examine the growing tendency for churches to become brands, where influence and personality can overshadow the faithful preaching of God’s Word. The guys explain that branding itself is not inherently wrong, but problems arise when a congregation centers on a charismatic figure instead of the Lord. Scripture calls pastors not to build platforms but to shepherd souls with humility, character, and accountability before God.

The conversation turns to how ministry can slowly shift into performance. The guys note that congregations sometimes crave entertainment, putting pressure on pastors to become performers rather than faithful expositors of Scripture. Historically, the pulpit was treated as a sacred space where God’s Word was opened and applied with reverence. When churches attempt to compete with entertainment culture, they risk replacing holiness with spectacle. The guys remind listeners that the true audience of worship is God Himself, not the crowd in the room. Faithful preaching requires courage to stay anchored in the text, addressing sin, righteousness, and judgment even when such messages are unpopular.

At the same time, the guys caution against swinging to the opposite extreme of rigid legalism. Creativity, craftsmanship, and thoughtful communication can serve the gospel when they keep Christ at the center. The real danger is when numbers, applause, and viral attention become the measure of success. That mindset can slowly cultivate an appetite for gimmicks instead of truth. Church gatherings are not meant to mirror theater but to proclaim the worthiness of God and the power of the gospel. Encouragingly, many younger believers are rediscovering the beauty of Scripture-centered worship where reverence and conviction are welcomed rather than avoided.

Finally, the guys remind listeners that the temptation to build ministries around human personalities is not new. Even the early church faced warnings against elevating leaders above Christ. Pastors must resist the lure of approval and remember they are servants of the Lord. Faithful preaching gives people what they need rather than what they want, and every sermon should be offered as an act of worship to God. When conviction comes, both leaders and congregations must respond with humility and repentance. The church exists to proclaim Christ and the gospel, refusing to trade eternal truth for temporary applause.

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Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro

Transcript

astors As Performers Vs Shepherds

SPEAKER_00 0:00

We have pastors that are turning into performers, and you have congregations that are turning into audiences, and you have these pastors, these performers, uh, behind the pulpit that are more interested in likes and follows, and what I'm giving is going to be a good clip. First Thessalonians 2 4. We speak not to please men, but to please God who tests our hearts. So we are not speaking to an audience, we're speaking to a congregation. People that have real issues and they want real answers to what they're going through. Stick to the text. Stick to the text, and you're gonna be just fine.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda, you come a waltzing Matilda with me. Ray, I expected you to sing along.

SPEAKER_04 0:50

No, no, that was off that me was in the wrong key. That's better.

SPEAKER_03 0:55

It was lower, it's supposed to be lower. Ray, you don't even know where that song comes from.

SPEAKER_04 0:58

Australia.

SPEAKER_03 0:59

Ah, you do know. Does it uh cause anger to arise in your heart?

SPEAKER_04 1:04

Not at all. I love Australians. Yeah. I love Ken Ham. I love kangaroos. I love Australia. It's a wonderful place.

SPEAKER_03 1:11

Well, I used to love Ken Ham until I spent 28 days with him.

SPEAKER_04 1:16

Is it that that was your job experience? Oh Lord.

SPEAKER_03 1:21

Deliver me 28 days.

SPEAKER_04 1:23

I can't believe you win for 28 days.

SPEAKER_03 1:27

I know me either. And look, uh, you guys know I'm I'm a crazy psychopathic extremist, but Ray, Ray Comfort, I can am. Oh no. You just sinned. Oh boy, sorry, Ray. This guy's getting up like we're supposed to walk 5 a.m. every morning. And he's worse than me with time because it's 4 45. And they're calling. Where are you? Five o'clock. What are you talking about? It's 5 a.m. So why so early? It's just because he can't sleep. Yeah, he's just yeah, he's a weird guy. Yeah. So yeah, we did our 5 a.m. walks. Uh man, Australia, you guys. See, I've been brainwashed all these years being married to Rachel and and being related to Ray. Australians are convicts. They're all convicts. Yeah, you're right. He does, he does remind us of that. But they are the nicest people on the planet. Very warm. I mean, seriously, I used to think the Turks were the nicest. They are pretty nice for those of you friends listening in Turkey. Oh boy. So nice. So nice. Myself in all. But seriously, I mean I was delighted by how cool the Australians were too friendly. Turks were close second. Yeah, very close. But where there's a fly up, what is that? And the light thing. It's got to be fly. It's got to do something. It's normal actually.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Flies are normal.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

But yeah, I mean, you walk into a gas station over there.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

Hey, get on you, Mike. Good morning. How are you?

SPEAKER_03 2:47

I'm just you know here at gas stations, you walk in like teenagers usually, you know, don't even want to look at you. So um, but what a what an epic trip.

SPEAKER_04 2:56

Did you see that guy on on YouTube where um someone tried to carjack his car and he poured gasoline on them? He just turned the nozzle. He just turned the nozzle on went, shh, and it came out about five feet and they ran because they got soaked with gasoline. So would you like a cigarette before you leave?

SPEAKER_03 3:11

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_04 3:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:13

That's insane. Yeah. So um what brought that to mind, right? Oh, yeah. You're talking about gas stations. That's such a squirrel moment.

SPEAKER_04 3:19

I'm talking about Australia. You were talking about flies for Australia. Oh, that is in keeping. Yeah. Flies in Australia, the Australian wave is. You know what?

SPEAKER_03 3:27

I hardly saw any. That's what was so nice to me.

SPEAKER_04 3:29

Your ignorance came up when I said tell Canham to take you to Alice Springs. And you said, Really, is that nice? That is the heart of Australia. There's nothing there. It's like 180 degrees on a cool day. It's just straight desert. Yeah. Yeah. They had something called uh the Flying Doctor. They didn't even have a doctor there. He had to fly in because he didn't want to be there.

SPEAKER_03 3:50

Insane. Alice Springs. You guys remember Australia? Was it two years ago we were there? Melbourne. For the filming? Two years. It's been about two. I loved it. Melbourne is like the mecca of good coffee. It is. Although the coffee I had there wasn't good. Everywhere else it was. Are you pleased? Are you pleased to be back? At it at the airport, though, maybe that's why. You're pleased to be back. Oh, so good to be back. Did you miss Rachel? Oh, yeah. That was the only downside. Rachel wasn't with me. Otherwise, um, it was an amazing trip. So we did Melbourne, uh Sydney, Gold uh the Sunshine Coast, Brisbane and Brisbane. And man, it was, you know, the the joy for me was the people that came up who love the ministry, follow the ministry, listen to the podcast. Um, you know, hello friends. I can't count how many times I heard that.

