Welcome to Digital Podcaster. I'm your host Dylan Schmidt. And today I'm speaking with product builder, instructor and writer, Yvonne Chung. Yvonne runs a course called building public mastery, which helps entrepreneurs show their work publicly, to build up their brand and super fan base. He also just released a book called find joy in chaos, how to build your Twitter presence. So connections and opportunities, come find you. I've spoken with a lot of people recently who are struggling with how to build a presence online specifically on Twitter. So when I came across Gabon's profile, I knew it would be a great fit to speak with him. In this episode, you'll learn exactly how to start from scratch on Twitter, building an audience, how to start posting what to start with and how to stay consistent. Please enjoy my conversation with kfan. Sean. Welcome to the podcast. Cavani. Thank you so much for joining me today. You got a new book, you've written you've wrote called find joy in chaos. And you are, I've had other say, marketers on the podcast or people that are experts in a certain domain, and I have not had anyone that is well versed in Twitter. And so you are my first I feel like Twitter guest, which is exciting, and a little bit in the unknown. So first off, just say welcome.
Kevon Cheung:Thank you, Dylan. Thank you for having me here. Yeah, let's talk about the birth then.
Dylan Schmidt:Congratulations, by the way, that's how was the process for that? For right whole?
Kevon Cheung:You know, I started writing 10 months ago. So that was my first thought like, oh, I wanted to do a book because, you know, in a way, I think readers are more patient. So my topic is about, you know, long term game, be authentic. Everything is about patience. So I think readers might resonate better, but it took me 10 months, and I took a four month break in between. So it was it was tough. But at the end, I just got it out. Yeah.
Dylan Schmidt:Which is shortens in some people, right? When some people will take years to write a book. It seems like so, on one hand, I feel like you're very efficient. Everything I've seen from you is very, like, tight, clean, well thought out. Not. I don't perceive it to be like rushed. But did you find was it like long days putting into the book,
Kevon Cheung:I think depends what book you're writing. So for a nonfiction business book, and since I talk about this topic, like day and night, almost every minute of my life, then a lot of it is just in my head. So a lot of it is more structuring the learning process for the reader. But I assume someone writing a novel would would be a very different story. So for me, it was it was okay. But you know, I cannot write for so long in a day. So if I put my mind to it, I usually block out three hours in the morning. That's my writing time. And that's it for the day. So however much progress I can make in that three hours, that's it. So it usually take couple of weeks for each addition. But I also loop in a lot of my beta readers, so people give feedback along the way. So each time after each round of beta reading, I go back and edit the whole book. And actually, in the second beta reading route, I actually rewrite most of the chapters.
Dylan Schmidt:That's incredible. So you're have to dig into this a little bit. So you're walking the talk, so to speak, as far as as building you in a way you're kind of building your book in public to totally
Kevon Cheung:Yeah, because I think the best part is to involve the people around me, like I fail so many times as an entrepreneur, because I like to imagine solutions. So now I'm like, Okay, let me just be that dummy in the room. I know nothing. But I just go on Twitter and ask, Hey, can you help me take a look at this chapter? Hey, would you like to read my book for free, but give me feedback. So I just rely on this now and going forward?
Dylan Schmidt:That's incredible in such a opposite direction of what I see most people do. There seems to be this. This like, I don't want to let anyone know. I don't know something. You know, and it's interesting, you know, it's like, I know everything like people kind of want their perception to be online. A lot of what I see, especially in like the marketing entrepreneurial space, because it's almost like showing a sign of weakness is showing a sign of like, you you almost like I don't know if it's like you can't trust me or whatever it is. I don't know what the root kind of is there but I just love how open you are. Are with how you do things. So for those that don't know, your the title of your book is find joy in chaos. And the subtitle is a long one. Is that the right word? Subtitle? How? Yeah. Subtitle, subtitle? Yeah, how to build your Twitter presence. So connections and opportunities come find you. And a couple questions I got. But one is in, in this day and age, Twitter is one of those social platforms that has been around for a while, but is not losing steam. You know, it's in the news, probably more so these days than it was a year ago. But at the same time, it's it's always has an active community of people, probably because you don't have to create some video editing, you know, you don't have to, there's a lot you don't have to do on Twitter, which I really appreciate. And communities are thriving on there. But what made you like what was the catalyst to writing a book? This or writing it last year, but releasing a book on Twitter? What was it about Twitter that that sparked it for you?
