You are listening to Digital Podcaster with Dylan Schmidt, your host today. My guest that I'm interviewing is Landon Popeuren. You're gonna love this episode. If you want to take an inside look at the content creation process from someone who has successfully managed multimillion dollar ad budgets. Landon has also launched multiple businesses, and he's been experimenting lately with the whole process of being on camera, similar to myself. And I think you're going to have some really interesting insights on how to grow an audience. So in 60 days, Landon went from zero to 4500 followers on TikTok, he generated 1000 new email subscribers, and he landed his first brand deal. And on top of that, he's sharing everything he knows with us in this episode. Landon, thank you so much for joining me on Digital Podcast here today. Yeah, I'm super excited to be here. I loved the chat when I had you on my show, and I am super excited to come on chat today. I like when people ask me about myself, so this is the perfect platform for it. Yeah, so much I want to say and ask, but why I had to just hop into the podcast or hit record is because I just wanted to say this and then ask you, like, wait, this is podcast material. Let me hit record. So people that listen to the beautiful, wonderful people that listen to digital podcaster, the smartest people in the world, the greatest people, but people that listen to Digital podcasters, some people have not made a dollar through making content or just like online, some people have made a lot of money online. It's quite a variety that I seem to attract. And some people that make money online, just because they've made money online, maybe they feel like they have to work 50 times as hard to maybe extract $1 out of a sale because maybe they're newer at it, or maybe they're just, like, hitting they're just hitting these blind spots, these obstacles that they're trying to overcome. Before we really hop in, I'm sure people that are listening, if they're binging the podcast too, just coming in, do you mind sharing just a little bit briefly about who you are and what you do, how you help people? Yeah, that's a very broad question. I guess I would identify myself as a digital marketing strategist or kind of whatever the term or flavor or accreditation of the month is that's 15 years ago it was Internet marketer. But I've been involved in kind of the marketing realm in one shape or another for 15 to 17 years through a number of my own businesses, working with agencies, doing freelance work, doing consulting work. So I would say kind of like, the biggest thing that I help people with is really figuring out how to kind of create sales systems for their businesses, generate leads, monetize their lists, generate sales construct, kind of like sales strategies for their businesses. And I do that through a number of different ways, through direct, kind of like behind the scenes work. But I love educating and I love coaching. So I've done a lot of one to one consultation and coaching with people and trying more and more to share and educate through means like podcasting and social media and things over the years of trying to step back. From just being exclusively behind the scenes to be being a little bit more of a brand myself to try and help others do the same. And we have such a similar background in that way too, of like, I have a marketing background and always been behind the scenes. I've always helped people elevate their message, get their message out there. And then June 2021, I just had probably sitting on the couch or something, like, why don't I just start something and started an instagram? Didn't show my face. And you just were so similar in that way not that long ago. You started your own, right? Do you mind sharing a little bit about that? Yeah, I've kind of been behind the scenes for the better part of my life. And even when I had a very brief period of time where my wife and I owned a gym and I just always kind of was like, she's the people person, I'm not the people person. People don't want to see my face. I'll just do the marketing behind the scenes, kind of be the person behind the keyboard. And I did have a podcast in 20 17, 20, 18, 20 19, and then it kind of just sat on the shelf and collected a lot of dust. And then this past year, I believe it was December, just kind of like yourself, just kind of got this inkling within me that was like, no, it's time for me to start to put my face out there, really start to make a dedicated effort to becoming more of a forefront, just trying to lead by example. And I just know that so many other people struggle with being able to produce, put themselves out there and doing it. Just wanting to educate and share my story and kind of the forefront of where I was creating started with kind of like podcasting and TikTok were kind of like the primary platforms where I kicked things off. Did you struggle with it at first when you started putting yourself out there? It's kind of a difficult question. I would say, like, yes and no, because I really followed a big pull of inspiration and motivation that I had. It was kind of around having these feelings and then kind of like the chat GBT was like just getting launched and I'm just a total nerd at