SPEAKER_04 4:36

How did an Australian say that? Hello, Fran. Ally Frank.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

Would you do it again? Would you do it right now? Ask me in like a year, man. I can. He said he doesn't mind doing it again. You know what? I would if Rachel goes with me. I don't think I'd repeat it without. Was that the longest you've been away from home? The longest? 23? 28. 28. 28, four weeks. Because PR was 21 for me, 20 for you guys. Yeah, that's right. That was close. But yeah, this was a long time. That's crazy. It was a big deal. But man, it was it was epic. It was

ustralia Stories And Helicopter Snowboarding

SPEAKER_03 5:07

great. Speaking of epic, Mr. Helicopter Oscar snow skier made.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

I want to go snowboarding. Where are you going? Well, I don't know. I need a helicopter to take me there.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

So, Oscar, you were seriously dropped off by helicopter daily, as you guys want to like the.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

So we it's bald face lodge. It's like this It's a what? Baldface Lodge, B-A-L-D. Okay. Baldface Live. Uh no, no. It's this world-famous, like renowned mountain that uh they've hosted major events at. And so to get there, you fly into Spokane, Washington, you drive for about three hours into Canada, and then where the road ends, you get in a helicopter and you fly up to the mountain, and there's a little lodge there. And then so every day for four days, they put us in cats, which are basically tanks on snow, and they they drive us, so they tank us up the mountain, we'd get dropped off, and we ride down the mountain.

SPEAKER_04 5:56

So what's it breaking leg up on the mountain? That happened last year or something. It did happen last year.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Yeah, last year one of our guys uh ran into a tree and bent his his leg was a wrapped up. So funny, man.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

I didn't mean to laugh. It actually just came out. Yeah, I see.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

And so we had to we had to like get him to a certain area where a helicopter can come grab him and take him off to the hospital. But this year no one got hurt, at least in our party. So it was amazing. Uh, I'll shout out to my buddy Rob, who um is blessed to allow me to grab one of his seats because it's reserved. Like you can't just go, you have to you own your seat, and uh you I wouldn't be able to go if it wasn't for him. So he loves the podcast. So thanks, Rob. So was it a helicopter just flying in to the place? Flies in, drops us off at our lodge, which is just a lodge, like propane powered, you know, all that stuff, and uh leaves, and then the cats, which are tanks, right that seat 12, they pick us up every morning and drive us up the mountain and we go.

SPEAKER_03 6:57

So that's really that's your ski lift, is that that's your lift, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

And every right, every run, there's there's no tracks, there's no nothing made by man in the sight of your eyes. It's all made by God. It's all made by God. It is beautiful. It's wonderful. The powder, the snow. I mean, like, I ate it hard off a cliff one time and it was just like falling to sleep.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Were you wearing one of those inflatable things?

SPEAKER_01 7:19

No, but I did have so the first day for about a few hours, we do avalanche training, um, which we learn how to probe, dig people out.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

That's like service words. Let's do some shot training. So casually, avalanche range.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Yeah, and actually the avalanche risk was really high. There was so last year I went, there was only one area where we avoided because we did we did some the guy, our guy digs a trench, basically measures the snow and says this is not safe. That happened this year, I think three different times.

SPEAKER_04 7:50

It's not fear, short guys go first.

SPEAKER_03 7:54

Well, that's crazy, man. I've seen videos on avalanches and joke.

SPEAKER_04 7:58

But seven seven people just died, didn't they? Yeah. An avalanche. Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Would you go again? I hope I get too, man. It'd be such a blessing. It's it's incredible. I came up with this phrase while I was up there, and tell me I'm wrong, but and let me explain why I say this phrase. I think, especially for men, we need to pick a hobby that can kill us and live.

SPEAKER_04 8:19

Oh, open air preaching. Yes, truly.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

I think we I think in some way God made us not for unnecessary kind of danger, but to like for adventure. Oh, yes. You know, and and I think when we sedate ourselves away from risk, we lose a sense of who God made us to be. And so, yeah, open air preaching. There is a risk there.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Wait, so are you guys all snowboarding? Are there any sorts of things?

SPEAKER_03 8:46

There's a mix of snowboarders and skiers. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, welcome back, Austin. Glad you're alive.

SPEAKER_04 8:52

A snowboarder is just a poor skier. We can only afford one. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

We only can afford half of the skis.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

All right, friends.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

Time for a cool classy comment.

istener Note From Australia

SPEAKER_03 9:02

This is, oh, believe it or not, what do you know? From Australia, from Arabella. Hey, Living Waters. My name is Arabella. It's the New Year's Eve morning. It's New Year's Eve morning. And I'm listening to the Virtue Signaling Podcast. I wanted to send a thank you to Ray Comfort, Emile, Easy Zwain, Mark S, and Oscar Navar, she is our full names. Wow. For all your biblical teaching and wisdom. I've been a Christian since I was 17, five years now, and have come back to this podcast regularly. I've grown in my walking on his fingers. I've grown in my walk with Christ and learned so much and had my life changed greatly through your teaching of the word and even just the little habit changes like slow living, putting away the phone, things as such. I love children's ministry and have been deeply praying about considering and considering missionary work to gospel poor places. Gospel poor places. I like that. I trust that God is sovereign over each day and his plans for our lives. So I'm resting in Christ with great joy and listening to teaching like yours continually. I truly desire to grow and appreciate examples like yours so much. May God bless, keep, and shine upon you 2026 and ahead for every day he would give us till we see his wonderful face, hands and feet with love with lots of love in Christ, Arabella. Ah, what a strange. She's deep. She's less deep. What she was saying.

reland Ranking And The Moth Joke

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Good stuff. Have you ever wondered so much if anybody in Ireland listens to our podcast?

SPEAKER_03 10:23

Oscar, stop. You're not supposed to read my notes. Number seven podcast, Christian podcast in Ireland. Isn't that cool? That is really cool. Hey, how are you? It's number seven. No, wait. That's what you went back to Australian.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

I was there too long.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

Oh man. You're gonna be like uh Ray with the Indian accent now. Everything's Australian.

