Welcome to Digital Podcaster. My name is Dylan Schmidt. And today I've got a another exciting conversation, a podcast coaching conversation, this time with a man named red Kaman who has a podcast called caiman cast, where he interviews people in all different walks of life, for example, and you'll know what I mean here when you hear my conversation with red. But he had the world's fastest talker on his podcast, he had an animator from Tiny Toons, Tiny Toons, Toon Town to town. On his podcast, he has people from all over. And one of the things he had written to me about is finding the best place to promote his podcast and dealing with the the struggle of growing an audience. So in the beginning of the episode, you'll hear me talk about some goals that he has with the podcasts and getting clear on those. And really the takeaway from this episode, which is not what I thought it was going to be going into it, that was going to be more about building an audience. I guess I could see how it's connected. Really, the conversation ended up evolving more to branding, in creating a cult like following. So I think you're going to enjoy this one. It is different than I've had on my podcast in the past. But I really enjoyed the conversation because it was so different. So I invite you to dive in with an open mind. Read is a truly a visionary. He's got. He's He's super creative. And I think you're gonna really enjoy it. So check it out. My conversation with red came in of caiman cast Well, thank you for coming on the podcast today Read. Read came in? I said, Yes. I just asked you that. And I in my head. It has called came in cast. How long have you been podcasting for? Um, it's actually a very interesting story, because I actually started another podcast previously back in like 2017. And my biggest thing is like, I'm a filmmaker. I'm an animator. And I want to sort of build an audience. I also sort of like, there's a documentary back in 2002. It's called dreams on spec. And you they follow these three different screenwriters. And they all go do this different thing. And you're like, what, what happened to those guys? What happened to him? You know, and it was weird, because that was the first time I really wanted to do social media, cuz I was like, Where did these guys go? You know, it wasn't like, let me sell you this let me do but it was just a curiosity. And so for for the longest time, I podcasting thing has been about curiosity and feeding into that. And I did I did like a film review thing. And it didn't really work out because I wasn't doing it for the right reasons. But now, you know, I just want to talk to people you know about interesting things. It was really cool, because that documentary I watched I actually got one of those guys onto the podcast, and we're just talking about stuff on gaming cast the on camera cast. Yes. That's awesome. Yeah. How was your I have to ask real quick. You mentioned how, how did you get them on your podcast? What was the net? Like? I believe what what was the way I did it? I went, you know what I did? I got a free trial. The IMDb Pro. Oh, nice. And then I Googled it. And then I went on the website, and I went through his manager. It was manager. I went through him. So super smart. Yeah. That's super smart. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. And thank you for sharing that because it's funny. I've actually heard a little bit. I'm not a big movie guy. Like I appreciate the art of them. But I've heard a little bit and I live in Los Angeles. In what city are you in? Right now? I'm in Texas, North Texas, like outside of Dallas? Yeah. Nice. Yeah, like actually being in Los Angeles people. I heard mention of IMDb Pro and like features and I think you just like shared a one of those tips that can be used for good or evil. Do you like the TV show The Walking Dead? I've never seen it, but I like the idea of it. Well, the guy, the guy who created it tried to sue me. Oh, wow. Yeah. So I just thank you. Thank you. No, I don't, I don't know. It's a zombie thing you tried to sue for? Well, that's a whole other story. Um, I came up with a graphic novel back in 2018. And it was about a princess like a medieval Lord of the Rings kind of thing, right? But her uncle gives her like modern weapons and she uses it to defend her castle. So I had my friend, Tim Spiro, he did the art. We did all this stuff. We were getting ready to do the crowdfunding and we got all the copyrights we got all the website everything was built up. And then it was called King firepower. Right. So I was like, let me register copyrights. Let me get all that done. And then we get a cease and desist from him because I guess he had a comic book called fight firepower find that you had, um, because I filed it directly through the copyright office. And there was like, there's like a 90 day period where it's like you can if anybody objects, please speak now or forever hold your peace. Yeah, he got there and they 89 or whatever, stopped the whole thing. Oh, geez. So back to square one with me. So that's okay. She's that's, that's it. I've never heard that happening. And that's fascinating. The Walking Dead guy. Yeah. That's crazy. So with came in cast? When I was looking at it, it's been going pretty regular. It sounds like it seems like what I looked at when you've been publishing it. Can you fill me on on like, just how it's been going? Like, the trials, the tribulations like, what's, what have you loved? And what have you not loved? Well, let me let me start off with the mission statement in a way. Right now. I have an animation project that I'm working on. The original plan was supposed to publish the graphic novel than work on animation, right. But the lawsuit kind of goofed everything up. So but right now I have an animation project. And the original plan was I wanted to sort of build an audience of like minded interests, or just just as networking just to meet people, you know, because I was working so much on this animation project. So the animation project is called antimatter penguin. Do you are you familiar with antimatter propulsion? I can't say I am. No, I mean, it's okay. It's okay. CERN. Is that the certain thing? It's not? It's not certain. But this is this is what happened. So Peter Thiel, he's Elon Musk's second in command guy, right? Like he's not second, but he's he's Elon Musk friend, right? Yeah. The he owns. He's a billionaire. He owns a lab called breakout labs, and they have bomb shelters where they use antimatter propulsion. It's this theoretical technology they're working on where you can get to Mars in a matter of like weeks that that was what instead of doing a year to get to Mars, they do it in a matter of weeks. Right. So, and one of the things about anti matter is that antimatter is actually in bananas. So but very, very miniscule, but they're in bananas. So I had this little idea about, you know, Jupiter, the moons are made out of ice. So I said, What if there was like a little tribe of penguins that lived off of one of these moons on Jupiter? And what if they tried to come to earth and things happen, and they have to get back to Earth and do all these different things that became antimatter penguin. So for the longest time, it's something I've had, it was a dream I've had for a very long time. So I'm not I'm not an animator. I'm a storyteller. I'm a filmmaker. Right? But intimate anti-matter either. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I decided, like, I can move on. I can't. Yeah, but I was like, as long as if there is some sort of technology that can make like lips smooth with animation. I'm going to do this. And lo and behold, there is a new, there's a whole bunch of different technologies that can make this stuff happen. So Mike, we got to make this work. Yeah. So in terms of like, the podcast is really a secret commercial toward that. Gotcha. In a way. Yeah. It became its own thing. That's what it started as. So it's sort of my way of networking with people talking to people exploring things I want to explore. But eventually, I would like to build the audience toward that. Yes. Got it. Got it. And when's the is there a release date for? Um, I would like it to be sometime in the end of 2022. If not, 2023. But you know, it's it's an ongoing thing. Got it. Got it. And after that releases, will you keep the podcast going? Yeah, I probably Yeah, I definitely. Will. I just I like the fact that I can talk to people with the podcast. Yeah. You know, I love the fact you can network with people. I'm a very big fan of the law of attraction. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. I like I like, like, to me if I see something like the beautiful thing about the podcast, I've had genius blender artists on there, right? Yeah. The CG artists guys, this the most amazing thing you've ever seen, like, you want to come on the show and talk about this? Yeah. You know, I have guys. They do like augmented reality. Like, it's like virtual reality. It's like, you take your camera, but then there's other stuff going on. And I'm trying to get them on right now. That's cool. So just the fact that you can go on Twitter, you can hang out with cool people like yeah, social media is if you want to complain, the algorithm will give you things to complain about, right? Yeah. And if you want to be happy, it'll give you things to be happy about. And I try to be happy. You know, the other way it happens sometimes, but yeah, you try to you try to go toward what you enjoy. Yeah, like it's back to you. Yeah, I think you're gonna want to see and yeah, and I try to network toward that. And hey, you want to come on the show. Just as a you know, that's such a cool thing to do, especially if it's like, back in the 90s there was a 2020 episode, right? Right, these, these little guys, these girls from middle school in Virginia, they sent a screenplay to Steven Spielberg for Tiny Toon Adventures. In Spielberg made the show reel, right? It became a real episode. And it inspired the Simpsons inspired all this stuff. And I'm like, Whatever happened to them? So I went out in Google, and I found her. And I said, Hey, you want to come on the show? And she came on the show and talked about it? Wow. You know, so to me, my whole thing with a podcast, too, is, if you have questions, Google can't answer. Yeah. But you can go out and find it. Go out and find it. Like, those are the best episodes. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that. And I just will add to that, for people listening to working in marketing, like myself for years. I will say what you think someone will do 99% of time, they never do. Like, because some of the questions you know, I've been asked over the years working in like social media content podcasting. Like you think like, people would Google a lot of stuff, but they don't, you know, like, and so like, even so almost anything you're saying like, it's like stuff that people probably won't even think to Google, you know? Yeah. Because because it's sometimes the most obvious stuff that we're like, oh, oh, yeah. Like, like, like, like, for example, yesterday, I was texting or DMing with a friend. And I was like, where did we meet you, bro? We met like, he's become a friend, rather quickly last over the last couple of months. And he sent me a screenshot of like the top of our message. And I was like, Oh, I didn't even I'm on. I'm on social media. Tech zoom all day. And I still didn't even think just to scroll to the top of the message. I'm like, Oh, my God, that's so obvious. So like, I don't know, I just say that. Because like, sometimes, we don't always do the most obvious things, you know, and I really liked how you bring it up this. But I also think that like something like that, because like, it's such a personal feeling with a friendship. And it's the same app that you deal with spam that you deal with every so many things. Yeah. And then it's like, I remember when I was younger, when they had CDs and like, like, there's a track you'd always skip. And then one day you listen to it. Yeah. And it's the most amazing song and you're like that was there the whole time? So are you hear differently? You're like this one song. I'm like, I've heard this before. But now it sounds different as I get older, or a lyric stands out. Yeah. I'm like, what? Most of the time I know what they're saying. And the Songs to Learn the lyrics gonna go? I like it more. I like it less. Yeah, that's it's a great point. And yeah, that's a great point. So podcast is chugging along. And as far as publishing goes, How often are you publishing? Um, you know, um, I try to do at least once a month as a minimum, just right now that just life got kind of crazy. But right now, I'm just trying to do you know, at least once a month, if not more, you know, just just to get keep things rolling. Yeah, any of you felt like any, are their periods where like, you're like, Oh, this is easy to get out one episode a month. And then sometimes it's like a, like, it's harder to get out and episode. I think doing one podcast episode is really easy, but like doing it every single time is difficult. But my whole thing, like, like doing it. Like my whole thing is this. I started with the one right, and then I go to three, because to me in my head three is a magic number. Right? And right now I'm trying to get to 30. And I think right now I'm I'm at 27. Yes. So I want to get to 30. And then I can just recharge from there. I can readjust from there. Yeah. What do I want to do? Because in a weird way, the tiny chain adventure episode and the dreams were so amazing. Like, I was like, if I can just get that I'd be happy. And then I get it. And then I go, Okay, what now? What do I want now? Yes. So that's something I need to think about. You know, I'm still working on the penguin project, you know, trying to calculate everything, try to make everything work. So there is sort of a question, Where