Ep. 391 - An Astronaut Stuck in Space: An Interview With Captain “Butch” Wilmore

Most people will never face a situation as extreme as being stranded in space, yet it reveals something profound about faith, trust, and God’s sovereignty. Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar sit down with Captain Barry Butch Wilmore to explore how faith in God anchors the soul even in the most extreme circumstances. The guys unpack how Butch’s time in space became a living testimony to trusting God’s providence. Even amid isolation, uncertainty, and physical challenges, Butch maintained confidence that the Lord was working all things according to His purpose. His experience becomes a powerful reminder that when people feel stuck in life, God is never absent and His plans are always unfolding.

The conversation explores the intersection of faith, science, and truth through Butch’s perspective as an astronaut. The guys discuss how scientific discovery does not contradict Scripture but instead reveals the order and design God established. Butch emphasizes that truth matters and that, just as physical laws govern space travel, God’s Word governs reality. In a culture that often separates science from faith, his testimony reinforces that the two are aligned under the authority of the Creator. This perspective grounds believers in confidence that Scripture is reliable and that God’s truth stands firm in every area. 

The discussion then turns to the personal realities of being in space and the spiritual lessons that come with it. While space offers wonder and awe, it also highlights the deep human need for relationship, fellowship, and worship. Butch shares that even with access to teaching and music, the absence of Christian community was deeply felt. The guys emphasize that God created people for connection, both with Him and with one another, and that spiritual growth cannot be sustained in isolation. His experience serves as a reminder that the local church is not optional but essential to the believer’s life and faith.

Finally, the guys reflect on God’s sovereignty, purpose, and the hope found in the gospel. Butch recounts moments of uncertainty during the mission, trusting that every detail was under God’s control. His perspective on trials is rooted in a high view of God, recognizing that suffering is never wasted and always serves a greater purpose. The guys highlight that true peace comes not from circumstances but from knowing Christ and resting in His finished work. In the end, Butch’s story points beyond space exploration to something far greater, a life anchored in God’s sovereignty, sustained by His Word, and lived for His glory.

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Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro

Transcript

Fear, Focus, And Scripture

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Was there ever a point where you really felt an intense fear? Like wow.

SPEAKER_01 0:04

What do the scriptures say? Says fear not. Because I am God. I am working on my plan and my purpose, his purposes. That's not to say that fear is not beneficial. There's situations where fear is very beneficial. I'm not sticking my hand in a fire as an example. I'm not doing that. But this in in a situation like with Starliner, during the time that I'm manual control, during the time we're losing all those thrusters, it it's detrimental. It's very detrimental. And I've learned that. That's what the stuck in space tells the story of so many situations throughout growing up professional growing up, growing up and growing up professionally as well, where the Lord showed and put me in situations where it was evident that fear, and I had some times that I was fearful, and it was a detriment to my performance because I have got to perform. It's a great responsibility that we all have in various aspects of our life, but certainly you're sitting in the left, the commander seat of a brand new spacecraft. There's a great deal of responsibility. And fear in the moment when my task is to maintain control so we can dock successfully. And so we will, you know, maybe won't perish because again, in the moment, I'm not sure. I don't know why we're losing these thrusters. I have no idea. That's not beneficial. So, no, there was no fear there. It was focus, and I learned that. Gunner Sergeant Tibertius Gerhart, United States Marine Corps, my drill instructor at Aviation Officer Candidate School when I first got in the military, and my coaches and the Bible, these are biblical principles of discipline, focus, um, determination, um, responsibility. All these are biblical principles that they taught me, not necessarily from scripture, but also in practice. But as I read it, I see it in scripture. And the Lord used all of that. So there was no fear. There was no fear on the space station when we were there.

SPEAKER_03 1:41

But easy, we love it when you do long, cheesy, pointless, annoying introductions.

Introducing Captain Butch Wilmore

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Nobody ever.

SPEAKER_03 1:52

I know you do, friends. But today we're going to skip that. I know you're all disappointed. Why are you two whispering? I just apologized. Under your breath, apology to our friends. Yeah, we're gonna skip all that today, friends. Um, we got something else going on, but I will maintain one element. Well, maybe two, but for the outset, one. Um I'm going to highlight our um hesitation.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

The umbrella. He'll remember me eventually.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

Our radically revolutionary resource. And that is stuck in space and astronauts hope through the unexpected. Now, I'll tell you what my greatest dream is. It's to meet an astronaut. In fact, to be able to have the author of this book on here one day. His name is Captain Barry Butch Wilmore. That's probably a long shot, but maybe one day it will be possible. Ray, why did you look like Bonnet?

SPEAKER_04 2:50

Well, it's a miracle. You especially look like Bonnet with your cool shiny jacket today.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

Yeah. Yeah. Yes, friends. Yes. Miracles. Singing to me. Oh, Oscar singing. Well, I'm gonna sing a song about it.

SPEAKER_04 3:07

No, you said there'd be no silliness.

SPEAKER_03 3:09

Did I? Yeah. I didn't say that. Well, it sounded like that to me.

SPEAKER_04 3:12

We interpret it as that. I took it around.

SPEAKER_03 3:15

Friends, that is not Oscar split personality you hear laughing. It is indeed a reality we have with us today, Captain Barry Butch.

unknown 3:24

Wilmore.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

Barry.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

What a pleasure to be with you. It took a long time to get to with a hey more butch.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

He's heard this before through speakers. Now he has to sit and be tortured live. I think torture, though, really, Butch, would be uh the two weeks you had to spend with Ken Ham and me in Australia. That sounds terrible.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

It was sweet torture.

SPEAKER_03 3:46

Yeah. Sweet. Well, you only had you only had two weeks of Ken Ham. I had a whole month of Ken Ham in Australia.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Yeah, well, that we were on the bottom side of the earth, so all the blood was running to our heads. So it was a mandate.

SPEAKER_03 3:59

The flat earth, though. Come on. Well, yeah, yeah. But what a blessing to have you, man. Really. This is uh this is a delight for us. I'm gonna pull the veil back on Oscar. He went up to my office a little bit ago, like a little girl jumping up and down. In fact, he said this one. I think this is the most exciting interview we've ever done. We'll see. We'll see.

SPEAKER_04 4:20

We apologize to all our previous guests. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 4:24

I mean local theologians whatever.

SPEAKER_04 4:27

We left Butch stuck in the green room for 30 minutes. Oh, that's right. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 4:32

Well, he was the early man. I knew he'd be early. I knew it.

SPEAKER_04 4:35

I said the same thing to him, didn't I?

SPEAKER_00 4:36

As his military man, he'll be early. Because he's always been late coming back.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Yeah, you get early and you're you get back when you can.

SPEAKER_03 4:43

That's right. Yeah, well, man, what a what a delight. You know, I had the privilege of meeting you, as I mentioned, on the trip to Australia. Right. Ken Ham came up with this hare-brained idea. A whole month, you know, Lalo Gunther, he's insane. Started out with like, I think, a couple weeks, then it became three, then three and a half, then four.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

I'm like, what? He's God's premier go-getter, that Lala is.

SPEAKER_03 5:01

For sure. But I'm so glad that uh that Ken brought you along. I think that's what made me go, actually, when he said Butch Wellmore's joining us. But

Why “Stuck In Space” Matters

SPEAKER_03 5:10

that was that was an epic journey. It was. Uh, but nothing compared to the epic journey that you made to the space station.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Yeah, the Lord's hand is in all things, and he's his hand is in it, stuck in space. I didn't pick the title. I learned that the publisher picks the title of a book. So the publisher picked the title, but uh it's it's applicable, but you know, people feel stuck in many situations in their lives, and so there's parallels throughout the book about this stuck experience and experience that all people feel like I said in various situations.

