The Living Waters Podcast
Enjoy the ride with this hilarious new Podcast as hosts (Ray Comfort, Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne, Mark Spence, and Oscar Navarro) and special guests explore the pressing questions of our day with sound theology and apologetics! We would love to hear from you. How has the podcast encouraged you? Are there any subjects you’d like the guys to cover or questions you’d like them to answer? Email us at Podcast@LivingWaters.com and you may hear your feedback and questions quoted on the next episode!
The Living Waters Podcast
Ep. 392 - Easy Believism Exposed
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The modern gospel is often presented as simple, comfortable, and requiring little sacrifice, yet Scripture paints a far more costly picture of following Christ. Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar examine the dangers of easy believism and why true saving faith cannot be separated from repentance and surrender. They explain that easy believism reduces salvation to intellectual agreement or a repeated prayer, ignoring the gospel's transforming power. At the same time, they warn against moralism, in which people try to earn righteousness externally without genuine heart change. True Christianity is not merely behavior modification or empty confession but wholehearted surrender to Christ as Savior and Lord.
The guys explore the relationship between justification, sanctification, and obedience. While believers are justified instantly by faith, genuine faith produces a transformed life marked by repentance and growing holiness. Scripture consistently presents the narrow path of discipleship rather than a broad and effortless road. The guys emphasize that repentance is not optional or secondary but central to the gospel message Jesus Himself preached. Grace is free, but it is never cheap, because following Christ costs believers their lives, desires, and self-rule. Salvation changes the heart, and a changed heart begins to desire obedience to God.
The conversation turns to practical questions about spiritual fruit and assurance. The guys encourage believers to examine themselves and consider whether they truly hunger for righteousness or remain comfortable in ongoing sin. They explain that spiritual fruit is not about perfection but about direction, asking whether a person’s heart increasingly desires Christ rather than sin. Biblical community also plays a vital role, as faithful churches help believers grow, lovingly confront sin, and encourage repentance. The guys stress that true love involves speaking the truth, even when correction is uncomfortable.
Finally, the guys discuss worship and transformation, explaining that people inevitably become like whatever they behold. Everyone is worshiping something, and true worship shapes the heart toward Christlikeness. Mark reflects on moving from intellectual belief to genuine saving faith after being confronted with conviction and the reality of his sin. The guys remind listeners that salvation is entirely by grace through faith, not by human effort, yet true faith always produces change. Following Christ means denying self, taking up the cross daily, and living in continual dependence on God's mercy and grace.
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Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro
Salvation By Grace Not Works
SPEAKER_06Again, there's a clear distinction between salvation by works, salvation by grace through faith. Of course, that's a doorway to salvation. But it carries with it these realities of obeying the gospel and coming to God on his terms. John MacArthur said the gospel Jesus proclaimed was a call to discipleship, a call to follow him in submissive obedience, not just to plea to make a decision or pray a prayer. Modern evangelism has substituted a message of easy believism that offers heaven without holiness, forgiveness without repentance, and salvation without submission. Now, if anyone questions, based on what we know MacArthur's doctrinal stance was that he believes in salvation by grace alone through faith alone, then you're crazy. You don't understand where he stands. But he's talking about the fullness of the truth of the message.
SPEAKER_05People are gonna believe you.
SPEAKER_06It's true.
Death Rumor And Internet Misinformation
SPEAKER_06We received an email this morning informing us Ray Comfort had died. Who was it, Ray? Mark Twain? Exaggeration.
SPEAKER_02He said it was an exaggeration that he died. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Rumors of my death are highly exaggerated. But we did. Someone wrote in and said, and it was very touching. I mean, this is what this wasn't like a joke, because it's actually one of our ministry partners, and they said how much they've been blessed by the ministry and watching your videos, and they were so, so sad.
SPEAKER_02Well, his name was Thomas, so I doubted what he said was true. Can we call him on the air? Long distance phone call from I called him this morning.
SPEAKER_09I asked I asked Ray to call him from Heaven.
SPEAKER_02I did and how'd that go? Um I got a voice message. I think he might have passed on.
SPEAKER_06Which is better that uh it was a voice message. Now he could uh he could share the story with people and play your voice. Yeah. Yeah. You know, this is a thing though, guys. I mean, I well, yeah. False reports. I remember reading about uh Opie. What's his name? Uh Howard uh Stern. Oh, and uh what was his name on Happy Days?
SPEAKER_07Uh Richie Cunningham. Richie, yeah.
SPEAKER_06I remember reading something he died, and it's crazy because you go through the emotions. I'm sitting there reflecting on him, oh Opie, Richie. And then I'm not dead. They end up, you know.
SPEAKER_09That's like when I heard Elvis Presley was dead. What? What? No, he's not the really so crazy, man.
SPEAKER_06These uh appearances of people that you see.
SPEAKER_02Well, social media social media does it so quickly now, right across the world with just one post. And then it's hard to pull it back. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08I don't know how true this is, but I there was some data point that I saw recently that said there is at least four people in the world that look incredibly a lot like you. And it was like they along with it was these pictures of people meeting each other and they looked like each other. And when you looked at the picture, you're like, yeah, they look like twins.
SPEAKER_07Like you and Rudy.
SPEAKER_08Like me and Rudy, that's exactly right. Me and Rudy Mancuso, yes.
SPEAKER_06No, I I love it when I find a picture of someone that looks like like someone, I'll show it to like Rachel and she'll confirm it. You're always doing that. I know, because I yeah. You feel validated. Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_07Doesn't easy look like Tom Cruise's stunt double off.
SPEAKER_04Stunt double off of the exit. All right, for it's time for a cool classy comment. This is from I look, guys, we have to be honest.
SPEAKER_06We get names, we try everyone. What do you mean we have to be honest? Have we been honest this whole time? Wait a minute.
SPEAKER_07Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. What have I done? Did you catch Ray's what Ray just said? What did he say? That was like the peak of humor. I said, doesn't easy look like Tom Cruise's stunt double after the accident.
SPEAKER_06Sometimes that'll listen to Ray's. Oh, that's good. Um, so anyway, France, we we get sometimes names and uh we just try our best to pronounce them. A-I-L-E-E-N. I'm gonna say Eileen. Eileen.
Listener Email And Real Transformation
SPEAKER_06Eileen and that direction. I knew an Eileen that spelled it that way. Okay, good. Eileen. Subject, how I became Christian. Hey, Living Waters, I think y'all have been a blessing. We know where she's from, more than you could actually imagine. When I was in middle school, I overheard a video being played by my older sister. It was Ray Comfort evangelizing when he was alive. And I realized that I was a sinner. I'm pretty sure it was because of that video, but I gave my life to Christ, and oh boy, my life has drastically changed for the better. Thank the Lord for your wonderful team and your ministry. Also, today I went with my church to spread the gospel. We handed out tracts from Living Waters. What a beautiful blessing. And I've grown so much spiritually. If it wasn't for that video and God using you, also, this podcast is great.
