Synergistic Synergy in a Land of Drones w/ English Sall | Ep. 78

In this episode David and Gary chat with English Sall, CEO and Co Founder of Cymantix talk about looking beyond the complexity horizon and taking things at face value of being simply complex.

Links:

https://www.waldo.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/englishsall/

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David Baxter has been designing, building, and advising startups and businesses for over ten years. His passion, knowledge, and brutal honesty have helped dozens of companies get their start.

In Biz/Dev, David and award-winning Creative Director Gary Voigt talk about current events and how they affect the world of startups, entrepreneurship, software development, and culture.

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Transcript

David: 0:05

Hi, everyone. Welcome to the biz dev Podcast, the podcast about developing your business. I'm David Baxter, your host, and I'm joined today by Gary Voight. I have some trivia for you, listeners out there. Did you know that chat GPT the G stands for Gary, did you know that? That's right? He was a engineer in the in the whole thing. And am I saying that wrong? am I overstating that Gary? engineer might be a stretch. I was the inspiration, inspiration. Yeah, that's the waiting for my text, though. I guess once they get out of data, go public and start making the real money. I think Microsoft is being start to saying anything weird. It's because it's Gary's personality. That's what it is. That's the problem. Yeah, I mean, so many questions. So well, he gets really tired of typing his fingers hurt all the answers. It's not really AI. It's just Gary. Anyway, we are joined by English soul. She is the CEO and co founder of semantics. And we're gonna learn a bit about that in a moment. But first, we're going to talk to about what we always talk about, which is AI, because that's all been talked about. It's the newer what we always talk about, and since you are the true Chad GPT, you know, since I'm an expert, I'm just gonna sure that you guys discuss it a little bit. You're the one who just typed all day do you need to go now, so you can type some more queries that people are asking you. I have robots that do that. Nice. That's the real AI. AI is usually a guy named owl on the back anyway.

Gary: 1:31

You know, it's funny. This topic is so hot right now. So I was given this little bit of speech. That sounds more important than it was I was at NC State last night. And they had an entrepreneurship thing. And I was there, given a little What was the question? The question, I 10 minutes to talk about, what would I change

David: 1:50

in my career looking back, right, because now I'm old. And I love that because that officially means I'm old, because they want to hear what I think of 20 years later, but in the So afterwards, we had little QA, and a guy asked completely out of nowhere, hey, what do I think of Chet GPT? Because I knew I was in tech, it's like, it is just on the minds of everyone. So he just asked, you know, my thoughts. But what you've all heard, here are those thoughts. My thoughts were that in five years, I believe that the internet will be very different than it is today, because of what we're seeing now. I think we're in the very early stage of this, and what we're doing and playing around with now with Bing, and whatever Google comes out with Bard. I doubt it's actually called barred when it's all done. But whatever they come out with, they're gonna answer, right, there's just too much money in this. There's billions of dollars at stake. I mean, the CEO of Microsoft said, if we can steal just a few percent of that search. I'm trying to think the right word. It's not even the revenue. It's just like just the market, like it's being grant grabs, 2% market share, 234 percent market share, that's the word I was looking for. They will gain billions of dollars, that's how much money is at stake. And so Microsoft coming out swinging. And because they're like, We We've invested, we picked a hot horse and open AI. And we're they're coming out swinging, and they're like, we're gonna make Google dance. And we want everyone to know that we made them dance. I think that's the greatest CEO quote, ever. Because it's just so ballsy.

Gary: 3:22

I think I just read that the API's for both chat GPT and open AI were released now. So we're gonna see tons of businesses pop up in the next month and a half, two months that are all AI related.

David: 3:35

What our clients are asking about it, our clients, I've got two clients that have asked me in the last week, how can we use this AI? silliness? I mean, cuz they don't really know what it is. They just know what's hot. And they know it can write cool emails, right? I mean, it's it's nuts.

Gary: 3:49

Well, I guess thing this year. She's a self proclaimed data enthusiast. So I'm wondering how AI and Jaggi Beatty and and stuff like that might filter into her career.