SPEAKER_04 5:40

So do you think it was a takeoff of Lost in Space, the television program? A little bit, 300 years ago. Yeah, you were never lost in space. We were not lost. You were found.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

We were found, but uh stuck in many definitions of the world that we were stuck, but the but ultimately, no one's ever stuck. I mean, we believe we understand the Lord is working out his plan and his purpose, he is sovereign for his glory and our ultimate good. And so if you are in a situation where you might be defined as stuck, you know the Lord's at work. Yeah, and he's placed you there.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

Amen. Well, we definitely want to hear more about that. I know our people love to get encouraged, exhorted, uh, stirred. And you know, we we talk about trials and struggles and challenges in life, but to have been where you were in that confined space, how long was it? Ten months, was it? It just shy ten months, yeah. Oh, I thought it was nine months.

SPEAKER_04 6:29

Nine and a half my pregnancy joke going up the door.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

That's I've done over 390 episodes of this. Oh my goodness. You feel stuck.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Stuck in this studio.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

Yeah, so so we we really we definitely want to get into that and hear all about that. Talk about the book, your experiences. But before we get to that, uh, one element that we will keep today is a cool, classy comment. Actually, this is a question. And we were gonna ask this question on a previous podcast episode, but Ray said, no, let's hold it for when Butch is here. And so I'm gonna read it and then uh I'll I'll let Ray take over because I know he wants to hit on some things and then ask you some questions about it too.

Question: Overpopulation Without The Fall

SPEAKER_03 7:14

So this is from Melanie Flanagan. I'm a born-again Christian and an avid listener of your podcast. I've also used a great many of your resources and tracts witnessing. I'm reaching out to your ministry with a question. Hopefully, you all can answer it or direct me to someone who may have the answer. I've come across uh a thought that to me is very perplexing. I haven't seen it addressed in any conversation or debate between creationists and evolutionists. The thought is this the biblical view is that death and decay come about as a consequence of the fall. My question is: if man had not fallen and sin had not entered the world, there would be no death, no decay, just an endless stream of humans and animal life that would be constantly reproducing in a very short time. The earth would be jam-packed with billions of humans and animals, with new humans and new animals eating the entering the world, but never leaving me, uh, would have uh uh run out of space a long time ago. How would that work? Would God have had to stop all reproduction? God commanded us to be fruitful and multiply, but what was God's plan for the eventual overpopulation that would result? I don't have an answer for that. Would love to hear your opinions on this. Thank you for your ministry, Melanie Flanagan.

SPEAKER_04 8:31

I love that question. It reminds me of when the Sarac uh Saraces, the Fadge, uh Sadducees, the Fadges. Evangelistes came. New definitions here. Someone's gonna make up new words. They came to Jesus and said, This woman had seven husbands that died. That woman needs to be investigated. Seven husbands that died? She killed them off, obviously. Um and Jesus had a wonderful answer when when whose husband will she be in heaven, or whose wife will she be in heaven? He said, You neither know the power of God nor the scriptures. And it reminded me, and when I was first saved, I was saved on a Monday night, or Sunday night through Monday morning, and a guy came around to our house on the Wednesday, I didn't even know him, he just stepped in my door holding a Bible, and he wanted to start a Bible study in our home. He was friends with the guy that led me to the Lord. And during the Bible study, the first Bible study, he turned to me and says, Ray, do you believe in heaven? And I said, No, Disney. Just can't exist. I'll tell you why. And I explained why, with Sadesty reasoning, why heaven couldn't exist. This man marries a beautiful girl, they're both 20, she dies at 20, he stays on earth till he's 106, goes up to heaven and says, Hi, babe. She's gonna say, Who are you? I said, it just can't work. And I I had that understanding because I neither knew the power of God nor the scriptures. And with God, nothing shall be impossible. There's plenty of room on this earth, even a fallen creation. Um, the overpopulation thing is so understated. There's no overpopulation. The earth is big, and if the curse came off the earth, which is going to come off the earth, you can fit literally trillions of people on this earth. And if God made the whole of the universe like the Garden of Eden and gave us Philip's transport, you know what Philip's transport is? Philip was transported to Ethiopian Unit. He was just reading this morning. Beam me up, yeah. And if we were transported, all these planets that were like the Garden of Eden, there's plenty of room. So with God, nothing shall be impossible. And there's a lot of a lot of things that could perplex me that I can't understand. I can't understand how my remote works with with a television. There's no wires, my garage door open and closes by itself. Can't understand that. There's a lot of things I can't understand about creation. How much more could I not understand the mind of God who creates an ant that raises a family, that procreates, that goes to sleep at night and has food and works. How could I work out how God could make a brain like that and an ant to do all that? So with God, nothing is impossible. You just lift yourself up by faith. Don't need to be perplexed. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 11:02

And Ray, imagine more dogs on the earth. You love that thought.

SPEAKER_04 11:05

Wonderful.

SPEAKER_03 11:06

Dogs are better than people.

SPEAKER_04 11:07

I like dogs. Yes, they're nice.

SPEAKER_03 11:09

Yes. Yeah, but you know, that is a really

Awe In Space And God

SPEAKER_03 11:14

good question. And I was just reflecting on one of the astronauts that that was just up in space, and he he made the comment he's not religious. Man, he was, yeah, what was the name? It was the Captain. Reed Weisman. Reed Weisman.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Yeah, I spent I spent two months in space with him several years ago. My first spacewalk, we did it together.

SPEAKER_03 11:34

Wow. But you know that, you know the the Brian Regan joke, I walked on the moon. Yeah, you ever heard that? You ever heard that? Um you would remember it if you heard it. He talks about he talks about how you know you go to parties and you have the me monster. I walked on the moon.

SPEAKER_04 11:52

No one can talk that.

SPEAKER_03 11:54

He was in the space station. Oh, that's so cool, man.

SPEAKER_04 11:58

So you think you planted seed in his heart? Do you think that's fruition?

SPEAKER_01 12:02

I I pray that we did. I mean, we're always about that. If you're a believer, you're all about you know sowing seed. Well, he was he was in tears when he was talking. Yeah, he was. I just pray that the Lord will continue. I hope I can have the opportunity to have a dialogue with him. Yeah. The Lord will orchestrate that as well. Well, you've got to realize, here's put put it put in this perspective. What if you looked at in the night sky every every night of your life? You've looked at the moon. It's there, right? And now all of a sudden, not all of a sudden, but you launch 18. 8.8 million pounds of thrust, hurls you into the heavens, and you get on a trajectory. Well, now that moon that is so far away is getting bigger and larger and larger in the wind in the windscreen. Think about that. That's scary. And the the earth is getting smaller and smaller and smaller until that moon fills up your windscreen to where you see minute details of craters. And you can see the topography on the moon. Not just distant, kind of fuzzy, but you're seeing details. And uh, and then you realize there's you're there's there in the history of human, of humankind, there's been they are 27, 28, 29, and number 30 of the people that have been there to that that location. And it's been 54 years. And you think about the emotions that would well up in you just from that, and you're just thinking, wow. And and and I know there's many times in my life, including times in space, where the thought went through my mind, how did I get here? Ultimately, I know the answer because I know the scriptures. The Lord gave me desire of my heart. And if somebody says they're not a believer, I'm not religious, meaning I'm not a believer in Jesus Christ, they are having emotions and feelings that they've never experienced. And then they probably have similar questions. I'm not putting trying to put words in his in his in his mouth, in Reed's mouth, but you know, how did I get here? And and and it just magnifies and glorifies a creator God that has given you a desire of your heart like only 30 people in human history have ever had. And you put all that in perspective about the emotions and all of that, and yeah, some you're gonna tear up when you when you're when you're confronted with an individual or or or substance that surrounds the scriptures, which is I think it was the chaplain that walked in and had the cross on his on his, as I heard it mentioned, had a cross on his on his lapel, um, and it just caused him to tear up because he's struck with all this emotion. And I just pray the Lord uses that, not just in him and others, to draw them to himself. And ultimately it takes the scriptures, though, right? I mean, that's general revelation. We can all see the we're responsible, Romans 1, but you have to have special special revelation, the word itself, to draw you to the knowledge and understanding of Jesus Christ as Lord. And that's what we pray for.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