heart. So it was the ability to play around with things and test it and just share it as it was going made it really easy. And the other part of it was relieving the pressure of needing to accomplish anything with what I was producing made it a lot easier as well. I didn't have expectations of monetizing it at first. I didn't have expectations of going viral or anything like that. So relieving those expectations on the creation process made it a lot easier to get started and maintain some consistency with. And then throughout your we're talking a short period here. It's funny, I feel like I've been doing digital podcaster for a long time, and then, of course, if I zoom out just a little bit, it's like on the blip of a timeline, it's nothing, which is like, oh yeah, it's such a great reminder to slow down and just kind of enjoy how it's going. But we're looking at, of course, not like a huge snapshot of time here relative to your life, but it feels like creating content, sometimes it can go by fast and slow at the same time. Did you hit like how knowing what you know and then hitting the publish button, did you find yourself also hitting a low or any type of like this maybe isn't, for me, anything like that? I would say probably about three or four months into consistently putting out between, let's say, add on average, like three posts a day across all of the social media platforms. I definitely started to hit a point where it started to get a little bit more difficult, and that's just because I was starting to like my as a marketer, my brains going into, okay, what am I going to do with this? Where should I should be niching down into something. I should be trying to figure out how to capture this and build that. And that's kind of where those expectations started to get in. And I had a few posts that for me, went viral for me. I think it's Sean Cannell from Think Media talks about viral for me, and 200,000 views, 100,000 views, that's viral for me. And then all of a sudden, getting 200 was kind of like a punch in the gut. And I've created some podcasts and some content around that just kind of talking about how it's so interesting watching those expectations change from just being super excited and then all of a sudden when we now are starting to expect something from it, how we interpret everything that's going on and our energy going into it completely changes. So it definitely caused me to do a little bit of self reflection and kind of take a little bit of a step back and go, okay, why am I doing this? I don't need to try and hit a certain amount of subscribers or followers in the next three months. Like, I had amassed more followers on TikTok than I had on any social media platform up until that point in my life in like 60 days. So just starting to be a lot more appreciative for what I had already. Created and you went from zero to 4500 followers on TikTok, is that correct? Yeah, which I don't follow too closely, but I see people that have been posting for a lot longer have a lot less success. Do you feel like as a marketer, there's like this expectation a little bit that you mentioned? The word expectation made me think of that you're supposed to have maybe a leg up on the advantage. Similar with the podcast, people are like, Whoa, how many downloads? Do you find any of that expectation with yourself? Yeah, I think I have put very high expectations on myself for so many things because I've helped people do I've worked with six, seven, eight and nine figure businesses on marketing strategy. So it's like, I've helped them do this. We should be able to do it ourselves. But just understanding our own unique journey is so incredibly important. Really getting realistic with things, because it's like marketing out there preys on pains and problems and what we're feeling, so it's preying on what we're feeling on an emotional level. And we often do it ourselves when we're marketing our own products and services. Struggling to get past 200 views on your TikTok videos? That's all I see when I scroll my TikTok feed and I'm like, damn, all my videos have been at 200 views lately. So it's like we put those expectations on ourselves, but the marketing message reinforces it, so it can definitely be difficult to balance that at times. And speaking of videos struggling to get 200 views, I didn't intentionally plan this. You know, sometimes you can do stuff that feels like you orchestrated it, like, to concoct the perfect thing, and really, sometimes it just happens by accident. But speaking of, like, this is totally on topic, so I made a TikTok video. I was like, I'm going to record just a bunch real quick on my computer. This was maybe a month ago and I had my dog in here because I think we had someone over and my dog was just going a little crazy. And I have a French bulldog, which are popular on social media, probably more on Instagram, I guess. And so I was like, needed her to contain her, so I just put her on my lap and then I make a video, quick little TikTok, mentioning being stuck at 200 views because someone had commented that and I was like, I'll reply to it. And I mentioned Chat GBT because I asked Chatty BT. And I'm like, this is the trifecta. A French bulldog chat GBT. And getting stuck at 200 views on TikTok, you