The Living Waters Podcast
Enjoy the ride with this hilarious new Podcast as hosts (Ray Comfort, Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne, Mark Spence, and Oscar Navarro) and special guests explore the pressing questions of our day with sound theology and apologetics! We would love to hear from you. How has the podcast encouraged you? Are there any subjects you’d like the guys to cover or questions you’d like them to answer? Email us at Podcast@LivingWaters.com and you may hear your feedback and questions quoted on the next episode!
The Living Waters Podcast
Ep. 396 - How Not to Be a Spectator Christian
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A spectator mindset has quietly crept into modern Christianity, leaving many believers watching the mission instead of participating. Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar challenge listeners to examine whether they have become passive observers rather than active followers of Christ. The guys explain that there is no such thing as a spectator Christian because every believer has been called to make disciples, serve the church, and engage in the work of the gospel. Too often, Christians excuse themselves from evangelism or ministry, believing those responsibilities belong to someone else. The conversation emphasizes that following Jesus requires action, obedience, and a willingness to step onto the front lines of spiritual battle.
The guys then explore how consumerism has shaped the way many people view the local church. Rather than seeing the church as a covenant community where believers serve one another, many approach it with the mindset of a customer evaluating a product. This perspective turns worship, fellowship, and discipleship into something to consume rather than something to contribute to. The guys explain that believers have been freed by the gospel not merely to attend church but to actively participate in God's unfolding story of grace.
The conversation also addresses practical barriers that keep believers from engaging in ministry. Fear, social anxiety, comparison, and distraction often prevent Christians from sharing the gospel or using their gifts. The guys discuss how technology has weakened many everyday interactions that help people build confidence and form meaningful relationships. Yet God has uniquely equipped every believer with gifts and opportunities to serve. Rather than comparing themselves to others, Christians are called to faithfully use whatever gifts God has provided and to trust that every member of the body plays a necessary role.
Finally, the guys focus on the Holy Spirit's empowering work and the practical steps believers can take to become more active in their faith. The same Spirit who empowered the early church continues to guide, strengthen, and equip believers today. The guys encourage listeners to put down distractions, invest their time intentionally, arrive ready to serve, and look for opportunities to share the gospel. In the end, the Christian life is not about watching others live for Christ but about actively participating in His mission, trusting that God uses ordinary obedience to accomplish extraordinary things.
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Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro
Worship That Leads To Witness
SPEAKER_04But if we're going to lift our hands in worship to God, let's be prepared to reach out our hands in evangelism for God. Otherwise, it's nothing but empty hypocrisy. Drawing near to God with your lips when your heart is far from Him. So you're willing to do what Jesus did. You're willing to reach out to the Lost to seek and to save that which is lost. One thing that uh I've noticed is that anything valuable has to be searched for. Diamonds uh or or pearls. Everything has to be dived for or dug for if it's precious. And that's exactly what you have to do with your own heart. So I don't have any gifts from God. Look, you were created in his image. There is a gift in the soil of your heart. Dig for it. And you might find you can speak to the lost, you can relate to an atheist. You'll have wisdom that you don't know that you had. That's what I find sometimes, and this isn't pride speaking, I'll stand back and say, I didn't know I knew that. You know, and that came out really smoothly, and you just say, Lord, thank you for helping me there. And that's the gifting manifesting itself as you begin to dig into the soil of your own heart.
Awkward Moments And Travel Stories
SPEAKER_08Funny, clever, witty, brilliant, and might I say enlightening. And no, I'm not talking about Ray, Mark, or Oscar. I'm obviously talking about the Southwest Airline Do You Want to Get Away commercials. I saw one this morning that uh, well, I say enlightening because it was, in one sense, it was a lady walking through an airport and uh her contact lens is out or you know, off center or whatever. You guys wear contact lenses, by the way? No. None of us? Superhuman vision. It's adorable.
SPEAKER_01Superhuman vision.
SPEAKER_08So she's trying to fix it, you know, whatever. It cuts, goes to her in the restroom, and she's in the mirror and she's starting to fix it, and finally, she fixes it. All of a sudden, all these men walk up to wash their hands. She went into the men's bathroom. Do you want to get away? And here's here was the enlightening part. I go, how in the world would they do a commercial like that these days? Where it's like, of course, anyone can go into any bathroom they want. And I look down, it said 14 years ago. Oh wow. How times have changed. Ray's done that, got into the girls' bathroom.
SPEAKER_04Oh, Scotty did.
SPEAKER_08Oh, I have too much. I'm just in Japan. You didn't seriously. Yeah. I mean, I if, yeah, the time I think I went in once and then I noticed there were no urinals. That's a sign. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Ray told me on the way to Japan that story, how you went into the girls' restroom. And I go, how who makes that mistake? And then when we were in Japan, I did that. There's a local restaurant. As you're leaving the men's restroom, it says women on the inside just to give you that fright. That's awesome. Really? Yeah. Oh, it works. It hits.
SPEAKER_06Good for them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08So I had one of those uh do you want to get away moments. I was just in Kentucky at the ARC. Rachel and I were speaking at their homeschool conference. And I was excited because we were going to go to my favorite, one of my favorite restaurants. McDonald's. Asian restaurants, let me say that. McDonald's. And it's called the Oriental Walk, and I love it every time I go and go there. Yeah, Chinese. I like dozens of times. And nice people. And so we put in, you know, I put it in GPS and we go in, and Ken Ham was already harassing me because he wants, he he just went there and I said, wait, I said this time. And anyway, we pull up and I realize it was the wrong one. Wrong walk. The wrong restaurant. I didn't know there was another Oriental walk. Oh, really? Turns out there's three. And so it took us another 20 minutes. But I told them six o'clock, and I walked in 5:56. Oh boy. So I was early. His fault. That's a real
A Childhood Report Card And Trauma
SPEAKER_08blessing. We found out Oscar used to be violent. Yeah, tell us so.
SPEAKER_04Tell us about your rapport.
SPEAKER_06Tell us about your well, we I was uh on the compelled podcast, which you were on. Yeah, and Ray and Mark were on, and so they did my testimony, and he asked Paul, the host, who's amazing, asked me to pull up old photos, which we don't have very many of me. But as I was doing that, I found my first grade report card. So yeah, uh it's how old were you at this time? Uh I was in first grade. I don't know, is that five or six years old? Yeah. Old six, usually. Six years old? Okay. Here it is. Oscar has been to the principal three times for violent behavior. He has difficulty staying on task. Uh, and then it says we discussed his need to complete his work and stay on task. We discussed the possibility of retention. Retention to first grade was recommended, but declined by parent. Aggressive behavior is still a problem.
SPEAKER_08Wow. And you were six.
SPEAKER_06Six years old.
SPEAKER_08That's kind of a mirror of my uh yeah.
SPEAKER_06I like I said, if we went to first grade together, we would either stab each other or start a game.
SPEAKER_01Serving the game together.