My thought process went to the difference between his response and I believe the Russian astronaut's name was Yuri Gagorin. Guy went up to space, came back, and said, I've been up there and there is no God.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

I didn't see God, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

He in the 1940s, it was the one that C.S. Lewis responded to. Uh, he he did a whole essay on it. So I just think it's fascinating to see the different response from two different people, right? One person comes back with a sense of awe and wonder, even if it's not claiming Lord as Jesus as Lord and Savior. And another one goes up there with what perceived we perceive to be a hardened heart, and go, yep, I've been this space, there is no God. And so I think it's it's also fascinating that God, as you put it, reveals Himself generally to all of us, but one heart goes hard and the other heart goes soft.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Yeah, yeah. Very true. And that's the that's the power of the Holy Spirit, right? Amen. Uh Ephesians 2. We're all dead in our trespasses and sin. But verse 4, but God, he's the one that makes us alive.

SPEAKER_04 15:33

If he had come back to the Soviet Union and said, Praise the Lord, that would have killed them. That's true. That's true. Yeah, especially. There's the practical aspect to that too.

SPEAKER_03 15:40

Great. How would he have said praise the Lord if he said it as a Russian in English? How would he have said it?

SPEAKER_04 15:47

Praise the Lord.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

Every accent right does ends up being Indian. I can't help it. Praise the Lord.

SPEAKER_05 15:54

I am an Russian.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

You mentioned uh you used the amount of power and force. It's funny that you brought that up because when I was watching the Artemis II launch, you see, I think it was Jeremy like in the background. You can see this huge smile come across his face as they're launching into space, which is like one of my questions

What Launch Feels Like

SPEAKER_02 16:13

to you. What's it like sitting on a rocket being thrown into space?

SPEAKER_01 16:19

It's not easy to put in words. In Jeremy's case, think about Jeremy. Jeremy is uh one of the most amazing guys on the planet, or off the planet if he's off the planet. He's a really unique guy. Um, he was selected in 2009 by the Canadian, you know, Canadian Space Agency as an astronaut, has never flown. So 17 years he's been in the astronaut, an astronaut, and he's done his job, he's done it well, he never complained. I mean, think about 17 years before you get your first opportunity. Just because of international agreements and all of that, it just never worked out. And to get to go on this mission, um, the first international astronaut to go actually to the location, you know, the vicinity of the moon, you're absolutely going to have a huge smile on your face when those rockets launch off or light off. Um, yeah, so laying on your back, you realize there's nobody else in the universe that's doing this at that moment. And uh again, I think my understanding, Jeremy knows the Lord, and you get that appreciation for Almighty God, gives you the opportunity to lay on your back and eight, you know, in case of the space shuttle, I launched on 7.7 million pounds of thrust. Uh, the first launch I had. 7.7 million pounds of thrust for the space shuttle. That means that means that means you have more thrust than you weigh. The space shuttle weighed about 4.4 million pounds, all completely fueled. So you've got to have more thrust than you weigh, or you're not going very far. So your brain's gonna go to the back of your scalp. Yeah, it's got to push you right forward, exactly. And the G forces and just experiencing it all, and it's rumbling, it's shaking. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

How many G forces is it?

SPEAKER_01 17:49

You get up to about, it depends on the spacecraft, but roughly about three G's on launch, because you've got to go through, you've got to go through the atmosphere in the supersonic. You transition from slower than the speed of sound travels in air to faster. So you transition through that, and that's maximum aerodynamic pressure. So the spacecraft has to be stressed for all of that. I mean, it's not just you know, you launch and you put a lot of thrust and you've got to be stressed for all these different different external forces acting against you. And as you go through that and then you continue and you're accelerating, right? The G force comes from the continual acceleration. It just builds, builds, builds, builds until you get to about three G's. Most launch space spacecraft are stressed for about three to three and a half Gs. The force of gravity. So the engines actually start to throttle back as because you're accelerating, you get to three G's, the engines start to throttle back less thrust to keep you at three G's until they run out of propellant, the first stage goes away, and then the second stage lights off, and you keep going. So, anyway, that's kind of the process.

SPEAKER_03 18:45

What blows my mind is how theory gets tested to see if it's reality, in the sense that there was the first launch. There was a time where you know no one had gone that far up into space, but they theorized, and because of understanding and knowledge and science, this is how it's gonna go, and here's what's gonna happen, here's why they can survive it. And then there were there were the guinea pigs, the first people that actually did that, paved the way, added to the repository of knowledge that enabled us to do that. And that blows

Physics, Truth, And The Bible

SPEAKER_03 19:16

my mind.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Like yeah, you bring up a great point, the the physics. So we have great imaginations, the Lord gave us imaginations, um, amazing imaginations, and we can imagine many different things, but we're limited in our capability of what we can do by physics. And this is a great analogy for physical science and theoretical science and the Bible. So physics is the easiest analogy is what's two plus two?

unknown 19:41

Four.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

It's four. Thanks, Matt. Good job. That sounds about that's why he's on the podcast. Hold on, hold on. Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's the limit of Mark's knowledge. Well, limit is it ever not for? It's always for. It's always for. Unless you live in some realm of where some people live, where if you want it to be not for, you can. But truth matters. Truth matters. So it's always for, that's physics. So take that. Physics is what allows us to do these things, but you can only go as far as physics, our understanding allows us. Um but the theory, we have theories, imaginations, and we can do many things. We can transport people from one place to another, you know, in Star Trek and other other TV programs or or movies, but that's the theory. You know, theory, theoretical science includes theory, hypothesis, assumption in the science. Physics is law. You can only do this. Like the Bible, for instance. There is nothing in Scripture except miracles that contradicts physics because the Bible's absolutely true. Physics is absolutely true. Tupaclu is only four. But there are many things in scripture that contradicts theoretical science because it incorporates theory, hypothesis, assumptions into the science. So we can only do what we can do if physics allows it. Just like God's word is absolutely true and it's backed by physics, it's not a science book, but where it speaks to science, it's absolutely true because the scriptures are absolutely true. And so that analogy that you just brought up actually plays out in the truth of God's word as well. Does that make sense? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

Oh, fully, yes, brother. Oh, completely.

SPEAKER_02 21:19

We understand. Yeah, so two plus two is four.