English: 4:01

Well, it's been a hot topic at semantics as well. And it's something that we've been asked about a lot. And I think that there I mean, number one, I think it's a great conversation to have, just because I think it opens up so many avenues of what the future of AI could look like, what the future for us of, of search and information retrieval could look like. You know, I think it within within my company, it's, it's a cool tool. It's a cool feature. It's, it's something that we can plug in to what we're already doing. And I do think that, you know, someone gave me a great metaphor of, of where it is right now. It is akin to, in my mind, kind of like a like self like self driving cars, right? Like we're in this moment where this is really cool. But there's, you know, the kind of fringe cases where it's like, oh, wait We still need to put some, some guards around this, we still need to put some some kind of boxes around what we can and can't do or what is most useful? What is what is most relevant to to the tool itself, right? So you looked at like self driving cars, it's like, wow, everybody wants to do this. And then you see a bunch of recalls, right of like, oh, maybe, maybe we hit the hit the gas on that really quickly. So I think that there's a lot there. And I think there's a lot to be done. I think that more than anything, I'm fascinated by just the conversations going on, right? Like, you see how they banned it from a lot of universities, right? They're like, you can't use Chad GPT. And so, to me, it's sort of like, what should we be doing with it? Versus what can we be doing with it?

Gary: 5:48

The self driving car is a great analogy. I mean, I have not heard that before. But that's really good. And especially just for me, since I'm kind of a visual person. You know, we've all seen the visualization of the car, and then it putting little polygon boxes around people walking by and you kind of have that heads up display of what the AI is trying to do there with the self driving. And you mentioned in putting boxes around what it should and shouldn't do. Yeah, that really, that's a really good visual to put in your head

David: 6:15

when I think it's even more apropos. Because if you go five years ago, I don't know, whenever the self driving car thing exploded. Everyone thought that we were going to be all in our steering wheel list cars within five years. And because they were making such great strides, right, you could, cars were driving themselves around little courses, and they're like, Man, this is going really, really well. And then they realized a few years later, that last 10% of getting that right of working in the snow, and working driving through a neighborhood where kids are playing,

Gary: 6:49

were predictable conditions.

David: 6:52

All of that insanity is really, really, really hard and the consequences of failing, even if you're 99%, right. Like, imagine a world where you have your car you walk out to every morning has no steering wheel, because it just drives itself. But today you live in Utah, like Seiwa are one of our project managers. And it's there's a foot of snow on the ground. And the car just says, No, I'm not driving today. Sorry, I can't do it. Well, then what do you do like a human, like there's an emergency and you need to get out there, we can figure out how to drive in the snow, it might not be a good idea, but we do it all the time. But the car is gonna say sorry, I'm not going to do that. So that last 1%. And it's wrong and it hits the kid is over. Right? It's so now they're saying we might be 10 years if ever now there are cars, if you're in Phoenix, you can get a driverless car to drive around you get a taxi, because Phoenix has perfect weather for this kind of experiment. Now bringing this back to the AI stuff. I think it's the same kind of thing. Part of it is really interesting, because we're seeing things like the AIS, if you read those stories, we've talked about it before. We're beings guys, Sydney just goes nuts and starts professing love to the to the people, you're gonna start seeing less and less of that craziness because they're gonna put more and more guardrails up, right? And so some of that's kind of sad, because the crazy teenager who's been reading fanfiction is going to be locked away. Because that's just weird. But you're going to see that person that that persona, and I shouldn't say person because they're their machines, and they don't have feelings. It's really easy. Like I was telling my son about this. I don't think I've mentioned this before. I was telling him about the big story. And he's like, how do you know it's not alive? And I was like, because it's not because it's just a, it's just a program that's really good at putting words together. That's all it is. And it can seem very smart. But to someone who's not technical, just wait until you've got political issues happening, because AI bot told you this is all fake news, right? I mean, that's coming, that is certainly coming.