SPEAKER_04Love it.
SPEAKER_06Because it's not just transformation, and it'll play into what we're talking about today, but man, it's not just salvation, but it's it's demonstrative transformation and out there sharing the gospel. So God bless you, Eileen. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for writing in.
SPEAKER_04Get ready for our special segment, quality questions.
SPEAKER_06Thank you for such a wonderful podcast. You mentioned the book Disciplines of a Godly Man by R. Kent Yues, which appears directed specifically to men. Do you know of any equivalent book that would encompass both men and women, which we could consider for a combined Sunday school class? Well, France. As a matter of fact, yeah. I can't uh I can't give you a combined one, but the author of Disciplines of a Godly Man has a wife who wrote Disciplines of a Godly Woman. So get those both and uh somehow work it into your own.
SPEAKER_02So what's the name of your book?
SPEAKER_06Fight Like a Man?
SPEAKER_02Is your wife gonna give us Fight Like a Woman?
SPEAKER_06Slap Like a Woman. Slap. She's working on it. Although Rachel is working on a book right now for women. So but maybe one day, good idea. All right, friends podcast ringing. Shout out! Okay, Ray, you're gonna know where the countries this is from. Get him.
SPEAKER_02Israel? Oh, Israel, Jerusalem. No. No, where's the minute? Was that no? Belgium. Yes!
SPEAKER_06Yeah, shout out. Number four top Christian podcasts in Belgium and number 13 out of all religions.
SPEAKER_08They have good walls. They do. Also confessions, the Belgian confession.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, don't forget that. And Belgium sausage. Is that a thing? Yes. It's very famous. Anyone who's anyone's ever heard of that.
SPEAKER_05I'm a new one.
SPEAKER_02But apparently they're lacking podcasts. Yes.
SPEAKER_06You guys are reminding me of the schnitzel we had in Germany. Remember?
SPEAKER_07I think Germany had the best food. After we filmed our last set of basic trennicors, I went and had Winter Schnitzel. It's been several months since I've had it.
SPEAKER_06After the tacos?
SPEAKER_07After the tacos.
SPEAKER_04On the way home. Mark, we had so much left over. You went. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07No, I wanted to leave it for the crew. But it was uh it was not very good. What? Oh. I don't know what it was. I'm looking over my shoulder every three seconds to make sure I don't get mugged because of the area, but it was to get out of the car. You removed you, Belinda?
SPEAKER_06No. Now look, that shows commitment. He knew he was in a bad area and still.
SPEAKER_07I backed my car up into a stall and win.
SPEAKER_04All right,
Announcements And Ministry Resources
SPEAKER_04friends. And now radically revolutionary resources. This podcast is the Ten Commandments. Gold coin.
SPEAKER_06A large one. Ray, you like making coins?
SPEAKER_02I'd be in jail for counterfeit if I wasn't a Christian. For sure. You would. Fool's gold? Yes.
SPEAKER_06But you'd be using it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Give it to Mark.
SPEAKER_06So check it out, friends. It's larger than our typical coins, and it's all gold. Solid gold. Solid gold. Solid gold.
SPEAKER_02It's just be worth $9,000, I think, if it was solid gold.
SPEAKER_06Can you believe the price of gold now? Yeah. Really is crazy. Would it be really worth $9,000? Yes. Wow.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, 1.6 ounces.
SPEAKER_06Give it to me. Take out the gold fillings from Oscar's teeth quickly. All right, friends. Oh, and don't forget the Living Waters Mug, the Evidence Study Bible, Living Waters TV, all at LivingWaters.com. And don't forget the podcast YouTube channel.
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, we we really believe in the Living Waters mug, don't we? Oh, we sure do.
SPEAKER_09Why don't we use those anymore? Yeah, what's with these? Yeah, this is mug I like.
SPEAKER_04This mug I really
Easy Believism Defined
SPEAKER_04like. All right, friends, today we're talking about easy believism.
SPEAKER_06You like that, right? See what you did. That was awful. Exposed. Easy believism. Exposed. I remember as a newer believer, a friend of mine gave me a stack of little booklets. Man, I like booklets. You know, we we've got the uh we've got booklets here at Living Waters, and we're we're going to be producing more, but but there's something about you know something that's digestible. It's short, you could read it in a sitting, maybe, but but has good information of it. But I just remember the title stood out at me. I was a newer believer, and it said, Easy believism. And of course, the first thought was, What you know, what is that as a new believer? But I read it and and uh it was eye-opening, and it was in a sense refreshing too. Um we talked right about someone recently who had mentioned that they were delighted by your book, God has a wonderful plan for your life, the myth of the modern message. And I think when someone truly comes to know the Lord, the number one thing that they become passionate about is truth. You want truth. And we know scripture talks about those who will, in the last days, tickle ears, but I think those that belong to the Lord they they don't want their ears tickled, they want truth. Tickle Mark's ears.
SPEAKER_02I didn't want to touch it again.
SPEAKER_06You two remind me of like kids in school that need to be separated. That was so close.
SPEAKER_02See, what happens is Ray gets so paranoid when I get so close. The thing is, I'm very confident with that because my arms are short. I cannot reach his eyes.
