The Sounding Line
The Sounding Line
Economic Risks and Value of Coastal Fisheries
Dr. Kanae Tokunaga (Host) is an Associate Research Scientist in coastal and marine economics at GMRI. In this conversation we're going to hear from two researchers, Dr. Hiroe Ishihara, Associate Professor at the Graduate School of Frontier Sciences at the University of Tokyo and Dr. Robert Blasiak, Researcher at the Stockholm Resilience Center. Dr. Tokunaga’s lab engages in research to describe how human communities at the individual and community level respond to changes in natural environments such as climate change and natural disasters, as well as human systems such as urbanization and policy changes. She collaborates with Dr. Ishishara on research related to coastal fisheries and with Dr. Blasiak on a synthesis project to describe ocean economy risks.
Host:
Kanae Tokunaga, Associate Research Scientist in Coastal and Marine Resource Economics
Guests:
Robert Blasiak, Researcher at the Stockholm Resilience Center
Hiroe Ishihara, Associate Professor at the Graduate School of Frontier Sciences at the University of Tokyo.
You're listening to the sounding line from the Gulf of Maine Research Institute.
Kanae Tokunaga:I'm Kanae Tokunaga, associate research scientist in coastal and marine economics at GMRI. Thanks for joining us. In today's conversation, we're going to hear from two researchers that I work with Hiroe Ishihara is an associate professor at the Graduate School of Frontier Sciences at the University of Tokyo. And Robert Blasiak is a researcher at the Stockholm Resilience Center. My lab is engaged in research to describe how human communities at the individual and community level respond to changes in natural environments such as climate change and natural disasters, as well as human systems such as urbanization and policy changes. I work with Hiroe on research related to coastal fisheries. And I work with Robert on a synthesis project to describe ocean economy risks. Let's take a listen to our conversation. We will start by hearing Robert talk about sustainable seafood.
Robert Blasiak:Yeah, well with large seafood companies, I mean, you kind of have to zoom out a bit more. I mean, I really liked what Hiroe was saying about working with local fishers, because they're, they have a very close relationship with the with the ocean around them, maybe they've been fishing in the same area of regeneration. So there's, there's that knowledge and that connection to place. But when you talk with a seafood Corporation, what sort of person is that it's not a person anymore, how can they have a connection to a place, but at the same time, the long term viability of any of these companies, it really depends on taking care of ocean resources, it's I mean, fisheries, it's the only major piece of the global food system where we're still basically foraging for food, you know, it just grows itself and you go and collect it. So it's, it's this tremendous resource. But at the same time, it has boundaries, and it has limits. And so we're really running up against those. I mean, you hear a lot about overfished fish populations, but there aren't a lot of new ones to discover, either. So when you talk with the seafood corporations, they realize they're at this limit. So now, there's this new mindset. And it's one we're trying to feed of being stewards of the ocean, rather than just exploiting the ocean, because they're seeing it in a way that other industries maybe haven't yet, because their whole operations depend on that. If they fish everything this year, just scoop up everything out of the ocean, there won't be a next year, right. So when you start talking with these big corporations about trying to elevate that vision beyond the next year or two, and to think longer term, and certifications, or maybe some pieces, that puzzle, but certifications aren't a panacea. They don't fix everything, even something like the Marine Stewardship Council, which is maybe the most familiar label for most people. It doesn't have really much to do with, with social values. So a lot of people are very worried about labor abuse, and modern slavery and supply chains. The MSE doesn't really focus on that that much. So if you're, if you're concerned about that, that that sticker on your fish isn't going to really tick that box. And a lot of packages of fish won't have anything on it. Right? So yeah, it's one of these things. Also, when you talk with companies that are this big in a consolidated industry, they also are all influenced by what the bad apples in the group are doing. So if there's some, some company that's really terrible, then they're going to be on the front page of The New York Times or in The Guardian, doing some terrible thing. And then the whole industry looks bad, not just that company. So there's also an interest in what we call pre competitive collaboration. So starting to work together, you're all competitors. You're all competing for market share. You're all competing for consumers, for retailers, everything else. But there's some issues that are bigger than you. And some of those things like illegal fishing, or modern slavery, or improper use of antibiotics, which is creating antimicrobial resistance. That's becoming a major planetary threat. And these are the sorts of issues that see bosses working on. So yeah, I totally agree with a Hiroe, certifications, it doesn't fix everything, but it's something really interesting something to look at into the thing to try to understand. And in some contexts, I think it can be a very positive thing also.