Kevon Cheung:Yeah, I think you call out a good point, like when I first started out on Twitter and of 2020. Yeah, that was the time Yeah, I had this impression that Twitter is a place for politicians, celebrities to just broadcast their message. And then the rest of the world was just listening to them. Or maybe some big entrepreneurs, right. And that's why I never got on Twitter, even though I had my account since 2009, when I was still in school. And the thing that changed is that I was looking for a platform to let people discover me, because I was kind of the I talk into book description that I felt like a nobody after working for eight years for multiple startups. Now it's time for me to build something under my name. So you cannot just create a website and a blog and expect people to find you, you need a platform for discovery. And you caught out the good point because Twitter seems the easiest. Honestly, I try creating YouTube videos back in 2018. It took me 30 hours to make one video. And then no one ever reply to you. So I didn't want to do that. I want something quick so I can iterate. So Twitter becomes my go to and because I know that I want to serve entrepreneurs, I how do I know I write articles one a week when I first started out, and I observed what kind of topic I write about. And it's all about ups and downs of my journey. So I know that's the kind of people and they're all on Twitter. So yeah, all that combined makes Twitter the go to a place for me. But now I have a kind of third reason to use it is just so conversational. Like on LinkedIn, you kind of make a long post and probably you post maximum once a day, right? But on Twitter is like, you can have fun, you can joke around, you can just reply meaningfully with like two lines. That's my cup of tea. Like I, I like to be a bit more casual, you can probably see on my branding, I have like the broccoli. I'm always joking with people. So it's just a good match to my personality as well.
Dylan Schmidt:Yeah, and I do want to clarify when I say it may be like a lower barrier to entry, or it's maybe easier or less time to create on Twitter. On the flip side of that I feel like is starting later say maybe starting in 2022 to build a presence on there is it my perception is that it's harder because it's easier, which means that more people could then hop on and take up that space. And it's almost easier to I believe to like slip into that observer role of it's for other people to tell me things, but not for me to tell things to people. And I love that you are sharing with people how to build a Twitter presence, because it is is something that yeah, like and I mentioned this to you in a message but I had done it. Years ago I had taken over someone's really active account, and then starting my own business about a year ago. And then kind of like putting Twitter just like focusing on other platforms. I like go on Twitter. I'm like wow, it's almost overwhelming. All of the people and things in the communities and just all the options it feels like there's these little pockets of groups almost that I'm like, where do where do I go it's like being at school or something but like no assignment for the classroom and you do such a great job of welcoming people I feel like into your, your little universe, the divine universe. And, and again, I guess that's what you teach people to do essentially, right is, is build a presence, but do it is kind of share what you're going through. Could you speak a little bit more about the built in public idea? And what that means?
Kevon Cheung:Yeah, sure. By the way, I really love your school idea, because I actually use that in the book to kind of show people that there's nothing different between attending a new school trying to make friends, when the camp is so big when they're, like 400 students versus getting on Twitter. If you think about it this way, everything's becomes easier. But yeah, back to Billy in public. You know, earlier in this podcast, we talked about, like how people would like to show up as an expert, they like to, you know, have that authority over the people. So people would buy stuff from them, I think it's time to change because, you know, especially after COVID, like a lot of people are creating their own brand. And now we trust people more than what a brand say. So if you're only creating what I call marketing, like stories and brand, it is hard to connect with people. So building public means like, you're kind of running an open kitchen. So you're doing things as usual. But now you're having this glass in front of you. So people can see Oh, Cavani is cooking the steak. And this is how he prepares it. So whether people like it or not, is up to them. Like they might say, that's not how you cook a piece of steak. Or some people like Oh, I love it, this must be a high quality restaurant, it's up to them to judge. But at least you know, you give more con context to people about how you do things. And you know, what I discover myself is that people take you seriously when you are sharing your journey over a long time, because there's no way to fake it. And you share your ups and downs. And not only they like you, they take you seriously they buy from you. And they're loyal to you. So this is why I'm so keen on spreading the mindset to more people because it's it's just the right approach the genuine approach.