would think this would get more, and then it probably got like 200 views. And just thinking it's like, the more you know, it feels like the less you know sometimes too. With this game. Have you found that to be similar? Oh, totally. Like the Dunning Kruger effect of the less you know, you think you know, everything. The more I learn about marketing, the more I'm like, I know absolutely nothing. Like, I need to go back to school, get a degree in psychology, like, get my MBA, I need to take seven more courses. Learning is something that I'm always trying to do more of, but it's difficult. But I do think that there is something to be had of when, for me, I'm an overthinker. Like, I'm going to analyze things. And there are people that don't do that, that they can just click record. They don't care. They don't care what the result is. They can just go forward. And sometimes those people can almost have an advantage because they're simply doing well. Somebody else might be overthinking. They might have put out 25 while I spent all of that time just considering what I was going to do. And when I look at the people that have had the most success, even people that I was in Masterminds with, like, four years ago, five years ago, and I look at they stayed consistent with their podcast since that time, and now they have 700 episodes. And now they have people like Steven Kotler, new York Times bestselling author on their show. And I'm like, Man, I wonder what mine would have been like if I would have kept it going or if I would have started at that point. So it's just when I look back, it's just like that consistency with building a platform and an audience is so important and not trying to get too caught up in when we start because I've been not a victim, but I've found myself being like, it's too late. I wanted to be a millionaire by the time I was 30. I was really sad when I turned 30 and I wasn't a millionaire. And now it's just like, you always think, like, it's too late. So somebody I really love for that is, like, Gary Vaynerchuk talking about how he didn't start this until he was in his 30s before he put out his first post. And I was just listening to can't remember who it was. I believe it was Samuel Jackson. Didn't start his acting career, like, not got big, but, like, didn't even start his foray into acting until he was 44. So we have so much time ahead of us, and there's so much more to what we're doing than just actually getting followers and making money. So getting started is so important and just maintaining that consistency and trying to remove those expectations we're putting on ourselves. And do you find yourself adding more expectations the more, say, success, like, the more traction you get? Like, with more followers, more email subscribers, a brand deal, do you find, like, okay, wait, maybe I have to almost take this more serious. Maybe I do need to think about this because I'm a fellow overthinker as well. Yeah, I think it's like this constant process of things get added on and then we need to strip them away. It's like stuff gets added and we go, we go, we build some momentum, some expectations get added on, and we start to expect more results. And then we're like, okay, no, this isn't working for me. This isn't aligned. I don't feel good. I'm getting really tired and burnt out and we got to strip stuff away, simplify it. And then I feel like for me, I'm on this constant kind of roller coaster of that, like, things get added on and then it's like, it gets to a point and you start to strip it all back again. Because truly, I believe the simplest marketing is going to win. I'm such a firm believer in that, that we do not need things to be complicated in order to be successful. We just simply overcomplicate it because it gives us satisfaction in like, we're doing something. So it's like we're creating all these hyper sophisticated things and if we were just to have a really raw and honest conversation, it probably would have worked better. So, yeah, I totally see those things get added on and then I hit a point where I'm like, no, I need to simplify, I need to get rid of that. I need to consolidate these two podcasts into one. I don't need to post there and then it realigns me to start getting some momentum again. So how did you get just I was listening to I think it was your most recent marketing micro dose podcast, which you do daily. I was doing daily and then that was a little bit too difficult when I was spending like 8 hours recording 20 to 30 episodes and I was like, Holy, this is a lot of work. So it's coming out three times a week right now. Nice. Monday, Wednesday, Friday. Yeah, nice. Let me say I was listening to the most recent. I believe it's the most recent. Yeah, sure. It was the most recent. There was three things that you had mentioned that I was like, OOH, I would love to chat with you on kind of briefly on each one and just kind of like how you did it because I think it's such a nice thing to know and we can apply it to ourselves. But how did you go from zero to 4500 followers? And feel free to make it as obvious or non obvious because I'm sure whatever you say will be like, oh yeah, because it's the fundamentals at the end of the day, right? Yeah, totally. So the biggest thing