SPEAKER_03 21:23

You know, Barry, it's interesting because I was I was thinking about how everything that you just described, in a sense, cannot work in terms of its connection with progress without memory. I was at the car wash the other day and waiting for my car, and I I thought to myself, if I didn't have memory, I would never, I would never find my car. I wouldn't know what when they're waving their hand and they're ready. I would never know where to go. You just said that. Oh no. Memory is gone. But you know what I'm saying? Like everything, I would I wouldn't know you if I we went to Australia together for two weeks. I'd see you today. I wouldn't know who in the world you are. I mean, and you think of like what? Is that like memory, the ability to store information and then to recall it? Just such a mind-blowing element of God's creation.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

It is indeed. I think about that often as well. The greatness of God in all aspects, every like you mentioned, the ant. Oh my, the greatness of God in the ant, the just construction of an ant in its brain. And then you think about our brain. And I've thought about that very often, even recently, about how wonderful our memories are, that I can go anywhere I want in my mind. I can go back to past events in my mind and visualize that. It is a gift. It is a blessing of God. And we don't, we I hope we don't take these things for granted. We need to realize, and I'm going to say the verse now, uh, Ray. John 3 27. Yes. John 3.27, one of my favorites. Yes. Um, a person cannot receive even one thing unless it's given to him from heaven. Amen. Not one thing. So our memories, everything, the air we breathe, everything, our interaction, two plus two is four to know that and understand that. We can't we can't fathom any of this. We can't have the recall that the guy's waving us for our call. Yeah, I got to go.

SPEAKER_04 23:04

I got a lot of strange question

Gravity, Church, And Coming Home

SPEAKER_04 23:06

for you. Um I'm I'm a klutz. I knock over things all the time. Easy can testify. Yes. Absolutely. Absolute klutz. But what I say to my wife is whenever I knock anything over, spill the milk, whatever, I just said gravity again. It's gravity. It's not my fault. It's gravity. So the question is, do you like gravity?

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Or would you gravity is your friend sitting here at the table because your water doesn't float out of your cup. But when you come back from space. How did the Lord design us? Are we are we not designed as relational beings? I mean, we are. To love, interact, help one another. Um, I can't do much uh for you from space as far as say we're church members. We go to church together, and our part of our man, we come to church, that's the Lord's church, he's he's the one entity he says he will bless. And so we have the church because we need it. That's why the Lord gave it to us. We need it for worship, we need it for learning, we need it for interaction. We need to hear the word preached from the pulpit and to collectively coming together. Baptism, the one joins the many, Lord's table, the many to come together as one. We need that. It's hard to do that from space. And I did it from space. I tied into we live stream our services, another church where I grew up in Mount Juliet. I tied in, I sang. I'm, you know, I didn't have a crew quarters on the space station. There was they were all taken. You know, crew quarters, I described as a large, about like a large coffin. Uh you can close the door and have privacy, a little computer, you know, you sleep there, you float there. I didn't have that the first four and a half months because they were all taken. I just in the corner of a module, floating in the corner of a module, was where I was my home. Uh and so at Sunday. Yeah, Sunday mornings, maybe some of you experience this. Yeah. But anyway, on Sunday mornings, I'd tie in, I'd have my headphones on, and I'd I'm singing with my church. I'm interacting with my church, I'm getting fed the word of God, but I'm not fellowshipping with them. And that is a lack that's missing. We are relational beings. Gravity is the place to be because that's where your church family is, your individuals are, your family is. And go on a trip and here and there and go and experience and help the exploration of space, and which all glorifies God. It's a glory to God, all the things that we do. I see a rocket launch, I see the glory of God because He's given us the ability to understand it and do it. I don't I don't see man's ingenuity, though he's using man to make that, obviously. But just like the scriptures, men actually wrote it, but it is inspired by God. Everything we have, everything we see, everything we do. A person cannot receive even one thing unless it comes to him from heaven. And that's kind of the mindset. How does gravity feel to you after 10 minutes? Gravity is your friend right now. Like I said, you've got to have gravity to have those relational relationships. But when you come back from space, oh wow, it is not your friend. It is difficult because you're feeling like you're being crushed. Well, yes, you're your body your body's not used to holding up your structure. Yeah. Right? And you we work out. I worked out two and a half hours a day, every single day, never took a day off. The whole time, the whole 10 months almost we were up there. But coming back, there's little muscles like in your back that you just can't work out well. Now those muscles have to function, they have to hold up your structure and they go lit and they get dense. And getting them used to gravity and used to and getting them you know back accustomed, it just takes time. So that's one of the one of the transition phases. Speaking of gravity, he's also a time traveler.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

I looked it up. You are point you aged 0.005 milliseconds slower than the rest of us.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

You're saying it because of how young I look. That's what it is. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 26:24

Well, uh, Butch, I know the guys have questions for you, and and I want to go back to the to the beginning, but but before that, I I did want to ask this

NASA Culture And Faith At Work

SPEAKER_03 26:31

question. I was just in Houston, and uh my wife and I were speaking at a marriage conference there for University Baptist Church. And you know this because I sent you a picture. I was with your friend Bob Hines. Bob Hines, yeah. The farmer you called them. Right, right. That's his that's it.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

He's an Air Force guy, that's his call sign. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:47

And he was up in the space station as well. And, you know, being out there, and by the way, uh, shout out to our good friends Reagan and Tori Davis, who brought us out there. Love you guys, they're big listeners of the podcast. But, you know, in Houston, you get this sense of highbrow kind of intellectual sort of uh thinking because it it's I mean, that's the headquarters for NASA. It's Space City. Yeah, Space City. I mean, my hotel was right by you know the space station there, not space station. We know what you mean, Disney. Uh the Space Center. Uh and you know, we we were there, we did some touring the last time we were out there, and I was speaking at the church. But yeah, but there is this atmosphere of intellectualism that that seems to push God out. I'm just perplexed by that. Because like I'm blown away whenever I see a doctor that, especially like a labor and delivery doctor, that's seeing babies being birthed. Like, how do you relegate that to random processes, right? So but but you see that they're pushing, they're pushing God out. How has it been for you as a believer to be in that atmosphere, right? Because there's this perception science is kind of opposed to faith and all that. So, how has that been for you?

SPEAKER_01 28:13

It has not affected me negatively because I have stayed in the scriptures, I've stayed in my local church, I've continued to grow, try to grow spiritually. So personally, does it bring me, you know, bad character corrupts good corrupts, bad company corrupts good character, right? So, not to be involved in that and have it take me astray. I've stayed strong in the word only because uh of the Lord drawing me to it. And also that is the that is the foundation for understanding of all things. And so I don't think it's been a detriment to me because of that, not because of me, but because of the Lord drawing me to himself and incorporated around my church. Um, but you do get that sense, and it's so shocking and surprising to me, knowing the scripture, having the biblical worldview because it's truth. You say we say biblical worldview, but really it's a world worldview based on truth, absolute truth. Where can you find absolute truth? The only place you can find it is in God's Word. So it's really a worldview. Instead I don't like to say biblical worldview, I but because it's a worldview based on truth, absolute truth. So with that in mind, um, and that understanding, it's it's shocking to me that the world, Satan, has got us to the point to where science, who, who, who instituted science? Who is the creator of science? Who is the foundation of science? It's all it's our creator God. But now deception has got it to the point where science and God, his word, are not compatible. Isn't that sad? Isn't that shocking? But that's the way of the world. And that's why things like our churches, the pod, this podcast, it beams out the truth because we're basing everything we discuss on God's word of truth, the only place absolute truth resides, that that's a fallacy. That is deception, that is a lie. There is no difference, like I said earlier. Every single thing in God's word is absolutely true. It doesn't conflict with science, with the exception of miracles, because God does work miraculously. We see it in his word. Creation was a miracle. You can't go back and prove it. It's a miracle. You can't prove it scientifically because you can't repeat it. Um so anyway, with all that said, it's very sad. We as believers, I'm thankful for this podcast, this platform, to say God's word and uh God and science are compatible because he's the instigator of it all.

