Where Remote Work and the Slog Converge | Episode 12

In this episode of the BizDev Podcast, Gary takes over as host and has on guests Juan and Siua. The three of them start of the conversation this week with discussing John Hanke’s perspective on the Metaverse and everyday usage of AR and VR technology. From there, Gary asks Juan and Siua what its like to interact in an office space versus remote work from the perspective of an employee rather than a CEO. This leads into the discussion of the Slog from the perspective of a developer and what its like to manage those expectations. Finally they wrap up the discussion on Free Guy, Red Notice, and some exciting news about the BizDev Podcast!

Here are the links to all mentioned articles in this episode:

The Verge - John Hanke 'AR Is Where the Real Metaverse Is Going to Happen'

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David Baxter - CEO of Big Pixel

Gary Voigt - Creative Director at Big Pixel

The Podcast

David Baxter has been designing, building, and advising startups and businesses for over ten years. His passion, knowledge, and brutal honesty have helped dozens of companies get their start.

In Biz/Dev, David and award-winning Creative Director Gary Voigt talk about current events and how they affect the world of startups, entrepreneurship, software development, and culture.

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Transcript

Gary: 0:00

There you go. The joys of remote work, no ties, no collars, wrinkles, sweat pants, whatever you want. As long as you look okay, from the shoulders up on a video call, right?

Juan: 0:09

Oh, are you kidding me? I think the first client meeting I had as a freelancer, I just put in a nice shirt and I was on my underwear underneath that. I just made sure the camera was from here up.

Gary: 0:20

Because it was just, you know, a joke, or just something to say to be funny, but literally,

Juan: 0:25

I've done that a couple times. Yeah.

Siua: 0:27

My that's my job interview with David. I have a nice button on shirt with sweats underneath. Yeah, man. So the way to do

Gary: 0:35

and that's how we're gonna intro the show. Hey, everyone, welcome to biz dev podcasts, the podcast about developing your business. I am not David Baxter, your host. So you're just gonna have to stick with me. I'm Gary Voigt filling in for him. He'll be back next time. But fear not. This week, I am joined by two very special guests. And I will be relying on them pretty heavily to pick up the slack. So welcome today with me is one and Seiwa. And one is a senior developer at Big pixel and see what is our project manager. Say hello, guys. Hey, how's it going? Hey, I'm

Siua: 1:14

happy to be here.

Gary: 1:15

Wow. Definitely. That's That's great intro. Well, we'll just get into this. We have been covering some topics in the news lately related to Facebook and Apple and whatnot. The Metaverse has come up. And then of course we poke some fun at Zuckerberg for the Iceland video. But the metaverse is just back in the news again. And there is a article that we happen to see and everybody read it right guys? Yeah. Oh, yeah. All right. It's an article from Wired Magazine, and we will link it in the show notes. And this explores the metaverse with a twist, kind of combining it with AR But instead of it just being like in your home on your computer with goggles, this is kind of more of a going outside and exploring the world with the AR altered reality. Now. In the article. The first thing you're going to see is that this really takes off from Pokemon Go right. The guy who created Pokemon Go is the one interviewed.

Juan: 2:20

Yeah, John Hanke here. He originally wrote a blog post on his company website in the antic. Speaking of and I think echo pretty well the thoughts that I had about the metaverse wanted this sucker perfect talking about which is he's referencing the term from several like sci fi books. I think one of them was the one you know, something was the one they originally kind of coined it, but they, they position it kind of like a dystopian feature type of thing. While Zuckerberg is talking about how this wonderful thing that is going to save this hall, it's gonna make life better. But my understanding has always been that this means that if we were there, we kind of screwed up as a society. It's it's not like the the end goal of humanity. That means that we messed up pretty badly. So their

Gary: 3:07

version of the metaverse is more of like the replacement of an actual society.

Juan: 3:13

Yeah, I mean, if you watch Ready Player One, that's exactly what it is is fun movie, but it's kind of a depressing movies like, Oh, I'd like socks is just going on. Yeah,

Gary: 3:21

ready, player one is referenced a lot. When talking about the metaverse and what the future will hold, I guess. Now they interviewed him. I'm not going to go into the whole article, you can read it. But there was a few takeaways that I thought were very interesting. The idea of combining entertainment, creativity and education all together, inside or outside, like the idea of exploring your city and having you know, whatever the the historical monuments or buildings or anything around, like just pop up with some information if you're interested in it, or taking the creativity part and like throwing in I think he mentioned which is topical, like little animated Ghostbusters scene wrapped around a building in your city. And I guess the creativity part would be implementing kind of your own ideas into that world and pushing them out into the AR. Or then other people can kind of immerse themselves through it. What did you guys take away from the actual experience of what he wants to see and what you think it will become?

Siua: 4:32

So I think it's unavoidable right? I have kids I don't know about you guys. But this guy made Pokemon GO and I played summers of pokemon go with my kids. They're already

Gary: 4:44

Yeah, huge, crazy, huge.

