Ep. 390 - The Dangers of “Spiritual Formation”

Spiritual growth has become a buzzword in modern Christianity, but not every path labeled formation leads to truth. Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar examine how the modern emphasis on spiritual formation can drift from the gospel when it prioritizes experience over Scripture. They explain that while the desire to grow in Christ is good, many teachings introduce subtle distortions that pull believers toward mysticism, legalism, or emotionalism. Culture often reshapes spiritual growth to mirror the world’s values rather than God’s design. True sanctification is not about chasing experiences but about being transformed through Scripture and union with Christ, rooted in the truth God has already revealed.

The guys highlight the growing problem of biblical illiteracy and its impact on the church. When believers stop meditating on God’s Word, they begin to elevate personal experiences and opinions above truth. This shift opens the door to confusion, weak doctrine, and influential voices lacking biblical depth. The guys stress that discernment is essential. Spiritual growth requires investing in Scripture through meditation, memorization, and study, rather than treating the Bible as a quick solution. When the Word is neglected, believers become vulnerable to ideas that feel spiritual but are disconnected from truth.

The conversation turns to the danger of replacing the gospel with methods or formulas for growth. There is no shortcut to spiritual maturity, and growth comes through the means God has already provided, including His Word, prayer, and dependence on Christ. The guys emphasize that believers are not striving to earn holiness but living from the holiness already given through union with Christ. When people focus on imitation rather than union, Christianity becomes self-effort rather than grace. True transformation flows from knowing Christ deeply, not from mastering techniques or chasing emotional experiences that promise quick change.

Finally, the guys address how misplaced priorities affect both worship and evangelism. When experience replaces truth, worship can become self-focused rather than God-centered, and the urgency of the gospel begins to fade. A lack of emphasis on sin and judgment leads to a diluted message that removes the need for repentance. The guys call listeners back to a reverent, Scripture-anchored faith in which worship is rooted in truth, and the gospel remains central. Spiritual life is not about appearances or feelings but about trusting Christ, resting in His finished work, and being shaped daily by His Word.

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Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro

Transcript

A Different Gospel Warning

SPEAKER_06 0:00

Galatians 1, it says, you are so quickly deserting him and are turning to a different gospel. Right? So the danger, it's not discipline, it's it's substitution. When we start start substituting Christ for something else. With Leonard Ravenhill, you know, he said uh something to the effect of I I wrote part of it down. I know it's not right, uh, but you'll get the gist. Uh the Holy Spirit could be withdrawn from the church today, and 95% of what we do would go on without anyone noticing the difference. Or there's enough machinery happening within, I think it's kind of the way he worded it. Yeah. Happened with the whole within uh the church that if the spirit were to leave, everything would just continue to go.

Famous Houses And White House Tour

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Question, question, question. You know what that reminded me of, Mark? Remember back in the day the federated commercials? Federated, federated.

SPEAKER_06 0:57

I don't, I don't remember it.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Whatever, Mark.

SPEAKER_06 0:59

I remember Max Hedrum.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Oh. Max Headrum. That was like, you know what? That was ahead of its time because no, he was like a dude in a he did Coke commercials, yeah, but it was ahead of its time because it was kind of like AI, right?

SPEAKER_06 1:12

I see what you did there. Max Hedrum. Um was it Live or Memorics? Yeah, it was. Do you remember Vern?

unknown 1:19

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Hey, Vern. Yeah. Hey, Vern goes to camp.

SPEAKER_03 1:23

He was just great.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

He was the best.

SPEAKER_03 1:26

Yeah, it wasn't.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Do you remember the THX thing or like ubiquitous? Iconic. Yes.

SPEAKER_07 1:32

Do you remember the THX commercials for the tapecks? And the guy would sit there and then the music would blast?

SPEAKER_03 1:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_07 1:38

Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Wow. That was way before your time last year. Brown tape decks. Anyway, question! Question, question. Which house would you guys say is the most famous and most recognizable house in the world? Thank you. Mark and I went there. We did.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

I got to go to the White House.

SPEAKER_06 2:00

We sat in uh President Trump's chair near the old office.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Do you guys understand like how long I dreamed about going to the chair? So you sat in the president's chair. Oh no, I wish I would have gotten shot for sure. I'm just so naive. No, so yeah, well, we got to go to the White House with our wives, and we got to go to the Capitol. So we have a friend. I'm not gonna name drop or anything, but we do have a friend in Congress who's a very godly man. Stop it, right? Very godly man. Great brother. And so we we got to hang out with him uh in a very special room in the Capitol, and then he set up a tour for us at the White House. Well, it was a special room. I can't say it'll give it away, right? Special room.

SPEAKER_07 2:41

By the way, I disagree. The White House is not the most famous house. I would say Gryffindor is the most famous house. Whatever. Probably true. Whatever.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Probably true. Um so anyway, what an epic journey, huh, Mark? I'm still buzzing from it.

SPEAKER_06 2:54

You're not are you referring to the room where the the State of the Union address takes place? No, no, the other room where we sat in?

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Yeah. Um what I think. We got to go into the house chamber. The house chamber, that's where it's called.

SPEAKER_06 3:04

They have gas masks underneath all the chairs. In case something goes sad. That's genius.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

So is that from the 1950s? Uh probably. Well, we had to go through a metal detector. They took our stuff, they took our phones, everything. And we had to go through a metal detector to go into the house chamber. You know, that's where the State of the Union is given. That's where the House Congress.

SPEAKER_06 3:23

But we hit our tic-tacks in our left pocket because we've grown up like that, right? You shake hands with your right, tic-tac on the left. It's just loose. Well, here easy and I were going through the metal detector, and he goes, Oh, nothing left in your pockets. So we're taking out these tic-tacks. The guy's like, I took loose tic-tacks, and then M comes easy. Same thing. Loose tic-tac. Tic-tac. Where are you guys from? I know.

SPEAKER_03 3:42

When Adam fell, so did his Brit. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 3:45

But it was, it was, it was just an epic journey. And then Rachel and I got to go to lunch with our good friend Paul Washer, which uh sort of very convicting. Pedom. P Dumb. So convicting. It's so funny because you know, he's got a mission, missions organization, and the restaurant we ate at was called Missions. Did he live out there? Uh he lives in Virginia. Virginia. And so we met up with him at a restaurant and had lunch.

SPEAKER_03 4:07

Is he still in pain?