Gary: 8:51

That's already happening in certain parts of the world. Yeah,

David: 8:54

I'm sure I'm sure my family is probably part of that world. Anyway. What is interesting to me, though, is when I think it's worth clarifying, when I say that the ground underneath has a shifting, it's important to back up and see what the web is now. Right now you go to the web, and you search for anything. And what happens is you go to Google, because 92% Of all people go to Google, you go there and you type in your sentence. And what Google does is it goes and finds sites that maybe may or may not answer your question. So over the last 1020 years, the way you make money is you find ways to make your website answer question. So Google find you and says, this is the right answer, right. That's how everyone is incentivized use the web, the whole web is built this way. Whether you're a tiny company, or huge one, you build your website so that Google will find you. If you now are going to a chat box to ask a question. And you never have to visit the site that gave you the answer, which is what all the beings and bards and stuff are doing right now. That means my incentive is incentivizing is now no longer there. So now why am I providing that the web just changed dramatically. So that's what I mean when I say the web is changing under our feet. We just don't know what it looks like yet. Because we're gonna put those guardrails up just like you said English. We're gonna put those guardrails, I mean, this, the sterilized version of these is coming out where they're going to be very intelligent and very good at what they do, but they have very strong guardrails, because we don't want them going nuts. But they're going to change, I don't have to go visit that website. So now if I'm a company, and I need someone to know more about my product, this become a lot harder. This gotten a lot harder, or Google opened a million doors that were never people didn't even know existed. And now those doors are gonna start to close. And I'm very curious what that looks like. That's way beyond the conversation of what is AI. But how humans respond. AI is almost a more interesting topic to me. It's totally conjecture, but it's still fairly interesting.

Gary: 10:54

When you said 92% of people use Google? Am I the only one that still asks Jeeves?

David: 11:05

That's as bad as you busting zoom joke. Infoseek is what I still use. You know what's funny, I actually use I switched to mine, I use a thing called Waldo. Right now I'm playing with a thing called Waldo, which has, it uses Google as the search engine. But behind it, you can really tailor your search. I haven't played with it all that much. I really liked the design, because it's super clean. And it gets rid of a lot of the cruft that Google ads, but they have this whole thing where you can drill in deep, it's Waldo dot something, you can search it, but

Gary: 11:38

Well, English, you mentioned your company earlier semantics. And I know it's spelled a little different. It's Cy M and tix. Correct, you give us a little bit of information about yourself your role in the company, what the company does,

English: 11:54

yeah, happy to. So I'm co founder and CEO of the company. And really, I love this conversation about Google and search, because a lot of what we do is, you know, walking next to search in a way, we're really more of an information retrieval company. And we build sense making tools for the intelligence and defense space, mostly right now to support mission operations. And so while you know, just a kind of a metaphor here is that, you know, Google asked Jeeves, all of these, you know, internet search companies. And you know, it's a very transactional interaction, right? You sort of say, Here's my, I want to, I want the address to this restaurant. Here it is, it gives it to you. We're more interested in sort of the complexity of domain specific information. And so what we do is we build visual information retrieval tools, and also information aggregation tools to sort of help people have all the information that they're interested in in one place, and then have the analytics behind that to make meaning out of that information and demonstrate the relationships between and within information.

David: 13:09

What does that mean, practically? I mean, that's sounds really cool. But I have no idea what you just said, Yeah. Pretend I'm really dumb, it's not hard.

English: 13:19

So let me give you an example. We, we work a little bit of a cyber Intel space. And one of the problems that we've seen across the board is a lot of people in that space, a lot of analysts usually have, I don't know, 2530, Google tabs open. There's an overwhelm, people have too many sources of information that they need to triage and assess too quickly, in order to make a decision. And so what we do is we provide tools that allows them to see all of that information in one place. So instead of 45, Google tabs, it's all right there in one user interface. And we're able to demonstrate the relationships based on our sort of back end, contextual analytics. So looking at this document, and relating it to this document, and putting that in a visual search interface.

