How to Handle Difficult Clients | Episode 25

In this episode, the infamous Reade joins us as we talk about how to deal with difficult clients and the approach necessary to navigate that. We also mention the new trailer for Obi-Wan Kenobi and the Force theme.

Enjoy!

Here are the links to all mentioned articles/videos in this episode:
TechCrunch - Better.com employees learned of layoffs when severance checks appeared in payroll app
YouTube - Obi-Wan Kenobi | Teaser Trailer |
YouTube - Luke's Entrance but with the Force Theme  

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David Baxter has been designing, building, and advising startups and businesses for over ten years. His passion, knowledge, and brutal honesty have helped dozens of companies get their start.

In Biz/Dev, David and award-winning Creative Director Gary Voigt talk about current events and how they affect the world of startups, entrepreneurship, software development, and culture.

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Transcript

David: 0:09

Hi, everyone, welcome to biz dev, the podcast about developing your business. I'm David Baxter. And I am joined today by the one and only read Milner who you have heard of, but never actually heard from. So what's up, man? How are you? Thanks for joining in.

Unknown: 0:25

Thanks for having me, David.

David: 0:27

I actually met Reed, because he interviewed me for his little series. What is that two years ago or something like that? For adults? Right?

Unknown: 0:35

I forgot about that. Yeah, you were one of my first guest on that podcast, actually.

David: 0:39

Oh, well see, and it was magical. And in from and we we came best buds ever since. So. So he's stepping in Gary had some power issues, all of a sudden, we were about to start and his power went out for the next few hours. So Reid graciously decided to step in. And and here we are, so we're gonna jump right into it. So all right, I want to talk to you about this. Have you heard of better.com? Do you know who they are? I do. Yeah. So this is a mortgage company, right mortgage lender, you know, one of the new breed of digital mortgage lenders. And this guy, the CEO got in trouble a few months ago, because he decided to lay off 900 people through a zoom call. And it went all over the news. And he got put on leave so he could take some courses out to be, I guess, better communicator. So he's starting strong, right? This guy, what is his name? Vishal Garg, Vishal Garg.

Unknown: 1:40

If, if you have to tell somebody, that that's an insensitive thing to do? I don't know that any amount of courses or counseling is going to make it clear to him?

David: 1:53

Well, that's that's completely fair. But what's even better is the dude didn't seem that well. I almost feel bad for him, because he got caught again. They laid off another 3000 people. So better calm is not doing better, as it were. Oh, to like that, thank you. But um, but I'll be here all week. They were not. They, they were going to lay off 3000 people, and they were going to do it on March 8, but they pulled the plug. And but they didn't tell the payroll company that. And so the severance packages went out anyways. And so people found out they were laid off because of their pay stub. And I'm like, Dude, I mean, come on. So you're right, whatever lessons he supposedly learned, failed. Now, again, it is just like the perfect storm of oops, right. So this could theoretically happen to anybody. But it happened to this guy. So he

Unknown: 2:50

he learned a lesson. I don't know that the courses that he's taken taught him the lesson, but but he will not likely make this mistake ever again.

David: 3:00

Well, how many mistakes can you make when laying people off? That's what I don't understand. I thought, you know, you would take it really serious.

Unknown: 3:07

Yeah, there, there are no easy ways to do it. There's no doubt I had a good friend of mine who, during the 2008 financial crisis, they had to layoff 50 employees in one day. And he had to he had them all in the room. And there was no easy way to do it. And he said, It was the most tear filled thing that he'd ever been through worse than his life. And I'm sure that didn't make any of them feel that much better. But there is a level of empathy that is not required, necessarily, but there's a level of empathy that one wants to see when that happens. And yeah, it just didn't happen in this better.com scenario.