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Yeah, probably he's always in pain. Pray for that brother. But you know, I mean, Rachel and I sat there and we were all in tears. He's just talking to us about God and the power of the Lord and just what God did in his life and how he moved in him. And he's just bawling. We're sitting there, you know, I'm eating my tears. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:26

And that's what you guys do to me. He sang Refiner's Fire, didn't he?

SPEAKER_02 4:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

He wouldn't do that.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Anyway, the White House is so cool.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

All

Listener Encouragement From Alan

SPEAKER_01 4:35

right, friends. Time for a cool classy comment. This is from Alan.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

My name Alan. Stevie Swan.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

It is, isn't it? It's from uh season four. Yeah, we're in Paris. And I went to interview a guy and he didn't speak English. He's dressed like a mime or something, right? Yeah, he was dressed like a mime wife face. And I said, uh I said, have you have you broken the Ten Commandments? No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

He said, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 5:03

What did I say?

SPEAKER_02 5:05

He said, have you kept the Ten Commandments or have you broken them?

SPEAKER_03 5:07

Yes. That's one of the problems.

SPEAKER_06 5:13

But it actually made it into the show. Which makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

My heart warms as I talk about this guy. I know what it is. It wasn't very likable. But but then, yeah, and this on this TV show in a room my God, who's the best? Hi, my name Alan. Okay. My name is Alan. Sorry, Alan. From Perth, Australia. And uh and you should be reading this in Australian accent. Yeah. And I'm 15 years old. Just wanted to thank you for this godly podcast, and I thank the Lord for impact, the impact it has had on me. I've listened to the book Fight Like a Man about five times on Audible, and it has been massively helpful in my battle for society.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

So that's your book. Fight Like a Man.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

That is my book. The podcast has been very helpful and eye-opening in learning about the importance of the scriptures. I pray that the Lord will bless every one of you and your families and your honorable ministry. Kind regards, Alan. Thank you, Alan.

SPEAKER_05 6:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

What an encouragement and thank you for listening to that. Ecu for insomnia.

SPEAKER_03 6:11

He's going to change his name from Alan to something.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Yes. Poor guy. No, thank you, brother, for writing in at such a young age pursuing the Lord and setting your heart and mind toward purity. Keep that up. All

Book List Request And Resources

SPEAKER_02 6:24

right. Get ready for a new segment called Quality Questions. This is uh from Courtney Fowler. I listened to your podcast while I am driving, which is every day. Just about every episode, y'all recommend a book to read, and I can't write it down because I'm driving. My husband would love some of those books for Christmas. Do y'all have a list of those recommended readings? No. All right, moving right along. Sorry. Sorry, Courtney. Courtney, actually, great question. You guys, we should do that.

SPEAKER_03 6:53

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

You know, we we should create a list put it on the podcast. Yeah. Page. Yeah. Where people can go because it's true. You know, we we throw a lot out, but for people to have that list, it'd be good.

SPEAKER_07 7:04

I actually seen somebody put together, I'd love to do this on my like social media, Instagram or something, where I've seen like a link tree where they have just a list of like 101 books, books on a like all of their book recommendations. I think I need to do that.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

That'd be uh probably pretty helpful. You know, I mean seriously, people are always looking to reliable sources for books. When I think of book, I'm like, ah, how am I gonna find it? Is there you know an organization that lists all those? You know, so all right.

SPEAKER_07 7:29

We actually do have a list. It's called uh store.livingwaters.com. Oh books. I like your attitude.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

All right, time for a podcast ranking shout out number two Christian podcasts in Liberia. Thank you, our Liberian friends, for listening. We're going live in Liberia. In Liberia with hysteria. And if you were in my car, I'd steer you the right way every single day because that's what I like to do, and I don't get paid. No, that's what I'm doing, and that's what I'm pursuing. There's a lot of life that I'm going through, and then all right, friends of an hour.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Just an off beat. You'll still go, you'll still go. Did you do that deliberately? Well boy.

SPEAKER_07 8:08

Sorry, this just and we are now number 137 in library 37,000.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

And now a radically revolutionary resource, this broadcast is right.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

Why Muslims reject Christianity booklet, which our dear brother John Harris wrote, which is doing phenomenally well. I mean, people are snatching these up.

SPEAKER_03 8:26

Yeah, they they are. I've noticed that too.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

So maybe in Liberia, if you're surrounded by Muslims, that would be a good one for you. But all over the world, really, uh, to have them on hand, you have neighbors, friends, you live in a country in Europe, which have a you know a lot of Muslims, even here would be good for you. And here as well, of course. We need a series for all the different worldviews, right? We talked about that. We're going to do it. We are going to do it. All right, friends, and don't forget uh Living Waters Mug, the one to study Bible, Living Waters TV, all at LivingWaters.com. And don't forget the podcast YouTube channel. Subscribe.

Defining Spiritual Formation And Risks

SPEAKER_02 9:04

All right, guys, today we're talking about the danger of spiritual formation. I've never seen Mark and Ray so confused in all my life. What? I did suggest this in the last podcast.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Oh, you did. Oh, Mark, thank you for doing that. Yeah, you're welcome.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

All right, let's get real. This was Oscar's idea. Yes. I forgot that it was my idea. So then when you sent it, I was like, that's a bad idea. You're like, what is that all about? And then I had to remind you. So, Oscar, uh, all the weight is on your shoulders. So give some clarity because look, when people hear this at the outset, spiritual formation, what are you talking about? Dangers. I want to be formed spiritually. So explain.

SPEAKER_07 9:46

Yeah. Well, first and foremost, I think we do have to define terms, and the definition of spiritual formation is nothing to reject. Ultimately, spiritual formation is a modern-day way of describing sanctification and the disciplines of grace that are involved in our synergistic process of pursuing that sanctification. So, on the offset, spiritual formation is something we should celebrate. It's a part of the Christian life, certainly. Um, the challenges, there's been some newer books and authors in which start to lose a sense of the gospel as they speak about the process of sanctification. But before we even go into the challenges, I actually want to commend a reality here. That I see, because I've actually read a handful of those books. Um, you know, in my context, I I've got a lot of friends who are younger in their early 20s, and these are authors that are influencing them, New York time bestsellers. And so out of curiosity, I've read those books, and I would tell you that that most of most of what's in the context of these new spiritual formation books are is really good and helpful. The problem I've said often in these conversations, it's not what they say, it's what they don't say. It's what's left out. But one of the things they do a really good job of, and I think we need to pause and recognize this before we critiqued this new movement, is they do a good job of identifying the problem within our evangelical cultural context.