SPEAKER_08It is really, you know, I I've done that where I've looked at my previous report card before I got saved, or my worst one, which is a 0.32 grade point of it. Four F minus is a few. I've never understood.
SPEAKER_04Could you explain that? Because this is American Reports, and I've no idea what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_08Well, you get like there's a number attached to each letter grade. So an A is four, a B is three, a C is two, a D is one, F is zero. So they take them, they add up what you got, and they average them. So I had four Fs and two D minuses. So when you add those up and average them, it's 0.32. Oh boy. I'm like a hair away from full F. So yeah, and the D minuses were in P E and drama, right?
SPEAKER_04So if you if you guys could talk to six-year-olds that were like you, what would you advise them at your age now? Be more violent.
SPEAKER_08Stay away from taboo. I'd advise, yeah. I want to hear what you would say. No, no, you forgot. No, okay, I'll go. Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_06I had a 0.3 too. I have nothing to say. I would actually talk to the I'd rather say it to the adults in the room than the children. Right. Because I was being sexually molested during that time. Wow. And so what they saw was a violent kid. And I remember some of my teachers were just annoyed and frustrated. And uh, but I did have certain teachers. There were certain coaches that reached out, you know, and and gave me grace and and invested in me. And those are the ones that I think had some form of transformative power over the years, rather than the ones that were just frustrated.
SPEAKER_04So you were an angry six-year-old. Did something open that anger up?
SPEAKER_06Did it trigger it? He just stared about it. Yeah, probably the abuse. Yeah. Which my first career.
SPEAKER_04No, I mean when you're at school.
SPEAKER_06Oh.
SPEAKER_04What do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_06Well. Did anything trigger it at school like an authority figure teacher? I don't you know what? I remember I mean I got into a lot of fights growing up. I think I didn't know any other way of processing. And I had a stepdad that used to teach me that being a man was being able to get into a fight. And so I had a disillusional mindset and what it meant to look like to try to be a man. You know, I just I had a backwards way of understanding the world and no understanding of my emotions.
SPEAKER_08So praise God for his grace, man. Yeah, that's what I was saying. I I I've taken my past worst report card and compared it to the one when after I got saved, I got a 4.0 my first semester back. Just seeing the transformation.
SPEAKER_04That means they were all A's.
SPEAKER_08They were all A's.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Wow, that's incredible. God's grace. That's amazing what bribes can do.
SPEAKER_08Bribes and airports.
SPEAKER_01Maybe they were afraid of you.
SPEAKER_08Could have been. All right, it's time for a cool classy
Miscarriage Grief And Intrusive Thoughts
SPEAKER_08comment. This is from Sparrow1267. Subject line. 1265 was taken. One of my favorites, says the subject line. Love this podcast. It's hilarious and joyful and packed full of wisdom and truth. Listen for encouragement, challenge, and a good laugh. Thank you. Very encouraging, Sparrow. All right. Get ready for our special segment, quality questions. Oscar's gonna tackle this one today. This is from Antioch, California. That's all the info we have. Hello, Living Waters podcast team. I'm very thankful to have found this resource. I've known about Way the Master in the Living Waters Ministry for years now, but only came across the podcast last week. If you could please help clear something up for me, I've been deeply struggling with. I've struggled with intrusive thoughts here and there throughout my life. After losing my first baby in a miscarriage about a year ago, it was a very dark time. I felt I trusted God with life and death, but then went through this dark time afterwards and questioned how could he allow it. I had months of feeling better and am expecting a little daughter in a couple weeks. I have not made spending time with the Lord or in his word a priority for a long time. I've missed so many opportunities to reach out to the lost around me, but have chickened out for fear of man. I've had so many strong fears of losing this baby or my husband or other family members after losing our first baby. And I've feel I've been holding on so tightly to my blessings and not trusting God with my loved ones. As fears and intrusive thoughts have creeped back up this week, it has sent me spiraling and I feel so lost. I believe in the whole gospel as I truly feel I've I I had got saved years of fellowship with God and known Him, but cannot reconcile my disobedience and have a deep, deep fear that if I ever if I was never saved, that there is no hope for me now.
SPEAKER_06What was her name? Uh that we have no name here. Well, thank you for that. Um man, I I just I sense a deep amount of pain in that question. And having I've I've never lost a child, but I've um I've held a deceased baby. And so I know how painful that could be. And let me just say that it's important for us to explore two things. The question of what can or does God do about suffering is one of sovereignty. But there's another question that we often don't think about or don't talk about often that can be warming to our hearts. Because I think what God does about suffering helps us intellectually, but it doesn't help always our affection. And another area is his heart, which is the question is how does God feel about your suffering? And what I would say is that is that God suffers with those who suffers, He mourns with those who mourns. And I've said before in the past that no rational, loving parent would ever willingly let their child pass away. You know this having had a miscarriage. And yet, God is a father who hands his son over. His son goes to the cross and dies. Why does he do that? That tells us something about how he feels about our suffering. For first and foremost, as we know, it satisfies the wrath of God towards our sin, but it also solves the issue of suffering, that he would suffer so that one day none of us would suffer. It also does this, though, is that when you pray to God, you're praying to a parent who knows what it's like to lose a child. He has suffered alongside of you. He knows you're weeping. He is not the God who stands over and above suffering, he is the God who has himself suffered so that one day you would never suffer again. And um and I I would just say, man, like you're you use the phrase disobedience. Our our hearts as Christians, and we're gonna be talking about this actually in our next episode, I guess. Our hearts as Christians tend to grab a hold of things that we idolize. And sometimes family, loved ones, their health, or things that like having lost a child, you might hold on so tightly for that. And I would just I would pray a prayer of surrender in that area to a God is who is good, to a God who loves you, who to a God who dies for you so that you would know him and love him, so that one day every tear would be wiped away. Um that is the God in which you are surrendering those areas of your life to. And I would I would encourage you to do that through prayer, through prayer and repentance. And uh yeah, I'm really sorry for your loss.
SPEAKER_08Amen. Great answer, Oscar. And thank you for writing in, friend. Uh wish we had your name here, but uh yeah, we hope you take that to heart. All right.
SPEAKER_04What about the intrusive thoughts that you asked about?
SPEAKER_08Oh, the intrusive thoughts. Yes, yeah, yeah. You know, here's the thing. Um our minds are are interesting, our brains are really uh very intriguing when you think about the things that can pop in. But I love what I think it was Martin Luther said that we can't keep a bird from flying over our head, but we can keep it from nesting in our hair. You can't help the thoughts that pop into your mind. You can't, as a fish, help the line that drops in front of you with the bait, but you have a choice whether to take it or not. And I think sometimes when we get overly consumed with thinking about not thinking about something in particular, we think about it more. So I've just learned when those thoughts pop into my mind, I say, look, I know that I have a sinful nature and that plays some role into it, but I also know that there are temptations that come my way. So anything that's of me, Lord, forgive me, and those things that come my way and try to lure me, I'm just gonna not give them the time of day. Oh, there it is again, whatever, and keep going. Before you know it, you may later go, oh, that stupid thought that popped in. I don't even know how it left. So just press on. Philippians 4.8, whatever the things are true, noble, just pure, lovely, of good report. Whatever's praiseworthy, meditate on those things. So front load your heart and mind with that truth that comes from God and his word, and then he'll help you to fight those things.