SPEAKER_07He has made me bleed many times, though.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Ray, Ray doesn't have a sense of uh pressure. Anything? Yeah. All right. So, anyway, let's let's kick it off with uh definition. What is easy believism? Once in a while, I like to go to uh the website, got questions, our dear friends over there. They give some good stuff. So here's a good definition they gave. Easy believism is a term used against the idea that salvation is by faith alone, to the extent that those who trust in Christ are under no obligation to live transformed lives, obviously after salvation. Easy believism is not just holding the sola fide, faith alone, rather, easy believism is a rejection of any degree of repentance or change as a necessary aspect of saving faith. The problem with easy believism is that in its desire to defend salvation by faith alone, a vitally needed effort, it severs the biblical ties between faith and repentance, and between faith and the results of salvation. I think the key word there is results of salvation. But sometimes inherent in that is the call, how you present the gospel. We've talked a lot about that obviously on the podcast, but but today we want to visit this because there's a lot of easy believism going on. Ray Comfort.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the Bible speaks of hard believism. Straight is the gate, or narrow is the way that leads to life, and few they be that find it. Broad is the path that leads to destruction, and many go in that way. And that broad path that leads to destruction is a gate that they go into. It's false conversion. It's not unbelievers, because unbelievers don't go into a gate, but false converts do. They come and sit among the churches, tears among the wheat, foolish virgins among the wise, goats among the sheep, and bad fish among the good. And they'll be there right until the day God sorts them out. So we we better make sure we preach the straight gate, that it's not easy to become a Christian. And in uh addressing sinners, James says, Cleanse your hands, you sinners, purify your hearts, you double-minded, let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to heaviness. In other words, when the Bible says godly sorrow works repentance unto salvation, that's what they should go through. Not give your heart to Jesus, but agonize over your sins, as the psalmist says.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. You know, the way that I think sometimes people talk about the gospel or or the way that they talk about the concern about mentioning repentance when we're preaching the gospel, it's as if though like Christ never talked about these sorts of things. He's never said deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me. He never talked about counting the cost, which I know we'll we'll get more into. But but guys, Oscar, I'd love you to touch on this. There's so you know, it's like um old wives' fables. Oh, until old wives. Oh, that's a terrible thing. Young wives' truths. Um those things that you look back on and say, guys, this isn't this is just like godly, you know, as a as a good book says. That's how usually people start it out. As a good book says, you always you always need to know, you need to be on the alert if you hear that. But but it's always, you know, those things, godliness or claimliness is next to godliness, or God helps those who help themselves, or whatever. Um, but there's a lot out there, isn't it, that we have to be careful of that just because someone is saying it from a pulpit or who has a title doesn't mean it's true.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, I can't help but wonder. Well, I think easy believism is on both sides of the aisle. There's the one that we're talking about right now, which is we do have to look at the fact that Christian pastors, preachers will often make it like this easy way in. It's almost like they're trying to sell you steak knives, you know, for easy payments. Come be a Christian, step forward. And uh that's a problem. And I think that problem is potentially rooted in their desire to be seen as these great evangelists. You know, we had 400 people respond to my altar call last week. Well, yeah, because you lowered the bar. What did they actually respond to? And so, in that notion, again, I think there's two sides to easy believism. I think on that notion, it's important for us to remember that as Sinclair Ferguson says, we must be saved by the whole Christ, both Lord and Savior. And it's important, we talk about this often, to understand that justification and sanctification are two things, but they're two inseparable things. You can only receive the whole Christ as Lord of your life and as savior of from your sins. And you cannot separate the two. But here's the thing that's interesting. There's easy believism. The person who says, Oh, yeah, I accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, you know, at Angel Stadium 20 years ago, and I've gone through three divorces, and you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, man, I don't know, that doesn't really sound like you're you're taking the Lord serious. But there's also an easy believism in the pews. So I think it's it's it's easy for us to, I think both of these ultimately are trying to maintain control, lordship over our own lives. Easy believes believism that says, I accept Jesus as my savior, but I'm gonna live my life my way, ultimately is saying, I want control over my life. But there's a way in which someone, you know, as I've said before, you can be lost in the pig sty as much as you're lost in the pews. There's also an easy believism that says, I'm gonna make my life morally right. I'm gonna do all the moral right things, I'm gonna subscribe to all of the moral theologies, but I'm not going to give Christ my whole self. I'm not gonna die to him daily. In other words, I think easy believism is the person that never goes to church and calls themselves a Christian, but it can also be found in the person that shows up to church every single Sunday and calls himself a Christian, which then asks the question what it does mean to actually follow Christ, and you guys already mentioned it, to die to yourself daily, total and complete surrender to
Lordship And Costly Grace
SPEAKER_08who God is. I love the the the moment in uh Dr. Keller, who passed away a couple years ago, book he talks about.
SPEAKER_02I wouldn't believe that.
SPEAKER_08He talks about this woman that walks up to him after he proclaims the gospel. And here's the quote uh here's the quote from from the book. She's like kind of saying, This is this is before she got saved, but she ended up becoming a Christian. But she's wrestling with the gospel, and she walks up to him and says, This is a great scandal, it's too much. And he goes, Well, what do you mean by that? So she says, If I was saved by my good works, then there would be a limit to what God could ask of me. I would be like a taxpayer with rights. But if it is really true that I'm a sinner saved by sheer grace at God's infinite cost, then there's nothing he cannot ask of me. So if the easy believer has not yet understood the wholeness of what it means to be saved by grace. And there's an irony there because most people would go, oh, like I'm living on grace. You don't understand grace because you want to work out your salvation through fear and trembling. But actually, they're the ones who have misunderstood the sheer cost of grace.
SPEAKER_06Oh man, that's so good, Oscar. I love that distinction, you know, and that that easy route of saying, I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep these, these sort of moral guidelines to make them a part of my life, but but there isn't the true surrender of heart to the Lord in those areas that aren't seen. Because again, that's the problem with moralism. It's external, and anyone could fool anyone with the externals. That's why Jesus said he didn't need anyone to testify or said of him, he didn't need anyone to testify him to him concerning man. He knew all men and what was in man. We're duped, God isn't. Yeah, but but I'm I'm glad you you hit that aspect.
SPEAKER_07So these two categories that that you guys are mentioning, I'm I'm trying to I'm I want I'm trying to flesh it out of my head. So I'm wondering if the audience is as well. Are are we saying that that the former group that you're talking about here, the easy believism, uh the message, they're hearing the message, and they're not getting saved? And likewise, are we saying that the person who's attending church that they're not saved as well, but they had some sort of an experience? Or uh so I'm trying to understand this. Are you saying that one is saved, one's not, or both are not saved, both are saved, and maybe they just can't articulate what they're going through and they haven't had uh complete surrender? I'm trying to understand maybe the lordship, even in the midst of this.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. I mean, I would I would say, and I I believe I I'm tracking with where Oscar's going, but I would say in both cases, neither are saved. And the issue is with the first, they they didn't come through the doorway of repentance, which again we have to remember, guys, is granted by God. We get a lot of flack on this. Like you guys are saying, listen, we're not talking about salvation being in its justifying element a progressive thing. Justification is instant. You're justified, made 100% right with God in an instant. Sanctification, as Oscar alluded to, is a separate thing. But but you have to have the fullness of truth preached, and people must believe that truth. It's not just, it's not just assent, it's not just I agree. It's now I'm gonna come to God through the means he's established while God is doing it, of course. And so so the problem is that people are not getting around. I mean, that's what Ray's whole ministry has been about all his life. Proclaim the law and the gospel. People need to see their sin and call through the doorway of repentance.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, if we don't surrender, we're still at war with God. Yeah. Being a Christian means giving up your will entirely and trusting in the grace of God. The hypocrite is like someone who says, I'm gonna put a parachute on, but I'm not gonna tie it on tight. Well, you're gonna see the problem when you leave, when you pass through the door, put on the Lord Jesus Christ. If any man come to you, let him take up his cross daily and deny himself. Follow me? That means surrender of the will. Um, often we hear the thief on the cross, all he did was believe. He just turned to Jesus and believed. But it's much more there when you look at it. He was a thief. He had violated the eighth commandment, but he knew he was there justly for his sins. He said, We deserve to be here, but this man has done nothing wrong. And then he turned to Jesus and trusted in grace because he had a knowledge of sin. And that's what happened, and that's what's missing with so many so-called believers. They believe, but they don't have that knowledge of sin that that thief had.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. That is a moment of dying to yourself, too, if you think about it. That thief on the cross is not saying, Save me. He's saying, I deserve death. He is literally surrendering on his own cross. He is picking up his cross and dying to himself in that moment. And then he turns and and and puts his eyes on Christ on the cross.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, and and Mark, I would say too, in reference to the other person who's sitting in the pew, I think that in that case, it's either they're a hypocrite and they're just putting on an act and they like to add religion to their uh status, maybe, or it could be that they they are prideful and don't want to surrender to Christ receiving his righteousness and they're trying to establish their own, which again is is is a danger because you see in the Pharisees. No righteousness at all. That's right, you must believe the gospel. And so, so uh Ray, I I'd love you
Counting The Cost Of Discipleship
SPEAKER_06to comment on this. I'm just gonna read it. This is Luke 14, beginning verse 25. Now great multitudes went with him, and he turned and said to them If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, wife, and children. Children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not bear his cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. For which of you intending to build a tower does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it. After he has set, laid the foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him. And uh and saying this man began to build and was not able to finish. And then he talks about, you know, the king and you know, sitting down, and and and see says, So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be my disciple. I mean, again, by the way, people talk, you think Jesus would never say anything like that. How do you square that, right?