am I going now? Yeah, you're the first person. I believe I've spoke with a release in recent memory that has set a goal on a quantity, number of episodes, which is the exact thing that I always suggest to podcasters is hidden number that you're going to reach of number of episodes, not downloads, not not anything else, really, ice just hit a number of like, I'm gonna put out 30 I usually say like, either 22 or 30. Because statistics show most people quit after three 711 and then 21. And like 30 is such a great number. Has it gotten easier as you've been rolling along? Um, yeah, it has. I think it's just a matter of me trying to find certain people. You know, I'm trying to get certain people on or just trying to find their schedules matching There are certain guests that I might seem as more controversial, so I'm trying to be like, maybe, maybe this isn't the right thing for them. But there's a part of me that loves me in a creative and be like, let's let's do it. But you know, there's there's little things like that where you're kind of overthinking it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You're Jana. And the controversial like, in which way? Um, he was kind of he has a lot of theories about where humanity's going in the future. And I in a almost like a Joe Rogan kind of way, I would say, I would say, like, I remember, this was why I was somebody was complaining about like, every business podcast is the same, do something different, and I wanted to do something different. But like, maybe it's just too different. You know, so. Yeah, I totally know. Jimmy. Yeah. Like anyone is this. Yeah, yeah. Do you find ever like the themes through your podcast to like, because you hit so many different points, that a listener might have trouble following along? Like, if they're like they're in Tiny Toons? Are they into future of humanity? It is something I do worry about. I wish I kind of wish I had like an outsider's perspective of what the podcast was. This is happening right now, by the way. Yeah, that's that's definitely what it were. I'm like, where like, would be the best place to go. Because sometimes you'll go on YouTube to promote it. And you'll feel kind of weird. Or you'll go to like another website to promote it. And you'll be like, Where? Where are my people? Like, I'm trying. I'm trying to find out where my people are. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. People are. I love that. I love how you said that. That makes a lot of sense. And so. So currently, and I got your, your info right in front of you. But currently, I mean, you've got like the podcast rolling up, like you said, you got one episode a month. But as far as like, and this is super normal of finding the best place to promote your podcast, what are you doing currently? That's, that's either working or not working? Maybe nothing like, Yeah, okay. Well, to me, I tried to see it as if I wasn't a podcast host. If I was just a regular person, where would be the closest thing I can do to find that podcast? Right. So for example, if you go into the 2020 episode about the Tiny Toon Adventures, you'll see a link on that YouTube channel with my podcast, because I'm like, this is where I found him. This is where I want to see him. And people were talking in the comments. I'm like, Hey, I interviewed them that yeah, check them out. So because everyone was so into it, I think it's I didn't feel like I was selling them anything. Yes. Yeah. So that's sort of one of the things I've been doing. Um, you know, I do on Twitter a little bit, but I don't just that I think Twitter doesn't really work too. Well. I think I need to figure that out. Just probably probably because, you know, I'm at work at the peak Twitter hours or whatever, so that that could be part of it. But yeah, what do you like using the most like, what's your favorite social media apps? Um, I think YouTube and Twitter might be the biggest ones, just just right now more than anything, just because it feels more like organic. I want to say like, you can try doing stuff on Reddit, but they're the moderators on Reddit. They won't let you do anything. Yeah, that's what I was just talking with someone yesterday. We were recording these. He was saying a similar thing. He was like, I every time I promote something is my New York accent yet. But it's like, every time I promote something, it just gets taken down. Or they're like, Yeah, and that was the same thing I was telling him as or sharing with him is like, the places where you go to promote something, are almost always other people promoting something because they allow it. If people aren't going in there to like, learn about something new. They're like, in and out. It's like, hey, check out my shit. And then I move on. Yeah, and that's like, common, super common. But annoying, especially on Reddit, too. It's so anonymous. Like, it's it's it's such an anonymous platform. Whereas Twitter is like, I guess a little bit more anonymous. Maybe Elon Musk's, making it less anonymous? I don't know. But that could change. And then on YouTube, okay, so are you posting the YouTube episodes or podcast episodes to YouTube? Not always. Sometimes, if there's smaller episodes, I'll do it. There was a Nigerian filmmaker named Benny D, he makes CG photorealistic CG movies. And we did a short, I was talking to him from Nigeria, the huge time difference. So I only had like a 10 minute window to talk to him. So luckily, I could put that one on YouTube. I put that you know, on my YouTube channel, I put that into his YouTube videos. So that was one of the examples. What I also like to do is if I have a guest, and they say something funny, or they say something cool, like, you know, I have editing stuff, so I'll just edit like a little movie thing. You know what we're talking about? Yeah, you know, so that's one of the things I like like little clips in there. Perfect. Perfect. And And do you find that that is added? Like, is it working? I guess, um, I feel like it worked more in previous podcast things that I did like one of the things we're really works on is if I talk about something, and maybe the other guest doesn't know about it, and I tell them what it is, and then later I'll get footage of whatever that thing is like, if there's like a movie you've never heard of, and like, never heard of this, and then show the trailer, the movie, and then you see it for the first time. So there's something spiritual in that that, yes. Do you know who Nard war is? Is it? Yes, yes. Yes. He's like, the king at almost creeping people out when he interviews like he'll interview, I think mostly musicians, I guess. Yeah. And he'll just bust out something from their childhood that like they've never said or something he's like, they're like, how did you know this? They get always freaked out. I love that stuff. But I think the beautiful thing about Nord war is he's from a journalistic family. And his mother was an actual serious