Exploration Is Part of Growing | Episode 30

In this episode, Gary and David talk about exploratory: why we offer them and what kind of value they offer you. Following that is the discussion of Elon Musk "buying" Twitter and something Gary keeps in his back pocket as a sort of "bragging right."

Enjoy!

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David Baxter - CEO of Big Pixel

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The Podcast

David Baxter has been designing, building, and advising startups and businesses for over ten years. His passion, knowledge, and brutal honesty have helped dozens of companies get their start.

In Biz/Dev, David and award-winning Creative Director Gary Voigt talk about current events and how they affect the world of startups, entrepreneurship, software development, and culture.

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Transcript

David: 0:00

mullets, why are they back?

Unknown: 0:02

That is a good question. And

David: 0:13

everyone, welcome to the biz dev Podcast, the podcast about developing your business. I'm David Baxter joined as usual by Gary Voight. How's it going, Mr. Gary?

Unknown: 0:23

Going? Well, how you doing?

David: 0:25

I am good, man. I cannot complain. The big news this week was Elon, which is often in the news, but now he wants to buy

Gary: 0:33

Twitter. If he's not in the news, he just does something to get into to

David: 0:37

get into the Do you think that this is a serious offer?

Unknown: 0:44

No, absolutely not.

David: 0:45

So you don't because he he doesn't have funding secured. He'd said that in his TED Talk, which is strange that he just did a TED talk. But he he doesn't have funding secured. He's like, I could buy it all by myself. But he wants to use funding. Okay, fine. I mean, that would be a considerable portion of it. I mean, He's the richest man on the planet, estimated right now at 260 billion, which is so mind blowing. But even if it's something worth $46 billion, this would be like, 20% of his entire wealth. That is not insignificant.

Gary: 1:20

No, it's not. But I mean, do you really think that he has an intention or purpose for this other than, you know, I mean, there's tons of rumors and jokes flying around online about why he did this, or whatever. There's also a bunch of people that are kind of mad, like, I guess a lot of the shareholders are a little angry with them, because there's little mention of buying after he already bought the amount of shares kind of drove the price down, and then drove it back up after he mentioned it. And then now he's on or off the board and just kind of messing with their stock prices, as he has

David: 1:55

turned it into a meme stock, which is what he's does. I mean, I could see. Yeah, I think one of the things that people don't give him enough credit for the dude is brilliant. I don't care who, if you like him or hate him, the dude is brilliant. And he has changed our world not single handedly, I got into an argue with my friend the other day, about how Elon gets credit for SpaceX and Tesla, when he shouldn't. Okay, I'm not going to argue that what I can say with definitive proof, if it wasn't for him, we wouldn't be talking about either of those companies.

Gary: 2:28

True. And yeah, he has grand plans that are set in the right direction to kind of help humanity, which I'm all about.

David: 2:38

But he's changed and he has changed in his company, he did not start Tesla, that's important to know, he changed electric cars and made them cool. And that's purely based on one they executed, which is not him. He's not a bad guy, even though I believe he's part of it. But he's the best height man on the planet. That I think is without question. True. I think it's two superpowers, hype man, and he is ability to, to either find or hire, or cajole, or something, the best talent in the world, because

Unknown: 3:10

I want you to agree with him too.

David: 3:13

Well, but how do you explain SpaceX otherwise, right, because SpaceX basically did what NASA tried to do for 30 years. They did it in five.

Gary: 3:21

Yeah, that's because it seems like SpaceX being the private company and the funding that they had. They were able to kind of cross some lines that maybe NASA and government funding couldn't. So they were able to be amazing. Pretty good. Anyway, yeah. More r&d engineers from different places. And, you know,

David: 3:39

pulling it back to Twitter. The cynical part of me says he bought 9% of the company, it jumps up 27% He makes this offer and says a if you don't take it, I'm out. So it goes up again. Now it's up 30% of where ever he bought it. They say no, he sells at that rate, though. He just made billions of dollars. That's the cynical side of me. The other side of me says he really does believe in this free speech stuff. And he's going to change something. But I don't I don't really understand that. I mean, there's lots of there's,

Gary: 4:16

that seems like a little bit of a mask or a cover. I mean, I he doesn't like it when people make fun of him on Twitter. That's, that's

David: 4:25

not gonna change his because he owns it. If anything, I'll make it worse.