that when I talked about and I think it's the same episode that you're talking about, was I really followed inspiration and it was a topic that I was excited to talk about. So I just leaned into that as hard as I possibly could and was like, I'm just going to just really go into just documenting this, talking about it, and really following that inspiration, but being very realistic with myself that I knew that it was not going to last forever. Like, okay, I'm super inspired. I'm like banging out like three posts in 30 minutes, like recording them, editing them, and posting them. And it's like, I know that this isn't going to last forever. This could last a year, it could last two weeks, but I'm just going to ride this wave as much as I can. And that is really what gave me that initial boost of momentum. And you talked about that too. I remember you saying, I know this isn't going to be in a forever thing, but it's a right now thing. So I'm just riding it. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that it's so important to lean into when we get that pull towards something. Because happiness is something that I think we forget about in this journey of being a creator, being a solopreneur, or an entrepreneur in this online business world. And I've been on the other side of it where we're doing so much, even at heights of making substantial amounts of money and just yearning for more and not feeling fulfilled in what we're doing. So when we are inspired, chase that and follow it because you don't know what it's going to lead to. It could have led to me just posting for two months, hanging it up and being like, this wasn't for me, but at least I gave it a try. And I think that's the biggest thing is that inspiration is going to fade. But when it's there, lean into it, take advantage of it and see what you're able to do with it. Does your inspiration today look different than how it did when you started? Oh yes, it sure does. From when I started that journey that you're referencing with TikTok, I just started to add in a whole bunch of stuff from Contracts and some freelance clients and then I started a second podcast and then I was trying to brought on an assistant for video editing and it has been just way too much. So I'm actually in the process right now of starting to strip away a lot of what I had brought on because the inspiration has faded, I'm feeling less inspired to create. I went a few weeks where I wasn't actually recording anything, but luckily I had a big bank of content that I had created. So I was able to still put content out. But I do enjoy producing content. So I want to get back to feeling that passion again. So now I know I need to create space. I need to strip some of those extras that were accumulated during that time and get myself back to a point where it is fun again. Because I think that is something in my own personal life that let's say probably the last maybe two years has become really prevalent with me, is really trying to get back to just being really happy and excited about what I'm doing every day. Nice. Yeah. I think there's something so fascinating. Of course, you look at successful people, what do they always talk about? And I say successful, like people that have been doing their craft for a long time. And they always talk about when they were coming up, when they were getting started, all these different things, and they're reminiscing it and it's kind of like through the lens of they've been doing it for a long time, probably years and years. And I know we have different areas of our life where we've been doing our craft for a long time, but there's something to me so interesting about yourself. I find myself the same, where it's like starting from zero and it's still being kind of fresh. It's not like, do you remember ten years ago when you started? It's pretty recent. And you have this awareness of marketing around it. So, you know, kind of like you've worked with people that have been doing have their face on stuff for years and then you add your own face on it and it's like, different and you're kind of like in a different perspective of it, but then you have this multi perspective of it. And I just find that so interesting because it's like, yeah, it's zero to 4500, 500 followers, and whatever numbers it's not the actual number of followers that I think is interesting. It's like the fact that you went from zero to one because that takes the wheels really turning versus going from 4500 to 4700 is not a significant jump. 4500 to 11,500 is not a huge jump. Really, it's much easier to do that. But to go from like zero to 10 to 100 yeah, 13 was, like. A vivid moment for me. I woke up, I was like, meditating. It was like 430 in the morning. And I opened up my TikTok and I saw like, 13 new followers and I was like, oh my God, I literally had, like, a tear come down my face. I was like, people are actually listening to what I have to say. And for me, that's more fun than 4000 to 4500. It's just those little moments. And I think it's so important to take that in and recognize how important the smallest, subtlest, sometimes the most intangible things are. It's not the paycheck like it could be. Like, I just recently started selling, like, a new little mini course I