David: 14:14

That sounds so incredible, that I can't wrap my little brain around it totally. What I'm trying to figure out is how did you come up with this, like, you're the co founder, so you had a partner of some sort? But this is not like, you know what, I want to open a coffee shop. Or I make soap really good, right? Or I want to do a build websites. This is like I'm gonna change the internet and how everything is related.

Gary: 14:43

I watched Minority Report in the matrix and now I'm gonna

David: 14:47

write and how do we make tech here?

English: 14:49

Yeah, basically, we just watched Ironman and we said, let's do this.

David: 14:54

Yes, yeah. I still want to see through foam that exactly. Does this. Just send it all in? Yeah, so where did this idea come from? I mean up, I clearly understand the need for it. But where did the idea that yeah, we can do this? Like, what is your background that says, We can do this this in insurmountable problem, we got this. Wow.

English: 15:16

That I really do appreciate that. I wish I could take the credit for the technology itself. But really, that was my co founder, Michael. And I met him in a when I was doing my postdoc in a lab at UNC, where I was doing a postdoc for biomedical and health informatics, and he was doing his doctorate in information retrieval, and he built this tool, and I saw it demoed in a lab meeting, and then became a huge fan girl and signed up for every single one of his human participatory studies. And basically, one day just asked him, What do you want to do with this technology? Because when he demoed it, to me, it looked like a map, it looked like a map of all the information that I needed to make a decision in a really convenient, visual way. And I said, What are you going to do with this? And he said, I don't know, I think one day, it would be cool to like, figure out how to get this out into the world, maybe start a company. And I had had a lot of coffee that morning, and I was super type A personality. And so I was like, great, I, let's go, I'm ready. Let's let's do this. And I think since then, you know, what we have, what we really aligned on and what we came together on my myself and my co founder was that, you know, technical innovations happen all the time. We live in a world where technology tech, technical innovations are very common place, which is great and such a privilege. But I think what isn't as common is acts of service within technology. How do you build empathetic systems? How do you build empathetic interactions with technology, and I think convenience is a priority. And you notice when it's not there. So for us, we really aligned on this idea of making the complex, simple, and making it beautiful, and making it delightful to interact with. And so we both came together, because we felt overwhelmed. I feel like all the time I'm drowning in a sea of information. And Google doesn't give me enough. And yes, 92% of people do visit Google. But people barely leave the first page of those results.

Gary: 17:29

And typically, those are all ads. It's not right.

English: 17:34

People barely go past results.

David: 17:38

You said something that made my mind cry a little bit, I want to understand what you were just saying what is an empathetic system? Mean? I know what empathy is, but now you're using it in ways I don't have a clue what you do. So what is an empathetic system? What does that mean?

English: 17:55

Think in my mind, what an empathetic system is, is it prioritizes the interaction with a user versus just the technology itself. And so I think that with Google, don't get me wrong, I use Google all the time. And and I need to know the name of this or I want to know when you know, Cameron Diaz was born. And I get the answers that I want. But I think that there's more information out there than we can wrap our arms around. And when I want to design systems, and when I want to design technology, I wanted to meet the user where they are, I want to be able to say, I'm going to take your email, and I'm going to take your notes. And I'm going to take every PowerPoint that you've been sent on this topic. And you can upload it and put it in the system. And then also you can look at open source intelligence, or you can look at PubMed. So what we do is we aggregate that, and we put it all in one place so that you're not constantly like, Oh, I think I remember, I had this meeting. And this, you know, was mentioned and here are my notes, or this email happened, or I want to know what's going on on Twitter, where I want to know what's going on on PubMed. That's That's how people interact with information, they go from one point to another point to over here. And we have to do the hard work of making meaning out of all of that. And what semantics does is we try and put that all in one place. And we make it very visual, and we show you what the relationship is between all of that information. And then really lead you to ask more intelligent and more thoughtful questions. And I think that that's that's what I mean by empathetic systems is that I don't sometimes just want the answer. I want a question that's going to take me to the next level, or I want something that's going to actually take me down the field to the goal line, versus just some transaction about something

Gary: 20:01

Being able to show the relationship between the information fed just sounds amazing by itself.