SPEAKER_04 30:28

Does NASA put any restrictions on what you s what you can say from space about God?

SPEAKER_01 30:33

They have never had a class and sit down and say, You can't say this, you can't say this, you can't say this. Now, as a believer, I never use my position to espouse my personal belief and understanding unless I get asked a specific question. And if I'm giving getting if I'm asked a specific question, I give the answer. For instance, I probably wouldn't be sitting here right now, but the Lord and his providence are orchestrated during one of our press conferences about three months into our mission, we had a press conference, and one of the individuals, we're just staring into a camera, kind of like now, we don't see the the reporters that are across the nation. I think it was a guy from out here in California. And he asked me, he said, Captain Wilmore, what is your number one biggest takeaway from all of this? And my answer, of course, it's you know, a truth, a worldview based on truth, like I said. I'm like, I am content. And the reason I'm content is because I know that my Lord is working out his plan and his purpose, purposes for his glory and our ultimate good if we will believe. And I said, that's the reason I'm content. And I I didn't go into theology of content. I didn't talk about Paul, how he'd gotten, you know, whipped 40 lashes minus one five times, beaten with a rod three times, shipwrecked three times, stoned and left for dead, you know, cold and without enough clothing at night, all that. And in Philippians chapter 4, he says, through it all, I'm content. Why was he content? Not like give me another lash. Yeah. He's content because he knew he was right exactly where the Lord would have him be. In all those difficult situations, he's content because he, everything about his life, everything about him, is in line or trying to be in line with the Lord's will. And that's what believers do. I'm no different from any other believer. So in any situation, I'm content. Doesn't mean that things are I like it, give me another lash, Paul wasn't saying. You know, maybe stay in space another 10 months. I'm whatever. But uh in the situation, I'm content because I know he's working out his plan and his purposes. Wait, was there And that anyway, that real quick, that that reporter asked that question. And then every single press conference after that, somebody else asked the same question, a similar question. Somebody else said a faith-based question every single time since then. I love it, man. And the Lord's orchestrating, you know, it's it's for snowballing

Starliner Thruster Failures And Docking

SPEAKER_01 32:40

from there.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

Well, was there a point where you're thinking, am I making it back? Or was there a point thinking I may be up here for a couple years?

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Um you gotta realize how it played out. Yeah. To answer that question, if you want me to do that, I'll tell you. Take us back. I'll take you back. Here we are, 6th of June. 5th of June, we launched. We it's a test flight. It's the first, first crewed flight of the spacecraft. It's only the sixth, first crewed flight of a spacecraft in the history of human spaceflight with NASA. Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, um, Space Shuttle, the SpaceX Dragon, and then us. We're on the sixth first flight. So it's a test flight. So we launched the first day, it goes great. That all of our tests, we had numerous tests, we're doing manual control, all these different things as we're trekking towards and catching up with the space station. Uh everything went wonderfully well. And then the day that we're we're rendezvous and docking is when we had our problems. So we lost, um, just to summarize, we have eight thrusters, they're orthogonal, they're they're top and bottom, two, two of them fire aft, two and two of them here fire aft on the port and starboard side. You've got dog houses, we call them, seven thrusters at each location, 28 total that point different directions to give you attitude and translation. Ray wants to ask what kind of dogs did you guys have up there? Yeah, exactly. That's not what he meant. Of those seven at each location, two point aft. We wound up losing five of our eight aft-pointing thrusters. And so with those losses, we lost the ability to fully control the spacecraft. So at that point, you're thinking here's what I'm thinking. Here's what I'm thinking. We have to dock the space station. Space station is safe, is safety. If we can dock, we'll be safe. If we don't dock, the situation being what it was, because we lost the ability to fully control the spacecraft. And I'm manual control, and I'm trying to control a spacecraft that is very difficult to control manually.

SPEAKER_03 34:35

Were you the captain on this? I was I was the commander, yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

There's only two of us, I'm in the left front seat, like I said, a test flight. So it's very difficult to control, so I'm maintaining control. There were different phases of the flight. Again, the sovereignty of God's at play here, where the software would say, based on certain failures, you're gonna leave. You're gonna abort the rendezvous and you're gonna leave the vicinity of the station, which we did not want to happen. But the Lord, as these failures happened, orchestrated such that that software would not have been in play at the point. If that happened earlier, lost the thruster earlier, we'd have left. But because of when we lost them, we never, we never automatically departed the space station. That's the sovereignty again.

SPEAKER_02 35:12

And then, real quick, just so the reason why you say that that changes everything, because then time now there's only amount of time that you guys have on that small smaller spacecraft, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Yeah, getting there. So we lose those problems, we have those problems. I'm thinking we have to dock. If we don't dock, I don't know what our options are. I don't uh in this situation, it would be very difficult to maybe impossible to do a deorbit burn and return to Earth. That's why it's imperative that we dock. And then the next thing we thought, which brings me to the finally the answer to your question, if we do dock, I don't see us coming back on this spacecraft. So I I knew it before we ever docked. Because I know I've been doing this for 24 years at the time. I know how difficult it is to say to find out what happened and then figure out why it happened. You can't go out on a spacewalk and inspect the hardware, the thrusters, they're not built that way. You can't do that. So I know that's you can't do that. So to figure out what happened, even before we docked, to where we would feel safe enough to crawl back in, if we were able to get docked, remember, we got to dock first. But that went through my mind. If we do, there's a slim chance of us coming back. So I knew it from the beginning. And so that happened in early June. The decision that we weren't coming back on Starliner was not made for three months later. I knew it before we ever got docked. I didn't tell my family until about a month. So this was June and July. I finally told my my wife we we could have a video call. And I finally said, you know, ladies, my two daughters, my wife, I said, I don't think we're coming back on this spacecraft. And uh and the earliest they will be able to get us back, just for sequencing, won't be until 2025, which was six months away at that point. So I knew it early. I finally told them that there were some tears because you know, we had plans. My youngest daughter was senior at high school. I was gonna miss it. Last, you know, volleyball season, just life things that you want to be a part of, you're not gonna be able to. Uh, but through it all, because we've taught our girls the truth of God's word, you know, we're encouraging. We got it, we understand the Lord's at work, and that brings contentment, absolute contentment, because ultimately we have eternal hope, regardless of what happens. Did you share your thoughts with the fellow astronauts that you a couple of them I did? Yeah, I sure did. Yeah, and I just pray the Lord will use it eventually to transform them.

SPEAKER_03 37:25

That's that's insane. I I'm just thinking of the trials we go through as people. You know, my car died on the side of the road today.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Like I got stuck behind a train.

SPEAKER_03 37:38

My tire went flat. Like you're thinking, man, I'm I don't know when I'm coming back home, right? I mean, you're what, is it 250 miles up in space, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:48

Traveling 17,500 miles an hour, five miles a second as you orbit the planet.

Provision In Orbit: Food And Safety

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:53

Yeah. And so did you wonder if you're gonna run out of food?

SPEAKER_01 37:58

Yeah, you took a lot of people. You want another story about the Lord's providence? The two or so years before I before we got there, let's just call them skinny astronauts. They didn't eat a whole lot. So we get a package of food, different, like a vegetable package and a meat package, and you have to, you can't get a new vegetable package for seven days. You can't get a new meat package for four days. So when those seven or four days are done, if there's anything left, they wanted to get the stuff that they like, so they would put it in a big blue bag as trash. So there were four of these bags that had full of food, various types of food, um, four and a half bags. And so I just parsed them out one day and put them back in their categories, and that's really what I ate for the first four and a half months. So because of that, there was plenty of food.