Why Young Christians Want Balance

SPEAKER_07 11:20

So one of the angst that you're seeing with especially younger men and women is that the spiritual leaders that we're used to following these days, they focus so much on what we should be against in culture. Here are all the ways the world has gone mad. And they do is they create these, like these buzzwords, these these podcasts, these clickable YouTube videos that feel very clickbaity-y. And it and it drives Christianity to think in a very particular perspective. And then these young men are showing, young and men and women are showing up to their you know parents' Thanksgiving dinners, they walk in and and in the living room is a news channel that just has such a cynicism towards the world around them. And when they step into this version of evangelical Christianity, they feel an increase of anxiety and uncertainty. Um, and all the while, ultimately, all of this contact that that is all of this content that is evangelical is actually shaping us to be less like Christ and more like the world around us. So we need to take an honest account of evangelicalism and say maybe we've left a void in what it means to pursue piety. And the response is that people are looking for balance and well-being. They're they're rediscovering prayer and meditation and Sabbath and reading scripture and solitude, and they find that it's good and stimulating from for their souls. In other words, they're being reminded in a positive way that we are ought to be transformed to be more like Christ rather than to be conformed into the image of this world. And so I think it's just first and foremost, we should stop and reflect. Uh, content in regards to the sanctifying work of Christ that grows our fruitfulness is lacking. Not because it's just newly being discovered, but maybe we've just been focusing on the wrong things in our current cultural context.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

No. Yeah, look, when I came to Christ, I was passionate to grow in holiness. It was it was this instant yearning and desire. Right. That that's kind of like what happened with Wesley. We we we talked about the movie Great Awakening in the last podcast, and we talked about how George Whitfield was transformed. But but a guy like John Wesley, who had the the holy club, they were called, right? He he was pursuing holiness, but even in that scene we talked about where he was correcting George Whitfield, there there was an understanding. Because it's easy to to get him balanced. How do we find the balance?

SPEAKER_03 14:15

When you when you read uh Wesley's testimony, he was actually He had actually been where Whitfield was when he was trying to earn God's favor. And the Holiness Club, that's what they were trying to do. And it was only when he came across to the US was the Anabaptists he saw on that ship.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

It was the Moravians.

SPEAKER_03 14:34

Moravians, yeah, who who had no fear during a terrible storm or something like that. And he said, Why? And they said, Well, it's the inner witness. I said, What are you talking about? He that believes has the witness in himself, and that's what Wesley was lacking, because he had never really received the new birth. And so uh uh I can't even remember what your question was, but it was a great question.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

How do we find the balance? The balance of, because Oscar's hitting on some really good things here, you know, um, that that there is a legitimacy in wanting to grow and wanting to have that nearness to God and and wanting to develop spiritually, but but sometimes we can get imbalanced. We either go toward legalism or we go toward mysticism and and other dangerous

Biblical Illiteracy And Daily Scripture

SPEAKER_02 15:17

areas.

SPEAKER_03 15:17

I think there's an ignorance of scripture.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Oh, boom, that's it.

SPEAKER_03 15:21

I just people don't feed on the word of God. And I so many people I asked me, you're Christian, yes, love the Lord. You read the word daily, and it's yeah, I get a Bible verse on my app. It comes from it's like a some do you eat food? Yeah, I just have a candy now and then, once a day, sort of thing. You gotta soak your soul in the word of God. I had a a guy come around yesterday to do some electrical work. Every time I went into check and was there for hours, he was listening to scripture. He just, there was not a time I went to see him where he wasn't listening to scripture. So I texted him, I said, I was so encouraged to see you soak soaking your soul in the word of God. Wow. And he was getting excited about it when I went in. He'd say, Did you hear that? And he and and that's that's the key. Desire the sincere milk of the word that you might grow thereby. And if you don't, you won't grow. You'll be blown about by every wind of doctrine because you're superficial in your understanding.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

Yeah, Mark, biblical illiteracy, uh Ray, I'm so glad you highlighted that. I mean, it's like duh, it's right under our noses. But how bad is biblical illiteracy today?

SPEAKER_06 16:25

Yeah, it was a spur uh sprul that said, every one of us is a theologian, we're just bad theologians, right? If if we are not meditating on God's word as truth, we're gonna believe lies are true. And this is why it is important to meditate through God's word day and night. In Psalm 1, it encourages us if we meditate on God's law day and night, we'll be like a cherry, firmly planted by the rivers of water. You'll bring forth fruit in season, your leaf won't wither. And whatever you do will prosper. Well, what an amazing thing, right? So we are uh replacing the truth of God's word with experience.

Experience Replacing Truth And Discernment

SPEAKER_06 16:58

Now, here's the danger with that, right? I want to have an experience. You just had an experience, and your experience seems so beautiful. You brought others to tears with your experience. God is not near to me the way he is near to you, so you must be more spiritual than I am. And why is God punishing me when in reality I'm just trying to live my life as well? And we start elevating whatever it is that we're seeing around us higher than the word. And so now we have praise gatherings with no word being taught. Or we have people going up there sharing whatever they want to share. I spoke at an event, a college event, and they allowed the college, the pastor allowed people to get up and share before I shared testimonies throughout the conference. And this guy got goes up there and he says, I just want to say that the Lord has shared with me that everything that Mark is sharing is wrong.

SPEAKER_07 17:56

No way.

SPEAKER_06 17:56

I'm not kidding. And I was like, I look over the senior pastor was there during the time, and uh he wasn't normally there, but I looked over at the senior pastor, I looked over at the college pastor, and they're just like you know, and I go, I go, hey, did you want to address that? He's oh no, you're up. I'm like, okay. So I went up there and I said, I go, hey, you know, thank you so much for sharing what you share. And I love the fact that we have the liberty to just kind of speak inside of each other's lives. I would also like to challenge you a little bit in that uh the Boreans, they were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica. Thessalonica.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

Thessalonica.

SPEAKER_06 18:38

And because they studied the scriptures out, they didn't just hear it, they received it with gladness, but then they studied out to see if what they were being taught was true and accurate. How would we know if what I'm sharing with you is false? I was accused of sharing with you everything I'm sharing with you is wrong, but how would we know? We need to align it with scripture. And no scripture came forward from him, and he didn't point out anything that I said specifically. He said everything I was saying was wrong. So the onus is on you. What did I share that was wrong? So listen, if you if you're struggling with what I'm sharing, listen, I'm here in between the sessions, we have like eight of them. Come and talk to me. Let's hang out, let's talk. You know, so but they're right there. What did we establish? There's a danger. You know, everybody should be able to speak their mind, but not everybody should be given a microphone. Yeah, just like with uh with singing, everybody should sing, but not everybody should be given a microphone. Let not many of you become teachers. And when you are in front of a crowd speaking and you're sharing, you're a teacher. So we need to be careful. Amen.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

Thanks for reminding me, Mark, about singing. Mark meant my backup singer. You know, Oscar, I I have said this particular thing for years, and it's this to deal with sin sinfully is sinful. To deal with sin sinfully is sinful.