created. And like, that first sale that I just was like, hey, I'm just going to see if people even want this. Put out a nine word email, sent someone a link and it was like, someone bought it for $7. And I was like, yes. It's just, like, so satisfying. And those little parts of the journey for me I find so rewarding. And I'm not driven by money. When I trace back every major decision pivot I've made in business, it's clear that I'm not driven by money. I may think I'm driven by money and want to attain more money, but the decisions I make don't line up with that. And those little things are so fun and so satisfying, which really I think are what keep me going. Yeah, because it's like the money almost like the followers in a way. It's so fleeting. It's like you get there and then it's like, oh, maybe it's like a little bit more or maybe a little bit more. What I love, and we're similar in and why I always love talking with you is that we can bounce between you've mentioned Gary Vaynerchuk, like he talks about I don't know if he talks about it much these days, but the clouds and dirt analogy, like kind of being in both. And I feel like you and I, we can bounce between the two so easily. Talking about more abstract ideas, talking about feelings, approaches and things like that. And then like tactical marketing strategies, which I just love being able to bounce between the two. So when it comes to, I guess tactical ish or just like how did you move? Or maybe I shouldn't even say move because that would set it up. Like I even know what you're going to say. You generated 1000 email subscribers. Was that from social media? Yeah. So that was largely started from social media. So I'm a very big proponent of marketing is simple, like build an email list and sell to it and to focus on building an audience before you need to monetize it. So literally, I'm just always experimenting on myself so that's like so much of this stuff with content creation and it's like literally just was following the data on stuff I was creating organically. And I had a couple of posts around Chat GPT that did super well. And I was like, hey, people are really interested in this. Clearly. Because anytime I did anything about Chat GPT, it did substantially better. So I created a little lead magnet and then I created a post about the lead magnet. That post did well, generated hundreds of email subscribers up to probably, I don't know if I was quite all 1000 organically. And then I took that, I turned it into an ad on TikTok and I was generating leads for like getting people onto my email list. So just super simple things when I really think about it, especially when I look at some clients that I've done business with in the past and they're spending$10, $15, $25 for a lead, depending on the niche that they're in. And here I am building email subscribers for like that list is like 1500 people because I just have $10 a day that just go into building that on Facebook. And it's just one of those things where but it all started from creating content that people were resonating with and actually engaged with and not trying to guess what people were hopefully going to be wanting to take action with. And how did your first brand deal come about? So my first brand deal was just organically getting somebody reaching out to me, and now I've had two organizations reach out to me for brand deals on Chat GPT. So just like, that inspiration of being like, hey, Chat GBT is super cool. I'm a nerd, I love this stuff, just playing around with it. Even today, I'm researching stuff around Agile Scrum methodology and I'm like, at an advertising agency who is responsible for the strategy and just like, talking to Chat GBT like, it's my buddy, but I just got another one for another prompting course. So I got another brand deal that I just signed this week. But that all started just from creating content. And the truth of the matter is that influencer marketing is very good for businesses to grow. It's not only about running paid advertising, paid growth and acquisition is largely coming from these people reaching out to micro influencers that like me, that I might have a post that gets 50,000 views on it. People see that, people go follow the brand, people go buy the course, sign up for their email list. And so that's how that came about. So I just signed another deal, so I'm going to be starting that one. So super excited about that one. Nice. So did they reach out to you through email? Through TikTok, actually. Was the first touch point, yeah. Nice. And you didn't even put it out there? Like a call to action, right? Did they just say saw your content and then they messaged you? Yeah, pretty much. Like, I haven't done any active outreach around it, which it gets me thinking, like, I wonder if I did actively reach out to some people in that space to get more brand deals. But, yeah, it's definitely something that when I started this journey, was not on my radar initially, but very quickly started to come up onto my radar around indirect ways to monetize my audience where I'm not having to be. This in this service based industry of coaching or on a monthly retainer with somebody being able to do things like brand deals or affiliate marketing and then just have revenue that's