David: 3:51

You've got to do a one on one, you've got to absolutely, I got laid off in 2003. And my company I had been working for it was a consulting firm in Houston. And I they had laid off I think a year before and I had made the cut off. And so I was I barely apparently according to somebody who found out the list I was like the last one they didn't cut. So this is really early in my career. I will readily admit I was useless the first couple years I worked and that I could talk about that for hours but they did another round a year later. So I got laid off and I meant I was crying. I don't know why it was crap. But I'll tell you I got teary because it's just like such like a gut punch to your ego right? You're not good enough right? Some people are good enough you're not one of them is basically what a layoff said to me. And that was brutal. And so yeah, to me, you if you're going to have to say that you need to look me in the eye and you need to say and to credit of the company I work for they did it well. Right. Well, it was a private meeting that gave me time to collect myself. I left and you know the whole bit but this guy This guy's not doing that. No, no, I'm not, I'm gonna find other ways to do it. Because apparently he just does 3000 people too. So they'll make that'd be a lesson to all of you startup founders and stuff, you know, lay off people one on one ligament we have a two parter. So the first part I want to talk about real quick, get your thoughts on this, this would be really, I kind of am sad that we don't have you for longer because this is kind of right up your wheelhouse. Set the boy I just butchered that deny that you did not want something up in your wheelhouse

Unknown: 5:38

up your alley or in your wheelhouse.

David: 5:43

Oh, that was bad. Do not go up your wheelhouse anyway. So we're going to talk about expand upon what we talked about last week, which was how to validate your idea. Without building your idea. Right, validate first find the traffic, we talked about that quite a bit. And what we're gonna do now is that requires money. And that requires not not as much as building the app, but it does require some investment, you know, to buy the ads to hire the the pros to do it, like we talked about last week, what I want to do is take one more step back and even go earlier than that, what you can do, and again, this is Reed's bailiwick. So I really am interested in what you think of this. The idea here is, I've got an idea, right? A startup idea that I want to see if it's got legs. Instead of diving in and spending real money, what you could do is go and see how Google treats various search terms. And see if there's any legs to your idea yet. It's not actually SEO, like I'm making a website and catering to SEO because that takes months. I'm talking about just using Google's planning tools, which are free, you know, using their, their their trends, tools, again, free and finding out if people are actually searching in any number, you're not going to millions, of course have the data to be a business. But to find if there's enough of a long tail of for that might suggest before you invest any money that that this is worth doing. Do you think read in your marketing professional opinion that there's actually legs to that idea? Is there really a way through that? Or is that just you're you're so far in the longtail you're not gonna have enough traffic and you got a bunch of empty graphs?

Unknown: 7:25

No, there's there's 100% legs to that, I would say that it needs to be filtered through a couple of different checks, right? Number one, it would be a good idea to just do the the SEO research the search app Search Engine Optimization research and see if there is web traffic looking to solve that problem. Right? How how can I rent out my home to you know, how can I how can I make money from my vacation? All right, Airbnb, right, there's there's validation. That's one way of doing it in a very obvious sense. Another less obvious sense that you'd want to you'd want to go to as maybe a layer to check would be the Google cost per click. Now this is it's similar. But instead of looking for what people are searching for, which is what you're doing when you're looking at the search engine traffic, when you check the cost per click, you're actually seeing what companies are paying to own that keyword on jogl.

David: 8:31

Back out for a second, pretend I'm an idiot. It's not very hard. What is cost per click? Explain that.

Unknown: 8:38

Sure. Yeah, so cost per click is is a term CPC, you might see it phrase that way. This is essentially the price to rent a specific keyword or search term on Google as an ad. So for example, if I'm selling auto insurance, I want to I want to spend money so that when people search for auto insurance, or how to buy auto insurance, my ad is the very first thing they see in the Google search results. It goes above the organic results. It goes it's the first thing you see. It's like half the first page now it is it's it's it's become a little obnoxious, right. But it's it's the first thing people see. And there's a reason companies like GEICO will spend millions millions of dollars a month to own those key terms. Now, that's a very obvious example. But if you're looking at something, let's take that Airbnb example again. And you're you're trying to figure out if it makes sense if there's if there is monetary value in being an answer to that problem. I'd want to look and see what bigger companies are spending to acquire that traffic. If they're spending a decent amount of money if it's a dollar $3 $5 Just to own a click just to purchase a click, then that tells me well, they're making a lot of money on that traffic. So time vacation,

David: 10:12

if you are a brand new company? Yep. I wouldn't say you found the term if you pay $6 A click versus everybody is $5. A click because it is an auction, if I remember correctly, right? Yes, you don't know you know approximately what they're paying. But Google is going to teach you to make you pay on the top of that, right? Fair,