journalist. And he just sort of used that power to do musicians, whereas before it would have been, you know, corruption and government and that added up, but he just does that for musicians. And it works really well. So well. And he's got like his style down. And it's like, adds such a mystery of like, Who is this guy? People are like, want to see him almost out of character. They're looking for him to be. Did you ever see his Nirvana interview? I don't remember. I've watched so many of them. I don't, I don't, but I'll have to revisit that. Yeah, that was pretty intense. Because Kurt Cobain was just talking about David Geffen ripping them off from his royalties. So it's pretty it's pretty intense. So yeah, and that's, I mean, it's why I mean, he's been doing it for so long. Wow. Yeah. Forever since since the day Kennedy era, the 80s incredible. He's been going back since the 80s. Yeah, yeah. I didn't realize that. Geez, he looks great. For however old he is. Yeah. Cheese. Well, I think that was a that was such a special time in like music and stuff. And I think luckily Canada has something where they like sponsor you do and it almost BBC kind of way. Whereas in America, it would he'd probably be so hungry for ratings he might have gotten prevented him from blooming. Yeah. Yeah. That makes that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. All right. So back to your podcast goals. Goal is drive awareness and build an audience. Find my people, for your people, with the goal of them consuming or buying with with with it with a goal of eventually seen anti-matter Penguin have having that happen. You know, I think so many people complain about a lack of originality, but I think when you look at it from an SEO marketing perspective, an original idea is the hardest thing in the world. Yes, yes. Especially if it's something that's very personal to you. It's like how do you find if you have a very personal story about your life? Yeah. And I go, what's the target audience for that? Like it? It's hard for someone to conceptualize it if you don't have outside eyes? Oh, totally. Yeah. And and so Okay, so as an outsider, I am actually probably probably a great person to be talking with you because I really like weird stuff. I can't watch the movies that are out in theaters most of the time, like I physically can't stay awake, because I just wouldn't something seems like it's predictable. Is the awake. I can watch David Lynch's Eraserhead and stay wide awake. And I'm like into it. I love art films. I love weird stuff that people drives them crazy. Like there's no talking for like 47 minutes in Eraserhead and that's just like, like give me a you know, give me no talking and like nothing that makes sense. And I'll interpret my own vision. Yeah, so I love that stuff. And I love the end I respect and appreciate like, big budget stuff like like cool. I get it. It's just not particularly for me or my body doesn't say wait, so I can't really watch it. But with that being said, obviously there's like a whole I know you know this I'm just sharing this because there's also people listening is there is a whole like cult following around certain things. Yes. And the in cult followings typically show like they don't they look different than your average followings. You know, it's like yeah, they're a deeper relationship to the to the art that they like, you know, like even I know David Lynch is like a huge director and like as Twin Peaks and like big work but like looking at even just like just keep using him as an example but like looking at like a Eraserhead type film. That is like a different relationship with that than it is like Oh, I love transformers than it is like the people who love like Marvel movies. Yeah, like it's like there's such Uh, there's like a category you know, of people like, you know? And like, would you say like, it sounds like based on what you described. And again, I'm like, trying to I am approaching this from a neutral view. But would you say the the audience that interacts with your show currently, and the one that you want to build more of? Are people that are more of like the indie cult type following? Yes. Yeah, I would say that. Got it. Got it. And where are like what other type of things are these people enjoying? Um, it's weird because I try not to watch Rick and Morty right? Because I don't want to be I don't want to be influenced because it gets muddy if that happens. But I've shown the the penguin project to people who love Rick and Morty and they love it. You know, I actually wrote because Rick and Morty was Dan harmony pay community. I wrote spec script for community back in the day like they didn't have never got accepted, but he was always in the background. And it's interesting to see people who are in the background. Yeah, like you talked about Twin Peaks. There's a movie called the scene sisters. And one of the one of the girls from Twin Peaks was in it. The one who did she was a what's what's the Richard Burton's wife, Elizabeth Taylor. She did the Elizabeth Taylor movie. She was in that movie with me is called the seamstress if you wanna check it out. But yeah, so I think like Rick and Morty comes to mind like a lot at like, people tell me like Adult Swim might be the thing. Got it? Okay. You know, Tim and Eric, almost style stuff are not that far. Maybe not. Not on purpose. Yeah, not on purpose. Yeah, but that could be a possibility. I wanted to do something a little bit more four quadrant with King firepower. But that that hasn't happened yet, though. So part of me is wondering, okay, let me just keep going with the niche kind of thing. Yes, more, you know, people who are more an animators animation fan kind of a thing. That's something I'm playing around with. So I'm just spitballing here. But what I like the imagery that pops into my mind that like you're kind of doing in one area, but I'd not like but would make an easy like transition over on your podcast to like be a future as well as like, I'm seeing like the crowds that look just like Ron with the Adult Swim kind of Rick and Morty kind of crowd. Yeah, into like, like, they're into like building relationships with characters. And like Funko Pops, like vinyl characters, stickers, identities, like their, their character has become like, they're almost like an extension of their current identity. I'm actually, I'm actually a shareholder in Funko. So that works. With a legal obligation to disclose. So, but but like, these are all great things about like, people make, you know, these brands, their identities, and it just strikes me especially as like your podcast, like you're building, you're building a university, you've built it. You're in the process of building, you know, in a weird way I have it. Yeah. And, and these characters in the universe have names. Yeah. And I think there's a really interesting opportunity to use those characters to like, include, like, allow people to build a deeper relationship