Ep. 401 - Combating Depression

When depression settles over life, where should Christians turn? Ray, E.Z., Mark, and Oscar begin by addressing the reality of depression and discouragement, acknowledging that seasons of darkness touch every believer in different ways. Rather than treating depression as evidence of weak faith, they explain that Scripture honestly portrays the sorrow of God's people while continually pointing them back to His faithfulness. Though emotions often tell a different story, believers are reminded that God is working all things together for their good and that each day is another opportunity to know Him, serve Him, and trust His promises.

The conversation then explores the biblical understanding of depression, challenging common misconceptions about mental health. The guys explain that sorrow is often multifaceted, encompassing physical, emotional, relational, moral, and spiritual realities that should not be ignored. Looking to Christ as the Man of Sorrows and to countless examples throughout Scripture, they remind listeners that seasons of grief do not necessarily indicate personal sin or a lack of faith. Rather than seeking quick fixes, believers are encouraged to anchor themselves in God's truth, knowing that while suffering is part of life in a fallen world, it will not have the final word.

From there, the discussion turns to practical ways Christians can faithfully navigate seasons of depression. The guys encourage listeners to keep moving forward, one step at a time, to seek help from the body of Christ, and to embrace the ordinary means God has provided for their care. Exercise, rest, healthy routines, purposeful work, serving others, reading Scripture, and cultivating daily habits all become practical expressions of trusting the Lord rather than surrendering to despair. They also remind listeners that true identity is found in Christ, not in feelings or circumstances, and that lasting hope comes from being fully known and fully loved by God.

Finally, the guys address the important distinction between depression and suicidal thoughts, urging believers to respond with wisdom, compassion, and urgency when someone is in crisis. They emphasize asking difficult questions, helping loved ones find safety, and seeking professional care when necessary. Throughout the conversation, the gospel remains the foundation of hope, reminding believers that Christ has entered human suffering, conquered sin and death, and promises an eternal future in which sorrow will one day be no more.

Thanks for listening! If you’ve been helped by this podcast, we’d be grateful if you’d consider subscribing, sharing, and leaving us a comment and 5-star rating!
 
Visit the Living Waters website to learn more and to access helpful resources!
You can find helpful counseling resources at biblicalcounseling.com.
Check out The Evidence Study Bible and the Basic Training Course.

You can connect with us at podcast@livingwaters.com. We're thankful for your input!
Learn more about the hosts of this podcast.
Ray Comfort
Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne
Mark Spence
Oscar Navarro

Transcript

When Suffering Makes You Doubt Love

SPEAKER_00 0:00

We begin to question God's love for us because of what we're going through. Yeah. You know, I've served you X amount of years, I've done these things faithfully. Why am I going through this thing? But we have to remember that God's love was demonstrated towards us and that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. So if he's going to die for us, you tell us what he wouldn't do for us. No good thing is he gonna withhold from those who walk uprightly. Delight yourself in the Lord, he'll give you the desires of your heart. That God is our portion, he's our inheritance, he is what we need.

Renting People For Social Events

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a special announcement next week here and only here on the Living Waters Podcast. We will be able to rent out Ray, Mark, or Oscar for your birthday party, Kensin Yeta or Bar Mitzvah, Baal Mitzvah, 95% off.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

All restrictions apply. Julia, my beautiful lovely daughter. By the way, we're still getting emails from people saying how much they loved the episode with Julia. Oh, yeah. What was it called? I gotta bring her back. Uh it was about brokenness and something beauty. Her book, All Things Broken and Beautiful.

SPEAKER_07 1:05

I thought it was called the Sane Swain.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

The only Sane Swain.

SPEAKER_07 1:11

That was the title of that episode.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

Yeah. So anyway, she sends me a text with this link talking about how they actually rent people out in Japan.

SPEAKER_07 1:21

We used to do that here in the States.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

It's called slavery. Yeah. Yeah. Um complaints. Julia sends me this thing, and I'm and I'm looking at it. I cannot believe. So I went and watched some videos. They rent people out. Like you could well, here's the list. Rent a family member, hiring someone to play a father or mother, spouse, sibling, etc., for an event or social situation. Rental friends, companions for weddings, parties, meals, or social outings. Rental boyfriend, girlfriend, rental husband or wife, rental wedding guests, rental apology services. Someone accompanies you or helps deliver an apology. Rental co-workers or business associates, rental audience members, rental mourners, rental teachers or tutors. Yeah, and on and on it goes. Rental personal shoppers. I love it. Rental mascots or character performance.

SPEAKER_05 2:14

I'm looking at the expression of Mark and Oscar at the moment, of like, yeah, what's going on? Yeah, you rent people.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

Yeah. What would we rent you out for, Ray? That's what I want to know. Basketball. Basketball. Your own personal basketball. Spurs lost us nice. No, but I was watching this video, and and you know, you're paying there, you're paying. There was one where a girl rented a guy as a boyfriend, and you're renting like by the hour, and you're paying for their food and all the stuff. I hate to bring this up, but it's not sexual. No, no, no, it's not. Why not? I don't know. It's not supposed to be.

SPEAKER_05 2:48

It's bound to lean that direction, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 2:50

I'm renting a girl. Yeah, I guess it could, but they made it clear it was uh non-barrassed, not embarrassed remote.

SPEAKER_07 2:59

So yeah. Can we rent a new co-host for the podcast?

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Go's rentals.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Oh, yeah. All right, friends.

Listener Letter From Living Waters Europe

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Time for a cool classy comment. Oh, Mark Spence, who returned from the UK, brought us letters. Yes, you know. That's nice, Mark. Oh, it is. So, um, this one.

SPEAKER_05 3:18

I love the chocolate. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

I loved uh the this envelope that was addressed. Mark Ray Oscar and the entertainerslash brilliant host, easy. Why would you bring that one back? Sing sings like me and also has a gift, uh, joke telling like me. Oh, thank you. This is from James. I had uh our dear staff member here, April. Uh what do you call it? Subscribe. Interpret it? Yeah, interpret it. Uh dear Mark Easy Ray and Oscar, I'm writing this as my son Josh and I are about to graduate from 10th anniversary Living Waters Europe Academy. We both want to thank you all from the bottom of our hearts for the truth you have helped and partnered our lives. We are trembling yet excited and expectant that God, through his rich grace and life-saving mercy, that he might use sinners like us. We began to speak to people after self-teaching the good person model in September 2025. Since then, we have spoken with hundreds of people and handed out so many more flyers. You guys have changed our lives because of Christ and his love for us all. So sorry for this messy note and bad writing. We took care of that. We're both still trembling, but smiling like the Cheshire cats and ready to go. Much loving him, James and Josh from a Jersey Channel Islands. Uh P.S. Mark was first on the thank you because he came to be with us in person. I hope to see you in person sometime and teach easy, funny jokes.

