Are Startup Accelerators Worth It? | Episode 26

In this episode, Gary and David talk about startup accelerators: what they are, how they work, and if they are worth it for your startup. They also nerd out a bit with talk of David's Dungeons and Dragons obsession.

Enjoy!

___________________________________

Submit Your Questions to:

hello@thebigpixel.net

OR comment on our YouTube videos! - Big Pixel, LLC - YouTube

Our Hosts

David Baxter - CEO of Big Pixel

Gary Voigt - Creative Director at Big Pixel

The Podcast

David Baxter has been designing, building, and advising startups and businesses for over ten years. His passion, knowledge, and brutal honesty have helped dozens of companies get their start.

In Biz/Dev, David and award-winning Creative Director Gary Voigt talk about current events and how they affect the world of startups, entrepreneurship, software development, and culture.

Contact Us

hello@thebigpixel.net

919-275-0646

www.thebigpixel.net

FB | IG | LI | TW | TT : @bigpixelNC

Big Pixel

1772 Heritage Center Dr

Suite 201

Wake Forest, NC 27587

Music by: BLXRR

Transcript

Unknown: 0:08

Everyone, welcome to the biz dev Podcast, the podcast about developing your business. I'm David Baxter, your host, and I'm joined by Gary, he's back again. Last week he had internet problems and had to bail right before the podcast started, like literally what 10 minutes. He was chatting about 10 minutes before we started. And so I throw an audible and called Read EULA Milner and to take over and join us. You can see that mess from last week. Now. Just kidding. We're fine. reads a very interesting human being. Yeah, as long as you can get them excited about it. Okay, I saw the and I've read the reviews and stuff. I will say up front, I think apples silicon division is no class by itself. And Intel and AMD and everybody else is absolutely getting mopped up by these people. They are I don't know where they came from. They must have worked at other companies before. But whatever Apple's doing to them is amazing. Because that ultra chip is fun. All Yes, I agree. And I have to say I was not expecting an announcement like that from from this announcement or whatever you want to call it this. Their event would you call their event? Event? Yeah, event predicted that it was gonna be pretty boring. And it was not boring. No, I thought it was just going to be like an iPad or an iMac pro with like the M one and m one pro just to kind of move it up the line like everything else was not Yeah, totally new chip, totally neutral enter totally new type of computer. They haven't made a desktop computer since the 90s, I believe, which is pretty crazy. I mean, a separate computer, a separate computer. They had the Mac Mini, which is kind of the play Mac, the Mac Pro with the Okay, I and cheese great. The $25,000 computer, yeah. And then they have the Mac Mini, which is always the weak guy. And then they have the iMac in the middle, which is the all in one, which usually has pretty weak specs. So now they have basically a good old fashioned desktop computer called the MAC studio. That is either 2000 or$4,000 minimum, depending on if you get the max and ultra chips, which I will leave to the pros to talk about basically two maxes stuck together in a new process. Two mn Max chips. You can say spliced together, what do they use? What are they infinity fusion, something like that something fusion? But yeah, it's just two chips working. It's amazing. It's again, it's truly amazing, but it is superduper expensive. And the reviews I've seen have said hey, the difference isn't that big. In real world applications. You can do benchmarks and the thing is a screamer. And it's a difference. difference in weight between the Ultra and the max. Yeah. Okay, if, if you compare it out, no, it's still the M one chips are still on a class by themselves. No one's touching them. And that's amazing. But they're saying, Hey, you can buy the $2,000 one with the max in it. And you're going to notice a huge improvement over almost any other desktop you can buy. When you spend an extra big pile of money the Ultra. It's not that big of a difference, like oh, maybe not for over the max. For the majority of well, this is for the pros using it right? I was watching the view reviews, and they're giving it to video editors, they're given an audio engineer, any student give it to the people who would use this. And they're like, Man, this is amazing. It's so fast. But when they said I'm gonna go do my work on a max versus an ultra, the like, you might have a difference to justify that price is really the but it's it's amazing. I will say that I think they it is a boring looking computer. I don't know why they didn't make it pretty. It looks. It's a Big Mac Mini with a lot of holes on the back. I gotta say that's probably the number one complaint I've seen from I guess you could say the creative field about it. You're like, wow, it could do this. Go do that. And it's cheaper than a Mac Pro. It's probably