with them. Especially if your goal is to drive them to antimatter penguin. Having them appear whether it's on little YouTube things or little Twitter things like do they exist? Like the images of them exist already? Yeah, yeah, they exist. Yeah. And I can show you a quick clip if you want. I mean, it's very Yeah, but yeah, I can definitely show it to you. Like later maybe if I send you a link Yeah. But yeah, have you ever thought about ways of incorporating these characters into your podcast? I'm just right now I think what I want is I want it to be done first. Because I'm so focused on um, it's basically it's all me I make the draw the art. I do the audio I record the voices. I do you know, all the all the stuff. I would like it to be feature length. That's the hope. And then I tried to figure out distribution and marketing and all the other stuff from there but right now I'm just like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And I want people to just sort of I just want the energy in the background with the podcast right? Yes. Love that. Love that because if you make a film and you promote it and there's no built in audience they go you should have built you should have done a podcast 18 months ago, buddy. Yes, yes. Yeah, same with same with the musicians, though these days, too. They're like you want to come to us to build an audience. They like they want to talk to people with an audience already. Yeah. All right, hear me out. These again, these are things that you know, is conversation like, I'm not just like do this do that your podcast being a universe in itself, like it is its own thing. You're inviting people to like, when I listen to your podcast, and this is coming from a neutral audience, and I'm not saying you do this or don't do this, I'm just saying, enhancing it. And like, that's cool. I am listening to podcasts to tune out and kind of just basically, just like, if I'm watching Rick and Morty, it's because I don't want to freakin think about anything. And I just want to, like, be in this universe. And I don't want to like, it's not like I'm like, it's like, Rick and Morty or heroin. I'm not saying like, trying to, like, you know, completely escape from reality, but in a way I kind of am. And your podcast provides that escape mentally, through the ears. And thinking of it as, as of natural extension, it doesn't have to be a mirror of your antimatter Penguin, but making it like a natural making its own universe that when the time comes, you could easily connect the two and be like, these worlds are coming closer. But But if like think about it is if if Cartoon Network reached out to you right now, what they would probably flip your show into is being its own little universe, like, everything is like universe building, even with bands, but primarily, especially with like animated shows is you're leaving this world and you're going in that world where the rules, same rules don't apply. And having some rules that are different in your podcast world would be really exciting as a listener to be like, Whoa, like, this is different. Like there's something that's just different. It doesn't need to be over the top or zany. It's like a natural thing that you're you're already such a like, like a visionary and see things in a way that like normal people don't. Okay, just the way you describe the things and like, that's not common, you know, either in a podcast form would be seriously next level, and not something that I can say that I've actually heard. It's as simple as like, whether that's a little bit of sound. Which, you know, there's a ton of royalty free like Epidemic Sound. Yeah, sounds I don't know if there's a plural epidemic sound.com has a has a great options with like, just little things that like, let me know, like the smallest of detail that let me know just like would go so far like, Whoa, I am now making this my identity like I basically at the end of the day, I want to make your podcast my identity. Okay, and how am I going to do that? It's going to be through you creating this other world like I am not. I want like, if same as if if the who's the Rick and Morty guy again? Dan Harmon, Harmon Harmon. Like I looked into him a couple years back. If you're listening in, you're like, I don't know who the heck these guys are talking about. Rick and Morty is a fascinating cartoon. I don't even know how to describe it. But make sure to check that out just so you can kind of get a better idea of what we're talking about. But when I looked up Dan Harmon, like if he had a, I don't know if he has a podcast, I would expect. I'm like, I want to be in Dan Harmons mind, which is not like my mind, which he's probably going to do something weird. Like, there's probably going to be something weird that I am. And it's not going to be like some overly obvious thing where he's like, welcome to Dan Harmon, where he like has maybe it is but like, there's going to be something we're just so uniquely him that whether it's a ukulele or it's a just a little like, space sound, something that like your universe, or something that would exist currently an antimatter Penguin, like a little sound, okay, would be so cool as a listener to be like, how can I get more of this? It would leave me wanting more, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Like the extension of one of the things I always like, it's kind of an epiphany. I had all these, like, marketers are like, You got to have storytelling marketing, you have to have storytelling marketing. And for the longest time, I was very cynical about that. Right. But then one day, I realized all of those Star Wars behind the scenes making of things that was storytelling marketing. Yeah. Like the Movies that a story that George Lucas is making of is the beast story. Yeah. Because they don't the amount of footage he had. I don't have that in romantic comedies. And I will just, and I will just tell Pete, like, I know, I know, George Lucas almost had a heart attack on episode four. And yeah, and then on Episode Five, he said, If I don't declare, if I don't make I have all the money in the world. I have to declare bankruptcy. Just all these little stories. Yeah. So I'm like, Yeah, and like, just as a tactical because it's like, I know sometimes when you think of ideas, it's like a Okay, how am I gonna like this sounds like a lot, because then it's like, am I rewriting everything, but just as like a tactical, what that would look like immediately for your podcast is, say you had like your regular style of doing things, you have your interview, let's just say an interview. Yeah, but at the beginning or the end, like in your interview, if I'm using this, right, the interview would be like a story. But at the end of each episode, it could be as simple as adding in like a little short story of something in short, meaning like, literally two to five minutes of it, there's some type of like, I have to know that I'm in this other room. And