Be the Difference w/ Terence Oliver | Ep. 91

In this episode, David and Gary interview acclaimed Teacher and CEO, Terence Oliver and discuss how teaching has changed and how no matter how old we get- we never stop learning. Success in startups is all about the grace you give yourselves and others.

Links:

Terence's LinkedIn

Simply Told Design Page

https://www.score.org/

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David Baxter - CEO of Big Pixel

Gary Voigt - Creative Director at Big Pixel

The Podcast

David Baxter has been designing, building, and advising startups and businesses for over ten years. His passion, knowledge, and brutal honesty have helped dozens of companies get their start.

In Biz/Dev, David and award-winning Creative Director Gary Voigt talk about current events and how they affect the world of startups, entrepreneurship, software development, and culture.

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Transcript

David: 0:05

Hi, everyone. Welcome to the biz dev Podcast, the podcast about developing your business. I'm David Baxter, your host and I am joined today by Gary Voight, who is taking a break from his tour of Baby shark where he plays grandpa shark. Welcome back, man.

Gary: 0:21

I think you have to be a grandpa to get that reference. I was sad.

David: 0:25

That was a good one. That was a good to see. Our guest is laughing. All right. So speaking of our guests, we are speaking more importantly than Gary, we're speaking to Terrence Oliver, who is a Walter Spearman, distinguished professor in the UNC School of media and journalism. And CEO of simply told design, how's it going? Mr. Terrence?

Terence: 0:44

Is going awesome. How are you guys?

Gary: 0:47

Doing? Well, thanks for joining us.

David: 0:49

I can't complain except by Gary. Yeah.

Gary: 0:54

You don't get the jump on the bandwagon just yet. I like him already. He's making a good day.

Terence: 1:05

I figured it would go back and forth. So

David: 1:09

mainly just me making fun of Gary. Because,

Gary: 1:11

yeah, because he has the editor cut me out. So I don't make him look bad.

David: 1:15

Yeah, that's right. That's right. The editor is my son. So it makes it really easy. Oh, perfect, perfect. I'm gonna I'm gonna bring up something that's completely unrelated to anything we should be talking about. But my kids found this bot online. It is called the hot chat 3000. And it is an AI bot. So in theory, it's using AI to look at your picture. And then it rates how hot you are on a scale of one to 10. And then you're only allowed to chat with other people who are as hot as you are. So if you are not hot, you can't speak to hot people.

Gary: 1:50

So that's gonna go well. Yeah,

David: 1:53

you can imagine where this is going. So at first my son does it in he finds a picture of himself. And he puts it up there and he gets a 6.7, which put him close to Timothy Charlotte, Charlemagne, the actor guy from Dune, who is, you know, well known good looking guy. So he's feeling pretty proud of himself. And he goes off, and he tells everybody that my daughter does it, she gets a 7.8. And he is just upset. Because she's jealous. He's jealous of my daughter. And it gets even worse. Okay, so me and my wife do it were 5.2 each. So at least we were pretty, pretty equal, that could have gotten real bad. So we got off easy. So I'm fine with that. I'm fine with Danny. DeVito is 3.2, by the way, anyway. So but then we throw it all the way through for a loop, we we put it so we have a new puppy, and we took a picture of him, he got an 8.6. And what my dog is ugly, like D is not an attractive animal. So we're already a little sketchy about this AI algorithm. And so he started she starts chatting as my dog. And everybody's like, why are you a dog and my, my daughter only says rough. That's the only thing she answered on the chat. And then we finally to my last dog, he gets a 9.3. So we figure there's something wrong with this bot. But it was entertaining over the weekend

Gary: 3:17

with the robots prefer pets to humans, which

David: 3:21

see, if I were I would have gotten everybody I recognized as a dog, if I'm using AI is what I would have done, I would have just automatically given them all like a flat nine. So all pets just a nine that says it but

Gary: 3:32

there's a lot going on in AI now with video. And with audio. Everybody knows about the image generation, but it's doing a lot more with video and audio. So I kind of wanted to see if he's dabbled with it, played with it or just seen what's going on in AI and video and audio creation and get his thoughts on it. Especially from a branding, marketing and advertising perspective.