more than I might need. But everything I want and then yeah, but it's kind of ugly. Why didn't they make it at least black? Because it's gonna say that along with all the silver stuff in the pro line and everything else. Like what does it surprise they didn't do a space gray option too. Yeah, I'm just saying like, I've got the bright silver one and then I've got a black one or you know, whatever they call their black. I just because they came out with a whole line of black peripherals, keyboards and mice and stuff. And at the very least, it seems like they could have done that and then it might have just become invisible on your desk. Now it's just this huge block of metal. I don't know it's The design is weaksauce. When you talk about these are the guys who make the, the iMac which is gorgeous. They make the the iPhones which are gorgeous. In their MacBooks. I'm telling you every Apple fan, when they watched the unveiling of it and they showed the the intake at the bottom with all the holes, the first thing they were thinking, oh no another trash can remember that. That thing at the time was this combination of a Mac Mini and a trash came in the trash can data came out a statically was thought it was revolutionary. No one had ever done a circular computer like that. And at the time, if you read those old reviews, everyone thought it was amazing. Now he turned out to be an absolute heat monster. And it wasn't a good design from Iraq. Everybody thought it was amazing. I think the concept they thought was the engineering was amazing. No one liked the way it looked. That's why it was dubbed the trashcan. And so they came out with a traditional cheese grater, which is a huge tower PC. And I'm very intrigued because what the Mac Pro is, is a line of computers that I didn't think was necessary. But there's a whole class of people who need a $50,000 desktop computer. And they're doing 3d graphics and crazy stuff. Yeah. And what's I think the thing I saw on the review the verge of you in particular, that they said they have a $17,000 Mac Pro that their video editor uses. And she says that this, I don't think she was even using the Ultra, but even if she was a 4000 $5,000 computer was running circles around that Mac Pro. Yeah, that sort of thing. It's a lot of people that do have the Mac Pro towers that they you know, specked out or close to spec out are now looking at the studio and going well, gotta sell the Mac Pro, because now they're gonna, or they're gonna make a new Mac, that they're gonna make a new Mac Pro. But I mean, what are they going to do? So they're not going to sell you parts to replace stuff in the Mac? No, no, you have to get rid of your your. But if you're working for Pixar, or you're working for ilm, or any of these people who have these workstations, they don't care. That's true. What was 50,000 bucks? I mean, that's what I think that's really interesting, though, that the $70,000 computer is getting trounced by a $4,000. That's impressive. And that makes me really curious as to what that Pro will be. But we'll see what that is. The last thing I want to talk about is that studio display, they came out with a new 27 inch monitor. Yeah, everybody's got to hot and cold takes on this one. This is I think the verge set at the best where they like if you think you need a high def and a 5k display, it's a 27 inch 5k display. If you need that, then you think this price is great. And you're excited to get this. If you don't need that, then you think this is absolutely ridiculous. I fall into that latter camp, I think the thing is silly. It doesn't have any like local dimming, or any of the stuff that all the fancy monitors now have is one on off switch. So that means your blacks are never truly black. It's just it is old tech wrapped in a new frame. That's my my take it's not even a hot take. That's like half of the world. But it is you're paying $1,600 for five year old tech in a pretty wrapper with some sweet speakers. Yeah, and a bad webcam apparently bad webcam from what the review said that it was a 12 megapixel just like the it is but the colors are trash. They were doing a comparison of it versus the MacBook Pro webcam and the iPhone, which all should have the same sensor in them. And it was it was bad. Like Nora and Apple said, Well, we're gonna fix that. So, anyway, I'll give you time to go fanboy on it Go Go forth. Oh, no. So tell me how you already ruined all my hopes. No, the display didn't really do anything for me. It's cool. I'm glad they have a display that's cheaper than their SDR $5,000 One it's ridiculous that they're charging for stands that do different things like $400 for an adjustable stand. Yeah, I mean, I had the old Apple Cinema Display the 24 inch. You know what I'm talking about back when that was a 4k display back then. Right? Yeah, and it was the the screen was the anti reflective screen or whatever. And I love that thing and it lasted me a long time. It was great. I'm probably not gonna buy another apple display though