it's just like a little noise break, will two second noise break five second, 10 second, nothing too long, going into like, some other thing. And it's just simply like you telling me a story of some sorts, or something where it's like, the interview was awesome. And this short story you told me or this something you else you told me just said it over the top because I feel even a deeper connection, because it's almost like you see me as because it's for the listener, you know, it's like, it's not like, it's not podcasts aren't strictly just conversations. Although that's the thing, people are just talking, it's not really just talking when you do it, right. Because you're aware of the other person listening. Yeah. So yeah, so like some little thing in there would just be, it would just send it over the top of people within like, it's like, that's what I think turns into a cult following of enjoying your stuff of I love the interviews and the way he's like, the short story that maybe like, you know, you could get crazy with it of string together several short stories where people are like, I have to listen to the next one, to know what's going to happen, something like that. But you have like, so many opportunities of weaving in stories, in, in addition to the episode, like in the same episode as the interview, like you don't have to just do an interview and be like, Wow, I'll do another episode where it's a short story. Like, you could do that. Or you could just add on one episode, you know? Yeah, that's something to think about. I like the idea of treating it like, like a story B story, whether whether Antimatter is the a story or whatever, whatever. But I like I like playing around with that data. Yeah, I think that's because for so long, I treated it like a networking thing. But to incorporate it more. I think that's something to look forward to. And I think, I mean, I love the networking thing, too, because it's true, you know, like, podcasts are awesome for that. But, yeah, so when it comes to promotion, you mentioned admin bans. Mods, is that primarily, like a Reddit thing? Yeah, I think the way the way Twitter is going is definitely read it really better. Um, I know, here's the thing. I everyone who knows me knows I have a very, I have a very complicated relationship with Elon Musk. Because well, but just just because just the certainty, I don't I don't really want to talk about it, right. But the numbers don't make any sense. You know, but at the same time, I would love to go to Mars. So I just let him do his thing. I worry about my thing. But investing in his companies? I don't know. Like, I know, a lot of people lost money on Dogecoin. Right. So from that perspective, is different. But in terms of the celebrity, it's fine. Do whatever you want to do. Yeah. But I have a very complicated relationship, because people like you hate him. I don't hate him. Yeah, I just, you know, the way he does things, people lost a lot of money. That's all. Yeah, so. And now he says he's buying Twitter, but he's taking out loans on Tesla stock to buy Twitter. If Tesla falls by if the price falls by 20%. He's basically ruined. So if people see people see whatever they want to see, and billionaires and it's really scary, so they think he's gonna be the champion or free speech, or they think he's the devil. He's, he's in between. He's in the middle. Yeah. So I'm cautiously optimistic sitting in the backseat, and let's see what happens. But I do know the way Twitter has been going, you know, it's been going on for 10 years, which is amazing. When you think about it. What do you think about YouTubers, like the Angry Video Game Nerd? He's been around since 2004. That's a bait like, people are out. He's not as good as he used to be. He is amazing. You know, just to since 2000, forces people didn't even know what this was. Yeah, he he cranks it out all the time. And he still raises his kids and does everything. You know, and I think people when it becomes so ubiquitous, when it becomes right, you know, right on your desk, it's right there. People judge it and they don't see you as a real person, but it's amazing. That's what it is. It's phenomenal. You know, and I think that's important to have that because if you don't feel like this is amazing. Those add members It bans are gonna kill you. Yes, you know? And have you found yourself creating something like that or catching any traction for creating anything like that yourself, like your own community of that so far. I'm just right now I would like to build more of a community. Like, there are times when you say something and people get angry, like the things that people should get angry about are very strange. And I have to, I used to worry about it, but I have to lean in and just be more willing to go in the battle. Ya know, I try to be respectful I tried to you know, Bob above about how are you today nice to you know, but I need to just be myself. And if people I think I think for the longest time the old The old way of thinking about things right? Is Oh, no, don't make anybody mad. You don't want to have about you don't want to but now you can have a niche you can be you can be an A micro internet celebrity. Yeah, it pay the bills, make a living, do what you want. You have have a have a beautiful spouse have beautiful everything. Yeah. So but you know that you have to, it's weird, because you have to experiment. You can't there's no play, you have to just experiment with some new website, you have to experiment like I need to, I need to do tick tock but I'm afraid of Tiktok because of the security thing, I need to I need to get a special phone and just do tick tock sketches or something. Like it's something on my mind, especially when it comes closer to anti-matter Penguin. So there's there's a lot of different things like that, but just letting you know, cuz people out there are crazy, right? Like, there's crazy people that you know, you know, the rapper pop smoke. Like, I mean, he got killed in an Airbnb by one of his fans, you know, so that is a reality, but the same time. Like, it's just part of the game like either, you know, the rock climbers, people who like crime rocks and stuff, you know, it's either they have depression, or they're doing the climb. You know, at a certain point, that's what it is. Yeah. Like, I was watching this video. This guy, he's skydive, and then he landed on a building and the security guard was chasing him and he jumped off again, I saw that one. Yeah, like guys like that. It's either they do that and risk dying. Or they're just really depressed on the couch. And their wives are like, you know, I'm not as attracted to you as I used to be. And that's why because the the life isn't there. And I think that's important. So, yeah, there are risks. But you know, you have to go out and do it. If you have if the podcast is in you, you have to do it. If you just sit around being depressed all the time. If you're not doing it, you have to do it like it's, there's no choice. Yes. So the sublet, and I love that. And so the supplemental content you're making to the podcast? Like are you sharing anything with a guest after the guest comes on? Like links? Yeah, like if he says something funny, we had, like, we I had one. It was a man, the world's fastest, the fastest talking man in the world was on my show, right. And he had this observation that Americans love cheese. So I just really quickly made a little video of mericans eating cheese, you know, and just sent it to him. So just little things like that, you know, just visual aids because I think we're more of a visual society and I need to incorporate video more. I'm not this is not the real video. Me, but we need to have more video eventually. Yeah, but but I you know, so yeah, I like making little videos and stuff like that just to showcase showcase things more and just have a great feeling with my guests. Like they're not just like they're promoting things sometimes. But they're not promoting things. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, I'll just say to like, when it comes to giving them promotional materials, anything that makes them look good, you know, they're gonna want to promote because it's like, hey, it's easy work. Yeah, I took a great picture of you, and I gave it to you, you'd be like, cool. Let me just use this as my profile photo. I'm not gonna be like, you know, I'll like, I'll put that up everywhere. But then, you know, people give something and like, I don't know, if it looks, you know, that's, I think that's the best test of if you did do a good job for anybody. If you do a good job of making someone look good, it's like, you know, because they'll post it. Yeah, awesome. Okay, so I think I asked you this, but I don't record. Content in addition to your podcast, how often are you posting like on Twitter? I'm on Twitter. I mean, I usually post it once it comes out. You know, sometimes I think I feel a little hesitant regarding posting and just because like one time somebody threatened to kill me because I posted something once you know what I mean? So speaking of law of attraction, who are you attracting over here? I mean, there's there's there's the one way and then there's the other way, you got to start fresh account. I gotta say you got to start. You got to start the clean energy of Yeah, well, I mean, I'll you know, I like horribly cuz it's a problem. That's another thing because stories are all about conflict. Right? So like, like with with Mike Tyson, like, he tried to live a clean light, like do you listen to Tyson's podcast? Occasionally, occasionally, I just like, because of his experiences, he is able to, you know, wield things in a certain way. Like there was one with low Boosey, who was, you know, he was he was in jail, and Boosey looked up to Mike. And Mike was like, No, don't look up to me. That was somebody, I'm not who I am anymore. Yeah. And it helped because Boosey had his own problems that were causing him to be antisocial. And Tyson was able to talk to him about life and growing up and handling more responsibilities. Yeah. And it came from a perspective that Boosey shared. You know, do you know the story about why Mike Tyson was so angry? No, I don't think so. Okay, so Tyson used to grew up, you know, in, I believe, in New York, right. And he used to have these pigeons. He used to collect pigeons. That was his thing. And one day, this kid from school goes, Can I look, take a look at one of your pigeons. And Tyson gave a kid the bird and the kid ripped it in half. And Tyson beat the EverLiving hell, that kid and he was angry ever since. And so for the longest time, Tyson's journey is about him learning to come to peace with himself. But unfortunately, because this airplane situation, you have to you have to look at the situation as like, is he ever going? Are you ever going to live in a world free of conflicts? Yes, you know, and it's unfortunate, because it's so interesting. The drama is so interesting. So there's always going to be a level of drama, there's always going to be somebody out there trying to tell you blah, blah, blah, I care in trying to get you cancelled, there's always going to be that. But I think that's just part of the cycle of life. Right? There's always going to be a storm. Yeah. You know, so that's something to deal with. And something to consider. Is, is your when you're tweeting, are you doing it from? Is it like a podcast account? Or is it just your own? Oh, it's my account at Cayman. Okay, gotcha. You might consider just just just, you know, might consider doing a podcast account, just to keep it separate. And for people easier to follow the podcast story, because people that are consuming your podcast, they're likely, you know, they have like expectations, right? If you just then had some switch up, and you're like, we're only going to play country music on this podcast now than you expected. People would be like, how long would they stick around, people would stick around, maybe because they're like, it's weird. But they're gonna be like, at some point that could be like, I'm gonna go look for something else. Not saying that. That's the case with them following your personal one. But I think, you know, like, you mentioned niche, I think with like, the niche you're trying to attract, it seems like, it makes the most sense to just do your podcast account. In we say, Twitter, but you know, you can use it on whatever platforms. So people can build that relationship with the podcast. And there is like some separate because there's people that are gonna want to share stuff that you are making, that they might be hesitant to make. Because that's maybe like you say, an opinion, or some type of thing that they maybe don't want to be associated with. Which, if your goal is to have a low number of audience members is like, totally fine. If your goal is to reach as many people as possible, it makes the most sense to create a level of safety amongst your audience. Nobody is worried that if they retweet something from the Rick and Morty account that like the next thing is going to be something that is vastly controversial, or argumentative. You know, like, that creates a rift in people in fans, because they're like, this is my identity. And by them taking on the identity, they're taking on the identity of you at this point. A lot of people spend time on social media, which means they're less likely to share anything you make, because they're like, they see it to you. But if it's the podcast, if it's came in cast, it's almost something bigger than you. And it is something bigger than you and you're making something bigger than you. And same with any amount of penguin. It's bigger than you and currently it's all attached to you. And it's just going to hit like you're going to hit a ceiling on that unless unless like you can bridge the two but it's it's going to be a harder road. I guess it's all