Siua: 4:46

Oh, yeah. They're already doing it. AR is part of a lot of the games that the kids play in. It's just, it might be kind of weird, new to us, but it's already natural for them. So for our generation That might not be a huge deal. But going forward, they're already indoctrinated. It's just gonna keep getting more and more. I do think Zuckerberg view on it is kind of weird. It's like, he wants people to escape reality. I do like this view better, where it's more like, hey, let's bring the digital world and combine it with what's going on. I do like that view a whole lot more. And I think that one is going to be the one that's accepted by my kids a lot easier when as they get older.

Juan: 5:32

Like you said, he, they already have and Yeah, remember, when Pokemon GO came on, I spent that, you know, hours after work at 3am in a random park with my wife, just catching Pokemon, and it was fantastic. And I still play from time to time. And that is the, I think the the better version of what they're trying to do, which is Get outside still interact with people. But let me put another layer on top of that, that enhances your experience, as opposed to strapping 20 pound headset to your head. So you're looking at crappier version of what's already there.

Gary: 6:06

Yeah, when Pokemon GO came out, I remember a lot of stories were focused around kind of the point of its video game that gets you back outside and exercising some more instead of just sitting staring at a screen. They compared it to the Wii a lot like, yeah, of course, there's exercise and sports games on the Wii where you're moving your body around, but you're still inside staring at a screen. So they were, you know, touting Pokemon Go is like a revolution into yet the mixture of some sort of exercise and experience and gameplay all together. Because after

Juan: 6:40

what it's been 1820 months of being semi locked up inside, I've never been one to actually go out much. But if I'm told I can't go out. It's just a whole different thing. Like you get a little bit claustrophobic and I don't think strapping a headset to your face and not going out for eight hours a day. 40 hours a week is it's it's the future I envision.

Gary: 7:03

Yeah. Now they're also referencing when you're speaking about headsets. In this article, they are referencing like a set of glasses, again, probably similar to what the metaverse will have, it's just a matter of how, how much you'll be able to see the real world, real world versus the digital world and how clunky these things feel on your head. But you know, optimistically it would be pretty cool. They're talking about you know, can you imagine walking through your city, and you can play little, like I said before videos or movies of things happening around from, you know, like, imagine Harry Potter and his buddies flying through the city. Imagine seeing King Kong climbing up and down buildings and planes going after him. Now, these are all the references for me. But imagine places like Disneyland and what they could do with it. They wouldn't have to spend so much money creating actual physical spaces. But I'm sure they could totally optimize the AR experience and put you in a place where it's like a virtual Disneyland that's like 15 times the size and the amount of stuff that you can consume.

Juan: 8:11

He's bringing back Google Glass.

Gary: 8:14

Oh, you think it's gonna be Google Glass?

Juan: 8:17

That's the only thing I remember that people were in the Google Glass and looking in all the San Francisco hipsters with them looking all cool with a bunch of glass holes. Yes, it'd be coffee shops. So we're going back to that.

Gary: 8:30

Yeah, I don't know. It's gonna be weird. I love the idea and the optimistic viewpoint. But again, and I think this might just be from Facebook, but the other side of my brain goes immediately to how are they going to target advertising to us this way? And how bad is this going to be for our actual socializing as humans, like, it might actually hinder the experience depending on who gets their hands on monetizing it the most? Well, I

Siua: 9:00

don't know if you guys have noticed that there are people already buying, like virtual space, like companies have already bought it within Facebook's metaverse. They're renting out their space for like downtown shops where people can walk through and shop with cryptocurrency so there's a lot that's already going into it. It's it's already been planned out. So there's, there's no doubt it's going to be heavily advertised and marketed

Juan: 9:26

experience. Oh, that's great. That means I can walk down Time Square look at real advertising and fake advertising.

Gary: 9:33

It's totally Minority Report. Oh, absolutely. I'm going to run out my, my recording studio here, which is just the closet but I'm going to rent it out as a digital space with an NFT you go there. All the topics.

Siua: 9:49

Now you guys were you guys were kind of making fun of NF t's a little while ago. I actually really liked them. I think it's a great great thing.