Kanae Tokunaga:I also work with fishermen at the very really personal level. And then you know, many of them are really proud about their vision practice. They have great ecological knowledge. They know a lot about the species where they can catch and they know a lot about the ocean. It's just many fishermen that I interact, interact with, they basically grew up fishing. So it's just like their second nature, they can see the ocean current just by looking at the ocean. And then by that they can tell a lot of things. So that kind of, that's something that really interests me about was, you know, studying fisheries in fishermen, fisherwoman, fisher folks. And I kind of know curious Hiroe. So you you work with fishermen at a personal level, like I do, too. And you also work on this certification scheme that is a little bit more high level. How are those two connected? So? Is there do you, Do you see that the supply chain system? is working? Is a supply chain system in a kind of seamless way in a way that that kind of the stewardship that fisherman has is maintained all out throughout the supply chain? Or are there different kinds of supply chain?
Hiroe Ishihara:So like, for me, I think that the main issue that the whole supply chain seafood supply chain, at least looking at Japanese seafood market is that it's it's very long and complex. So I think for the consumer, it's quite difficult to understand what is going on in the sea, and how you know, how the fish that they buy in a supermarket is caught and like what has been really happening in the sea. So I think one of the I wouldn't say this as a panacea, but I think one of the ways we need to work is trying to shorten some of the supply chain, or try to convey the information that that, you know, not just the fish itself or label itself, but like, try to convey other informations that how it's been called. And like, what, why is it important to buy a certain fish that is caught in a certain manner. So I think that's something that has not been done. And I think, at least in Japan, lot of people, we have a, you know, a long tradition of eating fish. So a lot of people do care about fish. But it's not that they care about sustainability, but at least they care about quality. And I think if we can, you know, try to kind of convey that kind of information to the consumers, I think it is possible, I don't think it's possible to convince all the consumers in Japan, but I think there are, you know, certain consumers who are very interested in ethical consumption, as well as getting good quality, you know, fish as well. So I think one of the ways is to really shorten the supply chain and try to. So in that sense, I'm very much interested in what is going on in U.S in terms of community fisheries movement, and those kinds of things. I'm very much interested in, you know, knowing about that, as well.
Kanae Tokunaga:You work on diverse topics, but also you work in kind of diverse environment, you work with international, multicultural setting, and then also, you work with policymakers, as well as industry stakeholders, as well as other academics. How does cross cultural, you know, not only thinking about kind of differences in where you're from, but also thinking in terms of the work setting, as Adamic or as, you know, working with stakeholders who are in the business culture, or where, you know, people who are in the policy kind of world? How does close cross cultural collaboration play a role in your work?
Hiroe Ishihara:For me? Well, I think the most important thing is to try to understand the person you're trying to convince, or to converse with, where they're coming from, what kind of set of frameworks that they have in terms of understanding and where they are, you know, why does saying certain things and that's where all my conversations thought, and I tried to understand their way of understanding I think that's because I'm trained as anthropologists and sociologists, so that's what I do, but like I like to observe and try to understand how people, the way people think. And I think that gives me a way to have a conversation or convince someone to understand different ideas as well. So I think that's, and I think that's what really interests me as a researcher. So like, I start with a curiosity of why people say certain things and try to understand them. So for me, I don't think, yeah, there's a, you know, yeah, they are. I mean, like, I think each you know, as a researcher, I have one culture are one way of understanding and stakeholders, fisherman and you know, different stakeholders have different way of understanding. So I, I think those are the things that I try to do.
Robert Blasiak:I mean, it's easy to go after Hiroe, because I can just agree with most of it. But I, I think curiosity is a great kind of guiding light for being a researcher. If you're curious about your work and curious about what other people think about it, then you're always going to have fun, and it's always going to be interesting. I think one of the things that's really become, it's been a really positive surprise for me over the past few years, as I've engaged with more people from different areas is that, yeah, there's diversity everywhere. I mean, when you think of big multinational corporations, I think most people, they immediately have a trigger reaction that they're terrible. They're wrecking the earth, why would we deal with them. But as soon as you start talking with someone from a corporation, you realize that every person you meet from that organization, they're going to have a different viewpoint, there's variation among all of them. It's the same with politicians, it's easy to hate politicians until you start talking to them. And then you realize they're people just like you. And there's diversity in every group. So I Yeah, that makes it endlessly fascinating. And I think that it also it's a reminder of just how easy it is to have kind of stereotypes and prejudice is that this group will say this, and this group is motivated by that. And that's it. It's always more complicated, and that keeps it interesting. Yeah, I mean, it's everyone always says, Try to have an open mind. Try not to be prejudiced. It's easier said than done. But it's a really good thing to practice. And it's, I think it gives you a really positive place if you can do it.
Kanae Tokunaga:That was Robert Blasiak, researcher at the Stockholm Resilience Center, and Hiroe Ishihara and associate professor at the Graduate School of Frontier Sciences at the University of Tokyo. I'm Kanae Tokunaga, Associate Research Scientist in coastal and marine economics at the Gulf of Maine Research Institute.
Narrator:The sounding line is a production of the Gulf of Maine Research Institute, and you can find more episodes and read more about our work at gmri.org. Thanks for listening.