I'm gonna say. I'm not saying it's impossible. It's going to be a much harder road to try and get people on board with you rather than an idea. And if you look at angry video gamer Yeah, like they was him in that like personality stuff, that's all. It's like bigger than him. Like, you could almost transfer that to someone else that takes so long to do, which, if you're up for that, it's like, cool, but I would like set expectations. You know, like, is this something that represents these people, you know, and to even just free yourself of that and just make your own podcast account of like, I'm gonna share cool stuff here. And then I'll just keep this separate, I think just gives you so much more freedom of like, what can I and I can't talk about, like when you mentioned the controversial guests. So do you like this? That should just be like, You should basically like, be able to leave anything on the table. But separate it so you never have to be like, maybe I shouldn't say this on my Twitter because I have fans of the podcast because once you hit a certain level, you're gonna be like, overthinking, like you mentioned, thinking, you're gonna overthink 100 times is more because you're gonna be like, I don't know if I should say this. But if you can separate the two, then you won't have to worry. And, and still drive people on your personal one and drive people on your podcast one, if that makes sense. Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. Something Something to think about. Yeah, actually, there was a previous podcast where I tried doing that. But um, I had a huge falling out with my co hosts. It was it was it was it was a crazy mess. But um, yeah, so that was something I did. Because I think yeah, it's something I've done in the past. So I'll think about it. Yeah. The other like, last suggestion, because we're going to wrap up. last suggestion I would offer is, when it comes to episode titles, it's, it's almost like everything is identity. And I might get some realizing like the theme of what I noticed, as a neutral listener, and a podcast consumer, podcast coach, is, I think the theme of today is really just like branding, and identity. But episode titles, too. People connect with those episode titles. And it's, and I'm like, I hope you hear what I'm the way I'm trying to say it is like, it's not like you have to formulate the ways everyone else is doing it is just like giving you more freedom. Because honestly, the the most raw and real feedback I can give you is that it feels like you are this absolute absolute, like visionary genius. And you're playing it down in a way that you feel like it's supposed to be played down. But in reality, it's like, let all that stuff wildly loose in the form of episode titles, in the form of like, all that stuff. And as a fan, as a listener, it will draw me so much closer. But I'm like, as I as I take it in, I'm like, This dude's crazy. Then he's leading me on believe I want more of it. Not like don't don't play it down for me. Like I'm like, okay, handle it. And not that you again, I'm not saying like, you know, over the top way of like, this is absolutely insane. But like, whatever it is, whatever the natural extension of what it is that you're like, want to do, because okay, I mean, you've explained so much, insanely cool stuff like the University of making, like, I don't see that on the episode title. artwork of your show is literally just like red with white letters. And I'm like, okay, okay, I like this. I think this this is the outside perspective I needed. Yeah, I'm like, we could talk about Elon Musk bounce up at you. Okay. I just I just think you're absolutely crazy. In a great way awesome. I'm not like, Oh my God, I need overwhelmingly crazy, but I've seen like I said, I like watching Weird stuff sometimes. And I'm like, sometimes when like these jokes will go on for too long. Whether it's like Tim and Eric that show or whatever the Andre Eric show. Yeah. I'm not saying like not judging good or bad or anything, but the humor people have is so specific. And I have a feeling in your head you have something that is like so specific. Like nobody will understand it. And I'm like, maybe they weren't interpretation like that's like the interpretation. I feel like not cool will understand it. Like you don't have to worry if I'll understand it, or everybody else in the world will understand it won't get it like they could be like everyone could miss understand everything you're saying at the end of the day, you'd be like, they didn't actually understand and that's the same thing with like, Star Wars or anything like that. Five years people are like, what did you mean when you said this thing? And you're like, actually, it didn't really mean anything. I was just hungry. And I did this and people oh man, he's just hungry. Oh my God I had no you know what a cool like Yeah. I just wanted to say lean into like the absolute vision that you have like cool. You got a freakin you got a universe whirling. Thank you. Thank you. I kind of I kind of, you know, I just wanted to get some outside perspective. Yeah. And I really I really appreciate you taking your time and To walk me through this because I think I'm excited. I'm excited to follow it like, and like, hear more of it for one because it's insanely unique. And I think you did like Thank you. Like there's so many copies of a copy out there's, it's refreshing to see someone that is creating something that's never been done. And you're leading people. Place that has never been created as you're creating it. So cool. Yeah. I really, I really appreciate this feedback. Yeah. I'm glad we we took the time to do this sweet. Thank you for coming on the podcast today and make sure to check out the keyman cast billable on Spotify? Yes. That was the main one, and digital podcaster.com Check it out. Thanks again to read for coming on the podcast today and being open and sharing about the ups and downs of podcasting and being open to the conversation. If you would like to start or grow or monetize your own podcast, make sure to visit www dot digital podcaster.com I would love to help you succeed in your podcasting goals. So head to digital podcaster.com To learn more about that. And yeah, I got a another coaching conversation for you next week. We're just rolling with these. They've been a lot of fun to do. And I am having a lot of fun. I hope you having fun listening. It would mean the world to me, if you would send me some feedback on what you're liking. A hello at Digital podcaster.com We'd love to know what part specifically that you are enjoying. And then also, it would mean the world to me if you would leave a rating and review that helps the show a ton. The feedback is much appreciated. I promise you that. Alright, I hope you having a great week so far. I hope it's going to be a great week for you. It's going to be a great week. Let's make it a great week. Keep up that shake on it. All right.