SPEAKER_06 20:10

So I shared that with my with one of my family members last night.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

No way, seriously. Wow. So but but I think there's a principle there in that like you're talking about, those that are pursuing spiritual formation are are doing it as a reaction against maybe some error they see in the church, deadness and and maybe a spirit of religiosity versus a passion, a passionate pursuit of the Lord, lukewarmness, whatever. But but the pendulum swings, right? And so people go to the other end and then it becomes this mysticism that we're talking about, and they start going to Eastern practices, they start going toward Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy and doing contemplative prayer, and they they start getting attracted by the monastic life that I know Ray hates. Ray, how do you feel about monks and monkism?

SPEAKER_03 21:01

Well, I do notice modern hairstyles have gone back to the 16th century where they shave like the monks did back then. It's just crazy. Seriously, I don't know what's going on with hair. Yeah, monks and monkettes with a vow of silent. That's that's the modern church.

SPEAKER_06 21:14

Yeah, away from the world, just enough for the Lord to go.

unknown 21:17

Tssss.

SPEAKER_06 21:18

Oh, yeah. How's it?

SPEAKER_03 21:19

And a monastery without walls is the contemporary church.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Yeah. So so Oscar, talk about talk about some some of those those dangers. What are they? What are the dangers? I I know you highlighted them a little bit, but maybe we can get a little deeper.

Hearing God Through The Word

SPEAKER_02 21:34

Like, first of all, let's talk about maybe the element of what Mark Mark said. God told me, you know. Um why is that dangerous? Because there's something attractive about that. When when I hear someone saying, Oh man, and and this happened and that happened, like I'm like, Oh, I want the Lord to move in my life, you know. But but why is there a danger in seeking to hear words from God?

SPEAKER_07 21:58

Yeah, well, the the problem is that our Our hearts are deceitful. Idol factories. Idol factories, right? Luther mentioned them as idol factories. The problem is that there are so many things, there's so many layers that stand between us and the pure and perfect and inerrant and authoritative word of God. That if I'm just going to sit quietly and listen, how do I have the discernment? What we actually need is not so much ears to hear, but the discernment to listen. And when we have the discernment to listen, what we realize is that God has already spoken to us in his word. And that's exactly it. You guys kind of already answered it. Actually, I was at Cornell University and a very sweet young lady came up and was just like, man, how do I hear the voice of God? Like I'm constantly trying to hear the voice of God. And she's kind of almost, and again, lovely lady, I believe she knows the Lord, but she kind of almost flippantly was like, like, you know, um like people will tell me to read the Bible, but like I want to hear the voice of God. And I go, and I said exactly what you said. I'm like, man, the the issue is biblical literacy. God has already spoken. Like, if if imagine someone that you adore, that you love, that you've been in communion with, that they leave one day uh and and yet to return, but what you have for them is a series of 66 letters sealed in our envelope from them to you. And those envelopes are sitting on your desk, and you're sitting there like, I miss my loved one. I wish I could just hear from them. I'd love to know what they have, like to say. I just miss talking with them. I just long to hear their voice again. Oh man, I hope one day it's like, open the letters. Open the letters. And that's the thing is that God has spoken everything. I think often we approach God's word as an ATM machine rather than an investment account. What I mean by that is you go to God's word and you're like, all right, God, I need to hear from you today. You open it up and you point your finger at a Bible verse and you're like, what is he telling me? We want an ATM. We want to withdraw immediately. But to saturate your life, you mentioned Psalm 1, right? To experience a Psalm 1 life is to invest meditating on God's word, memorizing God's word, allowing it to be imprinted into your heart so that when you then go out into the world, God then speaks to you through the word that you've meditated on. I I heard, I'll close it with this. I heard um, I was reminded of the story of Sully. Remember the pilot? Yeah. So Sully the pilot, yeah, yeah. So Sully the pilot, for those who don't know, like he takes off, and within like 200 seconds, both engines die out on his airplane, and he's got 206 passengers, I think, on there. So he's making a turn. This is in New York City, and he's looking at the airport, which has buildings and skyscrapers between him. And then he looks over at the Hudson River and Sully makes a decision. It not he makes a decision based on intuition to land the plane. Ends up a hero saving everybody's life. Why did Sully do that? Why what what enabled Sully to do that was years of training and preparation. He invested, and when the time called it, he knew called for it, he knew what to do. For us to hear from God, we need to invest in his word so that when the moment comes, we know what he has for us.

Union With Christ Over Imitation

SPEAKER_03 25:31

Let me mention something here. Um Tucker Carlson uh mentioned this, and I've I was just dumbfounded and I couldn't figure out what he was talking about. We're proud to announce the launch of our new bookstore with Russell Brand's How to Become a Christian in Seven Days. That's the name of the book. That's the name of the book. And I thought, where what? Nicodemus. And the problem is that we've got charismatic leaders who lack sound doctrine. People look to them. I mean, Russell Russell Brand just got baptized, what, a year ago or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:02

And I don't know if I've ever saw him without his almost his naval show. He's always undone at the front. I thought something's not right here. And he's being thrust to the forefront with no experience. What you're talking about? Trying to land a plane when he's had no experience. And he's now he's written a book that people are jumping out. Looked at the comment section. This sounds so wonderful. And you know, and I think the problem is with many of these people, they look to Jesus not as a savior, but as an example. And often Catholics looked at him. We've got to live our lives like Jesus lived, not realizing that he came to die for our sins. It's Christ in you, the hope of glory, not Christ an example for you to live after. If you want to love live after Jesus, okay, go live a life of moral perfection and thought, word, and deed. You're gonna fall on your face. You've got to trust in him who came to die on the cross for us.