Terence: 3:55

You Yeah, so I played with it in January for about maybe 45 minutes. And so that's my experience with it. I haven't returned to it. But I did wind up doing a podcast with my wife about it. My experience and she's on the writing site. So she did a podcast. I mean, she talked about the chat GPT area of it. And with Da Li I found it very interesting because everything was based on my prompts and because I have a vast experience in visual communication, I was able to strategically have some great props right away so within 45 minutes I had some really awesome results. I did I made Yeah, I made some fish robots and things like that really cool things and but it really the more specific I got with my props, the better results I got and that was just my 45 minute experience with it. Outside of just generally have

Gary: 4:58

you seen any of the A video that is generated by AI

Terence: 5:06

I've only seen a little bit of it, I'm still probing in that actually had a little bit of this rash distraction earlier in the year because my wife had a few medical challenges. And we made it through thank God, but so as far as like some of the newer aspects with video and things like that I haven't probed into it as deeply as I'd like to outside of the valley.

David: 5:33

If you haven't, Will Smith eating pasta? Oh, wow. Oh my gosh, I was writing it. Because AI is I mean, this was I guess this isn't a brand new video, they've made it. The what's weird about AI is it's improving so fast. But this was probably a few months ago when I think it originally came out. But it can't do faces great. And it certainly can't do mouths great. And so this video is Will Smith. And it's just, it's so bad. But it's hilarious. It's he's eating pasta, and then they put like the Fresh Prince of Bel Air behind it. It is just it

Gary: 6:16

basically creates a deep fake from all the images of Will Smith. And then it pulls audio for all the episodes and interviews these done and then puts together this, I guess you could say it's like, it's sculpted a really bad sculpture of a video. But it is it's interesting and scary and funny all at the same time. But

David: 6:40

what I'm curious about when it comes to the video side of it is, do you think and this is an opinion? I'm not asking from an assessment point of expertise. But do you think we will get past the uncanny valley, which, for people who don't know what that is there is it is the line in which you recognize this is fake. If you look at the eyes on Polar Express many years ago, the eyes look dead inside and it creeps people out. That's called the uncanny valley. When you cross that which you can say, like Pixar, for instance, doing animation, and they're probably some of the best in the world. They understood the uncanny valley very, very well. So they never went to super hyper realism, right? All their people look like toys. That's their whole shtick, their humans look like toys. And, and we're fine with that. Right? As long as it's not trying to be hyper realistic. Your brain doesn't see creepiness. When you see Will Smith eating pasta, like a crazed lunatic. Your mind just freaks out. It's like this is not okay. And that's why it's funny. Do you think we're gonna get to the point where we have realistic video being generated by AI, which would tie into what you do your motion graphics and stuff like that? Do you think that this is a real thing? Or do you think we're gonna hit a wall? And it's just gonna die out that you know what I mean, die out, like, it's just not gonna eat keep advancing so quickly.

Terence: 8:09

Yeah, I think it would definitely will have traction. Actually, even if you look at recent deep fake, like, with President Obama, I don't know if you all saw those with President Obama. And what's the actor can think of his name. Anyway, with, with President Obama, if you look up deep fake, you'll see some really interesting things. And that's kind of, you know, crossing the line, in a lot of ways, is really powerful. And what I've seen from Ai, is that has been rapidly learning. And so and if you look at the stats, and I don't have them in front of me, but it seems like everything was going expeditiously already, as far as like the numbers from like, November, to the last time I was really probing deeply and ended in February. And so I'm sure, you know, I don't think there'll be a valley, I think that it, we're gonna cross that threshold, and it's just gonna be where you can't tell the difference.