Gary: 9:58

Okay, don't confuse us. lack of understanding and ignorance and sarcasm combined. But it's not really at we're making fun of NF TS I can't speak for David. But I can speak for myself. I I love seeing artists thrive in the NFT space. But I also hate seeing subpar garbage go for millions of dollars, just because it's a trend. You know what I mean? There's ups and downs to it. And like seeing some some Instagram star put out some JPEG of them, you know, wearing a certain outfit for 1000s of dollars. And I'm making this up. I don't have an actual reference. But

Siua: 10:34

oh, I'm sure there are. There'll be plenty we could Google it and find the buttons. But sure, along with along with NF Ts and in crypto. I mean, it's it's all gonna happen. There's no, I don't think there's any stopping this metaverse. No matter if it's a full dive type thing like Zuckerberg wants or if it's kind of like this. You know, you mentioned free Guy A while ago, if it's like that, where it's just kind of an added layer where you wear glasses, and you can explore the real world. I think, again, there's no stopping it's it's going to happen. It's just matter. Yeah, that was

Gary: 11:08

one of the coolest things in the movie free guy with thrown around such as, I guess it came out a while ago. But it just came to streaming. Just the idea of the sunglass people being the people with the altered reality, and seeing how it just layered on to the world. That was pretty cool. I love how they did it with the special effects. But so you're saying that it seems like humanity is just going virtual, no matter what, like we're going to virtual currency virtual reality. Or I'll just go Yeah, locked into a space. Eventually, it will just become batteries in the matrix.

Siua: 11:39

Well, hopefully not that far. It's already there.

Juan: 11:43

The only difference is that these people are trying to you know, bring part of it outside of your office space. Your phone, little square that you carry around. But we're pretty much there. I transact and operate mostly online. Nowadays. There's little stuff, the physical stuff that I in sounds terrible, but I need to go out to get or need to interact with and just do everything on my phone now. But if I can just throw a pair of glasses and walk around, it's sort of the same experience. Just it's forcing me to walk now. I guess.

Gary: 12:14

Yeah, I can understand that. I like AR and I like experiencing it on my phone now. And then, but I gotta admit, it's not something that I jump to or even remember is available unless I'm reminded, you know, if a certain app will be like a experience this an AR, then I'm like, Okay, I'll check it out. But if Yeah, if you were wearing glasses and going outside, and all this stuff just kind of happened.

Siua: 12:36

Hmm. So I was I was not gonna tell this, but I'll bring it up. I went on a trip with my wife, too. Niagara Falls, I'm a huge Buffalo Bills fan. So we go in the gym in December to go and watch a football game. And this is during the big Pokemon Go craze. We didn't know where to go and like what to do and like sights to see. And so my wife she pulled out Pokemon GO and you know, all the big all like the stops. They are like little I don't know, checkpoints. Like I remember that all the cool places to visit, right? Yeah, yeah. And one of them. It was like, oh, there's a random one down the street. And it was like the oldest tree in Buffalo. And we went and took a picture in front of it. And like, there are a whole bunch of little stops. And we found a bunch of parks and some outdoor monuments. And it was just all because of this, you know, this little AR app on Pokemon Go that we were able to find all this stuff. So yeah, like I said, it's if there were some sunglasses that I could wear, and go on my vacation without talking to a tour guide without, you know, me being the person that doesn't like to talk to a ton of people. If I can just go out and explore on my own and catch all those little fun facts and see these little sights. Oh, I'd be all for it.

Gary: 13:52

That does sound pretty cool. Yeah. Alright, so now, we're going to touch back on a topic we covered last episode last week for us last last episode, I guess you could say in the podcast scroll. But um, we talked about an article that was written and interviewed from the perspective of bosses and leaders about remote work and where the future of remote work is going. And we also talked about what David likes to call the slog, which is the period of time in between creating an idea and having whatever you you built, like exist, and then getting people to care about it. So I thought it would be fun from the perspective of a worker instead of a boss or an entrepreneur who has a startup to examine both of those ideas. So to go into the remote work, which everybody pretty much has been doing it for the last year and a half but a lot of us have done it for longer. And a lot of us live in thrive within the room. It space. And sometimes don't even have experiences in an office building full of people, where you're rubbing elbows with managers, and, you know, bosses, CEOs, your boss's boss, you might not be cultivating that little, I guess you could say Coffee Break talk or water cooler Chat, where you're getting to know people just on a polite level, or interacting with people that might be fans of the same sports themes or whatever, you're not really getting those relationships happening in physical space in person. But there is a way to create that culture and create those interactions, even in remote spaces. As I mentioned before, I'm joined today by Juan and Seiwa was a senior developer and C was our project manager here at Big pixel. And one has a lot of experiencing experience working as a remote developer. One is also whether he knows it or not. We tout him as pretty much the ambassador of our company culture in a remote sense. So in our Slack channels, you'll always see one, something funny, interesting and cool to say always reacts to comments always starts a conversation, and always kind of makes you feel like you're interacting with people all day, throughout the week. So one, how long have you been a strictly remote worker?

Juan: 16:27

Well, no pressure, then. I've been working remotely for honestly, five to six years now. And it's sort of happened by accident. That wasn't really the intention I had. I started freelancing out of necessity at the time. And it kind of stuck. It worked out. It was nice. I like the flexibility. And while he ran.

Gary: 16:50

Now, did you have any jobs prior to your remote work where you were interacting with other developers and we're like sitting in a cubicle. And you kind of see managers and senior devs? Like walking by? Or?