SPEAKER_07 26:49

And that's key. You mentioned the monastic tradition. So Calvin and his institutes warns us. He talks often about the monastic tradition. Um, and ultimately what he talks about is the difference between union with Christ versus the imitation of Christ. And he warns about this. Essentially, what he's telling us is that the monastic tradition says that the monk must ascend to God through contemplation, speculation, and merit. Versus the gospel tells us that God descends to us in our humility. One is a moving labyrinth of effort, and the other is God moving towards us in grace. Uh Hebrews 12, 2, fix your eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. Matthew 16, 24, Jesus tells his disciples, if anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Uh Romans 6, 6, our old self was crucified with him. Galatians, I have been crucified with Christ. Again, those who belong to Christ Jesus have been crucified with the flesh, with its passions. Colossians 3, you have died and your life is hidden with Christ. As one author put it in critiquing about the new version of spiritual formation, if the gospel is discipleship, then the gospel is law. But the gospel is not discipleship, the gospel is union with Christ. Trevan Wax says it like this In our zeal for spiritual formation, we might mistake discipline for dependence. There's no magic formula for spiritual growth and no silver bullet to spiritual renewal. God offers us means of grace, postures, and practices his spirit works through to transform our hearts so that we become more like Jesus. I think ultimately what I would say is we miss, uh, we we lose sight of the reality of the gospel, and the gospel is Jesus. Union with him, not imitation of him.

SPEAKER_03 29:09

I think that's why we must remember we don't preach a doctrine, we preach a person. Amen. Preach Jesus sometimes. When we don't do that, the world admires Jesus because of who he was and what he said. But that's like admiring a parachute and saying it's well packed without putting it on. It's only when you put your trust in it that it will benefit you.

SPEAKER_06 29:29

Yeah. You know, I want to go back for just a second with what Oscar was talking about concerning uh the voice of God. Um it was Jim Elliott who said you don't you don't need a voice when you have a verse. And we have the verse, we have the passages, and it's enough. And it was uh Justin Peters who said, if you want God to speak to you, well then read his word. If you want God to speak to you out loud, well then read his word out loud. Right? We complicate things. We we want to have this weird esoteric experience, maybe this Gnostic insight that nobody else has, right?

Legalism And Using The Law Lawfully

SPEAKER_06 30:09

That you are now the spokesman because you've experienced something uh tremendous. But it it always has to go back down to what does the word of God say? Yeah, because we can enter into a place of legalism when we don't rely upon solely what the word of God says. And I think that a lot of legalism is birthed from somebody who wants to walk with God, they just don't know how. So they start setting up rules and regulations. And no, no, I'm I can't go to Disneyland, you know, because uh fill in the blank. Oh no, I can't watch the Clippers play because of I've got it's not a redemption of time. And it may or may not be, but I'm saying when you start laying that law upon somebody else, that's legalism, when you lay it upon yourself that you cannot do something because now fill in the blank. We just got to be careful. You it just needs to be weighed out properly, and so line it up with scripture. And I love, you know, we we talk about hey, no Bible, no breakfast, no read, no feed. This this is just a way of living. You know, and this is much different than saying, hey, I'm not gonna watch this or partake in that. Um Galatians 1, it says, you are so quickly deserting him and are turning to a different gospel, right? So the danger, it's not discipline, it's it's substitution. When we start start substituting Christ for something else. You know, he said uh something to the effect of I I wrote part of it down. I know it's not right, uh, but you'll get the gist. Uh the Holy Spirit could be withdrawn from the church today, and 95% of what we do would go on without anyone noticing the difference. Or there's enough machinery happening within, I think it's kind of the way he worded it, yeah. Happened with the whole within uh the church that if the spirit were to leave, everything would just continue to go. What a scary thought.

SPEAKER_03 32:02

There's actually a paradox with the Christian life that doesn't make sense until you think about it, and that is when we use the law lawfully, it strips us of self-righteousness. When it shows us that God requires truth in the inward parts, that lust is adultery, hatred is murder, lying lips, and abomination to the Lord, then salvation to make that leap is like trying to jump the Grand Canyon when your legs are tied. You just cannot do it.

SPEAKER_06 32:27

Well, no, Evil Knievil did that.

SPEAKER_03 32:29

Yeah, no, he broke every bone in his body and you his daughter. Poor guy. Anyway, um Evil Knievel, what a name. What's your name? Evil. That's great. Can Evil. What are your siblings' names? Stevil. Yeah, so when when the when the law is used lawfully, it makes us trust alone in the grace of God. I I die without God's grace under that law. That's right. And it separates me from works of righteousness. So I never want to go back to the law because I know what's function was to bring me to a point where I trust alone in Jesus and not my good works.

SPEAKER_07 33:02

A schoolmaster. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Got a question for you, Easy, but before that, you just reminded me my marriage has been radically shaped by a paradox. Uh, one of our early mentors were two doctors, the Hendricksons, and we used to be like, man, you guys are a paradox or shaping our marriage. Anyway, uh a pair of dots.

SPEAKER_03 33:21

Oh, goodness. I gotcha.

SPEAKER_06 33:23

The why's got it quickly.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

Well, yeah, the why's got it quickly, but when a joke has to be explained that kills it, do they still flog these days? You would flog.

SPEAKER_07 33:33

Uh spiritual disciplines are so important.

Books And Habits That Build Discipline

SPEAKER_07 33:36

And one of the things that's redeemable about um rediscovering sanctification is spiritual different disciplines. But there are so many books, and you reference many of them. What are what are books that have influenced your spiritual disciplines? Because I think you're a great example of that. Like I know your daily routines, I know how disciplined you are towards them. And it's not obedience for, I would just say, as someone who's witnessed your life easy, it it seems to me it that your disciplines are not for the sake of reaching God, but because God has reached out to you. Like your disciplines are shaped by your affection for the Lord. And so what's shaped that?

SPEAKER_02 34:13

Yeah, you know, um, I I love the saying that says, every new thing learned about God is a new reason for loving him. That's good. And I want to love the Lord, I want to know my my king. And so, you know, there there's that that challenge for us of like, hey, if you're really financially strapped and yet you inherited a huge sum of money, if you're not using that money, then something's not right there mentally. Either you you have amnesia and you forgot you have it, or you never believed you inherited it, so you never made use of it. And so my my catalyst for pursuing the Lord is the the the reality of this is the word of God. And and that's a challenge. If we really believe it's his word, then doesn't that mean we would consume it and go back to it? And if we really believe that God listens to our prayers and that the fervent, effective prayer of a righteous man avails much, and that this is the confidence that we have. If we ask anything according to his will, he hears us, if we know he hears us, we know we have what we've asked of him. Like whoa. And so that that that's that's a part of it. The other part of it is I am doomed without the Lord. I'm doomed. I know my sinful nature, I know my proclivities toward rebellion, and without staying connected to him, I'm doomed. He's my lifeline, he's my everything. And so, so that that has been really the the catalyst for me. And I would recommend to anyone listening to check out what I would say is probably the authoritative book on godly disciplines, and lo and behold, it's called Disciplines of a Godly Man by Arcant Hughes. We've had him here in the studio. We we got to have lunch with him. He said one of the most profound things that that you often quote, Mark, when Pastor Bruce asked him that question during lunch. So I think that that's a good book that gets your soul stirred. Read read read Ravenhill, um, you know, read Tozer, uh, read Andrew Murray, read Packer, um, Knowing God, another one, transformational. Um, you know, there's so many, so many resources that that'll push you in that direction. But understand again that we're not seeking to acquire positional holiness. We have it. We have perfect righteousness because of what Jesus did. That sets us free to pursue the Lord. Why does a party animal party? Because he loves it. Right? Why why why does a football player play football? Because he loves it, right? So there's a connection there. Value impacts behavior, and so get to a place where, despite what you feel, put yourself in that atmosphere where you begin to value the Lord, and then as you value him, you you pursue him more, and it becomes this self-generating cycle.