Dylan Schmidt:And an example of like building in public, for example, say, so would you say like you built your book in public? Oh, definitely. Definitely, definitely. An example of that would be, would that be like a tweet about what you wrote that day? Or what you wrote that week? Or?
Kevon Cheung:Oh, okay, that's a really good question. I don't think we will be like that. Because one thing we need to understand is no one cares about your work. What I mean is, no one cares about what you work on that day. They care more about what they can learn at the same time while watching you. So for example, a building and public posts could start from me asking my audience, hey, I really don't care about the follower count. So but this is me, this is my perspective. I know nothing about like, what Dylan is thinking, what are what is thinking what Jessica is thinking. So I'm putting it out there to try to pick your brains. I think that's one form of building and public. And then the second form is like, Hey, I am. I'm starting this book. And I'm almost done with my draft, can I invite some beta readers to come in, so you're involving the people in the process, and then when it launches, you can share the numbers, you don't have to just make it clear, I just want to be clear here, you don't have to share any numbers. But if you're comfortable sharing some sales, you know, our reader number that will really help to build credibility to your name. So I don't think it's about sharing what you do day to day, that's kind of like a to do list, but really pick out important lessons of the journey, and put it out there and also involving people in the process. Got it?
Dylan Schmidt:That's a great distinction. And I know someone listening will probably be like, well, maybe I don't have a big audience to start. And maybe they're active on Twitter, and they're actually asking their audience, what how do you know if the information you're getting from your audience? Like say you put something out there? I don't care about Twitter follower count, but like, what do you value on Twitter? And then someone says, I value Twitter threads, or something, maybe they like call it a specific thing. Do you need like a number of people or how do you like, kind of know what amount or what to trust? I guess if you're asking maybe seemingly random people, if that makes sense.
Kevon Cheung:Yeah, so this is all So a blessing and a curse of peering in public. So the blessing is, you get so much feedback, public feedback, and it comes from all directions. So that's a good thing. Because as an entrepreneur, we need feedback to improve what we do, and you get it for free. The curse is, if you don't know how to filter those feedback, then it becomes confusing and distracting. So I don't have a good answer for that, because it's really how you grow as an entrepreneur. Over time, you have to fail and stand back up and then start learning. Okay? These This is BS, like, I don't need to listen to this kind of feedback, or this is really good, because it's raw. They're not telling me what to do. But they're just describing how they feel. That's exactly the kind of feedback that I'm looking for. So, yeah, you just have to kind of observe and internalize whatever you're taking it never take things at face value. That's my biggest lesson. Don't just do what people tell you to do. Yeah, that's
Dylan Schmidt:a great, that's a that's, that's a great piece of advice, too. Yeah. Because I could see that, you know, personally, like if I was to ask someone, what they liked or disliked, or their thoughts, opinions, maybe about something I've made. And then they tell me something. And I'm like, Okay, let me go in this direction, you know, and it's like, that's the opinion, or maybe feedback of one. And I'm like, now I'm spending hours picking something, that maybe one person, I'm like, wait, I should have followed my gut on that. And maybe ask two more people. Because one more person would have told me maybe don't go down that alley. That's great. So this sounds obvious. But I have to ask on behalf of people that I know in the audience that are wanting to get more into Twitter, it's not too late to grow, or start on Twitter from zero, right.
Kevon Cheung:So started 18 months ago and of 2020. So if I can do it, you can do it. And I like to think that it's not so much about like, don't look at Twitter as an existing community, where it's a room crowded of people, and then you need to squeeze yourself in like a concert, right? Like, oh, my God is so dull, I cannot get myself in. It's not like that is it's actually just a platform. And the goal of your goal is actually to find a few like minded people, so that you can chat with them, hang out with them, and start observing what people do, and start getting more data points to build what ever you want to build. So if you look at it, from this perspective, is never too late. Because you don't care about what people do. You don't care about whether the room is crowded. You just need to find your I call it tripe. On Twitter.