SPEAKER_04 10:45

Did you see any snakes in Australia?

SPEAKER_03 10:47

Uh I didn't, but I heard they they've got them. They probably saw you. Poisonous snakes.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Speaking of snakes, did you guys hear about the moth and the podiatrist?

SPEAKER_04 10:56

Is that what and the podiatrist?

SPEAKER_01 10:57

The moth. There we go. And the podiatrist and the podiatrist. Tell me. Alright, I will. So one day this moth goes to a podiatrist and he's like, podiatrist, I need some help. And the podiatrist is like, what's going on, moth? And the moth is like, I really don't know. Like every day I wake up and it just feels like I'm living in groundhogs day. Like every day is the same over and over and over again. I go to work and my boss, I think he hates me. He accuses me of things. He blames me for everything. And I just I feel so meaningless at work. And then I go home and I struggle to sleep. And finally, when I fall asleep, I wake up and I think I'm like a spider. And the podiatrist is like, what? A spider? Moth, you've got wings. You're clearly not a spider. And Moth is like, no, no, no, you don't get it. I mean, like, I just feel like I'm I'm this spider being held over some eternal flame. Like I'm I'm worried about dying. I don't know what is going on, podiatrist. Like, help me. And the podiatrist, he takes like a big breath and he leans back and he's like, Man, moth, that's heavy. I don't think you need a podiatrist. I think you need a pastor. What'd you come to me for? And the moth goes, your light was on.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

Stupid, Oscar. Thank you for joining us. Francine. I'm thinking, is this a joke?

SPEAKER_04 12:14

Oh no, it took it took a second for that. You gotta think about that for a second. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We needed uh audiences. Oh boy, Oscar, you need help. Lame was on.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

All right, France. Anyway, back to reality number seven in Ireland. And thank you again.

SPEAKER_04 12:31

That reminded me of Psalm 119.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Oh my dude, is this like a sermon? All right, and now erratically revolutionary

illion Dollar Bills And Resources

SPEAKER_02 12:41

resources.

SPEAKER_03 12:41

This podcast is brought to you by a million-dollar bill. Gospel of John. Man, I miss doing that. It's been a while, guys.

SPEAKER_04 12:50

You could have done it by yourself in Australia.

SPEAKER_03 12:52

Gospel of John. Uh million dollar bill. Ray, I love this. I have to be honest. You know, there are certain certain things. There are certain certain things that do really appeal to us. You know, like I think of your um made in heaven book. I just I look at it and it's the same way with the Gospel of John's the million dollar. It's just, you want to pick it up.

SPEAKER_04 13:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:13

You know? Thinking when we went, man, guys, when we drove in the van and threw them out.

SPEAKER_04 13:16

Oh, we gave we gave away a million thanks to our donors. A million? A million of them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

So friends, these are attractive. Just little pocket size, almost pocket size. Good trip. Gospels of John.

SPEAKER_04 13:30

Remember what Lynn Copeland said when I told her what I wanted? You can't do that. There's never been a book without a title or anything on the back. She's never been wrong. There is now.

SPEAKER_03 13:39

Oh, so good. But no, friends, yeah, lots of these have gone out. Get them, give them to unbelievers. They have a gospel message inside, of course, along with uh the gospel itself. Uh and we have the vault, where you get a hundred in a box. And when they empty out, what do you do, Ray? Revolt. Revolt. That's right. Don't forget the Living Waters Mug, The Evan Study Bible, Living Waters TV, Living Waters Dot. Oh. All Living Waters TV. All that Living Waters Don't kill them.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

And don't forget the podcast YouTube channel. It's growing and growing and growing.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

All right, friends.

hen A Church Becomes A Brand

SPEAKER_03 14:15

Today, when a church becomes a brand, the danger of platform culture. Boy, you know, the word brand, I mean, I'm thinking back when I was a kid. You'd hear brand, and and the thing that would come to mind would just be like, you know, you're you're buying some kind of item, you know, that that brand or this brand. But it's really taken on, like, especially today in our modern culture, it's it's taken on a whole different persona, hasn't it, Oscar? Like when people think brand, your brain is going to like almost the definition of something. And you hear it used a lot today too in in like church culture. I heard I heard someone say, boy, this makes me tremble when I think about it. They're talking about their brand as a church, and the pastor who's a pastor that really kind of went in a in the wrong direction, said, I am the brand. Seriously, man, I just got like the chills at that thought, you know. Negative chills. Oh, yeah, like whoa. Yeah. Um, but but but I want to jump into that because it's not that brand is always negative. Uh-huh. There are positivities in relation to it and in connection to it. But but I want to talk about it at the outset here, as as it's gone astray, as we're talking about in terms of the title, When a Church Becomes a Brand, the dangers of platform culture.

SPEAKER_04 15:37

So Yeah, when I read that title, I thought to myself, this is an examination of the ecclesiastical consequences of metric obsessed ministerial output and the gradual evaporation of authentic spiritual vitality. That's what I thought.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

That was my thoughts exactly too. Yeah.

unknown 15:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:51

Because I was thinking in relation to the popularization of the Runuko Muhammad principles of conservation of friendship.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

I don't have the energy to do it all. Yeah, I think I, you know, in regards to the way brand is everywhere, to stop and define even what is a brand, I think it's important to recognize that the the idea of brand comes first and foremost from personality. It was actually organizations in like the 40s and 50s, specifically Coca-Cola was kind of the first, and Pan Pan Airways were the first two brands to get the, or I should say back then, they were the first two companies to recognize that they can build currency with their audience by associating their company with a personality, and there develops the idea of a brand within the context of an organization. And so when we say like this idea of building a church around a brand, it's sort of another way of saying building a church around a personality. Wow. And that's a problem. We we do. I think here's the thing that um having uh read uh Mike Cot one of Mike Cosper's books, because he does quite a bit of work on this, something that he points out is that the real issue isn't so much with the person who's saying I am the brand. Let's label that person a narcissistic leader, okay? Um, and let's just say that there are narcissistic leaders everywhere. The problem isn't so much that they exist, the problem is we the people empower them. See, they would have no power, they would never gain an audience, they would never run a church, they would never grow a social media following if we didn't empower them. And so he kind of turns this phenomenon back on us, the Christian consumer. And he points out that ultimately we gravitate towards strong men because they make us feel safe. They tell us where the tribal lines are and that we're in and that they're out. And he has this kind of phrase where he says, like, we mistake confidence for competence, charisma for character. We think certainly certainty means wisdom, and we think boldness is good, strong leadership. And those things aren't characteristic, or those things aren't categorically wrong, but those things don't necessarily mean character. And one of the most important aspects when God calls pastors and preachers is he calls them by their character, not by their ability to grow a following. But unfortunately, we love the strong man and we follow them like followers.