SPEAKER_03 37:27

And your discipline is steeped in feeding on God's word. I mean, really feeding on it, memorizing it. I mean, to fail to feed on God's word is like standing on your own oxygen hose. It's just gonna be a matter of time before you wither and die. I was taught in a guy yesterday, and just um the same electrician who was listening to the word and just saying to him, Oh no, it wasn't him, it was some other guy I witnessed to, um, at the same time. I said, Read the word daily because someone wisely said, This book will keep me from sin, and sin will keep me from this book. And if you get into sin, which this guy had been into, I said the last thing you want to do is read God's word. You'd be like a criminal who doesn't want to go near the police. If you're okay with the police, never broken the law, you'll say, Hi, officer, have a great day. But if you've just broken that law, you're gonna avoid that policeman with all your energy. And it's exactly the same with God. You'll avoid his word if your heart gets into sin. And so you do yourself a great favor and discipline yourself to daily feed on that word.

Strange Fire Mysticism And True Worship

SPEAKER_02 38:30

Yeah, amen. Yeah, you know, Mark, in in Leviticus 10, it talks about Nadab and Abihu, of course, the sons of Aaron. And they offered strange fire to the Lord. Uh, that's that speaks of like an unauthorized and rebellious type of worship. And and why is it called strange fire? I've often wondered there.

SPEAKER_03 38:54

Yeah, it was something that is there what friendly fire? Well, there is friendly fire and strange fire.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

Both are dangerous.

SPEAKER_07 39:02

It's the first time they used propane.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

Yeah. Uh but but Mark, we need to, and that's the that's the danger, right? Like the things we hear people do, uh, youth groups that that are using Coke and marshmallows for communion elements, you know, just stuff that's like, wait a minute, man, God has given us a prescription coke. You don't mean cocaine. Worship, you mean Coca-Cola. Okay. Maybe some aren't snorting coke. It wouldn't surprise me. But but my my point in all that is like just to talk about the importance of caution in that regard, uh, not not to just go by what we feel like. One of the things that drives me nuts, and I'll see it in respectable Christian people's homes, Jesus Calling by Sarah Young, which is basically like things that Jesus is telling her. I mean, scary stuff. The shack. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 39:56

Um there's a good book out there called Strange Fire by John MacArthur. And he said, Mysticism bypasses the mind and it opens the door to deception. Colossians 2. See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, right? Not according to Christ. If it if it feels deep, if it if it feels spiritual, but it's not anchored in Scripture, let it go. It's okay to ask questions. I remember my dad had said when he grew up as an altar boy and he attended a Catholic uh school in Sioux City, Iowa, he was always filled with questions. And his questions were always getting his knuckles hit with a ruler. Like you're you're not allowed to ask questions, you're not allowed to question the authority. This is kind of where the the Reformation started by just asking questions. Yeah, you know what, what wait a minute. What where does it say that? Okay, you're talking about grace. I think that's great. You're talking about faith, I think that's great. Yeah, let's bring glory to Christ. Let's talk about scripture. You know, but wait a minute. Grace alone, faith alone, to the glory of God alone, is found in scripture alone, so that Christ alone can receive all the credit and the honor, you know, due to his name. We need to be careful when experience uh replaces uh truth. And we are just filling our mind with all kinds of stuff. I remember there was a gentleman that purchased uh for me two books by Pat Robertson. Remember Pat Robertson? Right. And I went to my pastor and I was I was actually off on the side, I was reading one of the books, and this was back in 1990. I was reading the book and he goes, Hey, what are you reading? And I go, Oh, it's an interesting book. And he goes, You know what? There's better books out there, there's better authors. Let me help you out with that. And then he came alongside. So instead of like, you know, coming down on me, he just kind of pointed me in a better direction. There's a better way to worship. Are you sure you're worshiping? Right? We talk about music at a church before a service as worship, but it's not all worship. I mean, worship is to him. So we can say, wash over me and cleanse me. That's a beautiful, beautiful lyric, beautiful song, but it's not worship. And and we need to do things like that, but it's just not worship.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_06 42:21

And this is why one of the reasons why I just love Shane and Shane, where they just say, hey, let's just kind of stick to the hymns. The brothers. Right. Yeah, the great brothers in Christ, right? So it's just, and hey, let me throw that plug out there. Shane and Shane has a daily worship devo that you have to sign up for. And I don't even know where you go to find it. It gets texted to me every morning at 7 a.m. I'm on the um Pacific Standard Time. But uh, worship is just bowing down to God, right? So we need to allow truth to form and then feelings to follow. What we tend to do is we let feelings lead us, and then hopefully we are found in the midst of truth. But truth is what sanctifies us, truth is what sets us free, truth is what we need. And as Gene Wilder said, if you're not going to tell me the truth, well, then don't even talk to me.

SPEAKER_07 43:07

You remind me of something which is really like how to read a book. Uh, I think that's an important discipline that we all ought to reflect on and learn. One, I think book reading is so vital and important to our critical thinking skills. It does something, like we know this through brain mapping that reading will do something to your long-term memory that watching a YouTube video, a clip, or even Googling information and reading off the internet simply doesn't do. So it is more powerful than all those other things. But reading is also best done as a conversation with the author. And when you have a conversation with the author, what I like to do is like as I'm reading a book, I'll take notes. If I love something, I like something, I'm compelled by something, I highlight it. If I disagree with the author, I will underlight it and underline it and write out like if I was sitting there, what kind of question would I? Have for them? What what need of clarification do I do I would I seek out? How do I disagree with this thing? And so I'm just saying this to like the younger individuals that are reading some of these books that are coming out that are nearest time bestsellers. There's a lot of good. But I would also tell you to have a conversation and to always go back to the Word of God, which is what we've been talking about. Because I love this. Like the money changers in the New Testament, they were trained to know counterfeits. And you can put a counterfeit coin on the table, the second they heard the sound, they would know whether it was fake or not. We ought to be counterfeit prepared to know what is gospel and what is not gospel. Certain disciplines are incredibly helpful, but there's a difference between pointing us back to our union with Christ over what he has done versus the ongoing pursuit of imitating Christ, which is important, but that's not gospel. And so to distinguish the difference between an imitation gospel and a real gospel is really important. And one way to do that is learning to have a conversation with books. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 45:19

Oh God. Have you ever contacted an author from I mean, I know you read a lot of books. Have you ever reached out to an author uh because you disagreed with something that they don't know I haven't?