not when they're coming in at these prices for I'm just curious. Why there's obviously a market for 5k and beyond screens High Definition displays. Why are the apple the only one that LG makes one that notoriously is bad. So I don't Understand why Dell is not making one of these. Why is Samsung? Samsung has five kids, but they don't do that? Oh, not 5k? No, they make 4k ones. And they do really well with HD. Yeah, and the four things are great. Yeah. main subject today we're gonna talk about accelerators. Like in your car, not an accelerator in your car? No, I'm not equipped to talk about that. I'm talking about a startup accelerator. There are a lot of them. There are there are? Well, I shouldn't say there are a few you might have heard of, if you're in the startup space, or you've started your own business. And there are a million that you haven't heard of, some are good, some are trash. Now, do accelerators also go hand in hand with like investment groups and stuff like that sometimes. So what generally speaking an accelerator, there's, there's lots of flavors of this. But their goal is to help a new company precede, right? They haven't raised money, typically, they will usually give you mentorship, a community of other people to join in with access to potentially like the bigger ones will give access to potential customers potential, you know, they're just getting you exposure, those are the really big ones that's probably worth the most. And they invest in you for a period of time, usually a few months, where the bigger ones, you'll move out to a place like Y Combinator is the granddaddy of them all. Some of the biggest startups on the planet started there, like Airbnb was one of the early Y Combinator. So there's a lot of them are big, big household names now with their Y Combinator, and what they take for all of this is they take equity, sometimes they give you money, a lot of times they give you a little bit of seed money, I think a few $100,000, typically, and they take equity for that. That is so they're generally kind of assisting you from the ground floor, they're seeing the potential of your business, they're kind of helping you along to grow that potential and maybe, you know, pivot your position a little bit here and there to, to what makes more sense for the market, they envision for you. And then if they see that you have a future in this, and they're going to start giving you money and asking for equity and helping you build this so that you know, you apply and you say this is what I bring to the table. And usually the bigger ones, you have to you have to have a product that's out there and has some traction, not a lot of traction, you're not going to be big and exciting, you wouldn't be needing this. But they don't generally, it depends on this startup accelerator, but they generally want you to be further the big boys want you to be further down the line than just an idea. And they give you help and resources in exchange for equity. And they're their money maker is there going to take 10 or 15% of your company. And they do that to 100 company and five of them become unicorns. And that's how they make their money. Right. So it's exactly like the show Shark Tank. Shark Tank is based Well, it's Shark Tank is the idea for people who might not understand the startup called sort of a shark tank is basically I'm going to take a part of your company, I might give you money. But I'm really what I'm saying is I'm gonna put my name behind it. I think that's more of a celebrity kind of thing. Where you know, Mark Cuban, says, I'm going to help you sell your shirts. And so you start seeing Mark Cuban in an ad on Instagram wearing your shirt, saying this is the best shirt I've ever worn. That's so almost a celebrity endorsement. Now at the same time. They have connections and, and stuff. So it's kind of like an accelerator, but it's like a really fast one. It's like a part I was talking more about the you're starting a business you're starting. And you've got the first hurdle out of the way where there's something there, but you just can't push it and hit a wall. Yeah, and you don't know exactly what to do, or you don't have the funds to make it bigger. So you go to them, and then if same has enough potential for them, then they'll invest back it take equity, maybe give you money and help grow that idea if they see the potential there. So with that being said, the question I see all over the internet, is whether or not it's worth it. Whether or not you should is an accelerator that costs money and accept the investment. Yeah, well, that that there's a big question. Are they allowed to charge money at all? Or do they have to give you money to be an accelerator? That's that's an open question. I don't really have a strong opinion on that. I think if they provide you the value, and it makes your company larger, and they are giving you access to something like if you are a really good designer builder of startups, but you don't have millions of dollars