SPEAKER_05 4:42

So you guys know what Jersey Island's about? Getting any idea? It's just off the coast of England. No, not Jersey, it's Jersey Island. Uh it was inhabited by the Nazis during the Second World War. Really? Yeah, I think it was Jersey. Yeah. It's quite an interesting story. Because it's just off the coast. Yeah. England.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Well, thank you guys so much for uh getting out there sharing the gospel. Mark, you met them, you remember them, of course.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Yeah, you know, tremendous people. John and Danny Harris. They're amazing. I cannot say uh enough about them. My heart is just linked uh to them. And uh they have a conference every year in Lincoln in the UK, they're in England. Equips them for from Monday to Friday, and then on Saturday goes out and goes witnessing, does some open air preaching, and it is tremendous. So they bring in speakers from AIG and they bring me in and um and other people. And it it's it's just tremendous. We sit down around the table all day long. And then we eat and we share. It's it's if you're anywhere near England, near uh Lincoln, you know, uh, I recommend doing that. It it's on bank holiday. Is there only one bank holiday? Is it like Memorial Day at Labor Day? Yeah, it's like that. I'm confused about it. Uh so once a year and it's always around the same time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

What's great is how John doesn't like to teach, you know, thorough sessions or anything like that. Well, yeah, it's very thorough. Very, very sharp. Don't forget he's Lebanese.

SPEAKER_05 6:10

And it was occupied from 1940 to 1945 by the Nazis just off the coast of England. The only territory to be occupied by the Nazis. Very interesting story. Jersey Island. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

Is that where we get New Jersey from? Or no, right? I don't know. Probably.

Prayer Requests And Family Seasons

SPEAKER_02 6:25

All right, you've just entered the quality question section. This is from Hannah Blossom's subject line. Easy, please read. Hi, Easy. I'm from Australia, so would like you to read this on the podcast in your best Aussie, not New Zealand accent. I have a huge all right. I am a huge fan of the podcast, so much so that I have a section in my notes where I record favorite episodes, quotes, books, and a few favorite things I want to remember.

SPEAKER_07 6:54

What is happening? Wait, that was good. No. Wow. There's nothing good. None good, none.

SPEAKER_05 7:00

No, look, get Cam Can Ham's opinion on that.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

Can Ham doesn't know anything. I've recently bought a notebook and have decided to write down advice about.

SPEAKER_05 7:09

You're still doing it.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

And have a family in. Uh and I must say a huge thank you for providing information I can write down and keep, and I even have gone back to listen to episodes I've already listened to. This podcast is great for gleaning useful and practical information. Thank you. Also, the episode starring Julia Zwain was one of my favorites.

SPEAKER_05 7:30

What was it called?

SPEAKER_02 7:31

I uh broken things broken and how to find beauty and brokenness or something. I've been inspired to write poetry when I'm toughing it, and it has really helped. Thank you, Julia. And thank you so much for discussing the hard topics as well as the easy ones. I heard that you would appreciate prayer. So is there anything specific you want prayer for? I could go on forever about how great you guys are, how thankful I am that you're doing this despite having no idea what you're doing. The podcast is never the same when one of you are absent, except when Ray, Mark, and Oscar are absent. It's great. I have I've enjoyed laughing and sometimes crying with you. From a sister in Christ, Hannah. And then, Hannah, uh, you criticize this poor humble Arab cherub about something. Hurts me so deeply that I can't bear to repeat it. Um, so anyway, I'll repeat it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so prayer requests. Was it about your warts? Uh no, no. Oscar, you can't see it. Don't even try. It's not there. I took it out.

SPEAKER_05 8:23

Was it was it the moles?

SPEAKER_02 8:25

The warts and the moles and the yeah. Um, all right, prayer, God, what a blessing. Hannah, thank you, even though you criticize me. Um thank you for wanting to pray for us. That really does mean a lot. So I'll kick it off. Uh, I would I would love prayer. And for those of you out there who who do pray for us, we you know, we it's so cliche we cut at your prayers, but we really do. I mean it is, okay. We cut it at your pairs, but we do. Seriously. I mean, when people tell me they're praying for me, it it stirs my soul.

SPEAKER_06 8:53

You know, I'm always praying for you. That's because the scripture tells me to pray for my enemies.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Yeah, I pray I pray against you, Oscar. Um, but I would love prayer to always have an eternal perspective. Because I think um that solves so many issues in my life if I have an eternal perspective. And an internal perspective. Uh yeah, eternal, any turn on internal revenue services. Um, Oscar, prayer.

SPEAKER_07 9:15

Uh my actually, I have a confession linked to prayer, which is yesterday at lunch, I was the one that stole your limes.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

What? I had my ally Daniel there, and he pointed to Mark.

SPEAKER_07 9:28

You were going hard at Mark for stealing your limes. You never once questioned your confidence that Mark stole your limes.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

It's a parallel of crying wolf, right? Because Mark's what Mark does.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

It's just insult upon injury. There's no way it's like when he's like, he can't just apologize. He just has to.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

It's like when I was in high school. If ever I was around, no matter what, it was like someone let off a firecracker once and they came right at me.

SPEAKER_07 9:57

What you're saying is it's Mark's fault that you thought it was Mark. Of course.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Of course. You notice I didn't defend myself with him. Vengeance is mine, so I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

I was I was misled, especially by Daniel, too. Anyway, Maholic. Oh.

SPEAKER_07 10:10

Ridiculous. Um Yeah, so my son's actually graduating from middle school today. Uh my youngest daughter became a teenager two weeks ago. So we have all teenagers in the home. My other daughter turns 17, so I'll have a 17-year-old, a 14-year-old, and a 13-year-old. And uh my my oldest is going into senior year of high school. So we're just we're sensing like our our our season is is shifting, you know, with our kids. Um, and we just we want to finish well. We want these last few years, we want this summer to be meaningful as we navigate the the new and different ways in which we shepherd our kids in these teen years. Um, they're amazing, they're not anything like the the way people think about teenagers. Like, I love my kids, they're so fun to be around, they're so sweet and kind. Um, but we just want to be good stewards of this time, enjoying them and and pointing them towards the Lord in this season. It can be like you're more hands-off, but you also don't want to be completely hands-off in how you steward themselves. So yeah, just wisdom of it.

SPEAKER_05 11:17

You've got a long leash on the dog.

SPEAKER_07 11:19

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good way of putting it.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

Great, great, Oscar. I love that. And uh, for those of you listening, you're in the same season of life Oscar is in Age of Opportunity by Paul Trepp. Phenomenal book. Yeah, it is a good book. Mark.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

You know, my my continual weekly prayer request is Salvation for my family. You know, my my oldest brother got saved, my next brother got saved. You know, so I'm seeing, I'm definitely seeing fruit and and their families. And now I have my younger brother, uh, Steve, and his wife, Melissa, and their kids. Uh I I say their names by by name. They don't think that I'm a Christian, right? They don't think I'm going to heaven. I'm anathema because you're Catholic. Because yeah, they're Catholic. Uh so that that's the biggest uh request for me, and praise God. All my kids are walking with God. Um what else would I have? I would have uh, you know, my YouTube channel, my social media, I'm really excited about it. Right now, God is really blessing the YouTube channel, averaging about 200,000 views a uh a day right now on my YouTube channel. And uh I'm very excited about it. Very excited about producing videos and reels and stuff and waiting for you guys to do the same. Ray obviously is uh we follow his lead. Uh but uh yeah, I I'm I'm loving it. Loving producing content and it's uh really touching and impacting the world. So looks great. My YouTube. Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

And now for the man whose name is always in prayer. P-R-A-Y.

SPEAKER_05 12:43

I like to be shorter.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

We can take care of that one, Ray. Yeah, yeah. Um lag reduction surgery.