Gary: 4:27

No, but I think him saying he's gonna own it forever. Is that little bit of a bully coming out that he wishes he was because I mean, but But behind the billionaire guy. There's probably a little bit of an insecurity

David: 4:42

though, for sure. So for sure. I don't know. I don't know. There are the Free Speech platforms parlor and gab and blah, blah, blah, that that's their shtick, and they're not taking over the world. So I don't that's not a look. And there are some voices that are are banned or push that to the side or whatever. Okay, maybe they need to be pushed to the side. Maybe they don't I'm not really here to argue that. But again, that's not a lot of people.

Gary: 5:11

Twitter is a public company, but I mean, they're not owned by the government. So

David: 5:16

yeah, technically free speech has nothing to do with it just be like,

Gary: 5:18

No, we don't like what you're saying, like, not allowing hate speech and stuff like that. That's their prerogative. Sure. Other apps that do allow that stuff. They watch the little windfall of, you know, everybody jumping ship from that. So

David: 5:34

well, you had to those parlour is the classic example. You can only go so far. If you just say all all bets are off, say whatever you want,

Gary: 5:43

then it turns into 4chan?

David: 5:45

Well, Apple is going to say, No, that's offensive, and you're not allowed on our platform. And that's the end of your app. Yeah, period, you're done. And so you can say what you want, but there still has to be guardrails, because Apple and and Google are gonna say they have their own guardrails. If you cross those lines, you're done.

Gary: 6:02

Again, you have the freedom to say what you want, but you're also going to face the consequences for it. Free speech doesn't mean that you're, you know, not going to be held accountable for your actions or your words, just means you won't be put in jail for you know, saying something about the government. That's basically

David: 6:19

that I think a lot of people really misunderstand that. It's yeah, I have the right to say whatever I want. But I also have the right to have the consequences from those actions.

Gary: 6:29

Exactly. People, less educated people believe that the word freedom means they can do whatever they want, without consequences no matter what. Because, according to them, it's in the Constitution they never read. So

David: 6:42

fair. Yeah, I mean, not to get political. I really want to stay away from that. I think. I think what's interesting is Elon, Elon, smarter than most people, I think, that's for sure. And he is often working at a level that we don't understand whether it's smart or not, I don't know. But

Gary: 7:02

this kind of play with the stock prices and, you know, Twitter, whatever. This could be just something he does for his own personal entertainment because he's bored. He has that much money or and he's like, okay, Tesla's going. Okay. supply chain issues, but nothing I could do about that. SpaceX is going okay, successful launches. You know, engines returning being reused. That's fine. They're building the DeMars mission stuff out. That's good. So what do I do now? Let's mess with Twitter for a week or two.

David: 7:32

Yeah. So crazy. Anyway, I just I find that to be interesting. I think that will be a topic for a while not necessarily for us, but I think it's gonna be in the news for a good while.

Gary: 7:44

We should call it like Elon watch. Where does he turn into a global hero? Or does he turn into Dr. Evil? How will the money affect him?

David: 7:52

One of the things you said that I thought struck really true to me was you were getting was it mastermind vibes he wants to take over the world kind of vibes from this. Yeah, the way he was treating this is, you know, no one's gonna tell me what not to so I'm gonna just by you up. Reminds me like, we were off before the show started. We were talking about comics and stuff like that. Have you ever noticed that all the comics were Batman's involved? You know, oh, how did you save my house? I bought the bank. Like, they make it seem like just I just wrote a check and bought a bank that that's not how any of that works. And I think I think Elon thinks that's how it works. It's what he's, that's right. A Chip said, Dude,

Gary: 8:36

I think you figured it out. Is he Batman? Elon? No, he just wants to be the Bruce Wayne part.

David: 8:42

He wants to be Bruce oro.

Unknown: 8:43

I would say he wants to be on a Gotham level.