SPEAKER_02Oh, it's a very hard thing to square. I remember Pen Gillette, the atheist, pointed that out as being uh showing Christianity is a hateful religion because he didn't understand hyperbole. God is our creator. We don't breathe without God's kindness, giving us lungs and giving us ear. We don't see without God's kindness and giving us light and creating our eyes. Everything we have is from God, and there, therefore, it's our reasonable service to love him with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. And that's what Jesus was saying. It's hyperbole, unless the love that you have for your mother, your father, your brother, your sister in your own life seems like hatred compared to the love that you have for the God that gave those loved ones and that life too. You cannot be my disciple. That's our reasonable service, surrendering
Repentance And The Gospel Message
SPEAKER_02all. Now I was thinking the phrases that modern evangelism uses. Instead of preaching the pure doctrine of repentance and faith, modern the modern message is a witch's brew of man-made phrases. Give your life to Jesus, um, accept Christ as your into your heart, say this prayer after me and you're saved. All those things are just cliches we often hear, and they're so foreign to what scripture says.
SPEAKER_07If your faith hasn't uh saved you, um if your faith hasn't changed you, it hasn't saved you. Right. So oftentimes when I'm talking to people out on the street, and it's not unusual to come across Christians who maybe are out of touch with the reality of what uh scripture says, and maybe they're fornicating, and I'll say, Hey, when you became a Christian, what did you repent of? Or when you became a Christian, did you repent? Because without repentance, you cannot be saved unless a man repents, he cannot enter heaven. I mean, it's very simple. Repent and believe the gospel. Repentance is is the message, it's not part of the message, it is the message, and we believe that God grants repentance that leads to the truth. But uh, if a man is still having no problem sinning without any conviction, there is something drastically wrong. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08Here's uh I I've heard this before, and I'm gonna steal it, which is that grace saves you from sin, but it doesn't leave you in your sin. And you think about the impact, like truly the impact of what we talk about, that Jesus, God incarnate, creator of all things, sustainer of all creation, would die on the cross for me. If you really wrap your head around that reality, how could your life stay looking? How do you not have total and complete surrender? I haven't seen this movie in a really long time. Um, so I can't recommend it because I don't remember what's particularly in it, but saving Private Ryan. I love the end of that movie because Ryan, the the soldier that, you know, these guys go out. If you got if I remember the movie correctly, he's a brother and his other brothers passed away, and so some somehow they figure this out and they send this platoon to go save Private Ryan because they need to get him home to his mom, right? And all the guys essentially die to try to save Private Ryan. And at the end of the movie, he's standing at the gravestone and he's weeping, and he says to his wife, Have I lived a good life? It's like in that moment, he's reflecting about the cost that it meant for him to live. And it changed everything about him. If that's true about a soldier whose other soldiers died for him, how much more is that true for a savior who is Lord, who is Lord of Lords and King of Kings? Dietrich Bonhoeffer calls it costly grace. Here's his quote. He says, costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock. Such a grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is a grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly, it is costly because it cost a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin. It is grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it costs God the life of his son. You were brought bought with a price, and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his son to dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the incarnation of God.
SPEAKER_06Oh man. That's so good. Reminds me of that saying, I can't remember who said it, but when a man when a when God calls a man to himself, he bids him come die. He bids him come die. And and that really is is the standard. It's the call to total death. I mean, again, that that's the whole point of what Jesus was saying. Count the cost. No one goes to war without thinking, hey, am I gonna be able to win this war? Right? You don't start to build something without, hey, do I have enough to finish it? You know, and so so that's key. And I had someone talk to me the other day, and they were they were telling me how they are just so consumed right now with the whole reality of our call to obedience as Christians. And I can't tell you how much that encouraged me because you're often seeing the opposite of that, right? At least in attitude, if not in word, in terms of like how people live. What can I do to fulfill my own desires and wishes? But he was like, Man, he's like, I don't understand it. Just hit me like we're called to live a life of obedience. I'm like, Yeah, Ray, what's your saying? Uh a sinner has enough desire for the word obedience.
SPEAKER_02Oh, as the four-year-old boy has for the word bath.
SPEAKER_06I love that. Yeah, yeah. The world isn't interested in obedience to God, right? It almost sounds like some archaic word.
SPEAKER_02Whenever we speak of obedience as Christians, we're afraid of accusations from certain people that we're preaching lordship salvation, that we're saying it's not enough to believe, you've got to obey. But though he were a son, yet learned he obedience by the things that he suffered, and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation to all that obey him. And so you can't you can't call yourself a Christian if you've not yielded your will to God. What he says goes. That's why you should read the word. Say, what does God want me to do?