SPEAKER_04So I'd like to say something. Please. That's why I'm not going to be able to do that. Could you say something, right? No, him say anything. Um I get obtrusive thoughts all the time, and they're uncontrollable. You think you've dealt with them and they come back again and again and again and again and pile up on you. So what I do, and I've done it for years, and it really does work, is that realize that you're not wrestling against flesh and blood, but against principalities and power, spiritual wickedness in high places. Satan's gonna come back at you to wear you down and discourage you. So what I do is I create the most positive prayer based in scripture I can think of. And I memorize it. So whenever that negative thought comes about that particular thing that normally gets me down, it stirs me to pray this positive prayer. Wow. So when Satan comes with a negative, it immediately turns into a positive. When he comes and says, Oh, you're reminding me to pray this positive prayer. And that really will back off because he's strengthening you by being an alarm clock to remind you to have faith in God. When I'm talking about a positive prayer, just say, Look, thank you. Your word says we're not wrestling against flesh and blood, and I know this is demonic, so every time it comes to me, I'm just gonna pray that you will open doors for me to glorify your name, make me bold, give me wisdom, give me courage to speak that which you have me to speak, and just write it the most positive thing that Satan would hate to see, memorize it or even write it down, and whenever the negative thought comes, pray it regularly, and soon you'll do it automatically. And that alarm clock will turn on negative and door positive.
SPEAKER_08That's so good. Yeah, I love that. May we do that and learn to have that default response. So good stuff, right?
SPEAKER_07All right, and now a radically revolutionary resource.
SPEAKER_08This podcast is brought to you by the tract sample pack with samples of all of our tracts. What's that?
SPEAKER_04No, it was just a genuine sincere. Oh, nice. But yeah, the sample pack um sample track pack is actually full of samples of all our tracks in a pack. Wow.
SPEAKER_08In one pack. Just one pack, yeah.
SPEAKER_04I haven't really counted it. It has a lot of track. But they're uh, yeah, they're and they're unique tracks, and it's just good to lay them on a table and then say which one would I feel comfortable giving out? And a lot of them are really funny.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, mucho mucho. All right, and yes, we Mucho Mucho. Lots, lots. And we do have the Living Waters mug. Yes, we do have them. We have a new one that's gonna be coming out here in due time. Be on the lookout for it. Don't forget the Evidence Study Bible on Living Waters TV, all that LivingWaters.com. And don't forget the podcast YouTube channel.
Why Spectator Christianity Is Dangerous
SPEAKER_08All right, friends, today we're talking about how to be, not to be, how to be a spectator Christian. How not to be. Well, we're done. A spectator Christian. Mark, you're sitting there spectating. What are you spectating?
SPEAKER_01I'm trying to check in for my flight for the UK tomorrow morning.
SPEAKER_08Are you really in the UK?
SPEAKER_01Tomorrow morning, bright and early.
SPEAKER_08Oh, Mark. That's exciting. Let's make this a short podcast against the academy. Just kidding.
SPEAKER_01Uh sight scene. Oh, I mean speaking. I'm speaking at our uh UK Ambassador Academy John Harris.
SPEAKER_04That's wonderful, Mark. Yeah. It must be great to travel.
SPEAKER_01Ray, would you go to the Ambassador's Academy in the UK? Of course I would.
SPEAKER_08During the millennium. Offline. Yeah. So that's actually a good, good segue there. Mark is not spectating, he's traveling to share.
SPEAKER_04Wonderful.
SPEAKER_08I mean, guys, uh, there are a lot of things that come in between execution of what we know is right and actually like getting there, right? There's a desire, there's there's the fulfillment, and then there's all that stuff.
SPEAKER_04Well, there's the execution and there's being executed. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, like that.
SPEAKER_01I don't know the difference.
SPEAKER_08No, you know, the the other day, Rachel and I were getting ready to go to uh to the ark, and I literally started to laugh as as I was packing. I'm like, I cannot believe how many times I've packed my bag over the course of my life. You know, it's a process. I mean, you you know, you go through all that, but but yeah. Well, and you pack like eight bags for every trip. Not that few. We've seen it, not that few three weeks in advance. Yeah, not that, not that soon, not that late. Not that late, yeah. So, anyway, guys, but but this is man, this is so so key. The the spectator Christian life. I remember as a new Christian, I would hear about that. They would always say, Stop being, what is it? Pew warmers. Pew warmers. Yeah, don't be a pew warmer.
SPEAKER_06Seat filler.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. And I always thought, what, what, what's that? Why would you? I don't understand.
SPEAKER_04Isn't every Christian like on fire for the way to get rid of a pew warmer is to electrify the pews. How do you do that, Ray? You just get a someone in the pulpit that's hot for God and says, What are you doing? No such thing as a spectator Christian. Because you're not. The analogy was spectator Christian is for sports. That's not what we're involved in. We're in a warfare. You're a soldier, and if you stay in the barracks, you're a coward. That's if you're a spectator, a spectator soldier, that's cowardice. And the Bible condemns cowardice in the book of Revelation. So have courage. Wow. Do that again, Ray, with the emphasis when you went coward like that.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, medic.
SPEAKER_01You know, Jesus never said, watch me make disciples. He said, follow me. All right, and I'll make you a fisherman. Thank you. And so I remember we went to a Green Bay Packer football game uh a while back, and I went inside.
SPEAKER_04I got so bruised in that game.
SPEAKER_01The locker room. Yeah. And inside the locker room, there was a playbook from the Green Bay Packers. And those things are golden. You cannot get them. You cannot lose them. I remember when I played ball. If you had your playbook, uh you turned it in, everything was good. If you did not turn in your playbook, you were in massive trouble because that playbook are all the plays that you plan on running against the other team.
SPEAKER_04So that's why they lost you.
SPEAKER_01They entrusted that into the hands of teenagers.
SPEAKER_06I was thinking when he said it when I played ball, he was like a little two-year-old playing with the ball. Not that old.
SPEAKER_01Right. But I remember I picked it up and I thought, all right, this is the playbook against Detroit Lions. That's who they were playing. And I had this temptation. I want this. And it was somebody left it on the table. And I said somebody's going to get busted for it. But that playbook, right, that is our blueprint in order to how to handle the enemy.
SPEAKER_04Well, we have a pray book. We have a pray book. Oh. Ooh, bars. Pride. I can never win that.