David: 9:20

So does that with that being said, does that make you nervous at all? Being that your business is motion graphics and those sorts of things? Does it make you nervous at all about what is coming?

Terence: 9:33

No, doesn't make me nervous. I mean, I was on the front end of Adobe come in, and everybody was nervous about that. And you know, that was fine. I think the thing that makes me nervous is, you know, not the creative side is the outside of the creative side. When you talk about politics, when you talk about influences with other countries and things like that the intention or when you did it in are correct. I think that That's the difficult part where we're going. And actually also, strategically, if you look at these computers, I believe it was Facebook, probably about three years ago, they had two computers internally that they were doing in their research and development, they had the computers talking to each other. And the computer started creating their own language. And so they had to stop the program, because the computers were going to be hot beyond, you know what, you know what we were understanding.

Gary: 10:32

Great. So now we expect metal Labs has some transformer locked in a glass cage. That's going to destroy so

David: 10:41

the good news is Gary, it has no legs. So it's not going anywhere. There's no, did you guys hear this? This is from the news. Just a week ago, I don't know, Elon Musk is being sued by people forum who were saying that they're taking exception to the fact of the statements he made about self driving cars and Tesla. And he said in 2016, that they could drive themselves and they were perfectly good. And he's getting sued for those lines. And he and his lawyers now are taking to court that because Elon is Elon, and he's such a public figure that this very possibly could have been a deep fake. And he didn't actually say, Do we have any proof that he said this is now in court. Of course, they they do have tons of proof because he said 2016. And a open room with 400 Reporters

Gary: 11:36

has a bunch of cell phone cameras.

David: 11:40

But it was really interesting that this is already an argument for someone like Elon could, and the judge just absolutely swatted it down saying, you're trying to put the guys on that because you're public. And because people do make deep fakes of Elon, that you can say whatever you want, and you do not get in trouble. And he's like, I don't buy it. And it's through the whole argument out. But it was really interesting that we are already to the point where they're throwing that into court, like you're talking about, I mean, in a few years, it's gonna get real ugly. It's just I mean, politics, I can just imagine how ugly it will get in maybe even this election, but I'm guessing it'll be more 2820 28 more than 2024 is my guess as to when this stuff gets real mature. Because right now, if you try to put up a video, it's kind of like Will Smith, no one's gonna buy that. That's Joe Biden, right? It's, it's just not gonna, even though Joe Biden at pasta might be something I would watch.

Gary: 12:40

Let's transition back into what we're talking about, for this episode anyway. So I wanted to ask you some questions. I'm a designer, and I've dabbled in motion design and a little bit of video just for fun. But you've been an award winning motion graphics producer for a while. And you've now turn that into teaching and you started simply told design. So can you give us a little, I guess a brief history of simple simply told design and how you got there?

Terence: 13:12

Yeah, so basically, simply told design is is a DBA of elite execution design, which I created in 2013. And so basically, what I focus on with simply total design is really trying to work with researchers or other people who have hard stories to tell. And so simply told, design is really communicating complex information simply. So trying to distill understand distill information and convey it in simple ways. So since I'm a professor at a university, it caught a lot of opportunities fall in my lap to work with researchers, medical schools, engineering schools, and those in the light. What makes my situation kind of unique is that since I'm a professor, I train a lot of students because I teach all the motion graphics classes in the journalism school Journalism and Media School. And so let's see, let's say two, three years out, when students are seasoned. A lot of times I'm able to they're seasoned professionals, I'm able to bring them in to my company, when I need contractors. And so that's how it works. And it's worked out pretty well.

Gary: 14:46

Nice. So the background that you had in I figured journalism, correct. Like working were you working with newspapers or news outlets or television news out of that?