coming in with either doing nothing or very little effort of literally. I recorded the first video for the brand deal and it was one take on my phone. Because I feel like we're similar in the approach to marketing and like, authenticity. Like, how do you approach, say, a brand reaches out to you? You know, obviously it's probably not like an alcohol brand that's like, hey, we really need Landon to promote this tequila we got. It's probably obviously aligned with what they think your audience is. But what's your thought process around a brand reaches out? Are you like, does this brand align with me? Do you mind. Sharing a little bit about that. No, it's pretty much, is this brand going to pay me? No, I'm just kidding. It is a very large here. Exactly. Very early. I feel like I'm not going to advertise something that I think is complete crap, but at the end of the day, it is a brand deal. It's going to have a sponsored thing on the post. So there's like a fine line between would I sell this as my own versus I am being paid to talk about this. So as long as there isn't any massive disconnect with me and my integrity, it's something I'd likely pursue for being somebody reaching out to me. So these are things for Chat, GPT and AI and it's like about helping people craft better prompts. So definitely something that I'm like, okay, yeah, that's cool, we can do that. Nice. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm the worst at the brand stuff because I'll overthink it and then I'm just like, I'd rather talk about it for free. I'll leave money on the I'm sure I'm leaving plenty of money on the table right now. I'd rather talk about it for free and talk about it however the heck I want than have any input for anybody because I like, also not talking great about a product if I don't think it's great. Totally. And there's absolutely people that do that as well. Not that I know personally, but I've heard people talk about stuff where giving not a glowing review of something can sometimes also come across more authentic and almost drive more business. Because obviously if you have 14 followers, it may not be as much to leverage, but you get some people that have larger brands that if they give a somewhat dishonest review of something just because they're getting paid, it can really negatively impact the brand that they've built. So it's things that you do have to consider. It's not only about that short term, like, yes, I got $100 for a post. Like, I'm going to retire. Like, no. And also at the same time, one post on TikTok when you don't have a massive following probably isn't going to sabotage your brand, but as things grow, things change. But it's things to consider that you don't only have to talk about this thing being like the greatest thing since sliced bread, being honest, talking about some of the flaws, but also some of the positives and still linking back to it are still ways to promote a brand or to promote an affiliate product or whatever it might be. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think when I think of brand deals or things like that, I'm like, but I don't want to let them down or something. I want to make it positive for them. And for me, I'm like, I don't know if it'll be positive, but I like how you say that because that makes a ton of sense. It's got my brain spinning. So now I'm like, watch, there's just all this money. I just start being cut. I go far to the other side because I try to work on moderation as far as just, like, in anything because it's so easy to go one way or the other, and I just become like a total cash grab for everything. You start seeing me do deals for the most ridiculous stuff, selling, like, knockoff air pods and stuff, doing, like full on QVC. Don't tempt me with a good time. Landon, where do you see yourself going with what you're doing? Because obviously you've got traction now, but things have changed from when you first started. This feels like I'm going to say it generically just because it's kind of comically funny, but where do you see yourself in the next six months? In the next six months? Probably not in a massively different position than I am now. Likely stripping things away so I can really kind of get back into that pocket with creation. My longer term goal with creating is to be able to generate money through things like brand deals, affiliate marketing, so that I can simply educate and give knowledge away for free. I really do have a deep desire to help people, so that's really kind of what the larger kind of grand vision is. I love chatting. I got a text from a friend of mine, and he's like, I'm struggling setting up some UTM parameters for tracking my ads. And I'm like, hit me with it. Let me help. Those are the conversations that get me excited. And I don't want to be like, no, I'm $1,000 an hour, or some ridiculous thing like that. So I do just want to be able to put more information out. And I know for me personally, I need to be in a good place from an energetic point of view and a lifestyle point of view and a happiness place to be able to consistently produce good content. So it's going to be stripping away some of those things that built up, that got me really busy and starting to lose a little bit of that inspiration. And