SPEAKER_05 12:50

We're a reduction surgery. Um, yeah, we've we've got an outreach coming up called Golden Opportunity. We haven't released the details yet, but it's by far the biggest thing we've ever been involved in. And I'm so excited. We need wisdom. Um and I need wisdom to be able to express the excitement I have to others so they get excited about this too. So over the next month or so, we'll be doing that.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

Amen.

Shout Outs And Ministry Updates

SPEAKER_02 13:17

All right. Well, please pray for us again. Thank you, Hannah, for that. And uh, I'm such a gracious, kind, loving God that I'm gonna actually guy, say God, whoa. I thought I heard it. Whoa, name it, claim it. This is because I'm always in prayer, I'm always like, God, you know, we thank you. So it just kind of came out anyway. Uh Hannah. 13 minute. I'm such a kind guy that uh I'm gonna read your uh second letter on the next podcast, even though you criticize me. All right, get ready for a shout out from the Sheik of Shawarma, number 11, Top Christian Podcast on Apple Podcasts in Singapore. I've been to Singapore. We've been twice, Mark and I went to Singapore. And number 13 out of all religion and spirituality podcasts. So thank you in Singapore for listening.

SPEAKER_07 14:03

Dude, the Hakka Hakka Squares in Singapore, the food there are phenomenal. The Hakka Squares, it's so in Singapore, the locals all eat basically street food.

SPEAKER_04 14:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 14:13

And the street food there is amazing. It's actually, I think, the first street food vendor to ever win a Michelin uh rating is a Hakka street food vendor. Really? That's a big deal.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

Oscar categorizes countries by food. Yeah, or coffee does.

SPEAKER_07 14:30

Or coffee. Also, the coffee in Singapore is really good.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

All right. And now a radically revolutionary resource. This cotton.

SPEAKER_07 14:38

What? What?

SPEAKER_02 14:39

What is going on with my brain today?

SPEAKER_05 14:42

When you said you were God before, that was a small g. Of course. Jehovah's Witness.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

This podcast is branching bang! Ray's new marriage book. God has a wonderful plan for your wife. No, no, no. There's Ray getting beaten by Sue. God has a wonderful plan for your life, friends. Amazing book.

SPEAKER_05 15:05

You've got to read it. Over 450,000.

SPEAKER_02 15:07

It's more now. 600 or 7 or 8. Um, the myth of the modern message. That's always important. Yes. Yeah, check it out, friends. Don't forget Living Waters mugged, having a study, Bible, Living Waters TV, all that. Laving Waters. And don't forget the podcast YouTube channels with tens of thousands of subscribers. Guys, we went long on the intro. It's your fault. It's your faults. I apologize. All right. Today

What Depression Feels Like

SPEAKER_02 15:31

being blamed. We're talking about combating depression, which is what I deal with on every podcast. Here's one of the definitions of depression that I found online. Depression is a persistent feeling of sadness and loss of interest. It can lead to a variety of emotional and physical problems. You may have trouble doing normal day-to-day activities, and sometimes you may feel as if living isn't worth it. So let's kick it off with have you guys ever experienced depression? If so, elaborate.

SPEAKER_05 16:02

I was gonna do study on it, but I couldn't be bothered. Do what? Study on the whole thing. I was just too didn't feel like doing it. No, I didn't feel it. Yeah. So Ray, you ever felt depression?

Gratitude As A Daily Reframe

SPEAKER_05 16:12

All the time. Okay, so I battle all this like a heavy dark cloud comes on me for no reason, and I have to learn to shake it off. And um just out of the blue, you'll just be gone about it. It's for no reason. Things things are going really good. I've got no reason to be depressed. And that's what depresses me. I get depressed for no reason for being depressed. One thing that makes a lot of people, I think millions of people depressed, is the sameness of every day. Every day's the same. Let me share my uh reason for being depressed about the sameness of every day. I wake up in the morning, lie there, recover, then I get up and have a shower. Then I open the bedroom door, and there's my dog at the top of the stairs. I walk down the stairs in the kitchen, turn the kitchen light on, turn the living room light on, six lights to turn on. Then I lift up the blind, close, then open up the door. It's the same day, it's weather outside, there's the chicken still there, and it's kind of depressing because I have the same breakfast every day. Just the sameness.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

So you're the cause of your own depression.

SPEAKER_05 17:07

Now let me let me tell you, let me tell you what, let me tell you what really happens. I wake up in the morning and say, Oh, I'm still alive, thank you. I have time to recover from the night. I get up, have a hot shower. I love having showers, absolutely love it, because I think about the fact that in history, who had hot showers in history? Probably Pharaoh's. He gets his slaves, heat up the water, make exactly 72 degrees or whatever, and he has a hot shower. But I get to have a hot shower every morning. I open up the door, my faithful dog is waiting at the top of the stairs. She absolutely adores me. And I go down the stairs and think, we've got a two-story house. I love it. Turn on the kitchen light. Then I go and turn on the lights in the living room, and they come on automatically, thanks to Yale. I just say, Siri, turn on living room. Lights come on. I open up the door. I see the California weather. This is California. I get to breathe in California. I see the chickens, they lay eggs every day. They're gifts from heaven. And I'm so thankful. I go and have breakfast. There's a lot of starving people around that don't get breakfast. I get to see all these things. When I pull the blind up, all the birds are there because I've got the double-sided mirror on the thing, so all the birds can't see me. I go right up close and study the birds and think of God's goodness. And I think, another day to serve the Lord. What an honor. So the whole thing comes back to attitude and gratitude and thankfulness that we can see and breathe and live in a free country. And so you can lift yourself above that depression. And you've just got to realize that depression in scriptures all over the place. Read the Psalms. David was super depressed. Apostle Paul wanted to die at one stage. He's so pressed, out of measure. Elijah, you've got Jeremiah, all depressed. But what we've got to realize is that you and I as Christians are soldiers of Christ. And soldiers have got a real reason to be depressed. I mean, you go out there in the heat of battle, you can be shot through the face, you can blow up, lose your legs, you're not with your loved ones. That's a real reason for depression. But what do they do? They fight because that's what they are, soldiers. And we're involved in a battle against not flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, demonic forces that want to take away our courage. And Jesus was never depressed. The Bible says in the book of Isaiah, he shall not fail nor be discouraged. He would never lose his courage. Why? Because he shall not fail. And that's the attitude we've got to have as Christians. Doesn't matter what comes upon us, all things are working together for good. God's the lover of our soul, and we have the honor of serving him. So get out, depression. I'm busy serving the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

Thank you for joining us. Thank you for joining us, friends. Uh, Ray, have you written that out? Yeah, just uh this morning.

SPEAKER_05 19:40

Oh, you did?

SPEAKER_02 19:42

Because I was gonna say that reminded me of Lord, I have a problem.

SPEAKER_05 19:45

Oh, yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

It's so good because it's that twist, you know. Oh, that's so good, Ray. I thought you were gonna end on your dumb depression. You made me depressed at the beginning. I'm like, oh. So good. Perspective, yeah, right? Yeah, absolutely. What about you,

Courage From Knowing The Ending

SPEAKER_02 20:01

Mark?