Terence: 15:00

Yeah, I originally started out in advertising, I worked. For a few ad agencies, I worked for supermarket advertising. And then I went into newspaper and I worked as an editorial artists, art director, Assistant art director. And ultimately, I came with assistant managing editor where I was in charge of 50 people in a newsroom, and those were in newspapers. And so that's was my focus.

Gary: 15:30

The reason I asked is so yeah, to take that background, and then build it into the motion graphics, I'm assuming that you were probably producing and editing a lot of the content for those publications and magazines and, and agencies. And then now with teaching, you said that you are able to use some of your students that you teach as, like contractors. Do you have a pretty big team? Or do you still kind of operate as a small team using contractors to produce the content now?

Terence: 16:00

Yeah, yes, pretty small, because I am a professor, so I only have so much time. And so I do have my daughter who sometimes project manages for me, but she lives in Shanghai, China, she's about to actually move to Vietnam, because of all the things that happen in China. And so, but she's kind of like in that, but she sometimes projects managed for me manages for me, but I do use a lot of contractors or subcontractors however you want to define them. But it's more project by project basis. But I I'm about I would say 15. Deep, as far as my go to team that I have now.

Gary: 16:51

Okay? Did you find it hard to go from creating the content, adding content to managing other people that are doing that? In other words, David likes to ask a lot of times, you have to become a leader, which means you also have to give away some of your job for other people to do it for you. Since you have like 15 people you're working with? I'm guessing a lot of your time is now spent with more administration type duties and management duties instead of actually editing and producing content.

Terence: 17:23

Yeah, I think that in any creatives life, there are seasons, and you have to recognize those seasons. And so when I was hands on in newspapers, I was doing a lot of illustration, a lot of design, a lot of infographics. Just a diversity of creative projects. However, when I was recruited to the art director, then I had to make a decision. How do I juggle that? How do I manage that in in the same way, it's sort of like the same thing that I'm going through now with my company. And so with that said, a lot of times what will happen, as you rise up as a leader, you'll have your hands on on a lot of projects, but what you have to realize, too, when opportunity comes and things expand, you have to open up your mind to realize that you can't do everything and, and a lot of times, you know, especially with the schedule that I was juggling, I would be up till 4am working on projects, and then back in the classroom, maybe, you know, 10am or whatever. And that became kind of ridiculous. And so you have, you can have also diminishing returns and things like that. And so one of the things that was very important. And key to your question, Gary, is that when I started working with score, and I don't know if you are familiar with score, are you familiar with score? I'm not, okay. Now, this is fascinating, because this is a government program that is available for anybody in the US. And a lot of people have no idea of our score. And my brother told me about score probably about 10 years ago, and I started to use his allies with him about six years ago. So basically, score is retired businessmen and women who volunteer their time, and they'll look at your business plan. They'll look at your, your, your company, and then they'll give you advice, and they'll actually bug you. They'll be like, Okay, did you do this? When can we meet again, this kind of thing. And what happened was they examined what I was doing. And they said that, let me tell you who they are. First of all, they hooked me up with a seasoned accountant. And they also hooked me up with a former ad agency. Owner, and the ad agency owner is very interesting, because you all heard a Prego right? Prego spaghetti sauce. Oh, yeah. Yeah, right. Right. So is is everywhere, right? So my, my one mentor, Charlie Lehman, he's the one who named that he's the one who created that campaign. And so he's my personal mentor. And also, you know, I have Arnold as my mentor, who's the accountant. And so basically what they do is they, they counsel you for free, all of this is for free. And if you look at, if you type score in Google, it'll pop up at the top. And anybody can take advantage of that in your local city. And so basically, when a pandemic happened, they were telling me that you're going to have to stop staying up all night doing this and saying that you are the brand. And just as long as your stamp is on it, and you're overseeing a team, you will be better off, you know, hiring subcontractors. And so that's why I started going deeper into subcontractors. And, and it's been wonderful because I just oversee these projects. I'm having less and less hands on, and that's fine. And so as I talk about seasons, I think that they kind of pushed me into that season.