David: 8:46

He wants to be Tony Stark.

Gary: 8:48

That is definitely. Okay. So maybe he's struggling with the DC versus Marvel. And he doesn't know if he's Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne. So he's Bruce dark. Bruce. Scaroni. Wayne sounds like a singer in Vegas. Welcome, welcome.

David: 9:07

We're gonna That's Tony Wade is you're playing some good old fashioned bluegrass. Every night is weak. If you're weak. That's funny Tony Wayne. Yeah, that does not sound cool at all. Bruce Stark, yeah, it's interesting. I do think in his mind and I his ego is enormous. For sure. He I think he probably thinks he's the modern day, Tony Stark. And he just thinks his power. And to be fair, it says a lot that you have enough money that you can buy a company like that by literally writing a check if you want to. That's great. So we have been doing a series on how to build a startup in a more efficient way.

Unknown: 10:00

Yeah, cost effective and practical

David: 10:03

ways of validating before you drop the money to build an app. Ways to find the right Dev. That's what we talked about last week. And we're going to continue that a little bit this week. How do you know you're finding the right dev shop and the big takeaway from last week was transparency. And this will continue that a little bit what we're going to talk about what's called what we call in big pixel an exploratory. Other companies call it discoveries. There is there's there's multiple names for it, we'll explain how we do it, and, and why we think is the right way to go in terms of making sure we're building what you want us to build for the right price.

Gary: 10:37

So in a sense, as you're going through the process of validating your idea, this is kind of our way of validating our value to you as a dev shop.

David: 10:48

That's fair. That's fair. So I'll go in a history lesson to explain how we got to the concept of an exploratory because everyone, every client, who calls us wants to know how much is this going to cost? And I don't know the answer to that. And when I worked at other places, and talked to other devs, shops, stuff like that, I found, to me, it was a troubling pattern, that some dev shops, it wasn't actually uncommon. It happens a lot. After talking to you for an hour getting a little bit about your app, you would, they would give you a quote. And they would say, oh, because most shops are time materials. And so they would say, Oh, we think we can do that in 300 hours. And whatever their bill rate is, now you have your cost. And so let's just assume that you hire this person, so they use those 300 hours. And once you know what they didn't finish, and now they not there, they're trying to be a good Now there's some dev shops that are discuss balls, I'm not going to assume that I'm gonna assume they had good intentions, they tried to finish in 300 hours. And as soon as they could they let you know that they were gonna go over. But the problem is you didn't have usually they'll have a range, maybe plus minus 20%. But sometimes it goes beyond that. And that since your time materials, you're just stuck paying it. That's the agreement. And so they know this, the less savory is that the right word, not salty, what am I saying? I'm thinking of like food for some reason, the less what's the word I'm looking for?

Gary: 12:25

profit than product a little less ethical,

David: 12:28

you the less ethical ones, that's, that's fair, you'll see them and they know this, they know that you're looking for a lower rate, or you're shopping around, they know that. And they know that they're gonna you're gonna use cost as a big factor of that. So if another guy is quoting you, 50,000 and different guys cost you 80,000. And this guy says eat 40 doesn't know that. But he's got a good idea. Because he's been doing this a

Unknown: 12:56

while, he probably knows Bactrim the range.

David: 12:59

Yeah, he knows probably what people are asking for. So he knows that if I come in at 40, I'm going to look really good, even though he Doran hooks into you. Because switching at that point is a beating, right? He's, he's in it, he's already worked it done $30,000 worth of work for you. And you're not going to just switch because he needs some more money. He knows this. Or she knows this is not not necessarily a guy. And that's that, to me is really scuzzy and unethical, and it happens too much. So what a good so let me shift gears. So what should you do? So to me, I don't believe in any way shape or form a dev can give a good estimate in an hour. It's just not possible. I don't believe it. And I will, I will go to the mat on that one every time. So how do you solve it? Well, you do what's called an exploratory in our case, it gives discoveries another common word for it, where you are taking the time to learn what the person wants. You are asking millions of questions, you're digging down deep. You're now in some cases, and I explain how we do it differently than other places. A common thing is that you'll bring in the spec or the idea that you have that you've written down. And you they will go through it, they will ask questions, and they will then give you a proposal based off of that knowledge. And that will be a much more accurate spec. That is what a discovery should start with. Now some places charge some places don't. I will tell you, in our case, we charge if you decide not to use us, if you decide you want to work with us in any capacity, it's free. But if you decide to take the knowledge that the exploratory gave you and go and give it another Dev, then we should get paid for that time. That's kind of

Gary: 14:52

exactly like what we were talking about last week with the design. Yeah.