Dylan Schmidt:Yeah. And, and to find that usually just search topics that you might be interested in. Personally, like if, if I know some, some podcasts, for example, or podcast hosts, Bill, maybe search other podcasts and networks on there. But in reality, they maybe are like a sports podcast, and they should maybe be going after more sports fans. How do you approach that? Like finding your community?
Kevon Cheung:Yeah, this is the hardest thing because I talk to or I help so many entrepreneurs, and most of them, like they would put in in my survey saying that my top struggle is finding like minded people to connect with. So the key is really what you said, like search, let you really need to put into effort to find people like it's not going to be, hey, you type in top influencers, top creators, I should follow on Google, and then you get a list of 20. And then you follow them. If you can do that everyone can do that, then it's not really helpful. So I think I in the book, I lay out a few ways to do it. I think the most important one is you have to kind of understand the kind of people you're trying to serve. I don't mean you need to be ultra specific. In the beginning. For example, when I started out, I didn't know what I wanted to talk about. I was just okay. I like to talk about entrepreneurship. So I went from a funded background to now bootstrap So, okay, entrepreneurship plus bootstrapping. That's my kind of tribe. So I just kind of define it that way. And I think about okay, so who is the top five influential people who are talking about this topic who has an audience of bootstrap entrepreneurs, and I just like start being around them. So in the book I talk about if you want to create your own tribe, you have to first be in other people's tribe. So I just get in there and be helpful around them. And as you reply meaningfully on Twitter instead of shitposting, instead of saying, just like I agree, or what you said, is great, you really, you know, add some value to the tweets, people notice. And then they start seeing a Cavani is actually really helpful in this entrepreneur community. And over time, they, you know, they follow you back, they stopped listening to you, and then you build up the trust. And you know, what, you started to be elected as a leader, because you have shown the qualities, so you don't say you're the leader, you show it and people say, Oh, you are the leader. So over time, if you're committed, if you're serious about this, it takes a long time, it took me like three months to get to 600 followers, but then, you know, it accelerate at some point, because of the word of mouth. So that's how I would do it.
Dylan Schmidt:I love that. And I think that skill is transferable to that, that skill of actually doing meaningful replies to people. Rather than just saying, like, love that or some generic, you know, reply. Because I think, you know, I think that just transfers in his stands out so much, you know, when you leave something thoughtful, and actually engaging of someone who is sharing maybe a thought in their head, or putting some work into a tweet, or whatever it is, it's like, I know, it stands out when someone is like, oh, there's an actual meaningful response here, other than just like a thumbs up emoji, which, you know, sometimes that's all people get, which is okay, but I think there's transferable there. So one thing I found difficult is, and I know a lot of people experienced this, and, and I know you've started here, too. So when starting from, say no audience that say you got a blank, blank page blank, it says, whatever the little placeholder text says on Twitter, like, what would you like to tell the world? Maybe something like that? What what do you tell the world when you feel like you've got nobody following you yet, but you want to start posting? What do you say?
Kevon Cheung:By the way, can you hear my baby crying?
Dylan Schmidt:It's all I mean, just 20 normal zoom, you know?
Kevon Cheung:All right. My wife is taking care of that. Um, okay. So in the beginning, you don't know what to talk about? Yeah, I think, let's assume you don't have a niche yet. You don't know what exactly you stand for. I think the best part is just like learn in public, like whatever you are doing and learning on that day, just kind of summarize it in a short tweet and make it helpful to other people. So it doesn't have to be a threat, like writing blog posts. But it can be as simple as like, Hey, I realize, instead of one pricing point, you can put up three pricing, pricing, something like that, and it gets me some result. That's a good learning for your buddies out there. So you can start sharing your journey. I think it's the most natural, and a lot of people pretend to be expert, when they first start, like, you have to do this, you have to do that. No, like when you have 23 followers, your words are not strong enough. But if you're sharing your stories, it makes sense. You have 23 followers, and you're just being yourself. So that would be one way. But the second thing is gather some friends around you. I think a lot of people don't understand that. Audience building has a step by step approach as well. So the first step is actually not looking for followers. You're not, you're not there yet to look for followers, you look for friends, you look for buddies. And as long as you have like 50 or maybe even 30 Close buddies on Twitter, you're going to have so much fun. Because, well, it doesn't matter. When you share your story, your buddies are going to jump in to engage with you, right? So you get the replies you get the likes, you feel good about yourself, and someone who you want to be a follower might see that and they would jump in as well. So it starts from friends to followers and into other things. But it's a step by step approach.