David: 20:08

I could, I could nerd out about this, I think all day long. But I want to, I want to I'm gonna reel it back in. This is Gary's job. But I'm gonna do Gary's job today, I'm gonna reel it in. Because our audience specifically wants to talk about business. Right? So I want to back up for a second and see where you are. Where is semantics in terms of a business? Are you profitable? Are you living off of a runway of some sort? Are you living off of investment? Where are you guys at in that world?

English: 20:37

We're living off of a runway, there, we're living off investment right now. We've hyper focused on the defense and intelligence space. And we're still in the process of saying that, you know, we've got really awesome platforms. And we've got really awesome tools, but we know that can be better. And so how do we sort of use the dollars coming in to feed that r&d stream to make things the best that they can be. And we've got big dreams. And we've got big goals of how to reimagine how people retrieve and interact with information. And we have a lot of development to do before we can really get there. We've got some some key clients. And we've been doing a lot of work with integrating our systems into others systems, which has been really just a such a such a great learning opportunity. And also, I think that some of this right is that what I've learned in business is that we have our ideas, and we have the things that we want to build. And we feel like we've really hit a market and solving a problem that people really have. But sometimes what business is about is also solving a problem that people are telling you that they have, right? So if someone just needs a searchable database, let's go try and build that for them and then layer our technology on top. And so a lot of it is sort of figuring out, what problems does our technology really immediately solve? And then what problems can we as a company help solve?

David: 22:09

So you guys have a one of the things that I have said about our own company is, you know, almost every business needs what we do in some capacity, because everybody's a technology business in some way, shape, or form. But most people don't know that they need us. Or someone like us, I would imagine you are in the same boat. I mean, everyone is overwhelmed by the amount of data that's thrown at them every day. But no one has any clue that there's a solve for that. Right? So how did you are you guys to the point where, if you've listened to the show as much I use the term slog, which is where you're just yelling at everybody to try to make them pay attention to you. Versus you have gravity and they're coming to you because they understand that you have a solution. Are you guys in the slog right now where you're trying to convince people that yes, in fact, you do need us? And we were like, Yes, I do. Or you to the point where like, Hey, I'm overwhelmed. Can you guys help?

English: 23:05

I think it's both. And I'll cut I'll caveat that by saying I think initially with I would say 99% of our interactions, it's the slog. But I think once we get our foot in the door, it becomes one of those very clear things like, we actually have made people's lives easier. And then they come to us, and they're like, no, no, let's keep going like, what what else, you know, so. So I think it's a little bit of both, but I would say that, I mean, we're small, we're really like a year and a half, maybe you're seven months old. So it's still the the moment of time where we're just trying to get out there and get like, you know, just say like raising our hand saying we're here and we think we can help.

David: 23:50

So the slog is is a difficult time, but you guys sounds like you're on the cusp of maybe getting through it. We talked about all the time is a if you are in the slog, and you're not passionate about bout your idea, then you're not going to make it through the slog. And clearly your passions there that that is not even in doubt it that comes through very clearly. But it's it's so hard, right? It doesn't make that any easier. No one cares about your baby. And you've got this cool baby that everyone should see. And everyone should buy in and throw money at you. And they you have to convince them you're the founder. You're You're the guy or gal. But I guess both of you are doing this, where you have to explain to them why you need that. And that is that is hard work. You probably need a nap. And so you know, I feel Yeah.

Gary: 24:41

Now are you in the stage where you're trying to like create a larger network of potential clients through like referrals and word of mouth of existing clients or are you kind of building like a hit list of potential clients that you need to go after?