David: 14:57

So I mean, where our expertise is, On display on that exploratory so we should get paid for it if you decide not to use us so. So that is how most places do. So here's how we do it differently. So I asked the people who are involved and I say anyone the people who should be at the exploratory is anyone who is involved at the napkin stage is what I call it when you guys are sitting at the bar, you're sitting around your kitchen table, and you're all excited about it. You and your buddies, or, you know, a couple people. Yeah, Oh, nope, you're with that, right? That's the napkin stage. Everyone's excited. The passion is all written down somewhere on a scrap of paper. Those are the people I want. And that exploratory because I want that passion. I want those people who are excited about the idea. The thing I indifferent about is I don't want to see your spec. I don't want you to bring it mica bring it I don't care. But I'm not going to read it. Because that sounds counterintuitive.

Gary: 15:53

Well, it sounds counterintuitive, just before you explain why. But so remember to at this point, you've already kind of validated your idea. And you've gotten to the point where it's something is kind of working to where you need it to work better for you. So bringing all that information in and then just expecting to build on it like Legos. Like, there's there's a gray area in there. And I think that's what you're getting into

David: 16:19

what is true. And no, I'm coming from because most of the people, the vast majority of people don't do this process that we're talking about. Right? Most people are coming to us with just an idea. They want to they have some money, and they want to build an app and they haven't done any of this validation stuff. That's generally where exploratory is coming from. So that's where most of my experiences, if you've already done our steps, and you haven't been using us, right? Somehow you've got to split from your dev, whatever, that's the scenario. Because we would have done the exploratory.

Unknown: 16:48

Okay, so they would be ahead of the game. Anyway.

David: 16:51

Depending on how you come to us, if you're if you're coming to us, and you want to follow this plan that we've been laying out, we would do the exploratory before we did any of the traffic before we did any of the SEO with word did any of that. It's still early, early, early on. But again, most people don't ever follow that plan. So I'm just speaking generically. So what we do differently, so I don't want to see your spec, right. That's what's strange. And people ask me that all the time. Here's why. The simple reason is, is I don't want you to be hamstrung by your own thoughts. Because you are not a software designer, most likely you wouldn't be talking to me. And you don't know what software can and cannot do. And so when you wrote that spec, you didn't know you still don't know, it's my job to show you what is possible with tech. What is possible, what's not possible. And then let's let your imagination run wild. And that's the most exciting part of every exploratory is watching the startups. The founders just light up because now they start to see the real potential, what tech can do what it can't do. And really start today in their mind. Obviously, I'm we're not working at that point. But in their mind, they're seeing their idea come to life this

Unknown: 18:02

part. Yeah. What if it could do this? What if it because

David: 18:04

every every startup comes to me, every founder comes to me and the non technical ones, comes to me kind of thinking they know something. But they have all these questions that they need to ask someone like me, right? Sometimes they ask these questions to their buddies, and they I don't know. But they want answers. And so now they're finally talking to someone that can answer these questions. And boy, howdy is excited. And so I don't want I want you to explain to me, I'm an auditory learner. So this all works very well for me, I want you to explain to me what the app does and how it should work. And then I will overlay my experience on top of that. And by the end of it, we'll whiteboard it up, and we draw and we have fun. But at the end of it, we will give you a proposal. That is a bulleted point, this is what we are doing. And this is what it costs. And that's the goal of an exploratory and that step is critical. I don't believe you could ever skip that step. That seems bored.