Juan: 17:03

Well, yes, and no, now here's the thing, I've only worked development remotely, the entire time I've worked remotely was when I started developing before that I was still in it. And working I like it, it helped us it's a little different, you are working in office setting, but they kind of just stick you in the dungeon in the closet. And they just if they need you. So my experience working in quote unquote, office space was I am here breathing the natural air when they need me. And then I'm sure back in the closet, and my coworker was somebody that was far less social than I was, which is saying a lot. So that was my Office experience.

Gary: 17:42

Okay, so obviously, that scenario actually sounds a little bit more dreary than remote work. It's because you have to actually go to the place, walk through other people to go to your isolated cubicle, not interact with people, then leave and drive back home to the place you would rather be.

Juan: 17:59

Yeah, pretty much. Now it's it's, that's not to say that's going to be the same experience for everybody even as an it helped us. But ya know that that was my experience. And it didn't deter me from wanting to work in office, I still wanted to do the whole office thing, like David mentioned, just know, interacting with my peers having those social connections, they're right there in the office, which is I guess why I sort of try to interact with everybody as much as I can in slot, which is where we communicate. But I still like the I keep on saying flexibility. And it's not just I can get up and lead. But it really is. I can get up and go do something else, have a breather, take a break, and then come back and continue the whole, you know, the social interaction, if you will. And I guess it's a nice blend between the two, at least for me, it is

Gary: 18:48

okay. Now see that? Have you always had office jobs prior to this one? Or have you been working in a remote capacity for a little bit longer than?

Siua: 18:59

So? Yeah, so I've been working remotely for about 10 years now. For for a couple companies. My only real Office experience. I was a firefighter, believe it or not in another life, and that was like my office time in the firehouse. After that I got into program management and operations. And I've always been managing remote sales teams. And so I would just it was more I would travel once a quarter to go check in on these different remote sales teams and things like that. But it's it's been worked from home because I told him I didn't want to travel too much and they said okay, and so I've just been working from home which has been great. I can't imagine going into an office I know a lot of people are fighting the going back now that COVID kind of over. But I can't imagine going in in not like running downstairs to go snacks and lunch or to take a nap when I'm over overworked and tired and I can't imagine going to Alaska. So I don't think that was in my, my deck of cards.

Gary: 20:04

Now you mentioned having kids, I have kids, David have has kids and big pixel as a company. We're a US based company that hires us based employees. But we are at the moment, 100% remote. We all do you have experience remote, some of us have Office experience. And like you said, a lot of people are kind of fighting the going back to work thing. The reason I brought up the kids is, I can tell you, prior to working remote 100% of the time, I did work in an office, and I did work in, you know, a cubicle in a space of other designers, and then design managers. And then salespeople, sales managers, leading all the way up to the CEO, literally, my desk was 35 feet from the, you know, the doors to the CEO of the company. And I did have those relationships, I did get to walk by and talk about stuff like surfing and skateboarding was actually a topic that I would share with the CEO of the company, because he was interested in it. Now, there's two avenues to take this little point down the first avenue is I started working from home while I was working at that business, when they started scaling back. So I found the opportunity to not have to go in work from home and actually do things like take my kids to school, pick them up from school, I would be available if for some reason, they, you know, got sick and had to go to the doctor, they had to stay home that day. Or if I had to run out and do a quick errand during the day, instead of waiting till I got home after like 7pm to try to fit that in after dinner, or whatever. And very quickly, I became very comfortable with working from home. So the kid factor and the flexibility factor that you brought up on definitely a plus the relationship factor of being in an office and working around your peers, there was a plus. But I would say in my experience, that plus was not beneficial to me directly. And I bring this up because the article that we talked about last week, the CEO for Price Waterhouse basically said that the only way you progress in business, the only way that you can get better. And the only way you're going to get promoted is by rubbing shoulders with your peers and your seniors and building a relationship. So I'm here to say it did not work that way for me. Because the industry I was in, I had great relationships with everybody above me. And a lot of the people that were either at my same level were the people, I don't like seeing anybody was below me, I would just say people in different positions. So you would think that having a great relationship with the sales team, the management and the CEO, might help my career progress forward as senior designer for the marketing division of this media company. But it didn't. And it didn't because bigger companies like that. They don't make decisions based on your personality or personal relationships, they make decisions based on a spreadsheet. So when the company started scaling back, they look at numbers, they start making projections, they started making cuts, it didn't matter how cool I was with my manager, or the CEO, it just made it harder for them to actually, you know, cut people, but it didn't save anybody shops.

Juan: 23:33

You bring up a good point that it's something that I've thought about often when David was speaking the previous conversation with regards, you know, rubbing shoulders with some in the elevator, this or that. It's all sounds like kind of like very magical. But it has to happen out of pure luck. Versus now I am just a Slack message away from booking David's not something if I want to tell him Hey, dude, I think you should pay me more. I can just send the message that hey, you should pay me more. That's not something I can necessarily do in that office space. That's something I can walk into my boss's office is not going to say hey, you got a minute to you know, talk shop. Probably gonna kick me out. Yeah, sometimes the wait for that magical lucky moment. I just can reach out to my peers directly and, you know, set up a Zoom, zoom call and look at them in the face, even if it's behind a screen and have that conversation with that.