that's probably going to be the course of the next six months for me, is getting back to a place of just being able to just consistently crush content because I just love doing it. Got it. And some of those things that you have to strip away, are those just like, tasks that you've taken on, like duties and whatnot? Yeah. So it's going to be things that I kind of added because it was a feeling of an expectation I should be doing this, or this could potentially make me some money, or this is going to help me grow faster when it's in reality, they're not actually helping. They're being counterproductive because it's slowing me down on everything else that I'm doing. Some of it is like some side projects that I brought on, like even some paying work that I'm going to turn down because it's pulling me away from things that really do make me happy. And if I think of I'm only actually doing it because it's making me a little bit of money, those aren't the decisions that I want to be making moving forward. So a few kind of like a hand, like a bag, a mix of things that are going to be stripped away over the next probably three to six months to get back into that place again. It feels like I just had one of these flashes of like, this is what maturity feels like. Because I remember 24 marketing, everything was just like it's also kind of the sign of the times, like, ten years ago, but like, hustle, just go, just do it. Just everything as much as you possibly can. And then now it's like 30s is like, how can I work smarter, not harder? Because I found such results when I could just take a moment and pause. Yeah. I don't know if it's just like, literally things have changed or if it's the people that I'm paying attention to now, but I absolutely agree that marketing in your 20s versus your 30s, it's like a realization of what truly matters. But the people that I surround myself with now, everybody is slowing down. Everybody is simplifying. Everybody's making less top line revenue and increasing their profit margin and having smaller teams versus bigger teams. So that's definitely the direction that I'm going, is a lot of simplification or trying to continue to grow with that in mind, without overcomplicating things. It's not easy, but for me, I'm getting older. Little things, like, if I stand too long, my back hurts. I got to go to the chiropractor and the physiotherapist. I feel like that's how my business is at as well. I get tired quicker. I can't work 14 hours, days like I did when I was 20. Those days are gone. So it's like my approach to business is drastically different than when it was when I was younger. Yeah. I wonder how much it has to do with the amount of consumption too, or just the amount of content being produced. Because I don't know about you, but it's so easy to get overwhelmed if I open TikTok and then I start seeing a strategy and I'm like, whoa, because they'll hook you in and it's like, oh, this is the one strategy you should be doing that changed that 20 X star. And I try to not really cover that on here. And I think you do a great job of not having this sense of FOMO while educating and sharing your journey, while not making me feel like I've just been electrocuted with a million different ideas that I need to go implement. And it just feels like I don't know if I just think about it. A lot of people are just overwhelmed. Feels like a lot of is an easy word for, I'm sure, a lot of people to say right now. Yeah, I agree. It's not easy though, because it's a message that people are looking for. And when you are overwhelmed, that message hits and you pay attention to it, so it gets abused. So more people create it and more people mirror and make other videos that are the same strategy as that. So it's like people want the tactic, they don't want the principles of what makes things work. What's going to get somebody views or followers or money right now is always going to be sexier than the stuff that's going to make people money in five years from now. But it's kind of like fitness where I come from, a fitness background, and it's very much the same where it's like, no, you can just walk to get 10,000 steps. You don't got to do like a hit class and a spin class and all these crazy things and you can just eat more vegetables. You don't got to go and do keto or do this crazy fast. You don't have to go from zero to 100. But those things of like, lose £10 in ten days are the sexy things that capture everybody. That is just in a place where that message is exactly what they're looking for. They want the quick fix. And it's no different in business. When times are tough, you're just starting out. You got to put food on the table, you got to pay rent. It's very easy to get consumed by those messages. So as long as people are paying attention to those messages, people are going to be putting them out there. So it's like people like you and I, we just have to continue to try and put out good hearted messages around the principles, trying to share. There's more to this than just making money or just getting downloads. There's more to it. And then just know that when people are ready for that message, that they will find us. Love that. And I come from a fitness background too. What would you say are like