SPEAKER_07 45:28

I've been compelled to reach out to the author because I really enjoyed a book, and then I don't. I probably shouldn't.

SPEAKER_06 45:32

You know, it's been said that uh the Bible is the only book where the author knows every one of its readers by name.

SPEAKER_07 45:38

Dang, that's good.

SPEAKER_03 45:39

And and he's always present when you're reading.

Evangelism Sin And The Divine Butler

SPEAKER_02 45:42

Ray, um, you always bring us back to there's a problem in a person's spiritual life if they don't have a desire to see the lost saved. And so all these things we're talking about that people are pursuing to have spiritual formation, isn't there a massive disconnect when they're not sharing the gospel? And how can they rouse themselves out of that? Like, how do we how do people prioritize evangelism when there's so many other things to do to try to grow spiritually? How do you make that chef?

SPEAKER_03 46:16

I think the scary thing is that we can read a whole book and not notice that there's no concern for the lost. It's all self, it's all within the church. And it's like being in a lifeboat and saying, hey, let's polish the brass and get it really shiny when people are drowning all around us. There should be a cry within the church, and we've mentioned it before, how that we've forgotten that hell exists. It it never, ever leaves me the thought of hell, and it drives me to speak. I think there's um Whitfield, he said uh it can it it horrifies me or something to go one mile with a stranger without bringing up the gospel. Whitfield said that. He didn't say it in the movie, but he did say it, it's a famous saying. So um, yeah, uh we should always be concerned. And the other thing I notice that's lacking in a lot of these modern teachings is a reference to sin, righteousness, and judgment to come, which the Holy Spirit convicts the world of. We forget those issues, and if you forget sin, then you'll begin leaving out repentance. And righteousness, you'll leave out the fear of God, and judgment to come, you'll leave out fleeing to Christ, and you end up with a false gospel.

SPEAKER_02 47:21

Yeah, you're right, Ray. I I mean, there's someone that I that I've been trying to minister to for for a while, um, and the this person is like talking about doing Bible studies and and always asking for prayer and always, and they're living in radical fornication. And they keep going back to, and oh yeah, I'm gonna and then right back, and it's like a total disconnect. Jesus has become their divine butler. Or you talk about that, the whole divine butler mindset. Can you elaborate on that just a little bit?

SPEAKER_03 47:55

Yeah, it's rooted in idolatry, and it really is you trace it back to the whole teaching of the prodigal son, where he goes back to his father, and instead of saying, um, make me your servant, he says, You be my servant. And it's because he's never seen his sin. And that's what happens with the world. Or the church, the modern church, doesn't show the prodigal son that his desires are for pig food, that he's unclean, even his righteous deeds were as filthy rags in the sight of God. And because he doesn't see his sin, he doesn't see his need to come in repentance. Father, I've sinned against heaven and in your sight, goes back to the father and says, Father, I've run out of money, you be my servant. And that's the prosper prosper, prosperity gospel.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 48:36

It's still still the self is still alive, it's never been crucified with Christ. And so self wants self satisfied.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

Yeah, and you know, it's um it's amazing when you think of what results from those self-pursuits of wanting a buzz from Jesus. Give me a buzz from Jesus. I mean, when you when you think about the nonchalant attitude that people come to the Lord with, it's evident the soil has not been tilled. They they don't understand why. And it how paradoxical is that? Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior, but they have no conception of like what it was that they needed to be saved from.

SPEAKER_06 49:18

There was no broken about uh, you know, he I give him a piece of my mind all the time. You know, I I I tell him we hang out, he he's my bro, yeah, you know, so sometimes I just you know I'm loose, you know, because we're friends. So I talk with him the way I talk with my buddies inside the locker room, you know, sort of thing. You've talked talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 49:37

You know, we we did, we actually one of the most responded to videos we've done, it was it was a short. It was from one of the podcasts where we talked about people giving God a piece of their mind, and you know, I screamed to God, I yelled to God. And and one comment after the other that came in just blew my mind. Oh, you're so shallow, you don't think God can handle what I you know, what I have to say to him and this and that. Just a total, total blindness to like the reality of what you're doing when you treat God like that. Of course you cry out to God, you pour your heart out. But when you think it's okay to cross the line and begin to cuss at God and and and ream God, like I don't know, man.

SPEAKER_06 50:17

Yeah, you I mean you wouldn't do it with uh the king of England.

SPEAKER_03 50:19

Yeah, right? Might. Because of what he's doing. I would. Um the uh Dion Moody, I think it was, his uh go go play with Fort Lightning, but don't trifle with God.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

Yeah, yeah. It's it's just an utter blindness as to who God is and who we are. But you know, Mark, you you cited earlier talking about this, yeah, talk about that, talk about this, holiness, righteousness, um, you know, prayer, worship, whatever. But but yeah, what what what is behind those? Like, do those terms align with the biblical intention for those realities? You know, Tucker Carlson recently said that there's a big secret that that leaders are trying to keep from you, religious leaders are trying to keep from you. I believe he said religious leaders, but someone's trying to keep it from you. That Muslims love Jesus. Rachel and I were talking about it last night. I'm like, wait, wait, wait, hold on a minute. So I, and I told Rachel, I said, I would love to do this with Tucker. And I'd love to take some guy, stick a name tag on him that says Tucker Carlson, and just record some scenario with him, right? Where he's just doing these crazy things and and you know, whatever. And then go, Tucker, man, I can't believe you know you did that and this and that. What do you mean? Right? And then like show was well done. Show him the video of this guy doing all this stuff wearing a Tucker Carlson name tag. Yeah. And what's he gonna say? Well, that's not me. Okay, but what we're calling him that, right? We've named him that, we've labeled him that. And that's and that's what it is. Muslims love Jesus. You mean the one that they say is not the son of God? Yeah, the one who who they say is not the second person of the triune Godhead. What do you mean they love Jesus? No, they don't, it's an other Jesus, yeah, and that's what's happening with worship. Wow, we're we're seeking God. Are you? We're praying, really? You're doing it for the sake of pursuing these mystical things. It's not because you're drawing near to God so that you can know him and in reverence and awe and and trembling fear worship him.