SPEAKER_06This might fall on deaf ears at this table, but I know people love this show. There's this Seinfeld episode where Kramer is hired to be a seat filler for the Oscars. And I don't know if you guys know this. This is a real thing. So, like when people get up to go to the restroom or when they are backstage preparing to go do their monologue, they have like actors fill the seats so that no seats are empty when the cameras roll through. That's a real thing. How vain. So Kramer acts as a seat filler, and the whole joke is that he kind of like someone who he's sitting next to wins an Oscar, and the group rushes to the stage and he gets stuck in the group. He goes to the stage, he like gets the award with them, and then he spends the entire night going around town holding on to this award, acting as though he's the winner of this Oscar.
SPEAKER_08Why is Ray popping into the at the end of the episode?
SPEAKER_06The producers finally confront him and are like, hey, you're you are not a producer. That doesn't belong to you. I can't help but wonder how often those seat filler in the pews get faked out and think they're a part of the group that's doing God's work. And you talk about this all the time with true and false conversion. How many people are spectator Christians because they're actually not Christians? Wow, that's so good, Oscar.
SPEAKER_08Um yeah, I I love that that imagery of doing that. I remember years ago I taught a message on Ephesians 5 1, which says, therefore be imitators of God as dear children. And I was talking about how you know the world has imitation. And what you guys remember, I think when I was a kid, we would call them posers. Poser. Use that in your day too. Dude, that dude's a poser, right? And what's a poser? It's someone who's basically poser. They're dressing like a skater or like a surfer. They're talking the lingual, but they don't actually It's like me when I wear my cowboy boots. Yeah. Total poser. Yeah. And uh and I talked about that. There's there is that one element, right? In the sense that, in essence, like that is what someone who's claiming to be a Christian and yet isn't walking that active lifestyle as a Christian. They're a poser. They have the name and the title, but they're not living the life.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and they're pretending to wear a parachute.
SPEAKER_08Oh.
SPEAKER_04Explain. Well, you jump without it, and you think I made a little mistake. I should have put it on and put on the Lord Jesus Christ. I cannot help it. You'd never get me parachuting, but I'm always talking.
SPEAKER_08You're always talking.
SPEAKER_07Amen and say that on a plane.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. But but no, it's a it's a fitting analogy. And you say that, but I know people are listening. What do you mean parachute doesn't have his parachute, pretends to have a parachute on? Why? What's the parachute, right?
SPEAKER_04Jesus is the parachute. The Bible says, put on the Lord Jesus Christ. And when you trust your life to a parachute, it's such an analogy because you have to pass through a door, face a law that's gonna spread you across the ground at 120 miles an hour if you jump without a parachute. So you need to put your total commitment and trust in that parachute, and that's what we need to do with Jesus. Trust Him with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength because you don't know when you're gonna be sucked out that door.
SPEAKER_08Wow. Yeah. So let's talk about the areas where Christians can be spectators. I I think we should begin with the obvious
Evangelism Is Every Christian’s Job
SPEAKER_08one. Mark, maybe you can open this up for us, and that is evangelism.
SPEAKER_01Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_08Right?
SPEAKER_01The perspective of the place to start.
SPEAKER_08The perspective of that's not my calling, that's not my gifting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And what is the Ephesians verse that God has given to the church?
SPEAKER_08Yeah, and he himself, Ephesians 4, and he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry. For the equipping of the church.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. For the work of the ministry, right? Yeah. So when we say that I'm not an evangelist, we begin to say, well, I'm not like Ray Comfort, right? I can't share the way he shares. And we confuse the fact that God is not calling us necessarily to be equipping other people how to do it. Maybe that is not your gifting. Maybe you cannot communicate in that way. But we are all called to evangelize. And the example that you've often given is, you know, I don't have the gift of feeding the homeless or helping the poor. Starving children. Starving children. That's not me. Well, that that's that's a silly approach. We're all called to open up our mouths. It's like saying, you know, I'm not much of a chef, so I'm not going to take care of my two-year-old. You know, I can't cook. No, we're all called to serve, and we treat uh Christianity kind of like a spectator sport. That that person has the gifting to be able to do that. That person has the ability. That person doesn't have the testimony that I have. So all my life I've said, here am I, send him, because he doesn't have the things that I have, which are these impediments. And that that's not the way it is. Right? We need to be active, we need to be on the front lines. I remember uh when we were assistant pastors easy uh at a church, and I remember sitting there thinking, right after church, everybody takes off and they go out to eat wherever they're gonna go, which is a great thing, go get fellowship. But I was thinking, what if we kept everybody in-house in the sense that, hey, people are gonna spend the money anyways, let's start a barbecue ministry. So I went to the senior manister, the senior, the senior pastor, and I said, Hey, we should have a barbecue where everybody can hang out with each other, they can get to know each other, and when guests do come, we can get inside their lives and we can give uh free coupons to people that have come that are visiting, they could have a free lunch. And uh, he's all great, run with it. And I'm like, Oh, whoa, no, no, this is for you. You know, maybe you can figure out how to run with that. He turned that around and he said, Listen, well, what am I supposed to do with this? You run with the idea the church will get behind it. And so I did. So I started uh the barbecue ministry at this church, and then it was every single Sunday um there were at least 100 people that would stick back.
SPEAKER_04That was amazing that increased the size of the church. It it's not away in one sense.
SPEAKER_01So we had hamburgers, we had hot dogs, it turned into carne asada and uh skewers and all kinds of stuff. And it was it was a big ministry because it took a lot of work. But that is the example of not being a spectator, yeah, but doing something. So you might have this great idea. Don't go to the pastor and say, you need to do this, but say, hey, I was thinking about this, and I think we could implement it like this. What are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_08Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting too because when you think about, let's go to the next thing, like service within the body of Christ. Part of that can be evangelism, and then there are so many other ways to serve. But
Stop Outsourcing Ministry To Leaders
SPEAKER_08but there's that that perspective of, you know, they they they've got it handled, they'll take care of it. And Oscar, you speak a lot to this. It's it's that mindset of consumerism. I'm here, I'm here to to get, to, to be served, to to be taken care of, versus the recognition that man, I I have a part in this body. I'm called to play a role. And and because the the body of Christ is a living organism, again, we get stuck into that. It's a place, the church, I go to church versus I'm a part of the church.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I think uh I think there's a huge difference between consumer culture and covenant communities. And every single one of us, we have to admit that consumeristic culture is sort of in the air that we breathe. Like everywhere that we go and everything that we interact with, we are a little meme monster and people are trying to sell us something. They're trying to sell us a membership to their subscription service. And when we subscribe, it's like, all right, do you have the entertainment that's worth my dollar? Uh, if I go to a venue, it's like, did the music work? Did my was my seat comfortable? All of these kind of questions are because I'm a consumer. And it's interesting when you when you listen to people talk after service, they often will dissect the service in the same way. Like, how was the service? Ah, the the sermon was good, but a little long. Oh, I didn't get to sit in the seat I wanted to sit in. Oh, I miss Pastor So-and-so in the way he used to preach. Oh, I I wish he, you know, I wish the song hit a little harder. I wish he spent less time on point two. I wish he would talk about this thing over here more often. We are talking about, we are dissecting church on a Sunday like a consumer. When in reality, what we're actually invited into as Christians is a covenant community. Sundays is not made for your entertainment. Sundays is where God gives himself to his people through the word, through communion, and through prayer. That is the primary purpose of Sunday. Let me say it again. Sunday is where God gives himself to his people. And when we start taking on the mindset of a covenant community, I think it changes the way we dissect our Sunday moments. Like the questions that I try to ask on a Sunday is more like, how were you reminded of the gospel today? Or of something that you just brought up, which is like, how were you able to be used by God this Sunday? Those are the kind of questions that we should be asking ourselves after a Sunday service because we recognize we're walking in this Sunday, not as a com as a consumer culture, but as a covenant community given to one another to lift each other up towards the goodness and glory of God. So good.