SPEAKER_03 18:22

You know, Oscar, as you said that, it reminded me of what we've talked about many times, and that is that you know, we often look at Hollywood and what it's producing and the filth that's out there, and we go, man, look at that, that's ridiculous. But how many times have we heard the statistics of how many Christians watch those movies? So it's like we're we're creating the the market for that, and so they're catering to it. So I that's such a good point, right? Because if the church rose up, if the people of God rose up and said, We're not having this, you're gonna see a change in that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:53

It really shows the maturity of congregations, though. To you see some prosperity preachers saying, Send a thousand now, and they send a thousand now, and you think, What are they doing? Don't support this guy.

SPEAKER_03 19:02

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 19:03

He wouldn't exist if you didn't give him oxygen.

SPEAKER_03 19:05

Yeah, I'm I'm trying to think of, you know, like play some of these clips uh in the days of the apostles. Right. You know, some dude just rises up. It's like a Simon the Sorcerer, you know, like it's about the it's about the money, it's about the popularity, it's about the power. And I wonder how often these preachers are thinking about the day of judgment. Well, if some of them are saved, and and those that are, but are are being lured toward some of these ways of the world, like that they're gonna stand before the judgment seat of Christ. You know, Mark, would you say we're shifting more toward performance rather

reaching For God Not Clips

SPEAKER_03 19:39

than ministry? And what's the difference? What's the difference between performance and ministry?

SPEAKER_00 19:44

I don't know if I can repeat that word for word. I mean, what what is the difference? And that was gonna be what one of the questions that I was gonna raise, right? Because we have pastors that are turning into performers, and you have congregations that are turning into audiences, and you have these pastors, these performers, uh, behind the pulpit that are more interested in likes and follows, and what I'm giving is going to be a good clip. First Thessalonians 2 4. We speak not to please men, but to please God who tests our hearts. So we are not speaking to an audience, we're speaking to a congregation, people that have real issues and they want real answers to what they're going through. Stick to the text. Stick to the text, and you're gonna be just fine.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Dude, it's huge. I see it all the time. And I think I so one, you're absolutely right. It's like the people who are now preaching to the algorithm because they want to get clipped and they want to get views, and you see it. Sermons are starting to be shaped accordingly, and it's really unfortunate. I see it all the time. But one of the other things that I see is these churches that originally called themselves biblical, who still call themselves biblical churches, that they focus on God's word. Now you see them bringing people on, and like their qualification, if we're really being on, like as a guest speaker, and their qualification, if we're really being honest, is that they have a hundred thousand followers on social media. They're not like, they're not, they're not seasoned biblical preachers, but really it's kind of a form of virtue signaling. Well, they they stand for this or they stand for that, and so we're gonna have them on, and I'm gonna give them the pulpit on Sunday, where historically the pulpit was a sacred place for people to preach God's word. And I think one of the big dangers, one of the big dangers is that ultimately what's happening for these pastors and these preachers is that they're forgetting that their primary audience is God. When we prepare a sermon, if we start thinking first and foremost, how can I get a laugh? How can I have the best memorable metaphor or story? How can I get clipped? If that is our primary way of preparing a sermon, man, we've already failed. Our sermons need to be. You just failed me. Our sermons first and foremost need to be a sacrifice on the altar of God. Does this honor the Lord and his word that I am preaching?

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Preaching from if a pastor's recognizing what you're saying right now, listening to this, and maybe this we get to this at the end. Maybe you have your scheduled for that easy. How does he drift back? Right? I mean, how does he come back? Drifting, right? Maybe not hard sin, not even recognizing this, maybe just kind of got caught up with some things. How does he come back to just the teaching of the word and not caring about the clips and the clicks and the follows and the likes and the shares? Right.

SPEAKER_03 23:03

Yeah, let's head there. Okay, let's let's build toward that. Ray, um you know, Oscar talked about reverence, you know, in the pulpit. You you talk about this. I'm trying to remember the exact quote, but there's some quote either you you share or that is original to you, or you talk about there's no more thunder in the pulpits or so. Do you know what I'm talking about?

SPEAKER_04 23:24

Yeah, yeah, there's no songs of thunder in the pulpits, there's no flashes of lightning or the thunderings of Sinai to put the fear of God in the hearts of the congregation. So they'll depart from sin. My thought is if we could put Tony Robbins in the pulpits of some of these churches, would it make a difference? Whether you say that's just what I hear every week, the same sort of positive. So you can be a winner. And I think uh a successful church or a faithful church, which do we want? A successful church has got a huge congregation and it's just filled with life and entertainment and it's wonderful, or do we want a faithful church that's preaching sin, righteousness, and judgment? And they're the things that these churches have in common: a failure to preach sin, righteousness, and judgment. And if I'm a shallow Christian, it's because I've never dived deep into God's word. I mean, that's what they've all got in common. They're shallow because they don't soak themselves in the word of God. You know, I often think of the scripture where Jesus said, Whoever hears my sayings and keeps them is like to a wise man who built his house on rock. And then when he says, But whoever hears my sayings and does not keep them are likened to a foolish man who built his house on sand, we miss what Jesus actually said there. Whoever hears my sayings and doesn't keep them. The world, that's not the world. They don't hear the sayings of Jesus and don't keep them. It's the church that does that. Week after week, go into all the world, preach the gospel to every creature. Without holiness, no man will see the Lord. Well, Jesus didn't say that, but in essence he did. But they hear what Jesus said, but they don't do what he said. They call him Lord and do not the things that he tells them. And that's a really scary territory to be in.