to invest in other people. You might set up a business that they pay you but I give you all this expertise. Is that an accelerator? Maybe not maybe that needs a different word. But those exists just consulting. Yeah, maybe that's just consulting. But you need to find a better name because there's a million consultants out there. But if you're saying, right, but I get that, so people call themselves accelerators, you see them that, hey, I will charge you X dollars. And I will give put you in a pipeline that's going to rev you up and accelerate you, that's where they're going. I don't know if I would call that an accelerator, I would call it probably something else. But I do think those are helpful. Then the traditional accelerator there. TechStars is the other really big one Y Combinator already mentioned, there used to be a lot more locally here in Raleigh, there used to be one called, it was originally called the triangle startup factory. And then they grew, and it became startup factory. And it was kind of the engine that really drove a lot of entrepreneurship here. And what happened to them was, they made all these bets, and they gave all this money. And as far as I can tell, none of them took off to the point where they were able to keep afloat. So they kind of buckled and it really helped, accelerate, didn't perform. They did well, like there's seven of them that are still around. And there's one it's called filter easy, which is a really great company that puts air filters on like a schedule, so they ship them to you. And so you don't have to worry about them, oh, you need a new air filter. It's a great idea. And they are a successful company. But there's no Airbnbs that have come out of it. Right, there's no unicorns that have come out of it. And I think that's what they require. Like if that company, I don't know what filter user makes. But you know, they make $10 million a year, that's great. But that's not what they're looking for. They're looking for that 1,000x return right to keep because they're investing all this money. So that so a lot of these have failed over the years. They're the big boys are still there. And so the question is, are they worth doing? And I think, in my opinion, if you get into one of the big boys 1,000% absolutely worth it. That's like again being like on Shark Tank, because they're going to give you access to markets that you could never dream up by yourself. So even just getting in is going to benefit you in Yes, getting in is going to help you does that mean Oh, Y Combinator companies succeed? Absolutely not. But their success rate and their track record? is absolutely putting the thumb on the scale. Right, you if you did go to Y Combinator versus you didn't, huge difference. And I think that that's important. I think that that's worth it. But the question when it comes to the smaller ones, maybe a local one, or one that's doing it differently by charging money is who's behind it? Are they really because? Or do they have track records? I've seen some I'm not going to mention names here because I don't want to get anybody in trouble. But it seems like this can be a an area in which there might be a high potential for kind of getting scammed out of your idea. Yeah, getting the benefit of, you know, either the investment or the equity. I don't know if it's necessarily scammy. Potentially, I think it's just there's a high potential that someone who says they can do something that they can't, okay, so you're overpaying and being under delivered what yeah, you're paying for this access. And the maybe the guys are really good salesman, and make it sounds like he's gonna change your world, but he got his money, and he didn't take equity. So your success doesn't matter to him. Now, that's a very cynical way. very cynical way of looking at it. Those exists, though. And I just want to make sure that if you're thinking of doing one of these, that you're going to do your homework, I was gonna say it's just good to keep in mind, like just kind of protect yourself a little bit and do some research. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not getting no names here. But I've seen some that say, Hey, we have helped 500 startups. And we have been around for 10 years, and we have been helping these people. But then you look at their website, and they don't have a single example. Like they'll have quotes and stuff. You know, just like testimonials by they'll tell you they have a proven track record. Yeah, but where's it but they don't tell you anything trackers. And you still can't tell if you prop 500 startups, then you shouldn't have it site 10 At least that are really successful doing well, maybe not unicorns, but doing well. Why are where are they? What What are they doing? If you have been doing this a long time, you should have a track record, you should have Vizion just testimonials, you should have proof. Wherever he knows you can buy testimonials. That's not really That's right. But I just want to make sure that if