Gary: 21:06

Was it hard to let go of the creative part? Like the getting your part? No.

Terence: 21:14

Not really, because I still do some, and I just decide when I want to do it. And, and sometimes it's by default, because, you know, maybe there's a last minute change, and I got to, you know, roll up my sleeves and dive in deeply. And then that keeps me you know, steady, and, you know, fluid with what I do. And so that way I don't find fall behind in my skills.

David: 21:39

It is I pulled them up while you were talking. This is amazing. Yeah. Why is not everyone? This is cool. So it's it's score.org. We'll put a link in the show notes. And it's free advice, just like you're saying, and it's sponsored by the SBA, Small Business Administration. And there's no cost. No, not that. That's wild. Yeah, they have bad marketing, because seriously, everyone should know. I didn't

Gary: 22:05

know they existed. But that is critical. Take advantage of that is kind of silly.

Terence: 22:09

He is absolutely and it changed my life. I mean, and actually, my mentor, my, my wife wrote a couple of books, and my mentor kind of crossed the bridge and started helping her with her advice for her book. Yeah. And he also she's writing a leadership book, and he's actually doing a part of her book is.

David: 22:34

Wow, so you're paired up with a great one.

Terence: 22:37

Oh, yeah. Apps. I want to

David: 22:39

I want to change gears completely. And then come back to what you're saying, Gary, but I have I have a question. That's just, you've been a teacher for 20 plus years, and various universities. For the last 12 You've been at UNC which is University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, one of the top public schools in the country. My son really, really wants to go there. And not not plugging that in. I think just noting that Yeah. Is there a way at Navasky? Yeah, I would love to know over those 20 years. How have students changed? Um, you you're teaching journalism and media, right. So that's changed. And I that I understand. But what I'm just curious is, how have students changed? In your mind? Good, bad, ugly? I'm just curious. How have they changed over the 20 years, because that's just my mom was a teacher for two years. And she was very pessimistic over how the kids changed. She was not a fan of how she stopped teaching. I'm trying to remember probably 10 years ago now. So it's been a while, but you're in the thick of it still, I'm curious what your thoughts are.

Terence: 23:54

So it's interesting, because I did see a rapid change, especially the more and more social media became acceptable, because what you would find is, you know, and also texting you will find students texting, you will find students distracted on our computers and used to bother me a lot. And I used to have a heavy hand and right now, I still have a heavy, heavy hand, but also I have a hand of grace. And so that's how I kind of approach things and and so I don't get bent out of shape anymore. If I see somebody texting or on their phone, or whatever, I kind of almost see him as in an environment, a professional environment. It's like they're not robots, and just so long as they can deliver, I don't care. And, and honestly, and not just like you were saying, David not to like try to impress anybody or promote anything, but our students have done amazing For the last 13 years, they have led the way with society for news design, international awards, and the contest just happened. And there were 250 entries from 15 universities around the world. And the judges picked 59 of the entries as winners, and our students won 26. Wow. And so, yeah, so it's just I have an amazing crew and I just had a celebration over my house, I don't have a final final where you come in, you're sweating. My students put in enough rigor throughout the semester. So my final was a celebration, you know, so they show up at my house, and we have everything on a big screen, and we celebrate each student and we give them a little gift, that kind of thing is so and so from from day one, day one in my class is no work in the last day is no work. So day one is basically I want to know who you are. They tell him who I am. But I want to know who you are. And that informs me to have those teachable moments throughout the semester. So that David, so your your question is very interesting, because in the beginning, when I first started teaching, I was just like a madman from the industry. With high expectations, I still have those, but I was like the person cracking the whip, you know, I locked the door, went, when I came in, if it was class started at noon, the door was locked at noon. And so they had to actually knock to come in. And so now is here. And that's how it was, if they were late, of course, I have standards when they're late. But sometimes I have a little bit of grace early on, because they're still learning. But again, I think when I talked about the hand of grace, and then also that hard hand, just just that balance that you have to have. And and so what I've seen is that the students are way better than multitasking than I will ever be. And so whereas they may look distracted, they're spot on, they know exactly what you're talking about, they can maybe be sending a hide from their mom, or whatever they're doing, or whatever they're doing on Google, I don't even care anymore. And so sometimes I'm teaching is just like, Are you paying attention, and they know they pick up the concepts they deliver. And so and it's proven because when they're up against, you know, 15 universities, and there's 250 entries, and only 59 awards are given and they won 26 that's saying something. So the proof is in the pudding. And so, and I believe that was the proper problem. When I was in newspapers, I would always talk about looking at the next generation, but they were so stuck on that they were having 25% margins with this, you know, with profit and great stocks and all this kind of stuff. They were thinking that they had the model, but they weren't looking at the way things were transitioning in society. So as things transition in society, you must adjust in teaching, but you're not suggesting industry. And so I think that smart companies are doing that. So they're leveraging what students bring to the table. So when I tell my students, there's a sign on the wall, and I tell them this every year, there's a sign on the wall, here at our school, and it says Good is the enemy a great. And so if you get so satisfied with the good, you're gonna miss the great. And so you have to really be this thinker that thinks not just outside the box, but think about, you know, again, what are you bringing to the table? And so I think, you know, that's kind of the key there.