English: 24:59

It's all of it. it. I mean, it's just, it's just the hustle, right? It's everything. It's yes, we definitely want that snowball effect of if you like us you like what we do or helping you out refer us, you know, and that's been happening, which is really wonderful. But then it's also absolutely the hitlist. Right. It's, it's, I want to live, I really want to work with this, this company or these people, because A, we're still in the zone where that that customer and user feedback is everything, right? Like, that's just everything that's going to help us build the best products that we can build. And so the more that we can get at that, through different perspectives through different organizations, different teams. That to me is is really high priority.

David: 25:46

That reminds me of a company we used to work with a long time ago, they were a marketing firm. And they you said hitless is what sparked my memory, they had this idea, there were 50 companies that they wanted to work with. And so the CEO had this idea that I'm going to make just this crazy pitch to them, it was a box full of basically swag. And it was very, I mean, I think each box was something like $400 worth of stuff. And they were like, We're investing in this, and we're gonna send to the CEO of l 50. Companies. And it was, it was so cool, because everything was super on brand, right? Everything was, it was beautifully done. And it was it was really well packaged, and it just screamed at this is our brand, this is what we do, you should use us. And they sent it out. And I think trying to remember, like, of course, some don't ever get there and some get lost or never they the office manager just kicks it off to the side, whatever keeps it for themselves. But I think they got 10 of those 50 clients from this effort. And they, they found it to be wildly successful. And I believe they did it again, like a couple of years later. But I just thought that was such I'd never heard of anybody just I mean, that's balls out. Yeah. Just you know, spending a lot of money to get those clients. We know who we want. These are who we want. And they got some of them. And that was I thought just super cool. I'm sorry. It just reminded me when you're saying yeah, we know who we want to work with. It just kind of gave me that memory there.

English: 27:18

That's awesome. It's such an

David: 27:21

I love I mean, um, we talked to startups and founders and CEOs all the time. And some are on fire. Some are done. Some are crying. They're some themselves asleep as they go through the slog. And I mean, it's refreshing to hear your passion and your your love for this. And it's such a such a unique idea. I mean, it's it makes sense. But I never would have thought about it beforehand. Does that make sense? I'm sure you hear that all the time. It's such a cool idea. And it's like, where's this been?

Gary: 27:54

Yeah, the way you've explained, like, the benefits of this technology, like I can see that fitting into so many different practical applications in industries like that's really unique. And I mean, if you get it to work the way it's supposed to work for just a couple of key clients, that's definitely going to get the ball rolling, for sure.

David: 28:14

I'm curious though, if the new AI, like I'm thinking of the Bing bot that we were talking about before, the Bing search bot, I think is officially the same, it doesn't matter. I'm in that beta. So I've been playing around with it like today. So I've been looking at the Corvette Ciate. And it's a pipe dream. It's a gorgeous car. But I've been looking at it. And I have a Camaro right now. And I did a search today. And I was like, what are the dimensions of a CA? This is what I type. What are the dimensions between a C eight and Camaro 2017 Camaro, this mucker car, and it did a search and did another search, put those together and created a little table for me. So it sounds kind of like what you're talking about. It's grabbing sources from all over the place, and then condensing it into an insert that here you go, I didn't have to make because I was planning, you know, I'm gonna go do search for this thing. I'm gonna do a search for this. And I'm gonna do it the way I've been doing it forever. But I was like, Well, why don't I play with this thing? But I've never, I haven't really done a whole lot with it. And it did exactly that. And um, is that similar to what you're doing? And if so, are you threatened by all of this new fanciness? That's coming down the pipe?