you're going to go that route, that you're being smart, don't just jump on the bandwagon and get excited because someone says you can be my accelerator and give away equity and all of that stuff. Make sure that they know what they're doing. Again, the big boys have proven themselves many times over. Yeah, a lot of these smaller ones that claim to be accelerators too. I mean, usually, if they're offering you something that you think is maybe like wow, I didn't expect that. That seems like a lot. That's That sounds great. Yeah. Take a step back, it's usually going to be more for them than for you. You know what I mean? That your, your instincts have to kick in at a point and be like, Is this too good to be? Does this seem like I only pay this much? And then I'm guaranteed to get like $100,000 minimum investment? Pass this? And here's what I mean, the old adage, is it too good to be true? Whenever I see one of those websites, and I click on so many things, because I'm just innately curious, especially in this world, whenever they have to say, I know it sounds too good to be true, you should immediately take a step back. Yes. Because if, if it doesn't pass the smell test, right? It should, it should make sense. I'm gonna give you this, you're gonna give me that. And we're gonna, we're gonna do business together. This is a business transaction. There. If it sounds high minded, oh, just do these three weird things, and you will be the next airbeam Do secrets that all successful startups do that nobody knows, dude. And what's funny is you'll see those. And they're so generic that of course, they did that. Wake up early. take vitamin. Yeah. Wake up early sighs call your clients. Make sure you follow up. Dude. Okay, great. That's not okay. I just, I just want to make sure that anybody thinking about those things about them with their eyes open don't get stuck in. Some of them are celebrities behind them. Some of them have good names, just just do your research. Yeah, I mean, they are great. A lot of great, some are not. That's can they get? Do they have proof? If they don't have proof? Is that because they're brand new? Because a brand new one, they should offer you something right, some sort of discount, because they're trying to prove a track record. Yeah, but at some point, if I've heard 500 600 800 startups, and you don't have a single link to one of them, the ones that are good, and the ones that are helpful, you're probably going to hear about him from other business owners, and not just through some headers. So I got a question that was asked on Reddit, by I'm gonna mispronounce it low era Flores. Oh, that's all it's just, it's a name. And that's why I want to make sure I I don't butcher it too bad. The question was, do what is advice for a new grad? We are a group of recent graduates who have just started working on their startup, what advice would you give us as new entrepreneurs? We are currently in the stages of designing developing our MVP, and are currently funding our project out of our own pocket. That was the question. So before I say my answer, what would be your answer for new grads with nothing to lose other than the little bit of money that they probably have saved up? I would say in a scenario where everybody's invested in it, go full force, work as hard as you can try to network with. I would say either business owners or people in the same industry that you can connect with in any way, and try to learn as much as possible from people who have actually already built a business. Being that you're new grads, you might have the tech stuff nailed down, you might have the information you need, you've learned about marketing, but until you actually get advice from someone who's done it successfully in the real world, you still have stuff to learn. So I would say reach out, try to learn more from actual business owners, try to network with them as much as possible, and probably hope for the best. But don't expect success right away. I know that sounds like a bad thing. But I mean, you're gonna learn from anything you do. From there on out, you're going to learn and you can always just do it again, like you're young enough to where it's not going to be a devastation if it doesn't work out. But you're also young enough to where you have the time energy to put in to make it go as far as possible. So mine would build upon that, that would that would mind would build upon that my advice in which I said on Reddit, but I'm going to add to it based on what you just said, My first one was to go local. In most cities that are around the at least in the US, most medium plus sized cities have some sort of entrepreneurship scene. Join it make friends. Most larger cities have some sort of scene, meetup, groups, whatever, make friends, that would be the first one. The other one which was specific to them was to choose a leader. I have seen in and working with startups, a group of friends say four or five, six friends even we'll get together to make this company