Gary: 19:02

Now, I think, maybe not from the onset, the exploratory version that we were talking about when people come in without validating and doing all those steps. But let's say they've listened to the podcast, and then they come through, they've got their idea validated. They've got a, you know, small website up or whatever, they've done their marketing. And they're, they're connecting the points. And now they're saying, okay, so we need to take this from, it's working, but I need more automation, can we can we take take it from the website to an app that's going to do more for me, they might not need an exploratory that you were just talking about, but I think they would probably still need some expertise.

David: 19:44

So while you're you're describing a very unusual situation, what you're basically say someone built them those things, and they no longer work with that someone. That's a very different thing. Come You know what I'm saying?

Unknown: 19:59

Okay, so You should,

David: 20:01

what we want to make sure of and I've said this for years and years and years, I do not believe in throwing away code. So, as such, I do not like building code that I know is going to be thrown out. Because it was built to be weak from the beginning, the way I've always described it is, let's say you're wildly successful. So over five years, you easily could spend 5,000,005, a million dollars on your startup development, because your startup is doing well, right? This is exciting stuff. And you're constantly investing in,

Gary: 20:37

you're making money doing investing in the correct

David: 20:41

mud, we should not be throwing out what we are building. Now, because you become successful. Every step of the way, once we get to the point of the beautiful website that we've described, as part two of this, after you validate your idea, that beautiful website should not be different than the beautiful app that we made, that design should be reused. And that design should expand Of course. And then just like my version, one of the code that I'm building for you should be the same foundation of version eight. Now, obviously, if you have a million users, we have changed things and updated things and added things and, and all sorts of goodies to prepare for that scale. But we aren't throwing code out. So my point is bringing that up is ideally the exploratory is happening before you are doing the code. So if you can do the traffic, and you could do the SEO stuff with purely a marketing company, they can build you a nice enough throwaway landing page. No problem. But once you to the point where you want the pretty but relatively useless website, that's to validate your idea, again, you should be working with your long term tech team, in my opinion. So the exploratory would be really good here. Really, really, really good there. You could start all the way the very, very, very beginning. And the tech team is helping you the traffic helping you with the SEO, etc. But if you wanted to do those on your own, or with you know, as your buddy who's a marketing guy, fine. But at that step, that third step where you're building, you're pretty, but manual website, you should already be engaged with your tech team. So the exploratory should be either at the very, very beginning or in between steps two and three.

Gary: 22:33

Okay. Yeah. I just wanted to clarify that for anybody listening, since we did have these kind of in parts, and we're moving along chronologically.

David: 22:40

What Yeah, it's funny, cuz we're doing these, we don't have some grand plan. We're chatting and coming up with the series, not on the fly, but close to it. And our own order is getting weird. Right? It's like, because when we did the first one, Gary, and I had this idea to, to chat about validating your idea with traffic. And so we did a podcast about it. And then then we're thinking about it, we're noodling is more, you know, you know, it'd be also great. If we did an SEO, what, okay, cool. It was just add that in, and then we do. And so we've ended up building these things in the wrong order. Someday, we need to write this down the correct order in which to do this process. We'll do that at some. So

Gary: 23:26

we're kind of in this stage of validating our ideas about

David: 23:30

we're validating our idea about the idea. But that sounds worse than it is we we live this every day. Now. I will say the the validating your traffic and all that that is new, very, very few people do that. I was reading, and it struck me that man, everybody should be doing that. But I will say I was talking to a potential client the other day, and I mentioned it, hey, what about this process? was like, No, I want this app. I know. Okay, I was surprised, because I'm like, I'm trying to save you money, dude. I'm trying to give you another path. And you're you're just dead set and spending money on an idea, you have no idea if it's gonna work on your call, dude. But I was very surprised by his his reaction to that.