SPEAKER_03 25:03

You know, Ray, I that brought a thought to mind when I'm sharing the gospel sometimes with an unbeliever, um, you know, and and they respond in that way, like where they'll say, Oh, I know, I know, I know. And then I transfer that over to a believer, like when you're talking to a Christian, right? For the unbeliever, it's one thing, but for the believer, and they'll even finish verses for you. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, but they're using that almost like as a badge of honor, whereas Jesus is saying, You're setting yourself up for destruction. Because if you know my word and don't do it, the waves are coming, the storms are coming, and and you're in big trouble, you know. And and I I think, yeah, there there's that, there's that lack of reverence, and and what's happening in the church and this arena is yeah, we're we've become performers. You know, uh, I recently had a friend go to a church that I thought was a mega church because of the video clips. Because they they they hone in on the on the stage, big massive screen in the back, hyped up, you know. I mean, I seriously thought at least four or five thousand people. It's like a couple hundred people. But they but they what they're doing is they're trying to build an online church. Yeah. And again, like look, if the motive is I want we want to reach people, we want to impact them. But when the when the preaching is shallow, when when the focus is send in your money, you know, you've got a problem.

SPEAKER_04 26:26

Yeah, when when people go to church for entertainment, it's probably be more beneficial for them to stay at home.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 26:32

Because the church is not for entertainment. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

That's so good. And Jamie Smith, I've talked about this before in his book, We Are What We Love, he talks about how in the 80s and 90s that churches, these big box churches, started to feel like they needed to compete with the entertainment industry. They started to look at, they started to shape their church churches based off of malls, movie theaters, stadiums where you go watch football teams. And and uh Jamie Smith points out that like all of those forms of entertainment are their own kind of liturgy. They've actually created a form of worship. He uses like the stadium as an example. Like when you show up at the stadium, you dress accordingly. You share in your stories and testimonies. I grew up watching this team, my dad got me into this guy. Do you remember when Brett Favre did this or whatever? You sit down, you stand up all together when you're supposed to, you cheer, you stick your hands up for praise and worship. He says if you look at it like that, is it is a basically a worship ceremony. And he says that what the church has done is that it's tried to compete with these entertainment venues. And the reason why that is now failing is because as you pointed out, we could be out entertained. If I want a self-help, I let's be honest, the average pastor on a Sunday is not as good and dynamic as a communicator as Tony Evans. Or not Tony Evans, sorry, Tony Robbins, right? He's not as dynamic as a communicator as Tony Robbins. I can just stay home and get a dynamic self-help conversation that I can stream online. We don't go to church to be entertained. We go to church for the sacredness. And I think the issue is that we have substituted sacredness for showmanship. Alan Noble points out that, like, the church nowadays is centered on dynamic, fun sermon, a band, a stage, and the content. Where liturgical churches, uh, all throughout church history, the focus was on ritual, repetition, embodied practices, and participation. In other words, the church was always known to be a body of people proclaiming and practicing the gospel. We've taken that and we've substituted it for entertainment. Can I play devil's advocate?

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Can I give you angels advocate? Can I push back? Yeah. Right. And this is something I just want

an Church Be Entertaining

SPEAKER_00 28:57

us to consider, I want us to think through. We we go to church to receive the word of God to get answers as we're going through to get clarity as we open up the word of God. We we go to worship the King of Kings. But why? Why can't we go to church and be entertained? Why are you telling me that I need to wait until I leave here to go to the movies, to watch that G-rated movie or whatever? Why is it that I have to wait to be entertained outside? Is entertainment wrong? Is it sinful? Is it evil? Right? Because we all are entertained. Uh, unless we're saying that the pulpit itself is just a place of entertainment, like dancing bears, right, with hula hoops, right? Go on. Then we begin to think, well, no, that's wrong. And we should, but but I'm trying to wrap my brain around this. And I love this verse in John 21:17. Jesus tells Peter, build a brand. What no, he didn't say. He said, feed my sheep. So I get it. But if you are feeding the sheep, yeah. Define well, if you are properly expo expositing and exegeting the text, what would be wrong with entertainment at the same time with video clips from different movies that might be clean and wholesome to drive home a point? And final thing, and I'll throw it in this way is I remember Francis Chan, and I'm just thinking out loud here, guys, spitballing. Francis Chan received a a lot of flack. Now, where he's at right now is mind-boggling to me, but a lot of flack where he brought a rope onto the into the pulpit, and he was trying to explain how long eternity is, and you got this real long white rope, and then he had just a little red part on the end. And he said, This is what your life is, and then, but this is how long eternity is. And then he received a lot of flack as to why are you bringing props into the pulpit? Just preach the word. Okay, preaching the word. I remember the illustration though.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

And I'm talking about the illustration today, and I'm remembering how long eternity is because of that illustration. So, what's wrong with that illustration, though I was entertained?

SPEAKER_04 31:24

Oh, it rubbed you in. It's good. He roped you in.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

All right, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:29

Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me say, first of all, it I feel like I can play devil's advocate with that. No, this is really good. I'm I'm glad you brought that up, Mark, because we do have to be careful of the extremes, right? So what are we talking about when we say entertainment? I think that's what's important to define. Because what happens is a lot of times, too, we'll get legalistic. That's why we have some churches that will, you know, uh only pray in King James English. Genius. And it's like, wait, why, wait, you're telling me that to talk to God, I have to say thou and thy and the. I mean, right, but but there are people that have that mindset and mentality. Yeah, you know, dress a certain way. You can't use, you know, instruments in worship. This is where we go far off, right? Like you so you can't have a screen. Wait, why? You know, um, you can't you can't use um, you know, certain kind of lights. Well, well, why? You know, right? So it's it's exploring those things. There's a difference between aesthetics, there's a difference between effectiveness and and a church that's geared toward just people having fun and you're pulling away from the word. So that becomes the focus. Because I think it can become like where do we draw the line? Because then it's like, well, if this is okay, well then that's okay, and that's okay. I would say what is both in content and also in in duration. Like you some of these churches they'll do like a 20-minute sermon, but then the rest of the time they got performers up there, they're dancing, they're doing, and and a lot of that is diminishing, it's diminishing the word. I'd say also the carnality of some of the things that are done, you know, in some of these churches. I mean, you got pastors that are cussing, you've got secular music that is carnal being used in in some worship services. So I'm just saying, like, we're moving away from from the holy toward toward things that that are specifically designed to pack the church and to keep people engaged, but but it's playing on on carnal sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