Dylan Schmidt:I love that. And one thing I'll see too is it's almost like people will try to shoulder to shoulder with like Elon Musk right away. Like it's like they have maybe no followers or something and it's like, well, I'm only gonna follow really big accounts and maybe like, tweet what they would tweet, you know? Or maybe not Elon Musk, but like someone you know, like that. But I love how you're so focused on relationships over another way, I don't know if something about the way your process is just very organic, very as broccoli approach, broccoli.
Kevon Cheung:Okay, I guess I'm the broccoli. I guess maybe because I'm a new father. So my daughter is like 17 months old now. So I have to be mindful about what I do. Like, previously, when I was running startups, I had so much time as a married person. So I just tried to do a lot, but I don't see the results. But now as a new dad, I have to pick the right things to focus on. And, you know, when I think about who I follow on Twitter, not who follow you, who I follow, why follow Elon Musk, like his words is not going to help my presence. I would much rather follow a person with 50 followers, but then he or she, or they are just going to be so engaging with me, like we can have fun growing together. So I just think about things this way, a bit more mindful, intentional, a bit more long term as well.
Dylan Schmidt:Love that. Love that. And I see a lot of creators just get burned out, you know, and overwhelmed with social networks, because it feels like so much work and effort to have like just a little bit of payoff, or whatever their payoff they see is whether that's more business, or more followers, which don't really equate to business most of the time, depending on their business. But and that's I guess that's what I love about Twitter is like how easy it is. It's not like Instagram, where everything needs to look beautiful. It's not like tick tock where everything needs to be flashy and keep someone's attention for 10 seconds. And it's not like YouTube, you'd have to put in 30 hours for one tweet. You know, thankfully, thankfully, it's very organic, I guess in a way, I've struggled with LinkedIn personally, because their their user interface is just, it stresses me out. It's like everything's notification, there's bots, sending me cold DMS, and there's like, hashtags, and just a lot going on. And the more I look at Twitter, the more on like this platform makes so much sense across the board. And there's there's a lot going on there that I feel like is untapped in across the board. Because it's got something for everybody, regardless of what niche you know, or what topic one might be interested in. So what are some of the ways you recommend or even one way that you recommend people stay consistent? I really liked the idea about having friends on there, because it's something to drive you back to the app if you want to do that. So I know some people will close it and then forget to open it. But if you are following friends on they're going to be much more likely to check in on their What do you have any tips on like consistency, staying consistent on there?