SPEAKER_07You know, there's a listen to a scripture that every one of us need to grapple with at some point in our lives as we uh just look at what we we are doing. Are we being obedient? Are we being disobedient? And that is 2 Corinthians 13, 5, where it tells us to examine ourselves to see whether we are in the faith. It's not examine my decision, it's it's examine my life. Does my life add up to what a Christian should add up to? Right? Well, what does a Christian look like? And what is that uh that verbiage that we've heard our whole lives? You know, if the if you were put on trial as a Christian, would there be enough evidence to condemn you? More or less words, right? Is there enough there? So we need to examine ourselves to see if we're in the faith. I remember I was speaking at a church in Mesquite, Texas, and when I was all done, there was a deacon that came up to me and he said, By what you're saying, it sounds like you're implying that I'm not a Christian. And I said, Well, I don't know, are you? And he says, Well, it's listening to you, it sounds like I'm not a Christian. And then the senior pastor was right there talking to me, he said, Oh, Earl, if anybody's a Christian, you are. You have faithfully served inside the church for X amount of years. And I stood between the pastor and my honorarium, and I said, I said, sir, it is good to examine yourself right now to see if you're in the faith. You know, respond to what God is sharing with. What did he say? Um, I don't I don't remember what happened after that. I I just remember uh not being asked back. Not being asked back. I actually did come back. Uh but but it you know, it it's good. It's good to just kind of pause and to have a litmus test, you know. Am I desiring to hang out with believers or with the world? You know, do I desire holiness or do I desire, you know, I don't know, watching the Lakers more than anything else. Hey, that's not a shot. That's not a shot tonight at 5 30. Yeah, so we just have to be careful. Where when we are alone, and how do you word it easy?
SPEAKER_06Like when we're alone when our when nobody's around who we are in private, when we're most comfortable, least self-conscious, and there's no one to impress, that is who we are. That is who we are.
SPEAKER_02You guys ever get physical manifestation? That's gonna be a weird question. When you're about to transgress your conscience, is there something that happens to you physically? Because I'm building that I I have an experience like that.
SPEAKER_06I've never done that, so you can transgress your. What do you want to just tell us, right? What'd you do, right?
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna tell you what I did. Sorry, I'm trying to think back like 30 years ago. Was this when you stole that car? No, that's we've got a pantry. Confession time. Dead man can't steal cast. Confession time with breakup, please continue. Um I I'll I'll go into the pantry and there's these little chocolate things in a little in a little plastic thing. And uh, seriously, I am not hungry. I am there because I just want one of those things. And as I go and reach it, I actually feel my conscience in my eyes. It's a really weird feeling. It's like my heart goes up a little. You know, lie detectors aren't lie detectors, they're heart detectors because the heart skips a beat, your blood pressure goes up when you're about to lie. And I feel that it's so so tender. The light of the body is the eye. So my body reflects, and I just feel it, and I just drop that immediately and say walk away. And I thank God for that. Um, because it's it's a protector from me transgressing in a tiny way, just like Eve transgressed in a tiny way. Why do you have it in the house though? Well, it's our pantry. Yeah, right. Get rid of it, right? I want more now. I'm going. I'm going to tell you. They're little peanut butter things. Peanut butter and dark chocolate. Yeah. Really. They're really good. Trader Joe's has the thing. I mean, seriously, the peanut butter's actually good for you, and dark chocolate's good for you. So I'm doing myself a favor when I have ten of them.
SPEAKER_08Five of them. Have you guys done powdered peanut butter?
SPEAKER_02Powdered peanut butter. Powdered peanut butter.
SPEAKER_08It pulls out all the fat, so you can put it in protein shakes. It's really great. It has nothing to do with the pulls out all the fat.
SPEAKER_01Do you know what you know what fat stands for? Flavor and taste.
SPEAKER_02Ooh, you heard it here first. For alien oils. Is that original? Yeah. Pride. Thank you.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, you know, 2 Thessalonians 1.8, he will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. It's interesting because as we were talking about obedience, you know, obedience, the the entry into the kingdom begins with obedience, obeying the gospel, which is that call to repent and believe and grasp its truth, you know? Whoever says I know him and does not obey his commandments is a liar. And the truth is not in him. Yes. Yeah. You know, I had someone uh write me recently who who detests lordship salvation. And that's a term that's thrown around, right? Whenever someone throws something around, you want to ask him, What do you mean by that? Exactly. And I might end up saying, No, I don't believe in that. But if you mean by lordship salvation that I I've obeyed the gospel and have surrendered my life to Christ in repentance and faith, yes, of course. But it should make us suspicious when someone wants to kick against that. Like, what do you mean Christ is not Lord over your life? Like, what are you trying to say? Again, there's a clear distinction between salvation by works, salvation by grace through faith. Of course, that's a doorway to salvation. But but it carries with it these realities of obeying the gospel and coming to God on his terms, you know? And and so we we have to we have to be mindful of that. John MacArthur said the gospel Jesus proclaimed was a call to discipleship, a call to follow him and submissive obedience, not just to plea to make a decision or pray a prayer. Modern evangelism has substituted a message of easy believism that offers heaven without holiness, forgiveness without repentance, and salvation without submission. Now, if anyone questions, based on what we know MacArthur's doctrinal stance was that he believes in salvation by grace alone through faith alone, then you're crazy. You don't understand where he stands. But he's talking about the fullness of the truth of the message.
SPEAKER_08To be clear, MacArthur's not standing anymore.
SPEAKER_06So anyway, he's with Ray.
SPEAKER_08He's with Ray. He's
Adoption And Stewardship
SPEAKER_08in the kingdom. I think it it might be helpful here to reflect on uh the Greco-Roman tradition of adoption. And this is important because as we read, Paul talk about adoption as oxygen. Yeah, the so Greco-Roman would be the culture that was sound like a lizard.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, carry on.
SPEAKER_08Naturally, naturally.
SPEAKER_07Gecko-Roman.
SPEAKER_08Yes, that's oh, cat call Roman. Um so Paul is speaking as a Roman citizen. He writes the book of Romans and he talks often of this idea of adoption. So what I'm trying to do here is take this idea of lordship and apply it to adoption because you even see it here in this theology. So, adoption in the Roman world was not like adoption is today. Adoption today is essentially us uh, you know, you find somebody who cannot help themselves, a child without a home, without any privilege, without any means financially education, and you adopt him into your home. The Roman version of adoption was a little bit different. Usually what happened was you had a family member, the hierarchy of the family. He did not have a firstborn son. Maybe he only had daughters, or maybe he didn't have kids at all. If he died, he would lose the opportunity to transfer or to keep his power, his funds, his household name if he didn't have a firstborn boy. So what happened is they would find a bondservant that showed great promise. Thank you, Yale. Just kidding. Was that you? Yale. Yeah, Yale. I'm gonna yell at Yale.
SPEAKER_09Yale's our camera guy. So we love Yale, by the way.
SPEAKER_07We love Yale, yeah. Nobody has any idea what you're talking about, though. It was so faint.
SPEAKER_09His phone was going off. His phone was going off. Oh, yeah, yeah. His phone was going off. Okay. So Yale. Why did you just come on camera and his podcast for us?
SPEAKER_07He was trying to mute it and he called, he commissioned it. Lawsuit.