and no one feels comfortable taking that leadership role. And so now you're doing everything by committee, which makes everything go slowly, which makes everything great point. Really tough to do. And then kind of touches back to the conversation we had on the previous podcast about the uncomfortable conversation in contracts. Yeah, yeah, you're right, because now you should have a contract within yourself, that's for sure. But I think every every company needs a CEO needs the founder needs, you're gonna have a bunch of co founders. But someone's got to take charge someone when what we were saying in my business group the other day was one of the guys has a company that they have two 50% owners, and generally speaking, one differs to the other. So there was really no owner. They're the one well, they the problem is the one that differs, still thinks that they're equal. One is basically in charge. And it's understood by everybody in the company that they're basically in charge. Yeah, but the other one doesn't see it that way. And I my, the fear there is, if that person who differs, decides this is a hill I'm gonna die on. And so does the guy who's usually the leader, and says, This is a hill I'm gonna die on. You have no leadership really there, right? You both own the same amount, you're both in charge. That becomes a really ugly situation. Even if you're both 50%. odors, there has to be an agreement of Okay, final decision. So get final no get final decision. Who gets the final one? Yeah, so choose a leader. The other one is, again, for new startups, read, listen to podcasts, educate yourself. And I think this ties into kind of what you were saying. And what I wanted to add, is go at this with humility. I think one of the biggest problems a lot of these new entrepreneurs have is they think they're all that, right. They think, oh, I'm a college grad. I know X, Y, and Z. I know this industry, like a bag in my hand, whatever. That No, you don't. You might have a brilliant programmer who knows all the latest in techniques, different languages, you might be an extraordinarily gifted designer, or animator, or, you know, 3d, I guess you could say, artists at this point. And you might have all those things going for you. And you're coming from college where you had literally no constraints holding you back from that creativity. But then that might not always translate super well in the business world. So yeah. No matter how good you are there in college, you're gonna have to step back and be like, Well, I still don't know how to make this an actual business. So let's learn and if you think you do when you're 21, odds are you still don't like even if you think you're the world's greatest coder, you're not most likely, right? You're you might be the think you're the best designer in the world have the humility to think maybe you're not, because you're going to go, you're going to get a lot further that way. Right? Then they go in and walk into the room saying this is my room, rather than going in and saying I'd like to learn something. So Humility is a big one. And then the last bit I said was, be patient. When you're young, especially, you're you have a tendency to go Go, go, go go and I want to, and that's wonderful. That's a great thing. And work hard. That's not saying don't work hard, but don't be in a hurry. Companies take time. I see all over the place in in Reddit and other forums and such that I need to make $10,000 next month. Yeah, what you're seeing is a much more eloquent way of me saying, you're probably not going to get there right away. But don't be discouraged, please. So you're not going to get there eventually take your time. And it can be great. Your first year is going to suck. That's true for every business owner, just about unless you start with a big pile of money or something. But the first year no one cares about you. And that's really hard to get over a lot of places don't ever make it past so be patient. And that stage of the overnight success 10 years in the making. History history. Yeah, I could go on about that forever, but so I've been a nerd for a very long time, which isn't a surprise to anyone who knows me. But so I started this a critical role. And so I just bought all of the d&d books. And I have I actually have one in my office because when I take breaks, I read it because I'm, I'm not even playing the game. But what's the difference? But the reason why I haven't played in 20 plus years is because to find a dungeon master and other people who want to play, you have to go to like the comic stores and meet a bunch of strangers and it's uncomfortable. It's just not my my stick. But nowadays because of zoom and all that, that's all changed. You can hire a professional dm digimaster The guy leading the game, which is gonna make or break the whole thing. You can hire him for like 15 bucks. I'm wrapping my head around professional. Don't Master. Yeah, you're paying to do to just come up with ideas of, well, he's probably gonna be my