Kevon Cheung:Too much. I talk about this all the time, because I think I'm quite proud of my way of using Twitter I've never stressed out never burn out when I disappear from Twitter, and no one knows people still think Cavani is always on Twitter. And I'm just quite proud of that. So I can share a few tips. I think the first one is, we all fall for that, like I'm on my phone now. And the notification keeps popping out. And I feel the urge to reply right away, like this person is waiting for me to talk back. That's not true. No one ever waits for a reply, right? We just move on with our lives. So I'm trying to practice where I don't get back in real time. Or I don't even tweet in real time. So everything is quite asynchronous for me. Let's talk about tweeting. First, I schedule my tweets. I take ideas down any point of time. And every Monday I sit down for actually I spent quite a lot of time, 90 minutes, because I'm serious about Twitter, 90 minutes, every Monday, looking through my idea bank, and just turn them into tweets, and then schedule them for the rest of the week. And roughly I do two to three a day. And then one on the weekend. So you can see it's like 1214 15 tweets a week. And because I have all these ideas, it's so easy to write 10 to 15 tweets, and also because I'm talking about my work. So it's so easy. Oh, I can just like think about what I need to do next for my book and ask people hey, I have paperbag audio book, website, all these things. What do you think I should do next? What's important to you? Right? And then people would reply to me so scheduled tweets. Don't feel that you need to get on Twitter and write something that doesn't work. And then reply, don't reply in real time just you reply, because you need to show respect when people respect you, right? So reply, but don't need to do it real time, I'm in a very different timezone, like my audience is usually in America and in Europe, but I'm in Asia, so I'm not going to stay up 10pm 11pm Just to reply to people, what I do is, I just wait until the next morning. And if they see it, they see it. If they don't see it, they don't see it. It doesn't really matter. And at, like, let's say I reply to 10 people, if three see that, they know that I respect them. Right. That's enough for me to live through for the rest of my life. What else? I think what else? Okay, I'm stuck here. But let me go back to the idea of jotting down ideas at any given point of time. I think most people struggle when they go on Twitter and have nothing to say, the problem is not You're not good enough. The problem is, everyone needs to prepare some ideas to bring to the room, and then you focus on writing. So yeah, that helps me the most.
Dylan Schmidt:I like that. I love that, actually. And it reminds me to as like a consumer, when I'm consuming media or content. When I go on Twitter, for example. I don't know what's scheduled or what's not scheduled, like I can't tell. And to me, you know, it just looks like everyone is brilliant, and writing immediately. So I'm like thinking, you know, men, people always have good ideas. At any moment. I would love to have that too. And I don't have that. But then, you know, I recently started scheduling. And I'm like, a seems like the only way but hearing you say that, too. Makes me feel way more human. And it does feel organic. What do you use to capture your ideas? Do you just use? Do you have like one place where you will capture ideas as they come?
Kevon Cheung:Yeah, so I have this like hacky way of doing it, because I use Slack on mobile. So I'm not on any slack communities because it's too overwhelming. So my slack is just for me. So I would write the idea down right away, because it's so fast, that can open in like two seconds. And I can right now and then I use like a something like a Zapier to connect to my notion table. So all the ideas go right in, because I need a database environment. So I can like archive, whatever I tweeted already, or like just move things around. That's about it slack and notion. So you
Dylan Schmidt:can use Zapier to connect slack to notion.
Kevon Cheung:Yes, so I actually didn't use Zapier because I max out my free account, I use something called integral net, which is now called make, I think, and their free plan. So basically, I have an account just for this. And it's enough, and it's
Dylan Schmidt:great that I love I love hearing how that idea is transferred. Because it is like, you know, personally, my best ideas come at the most dangerous times, like in the shower, or while I'm driving. And I'm like, I can't do anything with this right now.
Kevon Cheung:It's, it's no you can I jump out of shower to write down my idea.
Dylan Schmidt:I'm always just like, I'm gonna remember this. And then they just drift. So it goes down the drain is whatever. It gets washed away. But I love that slack idea. Because yeah, I can't use Slack, you bring up an interesting point and something that I have always dealt with, I guess, since I can remember, I guess mobile devices and apps being more open, or in our lives is like I don't have notifications for text messages or anything happen. Like because I'm like, I'll look at my phone enough to know that like, if there's a text or if something important come through, I'll see it. But I don't have any notifications. One time. I'm a bit more active on Instagram these days. And I messaged a lady. It was like a Sunday night here. And it was in the evening. And I saw her her it's F I've known him for a while on Instagram, but I saw that she was in a YouTube video by someone else. So I was like, Oh, I took a screenshot and send it to her. And she replied back to me like that is so awesome. And I know she was on the east coast here in the US and she went back and I'm like, okay, she's like, I'm gonna go back to sleep now. And I'm like, No, I'm like, I didn't want to wake you up with this screenshot. You know, that was my intention. And I was just like, I felt so bad because I don't use social like I don't have any Instagram notifications or Twitter. or anything, but I felt so bad. So I'm like, Hmm, you know, I realized if I send someone a DM, it might pop up on their phone, not what I think of because I don't use my phone that way. But I still get stressed out when I like open up an app and I see unread notifications and stuff. And hearing you just say, kind of how you practice that is is just really interesting to me, because you're so right, like, you don't have to respond in the moment. Things can, you know, no one's waiting for the reply. If they reply, is that important than the public deserves a phone call or something?