SPEAKER_05 38:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

Not then we also plan, they plan ahead for four-month contingency, but we had more than four-month contingency because of all this extra food. Again, the providence of the Lord provides it.

SPEAKER_04 38:49

You can buy astronaut food online. Is that genuine stuff?

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Probably not. Yeah.

unknown 38:55

No.

SPEAKER_03 38:56

Mark, I see over there laughing and shaking your hands. Well, hit them. Go ahead, hit them on the question.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

I remember talking to um Jeff Williams, and I had said, Hey, I got I got two questions for you. Uh, is the world flat and did we land on the moon? And he said, uh he goes, yes. So he's he now starts, he started one of his sermons with that. And he said, Yes, uh, we did land on the moon, and no, the world is not flat. And the people just erupt crazy. Um looking back on the earth and seeing what the earth looks like and all of the conspiracy theories and all the craziness and stuff that goes out there. I'm sure there's a point you just get past all that and you just enter into a place of worship.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Amen.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

That we're we're just a speck. How do you word it, easy? We're just a speck of dust.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

But think about this this is a Bible right there, right? What's the hope of it? Yeah, the evidence Bible. What does it say in the very first verse of the Bible? It says, in the beginning, God created heavens and the earth. And what did he do? One summary of that Bible. Before the foundation of the world, God the Father determined to present God the Son with a redeemed humanity that would honor, worship, and glorify him for all eternity. So the focus is on the Son. The reason he created everything was that he would redeem a humanity, call them out as a love gift from the Father, the Son. That's what believers are. That's what we are if we believe. And that's a summary of there's a lot of detail there, but that's a summary. And that is purpose, an eternal purpose for the glory of Jesus Christ the Son. It's a gift from God the Father. Though the three are the same, that's still what the story, the message of God's word is. And so we may be in the vastness of things. Again, the definition of what a speck is, it's a little bitty thing in the vastness of a lot. Yeah, we're a speck in that sense, but we are not a speck with respect to God's plan and purpose. We are everything, Christ is everything, and we are a gift from everything, God the Father, to everything, God the Son. And we are not a speck. Not to raise ourselves up, but that's not what I mean, but we are not insignificant because this is a God's plan and his purpose, the creator of all things, which magnifies and glorifies him. And so put us in that spec category. Yes, we are in that definition of small with respect to large, but we are the focus. Christ is the focus.

SPEAKER_04 41:12

And that was proven at the cross. Yeah, it was proven at the cross.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

And that reminds me of the text, uh, Psalm 57, 2, where it says to God who performs all things for me, that every sunset is for Christ. Every flower is for Jesus. It's a gift, everything is just a gift to Christ. We, our salvation, is a gift to Christ. Yeah. You know, it's so so beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

It is indeed. And his creation is magnificent. And to see it from that vantage point from space, wow. Amazing.

SPEAKER_03 41:38

Yeah. So, Barry, I do have a quick question that just kind of a logistical question. So if if this if you couldn't come back on the Starliner and it's docked, how in the world were they going to get it back?

SPEAKER_01 41:49

They got it back via automation. And we shouldn't have been on it. It had some failure modes, things that happened that it would have not been good had we been on. It made it back eventually to Earth. It made it back. On autopilot? On autopilot. Yeah, it made it back. I mean, that was that's designed for automation. Like that Tesla, there you go. So it's there's uh SpaceX is the same way. The SpaceX has almost no manual control capability. Almost none.

SPEAKER_05 42:12

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

The spec Starliner has vast manual control capability. It's like a little sports car.

SPEAKER_04 42:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

Uh the SpaceX Dragon, I I say it's a Volkswagen Beetle because uh we had one when I was growing up, capable, it's different, it's got the engine in the back, air-cooled, but boy, that thing goes and chugs and keeps going. So that's what the SpaceX Dragon is. Very capable, but not a sports car like a like a like a Starliner.

SPEAKER_03 42:36

So was there a point when you're up there where you were struck with fear?

Why He Refused Fear

SPEAKER_03 42:42

Was there ever a point where you really felt intense fear? Like, wow. And you gotta take those thoughts captive and you're gonna be able to do that. Yeah, what is this?

SPEAKER_01 42:48

What do the scriptures say? It says fear not. Right? Because I am God, I am working out my plan and my purpose, his purposes. That's not to say that fear is not beneficial. There's situations where fear is very beneficial. I'm not sticking my hand in a fire as an example because I know fear of getting burned. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I'm not doing that. But this in in a situation like with Starliner, during the time that I'm manual control, during the time we're losing all those thrusters, fear is not your, not, not, not your, not it, it's detrimental. It's very detrimental. And I've learned that, that's what the stuck in space tells the story of so many situations throughout growing up professional growing up, growing up and growing up professionally as well, where the Lord showed and put me in situations where it was evident that fear, and I had some times that I was fearful, and it was a detriment to my performance because I have got to perform as a great responsibility that we all have in various aspects of our life, but certainly you're sitting in the left, the commander seat of a brand new spacecraft. There's a great deal of responsibility. And fear in the moment when my task is to maintain control so we can dock successfully, and so we will, you know, maybe won't perish because again, in the moment, I'm not sure. I don't know why we're losing these thrusters, I have no idea. Um, that's not that's not beneficial. So, no, there was no fear there. It was focus, and I'd learned that. Gunner Sergeant Tibertus Gerhart, United States Marine Corps, my drill instructor at Aviation Officer Candidate School when I first got in the military. And my coaches and the Bible, these are biblical principles of discipline, focus, determination, responsibility. All these are biblical principles that they taught me, not necessarily from scripture, but also in practice. But as I read it, I see it in scripture. And the Lord used all of that. So there was no fear. There was no fear on the space station when we were there. The biggest fear I think we have as astronauts is that we would we don't want to be the one that messes something up. You know, fear, feel, fear of failure.

SPEAKER_04 44:37

That's what you want your pilot to be like on your plane. Yes, exactly. I don't want to come on and say, hi, I'm really scared up here. Can someone gonna help me help me?

SPEAKER_01 44:43

So that's that's that's and that's that's of the Lord. All of that is of the Lord. You know, providentially at work throughout this life, putting me in a position where when in the in the moment of that, no, I couldn't be fearful. That would that would have been detrimental. I I know because I've I've experienced the where the fear was detrimental in my past. Um but there was no fear, and there was no fear about space station on space station when would we get back? Um, no, because I know the Lord is put me back 25, 30 years ago, probably would have been. But now at this point in my life, it's you know, the Lord has wor been sanctifying me as you know, that biblical process, that process of holiness. No. And because like I said, it would have it would have likely been very detrimental. Wow.

Why We’re Fascinated By Astronauts

SPEAKER_03 45:23

You know, Butch, you and I had the the privilege of speaking together at a school in Australia. You sure did. That Christian school, a pretty large assembly of kids. And I kind of want to have you weigh in on this, Oscar, uh, in a sense. First of all, Butch, how many astronauts are there currently?

SPEAKER_01 45:41

Do you know? Well, when I when I launched into space on the space shuttle back in 2009, I was the 505th human to leave the planet. So now, active astronauts eligible for assignment to spaceflight, I think the numbers in the vicinity of it's about 50.

SPEAKER_03 45:59

So it's a really, really small community. It is. Yeah. And so I think that adds to the aura because when I was there with you at the school, these kids were acting the way Oscar was up in his office. And and the way all of us are, we're all like like thrilled, right? Seriously. But but Oscar, what is behind that? Like, what causes us as people like an astronaut? You know, like totally. Is it the scarcity? Is it just what they get to do?