Unknown: 10:32

fair, Google's algorithm is is doing a quick supply and demand calculation to determine how much they should price the keywords. For example, if I tried to go out and purchase, let's say, if I tried to go out and purchase traffic, if I tried to own the key phrase for something really, really long tail, and by longtail, I, I'm I'm saying something like barber shops near me, Raleigh, North Carolina, men's hair, right? That's something extremely long tail, that's very specific, it'll cost me two cents to own that traffic. But in that auto insurance example, if I want to own the term for auto insurance, I'm gonna have to pay $50 A click because there's millions of people searching,

David: 11:18

there's whales. And so it's not necessarily the, the if if I find a term, like I'll use web design, that's a beast. If I said, I'm making a new company, that's going to make web design better, and I want to buy the clicks for web design, I wouldn't recommend that for anybody because you're going to burn through your budget, and you're fighting with whales, and you will lose that fight. Because you can't keep up with them. Like, you know, if I have$1,000 budget, and that click is 10 bucks a click your $1,000 budgets gonna last like an hour. What did that do for you? Right? So what you can do, again, using web design as a as a, an example. I could say, okay, web design is and I'm making this up, because I don't know how much it is because we would never pay this. But it's like 10 or 15 bucks a click right. It's something crazy, because there's a lot of fighting going on, right? You can say okay, let's get more specific. Okay, now I'm going to do Raleigh web design. Okay, now that might be $3, a click still expensive for a startup. Right. So now I can say Raleigh, medical web design. Now I'm getting to the point where I now I'm saying I'm looking for medical places in Raleigh that need a new website, right? That's kind of the train I'm wandering down. And let's say that's 50 cents a click OK. And you can say, using those keyword planners are people looking at this. Now, once you get too far down, again, correct me wherever I'm wrong. If you're getting too far down, Google is gonna fall off the map, and they're gonna say, I don't have enough data. But you have to get pretty far down, they can get pretty in the weeds before they go. Nothing. There's nothing here. Right?

Unknown: 12:51

Yeah. And that, that's, you're absolutely right about that. And that's where the strategy and that's where the, the entrepreneurial thinking is gonna have to start, right? Because if we've gone so long tail, if we've gone so far down that rabbit hole, that there's there's not enough data, there's not enough search traffic for people, people trying to solve that problem, then we have one or two things that are happening, either there is no current solution, right? You may be providing one of the only, or the only solution to this problem. To me, I'm not really interested in being in that business. Right? Because it, it probably more likely means that there is no market for it. Right, you can create a market for something that is absolutely something that has been done.

David: 13:42

But that's very hard, very expensive, very, very

Unknown: 13:45

hard and very, very expensive. So I would go to the third layer in this, you know, using the internet research to validate a business idea. And I would go and look on social media, and there are tools that you can use for this. But you can also just search Twitter, use Twitter search or Twitter hashtag searches. Yeah, I mean, you can you can look for people asking about this on social media, it very well could be that there is a maybe maybe it's a local or regional answer here. And and what people are doing is they're looking for answers to that, or they're trying to solve that problem using social media because there's not very good search traffic or search results for that. So that would be the third check there.