story. He's gonna buy a story, right, a well known story. And he's gonna flesh it out right? On fiber in like 25 minutes with a really cool picture from Elden ring that I'll just put some bold text on saying professional DM. And I'll just make up stories for people for five bucks an hour. Oh, you pay him 15 bucks for a four hour. Six slots. They're sick. You couldn't do that if your life depended on it. You're not creative enough. The CF six slots, you're telling me that I'm the creative director of the company? I can control stuff I can make. No I don't you do not have the passion to nerd out. You are too cool. Or you think you're too cool. Oh, no, too, right? I am. Do bust out so no, we agree. We'll we'll agree to agree. Uh huh. Yeah. So, babies professional dungeon, you pay these guys. I mean, they've been dungeon mastering for 20 years. And that means they're really good at improv. I mean, if you're all if you're really getting down to it, the skill set is improv. I could smell the comic bookstore coming off this story. That's awesome, dude. So not what's gonna kill you is so I put the offer out to our employees. And I got some nerds joining me man. We're gonna do it. We're gonna nerd out. I got the books. I'm learning it. So yeah, I saw that, but I'm not gonna make fun of them. Oh, yeah, you go, that's fine. That's fine. You know, I probably eventually just goof around on him. But so let me ask you a question. Cuz I'd much about Dungeons and Dragons and show obviously, I'm making fun of you just for the fun of making fun of you, of course, really. Pooh poohing on it. Because I don't know enough about it to. I do remember all the different dice. And then you can buy the little like, Was it like pewter characters and paint them? You're selling miniatures? You would create your own little worlds and adventures? Yep. And then the role playing was basically like you said, you just kind of coming up with a storyline as you go the dungeon masters kind of guiding you through? Do they still do any of that in a physical form? Or is it still like if you're joining these groups over zoom? Are you still like rolling the dice and using you're still roll dice? You still roll dice? Generally the figures are now on a computer screen. Yeah. And they're CG show you like a hex and they'll put in representations. Okay, the ogre is here. And you guys are here. Where are you going to move and it's done. Digitally now. You still can go to the comic book store and bust out the miniatures. And there are some games were totally off in the weeds now. But there are some games like Warhammer which I've never really played. That's is literally about the miniatures, and there are people who will paint them for hundreds of hours and build these armies of these pewter figures. That's a different thing that d&d has some but they're mainly are just to show you where are you at? It's not so games like Magic, the Gathering and stuff like that. Are those kind of like derivatives of a d&d type game? No, those are, those are totally different. Cuz there's, I mean, they're fantasy, right? But they are there. They're actually a board game, for all intents purposes, right? If you've got a card, and that card allows you to do X, Y, or Z. It's not I'm taking the role of this person, and I'm going to play this character. You're literally just playing a very complicated board game. Right? Okay. No different than monopoly. Just the rules of stuff are completely different. But you're sitting down to play a game. I'm fighting one other guy with my deck of cards. I mean, Pokemon, all those are all the same card games. Yeah. See, I wouldn't from my perspective, like if someone's had Dungeons and Dragons Magic, the Gathering a bit again, same thing. They are the same kind of, yep. They attract the same people, but a lot of people are into them. You'll get more artsy people in d&d, and you'll get more status Titian nerds in magic, because that's balancing this and you know what I'm saying you're, you're, you're calculating stuff. I mean, it's a bunch of stats and rules. And as opposed to you can really just make up a story and go and never fight anybody and just kind of West troll has a mechanical arm like the Winter Soldier On The Scene any other trolls before because Merlin is an engineer. That's right. That's right. So just to go back to prove what I was saying before the Parks and Rec game that oh, we're going back to character Ben Wyatt created was called the cones of done Shire. Nice. All right, well done. Good job. All right, on that note, we're out like the Microsoft Zune. Oh, and your jokes are old and crusty. Alright. Thank you so much, everyone who's stuck with us through this rambling thing. Hopefully you learned something. Hopefully some part of this was useful. If not let us know. And we'll we'll never bring up d&d again. You can email us at Hello at the big big so dotnet and you can tell us how good or bad this episode was. Alright. Thank you so much. We will talk to you next. See you guys