Gary: 28:56

I also see that you have a mantra in teaching to make a difference be the difference?

Terence: 29:01

Yes. Yeah. So and that was that's been my mantra since 2001. And, and, again, that was early when I first started teaching. That was first year I started teaching. And, and my first week of teaching was when September 11 happened. So it was like crazy. So I was this person who had Yeah, I was this person who had been in the media for almost 20 years. And then all of a sudden I transition to full time teaching. And here September 11 happened. So I was just kind of going crazy in the classroom. But my understanding is that when you're communicating messages, especially when you're doing it in media is all about people. It's all about, you know, having those stories, but ultimately is about unveiling the stories behind the stories. And sometimes that is what bridged the gap to this discipline. A people deem disfranchise disenfranchised and misunderstood and this kind of stuff and, and so it's very important to kind of take the veil off, and you start understanding like, wow, that person is not that different from me. And so if you can think about to make a difference be the difference that kind of catapults you kind of pushes you to really strive to get to the heart of the story and go beyond those things that you, you've been taught the things that you've seen, and that kind of thing and, and go into territory, that maybe there's empathy, maybe there's better understanding, you know, yeah, I'm not a woman, and I'll never be a woman, I'll never understand all the things about a woman. But that kind of pushes me if I'm doing something about females about women to dig a little bit deeper, ask more questions. So those kinds of things so I can get some sense of understanding. You know, from my vantage point,

Gary: 30:56

that sounds like it lend that lends itself into what you were telling us about simply told design as well about uncovering the story behind the story, and then taking complex information and telling it in a simple way. So we ask everybody on our show, and your situation might be a little bit different, since you kind of grew simply told design out of a long history and background. But if you were to take your knowledge and expertise, and share it with a new entrepreneur, or someone starting their own business, what are the top three pieces of advice you would give them?

Terence: 31:31

First, excuse me, first of all, I would say, think about opportunity. So things that gone above and beyond just your business, plan your revelation, your ideas, and think about what people can do to help you. A lot of times we're not used to having a helping hand. But that's one of the discoveries that I have, when I revelations that I had when I came to find out about score, right? I have like these two professional, seasoned professionals, and I'm getting all this information, they're challenging me. And then it's just like, well, I thought that, you know, I was this Adobe expert, I'm a seasoned professional, you know, because I was, you know, I'll be actually 62. Next, this month, in a few weeks on May 12, actually, less than two weeks, I'll be 62 years old. So when I discovered score, I was already in my late 50s. Right? And so you think about that, you know, I have a right to think about oh, you know, I've learned I don't need that much help, you know, this kind of thing. No matter where you are, whatever age you are, you can always use help from other people. And I think that is fundamental to think about how you can leverage that. And when you go to places and you meet people, is a lot of times you there's win win situation. So it's not about just networking, and you try to find, okay, I'm trying to find this person who can help me, but you're trying to also find people you can help. And there's just like this exchange, and this, you know, timing and all of that. So I think that's important.