Gary: 24:25

And so in a way you can take that awkward barrier down.

Juan: 24:28

Yeah, it does. It does because it's it's it's a lot of times, especially now that we're not even using Zoom. We're using huddles on Slack. It's just a click and we are talking and there is no chit chat. There's no motion, no small talk to try to you know, ease into the conversation. We just jump into it. It doesn't feel uncomfortable. It just feels natural. Just pick up a conversation.

Gary: 24:51

And I can say for sure. At Big pixel, working remote with the crew with everybody that works at Big pixel. There is Really no feeling of a barrier between anybody, not from my side and not from what I've heard from anybody else, just paying someone slack and starting to huddle, like you said, it almost cultivates where we want to go with the teamwork aspect of it. And it does help kind of break down that little awkward wall, like you said, if you're speaking to, as you, you as a senior designer, if we have a contractor that's coming in on a project, who needs your help, and they just ping you on Slack? And I've seen this happen, you instantly reach back out to them there to help. Say, Yeah, whatever, click on a huddle dude was just talking about it, pull up your screen, we'll walk through it. That seems a little bit more instant than if you were in an office space, you're like, Oh, well, that guy's in the corner office. I know, I got this problem, he probably expects me to already know how to solve this problem. So I don't want to bug him with it. Is he? What is he gonna say, you know, how is he gonna feel that deliberation, like in your head is happening and take wasting all that time anyway. So I do like, you're able to just kind of ping people with no hesitation.

Siua: 26:07

I like it too. Because kinda like what you're saying. One is the poster child of big pixel, like, you know, knowing that he's, yeah, the culture came, there we go. So I like it, because it's a deliberate thing. Now, you we're not waiting for fates designed to be in the elevator with the boss at the same time with no one else. So I can pitch my business idea or my changes or anything like that. It's, it really is, you know, someone sends a message, you react to it, you know, with the little emojis or you add a comment. But I think there's more opportunities to make yourself visible to the higher ups in in bigger organizations. And because of your presence in Slack, like your name keeps popping up over and over. I do think it's more deliberate on your end. And I think it's a lot easier, like what we were talking about just to make ourselves noticed.

Juan: 27:02

And I want to say that a lot of the the folks that are pushing for going back to the office, maybe circling back from people that have just started working remotely. I know for them is not so much that the office setting provides a lot of opportunities that they would think that otherwise wouldn't happen being at home. But it's also that it's it's hard for a lot of folks to separate home from work. And just the the the ability to get up, drive and go somewhere. And you can set yourself mentally and physically in a space where you know, you're there to make stuff, work on something and going back home, you can decompress, you can let that go. It's harder, it's harder when you're at home. It's not something that you can easily turn off I for one can sit on the couch in the room an hour afterwards, and still thinking about the same thing I was doing and how we're good.

Gary: 27:56

And being so close to your computer. It's like well, I'm just gonna try that real quick. Let me go. Let me just make that change. Let me do that. Yes, almost every day. If you're pushing out what you do, and you're right there where you do it. Yeah, you can definitely kind of overlong some hours that way.

Siua: 28:14

Yeah, well, and I actually got a bunch of messages last night on slack at like three in the morning from devs working, just answering questions. And I know

Gary: 28:23

you're in a different time zone. So they intentionally tried to wake you up.

Siua: 28:27

But that's true. And I wasn't even mad at it at all, either. It's just, you know, I kind of like it. Because when you're thinking late at night, and you're like, Oh, I just realized this solves my problem, you know, a quick Slack message way. And then when I get into work, I can respond to it like, okay, great. Let's do this instead, you know, let's pivot here. I think it's nice to be able to just work when my brain is able to work, you know, instead of just pushing out eight solid hours in the office.

Gary: 28:56

And I can say one and I have had that exact interaction. I don't know what time at night or whatever. But it's definitely been like an after hours. Oh, check this out. I figured out how to do this, or Oh, do you think this will work? And whether he actually likes it or not? His responses on Slack were very kind and very helpful. So yeah, it didn't feel like I was annoying him.