David: 14:34

Gotcha. Okay, so wrapping it up, because I want to I want to move on to our next meaty point this week. We got to if you are going to go this route, this is free. Big bonus. Yep. But it might be worth it is free to do that. You can go to Google Trends, just search Google Trends or Google Keyword Planner. Both of those are free tools. You can just start using them. That's really great. But what you might want to do spend a little bit of money. And I would say you're hiring a pro for a few hours, right not to do anything, except to potentially interpret the results. Because unless you know this world, like, I don't know, this read knows this stuff, but I don't I, we don't live in this world. So I would not feel comfortable looking at this going, is this a good CPC? Is this a good amount of traffic? Is this too little? Right? Hire a guy and I promise you can find a million marketing guys who will charge you a couple 100 bucks Max, to interpret this for a couple hours and really help you nail this down. I think that's a really cheap way of saying, yeah, it's worth going to the next stage, which would be then to actually use those clicks, and which was what we were talking about before. So all this feeds in, right, all the stuff that stuff we talked about last week, that's step two, as it were, if we wanted to go with this route, you would add this Google searching and social media searching to this first, then that, then you build your know your landing page and all the stuff we talked about before it's we're building a choo choo train, as it were, to give you validation that it's worth spending and investing in your idea. So that's very, that's cool. That's cool stuff. We've, we've seen some people asking around about, what do you do with a difficult client? Right? This affects every single business on the planet. I've got a client. And usually, and I'll preface this, you won't tip if this was one on one and the guy's a difficult client, and what and I'll explain what difficult means and second, in this context, if it's a one on one situation, you should just not work for this guy, or gal, right? It's, that's not what I'm saying. Usually, this is a, let me define. So a difficult client in this case would be someone who's kind of undermining you. They're not really the check writer, right? They're not the main client, but they're on the stakeholders list. They're in the meetings with you talking about whatever you're doing. And they always kind of just arrived in it, right? You never are good enough. They're gonna throw you under the bus at any point. I mean, this is everybody who's ever dealt with clients has, or larger clients has dealt with this person. And they're, if they can get you in trouble, they will, they will steal your ideas and claim them. These are right, it's just kind of this CD, under tone that that just seeps into the project. Right, we've all dealt with this. So the question is, how do you deal with it? I'll give you first stab there. Read what, what do you do in this case?

Unknown: 17:42

Well, let me let me make sure I'm defining this scenario, because if it's what I've got, in my head, I know exactly what you're talking about. And I would say that this this is ever present, especially if you are if you're a consultant, if you are an agency, if you if you do something that bolts on to an existing companies team, right, where where there is a potential, at least at least what is felt is that there's a threat to somebody whose job, right? And that's that whether or not that's true. You know, we're humans, and we all have insecurities. And we all have those those types of things. And usually, that's where this stuff stems from. Yeah, is you're in the room, or on the virtual call, and Joe, who is the head of it, or he's the lead developer, or he is the guy who does the thing that you now are coming in to do, he's going to or if he's if he's less secure in his, in his value position, he's going to try to undermine you as the guy who doesn't know what he's talking about some, some high, you know, some some high paid consultant who doesn't, can't can't do what he is saying he can do or whatever, right? What what I have experienced, or at least in my experience, what I've done is, is immediately up front, just call that out, right? Hey, I understand what I may look like or what I may represent to some of you in the room. And let me make it clear what I'm not here to do. I'm not here to take anybody's job, right, I'm not here or we might you know, my firm is not here to replace anybody. We're not here to take stuff away from anybody we're here to help you be better in your role we're here to help you be more effective X y&z Whatever, whatever the end value proposition is. Trying to call that out right away. And that's, that's probably the first step thing.

David: 19:53

So you're going to be bold. You're going you're going right in there swinging.

Unknown: 19:57

I've done it looking. Yeah, some Sometimes you have to read the room. Right? If it's a if it's a larger, you know, it is it's a feel thing. But I do like to call it out because I've done it enough to know what what I represent. Right. And it's exactly that right. There's there's a threat there, especially in industries, like yours frankly, were short. There's it's well known that there's some what's what's the phrase? Right that there's a lot of gatekeeping. And there's a lot of protectiveness,

David: 20:34

a lot of bureaucracy and a lot of a lot of the organization's

Unknown: 20:36

Yeah, goodness. Yeah. So so it's, it's, I just know it's going to happen. And you know, what, if it if it isn't, if it doesn't happen, well, then I've just wasted maximum 90 seconds making that explanation and nobody thinks, but another thing of it, but if there was that thought in somebody's head, you could potentially turn a an adversary into an ally from the get go.