Gary: 33:23

Entrepreneurs or leaders will say you have to find someone that knows more than you in certain areas that you don't. But yeah, it's also kind of hard for people to admit that they're not the expert sometimes as well. So you brought up Adobe, which I just wanted to ask a little side note question here. In your path, and video editing has always been Adobe, have you always worked with Adobe products? Or did you dabble in like the Apple, like Final Cut stuff or recently into the DaVinci Resolve space?

Terence: 33:56

Okay, so I started off as a traditional illustrator. So doing pastels, painting, drawing or anything, you know, that related to that. And so my transition into even digital tools was really a program called Mac draw. And so it was before Illustrator before something called freehand. And so it kind of started off with those kinds of programs. And then when freehand was the major drawing program, digital program, I started using Adobe Illustrator, something about Adobe Illustrator told me that this was solid. And so I started teaching industry professionals at the Poynter Institute, along with other professionals, and one guru, he was all about freehand and I was about Illustrator, Adobe, and I saw like the writing on the wall and of course, you know, I want out, you know,

Gary: 34:59

yeah, you Eventually, Adobe bought Macromedia and freehand just gotta go right into Illustrator anyway. So

Terence: 35:06

correct. And that's how they got after effects too. So they were. So they were they were strategic and they were smart. And they were buying all these companies. Right now in the AI space eight, they have something called Firefly and I just looked into that I haven't been able to date I've been playing with into that. Oh, yeah, you like it?

Gary: 35:25

It's interesting. It's I like the way that they attribute and credit, the any of the artists styles or imagery that they use. That's very good.

Terence: 35:37

Yeah, so so it as far as like that evolution. I did start as far as motion. Basically, I'll tell you how I started in motion. I got tenure at Ohio University. And so I was all print, I was all you know, focused in a little bit of digital, but not motion graphics. And so 2007 I proposed a sabbatical. So I went on sabbatical, and I learned motion graphics on my own. And so I started using Apple Motion for about a month and a half. And then I realized that I was going in the wrong direction. And so I started using Adobe After Effects. And so that's how I got into that. And so that's been the premiere program that I've used. And it's really the industry standard right now, though. There's other ways of producing as well.

Gary: 36:28

Yeah, After Effects is really fun. I like using After Effects when I have the chance to. Okay, that was a little bit inside baseball just for me. So I know David had not cast for a nap.

David: 36:41

Nerd test.

Terence: 36:42

So So what are you what are you got? David, what do you have?

David: 36:47

Oh, I don't touch design anymore. I hire Gary and haven't looked back. I used to do design. And I still consider myself a designer of but it's more of a UX thing than it is making pretty things like I read, I used to do all of for gosh, six years or so before I started really set maybe even longer than that of big pixel, I did all the designs, and they were fine. They were good clients like them. But then I hired Gary and I realized how simple my stuff was. I think I came in actually at a good time when super clean design and minimalism was popular, I could do that. Right, I could do that. And then as it's moved away from that to the like the material stuff and the fluid stuff, and all of that where it's a little more subtle. I realized how bad I really was like I can do clean and minimal. And, and that worked. But once you stepped out step or two out of that, I just didn't have the skills. And so it was very good to find someone like Gary, who is very good at that stuff. That's the only time you were going to edit this out.