SPEAKER_00 20:01

No, I mean, I exactly the same thing. When I wake up in the morning, I was just this morning, I was thinking, I cannot believe I'm alive still. I am so excited for this day. And it's not because I'm seeing sound of music tonight, a play with my family. If that never happens, great. If it happens, great. And just what whatever. You know, do I struggle with depression and discouragement? I think that uh it can come knocking, you know, for sure. You know, I did with King David as uh Raid said. Why are you downcast, oh my soul, hope in God? But here's the thing I've read the final chapter and I see that God wins. So now whatever comes our way is just a stepping stone in the journey. When you're going through a dark area, a dark time, you just realize this too shall come to pass. It's dark at night, but listen, the sun's gonna rise. And I think about it continually, every morning. I wake up in the night to uh to use a restroom, whatever it may be, and it's dark, and then I I'm laying there in bed and the sun begins to rise, and I'm like, there's God's faithfulness. You know, so I've read that final chapter in Revelation 22, 21, where where God just wins and it's just amen, and I'm here. God has saved me, and it's it's gonna be okay. And these weird uh parts of my life, you know, that I that I can't make sense, they these dark parts, it's like the dark squares of a of a puzzle. So you have a little puzzle piece that is black and you just go, this doesn't fit, and then you put it into the picture and you go, that actually fits well. It accentuates the rest of the things that's going on. And so to Ray's point, Ray loves to watch, you know, rugby and cricket, but he likes to know who won first before he watches it. I'm like that with movies. You know, my wife it drives her crazy because I'll look up the way a movie ends before I end up watching the movie. So I have watched more movies the last five to ten minutes than actual movies combined. Oh, I don't like the way that ended. Yeah, that's a twisted, twisted way to live life. But it but it's great. And well listen, we have the same thing. I agree with Matt.

SPEAKER_05 22:06

Matt Sona, I've watched a few movies lately and the stupid endings. The hero doesn't get the girl.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

Yeah. Well, God did that with the word of God. Yeah, we'll keep it there. But yeah, no. So I'm like, yes. So therefore, I'm able to find my courage and be encouraged as uh things get weird and crazy and political and things of that nature. I mean, Oscar, depression.

SPEAKER_07 22:31

I've been depressed for the last 22 minutes in 41, 42.

A Nuanced Christian View Of Depression

SPEAKER_07 22:38

Yeah, I've had I've had seasons of dark night of the soul. I've had family members who struggled uh with chronic depression that led to suicidal ideation. I've I've had friends as well. Uh here's here's what I would say: one, there's a misconception about depression, and unfortunately, something we have to own as Christians is there's even Christian circles that have misconceptions about mental health in general, but depression specifically. And there are spaces and places where you feel like, man, if you have depression, it's because you're soft, you're a coward, you're not faithful enough, you lack spiritual maturity, you lack gratitude. Um, that's we we don't definitely do not want to contribute to that mindset because as you pointed out, Ray, the scripture is very nuanced about these dark nights of the soul, these feelings of depression. And as a matter of fact, as one, as as David Paulson put it, we should not be surprised that we struggle with things like depression because we live in a fallen world. The earth groans in anticipation for the return of its king. And so in a fallen state, there are things that will weigh us down. Jesus himself grieves with great sorrow, and yet he was closest. No one would ever say he lacked gratitude or he he lacked faith and the he he knew the last chapter as well, and yet he is sorrowful. He is the suffering servant, right? He he weeps to the point where he sweats blood. And so one thing I think that's just super important off the bat is that the self-help gurus will give you anecdotes as though it's like medication, just do this and you're not gonna be depressed. And I think as Christians, we need to be careful that we don't fall in the same Christianized temptation. Here are the, here, just do this and then you're gonna feel better. What's amazing about the scripture is that it treats the dark night of the soul with so much great nuance. All around the world, you're gonna hear that depression is a problem of this, a problem of that. It oversimplifies it. Um, but again, borrowing from David Pollison, he says there's five dimensions of the dark night of the soul or depression. There's the physical. The scripture recognizes that our physical ailments, whether that's chemical imbalances or bodily ailments, will cause us to be depressed. There's emotional and relational, the anxious heart, there's the moral, the conviction of sin, there's the existential pain. I love in one of his one of his books he points out, and this might sound depressing, but he points out at the dinner table when you're around all of your children and loved ones, the reality is one of those people are gonna watch all the others die. Sure and they be the last to live. So the existential crisis that this life is that this life is again fallen. Um and then there's of course the faith aspect in which we do sometimes are experiencing depression because we actually do lack faith. In other words, the scripture gives us this multi-faceted nuance as to why we might experience these feelings. It doesn't oversimplify them. It doesn't offer us quick fixes. Uh, what's beautiful is the scriptures take their time. It's not like a Hobby Lobby bumper sticker. It takes its time all through Ecclesiastes and the Psalms, all throughout the New Testament. It takes its time, allowing us space to recognize the fallen nature of this world. And one of the most important things is the aim of scripture is not to get us undepressed, it's to anchor our hope in Christ. Super important.

SPEAKER_05 26:35

Although we do love hobby lobbies, bumper sticks.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

Indeed, we do. Yeah, um man, Oscar, that's such a good perspective. Yeah, you know, uh yeah, I've I've dealt with depression um many times in my life. Uh I I remember Steve Ferrar, if you guys remember him, he he was uh kind of the men's ministry guru. He came and spoke at our church, Mark, a while back. Uh he wrote a well-known book called Point Man. But I remember when he spoke, he said that he he he deals with depression every day. He says it's like a process. He wakes up in the morning and he feels depressed. And he says he gets his cup of coffee, he gets his Bible, he goes sits down and sits with the Lord. I love that, you know, because his his action is you go and you seek the Lord. I can relate to that. There's mornings, you know, I'll wake up, it's just this gross feeling. Sometimes I have a weird nightmare. Like the other night, um, Rachel had to wake me up because I was like, ah, in my sleep, you know, all kinds of craziness. Yeah. And um, but sometimes I'll wake up in that more in the morning with that heavy feeling. But I've learned it's like a process. Little by little, as I'm awake, I brush my teeth, I get in the shower. We've talked about how much we love showers, and like I suddenly feel like, oh, I'm good. So knowing that that relief is coming uh gives me, give me, gives me that sense of of uh perseverance in the moment, not to be over overcome by it. You know, but yeah, I've gone through lots of I lost my mom. I I went through a real intense dark night of the soul, which I've talked about on here before. Um, but uh yeah, as it relates to Jesus, we have to remember Isaiah 53 says that he was uh a man who he, you know, who was acquainted with sorrow and and grief. And I mean, you think of Gethsemane for Jesus, right? This is uh uh in in Matthew. Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane and said to his disciples, sit here while I go and pray over there. And he took them uh with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee and began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed. Then he said to them, My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with me. And the reason why that consoles me is because we know Jesus was sinless. And what that tells us is when you go through seasons of sorrow, when you go through through seasons of of distress, it doesn't necessarily mean it's sin. It can be, depending on on whether or not, you know, it's birthed out of lack of trust in the Lord or or some sense of selfishness or connected with sin. But but there are times when we go through those dark clouds. And we've talked about how J.I. Packer, Knowing God, talks about how there is this misconception within Christianity that you should never ever struggle or battle or feel those feelings of that Ray even mentioned, like he feels gets depression all the time, this, that, or the other. But it's what we do with it. And I love like Ray, what you shared in terms of that perspective, that understanding. And and the key is is it's not the hope is not that the depression will lift, though oftentimes it does. The hope is, and that's why I asked for this prayer in the beginning, with eternal-mindedness, we know ultimately it will pass. And we we understand what we have in him and who we are in him. And so I found that to be the remedy. Jesus can relate to that. You know, we often quote Hebrews 4. We don't have a high priest who can't sympathize with our weaknesses, uh, was tempted in all points as we are yet without sin. But we we forget Hebrews 2. He had to be made like his brethren in all things so that he can come to the aid of those who are tempted. He had to be made like his brethren in all things, excepting, of course, the sinful nature. But he was one of us, you guys. Like that that is the awe and the mystery that should never cease to amaze us. Right. God took upon himself flesh. It's breathtaking. Yeah, it really is. You know, it's good in the morning.