Gary: 24:22

Um, I just wanted to throw pepper in a little bit. When you were talking about you don't like to throw away code and you want to build off the foundation from the beginning and just scale it upward. You started that from the landing page of the pretty website. From a design perspective, that's also the same time that you should start when you're doing your branding, if you're we talked about in the past, getting like a cheap logo from Fiverr. And then once you're kind of developing and making money, you might want to update that and start to build out your brand to go along with the product. So any branding that you have done up to that point with a pretty website. is probably the basis and the foundation of where you're going to build off from that design as well, because you mentioned taking that pretty website and expanding on it instead of redoing it. Same idea goes for the branding. So you would take the design style and the branding that you've, you know, already created, and build that pretty website for, as long as you know, it's still effective, and it works for you. And then just expand upon that and brands and branding, the visual language that can evolve as you grow. But it's not a good idea to take it from that point and just completely change it because you don't, at that point have an established audience or, you know, you don't have enough people paying attention to where they're going to know it's the same company just a new look, it's gonna be like, what, what, what happened? What did they do?

David: 25:50

So you're saying, just to be clear, you're saying I'm doing traffic validation? SEO goodies, I can use all the fake throw away? Branding?

Gary: 25:59

I wouldn't say fake throw away. Well, it's

David: 26:02

your Fiverr Fiverr.

Gary: 26:04

Right. That's where you're crafting and concepting you know, what will eventually become your brand?

David: 26:10

The time you should invest in the logo and the branding, etc. is before the pretty website? Because yeah, that pretty Yeah, so expect to spend some good design money,

Gary: 26:19

you're putting on your face to go out, you're presenting yourself to the world. So you want to make sure that you're putting your best foot forward when it comes to visual your brand.

David: 26:30

Okay, no, that's good. That's good. That's a good good reminder, because they are two different, but obviously very intertwined processes is totally different skill set. Totally different everything, your design versus your tech, now often to work together, they have to work together. Yeah, they for sure, do it. And I will caution this is totally not my plan. But I will caution a lot of places will go to a design shop to get the design done, and then go to a tech shop to get the tech done. Don't do that. Don't do that. Because I mean, it's fine for logos and your branding stuff, fine, you can use that as a totally separate company. No problem. But when it comes to the UX, and the flow and the design of the app, you got to be married to the tech team, or you're going to it's gonna get bad. Absolutely, that. So if you want to do branding, and identity, and storytelling, and all of that, with a pure marketing or branding company, great, you're gonna spend a lot of money but fine. But once you're to the point of the actual app, let the tech team and their designers lead that. And that's a big part of finding the right dev team as well is you need some team that's got a design skills in house, if they're just if they don't have a designer and you can't meet that designer, then that means they're outsourcing that. And maybe that's worth talking about a little bit more in depth in another episode. But that basically means that design is secondary to them. And they're going to help sources,

Gary: 27:58

he's might have a design and Dev, you know, team under the same umbrella, which that's ideal. But some smaller agencies might have, like you said, They'll contract out to different design agencies and then work as the dev agency. And while that relationship might be okay for, you know, here and there over a period of time, what happens if that little partnership dissolves, or they don't like working with each other anymore, someone's rates got too high, then you end up with maybe a completed design and no one to develop it. Because there's no communication, there's no actual, I guess, relationship between the two, like anybody can design something that looks like an Apple product or an apple, iOS or Facebook, it could look like that for sure. But not everybody could build that.

David: 28:47

So but I want to be cautious because I don't think I am saying, at least from my opinion, is that you have to work with a dev company that's large enough that that their own design staff know, because that might be I mean, there's a lot of them out there. It's not like you were requires a huge dev shop to do that. But to me, I think if you have a good dev team that has a great relationship with the design crew, that can work. That can work. It doesn't have to be internal. I think it's preferred to be internal. That's why we hired you. But I don't think I would necessarily disqualify a dev team because they didn't have a designer on staff, I should be able to meet that guy, because that partnership is vital. But I don't know if just because they're, they're outsourcing it, but they're like, hey, you know, it's just me and my buddy, we'll build you this app, right? We're gonna do a great job. But I don't do design. So I got my other buddy over here, who runs this company. And we do this all the time. I wouldn't have a problem with that. Would you have a problem with that?