SPEAKER_09That was his Apple Watch. That's him telling me he's not interested in what I have to say.
SPEAKER_05Very profound.
SPEAKER_08So, what they would do is find a bond servant that showed promise. They were highly educated, they were hard workers, but they did not have family. And this uh the the patriarch of the family would adopt this person into their family with the intent of passing off as a sort of um, what's the word I'm looking for? The, as a sort of the.
SPEAKER_07Okay.
SPEAKER_08They would pass off all that they had so that they could inherit it and inherit it, and they would become stewards of the name and of the family. That's the key. So when Paul calls us his adopted children, what he's saying is, you have become stewards of my kingdom, of my righteousness, of my fruitfulness. So to say yes to Jesus, to believe in transaction without transformation, is to miss the understanding of what it means to be adopted by God and to be a steward of his household.
SPEAKER_06Ray, uh, were you thinking of Ben Hur when he's talking about adoption in the Greek oral? No, but I am. No, because it's not your favorite movie anymore. That's why A Great Awakening.
SPEAKER_02Which has just come out on some?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I think so, probably by now. Fantastic movie. Yeah. Uh, what were you gonna say?
SPEAKER_02Well, um, I just love that movie. It's out. That's good. That's good.
SPEAKER_08You've seen Oscar? I have, yeah. It's been a really long time. No, he means a Great Awakening. Great Awakening. Oh no, I haven't seen Great Awakening yet. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_02It's one of the signs that follow them that believe. What do you mean?
SPEAKER_06Pray for me in the original Greek. Yeah.
Why "Pray This After Me" Fails
SPEAKER_06Um Paul Washer. Oh, I love Paul Washer. You guys remember that. I mean, this is his claim to fame, the shocking youth message.
SPEAKER_07Which he didn't even record, and the church didn't even record it. It was uh Lane Chaplin inside the crowd had recorded that, and then he put it up on the way it was?
SPEAKER_06Is that why it's such low quality? I think it was pretty yeah. That was it. So that that's really what launched Paul Washer was. I'm trying to think of like these organizers, you know, the person who thought, hey, let's bring this guy. And because if you remember, in the sermon, people kept laughing and they're just like, eh, and and like he wasn't messing around. What's the title of the sermon in case someone's hasn't heard it? So, you know, they this was like a real fun youth thing, and you could tell it was one of those like kind of probably uh sort of seeker-sensitive atmosphere, you know. That kind of vibe. Yeah. So Paul, Paul gets up and just, man, he he he let him have it. But anyway, he said, he said, the greatest heresy in the American evangelical church is that if you pray this prayer, you're going to heaven. It doesn't matter how you live afterward. That is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. Ray, pray this prayer. Uh it's almost a coined phrase. Pray this prayer after me. Why does that bother you?
SPEAKER_02It doesn't really bother me because it's what Nathan did with David. When David had committed adultery and committed murder, Nathan said, You're the man, now say this after me. It was just ridiculous to get someone to repeat something. And the analogy I use is the uh the guy's committed adultery on his wife, he's willing, she's willing to take him back. So you take him, knock on the door, she opens the door, and you say, Here's your husband, he's got something to say to you. Are you ready? Yeah, say this after me, dear wife. I'm so sorry for committing adultery. She's gonna slam the door. Because she's not interested in his words, she's interested in his heart. It's he's sorry from his heart. She doesn't want him, she wants to see a tear in his eye, not words in his in his mouth. And that's what we read in Psalm 51. What a tremendous penitent prayer from David. Have mercy upon me, oh God, according to your loving kindness, according to the multitude of your tender mercies, blot out my transgressions. And that really is such a wonderful thing for those of us who come to him laden and heavy laden with guilt to know that God is rich in mercy. Wow.
SPEAKER_06So good.
How To Respond To No Fruit
SPEAKER_06Uh Oscar, I I'd love you to touch on this. Um, how would you respond to someone who who claims what says we just touch it? He just has to touch it.
SPEAKER_01Touch on it. You're so easily distracted. You're like a squirrel.
SPEAKER_06I'm like a squirrel. What were you singing? I have no idea. Um, okay. Someone who says that they're a Christian has been professing Christ for years, but they show no fruit of salvation. How would you approach that person? Because again, the podcast here isn't just to give information. I know a lot of our friends listen because they want kind of direction on how to handle certain things in life in real time.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, I think there's there's two things that come to mind. Uh there's the easy way, E, Z way, uh, and then there's the communal way. Uh the communal way, first and foremost, is that you hopefully are going to uh a biblically sound church, that your elders, that your deacons, the lay people, that they know you, and for you to walk up to that person and to ask them about the fruitfulness in your life, is there any concerns? Because God gives us to a body of believers to affirm us in our faith, or as iron sharpens iron, to call us out in our hypocrisy, right? And so that question should be asked in the context of a local community. And if you're not a part of one, go find one. Go find one and live out your life through them. And if the reason why you don't want to find them is because you don't want them to know who you really are, then there's another sign right there. And then the second way, and actually I'm gonna kick it right back to you because we were just talking about this the other day. I love the way you approach. I've was always challenged in my evangelism when I'd meet someone who who claimed to be a Christian, but you just sensed there wasn't fruitfulness until I heard you. I think we were in Hawaii do this. I'd love for you, actually. I'd kick it right back to you. Like, what do you do when you're out on the streets? How do you
SPEAKER_02Kick it. Kick it. Yeah, kick it.
SPEAKER_06Kick it. Yeah. Sounds like I'm about to kick a rhyme. Are you saved? Are you enslaved? Do you have a hairy face or have you shaved? I don't know where that came from. That's opposite of our Oscar heard me say. And it's just sure. That's it. That's it. It was fantastic. Yes, it did.
SPEAKER_02He takes it back to you.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, no, look, and this is the thing. I was talking about someone that wrote to me and basically is saying we shouldn't, we shouldn't ever look for fruit in a person's life. I'm thinking, man, what Bible have you read? Like, what are you talking about? And again, it always goes back to, hey, you don't want to judge people. But but what did Paul say in Corinthians? Do you not judge those who are in the church? Those who are outside God judges them. What's he talking about? He's talking not about exploring whether someone's motives are pure or not, because you don't know their heart or whether you know their intentions are this, that, or the other. It's looking at the fruit. We have to. How do you how do you exercise church discipline if you don't judge? Right? How do you how do you deal with someone who's living in a manner that is totally contrary to God's word if you're not making some clear external judgment? And so because I love people, whenever we're sharing the gospel, and especially in the United States, because again, there's cultural Christianity, right? I said a prayer. I was born in a Christian home. I go to church. So if we love people, we're going to challenge them on that. And that's where I go to verses like in Matthew 7, 21 to 23, where Jesus said, Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied, cast out demons, done many wonders in your name. And all those other verses, right? Titus 1.16, they profess to know God, but by their disease they deny him. We've already cited some of the ones from 1 John, which is a great book, by the way, to read. If you're wanting to examine yourself, whether it's loving the brethren or it's obeying the commandments, or it's walking in darkness versus light, you know. And so I say to them, hey man, Jesus said this. Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, this is saying there's going to be a lot of people who thought they knew God, and in the end they're going to realize that they didn't. And look what Jesus said. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness. He's talking about a life that has in it a consistency of rebellion when it comes to living in accordance with what he's called us to do. And so, man, you know, for example, someone can say they're a Christian, they're not. And this is what it looks like. Someone who says they're a Christian but early isn't, they have no problem cheating on their taxes for their own convenience. They have no problem looking lustfully at women or or or checking out pornography. They have no problem telling lies, you know, for their own convenience. And as you're doing that, you're describing them to themselves. And their conscience kicks in and begins to do the work. And they're thinking, wait, I do that. I do that, I do that.