SPEAKER_08You know, there's such a bent, I think, by default, in our hearts and minds as believers, we've almost been groomed this way to immediately bristle and put up our defenses whenever anyone talks about like our obligations in the body of Christ. And our pastor Mark, Pastor Philip DeCorsi from Kendra Community Church, talked about obligations recently. And it was really powerful the way that he put it. No, God has given us obligations, and that's that's a good thing. But we bristle because I think immediately our minds associate that with a works-based salvation, which it's not, right? We we can be zealous for good works because God has created us for that, because we've been saved by grace, we've been set free, and that's a good and positive thing. But it's funny how in the world they don't act that way. Anyone who's a part of a club, right, or an organization, they have dues, they've got they've got roles, they've got committees, they've got certain meetings they've got to attend, you know. But it's like in the body, no, no, no, brother, grace, grace, you know, of course it's grace, but but we should be eager to to serve and not sit on the sidelines.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I mean, the difference between it is it is a calling, it's an act of obedience, but also you're free through the gospel, you are freed from consumerism to covenant community. It's not like it's not just you're obligated, it's that you've been freed from the shackles of sin to participate in God's unfolding story of grace. Yeah, think about that reality. Like, why would you not want to be a part of that? You know, I can't remember if I said this here in a previous episode, but did I mention The Last Starfighter? Have I talked about that movie? Probably we
Consumer Church Versus Covenant Community
SPEAKER_06didn't listen. We don't pay attention. I know you don't. All right, so The Last Starfighter, 1984, it came out the year I was born. And uh, but I I remembered watching it as a kid, and it's great. Like in this movie, these two kids, I think they're in Oklahoma or something, they live in a they live in a trailer park. Um, and like at the beginning of the movie, they're like, man, we gotta get out of here. We want to live big lives, we want to go to LA. You know, that's that's their big dream to go to LA. And then through this, through through the movie, the boy gets taken up into space, he becomes the starfighter, he fights back evil, he saves the universe from like the demise of whatever the evil emperor is, and then he comes back down in his starship to go get his girl. And she doesn't see the starship. She walks into the mobile, he walks into the mobile home park and he finds her and he goes, Hey, you want to get out of here? And she goes, Where are we going? And he says, To the stars. And she goes, What are you talking about? The stars. And he goes, Yeah, didn't you want to get out of here? And she goes, Yeah, I just wanted to go to LA. See, so many of us are settling for LA when the Lord is offering us the stars. He saves you from your sin and then puts you on mission to be a part of his unfolding story of reconciling the world to himself. Why would you not want to be a part of that?
SPEAKER_04Movie analogies by Dawson.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, you know, Ray, I would love for you to speak to this because I was thinking back, you get saved, you come back from that surfing trip with your friends. How quickly did you begin to really get active in the service of God's kingdom?
SPEAKER_04It took about four seconds.
SPEAKER_08I am because I've never probed this deeply with you. Like, so you get back, how quickly did you join a church?
SPEAKER_04Immediately. Uh I the guy that led me to Christ. What church do you go to? I'd like to be involved. That's when they sent a pastor out or someone from their church to take a Bible study in our home. So I was into fellowship within two days, I guess. They started a Bible study that quickly. In my house, yeah. I didn't even know the guy. He just stepped in and shook my hand, stepped into our house without asking permission. He says, Start a Bible study. And then he had behind him about, you know, a dozen kids from their church. What? And we just started a Bible study, and it was just amazing. It went on for ages. One thing I'd like to mention is when I became a well, when I was a kid, I had no talent whatsoever, absolutely none. I couldn't jump for some reason. I didn't like hurdles, I didn't like high jump. For some reason, I couldn't do long jump, and then it's a reason for all this.
SPEAKER_06Why are you saying had like in ass tents? But for you it was called the extra high jump.
SPEAKER_04That's uh, yeah, I went under the hurdles. I'd win the race. Um but I I couldn't sing, I couldn't dance, I still can't even clap. I've been in churches, black churches in the south, where they're all swaying and doing that, and I'm just really trying hard to clap, and I can't do it. Uh but when I became a Christian, I realized that God uses those who lack talent. That's his that's what that's his that's his expertise, might I say. Yeah, it's just you start a podcast. But you just say, here I am, Lord Lord, send me. I've got nothing but a love for you, and I've got gratitude, I want to serve you. And God picks you up. He goes past the sons of Jesse and goes for the little shepherd boy out in the back, and that's the principle that God uses. That means God can use anything. If you've got talent, he's gonna pass over you. If you've got no talent, you're God's material. And there's another thing I've been thinking about recently: if you can't swim and you fall into the ocean, don't panic. This is a real key, it's it's scientifically backed. Relax and breathe deeply because your lungs, if you do that, will act as buoyants. They will hold you up and your head will stay there and you won't drown if you relax. Now, evangelism for us makes us want to panic. It's just like I've fallen into this and I'm just so uncomfortable, I'm gonna panic. Don't panic, take a deep breath, and you will be upheld by God's hand. And it's such a key. If if you're fearful and you panic, it means you don't trust God. And that's what you've got to do every time you reach out to the lost. Just say, Lord, I'll not panic. I'm gonna trust you, I'm gonna float because you're upholding me with your hand. Wow.
SPEAKER_08You know, trust. I'm I'm glad you mentioned that. Oh, by the way, Ray, before I forget, you talk about like not doing hurdles and stuff. Did you ever try to do the uh the limbo?
SPEAKER_04The limbo? Oh, yeah, one there.
SPEAKER_08I was gonna say you'd be great at strong. That's a funny thing, the limbo. Seriously.
SPEAKER_01It's like in the people that win, it's like this high off the ground. It's crazy. Ray, you now you can't, you may not be able to sing, but you can whistle. I've heard you whistle and you're tremendous.
SPEAKER_04I can I can whistle. I don't know why I can whistle, but you know, God's never really used that.
SPEAKER_08Maybe because you're prideful about it? Because I just love the whistle. I whistle together.
SPEAKER_01I can play the triangle. You just have to tell me when to hit it.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. Um, but yeah, you know, you you think about all the the things that that people struggle with fear over. It's not just sharing the gospel. I mean, the whole social anxiety thing, it's a real thing. Like even people not wanting to serve because they have to interact with people. Some of us who are maybe a little more extroverted, we may not deal with that per se, and uh, we don't, it's hard to understand.