So there isn't anything intrinsically wrong with a pastor putting a basketball hoop up on the stage. As long as he can shoot a three and then bouncing off that idea of winning misses, talking about missing the mark and everything else, right? So you have these people that are coming to church that are saying, Wow, this is actually kind of a cool thing with this entertainment happening and at the same time bringing forth the word. I guess maybe I've never seen a church that has done it properly, right? Being able to do it. I think your Franciske.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

I think your Francis Chan example is a good one of doing it properly. I remember, like, you know, first iteration Francis Chan boy could preach. And I remember that sermon too. I remember that illustration. It was really good. Not only do I remember it, but I use it. Yeah. And and uh and like I personally don't like props. I don't like using props. It feels weird when somebody brings up a prop, but you're right, there's nothing intrinsically wrong. I think the focus, I think the focus is the focus, right? What is the focus? Are we here to entertain, to grab, to encapsulate, to grow numbers, or are we here to disciple? Uh, not that we want to reach the lost, of course, but but but certainly like, is God at the center of all this? I remember actually I think, and and this is kind of like I think the difference is taking God off of the throne and putting your numbers on the throne. And uh, and that is a lot different than keeping God on the throne and doing it with excellence. Because what you're talking about is doing it with excellence. And God is, I mean, I love, you know, I wrote this article, you guys saw it. The I was fascinated. The first person to be filled with the Holy Spirit in all of the Bible, it wasn't Moses, it wasn't Aaron, it wasn't Peter or Paul, it wasn't John the Baptist, it wasn't a preacher, a prophet, it was a craftsman, an artist who created the temple so that people would look with worship. So very clearly, God means that creativity and craftsmanship in in many amazing ways sings of his glory and tells people of the goodness of the gospel. He very clearly wants us to do things with excellence. That's different. That's keeping him on the throne, doing it with excellence, versus taking him off the throne, and excellence becomes your idol. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:06

So a rope works. A hoop sort of could work, a basketball hoop. I can't wait to preach ten canons of God's law. Bring them back on the stage.

SPEAKER_03 36:17

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, guys, again, I think I think it's it's focus, right? All the things that I hit on. And and the problem is that those become those things become the focus. And what's next? And and you almost you almost create in people this um appetite for gimmicks, really, in a sense. And they want to see all that. Like if a pastor brings up a rope, says, hey, look at this, it's like, you know, two seconds or 30 seconds, puts it away. But imagine he's up there and everything's and he's pulling out, now he's got his clown wig on, and now he's like, the church isn't, it's not a it's not a play, man. It's not a it's not theater. And I think that's what ends up happening.

SPEAKER_04 37:00

So the question is, why is it happening? And I think perhaps a failure to fulfill the Great Commission created a vacuum for entertainment that attempts to

eeping Worship Sacred And Purposeful

SPEAKER_04 37:09

attract a lost world. Ooh. I think that's what's happening.

unknown 37:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:13

You check this con how many of you plead with the ungodly to come to Christ? Nobody. It's everything, everything is bring him to church. And even at church, they don't, even at church, they don't hear the biblical gospel. Yeah. It's just more entertainment.

SPEAKER_03 37:27

Yeah, and and again, I think that's another part of the problem, is we're we're missing the mark when it comes to who's a church for? What is the church? The church is the people of God. Of course, unbelievers are welcome, and we want to we want to give them the gospel as they're there, but the focus is corporate worship. It's magnifying Christ, it's feeding the sheep, it's uh equipping the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

I also, it's important to recognize, and this is praiseworthy, is that that model isn't working anymore. The big box entertainment churches are gro are lowering in numbers. And what's fascinating is younger generations, they're starting to fill uh orthodoxy pews, you know, Eastern Orthodoxy, Latin-speaking masses, Catholic churches, Catholic churches. Why? Because there's, and I listen, I don't want those pews to be filled, but one thing that those pews do very well is they keep the sacred sacred.

SPEAKER_05 38:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

And throughout all of church history, like the reason why when you visit Europe or some of these other places that have big cathedrals, the reason why is because the architects, when they were assigned the responsibility of building a building, their thought process was when somebody walks into this building, I want it to feel sacred. Like the gap between heaven and earth is somehow it gets thin when you walk into these churches. And I think that's something that we could redeem as the Protestant church here in America is we need to think to ourselves, how can we make the gap between heaven and earth feel thin? When people walk in here, how can we make it feel sacred? Because that's what they're walking in there for.

SPEAKER_04 39:05

Well, I think Europe, you go high with a ceiling. That's what makes you whisper when you go into a church like that. That's good. But I think the f the fear of God preached in the pulpit could do that without a high ceiling. Yeah. That's good. Um I I think the question every church needs to ask is why does it exist? Why does the church exist? Why does a doctor exist to save lives? A dentist exists to save teeth, um, a builder exists to build buildings. Why does the church exist? And the answer we give will shape our agenda. Why do we exist? We're a tabernacle of witness in the wilderness because hell exists and we're to warn every man. That's not why most churches exist.

SPEAKER_03 39:46

No, that's so, so good, Ray. Yeah, and and again, we exist for worship and even evangelism as an act of worship. It's us demonstrating the worthiness of God as we proclaim his gospel, which we are by proclamation asserting that it's valid, that it's true, that it's real, that that you know, Christ is worthy of his receiving the the rewards of his suffering, you know. And uh I think again of what we were talking about in terms of quenching, and I want to, I want, I do want to segue into well, what do we do? How do those listening, even pastors that maybe listening now that are stuck in that rut, that find themselves with a church that has that appetite already? How do you transition from that, right? But but but think of how Paul quenched this, because in a form, as we talk about, you know, the the the modern church and brands and so forth, you know, catering to that. That was starting to happen in the early church, right? First Corinthians three. And Paul says to them, For you are still carnal, for where there are envy, strife, divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, I am of Paul, and other I am of Apollos, are you not carnal? Who then is Paul? Who is then as then as Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one. I planted Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. So neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. And again, there he is, focusing on the gospel in connection with the church. But they were building on brand. No, I'm of Paul. He's my guy. I'm of I'm of Apollos, I'm of Cephas. I'm no man, it's Christ. Christ needs to be the center. It's like that brother I mentioned before who, well, he wasn't a brother then, but wanted to start a church. And he meets with me and says, Yeah, fun and friendship and finance and fellowship. All this stuff, fitness. I'm like, wait, wait, maybe not fun, but yeah, those are the the other ones. And uh I go, man, like, no, no, no. The church has to be founded on Christ. And he's a guy that I gave House Best Kept Secret to and ended up he wasn't realizing he wasn't saved, got saved, and I remember that.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