SPEAKER_07 30:31

Yeah, I just had this terrible thought. Oh no. Keep with it. With yourself, Oscar. Which is that uh we're gonna get an email from a pastor one day and be like, every time I mention a Bible address in the middle of my church service, someone goes, mmm. I'm sure people are doing it. It's gonna be all, it's gonna come all back to us. Yeah. It's so good, easy. You did you you had something else?

Do The Next Thing

SPEAKER_07 30:53

No, no, it's good. Oh um, yeah, and I you know what's something that that's coming up, which is kind of comes with the comes to something else that we should talk about is what do we what what are practical things Christians can do in the midst of sorrow? And one thing that that both of you have alluded to, uh, which again, a David Paulison thing, he says, do the next thing. Do the next thing because depression can get you stagnant, it can stop you from moving forward. You can wake up and feel the weight of it and not get out of bed. Yeah. And then just lay there all day. And so do the next thing is not thinking about outcome or resolution, but like the next thing is to get out of bed. Yeah. And the thing after that is to brush my teeth, and the thing after that is to take a shower and to go downstairs and turn the lights on. Just do the next thing. Super important. Something else too, and actually, this is I would say this is one of the most important things you can do is tell somebody. Yeah, so many people who are struggling with depression are doing it alone because one of the lies the devil loves to put into our brains when we're feeling that sorrow is that we can't tell him. He wants us isolated. Um and you know, Genesis says that sin is a crouching lion. Lions love to get its prey alone, away from the herd, right? And in that same way, if you are alone in your depression, um man, that's exactly where the devil wants you to be. And the Lord has has saved you out of anonymity, out of autonomy, into community, into the unity of a local body who can know you and love you and and and bear your burdens alongside of you. And so one of the most important things you can do right away is invite someone in to the conversation.

SPEAKER_05 33:22

She had us and bood and hoft. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

You know, my my daughter Ella. I'm sorry, Ray, you fit. I just made that my daughter Ella, she's she has an Instagram page, uh, streams of mercy and or stream of mercy. And she uh had this wall, she created this wallpaper for people to do the next thing. And it's so great. So you you turn on your phone and you're able to see it. It's just like, all right, you get inside the rut, or you you end up sinning, doing something you shouldn't have done, or you're depressed, you're discouraged, or you're having a great time. It doesn't matter what it is, right? You you you look at your phone, it's just I'm gonna do the next thing. What is the next thing? And the next thing may be just go brush your teeth. Serum. You know, just go to sleep, go take a nap. You know, go have a bowl cereal, do whatever you want to do. And that's just you're you're moving. It's just one more step forward.

SPEAKER_05 34:08

Yeah, and brush teeth in the shower saves time. Oh no. Habit stacking. Eat in the shower.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Yeah, I did. A lot of pressure. A lot of pressure.

SPEAKER_05 34:22

You know, the share and milk.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

So, guys, I I want to get into the spiritual, but but before that, I think oftentimes, you know, we make the mistake as Christians of looking for like the supernatural in a sense for the remedy when the Lord has provided the practical in many cases. Uh you know, like in the medical. Lord, do a miracle and

Practical Habits That Lift The Fog

SPEAKER_02 34:42

heal me. And there's an operation you could actually do that would heal you. But it's like, so practical. Like, what are practical things we can do? Here's here's the first one that I want to give out exercise.

SPEAKER_06 34:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

I mean, God has given us different chemicals in our bodies, and he's created certain things that can trigger those chemicals to be released. And one of the greatest things is exercising. That's true. Like, seriously, when I exert myself, I feel good. It gives sort of attention. It really does. I feel alive. I feel right. I mean, Oscar, that you're you're big on that. Mark, you're big on exercise. I mean, you and Laura walk like I mean, we can't tell, but you'll check it himself out. I am you and Laura, like you guys walk almost daily, right? Oh, yeah, oh yeah. We love walking.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

It's better than running. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 35:34

No, you it's so important. It's important to recognize that God has in created us to be embodied creatures. And uh and and a part of a part of our depression, a part of recognizing our mental health is recognizing that all of it correlates together, that it is that it is physical, that it is emotional, and that it is spiritual. And I I think so many people overlook exactly what you're talking about, easy, which is the physical dimension. Like we were not designed by God to sit on our seats and stare at screens our entire lives. Uh, and and so much of like if if we can get our bodies moving, uh, the God-given gift of science shows us that our neurons and synapses fire off that we have these brain chemicals that are basically like miracle drugs to make us feel happy and joyful. God gave those to us in our brains. And when we don't exercise, when we don't treat our bodies like a temple, when we don't have healthy habits, we diffuse those chemical responses. And the Lord has designed us with intentionality to be active and to be proactive in regards to activating our brains.

SPEAKER_05 36:48

And what would you say to someone who's stuck in a wheelchair and is listening to us?

SPEAKER_02 36:52

That's a really good point. That's a good point. No, it's a good point. And let me say this on that note. I want to keep going on that vein, but you know, we're

Hope When Life Limits Your Options

SPEAKER_02 36:59

you're talking about all those things that you, oh, I get up, I walk down the stairs, I do this and that. Oh, yeah. What about those who can't walk down the stairs? What about those that are suffering in pain and cancer? And you know, I I praise God for people like Johnny Erickson Tada, right? Who has gone through so much and goes through so much, and yet is a signpost. I mean, you think about it, like how often her name is used as an example. I was talking to someone yesterday who's going through intense depression and a lot of physical ailments, and I was able to reference her and say, okay, because here's the thing, right? We're going through something, it's tough, it's intense. We acknowledge it, we recognize it's hard, we we understand it's painful, okay, but we're always faced with this ultimate question, all of us. Okay, but now what? Right? I mean, Mark, you kind of alluded to that earlier a little bit. Now what? We have to do something. Either we stay there or we move forward. And so, so the thing is that joy in the Lord is unconditional because it's not based on because yeah, you have to be right. What do we what do we say to the brothers and sisters right now in in these different countries where they're being persecuted and they're in a jail cell and they're beating them and they've taken their wives and kids and confiscated their possessions and they're torturing them. Well, I mean, you've you've referenced Frankel how many times the guy's in a concentration camp, and he was able to rise above it in a sense. That's from like a earthly perspective, but for those that know the Lord, it's a knowledge that he's with us and will never leave us nor forsake us. It's a knowledge that that eternity is coming and all of this will end. It's a knowledge that we've been saved from hell. And so, for every person, you know, if they can't do the practicals we're talking about, then then they find whatever they can do within their sphere and they remember truth. They recalibrate with the truth of God's word.