SPEAKER_04But social media has made that a hundred times worse. You know, I I I I cannot tell you how many times as I go past kids in the local college, they've got earphones on, and I I stop and they'll take them off, and they're uh they're freaking out because I'm talking to them, because I've stopped them, and they're just not used to that. And uh, and that's what social media has done. It's put people in a little room by themselves.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, Oscar, you taught you actually you hit on that a lot about what what social media has done in creating in people this new dynamic of their perception of themselves, their their ability to interact with others. Speak to that.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, uh, there's a great book written by Jonathan Hyatt. He's not a believer, but he's incredibly helpful. Um, and and and he uses science-backed information. Some of it we can get behind as Christians, other of it you have to take with a grain of salt because he talks about evolution. But let's talk about the benefits of that book. One of the things that he points out in The Anxious Generation is that he says, like for all of human history, our childhood, we have these micro interactions where we're out on the streets, we're playing ball with our friends, and there's a disagreement. Who's, you know, was it out, was it not out? And there's no parental supervision. And kids are forced to interact with one another to determine the final outcome and then move forward. And if they're unwilling, then they lose the opportunity to play together, right? They there's like this natural process for people to figure it out. And so throughout childhood, and I think it's important to take accountability as parents raising this next generation, it's not just social media, it's it's that when we hand kids the phones at such an early age, when we give them access to social media, um, what happens is we think that our kids are safe because they're inside our homes in front of a screen and they're not out and about on the playgrounds, unsupervised with friends, bumping shoulders against one another, when actually God means to use those 10,000 micro interactions in a child's life to prepare them for adulthood, for a manager that doesn't respond the way they're used to responding, for um a you know, a teacher to say something and you not feel micro-aggressed. Like the reason why a new generation is coming forward in the workplace and in college and they feel hypersensitive is because they haven't had those 10,000 interactions. And here's the beautiful beautiful good news about going back to the church is that these kids, you mentioned freaked out. They are freaked out when you talk to them, but they also long for it. Why? Because they're made for community and they've only ever known an online community. And this is actually where I think we see a resurgence in the church amongst younger generation is because they're dying for community. AI can't give it to them. Instagram, TikTok cannot give it to them. They need embodied interactions with human beings, and by the grace of God, the church is a great place for that to happen.
SPEAKER_04You know, one thing that's being lost is hands-on creativity. Yeah. When I look at my childhood, it was filled with making huts. We would climb trees and make huts, and it was so much fun. We'd make bows and arrows, crossbows and long bows, and all sorts of stuff. And it was just and kites just absolutely love making a kite and going flying kite. They're such simple things, but we were able to be creative with our own hands, and that seems to be lacking in this generation.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, and and I think it carries over then into the church. So people begin to become conditioned to just being almost in a silo on an island by themselves, interacting without having to really interact with people. So that element of serving becomes lost, you know.
SPEAKER_01So, how do you how do you go from the place of taking maybe some what is the litmus test, perhaps, to see if you
The Litmus Test: Time And Treasure
SPEAKER_01are a spectator Christian? Because nobody thinks, no, we don't think we are. Right? None of us thinks that we are a spectator Christian. No, I'm going to church, I'm I'm inside the word, uh I'm tithing. I'm how what is the litmus test that one can take to see if they are truly a spectator and not a laborer? That's what you do with your time.
SPEAKER_04I think that's the key. And what you do with your checkbook, um, how committed you are to the kingdom of God. Are you willing to let go of that which you love most? And time is what we love most, and pleasure is what we love most. We want to um just enjoy ourselves, but are we willing to take up a cross daily, deny ourselves and follow what God wants us to do? So, what do you do? You look at what Jesus did, where he went, and you're gonna do the same, follow in his steps, and then read the book of Acts. And they are, you know, one thing that we can do as spectators is pacify a guilty conscience regarding their loss by worshiping God, just worshiping the Lord, just giving our whole heart and singing our whole heart out. But if we're gonna lift our hands and worship to God, let's be prepared to reach out our hands in evangelism for God. Otherwise, it's nothing but empty hypocrisy, drawing near to God with your lips when your heart is far from Him. So you're willing to do what Jesus did. You're willing to reach out to the last to seek and to save that which is lost. Um, one thing that uh I've noticed is that anything valuable has to be searched for. You don't find gold lying around on a sidewall.
SPEAKER_01I did on your desk. I found a piece of gold. Oh, that was the gold coin.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, I'm glad that's fake, fake God. Or diamonds, uh, or or pearls. Everything has to be dived for or dug for uh if it's if it's uh precious, and that's exactly what you have to do with your own heart. So I don't have any gifts from God. Look, you were created in his image. There is a gift in the soil of your heart. Dig for it. And you might find you can speak to the last, you can relate to an atheist, you you'll have wisdom that you don't know that you had. That's what I find sometimes, and this isn't pride speaking, I'll stand back and say, I didn't know I knew that. You know, and and that came out really smoothly, and you just say, Lord, thank you for helping me there. And that's the gifting manifest master manifesting itself as you begin to dig into the soil of your own heart.
SPEAKER_08Amen. Yeah, and you know, scripture speaks to the fact that the Spirit gives gifts as he wills to each of us for the sake of the service of the body of Christ. But Ray, to your point again, and what I referenced earlier, uh Romans 1, 14 to 15, where Paul says, I am under obligation to Greeks, to barbarians, to wise, to the foolish. I'm under obligation to say, yeah, to what? Share the gospel and bring them the truth. But that's not a bad thing when when it's tied into the the privilege that that is, that we get to, but it but it's our calling, it's a part of what God has called us to do.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, there's no greater honor than to serve the Lord. Yeah, you know, I I look at Paul's words, I'm not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I noticed that when I became a Christian, I was absolutely not ashamed of the gospel. I put scripture on my car, put scripture on a bus outside our house, put it on the wall, front window of my business, and I thought, I am not ashamed. How could I ever be this ashamed of the name of Jesus Christ? When the world may look down on us because we belong to him. We say, and I'm so proud in a humble way to belong to the Lord.
SPEAKER_01And there's been plenty of times when I've gone out witnessing, maybe you guys can attest to this as well, where you are just nervous as nervous can be. And you can think of a million things to redeem the time. And at this time, you're going out, you approach the person, but once you engage in that conversation, once somebody uh raises an accusation against Jesus or how the Bible's not to be trusted, it's like you, your the decibel levels begin to go up. You don't care who's listening, and you now have the boldness of a lion to engage in that dialogue. So you started off nervous. What what do we say? We go out, dragging our feet. Is that what it is?
SPEAKER_04Clicking your heels. Clicking our heels.
SPEAKER_01Right? It is an irksome task. Yeah, that's spurgeon. And so we we get nervous to go out. We it's not something that we necessarily want to do, but man, we get so excited in the middle of it, as we're doing and as we're coming home. Let's just park on dragging feet, clicking heels.