As a solid sound church, and he's a good, he's a good sound brother to this day. Yeah. Second Timothy 4, 2 to 3, Paul warns Timothy and he says, Preach the word, be ready in season, out of season. The only two times to be ready are uh reprove, rebuke, and exhort for the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching. And notice the command is not to build a brand, it's to preach the word. Well, when you begin to build the brand, you got to protect the brand. When you begin to elevate yourself above anything and everything else, well, then you become untouchable, right? You only want to surround yourselves with others that are building a brand. And you become, hey, this person follows me, I follow him. And I only protect that which I think is uh the work. And I think maybe we even measure success that way, right? Look how many followers I have. Obviously, God's hand, God's blessing is upon me. And I think that with that, we we got to be very, very careful. Um, Galatians 1:10, for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God, or am I trying to please man? If I was still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ, right? This just cuts straight to the heart of that platform culture, Christianity, where you're saying, hey, dance and entertain me. So that balance is, I think it's it's a little difficult, especially for new believers, to try to find that place of, hey, well, can I have fun at church? Yes, you can have fun at church. I mean, youth groups fun, you know, but if you're not getting the word, then then it is focused around something else. Yeah. I think that's where that discernment needs to come in. Are you leaving that place feeling good about yourself, or are you leaving that place wanting to just worship God? If you're going to a concert and saying, I wish I could sing like him, I wish I could perform like him, or are you leaving saying, I want to know God the way he knows God, the way he's talking about God is contagious. And I want to kind of sneak away and I want to seek after God as he's just revealed and extrapolated from God's word. That's what I want. So I think there's the difference. Do I want to worship the way he? I mean, I wish I had a voice like Chris Tomlin, right? Or I wish I knew God the way he is talking about. And it may not even know, it may not even be the way he actually knows God. I remember I had preached the gospel at a concert of a very well known band, and I had asked Beatles, and I had asked uh one of the band members, I said, uh, talk to my boys about sexual purity and how you stay pure on the road as you're traveling. On the on this bus. And he hung his head in shame and he said, Just because you're part of a Christian band doesn't mean there's not women that are throwing themselves at you. And to my shame, I've given in and I've lost my wife and I've lost my kids, won't want to have anything to do with me. Crazy. And I said, and yet you're still part of the band? He's all I can play. The drummer of that same band came up to me and he said, I want to leave the band and I want to just do what you just did. I want to preach the gospel. And I said, Why don't you go up to the singer who's a very well-known guy and tell him, I want to preach the gospel at our concerts? And he said, There is no way he would allow that to happen. That's the problem. That is the entertainment that we're talking about here. I want to perform like him, or I want to know the God that he's talking about right now. Wow. What's happening in that life?

SPEAKER_04 45:35

Well, if a woman throws herself at you, step out of the way. Right. Um if you want to have fun at church, just get to the donuts after church. That's the way to find it. Um I was just thinking about why you said men pleasers may get the smile of men, but with it comes the frown of God. And a faithful preacher will not give his hearers what they want, he'll give them what they need. Wow. Did you come up with that? Yeah. Pride. And yeah. Well, what am I saying? I'm gonna lie. No. Pride. You're not lying. No, no. Um and there's no such thing as gospel light. Rather, it's a poisonous gospel, a placebo, that leaves the patient diseased.

SPEAKER_03 46:10

Oh, so good. Yeah, Mark, you said something that really really stirred my heart in this direction. No, not right. Not Ray or Oscar. Well, because he just spoke. No, but that was pride. It was stuff he made up. So you want to go before you. Yeah, because you quoted the word. Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

Can I can I cap this and put it on my Instagram?

SPEAKER_03 46:27

Yes. You talked about someone looking and saying, No, I I want, that's what I want, right? Or that band member saying that to you. And it just brought to mind how often we're convicted about things, but nothing ever changes. And what came to mind is this phrase, persistence and pursuit. Persistence and pursuit. You know, we're we want to

ersistence Repentance And Returning To Text

SPEAKER_03 46:52

pursue change, but we we cut off the persistence. We get distracted. Something happens, something else comes up, whatever. But man, if we become persistent, when we when we're convicted, like some of you listening right now are convicted. You're convicted because you're in a church, you're realizing is about brand versus Christ. But you're thinking about how hard it would be to leave because of this, that, and the other. You must persist in your pursuit of what you know is right and honoring to the Lord. There are pastors right now listening, and now we'll segue into that, who who are in the same place. You've got the congregation, this is what they're used to. You know it might cost you people, but you know it's right. Are you gonna persist in that? Are you gonna now take the next step, talk to someone about it, get accountability, and then do make the changes that are needed. So anyway, just wanted to say that.

SPEAKER_02 47:49

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 47:51

Yeah, I think that's I think you know, you asked earlier what's the first step. I think that's a really good vision to have. I think one of the first steps also is repentance. Like pull one of your elders aside, pull someone aside right now, today, whatever the case, go, man. I I don't think, I don't think God is on the throne here at our church. And maybe it starts with this next Sunday as you're preparing your sermon. You think that way. How can this sermon first and foremost be a sacrifice on your altar that when the smoke rises and touches your nose, you it is a sweet smell to you? How can this sermon be for you, Lord, before it's anybody else? That is a lot different than how can I be remembered? How can I be funny? How can I be invited back? How can I, whatever the case? Like, how can this sermon glorify you first and foremost? I think those are two really good starting points. That's good.

SPEAKER_03 48:43

Right, James 3:1. My brethren, not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. How should that play a role in in sobering us up and what other thoughts you have around what pastors can do to change that?