SPEAKER_02 46:24

Honestly, I think I mean you you mentioned it earlier, and I I I love that you brought this up, which is our God-given gift that we often overlook, which is our imagination. And I think the idea of space travel uh just pings at that imagination that we all have, which is a gift from God to us. Imagination is what allows us to explore with awesome wonder his mystery, the curiosity that draws us towards him to help us understand the vastness of all creation. I think that's uh an important aspect. I remember uh reading a book years ago called Um Evangelism and the Christian Imagination. Uh I can't remember the author's name, but one of the points that they make in this book is that we think the imagination, often we say imagination, we're like, oh, that's a child's play thing. That's what kids do to pass by the time of boredom, right? Um but Einstein himself talked about imagination as an important aspect to resolve questions in mathematics and things of that nature. And so to imagine something is to step beyond what we already know. And imagination certainly is a part of our not only our exploration of space, but certainly our exploration of God. Um, so I think that would be that would probably be the reason why we're like, whoa, because Butch has, we've imagined what Butch has done. You know. I got a question for you. Uh you kind of alluded to this earlier, but I'm thinking about it as a father of a 14-year-old.

Staying Faithful In High Achievement

SPEAKER_02 47:57

My son is uh a math whiz, he's a disciplined young man, like he's his bed's always made, his room's always clean. I I am amazed at the way the Lord has just shaped this young man and he knows and loves the Lord. I have no doubt that he's gonna go and do something amazing. Uh, he often jokes, he's like, with my first million dad, I'm gonna send you to space because I told him that like millionaires are going to space now. So I'm like, thanks, son. Uh that's why he's getting the entire inheritance. Anyway, but uh my I guess my question for you is what you know, the the route into so many different careers can become a distraction to our faith. What counsel, what advice would you give? How have you remained um just so focused on the Lord in the midst of an incredible career and such great success in a world that you could have easily been distracted and and God could have become a secondary thing?

SPEAKER_01 48:54

I think early on I was taught God's word is true. So when it says something as simple as be anxious for nothing, but everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, let your request be made known unto God. And the peace of God which passes all understanding will keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus. When it says that, you can believe that. You can it's not to say you don't get anxious, but it says be anxious for nothing. If you are, everything by prayer and supplication, you go to the Lord. And believing the scriptures, believing they are true, has been the foundation of this life. And not to say that the Lord doesn't, you know, anything you can do, anything you want. People, yeah, I hear people say that. No, you can't. You can't do anything you want. Because we operate, believers operate within the realm of the Lord's will. And prayer is the way the Lord aligns our beliefs up with his desires, right? That we learn from Scripture. So that foundation, if for the children first, kids first, when they ask me, what can I do if I want to be an astronaut? What I do, focus on the Lord first and foremost, because that will direct your desires. It will not to say that he's gonna give you every desire. I didn't get every desire of my heart. I mean, the things I the my my the biggest lessons I learned in my this life is when I did not get what I did what I thought I desired. Um and so it doesn't mean you'll get that, but a lot whatever takes place, you're you're not living your life for your glory or for or for your purpose. You're living your life for his glory and his plan and his purposes. And how we align within that, you know, using scripture as our as our as our you know our our our guidepost, our guidebook, um, whatever it is, you're gonna be satisfied in it. You and if you're not satisfied, then then that's that's sin because we're prideful and we say, hey, I want what I want, not what you want, Lord, right? But it all takes also takes effort. That's one thing I'll outline in in the book is that it's let go and let God. You've heard that phrase. Well, I I don't see that in scripture. I don't see let go and let go. I see I see that you know preparation and the Lord puts you in positions where you've got to put effort forward. And you see scriptures that you know talk about putting the effort forward. And by his, he enables us to do that. So uh obviously we can't do certain things with that he doesn't give us the ability, but we have responsibility, a huge responsibility in this life for his glory and whatever path he allows us to go down. And he's gonna give us desires of our heart, he's gonna give us capabilities. You say he's good in math, your son, and uh those type of things. We'll run down that path and enjoy it and see where the Lord might take you. Speaking of that, did you ever dream about the smell of bacon? All the time. I think they need to invent something that's like chocolate and bacon combined. That's the thing. Chocolate or bacon. I haven't heard that. I'm gonna get them. Let me train you. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_03 51:41

So so butch of the book,

How The Book Came Together

SPEAKER_03 51:43

man. Um, wow. What what a door opener. And I I was blown away by its success. You know, I I went on Amazon and looked it up some time ago. I think I sent you the text about it, and it was like number, I think, 700 and something out of 32 million different titles on Amazon. And it actually got up to 303 at one point. Did it get to 300? Shockingly. I mean, that's massive.

SPEAKER_04 52:09

So to get my books up there, I have to get you up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:15

Can you imagine, Ray? You know, Rachel and I were at the airport the other day, and there was someone they they have that machine that backs up the airplane. You know, someone was sitting there driving. And I said, Can you imagine your dad doing that? She said, Oh nightmare. Anyway, um so Ray find the door and go, what's this for? So tell us about the journey to the book. Like, how did that happen? And the doors that God has been opening for you. I mean, you're going on Fox all the time, you're going with someone on with some of the biggest bot uh podcasters. It's phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01 52:47

Yeah, the Lord is amazing. Uh, nothing I nothing I ever planned for, never I even considered, but here we are. I never considered being an astronaut, but here I was. Um, the book. I started writing stories for my daughters before this all this ever happened. Because my wife and I were in our 40s before we had our children, and we'd lived a life before they were born. So I wanted to leave them a legacy, a something of stories about us, things that they wouldn't have known otherwise, something they could have and refer to or refer back to if they decided to. So when I all this happened and I wound up on space station, I tried to use my time with intent, and I didn't have a lot of free time because we're busy. But what I did have, I just kept writing about you know the past. And I got contacted by many, many publishers through my brother, through my church, through a bunch of while I was in space. Um, but I went with a guy that is like-minded. Um, I didn't publish the book to tell a story of Starliner stuck in space. I didn't publish it for that reason. I published it for what's in it. The the book goes through things that I think many in the world, like you were saying, look at and say, wow, for me, I look back and it's life. But flying off of aircraft carriers and combat and dodging missiles and getting chased down by by MiG-29s and all that, it's all in here. You know, my wife and I, how we met, kind of a love story, if you will, to kind of intertwine into it all. Um, of course, space stories and what's it like to be on a spacewalk? It's all in there. And I think it tells it in an exciting, enjoyable, intriguing way. But the message is why I published it. It's a message of hope. It's a message of hope in the now, whatever you're dealing with. Jesus Christ is Lord. And if it points to that, and and in any situation you're in, you always have eternal hope. And it's that's the gospel. That's the gospel that saves. And that is is very clearly put in