Gary: 29:47

I wouldn't have a problem with it. If I can, like see that this is actually a valid thing. The only thing that kind of throws up a red flag for me. If you're going to a dev shop and then they're saying yeah, don't worry Got it. We have a designer. Oh, you have a designer that works for you? Well, no, we work with a designer and we've been working with him for years. Okay, fine. That sounds fine can just show me some of the stuff that you guys have built together. But if it's like, oh, yeah, don't worry, we'll take care of the design. Oh, you have a designer? Well, we don't have a designer, but we work with designers. What do you mean, We contract out designers? That immediately says to me, they're looking for the cheapest designer that can do the work as quick as possible. And they're just going to show you something, you know, like, they'll send you a PDF or a spec and figma or a prototyping figure or whatever. And you can look at it and say, like, yeah, okay, I can see where this is going, this is gonna be great. And then the actual product development comes out, like, oh, well, we can't really do this that same way. So we went this way. And then we went back to the designer, we had to change this, because that technically won't work. And then at the end of it, you have this kind of Franken beast. I don't know, I guess you can say it's more of a collage than a consistent, you know, design.

David: 31:06

Yeah, I will say that I know from experience of doing this for a long time. The best developers. So I have a designer's eye, I was a designer for a while while I started the company, etc, etc. And I took it to believe that everyone could do that. And I have learned the hard way that that is not true. Most developers, when you give them a design will get 80% there on their own. If you want to get to that 95 plus percent rate, that designer has to come back and explain to them where they're off there. It's not because they're incompetent. It's not because they didn't want to, it's because they literally do not see it. It's just not their world. They're not artistic, typically. And I mean, literally artsy stuff like pen and paper and color and things. Their art is in very technical stuff. But they're they don't see that we we've done this. We've tested this with our own guys. Here's a final design. Here's what you built. Tell me the difference.

Gary: 32:07

I don't like a Rorschach test. Sometimes it really is. developers

David: 32:11

don't like they look the same to me. Like, dude, that pictures backwards? It is.

Gary: 32:17

There's an input field. And there's a blue button with white text, but it's fine. It's like, well, it's the wrong font. The spacings all wrong. That's not the right blue. exactly the right blue. Oh, okay. Yeah.

David: 32:29

Okay. And they're happy to fix it. They don't see it, they just cannot see it. And that's fine. That's not their job. And that's important. I had to learn that the hard way. Because I can see it, and it drives me nuts when no one else can. But so don't I'm saying that simply because I don't want you to to make your desert developers do that. That because they can't. And that's okay. But there should be someone that the reason I say they should be internal, ideally is because they can then make sure that Designer comes back and make sure we get to that a good partnership. Yeah.

Gary: 33:05

Or like you said, a solid relationship to where the designer and the developer will work together. So the end product is all like candy and

David: 33:15

looks as grown and flows the wishes.

Gary: 33:18

Yep. Okay, I have a comment my daughter made about a year ago that I keep in my back pocket and I, I don't bring it up often. But it's one of those things where she said it and I was just like, oh, yeah, that's awesome. While she might not think I'm cool, she has admitted that her friends think I'm pretty cool.

David: 33:43

Hey, I will take my version of that, like,

Gary: 33:47

Jordans. Dad's pretty cool. Because like, whenever I would take her to the stuff that she does or whatever, yeah.

David: 33:53

When my son My son is a car nut. And he's always loved the oh, he's gonna get mad at me. It's

Unknown: 34:01

the Dodge. He's editing this so be careful.

David: 34:03

Yeah. Dodge Challenger. Is that right? Darren? It's either the charger the Challenger, he is going to EDL and the same thing. They are not. I believe it's the Hellcat. Whichever one the Hellcat is or the demon. Those are challenges. So when he was a little kid, he wrote on a post it note, it said which is stronger. A Dodge demon or dad, dad. Oh, and I still have that posted note on my my bathroom mirror. So because that was the last time I was cool. And so I took it and I kept it forever.

Gary: 34:39

Well, if you guys want to be cool, send us some questions, email. Hello at the big pixel dotnet or make comments on our YouTube channel or find David on Reddit, usually under the startup threads.

David: 34:49

Alright y'all. Thanks so much for joining us. We will talk to you next week.

Unknown: 34:53

See ya