David: 21:00

All right, all right. I approach it differently. Not that that's a bad approach. But mine is ties into, again, my big core value of transparency. To me, this is where the transparency really becomes important. Because you know that this person, you built this relationship, you know, this person is going to be undermining your work, right? You know, this, this isn't a surprise. And potentially, your client actually knows this, too. But what I usually do say is, be upfront about it, put everything in writing, this is what we did, this is what we're doing. toot your own horn, and not in a boastful way. But to say, this is what you're getting for the money you paid us whether this general, like you said, is a services kind of issue. But anybody can deal with this. If you're augmenting someone and helping a company in any way, they this could be construction even right? I mean, it doesn't have to be digital thing. But if you're upfront, and you say, this is what we do, we're gonna we're gonna explain how awesome we are in a polite way so that when those undermining come in, we have proof against that. The other thing is, we want to make sure that we do what we say. That's, that's hard to do sometimes, but you know what I'm saying it's, it's, some things go sideways, whatever you want to be up front, you want to get in front of that. So they're not the one leading that charge. That's another thing that's important. And you want to make sure you've just you're building that relationship as best you can. If they're taking your ideas and claiming them. I honestly don't care, because they're still my ideas. And we're still the ones who are going to implement them. So until I don't honestly care if I get credit for an idea, if you want to take that repackage it and send it up and get approval for it. Cool. Now, some people have a tough time with that. Right? Some people want credit for that. You know, that's, that's for each person. But I don't mind that one. Actually, what I mind is the snide comments, the Oh, it's not working, what prove it's working, right? Because it's a language thing. It's semantics. At that point, it's your award versus Ooh, well, now if I can bring in proof, you win. Right? Because it's words versus evidence. And that's, that's where I usually come in. And eventually, hopefully, they back off, because you've proven yourself so much that that that doubt that they're trying to so the boss, whoever that is, is not listening anymore.

Unknown: 23:23

Yeah, you do have to. And so you're taking it from a person, or you're the example you're using is one in which there's already been some issues, right? So my example only works if you're coming in, gotten out ahead of it, right, if you're getting started. But if you notice, this kind of thing happens. I would also add to that, that, you know, there's there's also nothing wrong. Well, let me let me even back up a little bit. It starts with your own security and confidence in your business. Right? Yeah, you know, you this is a difficult thing to do. And it's very, very difficult if you're just getting started out. But you've got to have a little bit of the mindset of, hey, if this client relationship ends, because of something that's out of my control, like like a jealous employee who's trying to harm my credibility, then I can I can live with that, right? I can always live with losing a client as much as I hate it much as I would prefer not to I can always live with losing a client, because of something that's out of my control, right. My job is to do what I have said I'm going to do and to do it as well as I can. And if there's somebody that's just got it out for me, and it's going to try to smear me to the boss behind closed doors, and I can't impact that I'm okay saying to the client to the actual check writer. So hey, look, it's evident to me that there's some internal issues with with my and our presence, and if that's causing so much of a problem that you have, there's the company As coalition against us, I'm becoming less value, we're becoming less valuable as a result of it. And, and you're not going to be happy whether I get into a debate with this guy on a call, and I when we've created this big mess that I don't really want to be a part of. So you know what? I think I'll just bow out. We've got plenty of other business, we've got plenty of other engineers.

David: 25:22

Yeah, you come at that from a strong statement. But I can tell every business owner listening to this is like, he doesn't understand I can't lose this client. Because generally, if you're just starting out, right, and you're in this situation, this is probably your biggest client. Right? Because you're getting started out. And there's generally this only happens with larger teams. So most likely, if you if you're dealing with this, and you're new, this is probably your biggest client. And you're like, I can't lose them. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna

Unknown: 25:53

totally fair. Yeah, I mean, if I had given myself that advice, five, six years ago, I would have said, yeah, that that sounds nice for another, another person and another time. Yeah, I mean, the advice to, we'll say, the earlier version of myself and somebody else is in that role. I mean, it's hard as this is, you might have to what's, what's the podcast appropriate phrase? You might have to swallow some pride, right? Suck it up. Suck it out. Yeah,

David: 26:21

I would say that just

Unknown: 26:23

Yeah. And just let it go.

David: 26:25

If it's your biggest client, or one of your biggest clients, one that if you lost it, you would be wrecked. Right? And all new businesses have those clients, then sometimes you just my advice comes more from that you have to suck it up. You can't let them go. So how do you deal with it, you deal with it by providing evidence being transparent, showing who you are showing the value you're providing? And then if that doesn't work, that's, that's all you can do. Right? What you don't want to do is engage this person directly. You do not want to make it uncomfortable, because boy that that will pay bad dividends forever. Right? Every time they're in a meeting, it was a weird funk in the air, and no one wants to be in that room, but the funk. So you've got you can't just say Hey, dude, I'm tired of you send those stupid emails. No, don't do that. You might want to resist the urge. You will shoot yourself right in the face.