SPEAKER_04It always is the same. You never go out clicking your heels. You always go out dragging your heels or dragging your feet and you come back clicking your heels. When you've shared the gospel, the everlasting gospel with a person who's sitting, not going anywhere, sitting in the shadow of death, and they appreciate it. You come back and go, Wow, well pretty much.
SPEAKER_08I'm getting flashbacks, guys, to when we used to go to Santa Monica.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I was too. Remember that?
SPEAKER_08And it was such a joy. Like we'd go there, and there was a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. I would often feel when I go back there, it's like PTSD. It just comes back. Because, and especially there, man, it was so dark. We'd go every Friday night. Every Friday night, we would drive out there. It was like an hour or something.
SPEAKER_01And Ray would buy like a large pizza for us. We'd go in there and get it. And remember the homeless lady who would get it?
SPEAKER_08Yeah. But like we'd go and we'd all be apprehensive and God would move. But my my greatest joy was on the ride back home. We'd be so like, oh, look what God did. We'd, you know, we'd get something to eat. We're rejoicing, fellowshipping. What a joy to do that after laboring in the field.
SPEAKER_01You know, made the food sweeter, made it the fellowship sweeter.
SPEAKER_04And we're sort of bubbly, and when a cop stops us and says, You've been drinking, I say milk.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it wasn't like that exactly, but yeah. That's when I was driving Ray's van. We're coming back from witnessing. We get pulled over by the police. I mean, you have a van full of people and it's late at night. I don't know what it was. Past midnight, and the police officer asked me, you know, have you been drinking? I said, No. And then Ray interrupts and says, That's not true. And I'm like, wait, what? Mark, you had you had a drink earlier. And I'm like, what? I go, Ray. Well, like, what are you talking about? I didn't drink at all. And I'm not only do I did not have a drink there, but I just don't drink. And uh Ray said, You had some milk earlier. And it made the police officer laugh. And then we were able to go our way. But uh Ray Comfort, letter of the law.
SPEAKER_08Seriously. The fact the guy let you go is a miracle. Yeah. So, you know, I think too that there are times when people can look and say, But I'm not the pastor. I'm not super evangelist, you know, uh Emma over there. I'm not that guy who who's, you know, so extroverted and as such a people person. And I I just think we need to remember what Paul said in in 1 Corinthians 12, verse 20. He said, But now indeed there are many members, yet one body, and the eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of you, nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. No, much rather those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor, and our presentable parts have greater modesty, but our presentable parts have no need. But God composes the body, having given greater honor to the part which lacks it, that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it, or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. Oscar, I love that. The same care. Man, just it gives me the chills that thought of like the body of Christ caring for each other. You know what with ants, when you when you see what ants do, there are certain ants that have different jobs. Some clean the nest, others help the bee. You know, and she lives in an apartment. Ant B. Um, but but that whole that whole aspect of like, don't look and say, oh, I'm who am I? What gives up? He's saying here, no, that the ones that seem to have less significance are significant. We need every member in the body, and the goal is care.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. I think a big part of it too, which is something we haven't talked about, is our dependence on the Holy Spirit. Amen. Because your pastor, Ray, Mark, Easy, uh, they do God's
Dependence On The Holy Spirit
SPEAKER_06work not in their own power, weight, or wisdom, but in the power of the Holy Spirit. And maybe, maybe there's Christians out there right now that just feel like their life is chaotic. They they don't understand like their role in God's kingdom. And let me just remind you that the first time we see the spirit show up is in the Old Testament. It's in the first chapter of the first book, and the Spirit's job is to bring order out of chaos. That is what he does. Then throughout the entire Old Testament, that is essentially what what the Spirit is doing, bringing order out of chaos. Then here's something that's very interesting, uh which honestly, I just I just learned this having prepared a sermon a few weeks ago, which is that the realization that Jesus did not rely on his own power to work out his miracles, but rather he relied on the power of the Holy Spirit. He willingly had dependence on the Spirit to do God's work on earth. Then what happens? Uh, Jesus dies, resurrects, ascends, and we learn at Pentecost that that same Holy Spirit power that brought order out of chaos in the Old Testament, that that empowered Jesus to work out his miracles, descends upon the disciples, and then the rest of the church calls his it calls his church the royal priesthood. In other words, we are a continuation of the work of Acts. And something that's so fascinating to me, and we just have to be honest that we don't well, I let me be honest. When I first read this, I struggle to believe that it's true. And that is when Jesus says that there's gonna be a helper and it's going to be better. Like if I had to choose me and the Holy Spirit or me and Jesus, I'm gonna choose me and Jesus. And yet that's a lack of faith because Jesus is telling us that the helper is going to be better. And it turns out to be true because in Acts, when Jesus dies and ascends, the church is three to five hundred. By the time you get to the end of Acts, it's three thousand. And now here we are today. It's a countless if you count all the Christians throughout church history. In other words, the work of the Spirit is not less potent today just because we're 2,000 years removed for Pentecost for Jesus. The the power of the Holy Spirit is equally as ferocious and potent in our lives when we depend on the Spirit to do the God to do God's work. In other words, the problem for that Christian, it's like I'm not like the pastor, isn't that you don't have the skill set of the pastor, it's that you're not depending on the spirit, it's power to move in and through you.
SPEAKER_04Amen.
SPEAKER_08There's been such a cultural shift in the body of Christ when it comes to dependence on the Holy Spirit. And it's the two extremes we've talked about many times. It's the crazy charismania, oh, I don't want anything to do with that, you know. Um, you know, or it's the crazy charismania. I'm just, you know, I'm I'm everything is is uh a devil under a rock and rebuking Satan, this and that, and the other, versus like, no, the Spirit was given to us for a purpose, our dependence upon him. He empowers us, he guides us, he enlightens us, and and yet oftentimes we we kind of try to function without him, you know, and that's that's crazy. Um I love this quote. I know you'll like this right by JC Ryle. The true Christian was intended by Christ to prove all his life that his faith was not a mere thing of sentiment, but a thing of action. It's so good. And we've seen this, right, with the world. You'll get actors, uh, you'll get these big corporate CEOs that are multimillionaires, some of them billionaires, and you'll always hear them talk about how they want to make a difference. I want to give back. You know, some of them will retire and then they'll come back out of retirement because hey, what was I doing? I I wanna I want to have an impact. But but it within the kingdom of God, this is where impact reaches its apex. This is where it really matters because now you're you're connected to to the God who gave you life, the one who who gave you eternal life, and now you you're able to have eternal impact on other people.