Gary: 37:58

Terrence, my path was similar to yours, I'd started drawing freehand drawing and taking commercial art classes in a local college. And that was when digital art was kind of taking over in that space. So it was like the commercial art where you draw, photograph make, and then burn plates for print and stuff like that. And then digital art was starting with Mac draw and illustrator. And there was that gap in between where I wasn't comfortable with computers at all. So I kind of had a weird separation where I was like, Okay, well, if I'm not gonna go anywhere with the actual physical drawing abilities and have to learn computers, I don't know if this is the right move for me. So it took me a little while to kind of adjust. But then once I got into computers, again, it's all easy. Illustrator was to us. Yeah, you didn't have to be a programmer to actually draw nice, cool looking stuff on the computer anymore. That's why I started there. And then all through the Adobe products up to now where I do a lot more UI and UX design. So I've been using figma a lot more. Because it's, it's built more for that. But I still use the Adobe products. Yeah, same as you started in print and then kind of went up through the chain. I did a little bit of motion graphics and After Effects for a little while. I love doing it. But I never became an expert at it and never had the time to do it. But still super impressed by that is

Terence: 39:19

really this conversation is great. You know why? Because this is what I love about it. Because there's room for everyone. Honestly, there's room for everyone, you know, flat tire and simple design. More organic stuff. Oh, yeah. And then also people who make

Gary: 39:37

there was an iPad Pro and an Apple pencil. I was young. I would have never ever stopped. That's so awesome.

Terence: 39:44

Yeah, there are tutorials everywhere. You know, LinkedIn learning, you could just go YouTube and you can have like an 18 girl, showing you something in five minutes that can be critical to your career path. Is just that amazing. And so Oh, that's what I try to impress upon students is that, you know, you're, you know, you just have to learn how to learn, you know, and really assess kind of problem solving. It's just like, What do you want to do? There are some really easy things to kind of just find little simple tutorials and just go block by block. And you next thing, you know, you built this whole big ol creative building, so to speak.

Gary: 40:24

Yeah. And in the process of doing those and making those mistakes, because you know, no tutorials, always. But you know, you do a couple of them, you find five different techniques, do the same thing. And then you start realizing what you can and can't do and how far you can push the application. And then, yeah, as long as you're into learning more, it's it's almost like an infinite amount of knowledge out there. So very cool. Well, if anybody wants to learn anything more about simply told design, where can they go to find Yeah,

Terence: 40:56

unfortunately, my website got hacked, like four times. And so I kind of did away with that. And so I just worked with Vimeo. Now. I just house things on Vimeo. So if you go to Vimeo, vimeo.com/elite, excellent execution, elite execution.com. And no, elite. Sorry, maybe your.com/elite execution design. Yeah, that's it. I don't go there that off.

Gary: 41:32

We're going to include that link, and your LinkedIn link. And also a link to the score.org is in the show notes of this show. So everybody will be able to see

David: 41:44

here if they want to get in touch with us. How would they do that?

Gary: 41:47

They can leave a comment below this video or they can reach out via email Hello at the big pixel.net. Or you can get in touch with us through any one of our social media channels. Most of them are at Big pixel.

David: 41:59

Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Terrance, for joining us. It's been a lot of fun.

Terence: 42:03

Thank you. Yeah, I've enjoyed myself and I enjoyed the jokes alone.

Gary: 42:08

I enjoyed talking about design when I was allowed to. I like talking about design.

David: 42:15

Don't Don't kid yourself. We're totally cutting tire section. That we're gonna make this a lot shorter. This thing's running long. That's that. That's easy cutting right there, man. You enjoy talking about it because no one else is gonna hear it.

Gary: 42:29

The final version of this is gonna be Gary free. Yeah.

Terence: 42:33

Yeah, don't cut out the fighting. I like that.

David: 42:38

Now, that's the only reason people listen to this thing. All right. On that note, we are out of here until next week. Thank you everybody for joining us. Once again, Terrance. Thanks again for joining us this week, and we will see you guys next week. Have a go