Unknown: 27:19

Yeah, swallow that pride. We could be digging ditches in the rain. Right? Our work gets to be sitting in a comfortable air conditioned office, mostly at home with our sweat pants on. But even if you are not that cushy, there are tougher things you could have to do to put food on the table

David: 27:46

have you seen the obi one trailer? Are you excited about that? David, I

Unknown: 27:50

have been waiting for Star Wars to put out good stuff. And that's this is not meant to I'm not one of those Star Wars haters. What I mean by that is that every time they come out with something, I feel like an 11 year old again and I get so pumped. And I've been waiting on this one in particular because they're bringing it back to my favorites. They're bringing back Hayden Christianson.

David: 28:16

He's one of your favorites. Sorry, you

Unknown: 28:18

have to remember i i was i was i was a kid when the prequels were released. Oh my gosh, which which means

David: 28:28

I was in college shut out was my dirty mouth.

Unknown: 28:31

That was my first experience. And it tried to tell an 11 year old that space ninjas with laser swords is not the coolest thing in the world. You know direction and dialogue. Be completely for acting, acting and acting. You know as an adult, right? I can I can look with a critical eye at the prequels. But you know what the sequels? Were No. Eight, they were the third best of the trilogies and I'm afraid that I'm an adult who's seeing those for the first time I've been an adult seeing those for the first time because almost jealous of the childlike wonder that I saw the

David: 29:14

shores with Yeah, my kids don't like Star Wars because it's so cheesy to them. Right? They see the originals and they don't it wasn't magical because they've seen Marvel movies, right? It's not it's not the same thing. So I know. I'm I'm very excited about Obi Wan what one you McGregor's, an amazing actor, but two. I really enjoyed the Mandalorian Yeah, Boba Fett was great when the Mandalorian was there. So that works, so I'm hoping they're gonna keep building on this. But I'm excited about it. It comes out later this year. Right.

Unknown: 29:49

Spoiler alert. I am man enough to admit that the scene in the season two finale of the Mandalorian When Luke Skywalker shows up, and I had a few tears

David: 30:05

oh yeah for sure loves it series they're bringing it back at first I was afraid they were gonna bring real ammo and some bad makeup

Unknown: 30:12

but real Luke real Luke not whiny yeah he's in his elbow finally real Luke and if you've seen if you haven't seen the RE I guess the remix of the that scene with the with the Star Wars music with with the with the different music it will if you're a Star Wars fan that remix with the that video will give you chills we need

David: 30:43

to put need to put that in the show notes because I'm definitely going to put that there. It's the thing oh, by the way, speaking of chills, and I'll end on this the thing that really got me pumped the Obi Wan when they have the duel of the fates music in the background, which I believe I'm sure there's a hot take. I believe that's the best Star Wars music John Williams ever wrote. That is amazing. Because Darth Maul, there's all sorts of images that come to my mind with that. I am very excited about that. And so yeah, I'm getting I'm, they're totally playing that because it's like, you know, that's an amazing piece of music, you could put that in front of anything, and it's gonna make it sound awesome.

Unknown: 31:15

But listen to that one I work.

David: 31:18

I do some development when they're doing the fades as you were reading some serious copy. Alright, man, I appreciate you coming in on such literal short notice. I literally asked him to do this 30 seconds before we started recording. So we are flying by the seat of our pants here. But I I appreciate it very much I know you need to run. And I thank you very much for your time, we are going to be do one last little plug here we're starting a thing called biz dev shorts, which are going to be in our podcast feed, they're going to be much shorter, and we're going to cut out all the cruft and it's just the meat potatoes should be no more than 10 minutes per episode. So if you're wanting to get a quick fix, or you want someone, hey, this is really good stuff. And you pass that on to your startup, friends and stuff like that. That's what those are for. So those are gonna be starting the next week or two. If you already listened to the whole podcast, then you get the whole short as well. But if you're not into the nerd talk that we have sometimes you just want the meat potatoes, we're going to be creating those for you. So keep an eye out for those. And if you have questions, feel free to email us at Hello at the big pixel dotnet and we will try to get them up here on the next episode. Thank you guys so much for joining us.