Still Curious

Living life out of sequence, with engagement and experience leader Grace Liaw | S2E11

• Danu Poyner • Season 2 • Episode 11

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A conversation all about doing things in a different way and order than you’re supposed to. Not doing what you’re told, leaning into life’s sudden twists and turns, feeling behind, and taking flight, all while figuring out adulting and navigating the exciting challenges, complexity and expectations of cultural identity.

Key Topics:

  • Having a family at a young age and living life out of sequence with your career-focussed peers
  • Starting undergraduate studies at age 28 and catching up
  • Becoming a public school teacher and chafing against the system
  • Living and working in Shanghai, China as a Chinese-American
  • From educator to entrepreneur to engagement leader


About the Guest:  Grace Liaw is a connector, an educator, and a global citizen-in-progress.

Unlike most of her peers, Grace did not start her undergraduate studies until turning 28, when she began to pursue a degree in Human Ecology and Family Studies at Montclair State University. Finally fulfilling her dreams of being a teacher, Grace taught in New Jersey public schools for a couple of years and realized that public education was not for her. Later, she found herself living and working in Shanghai, China, for 6 years in various private schools. The experience of doing work, life, and family in a foreign land was absolutely transformative. Grace then pursued a Master of Education at Penn State for Curriculum and Instruction.

Now living in New York, Grace is designing and hosting events, creating experiences, and building relationships with global students at Quantic School of Business & Technology, a virtual business school. She is now able to tick all of the important boxes of connecting, educating, and becoming more culturally intelligent.

Grace hates and loves running, is a novice birder, and is obsessed with Canva. She is also excited to see what the second half of life has in store! [Grace's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/graceliaw1/]

Recorded 8 July 2022


Links:

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About the Host: Despite never letting school interfere with his education, Danu has nevertheless acquired two social science degrees and an executive MBA. He toils at the intersection of education, technology and society and has worked at various times in teaching, research, project management, business development and customer service. He has so many interests that he has started to outsource them, and his life plan is rapidly running out of alphabet. He is the Founder of Grokkist. [Danu's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danupoyner/]

Music: Kleptotonic Swing by Tri-Tachyon

Website: grokk.ist/stillcuriouspodcast | Email: podcast@grokk.ist | Socials: @grokkist
Music: Kleptotonic Swing by Tri-Tachyon

Grace Liaw:

My brother Dave, four years younger, sweet, sweet kid. I remember making fun of him. I thought he wasn't very smart. And I just thought, you know what, you're probably gonna go to community college and that, and I know that was a horrible zing. And then years later, when I was 28, when I started to go back to my undergrad studies, I chose community college because it was absolutely the most economical option, it made sense. It was close to home, and it would start me on my path towards getting a degree. When I started, I just thought I'm pretty sure I made fun of my brother and guess who's the one at community college now, and I have a completely different view of any of these life choices. There should be no judgment on get to where they get to.

Danu Poyner:

You're listening to the Still Curious Podcast with me, Danu Poyner. My guest today is Grace Liaw, who describes herself as a connector, educator and a global citizen in progress. Today's conversation is all about doing things in a different way and order than you're supposed to. It's about not doing what you're told, leaning into life's sudden twists and turns, feeling behind and taking flight, all while figuring out adulting and navigating the exciting challenges, complexity, and expectations of cultural identity.

Grace Liaw:

There were a lot of unknowns about getting pregnant really young. I'll just say it, I might as well. That's what happened. When that gets thrown into the mix, you can't send that one back. We're very individualistic in the Western culture. We talk about, this is my life, this is your life. That's your decision. This is my decision. When we think about anything that impacts one person, you're impacting everyone around you. That makes things more complicated and confusing. Not everything ends up being a choice.

Danu Poyner:

Grace talks about her life in two parts. Unlike most of her peers, grace did not start her undergraduate studies until turning 28. The typical path to success through college and career was up-ended when she instead chose to start a family quite young. And so the two halves are about how she left the path that had been set for her, and how she later came back to it in her own unique way.