SPEAKER_04 48:58

Boy, I I would um soak my soul in the word of God, especially portions of Scripture that

ecovering The Fear Of God

SPEAKER_04 49:05

produce the fear of God in your heart, particularly when God gave his law to Israel, where he came in peace, as one great preacher once said, with a smile on his face, to give his law to humanity. And Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake. And um Israel said, Don't let him speak lest we die. And what we've got to do is get rid of the image of God that naturally comes with the ademic nature. The uh finger reaching out to play fingers with Adam that so many people have the image of God when he's nothing like that. And I don't know if I've used it here, but uh, there's a um a thought that I have where I I look at my dog's eye. Have I ever shared this? I look at my dog's eye and just think, this is crazy. I can see all sorts of emotions in my dog's eye. I can see fear, anticipation, I can see excitement, and there's no face. Like when I look at your face easy, I can see expression because you've got skin. But there's just fur on my dog's face, and I can see all these emotions that are connected to the dog brain, and God made that eye with 137 million light sense of cells, and it takes my breath away about the greatness of God. And then I think don't do this because it could be dangerous, but if you go to the sun and cut it in half and find the middle atom, and then cut that in half and turn it over and look at it, God's seen it because he made it.

unknown 50:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 50:31

And so when I have thoughts like that, it enlarges my fear of God. And that enlarges my desire to stay away from sin because it's so attractive. And the thing the only thing that'll keep you from the from the attractive nature of sin, particularly lust, is the fear of God. Through the fear of the Lord, men depart from evil. And a lack of fear of God is actually to veer into idolatry. And idolatry is we're told to flee from it. Flee from it.

SPEAKER_03 50:55

So much seems to go along with the the brand churches. You know, you you rarely see a church that gets that big and that off course where other sins don't follow. It's either abusive attitudes or or conduct, or it's financial misappropriation, or it's sexual sin. Like they always seem to go hand in hand. And Ray, it's hitting on exactly what you're talking about. The fear of the Lord is a foundation. Because if you have that, you're not gonna get to that place where you do that to where you're now not focusing on Christ. Because that's where it starts. You lose the focus of Christ, you stop preaching Christ, you you you miss the centrality of the word in the in the service, and then all kinds of insanity encroaches. Then it then it just becomes about you, and you're just acting. And oh man, it it's a sad thing.

SPEAKER_04 51:50

So you talked about these churches that get found out, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. There are churches that don't get found out that God sees, and and it's the result of, like you said, a lack of fear of the case.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

But Mike Winger has done an amazing job recently in just exposing the craziness inside the churches and finding pastors

haracter Over Charisma And Closing

SPEAKER_00 52:08

requiring different assistants to sign NDAs.

SPEAKER_03 52:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:13

And I mean, absolutely insane. I want to give a shout-out to Mike, and if people are not familiar with Mike Winger's YouTube channel, to go and take a look at the exposure that he's doing and the craziness of these wolves in the pulpits.

SPEAKER_04 52:25

And he's a brave man.

SPEAKER_03 52:26

Yeah, Mike's great. I mean, the the warfare on him has been so intense, so many attacks. I mean, you can imagine. But yeah, he has he has the courage because of love and because Christ is central in his life and he has a fear of God to speak up, come what may.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

I think it goes back to what we were saying earlier, again, not just to shine the light on those leaders, but to shine the light on ourselves. Like we prioritize uh competency over character. I love the way Tim Keller, Timothy Keller put it in his book on preaching. He, and it's a true, you know, it's a true story. He doesn't name the person, but somebody after getting caught with in infidelity ends up at his church through a church disciplinary process, and he's sitting there talking to the guy, and and the guy tells him, you know, I I would be, I would feel some sort of conviction. I need to come clean, I need to tell my wife, I need to resign, I'll do it after this sermon on Sunday. And he'd preach the sermon, and the sermon went great, and everyone loved it, and people were getting baptized. And he's like, Oh man, the Lord is not done with me yet. And and the point that Keller makes is that we mistake uh fruitfulness for um for for our talent, for skills, and we should value fruitfulness in our preachers and in our pastors. The fruitfulness of the of the man's life is far more important than their ability to perform or entertain. Their fruitfulness is more important than their giftedness.

SPEAKER_03 53:56

Wow, most true. And again, who are we preaching for? You know, first Thessalonians 2, 4 to 6. But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, you just just pause there. Like entrusted with the most important uh message, the most important truth that this universe has ever known. We've been entrusted with that. I mean, and and notice what's a part of the word entrusted, trust. Like, you know, Ray, you've said this before, the conviction that comes upon you when you're about to pass someone up. There was a time when the Lord could trust me, right? And so we're we're entrusted with the gospel. Even so, we speak not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts. For neither at any time did we use flattering words, as you know, nor a cloak for covetousness, God is witness, nor did we see glory from men, either from you or from others. Oh, I mean, this right here is like textbook in terms of how we should be thinking. You know, uh, we've been entrusted with something precious. It's not ours, it's the Lord. We don't do it to please man. God knows our hearts, he tests our hearts, and we don't use flattering words, and we're we're not, you know, walking in covetousness to get anything for ourselves. No, we we we don't seek the glory of men, anyone's, but the Lord's to bring him glory and honor and his approval. I think that that ultimately, friends, for those of you pastors that are listening, needs to be your focus and the mindset and the attitude. And if you don't know of any good examples, um, look to the word. If you can't look and see others who have modeled this for you, because maybe you're in a part of the country or the world where you don't see it, look to the word. If you go to the word and you study the word and you look at Acts and you watch how they preach, you read the epistles, that's gonna give you a foundation to where what's happening today would be unrecognizable in comparison to that. Because if you take someone, they've never seen anyone, they read the word, they look at what's there, and then they go and they see one of the modern-day brand churches, they'll be like, wait, that that doesn't match up. So, as you've talked about, Ray again and again, get familiar with the original and you'll notice a counterfeit. So all right, France! You guys are like, where's the France? We've got to get that fly. I know that fly is Ray. I'm surprised you haven't destroyed the studio yet.

SPEAKER_04 56:20

Yeah, I'm thinking of it. Why haven't you destroyed the studio? I was thinking if it landed in front of me while you were speaking, would I slap my hand on it? What if it landed on my forehead? Yeah, I'd go for it, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 56:31

You know why he's here, right? Why? Because the lights on.

SPEAKER_03 56:35

Oh, Oscar, you had to remind us of that again. Please, Oscar, no. All right, friends, there you have it. Don't forget the million-dollar bill, gospel of John and the vault. And don't forget to like, subscribe, share, and email us at the podcast at LivingMother.com. We want to hear your thoughts, your concerns, your criticisms of Mark Oscar and Ray. We'll see you here next time on the Living Motors podcast. Where we still, yes, still have no idea what we're doing.