SPEAKER_05 38:49

Yeah, there is hope for someone in a wheelchair. I studied the Paralympics recently and uh how it started. It was a daughter in England who had 17 patients who were products of the war. They'd been shot up and they couldn't walk and stuff like that. He's it was an experiment. He says, let's do a sporting event and a sporting event. And that's what they did, and that started the Paralympics. And uh, there's something soul stirring about seeing a guy in a wheelchair that's just muscle from here up. You know, he's just put everything into it and he's got a new lease of life because he's got something to live for. So I'm sure on the internet you can find groups of people that do this, that are in wheelchairs that do exercise.

SPEAKER_02 39:26

Well, you think of our friend Brandon Maya as an example, the one the young man you got the dog for. Yes. Oh, yeah, Brandon. He's totally disabled, and yet he's he's trying to share the gospel with people, and he's and we've had so many write in of saying, you know, this person this loved one of mine, he's dying of cancer, but he's trying to share the gospel with everyone in the hospital. And again, eternal perspective.

SPEAKER_05 39:48

I got a text from Steve Sanchez, and I've got permission to share this. It came through last night. He said, I appreciate y'all's prayers. Because he lives in Texas. I have congestive heart failure and coronary artery disease. Ah. And this is what he says. I'll be in hospital for three days. Pray that I make the most of this opportunity. It's not as bad as it sounds. It sounds really bad. So this morning I get this video of him on a gurney sharing the biblical gospel with nurses as he's being wheeled into somewhere. So that that he's the only guy on earth that that makes me feel lukewarm. Uh-huh. But it really shows the the attitude that we can't have. I have to go to the hospital. What for? To share the gospel. That's why I'm going. You know? It's the attitude.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

Yeah. Stories throughout history are are litter riddled with that. Mark, uh, I'd love you to speak to what I think is another element we can do practically, and that is to get things done. In other words, to to chart out a course and uh to have goals and and to to daily

Purpose Planning And Staying On Task

SPEAKER_02 40:48

just try to fulfill those. I know you're big on that in terms of like, what do I want to do? You sit down and you craft vision for your year and and the different things. How important is that?

SPEAKER_00 40:57

It's a day-to-day uh task that we need to do. And it's easy to get off task. It's easy to want to let me go check my Instagram. Let me go check in on fill in the blink. So I I actually created a priority sheet that when I have some things that I really need to get accomplished, I'll lay it out and it'll say stuff like um impulse. And the impulse is check Instagram. The impulse is hey, make sure the kids do that thing that I told them to do before. So I get the impulse and I and I do the line. I make a little check that there's the impulse. I recognize that it's there. And then it says rejected. I rejected that impulse to check Instagram, whatever it is, and then I do a check next to that. And just looking down at that, it's a reminder to stay on task. Right. And I have another, I have a piece of paper hung up inside my office that says something to the effect of uh I will reject every urge that is going to remove me from the task at hand. All right. Because it's easy to go throughout your day and really not get anything accomplished. I I want to get accomplished. I want to accomplish things that uh God has placed before me. Uh my superpower, if I wish I had one, if I were to have one, it's the same as Ray's. And that is if I could just never sleep, right? Because I want to get things done. But we also have to remember that sleep is a good thing. Jesus rested. Yeah. And it's it's not the enemy.

SPEAKER_05 42:22

Yeah, you can have 20 minutes a night.

SPEAKER_02 42:23

That's really good. That's actually another another point, too. Sleep, good rest. Good rest. That battles depression.

SPEAKER_00 42:30

It really does. And I think that we tend to measure God the way our feelings uh measure us. And we think that our feelings are facts. You know, Ben Shapiro, facts don't care about your feelings. Feelings don't care about your facts. Fat no, facts don't care about your feelings, right, Ray? Can you sleep on double speed? We begin to question God's love for us because of what we're going through. Yeah. You know, I've served you X amount of years, I've done these things faithfully. Why am I going through this thing? But we have to remember that God's love was demonstrated towards us, and that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. So if he's going to die for us, you tell us what he wouldn't do for us. No good thing is he gonna withhold from those who walk uprightly. Delight yourself in the Lord, he'll give you the desires of your heart. That God is our portion, he's our inheritance, he is what we need. And what happens is we get distracted.

SPEAKER_05 43:25

It's a video, not a video.

SPEAKER_02 43:26

He did a video. I'm like, I could see he's about to hit the video button on a camera.

SPEAKER_05 43:32

No, this is what we can.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

Go ahead, Mark. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

Can I, though? Is it possible?

SPEAKER_02 43:37

Probably not. Okay. Got it. Let me segue. Let me segue here. Yeah, please. Segway? Segway. You know, one of the things that we used to do when the kids were young that I saw change the dynamics of a day for us, like on a weekend, was I would schedule out what we were gonna do during that day. The kids loved it. Versus like just random. And I'm not saying there isn't time for random, relax, you go on a vacant, whatever. Just we're gonna, but I'm just saying, like a lot of times we're just lazing around at home. And what are we gonna do? Are we gonna do anything today? But like the day before, I would schedule it out. We're gonna get up at this time. By the hour. Yeah, we're gonna have breakfast, then we're gonna go and we're gonna go to the park and have a picnic. After the park, we're gonna come home and we're gonna watch a show. Then after that, we're gonna, you know, go to the mall and walk around and get some dessert. The kids loved it, and we would check off one by one. The point in that is purpose. Like you've got you've got a course you're charting in life versus just. And a lot of times it's that aimlessness that causes depression. You know, you have the the okay, I go to work, I come home. But it's like when you have that downtime, you just sit around and you just watch TV or you play video games or you all those things contribute to depression.

SPEAKER_05 44:51

You want to keep the excitement you have as a young kid. Yeah. You know, and there's nothing like a young kid who climbs on everything until he falls and realizes there's such a thing as gravity, but you just got to retain that excitement of wanting to learn and be grateful for life.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

You know, I have a picture of Easy playing a video game. So a book, uh Disciplines of a Godly Man X is down the room.

SPEAKER_02 45:15

They're saying this because they know how much I hate and detest video games. I don't know what happened.

SPEAKER_07 45:19

I don't know. You looked pretty happy in that moment.

SPEAKER_02 45:25

You were having a green down. What hand was in the bag of Cheetos? Running video games.

SPEAKER_07 45:33

Three days, three days anyway. Uh if if I may, I'm just thinking about I just I just had a a good I just got to go to the baptism

Why The Gospel Answers Loneliness

SPEAKER_07 45:42

of a good friend of mine who I've known for about seven, eight years now. When I met him, he was an atheist. And uh and I just got to see the Lord work through conversations and prayer. Um, you know, his sister almost with tears in her eyes at the baptism was like, I never thought this day would come, which is so amazing. Um, but one of the things that he recognized is that without God, he is utterly alone in this world. Oh and I want to point that out to maybe that the non-believer that's listening right now, and you're feeling a sense of depression because you do feel alone. It's interesting because in our day and age, we are told that our identity comes in a self-imbued manner, that you look inside yourself, you determine who you are, and then you be you, you demand the world around you accept it. There's a problem with that. The problem is that we were made to be completely known and to be completely loved. And we cannot ever be completely, we we cannot ever imbued upon ourselves the meaning and the love that we need. It needs to come from outside of ourselves. I love the way C.S. Lewis puts it. He talks about it as a um, he he says it's it's not just lifelong nostalgia, but actually we're longing for something we've yet to experience. So he talks about like this. He says, if you think about when you grow up and you uh you love your home, right? Like you you start out and this is my home, but when you're home, all you ever want to do is leave. I just want to go and start my own home or go on an adventure. You're not satisfied being home. And then you leave and you have the nostalgia home. And you go home and it's not the same. Things have changed. It's just it's not the same.