SPEAKER_04You want to say it a billionaires, get them in a room. If you do that for me, I'd I'd love to preach to them. Um, what are you trying to do? You end up with a gold coffin, it's been done. The pharaohs had gold coffins and just got dug up by grave robbers. It didn't really help much. And everything you're doing is vanity, it's fuel futility, chasing the wind, as Solomon so rightly said. So um, when you put your efforts into the kingdom of God, you are looking at things that are invisible and are eternal. And that's what thrills me about being a Christian. Before I was a Christian, um, I was running around doing things, but it was all futile. And when I became a Christian, suddenly purpose settled on me. Yeah. And I thought, wow, that which I'm doing is going to stay. It means something. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, are there what are some good biblical examples of people who stepped out of the boat, right? We think of Peter, who were just active in their Christian walk. Can you think of anyone, Ray? Who had active faith in the Bible?
SPEAKER_04Uh the Apostle Paul. Peter Piper, Pika, Pika, Paper Papers. Well, you know, Mark, I I think of Oh, that's horrible. I haven't even looked at that.
SPEAKER_08I think of guys like, you know, Barnabas.
SPEAKER_04The son of comfort.
SPEAKER_01Set him up and he just drops the bigger.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it was. I haven't looked, I hadn't seen those notes yet. Uh Barnabas was the son of comfort. Did you know that? His name means comfort.
SPEAKER_08Comfort encouragement. And so does Noah. Yeah. Which is really neat. Yeah. And, you know, I I think of Barnabas' initiative, like with uh with Mark, that that had abandoned them in the work and Paul didn't want to take him and Barnabas wanted to. You know, that that stepping up as one example. Because again, we're always looking at the oh man, I'm just gonna go and I'm gonna preach to millions and I'm gonna write books, I'm gonna great, if that's what God has for you. But but no, like be faithful in the little things, be faithful in what's before you.
SPEAKER_04But isn't that a minister um um mystery between the two of them? There was great contention. I mean, they blew up on each other, it sounds like scripture doesn't say. And you wonder what what that was about.
SPEAKER_01The first UFC fight.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, Paul Paul didn't want to trust John, is it John Mark? Yeah, and Barnabas did, because he had let them down in the past.
SPEAKER_06I thought it was over the pronunciation of Augustine.
SPEAKER_08Augustine, yeah. Um, but yeah, you know, those those areas. So so Mark, I I'd love you to kind of help wrap this up for us. So someone's listening right now, they're convicted. All right, they're realizing, well, I am that I am that spectator Christian. I think Ray
Start Small And Make A Plan
SPEAKER_08gave some good indicators as to to who is not, and I think a lot of those are just things of where you take the you take the path less traveled, you or or the you take the broad road, let me just say, in in the in the context of service. Um you're that person who who is talking to yourself in your heart when you see that that last cookie, and you're like, I want that, I want that, right? You wouldn't say that out loud, you're just and then finally you take it. The one that says, Oh man, I hope they don't look toward me to help serve right now, right? Right, that that inward conversation, you flip that and and and and you change your way. So so there's that struggle, there's that battle. How do they start?
SPEAKER_01Well, you we had mentioned the the small things, being faithful to the small things. It's a weird thing because in our eyes it is a small thing, but in God's eyes, it is not a small thing. It is the biggest thing that God is requiring of you. And if you find yourself being faithful with small things, when the big things come, you you may even think of that as a small thing or as an ordinary thing because God is doing it. And that ordinary is a supernatural, super ordinary thing. You're just walking with God. Uh Elijah walked with God and then he was no more. I think that though his address changed, he the fellowship didn't. It just became uh 3D color, if you would, with the with the fellowship of God. So don't overthink it. Just stop scrolling, put a time limit on the phone. Um, I I learned from uh Oscar to turn your phone into that black and white. You know, you ever try to watch black and white, not movies at night, but you try to scroll through black and white reels, it's it just falls flat, right? It just doesn't go anywhere. So Owen uh Strand this week he had a post about put down the distraction, right? We age while we wait in line strolling through distractions. And before we realize it, all the sand of our hourglass is down on the floor. We don't know it. Every one of us at our best is just 15 years of life, and and that's it. So step aside, put the phone down, have a phone Sabbath. We've had that, we've talked about that in a past episode, and pick up a book. You know, I'm not watching television tonight.
SPEAKER_04Hey, don't book about iPhones and iPhone about iPhones.
SPEAKER_01Uh arrive to church a little bit earlier than you normally do. Pick up some trash around where the donuts are at. Stay, stay late. Hey, tell you what, why don't you sit in a different section of the church than where you normally sit and see who sits over there who refuses to sit inside of your section? You know, we joke because we don't know who goes to our church unless they turn around so we can look at the back of their heads. That's the only way we know. So just do things a little bit different. So we have a friend, Jeff Alphonse, who he's like the best man at every wedding that you will ever attend. Everybody loves this guy. I say, Lord, I want to kind of act like that. I want to be just a friend to everybody. So to answer the question directly, what do you do? Just start with the small things. You know, pick up the book, pick up the phone call, pick up the pen, write an encouraging letter to that person, and before you know it, those small things are turning into much bigger things.
SPEAKER_04Pick up a small tract. A small track. A small sinner.
SPEAKER_01Everybody is just one gospel conversation away from eternity. Everybody.
SPEAKER_04Let me share a weakness that I've had that you guys might know about. You might not, or you might. Um, I I find it's horrific for me to jump into a swimming pool. Always had that problem. If if I go around, I haven't been around a someone's pool for many years, but if they haven't got a heated pool, I'll get into my shorts or whatever I have and hold on to towel, and I'll walk around and feel the water and think, I gotta jump into this, and I can't do it. I'm so hesitating. And it just comes to a point where you just gotta run at it and jump, and your flesh screams for about two seconds, then your flesh adjusts. And that's exactly what it's like with evangelism. It's terrifying. You hold on to your little towel, but if you just jump into it, your flesh will adjust in seconds.
SPEAKER_08Amen. Yeah, and I would say finally, look, be spontaneous and don't be spontaneous. What do I mean by that? What I mean by that is before you can be spontaneous, you need to be planned. So you're convicted right now, you're hearing this. Pull out your phone, and you know, this is a good time to pull it out. Open that notes app and just start jotting down two or three things that you're going to do either later today or tomorrow. Just to, I'm gonna call someone, uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna email my church and ask what areas are open for service. I'm gonna just don't go big crazy. And then from there, plan more. Okay, then okay, this week, what are the things I want to do to not be a spectator Christian, but to serve and to bless? And then when you begin to plan, you'll start noticing, you'll get excited and you'll start getting spontaneous. You'll start, oh, this person popped into my mind because you're getting exercised in that regard. So, like Paul said, like you know, exercise is profitable, but but godly discipline or godly exercise is profitable. It's more profitable for this life and in the life to come. Amen. Amen. All right, well, there you have it. Fram and uh don't forget all the good stuff. Where am I? I'm lost in my notes.
Send Questions And Closing
SPEAKER_08How dare I? Don't forget the track sample. Like, subscribe, and share. We want to hear your thoughts and questions. They've been flowing in. Please keep them coming because we want to answer them here on the podcast. Podcast at LivingWanders.com. Thank yay for joining us, friends.
SPEAKER_07We'll see you here next time on the Living Wanders podcast, where we have no idea what we're doing.