SPEAKER_07How do you how do you close that? Once you've started going through that, he just laughs at you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06What is the end? And in the end, I tell them, but hey, listen, if that describes you, the good news is that man, you can get right with God. And then I bring in the gospel.
SPEAKER_07You know, that's so great.
SPEAKER_06And I found it to be super helpful because that's the dilemma. You know, especially when it's like, oh, I believe, I believe. And and and often I'll preface it with this question. I'll say, Hey, can you honestly say that right now your life is totally 100% completely sub submitted and surrendered to Christ? He's the very center of your life. 99% of the time, sure. No, no, not really. Right? And then you say, Hey, Jesus said, if you're looking either cold nor hot, he'll speed you from his mouth. And then I'll tie it in with all that.
SPEAKER_08So we've uh we've addressed this from a lordship perspective, and some people have an aversion to that, that sounds like, but we've also looked at the aspect of adoption. But there's another one, too, that's super important.
Worship Shapes The Worshiper
SPEAKER_08Basically, what I'm trying to do here, what we're trying to do here is build a theological foundation that this is not just a transaction thing, it's a transver transformation thing. And so the third thing, lordship, adoption, the third thing is worship. As GK Beale says, uh, we become like what we behold. It's important to recognize that scripture tells us that we are all created to worship. It is not whether or not we are worshiping, but at all times, in every scenario, the question is, what are we worshiping? And as Beale points out as he reads through the Old Testament, what he recognizes is that worship is not a passive act, it's something that transforms you. So he points out in the Old Testament, they started to worship these false idols. They were statues, and God mocks. He literally says, the statues, they have eyes, but they cannot see. They have ears, but they cannot hear. And then he says, You have eyes, but you cannot see, you have ears, but you cannot hear. What he's saying is that you are becoming like the thing that you worship. You become like the thing you behold. And to your point, right? Like if we are truly following Christ as Lord and Savior, then it is natural that we're gonna become more and more like him. And if you're not becoming more and more like him, then it's fair to ask, what are you worshiping? Because it doesn't seem like you're worshiping God. Yeah. Oh, so good.
SPEAKER_02We're either in a worship as an enemy of God, or we're in worship, surrender to God. Ooh. Is that original? Is that original?
SPEAKER_04Wow. P-R-I-R-L-G-A-T-T-PRID that Ray can't hide. It's coming out because it's inside.
SPEAKER_02You know, um, Jesus doesn't exaggerate. Um, it's one thing I've learned, he said, Behold, which is like a little trumpet, some big truth is coming. Behold, I come quickly.
SPEAKER_01It's been two thousand years.
SPEAKER_02And so when he says, Many on that day will say, Lord, Lord, that's a frightening thought. It's not like 200, 500. Could be millions or even billions have called Jesus Lord and have not done the things that he told them. Wow.
SPEAKER_06You know, I it's weird. I I I often when I think of the size of the supposed church, right? I'm always I'm always thinking in the present, and I think the estimate is two billion or two two point five billion or whatever it is Christians, professing Christians, of course, and all everything is included in that. But but you think of for two thousand years, what is that number? I mean of of professing. That's why when you when when you read six or something like that, but when you read many, that is billions upon billions upon billions who have over 2,000 years professed Christ. You know, it's a s and it's a scary thought.
SPEAKER_07You know, I remember when I was in eighth grade, I went, I got invited to a camp, and it was there that I asked Jesus to come into my heart. And then uh that was during uh winter camp, and then summer camp came and I asked Jesus to come into my heart again. And then I went into high school and I uh became an athlete. I I do what you do when you're in high school, and then my uh freshman year um before excuse me, back up a little bit, all throughout high school. I remember continually coming across some sort of a message here and there where I would once again just ask Jesus to come into my heart. Come into my heart, come into my heart. This is that easy believism, right? That we're kind of talking about. But there's something within our spirits where we go, it's just not adding up. You know, I know that my sin inside my life is is so big that there's no way if I die right now, I'm gonna go to heaven. This is why I keep asking Jesus to come into my heart every week, because I'm doing things that are wrong and I know that they're wrong. And it wasn't until my freshman year in college when I went to an event, uh, the same event that you got saved at, a year later, I believe, that I was challenged. It was a long event, it was a long sermon. But you know, it I think there was a place where I just I believed in God, you know. So at that point I thought I was going to heaven because I just believed in God. You know, I'm a Christian, I'm an American. You know, I believe in, of course, I believe in God. But it wasn't until I was confronted with the tenth commandment of covetousness because I wanted to steal those Levi genes that God, God got a hold of me in the midst of that. And now my spirit bears witness with his spirit that I am a child of God. So it moved from a place of an intellectual belief because even the demons believe and they tremble. And I've talked to people and say, Well, I don't tremble. And I say, Well, that's your problem. You should you should tremble before God. He's angry with the wicked every day, right? And so I think there has to come that place where we move from this believism to a place of ownership that he owns me and he is inside my life. And the scripture, whoever says I know him but does not keep his commandment is a liar, and we talked about it earlier. That that is what convicted me because I say that I know him, but I'm not keeping his commandments. Something is not adding up. Right.
SPEAKER_06I get really, really concerned when I come across someone who professes Christ and says, I don't want to be baptized. Like, wait a minute, hold on a second here. And and that just speaks to that call, right? Like, you don't ask questions when you submit to Christ, when you've truly come to him. And and that's what we're talking about, you know. And again, we have to we have to give emphasis here. You're saved by grace through faith, that not of yourselves. It's a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Second Timothy 1, 9 to 11. Again, clear on that. Titus 3, clear on that. Not by anything we could do. But what we're saying is if if someone has come through the gateway of true repentance and faith, they're going to have a life of consistent obedience to the Lord. Doesn't mean they never stumble or struggle or sin. It means that they truly yearn to obey Christ. And when they don't, they're grieved beyond description. And they've understood the cost of discipleship.