English: 29:22

That's a great question. And so at a high level, yes. What you're saying is exactly what we want to do. And that what we're actively doing. However, the main difference in my mind is I'm not, to me, the search capability, especially like if we're talking about the Bing bot or chat GPT. That's a you're casting a wide net on the whole internet. And that's really cool. And there's a lot of use cases for that. And I absolutely see a day when we're actually plugging the API of chat GBT into our services for summarization for all of these things that could really be a value to our user. The difference in what semantics is really going after is I'm not, I'm not going after the person who's like, I want to write a paper on Charles Dickens, or I want to sort of get a generalized understanding of some topic. I'm very much more interested in domain specific, complex problems. So when I'm talking about my user, I'm talking about the intel analyst. I'm talking about somebody who is like, I'm not just interested in what's going on in the internet, I'm actually wanting to plug in all of my transcribed meetings, all of my internal notes, all of my very specific space domain awareness information, and make meaning out of all of that, so that I can embrace and understand the complexity of my information as it relates to ecosystem information. But it's a lot more domain specific than it is this sort of general I want World War Two history. And so I'm not as much threatened because, you know, my, my background is psychology, and behavioral economics. And so I'm always of the mind that it's much easier to ride a wave than create one. And I would love to ride the wave of chat GPT within our product. But we're just going after different things. We're trying to help different people solve different problems.

David: 31:26

Nice, nice. Okay. I think, Gary, we've come to that time.

Gary: 31:32

Well, you said you guys are about a year and a half year and seven or so months in so far. So the one question we ask everybody, and I'm sure these are going to be fresh on your list right now. Because you're right in the middle of it, what are the top three pieces of advice that you would give an entrepreneur, a new business or a startup when they begin their journey?

English: 31:55

Alright, this is this is tough, I'm gonna speak from an angle of just being a CEO doing a lot of like, internal organizational building, right now we're going through a space of organizational change. So I guess the first piece that I would say is that for any entrepreneur, especially when they're trying to build an organization, around a cool product, or around services, I think that as a leader, there, I'm learning that there's kind of this space between stimulus and response. And that's where your power is, I think that as a leader have had to learn that self regulation, and how you self regulate your reactions is really important. As you're trying to set a culture and trying to set a climate within your company, you don't want to, you don't want to be sort of overly, you know, worried in a crisis, you don't want to necessarily go overly worried or overly passionate, when something really good happens, you want to, you want to be able to be thoughtful about your responses whenever there's sort of a stimulus that's occurring. So I think that that's one of the things that I'm trying to get better at. And I think the other piece would be, I've learned that progress really goes at the pace of trust, both with your clients and and with the people that you hire in your organization. Building trust is really important, and you can't really move forward in a really productive way without having that foundation of trust. And see, I think the last one that I've felt really, I think, felt really deeply lately is, you know, there's always the complexity horizon, there's always like, you look far enough ahead. And things feel really daunting, and it feels really fuzzy. And you can't really do anything about that chaos. Except I think you can really intentionally back people who can handle it, and back the ones and hire the ones and and partner with the ones that are comfortable being uncomfortable. And looking out at that complexity horizon. So that those are the three things that I keep telling myself lately as I'm trying to build a company.

Gary: 34:18

Well, you approach that question from a completely new perspective. And that was awesome to hear.

David: 34:26

I'm going to start saying the words, empathetic systems and complexity horizon as much as I possibly can. I'm gonna add that huge

English: 34:37

drop in like drones, and like, you know, maybe Bitcoin and Synergistics energy. Yeah.

Gary: 34:42

Well, English. Anybody who has been curious about what you do as much as No, I'm going to be, they could check you out on your website, which is semantics. It's C YMNTI. exe. And is there any other way that you would like people to reach out and get into As with you guys or learn more about your business,

English: 35:02

we're on LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn. We also, we have an Instagram account semantics does. We have an amazing designer and head of human experience who puts really cool stuff on Instagram. So check it out,

Gary: 35:15

shout out to your designer, for sure. Yeah, we will put those links in our show notes as well. Perfect. And, as always, if anybody wants to get in touch with us, they can leave a comment underneath this video, or they can email us at Hello at the big pixel dotnet. Or also reach out to us on any of our social media channels.

David: 35:35

With that, thank you so much for joining us. This has been very, very cool. And I have learned so much that my brain is now a complexity horizon Eggsy. So what I did there, and thank you so much. Thank you again for joining us. This has been a lot of fun. I appreciate it very much. Awesome.

English: 35:54

Thank you guys. This has been great. I hope to come back.

Gary: 35:58

All right. It was super nice venia and we'll see everybody next week.