Kevon Cheung:Or the weather is hard. Yeah, it's really open and playing in our body, right? So I have to admit, I still struggle with this. Like, during lunch during breakfast during dinner, I still find myself like checking Twitter, when I'm with my family. But it really takes tons of reminder, hey, I'm here with my family, just for this one hour, let's put the phone away. So I would like drop the phone really far away. But, you know, I struggle this day in day out. So I don't want anyone to think that I've this figure it out. No, yeah. Yeah. Once the reminder.
Dylan Schmidt:And I don't really know anyone who does or has admitted or has said that they have mastered it, I guess, you know, but it is this definitely seems like one of those, like, next level, mastery is like being able to master the notifications, you know, like, because even in the app, you know, like, they it's like, is it a message? Is it as sometimes it'll be like, you might be interested in this content? I'm like, What? No, I didn't even my heart rate went up to see this notification. And it wasn't even something about that I needed to know, you know. So yeah, it is. I guess that's the other stressful part of something like maybe like Twitter, or people that are like, I want to get in Twitter, but I don't want one more notification in my life is like, it kind of comes down to just probably getting better at handling notifications in general. Yeah. And that constant battle? Yeah.
Kevon Cheung:Yeah, I feel like it's not so much about the platform, or the app is how you take control of your life.
Dylan Schmidt:Yeah, and I think, I mean, it sounds like, especially with your new book, it sounds like the talking about building a Twitter presence. But you can you can use those same principles across different platforms, I would imagine, right?
Kevon Cheung:I think the fundamentals Yes. Because, you know, connections is not just online, actually. Offline. It's all well,
Dylan Schmidt:in real life. Yeah.
Kevon Cheung:Yeah. Are you joking, or?
Dylan Schmidt:Okay, but I just, it's, it seems more, I guess, more rare these days, in some ways, because, right, because things are so virtual, but
Kevon Cheung:it's, it's coming back, like in real life, you go out for happy hour, you get coffee, you get dinner with people online is the same, like people. Somehow people think online, everything can scale, and you can just tap someone's shoulder Hey, Dylan, I launched your book, can you promote it for me? No, it doesn't work that way. You still need to, you know, slowly build up that relationship. But instead of buying dinner, buying beer is about helping. So it's very direct, like, hey, Dylan, you have a great tweet, let me reply to you, so that you get more exposure. It's that simple. So I don't understand why not more people do it that way. But back to your question. Fundamentals definitely apply. But you know, I get very specific into the examples. My book is actionable. So I have a lot of thought provoking questions to you. I have a lot of examples. I show you how I do it. And they're very Twitter specific. So. So I don't want to give people the wrong impression that hey, this might work on Twitter. Mike, this might work on LinkedIn. Yeah, this is very Twitter. Yeah.
Dylan Schmidt:Very Twitter driven. Yeah. Awesome. And where can people find your book? Find joy in chaos?
Kevon Cheung:Yeah, so right now is on the website, find joy in chaos.com. So I'm working on the paperback audio book. I want to chop everything into small pieces to roll it out. I'm not the kind of person who like, want to launch a big thing because I understand. You know, it takes time for things to get so I just, yeah, roll it out. Whatever I can first. Awesome.
Dylan Schmidt:I'll make sure to link find joy and chaos.com in the episode description, so you can pick up Kip Allen's book there. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Kevon Cheung:Ya know, Dylan, you're a great host. I have a very great conversation with you. Thank you, thank you.
Dylan Schmidt:I'd like to thank my guest, Yvonne Chung again for joining me on Digital Podcaster today, please see the episode description and show notes for A Link took Yvonne on Twitter and a link to his new book. Find joy in chaos. That's all I got for you this week. Thank you for listening. If there were any parts that stood out to you that you particularly enjoyed, I would love to know about them. Please just send me an email at hello at Digital podcaster.com That's all I got for now. I will see you next week.