Juan: 29:17

See what brings up a very good point. It's something that I've thought about, and I haven't really put into words until you did, which is if I leave the office space, and I go home, and I just solved my issue, I'm stuck with that until the next morning. I can't get out of my head. And at least for me, personally, that's something that is going to keep you up at night, I'm going to think about I'm gonna dream about I'm gonna be coding at night. But if if I have my my office four steps away, I can really get up, write it down, or at least put a note there so I can remember next time next morning when I wake up and start coding. I can get that out of my head. I can finally be free of that. That that's that thing that's keeping me preoccupied and now I can actually have lots at home that can be at three in the morning. And maybe it's something that just now at least was like I can schedule a message to go up tomorrow morning. But now it's out. And I had that opportunity, which to some people, it's Oh, no, that sounds awful. Why would you want to work, you know, throughout all of your afternoon, well, it's not so much that I want to is that I need to get it up. And I have that opportunity, which I like,

Gary: 30:21

yeah, in our industry is different than others. I mean, obviously, when you're in the tech space, or in the product development, software development, custom software, like pretty much everybody that's gonna work in an agency or a company or a team like that. They're doing it because it is who they are, they just involve themselves 24 hours a day, whether it's on work projects, home projects, or just thinking about the space. This is going to lead into what we talked about last week as the slog, which is the time after you create a product or you bring your idea to life, you build that one thing that you think is, you know, going to be your dream come true, you're very passionate about it. And you have two choices. It's either wait for something to happen or make people care. And the only real application to be successful here is to make people care. And that amount of time after it's built to people care. That hard work that goes into that time, is what we call the slog. So David spoke a lot about what's needed from the startup, the either the entrepreneur or the stakeholders in that product, that business, that idea, and what they need to do. I wanted to kind of get a perspective from as a company, as software developers, as a designer, like myself, or whatever, what we do to assist in that space in between v1, initial launch. And then any little changes we make are things that we do between then and making people care. And I will say, marketing and the entrepreneur, or the people responsible for the product, their efforts put forth in marketing and getting the word out, and their passion behind it talking to, you know, networking with their peers, or just trying to put some sort of advertising out there getting an audience on social media, doing all that, that that's heavily on their shoulders. But what do we do when they start getting feedback from people that are interested in the idea, but have some suggestions, they take it to heart, and they see that maybe, okay, if we pivot here, alter this, change that slightly, it's still the same idea, but it's going to go a different direction, maybe they're finding more of a niche audience, that's going to help benefit? How would you tout the flexibility between v1, and then possibly v2, v3? And how nimble Do you think our company or a small product design agency can be between that in the slog,

Juan: 33:13

I think from a development perspective, that's a it's kind of straightforward. In this applies to pretty much any project that involves code, you always start off thinking it's gonna be something small, so simple. It is never smaller, simple, you always have an idea, you always have something you want to add to it a feature new optimization, it's a never ending struggle. But then mining, the, what you want to do is you want to keep things scalable. And I know it's kind of like a dumb term, at least in my space, where scale

Gary: 33:45

word but it's, it's a very important buzzword. It is.

Juan: 33:49

And I always advocate for that, when we're talking shop with with a new client with a project that we're redesigning, rewriting, or just starting from scratch is that I want to take the extra time right at the beginning to build things a little bit more fortified. So I know that if I want to throw things on top of it, so to say, I can do that. And a good example comes to mind is one of our clients that sells kids book. And that project started very, very small, at least in the spec when we first got it year and a half. And that is by no means the same pocket. It's not the same application, it's 10 times bigger. And the only reason we've been able to scale it so easily. But quote unquote, easily. It's because I did the best I could fix the help of whatever other developers Jonathan to make the foundation solid enough that we can build on top of it. And we have continuously optimize the application improved it, but we've been, at least me because I'm working on it. I've been able to do it very easily, at least easier than I can with a lot of the other topics that have legacy baggage behind it. And I think being able to do that from beginning you know, having the idea that you want to build something For the future, at least in the development perspective, allows a client to be able to say, You know what we're pivoting, you got a new direction, we got a lot of client feedback, we know where the business is going, let's drop that, let's shift here, let's go ramp up in that direction, if I'm sure a designer is going to take their time, and they're going to have the conversation about how this is going to look and how, you know the caveats with this, and that, but once that preview picture is built, the developer has to be able to say, I could drop that and pick up where you told me to go with not taking without taking three weeks, four weeks, just to wrap up, which can't be the case, at least from my side of the fence. That's, that's what comes to mind. Making sure our infrastructure is skilled.

Gary: 35:42

So picking out the right architecture, the right in, I guess, you could say codebase, or language to kind of benefit the project, not just for where it is, but where you can see it going. Yeah, exactly. So our version of the slog is kind of preparation, and foresight. Knowing that it's coming, knowing that it's going to change, get authored, build, scale, whatever in that way. Some projects that we take on that or legacy projects, where it was already built by someone else with an older code base, but didn't really take off, like the project is done. Their idea came to life, but it didn't really take off. But now they're gonna pivot, say they went, you know, from whoever voted the first in the first place to us to kind of make those changes make that pivot, that part of the slog for us is probably a lot harder to pick up an older legacy product or a different code base or someone else's, you know, work, and then try to take that foundation and scale it forward in that situation. What what do we do as a best practice in our company? I know it's not, it doesn't make sense to rewrite the entire thing. Just because we have newer technology newer code, it probably makes more sense to try to integrate as much as you can, and then slowly, revise as you build it does that sound accurate?