SPEAKER_03 52:32

Does that make sense, right? It certainly does.

SPEAKER_05 52:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:35

I was just thinking how often you can get caught up in worship and feel the presence of God, but you can feel that same presence in a rock concert. Yeah. Where people raise their hands and they're rocking back and forth, and there's just this feeling of joy. And it's not, it's not the Holy Spirit in your midst. It's just we're creatures of worship and we love love music and we're creatures of emotion. And we need to come back to sometimes just having silent worship, no noise. Um, I don't know, what's that Bible verse about? Be still in my life. Be still in no, I'm God. That's what I was thinking.

SPEAKER_06 53:13

Cease your striving and let me show you that I'm God.

SPEAKER_03 53:15

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_06 53:16

Yeah.

Substitutionary Atonement The Load Bearer

SPEAKER_07 53:18

Uh one of one of the authors recently actually went as far as to question uh substitutionary atonement. And I know that he walked back a little bit, but did he though? Therein lies, I'm being gracious, therein lies the challenge though, that you would even be potentially misunderstood. I started this whole thing out by saying the problem for me isn't what they say, it's what they don't say. And I think that we lose sight of that. Um, and and when I talk about substitution substitutionary atonement, I think it's important for us to recognize that there's these different atonement theories, and all of them are good and beautiful and true, though not complete, alone. Um, there's the victory of Christ. The substitutionary, I'm sorry, the victory of Christ is the atonement theory that Jesus has defeated sin and death and the powers of darkness. Yes and amen. There's the moral influence theory that the cross is the ultimate demonstration of love, that when we see the way in which God has loved us, sacrificing himself for us, that that will compel us towards an affection for him. Yes and amen. There's the ransom theory, the fact the fact that we are held captive by sin in slavery, and that he pays that ransom to free us. Yes and amen. But as I said recently, the substitutionary atonement, that that's like the walls in the house, those different theories. The substitutionary atonement is the load-bearing wall. Without it, none of the other atonement theories work. The fact that you um that there is this great transaction that that Jesus steps in on your behalf. You think about his prayer in Gethsemane, he's standing the night before the cross, and he's not like, God, take away the crown of thorns. He doesn't say, God, take away this cross from me. He didn't say, God, take away the whippings that are come, the the mockingness, the ridicule. What does he say? Take this cup from me. That's really important because in the Old Testament, the cup was a representation of the fullness of the wrath of God towards sinners. The thing that took Jesus to his knees in Gethsemane is knowing that he would be separated by from God, the fullness of the wrath of God would be poured out on him. Why? He was treated like a sinner so that we would be treated like saints. Union with Christ means that you are treated as sons and daughters because of what he has done. The beauty of the gospel is that it is finished. And my concern so often is that we will lose sight of that in our pursuit of these other things.

SPEAKER_02 56:17

Ray, that that thunderous saying from Jesus on the cross, it is finished. That that really sums it all up.

SPEAKER_03 56:28

Tetelesti. The correct pronunciation. That's right. Tetalesti or whatever. Yeah. Whether you went to Oxford or Cambridge. Yeah, it means it is finished. The debt has been paid. The law is satisfied. We have the smile of God. Death has been destroyed. It could not hold him, the Bible says. It was impossible for it to hold him. And I think the greatest sound, and I've often mentioned this before, ever heard in the universe was that first tiny heartbeat of the Son of God.

SPEAKER_05 56:57

Just foop-poop.

SPEAKER_03 57:00

Echoing throughout the whole of space because of its implications. The door of everlasting life has been opened for sinful humanity.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

Oh man, so beautiful.

Final Warnings Hope And Wrap Up

SPEAKER_02 57:12

Uh let me wrap wrap us up with this quote by David Wells. He said, The modern church is drifting toward a spirituality that is more about experience than truth, more about technique than theology, more about feeling than faith. This is not a deeper Christianity. It is a different one.

SPEAKER_03 57:32

Well, that was well spoken.

SPEAKER_02 57:34

Oh, well. Isn't that good, you guys? I mean, that basically sums it up. You know, we we have people in pursuit of things that have an appearance of spirituality, but but in reality it's not. It's a pursuit of really self-centered experience. It's a it's a pursuit of technique. Uh it's a pursuit of experience, and and and we need to wake up. And I think the bottom line in it all goes back to what we said, and I think R.C. Sproul put it best. He said, we are not called to go beyond the word of God in our pursuit of knowing Him. The Holy Spirit does not whisper new revelation into our ears apart from scripture. He works through the word, he inspired. When we seek God outside of his word, we are no longer seeking the true God, but a God of our own imagination. Ray, one of my favorite lines by you. When people are talking about what their God would do or wouldn't do, right? Yeah, you're right. He would never do that because he doesn't exist.

SPEAKER_03 58:39

Figment of the imagination.

SPEAKER_02 58:40

Figment of the imagination.

SPEAKER_03 58:42

Place of imagery.

SPEAKER_02 58:43

But we talk often about the unbeliever doing that. The believer can tend toward that. That's true. When we let emotions become prime, when we let self-seeking desires become prime, we begin to stray. It's like that airplane that's just a few degrees off on its course. Keep going that long in that direction, and you're gonna end up in a totally different place.

SPEAKER_03 59:07

Or a boat, Oscar.

SPEAKER_02 59:09

But the good news is that God loves us, that his doors are open wide to us as his children, that he calls us to come boldly to the throne of grace, that he will never leave us nor forsake us. He'll be with us always, even unto the end of the age. Like we talked about in the last podcast, nothing will separate us from his love, no one will snatch us out of his hand. And um, he is always faithful. Amen. There you have it, friends. All right. Don't forget why Muslims reject Christianity booklet. There's a good example of pursuing mystical experiences like Muhammad did and ending up in the wrong place. So check that out. Don't forget to like, subscribe, share, send us your thoughts and your questions. Because we're gonna have that new segment where we try to answer them to podcasts at livingwaters.com.

SPEAKER_01 59:59

Thank you for joining us, friends. We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast, where we have no idea what we're doing.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:08

Was that Strange Fire the way that I finished that?

SPEAKER_07 1:00:11

Well, you do is strange.