The Gospel And Real Hope

SPEAKER_01 54:36

the book. If you don't mind, I'd like to share that. Um make sure it's very clear to those that are watching and listening. So you gotta go back to the character of God. You gotta understand God's character. We only know that because he gave us all this to get to tell us, but in summary, God's character, he's holy, righteous, just. That's just three attributes. There are many. And because of his character, he must punish sin. He has to. If he if sin is not punished, if he overlooks sin, he's not the God of the Bible. So he has to. Um and in the beginning, God created heavens and the earth. He knew before the beginning, he didn't look in the future and see what's going to happen. He knows, he ordains everything. I don't know how it all works, I don't know how it comes together, but he is sovereign, he's in control. And um, in that, he has to punish sin. So he's got to punish sin. We're sinners, Adam and Eve sinned, and we all sinned because of that from then on. There's not a single individual who's ever lived on this planet that hadn't sinned. And therefore, they deserve death, they deserve punishment. And our sin, if you understand what God's word says, is eternal. I mean, it's infinite, right? It's infinite sin against an infinite holy God. Therefore, you're you will be punished forever. Except Jesus Christ. For perfect, holy, righteous, just God to forgive, there must be a perfect, holy, righteous, and just sacrifice. And that is only Jesus Christ. He lived the life that we can't perfectly fulfill the entire law and incurred the wrath of God the Father for our sin that we deserve. And therefore, God's wrath is appeased because he has poured it out on our sin that was on Christ. And that is the gospel. That's why that's the only way, that's why that's our only hope. That's why sin will be punished forever if you don't believe. And I plead with anybody listening, they don't hear this. This is the gospel. This is your only hope. And eternal hope comes only through Jesus Christ our Lord. And that's what the book shares. That's the message of hope in the now, hope for all eternity. I hath not seen, nor ear heard, or has entered the heart of man, the things that God has prepared for those who love him. And you only love him if you love the Son. And that's Jesus Christ our Lord. So that in a nutshell is the gospel.

SPEAKER_03 56:44

That is awesome. Right? How refreshing is it to hear someone talk about sin so clearly? I know your heart was dancing.

SPEAKER_04 56:50

Yeah, absolutely. Talk about the the character of God, his holiness, his righteousness, his justice that was manifest in that cross. How angry is God against sin? Look to the cross.

SPEAKER_02 57:00

Amen.

SPEAKER_04 57:00

How much does he love us? Look to the cross.

SPEAKER_02 57:03

Yeah. Is nobody gonna ask about dodging a missile? He just dropped it like it was like, oh, yeah, I got cut off on the freeway.

SPEAKER_03 57:11

It's on page. They'll have to read the book. You know, Mark, real quick, I'd love for you to touch on this.

Sovereignty Of God In Suffering

SPEAKER_03 57:18

Hearing Butch talk about the sovereignty of God is so delightful because we both know that had things not worked out favorably, that wouldn't have changed Butch's perspective on it. And you talk about that a lot. Like God is worthy of our praise and worship no matter what happens. It's not about this prosperity gospel of everything works out how we want it to.

SPEAKER_00 57:44

Yeah, and this is just having a lofty view of God, you know, and and having a lofty view of God, you're able to realize and recognize that the trials that I go through uh will be for my good and before God's glory, right? This life is not about us, right? Piper says that we've been bought with a price, and what lies before us is a stewardship from the owner for the owner. With God being sovereign, he does whatever he wants, whenever he wants, to whomever he wants. He answers to no one, he doesn't care what you think about it. For God is in the heavens and he does what he pleases. And everything that he pleases to do, he will accomplish. And he chooses to use people. Now, what do we want? A white picket fence, right? I want I want a perfect wife, a trophy wife. I want uh my mind never to fade, right? I don't want that Alzheimer's, I don't want that dementia. I want kids that always obey. I always, of course, I always and then we start laying out our demands. This is my day today, Lord. Bless it. And it's like, you don't understand, flat tires are perfect. They're perfectly designed. And so this goes back to the Romans 8.28. If all things, and it doesn't say some, if all things are working together for our good and for God's glory, then there is no such thing as bad news, right? They're just stepping stones to get us to where we need to be. Your wayward child's rebellion, your spouse's infidelity, your financial difficulties, that cancerous news is working together for your good and for God's glory. We don't need to fight it. So as we go through the fire, and we all will go through the fire, you might as well dance. And we lift up holy hands now and today, trusting that God is in control. So when you're going through a trial, rejoice. Yeah. Right? And Piper, or not, uh excuse me, John MacArthur said he's learned through many years of walking with God that his most favorite moments in life is when the Red Sea is in front of him, knowing that God must show up, God's going to do something. And Job says that God only does miraculous things. David in the book of Psalms says God only does wondrous works. So whether it's healing a hand or making a hand grow back or healing a headache, it's all the same to God. We need to pause and just have a bigger view of God. And so we I have a plaque that says, pray bigger, God can handle it. Right. So I want to be, what do I want? I want the white picket fence, and God wants to conform me into his image. Yeah. Because this is not a dress rehearsal for what comes next. This is what it is. And what we do today is Russell Crowe says, we'll echo on into forever, the great theologian. Right, Russell Crowe. So we we need more than anything is to have a big view of God because that will be for our good.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:17

Let me let me read. I got this sent to me just yesterday. It's a verse from a song. I read one verse in the course. It says, Were it not for the Lord, I'd be anxious, worrying, loss, and disease. I would never find peace in my suffering, never find joy or relief. But because of the Lord who is sovereign, he has comforted, he has sustained, and the Lord there is no senseless suffering. So grace for today I will pray. And that's pretty powerful. That's scripture and song right there.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:47

I was thinking about because you quoted Paul, who wrote about contentment after being shipwrecked. And I just imagine you meeting Paul and being like, how about getting stuck on a spaceship? But it also, it's it's also speaks to like the power of and the inerrancy of the word of God that Paul 2,000 years ago can reflect on the character of God and find contentment in his experience and you as an astronaut 2,000 years later, you know, waiting to come home on a space station is reflecting on that same character of God 2,000 years later. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:29

So Hollywood would be chasing you for a movie deal if you didn't love God. I mean, I can see the end and you running in slow motion towards your family. The weight of gravity and all.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:41

Hey, we'll see. The Lord is doing some amazing things already. You just never know.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:45

We'll see how that turns out. Amen. And you know, I was just thinking about how that peace of the Lord, as it says in scripture, you will keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on you. Isaiah 26, 3, because he trusts in you. He who heeds the word wisely will find good, and whoever trusts in the Lord happy is he, Proverbs 16. So it's it's such a testimony to the world. We often talk about John Wesley, how it was through the Moravians' composure on that storm-stuck ship that caused him to be in awe of the reality of God. How could they be so at peace as everyone was flipping out and they were worshiping and singing to the Lord? And Butch, that to me is really the summation of your life. You're an arrow pointing to the Lord and reminding people that no matter what situation we're in, he's faithful, he's good, he's worthy, he's sovereign, and he's imprinted upon us these specks of dust that we are, his image, which gives us that value, and he wants to work in and through us.

Final Encouragements And Resources

SPEAKER_03 1:02:49

And anyone listening, I want to urge you, urge you, plead with you to get the book Stuck in Space, an Astronauts Hope Through the Unexpected. Butchwilmore.com. Make sure to check it out. And um, there you have it, friends. Butch, thank you so much for joining us, brother. Brothers, thank you. What an absolute delight it was to have you and uh look forward to more journeys. You and Ray are gonna be speaking together with other astronauts at the Ark, depending on when people are listening to this. So either check it out on audio somewhere or go if this is released. Yeah, multiple astronauts and Ray. People have been to space in a spacehead. We're all spaced out, Ray. That's what we know. So, brother, thank you so much. Thank you, brother. And we can't wait until our next adventure. Maybe I'll go with you to skip. Yeah, come on. You wouldn't qualify. An element space. Web as the homes. All right, friends. Well, there you have it. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share. Don't forget podcastlivingwaters.com with your thoughts and your criticisms and your questions. We've been answering questions lately, like we did today. Yay for joining us, friends. We'll see you here next time on the Living Matters podcast, where everybody at this table except for Captain Butch has no idea what we're doing.