Juan: 37:13

I'm probably gonna get a lot of flack from other devs. But I'm always a, let's rewrite first, if we can, otherwise, let's just build on top of it pick up wherever the last team left off.

Gary: 37:23

And that's a dev dream project right there. But the same thing, like a designer will be like, oh, yeah, this looks great. I'm going to do it all over, I'm going to start fresh, and I'm gonna change everything because I have a different vision. But we also have to take in the reality that the person already spent money getting this thing built. Absolutely, they've already created their dream is just not performing the way they expected. So now they have to try to make little pivots and changes because they are pushing it, they are making people care enough people to where they know these little alterations will even get more people to care.

Juan: 37:57

And it's not a matter of like, let's pick up, we have a project a pretty massive project that we will pick up on it. And it's not in thought that type of project, we're going to say, well, the company is changing direction, let's just burn everything to the ground start from scratch. Absolutely. Not even smart enough. Sure. But mostly it's if it's a section of the app, and I don't know, they, like David had mentioned before they want to build LinkedIn into the the application. That's, that's something that that's not the direction that they want to take anymore, that's probably a part of the app that involves too many things that have aren't related to that feature that we can probably just jank off, it will serve us better moving forward. It's hard to put it into, you know, imagining it. But there's always at least one part of an application one set of the code that you can definitely trash and start from scratch without having to necessarily waste time and effort. Because they're oftentimes which is building on top of legacy code, that is just going to come back and bite you in the butt, three years, two years, three weeks down the line. And if He can just avoid that, because he know is going to happen, just do it. Just drop that start from scratch, start better this time. It's not the whole thing, but just a part of it.

Gary: 39:12

To quote David, who quoted Jonathan, who quoted somebody. So this is my Michael Scott, quoting Wayne Gretzky, Michael Scott moment. And I might not even be 100% accurate here. But I believe David said, we reserve the right to get smarter, and do better. So I like that in that period of time, in that period of time, if we do see a way to change or alter that framework, so that it will be built better and more scalable, going forward or we see something that maybe we could change, you know, even deeper down that framework pipeline, the foundation that will help you know, it is beneficial to the client in the long run. It might take a little bit more time it might take a little bit more money. Maybe another sprint or two added to that. But if that's going to actually save hassle in the future and make the product better, of course, that's what we let David convince him that that's necessary. As it comes in, let's see what as a project manager, like dealing with this stuff, this. I'm not a project manager, and I don't have a huge, I guess, understanding of everything you do, but I know it is definitely more than I know and needed far more than I can understand. But in talking to clients, and in hearing them share their their ideas and their passion for what they're doing. And then also being the intermediary between the clients and the sales and the dev, not just in our company, but just in your experience in general. Is that a tough situation navigate? Or is that something where you look forward to trying to tell the client like, look, this is something we can do for you, it's going to be a little bit more, this is going to change, but ultimately, the end result is going to benefit you more?

Siua: 41:05

Yeah, so the I guess, it's, I wouldn't say it's a hard thing to do. I have learned over the years to take my emotion out of it. Because it's and, you know, as I was listening to the podcast last week, talking about the slog, and getting other people to care, as a project manager, I really do have to pull back my emotions from the client and from, you know, my devs and just be like, okay, hey, this is your baby. My job is to organize it, to figure out what exactly you want, and go translate that to the devs. So they can put it together.

Gary: 41:37

Okay, so this is a perspective that I was not aware of. So I'm interested to hear more about this.

Siua: 41:42

Yeah. And we have, we have a big client, right now that is asking for my opinions on how they should set their self or themselves up. And I fired back, I said, Look, this is not on me, I don't want to make this decision. Come back to me, when you have your decision, I want you to know, we're getting to a point where it's going to push back our development, if I don't get a response soon. And I say it nicely. And we're getting along really well. But I try and take myself out of the decision making and just, hey, I'm planning it for you, I'm gonna lay it out. And just we're gonna make what you want happen. But I can't be a part of your decision making. Like, this is your thing. If you don't like it, we have to change it later on. Fantastic. I'm happy to go tell them to change it later. But yeah, I pulled myself out of it. Because as a project manager, it's just, I don't want to be the person in charge of, I guess, deciding your company's future, if that makes any sense. That's that is not my that is not my wheelhouse. I'm just here to help organize people.

Gary: 42:44

So once that decision is made, though, in creating that roadmap to how it gets made from development to them, or whatever, that's Oh,

Siua: 42:52

yeah. That's more, that's more of what I will do. Yeah.

Gary: 42:57

You've experienced a lot of that time in between that slog time in between, yes. Is it tough relaying information between the devs in the in the client, if there is like a lag in what the client might see as progress versus it's just writing code takes time writing software takes time, making it better takes time. And sometimes, I guess, their excitement, their anticipation, or whatever they think like, or their perception of what should be easy is totally not the case. And you have to navigate that between the actual real work being done and then telling the client what's being done and how that actually is a good thing.