SPEAKER_07Can you can
Sanctification And Ongoing Repentance
SPEAKER_07you address for just a moment the idea of sinless perfectionism, right? Because it may come across to some who's listening to this that begins to think, so you're saying I no longer sin. You're saying I've repented, I've turned from my sins, I'm no longer doing anything. Like I've arrived, I've attained, right? If you continue in sin, right, the spirit is not in you, you you've deceived yourself. So, Dill, if you could, for just a moment, sinless perfection, are you saying that we arrived at some sort of a place where we no longer sin?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah, that's unbiblical because obviously we know as like first John talks about, if we say we have no sin or we haven't sinned, uh, we make God a liar, uh, and we're liars, because of course we will continue to sin. That's a whole process of sanctification. Um, and and and scripture is clear on that in terms of what it says in Hebrews 10. By one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. And the process of sanctification includes sinning and repenting and and growing and getting right with the Lord. You know, even in in 1 Thessalonians or 2nd Thessalonians, he talks about, you know, those who are in sin. He says, but but but make sure don't to not treat him like an enemy, right? But but kind of exhort him and come toward him as a brother. That's speaking of those in the church who can sin. Even, you know, the the guy that had sin in 1 Corinthians and 2 Corinthians, he said, hey, reaffirm your love for him. He obviously repented and got right with the Lord. So so that's key and important to point out. But it's the it's the issue of where is your heart in relation to sin. So in other words, on on on a is it on a horizontal level or is it on a vertical level? I've I like Ray mentioned, Psalm 51, I've grieved the God I love above all else. I hunger and thirst for righteousness. Yes, I'm a sinner, I still stumble, my my heart is is wicked, but there's been a transformation in me. Galatians 5, the flesh lusts against the spirit, the spirit against the flesh. These are contrary to one another, so that you may not do that which you wish. Who is the you? It's a spiritual man. Romans 7, right? Paul spoke to that, that battle that's going on within. But yet the believer yearns to obey God. When he doesn't, he's grieved at his core, and ultimately he's going to repent and get right with God.
SPEAKER_07Can I make an observation here for you that are listening? So I asked a question to Easy that he was not ready for, and he just rattled off about 15 scriptures, right? I mean, this is a rapper. Like a rapper. This is how we answer questions. This is how we work through issues inside of our life. We use scripture upon scripture upon scripture, and it does a work inside of us. Uh, that was a masterclass.
SPEAKER_06I absolutely so much, Mark. Where would we be without the word? I mean, honestly, I think about that. You know, I think about those who don't know Christ who are trying to navigate through life and they have no foundation, right? I've said it before. It's like a person lost at sea in a ship with no boat, no rudder, no motor, no sails, no compass, no sea, no sea, no air, no, no nothing. Yeah. But but Ray, um, just piranhas.
SPEAKER_02There's no water. I'd like to pick up something Mark said about you're saying to someone about trembling before God, and they say, I don't tremble before God, and Mark says that's the problem. I think part of the problem is that we hear uh modern evangelism say that God is angry at sin. No, he's not. He's angry at sinners. God wasn't angry at adultery or murder with David. He was angered at David because of his sin. And the scriptures say God is angry with the wicked every day. Psalm 7, verse 11. That's a Bible verse I just dropped in there to show I do know how to use pride. Pride. No, hang on. Pride here is Psalm 711. That's the memory that I've got. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, so God is not angry at sin, he's angry at sinners, and I think it's important to own it.
SPEAKER_06And once once you've tasted of his mercy and forgiveness, Ray, you you say this often at the end of sharing the gospel, um, where you're reminding people it's it's not about their goodness or their works, but because God is is good and kind and rich in mercy. Is that how you say it?
SPEAKER_02Yes. Good and kind and rich in mercy. And God saves you not because you're good, but because he's good, kind, rich and mercy and rich in mercy.
SPEAKER_07I want to point something else out. Ray kind of had his, I don't know why you're clapping, I'm talking about you, I'm talking to you, a sort of moment. I was at a church with Ray, I don't know, 20, 25 years ago in Corona, and they were insistent upon um Ray giving some sort of an altar call. And people are raising their hands or whatever, whatever it was that ended up happening. I don't think people were coming forward. Uh, but uh Ray said, I don't know why you're clapping. He's I don't applaud when I plant a fruit tree. I applaud when that fruit tree brings forth fruit. Let's wait until we see the fruit inside their lives before we applaud. Oh that's good. Do you remember saying that, Ray? Yeah, I didn't. Pride. I pride that he cannot hide because it's a good idea.
SPEAKER_02It was it was either I lied or I pride. It was one of the two. I didn't even choose. You Jews.
SPEAKER_06You choose. Let me wrap wrap it up with this quote by Diedrich Bonhoeffer.
Cheap Grace Warning And Hope
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I want to rap, I want to rhyme all the time. Yeah. Uh Diedrich Bonhoeffer, cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, communion without confession, grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ. Oh, and that's from uh the cost of discipleship. And that's all we're saying, friends. Grace is not cheap, it's free to the unbeliever, but it costs God a whole lot to secure for us. The call is death. Deny yourself, take up your cross, follow him, come to the doorway of repentance and watch what God will do as he transforms you, transformation, regeneration. And that's the thing, right? Like when the enemy is screaming at us, and maybe we've sinned and struggled for those of you right now that are discouraged, but you know you know the Lord. It's usually those that don't know him that are trying to justify that they know him. It's usually those that know him who've sinned, like, oh no, man, I just want to be sure, you know. But just remember that moment of regeneration, when your sins were washed away, when you embraced him through faith and experienced his grace. Hold on to that. When the enemy's screaming lies into my mind, when my emotions and my thoughts are telling me things that don't comport with what's true, I go back to the truth of the word and I align that with that day that I was made into a new creature, when I experienced his love and forgiveness and mercy, and where I began to hunger and thirst for righteousness. So hold on to him, let him be your security. Amen.
SPEAKER_04Thank we're thank you.
SPEAKER_06All right, friends.
Final Wrap Up And Contact Info
SPEAKER_06Don't forget all the good stuff. Don't forget the Ten Commandments. Coin. It's really good, isn't it, right? Yes, very good. Super good. Yeah. So remember to check it out. And don't forget, like, subscribe, share, podcast at the living others.com with your thoughts and questions. We want questions. Good inquiries. And so today I'm gonna be a little different.
SPEAKER_04Thank you for joining us, friends. We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast where we have no idea.
SPEAKER_06I love that head turn, Oscar, when I did that.
SPEAKER_09It was more like getting slapped in the face. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06What we're doing.