the like, when you go into making a video, for example, or a podcast, this is actually for any type of content you're making. Say you're going to the gym, you got a bit of a plan, right? Or a bit of a mindset of how you're going to approach it. How do you approach content? It's a difficult question to answer. I don't know if I've ever thought about it that way in an on the spot metaphor, but when I'm approaching content without a metaphor, I generally try and be like a blend of just kind of like authenticity of what I want to be speaking about, merging it with what I'm trying to speak about, if that makes sense. I could go down the route of endless hours of research, content topics, all of those things. But I don't usually find myself needing to do that. And for somebody that is complete writer's block, there's lots of tools out there like answer the public or Google searches, Facebook groups, comments, all of those sorts of things. But I've been marketing for so long that I just have a fairly good idea of what to speak about. And then it's just a lot of just like, notes and just like, observations around what people are paying attention to, trying to follow what's doing better, other content. Like if I talking about marketing and I do something about building funnels or something about running Facebook ads, something about podcasting, something about AI, and over the course of, let's say, two months of creating that content, or three months of creating that content, for me, I noticed stuff around podcasting and stuff around AI does better. So starting to lean into more content around those things. But I do think that it's difficult because we sometimes need to just because something is getting us more views doesn't necessarily mean that we should pivot everything to it. We still have to make sure that content around that aligns with what we want to be producing and where we want to eventually take things. So a good example would be somebody in the fitness industry posting bikini selfies, and those get a lot more likes, so they're building up a following around that. But they actually sell like mindset work. And there's a complete disconnect between the audience that they're building versus the content that they post on mindset gets no likes. So there's a definite balance between those two. So trying to pay attention to those observational insights, but then always make sure that things are tied back to kind of like your North Star of what you're trying to achieve. That sounds like such a balance. Like when you put it like that, you described it so well. And I'm like, yeah. And when you say it, I'm like, whoa, this is a lot. What do you mean? I thought I just hit publish and it's like, yes, but reality, it's like behind the curtain. This is what it is. This is kind of a freestyle and you can say no. But I think it would be fun as a fellow overthinker, if you would indulge me in a quick little round of overrated or underrated. Yeah, absolutely. All right. This would be difficult for me. That's why I'm projecting on here TikTok, with the looming ban or possibly banned. We don't even know if it's going to be banned, overrated or underrated. I would say it would be overrated if you think of it's only going to be banned if it is banned in America. So there's still a lot of other people in the world that can still use TikTok. There's still Canada, there's still Latin America, there's still Europe where I think it got banned in Italy. But I think there's still a lot, and then obviously if people stop creating there, the attention is just going to go somewhere else. Instagram Reels, I would say, in my opinion, overrated right now. Instagram Reels to me is just TikTok videos. Great. This is true. Moving your email subscribers from moving your social media followers to become converting them. To email subscribers underrated. I feel like it's literally the one thing you should be focused on if you're building any audience on social media. Doing a daily podcast. I would say it's underrated because of the difficulty that it actually comes along with putting out. A daily podcast, adding fancy graphics to social media videos. I think it's overrated, and in the next few weeks, there's already AI tools that add gifs to your videos. Heist. Thank you for indulging me in that. I love that you just surprisingly like you were ready for them. Me, I would have just been pausing for a minute. So you have marketing microdose? Is there anything else besides following you online, which I'll make sure to link to in the episode description? Is there anything else that you want to share or that you want to let listeners know about? Yeah, the big ones would just be the podcast following me on probably TikTok is probably the best platform or YouTube. I got the Marketing Microdose podcast, the Make Me a Marketer podcast, which in the next three to six months may all of a sudden become one podcast. We don't know where the future of those two shows live, but yeah, just follow me on social media, listen to the podcast. If you have any questions you want to reach out for anything, please do not hesitate to send me a message. Thank you so much for joining me today, Leonard. Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. It was a great time.