SPEAKER_05 47:40

Yeah, or that. Right.

SPEAKER_07 47:41

But the point is that when you're home, you don't want to be home. Right. When you leave home, you have a nostalgia for your home, and yet you go home and you don't feel at home. You tracking? He points out that what we're ultimately longing for is an eternal home, that it's a desire that only God can satisfy. And in that same kind of way, if you're experiencing depression as a non-believer, it's because what you need is not self-affirmation, but a love that comes from outside of you. What you need is to be fully known at your worst and yet be fully loved. And that can only happen through the gospel.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

On that note, I want to read this from C.S. Lewis. He said, um, he said, the Christian does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because he loves us. He loved us not because we were lovable, but because he is love. And if he loved us when we were rebels, we may be sure he will not cast us off when we are wounded and struggling. His love is rooted in his nature, not our performance. And that's huge, right? I mean, we talk about unconditional love, but that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Yeah. And that's why that recalibration with truth, you have to recalibrate with truth, or else you're doomed. You just run with your thoughts, but I feel this, but I think this. Okay, yes. We're not denying the fact you think and feel that. We all think and feel all kinds of things. But what's the truth? I I feel like I'm dead. Okay, nice. You're not dead. The fact is you're not. Okay, nice. Okay, nice. That's nice to feel that.

SPEAKER_05 49:19

Okay, that's nice. Right. Here's a very depressing thought for the ungodly, and it's something that we should use to challenge the ungodly. Most people are afraid to be alone. It's a very scary thing. But everybody dies alone. You can surround yourself with your family when you're dying, but when you die, you die alone. And that's why it's so important to cultivate your relationship with Jesus. So if you've got a friend, he's your friend. That's right. He's got me by the hand when I pass through death. And so the ungodly need to be challenged and realize that that's a fearful thing to die, but it's even more fearful to find out what's on the other side. Yeah. The holy God that you've sinned against.

SPEAKER_07 49:58

Yeah, that's so good. I remember the thing that C.S. Lewis said that I was trying to get to, which is he says, you're remembering a home you've never had. And he's he's alluding to the garden, that in the garden we were home, and that there's a part of our souls that we are experiencing this depression that we are recognizing that we aren't where we were where we belong, and yet we also have the promise that we are headed there in the gospel.

SPEAKER_02 50:23

So good. Um, you know, Mark, how about other things like these are the few that come to mind, and I want to get just rich. I've been seeing you battle with that microphone, and I'm feeling the bitterness rise in your heart.

SPEAKER_05 50:36

It's just depressing.

SPEAKER_02 50:39

Microphone's depressed. Uh just give it a minute. Because it has to have Oscar speaking into it all the time. That's my fault. Mark, um but other things like eating well, yeah. Um getting outside. Yeah.

Serve Others And Notice Small Joys

SPEAKER_02 50:54

Someone getting outside. You could do it all at once. Sleep outside, eat, and shower. Shower outside. No, get raised shower. He'll do it.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

I actually slept in a hammock outside for a year. You did? I did. It's a long sleep. And then sprinklers, my parents' sprinklers would wake me up at 5 a.m. And then finally Laura let him come back in.

SPEAKER_02 51:11

You were asleep for a year? That's amazing. It's called a coma. So yeah. I slept under a car once. So eat eat eat well, get outside, um, journal. Journaling helps, uh, you know, uh, and then uh music.

unknown 51:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:28

Music for the soul, right? I mean, that these are the things I have gifts. Yeah, these are the things I ask like someone says I'm depressed. I ask them, are you moving? You know, are you are you eating well? Are you sleeping well? Are you those things are important.

SPEAKER_05 51:40

Your wife, my daughter, sent me a video last night that had me bawling my eyes out each time I watched it. It was the little kid that got saved from a little hole. This little kid fell down a hole. She didn't show you it? Oh, just incredible. And I I said, Why am I crying? Because this is so happy. It was a little kid, toddler, maybe two years old, fell down a deep hole, and no adult could get down. It was so narrow. So they lowered a 14-year-old boy by his ankles and ropes right down to get him, and they dropped him, you see, go down and down and down, and then they pulled it and pulled it, and suddenly, it's like an explosion, where they he came up with that kid in his hands. And the music, crescendo's just as he came up, and that's what made me burst into tears. I'm like, Why am I crying? This is so incredibly happy, happy. And it really is a type of what Jesus did for us in taking us out of the pit.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

And you notice that when the kid came up, that the hero came up, they pushed him to the side. You saw that? Yeah, and they and they moved the little kid off in their own.

SPEAKER_05 52:37

Yeah, and I thought the guy that filmed it was brilliant because he didn't miss what we wanted to see.

SPEAKER_02 52:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:42

Oh, that's so good. Mark, you're gonna show you.

SPEAKER_05 52:44

She never bothered to show you. No, you just showed me. I'm depressed. Are you two still married?

SPEAKER_02 52:50

Maybe she sent it to me, and I just didn't see it.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

Yeah, there's joy in in little things. And if we if we start to see the beauty in little things, uh, then I think that we can recognize it when we're going through a tough time. Yeah. You know, just uh good point. Uh a smile from someone, uh, I mean, fill in the blank. It's it's so great. Yeah. You if you want energy, you have to exert energy. And there's some weird paradoxes attached to just life, life in general, right? Um, rise, kill, eat. You know, I I think that we should uh I mean going hunting, collecting things. Um have you have you guys seen those videos of guys buying like a PS5 or something, these or a PlayStation, and they go inside of like GameStop and they purchase a $500 game console. And then like they begin to cry. Really? Yeah, and the guy, the salesman who's selling it, just realizes and recognizes what just happened, right? This guy's just saved his money, and it's like his out from the mundane of life and the things that he's that he's doing. And you can see person after person, salesman after salesman, going outside of the around the table and hugging the person who's purchasing this thing because they're so excited about them being able to finally have the saying that they're able to save up for that their dad would never let them play. Never never let them play. You know, but little things, right? And this is goes back to um Oscars do the next thing. You know, brush your teeth, get something to eat, call a friend, uh, go on a walk, go down to the beach. You know, these are all things that we're able to do.

SPEAKER_05 54:26

Do something kind for somebody.

SPEAKER_00 54:27

Yeah, right. Serve others. That's a great way. Go, go serve others.