Siua: 43:44

Yeah, exactly. So I'll give you an example. We were on a project. I don't, I don't think one is the one going to do this. But they told me to add a button. And they're like, oh, no, it'll be real quick. Just add this button. I had to tell him, I was like, I don't think you understand, like, adding a button is gonna take 20 hours. You know, like, Are you sure this is something you want us to do is add this button, we could do it this way. And I just present all options. And you know, sometimes people think it's an easy thing.

Gary: 44:15

But it's, I think it's a rectangle on a page. They don't understand that. What goes on after you click that button takes more than just putting a rectangle on a page,

Juan: 44:24

wherever I'll go right now and that toggle it has had me had a conversation for people. And there's six different things that need to happen in concert for it to work.

Gary: 44:33

There's just one toggle switch one to function correctly.

Siua: 44:38

Yeah, so it's, it's I think a lot of it is just relating expectations and kind of getting them to be realistic and just you know, this does take time. My devs are happy to do it. I mean, if you want us to we will do it, but it's gonna take time and it's just kind of a balancing act as a as a project manager,

Gary: 44:56

managing expectations. previous episode Getting back to the topic, the remote work thing from our perspective, from a developer's perspective and a project managers perspective, extremely beneficial, and they love it works great. Never want to go into an office. That seems like a good fit for our people in our industry in our company. So that works out. And as far as the slog is concerned, whether you're the entrepreneur, the main person in the startup, the person with the idea, it happens on every end every aspect of that idea from conception to completion. So you're not going through it alone. And shameless plug big pixel is here to help, you

Juan: 45:43

know, it's important to bring up that we all want to make sure this thing succeeds. from the design perspective, from the organization perfected perspective with the people actually right and go for it to work. None of us want to do a job or that none of us want this to make difficult for anybody. Because if it doesn't work out for you, the client, it doesn't work out for us.

Gary: 46:03

Yeah, it is our job to facilitate the best outcome for you. And we do that by actually internalizing some of the passion that you have heard that product as well.

Juan: 46:14

With enough time, this becomes our baby, too. Exactly.

Gary: 46:17

Exactly. So earlier, I wanted to talk about something you guys brought up earlier. Very important. You were talking about Pokemon GO and AR and free guy. So the movie free guy with Ryan Reynolds, where he's kind of like the what is the the NPC the non playable character in like a video game reality? But then he puts on the sunglasses like the AR glasses that the characters were, and then they can see everything around them. Have you guys seen that movie?

Juan: 46:48

I've seen enough distributors?

Siua: 46:51

I have not, but I do know, I know the show enough. I've saw enough previews. And I know what you're talking about. Yeah.

Gary: 46:57

Have you seen the other Ryan Reynolds movie? It seems like Ryan Reynolds weekend the podcast, the new one with the rock thread notice? No, either? No. Not at all. Wow, this is awkward. Okay. Well, I will say David's a huge fan of the rock. Right. And I'm a fan of Ryan Reynolds. I like his sarcasm in his quick little comments. And if you guys do have Netflix, and you do have time, maybe coming up over Thanksgiving, and you want to watch it, I didn't finish it yet. So I don't know how great it is. But I can tell you the first half is pretty funny. There's a lot of parts where Ryan Reynolds is just picking on the rock and it just made me want to laugh at David. So which we will have David back next episode. And made you want to laugh at

Juan: 47:45

David, are you saying that the rock or David looks like the rock?

Gary: 47:49

I can see when Ryan Reynolds makes fun of the rock. It makes me think that David is getting offended. So that makes me happy. Oh, no, there's just comments you make that's pretty funny. Well, we've actually covered quite a bit today. So we'll probably wrap it up. I just wanted to mention a few things. We did not have any recent questions lately a little disappointed in you guys. Not you do not want to Siva, just you know all four of our listeners. And I'm hoping that maybe one of you will have any questions or comments or even snide remarks. Email us Hello at the big pixel dotnet. And if it's something that we can talk about, if it's something you're interested in, or want us to cover, or it's if it's a topic we could bring up that might help, you know, relate information between design development, product design, software design, and startups, entrepreneurs, we'd love to cover it. So hit us up at Hello at the big pixel dotnet. And then just before we go, just to toot our own horn, were super famous now guys are you might not know this, you know, and, you know, I'm not one to brag, but you might not know we hit just past 200 downloads. So no, this is this is where you put the applause in the background. So we're trucking along. We're happy about that.

Siua: 49:22

Well, yeah, Episode 12 It's a pretty good one. That's that's pretty big, man.

Gary: 49:26

Well, thanks to you guys. Seriously, thank you guys for being here for helping me out today. We'll have David back next time. And until then, see you guys later.