SPEAKER_02 54:30

Oh man, that's you want to be watered? What do you need to do? Yeah, yeah. I don't want to miss that one because that's massive, right? Like when you're down, you serve. Man, serving just breathes life back into you. When you you're able to bless and encourage someone, you know. It's like us, you know, there's times when maybe I'll feel down or whatever, and then we'll get an email. This podcast changed my life. Someone will write about my book. Now they're depressed. I used to be joyful. Uh, but you know, it just and wow, okay, Lord, you're using us, right? We're we're our life means something. That's how you get these big celebrities, and and they get all this money and they wanted to go out and do humanitarian things. They because it's in us to to serve, you know.

SPEAKER_07 55:12

That that reminds me of some of like the most influential people that I've read. Uh one common thing when they mention like a meaning or or like a way in which they see themselves is when they act when they are asked how do you want people to describe you at your funeral. One of the most common words I see is I was useful. I was used by God in some kind of way. I made a difference. I made a difference, right? And I think I think I love what you're getting at, Easy. I think uh ultimately there's just these practical steps. I know you just finished reading Atomic Habits. And one of the things that he talks about in that book, which is a very practical practical book, um, uh great practical advice. One of the things he talks about is building habits based off of your identity rather than just the habit itself. And so the thought is if you want to become a, you don't just say, like, okay, I'm gonna make a habit of writing. No, instead, envision yourself a writer, and then envision what kind of a day a writer would have and build your habits of identity. Identity, right. And so, and so you're experiencing depression, you're stuck in life. What kind of a person do you want to be? What does tomorrow look like for that person? Now plan it out and plan to do it. And I would just add one other thing is like the first hour of your day is the most important hour to be able to get up, um, to not hit the snooze button, to get out of bed, and to start being productive for your own soul, reading the scripture and prayer, um, letting the sun rise on your eyes. These practical steps are so important to get you out of that function. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:54

And let me say, oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_05 56:56

Oh, boredom is the doorway to depression. Yeah. If you're doing nothing. That's true, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 57:01

Yeah. And let me just say on that note, Oscar, another encouragement regarding, you know, overcoming depression is read. Read books. Obviously, read God's word, and that's that's a given. Make make the word your priority, God's presence, seeking after him. But reading books that inspire, like especially biographies of saints that have given their lives over to serving the Lord, and share the gospel. No, Ray doesn't like that.

SPEAKER_05 57:27

No, I I love biographies. Yeah, you know, I've read so many. No, they're inspirational.

SPEAKER_02 57:32

Yeah, they really could. Yeah. Uh, and speaking of biographies, listen to this from from Corey Tenboom. Suppose you have been delivered from a deep pit. Would it not be strange if you spent the rest of your life staring into that pit? The Christian's gaze must be fixed upon Christ. Looking constantly at our failures, fears, and sorrows only deepens discouragement. But looking unto Jesus strengthens faith and restores hope. Talk about someone who was in a pit.

SPEAKER_07 57:58

I think I I think it'd be really helpful to have a caveat here in all of this, which is that some people are

Suicide Warning Signs And Next Steps

SPEAKER_07 58:03

experiencing there's there's depression and there's suicidal thoughts. And let me let me talk to the let me talk to the people who are walking the let's talk about the loved ones who have a loved one who is experiencing depression and they're like, well, what do I do? How do I support? Uh first, there's a great website, it's a Christian website called Grace Alliance. It is it is designed completely to help us get educated on how to have a conversation with somebody experiencing depression, that we can come alongside them and bear those burdens alongside of them. You don't need to know what it feels like to experience depression to be a support to somebody who is having depression. And but but more specifically in regards to suicide, there are certain practical steps that you should do. Um, if someone's experiencing depression and you're worried, the first thing you need to do is ask them if they've had suicidal thoughts. That might make you feel uncomfortable, but it's really important that you get clarity. If they say yes, the next question is: I know this is gonna feel uncomfortable, but all the experts say this is true, and I have found it to be true as well. The next step, if they say yes, is do you have a plan? You might think that that is not the right thing to say, that you'll implement a plan in their mind, but if they've made a plan, there's an escalation in that moment that you need to make sure that person is safe and is getting the help that they need, and that you take the plan away. Because if they say, if you say, for example, do you have a plan? And they say yes, and then they articulate that plan involves a weapon, involves a drug that they have already access to, then you know how to make them feel you you gather around loved ones and you know how to make them feel you know how to make them safe by taking that plan away. Very important, just in regards to escalation of like priority, right? Um, and then of course you seek getting them help that they need. So I just want to make sure it's clear there's depression and there's suicide, and it's good for us to be equipped to understand the difference between those two and how urgent that moment of suicidal ideation might be.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:10

It's very important to realize that many, many people get suicidal thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:14

Yeah, I mean, Ray, you you encounter that you ask that question a lot.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I ask it a lot, and a lot of people say, absolutely, yes, all the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:21

And so uh realize that where it comes from, it's demonic.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:24

Yeah. Just reject it. Um is our movie still on on YouTube? The exit movie we did. We changed it. I think we changed the name different, but it's there.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:32

We changed it to enter.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:34

And do we remember what it's called? I can't remember what it's called. I'd love to look it up. Okay. Yeah, we produced a movie a while back on suicide, and I talked about how before I came to Christ I was suicidal and attempted to commit suicide in front of my family, and and God's grace and deliverance came through in my life through salvation.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:52

And ironically, you two put it down or restricted it because it's on the same thing. But we're there to help.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:58

I know, we're there to help. It's it's weird that how their algorithm works. Um, as Mark looks that up, just some verses to meditate on. Again, that the word of God has to be your foundation. You recalibrate, you calibrate by it, um, recalibrate by it, you seek the Lord, you sit in his presence. But verses like this, Psalm 42, 11, which was cited earlier, why are you downcast, oh my soul, and why are you disquieted within me? Hope in God. Psalm 34, 18. The Lord is near to those that are brokenhearted, and save such as are contrite in spirit. Psalm 147.3, he heals a broken in heart and binds up their wounds. I love Lamentations 3, 21 to 23. This I recall to mind. Therefore, have I hope. It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. They are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness. And um, yeah, so and there's so many more that you could look at in scripture, but but take those, meditate on them, memorize them, and uh recite them to yourself and let that carry you through. Can't find it, Mark? I'm still looking.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:07

But you know what? You can get it at uh livingwaters.tv. And you can jump in there. There's a free subscription. Um you can fully free films.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:16

Is it on fully freefilms? Yeah, I think it is as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:18

Yeah, fullyfreefilms.com. That probably would be the best route to go. And if you're subscribed to subscribe to LivingWaters T, you can check it out there. All right, friends, time is gone. Don't forget, check out Ray's book, God has a wonderful plan for your life. Like, subscribe,

Verses To Hold Onto And Closing

SPEAKER_02 1:02:33

share. And don't forget, podcast at livingwaters.com. We want your thoughts and your questions and your suggestions and all sorts of things. It's called Exit. Ex Fully Free Films. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:46

Nope. It's been taken down.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:48

Off of Fully Free Films? Well, because that's linked to YouTube. So LivingWaters.tv is you can get it, you can get a free seven-day, three-day trial and watch it for free there.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:57

Check it out there. And uh, we'll try to remember in a subsequent episode if we uh we do find it. Because I I'm sure it's on YouTube somewhere. All right, Fran. We have no clearly have no idea. We have no idea where it is. All right, Frank. Thank you for joining us. We'll see you here next time on the Living Hunters but we have no idea what we're doing.