Grace Liaw:

I was in survival mode. In actually starting school again, and then trying to grow my career, I always feel like I'm behind and I hate being behind. I have something in my core that has to do with getting out, being able to fly, not wanting to be confined. I want to be somewhere where others are or where I'm told not to go.

Danu Poyner:

Grace has a true teachers' passion for education. And like many true teachers has bristled against the constraints of the school system. After finally fulfilling her dreams of being a teacher. Grace taught in New Jersey public schools for a couple of years where she realized that public education was not for her. She has since held many different roles in and around education, including living and working in Shanghai, China for six years in various private schools. Today Grace lives in New York and works at Quantic School of Business and Technology, where she designs and hosts events, creates experiences and builds relationships with global students.

Grace Liaw:

They tend to be curious. I wanna give them what they want, which is usually to meet other people, to talk about things that matter to them and providing time and platform. That's our version of playground now.

Danu Poyner:

As usual, this is a conversation that goes on all sorts of tangents while being packed full of surprising substance throughout. We talk about getting tattoos in an Asian and Christian family, teaching in the public school system. The return on investment of different life choices, competing with your kids and why women need to lift each other up. Enjoy, it's Grace Liaw coming up after the music on today's episode of the Still Curious Podcast. Hi grace, welcome to the podcast. How are you?

Grace Liaw:

I'm doing well.

Danu Poyner:

Fantastic. Very glad to hear it. You describe yourself as a connector, educator and global citizen in progress. You are currently the program experience lead at Quantec school of business and technology, a virtual business school, where you design and host events, create experiences and build relationships with global students. You're a qualified teacher with experience in public and private schools from New Jersey to Shanghai. You have a qualification in human ecology and family studies, and you also have a bunch of interesting hobbies, including birding, bread making, and a love, hate relationship with running. What's the most important thing for someone to understand about you?

Grace Liaw:

I definitely am someone who is quite curious in general about almost anything. And I don't know if that comes from getting bored easily or wanting to know something new or not being able to sit still. Ever since I was little is I want to be somewhere where others are or where I'm told not to go. I'm always looking to connect with something, someone, or some place. And that is a constant driver for all the things that I do.

Danu Poyner:

Well, that's a great answer. And I already need to ask you about where is the most interesting place you've been, where you've been told not to go.

Grace Liaw:

So when I was about probably 3, 4, 4, 5 years old, I remember this very vividly. I was at a relatives house, family party, get together. All the adults were eating and chatting in the backyard. The kids are doing other things that kids do. So, me and my cousins. Everyone was older than me. They were probably only four or five years older, maybe not even. I was the youngest one in the group of three or four children just putzing around. And I remember being outside and on the sidewalk of a road. Very nice suburban neighborhood. And across the street was a lemonade stand that I guess the neighbors set up and my older cousins were all across the street and I was the youngest one. I am definitely sure my parents told me don't cross the street. The street was probably not even that big, but it looked like an ocean across the way. I just kept wanting to be where the big kids were and be where the lemonade stand was. I'm not sure if it was a lemonade stand that I wanted, or I just wanted to be part of the big kids crowd. I definitely knew I wasn't allowed to cross the street. My parents weren't watching, so I found myself across the street somehow. I crossed the street. I didn't get hit by a car. I do have a vague recollection of being hunted down by my parents because they realized that I was no longer where I was supposed to be and being scolded for crossing the street. That is probably the first concrete memory that I still have today of me disobeying in the my parents, but me pursuing what I wanted to pursue, because I thought there were better things for me. At three or four years old, it was pretty interesting to cross a big road and get lemonade.

Danu Poyner:

What a great story. So is it one lemonade stand after another, since then?

Grace Liaw:

Yes, I'm going to write that down. It's just been a life full of lemonade stands.

Danu Poyner:

I can't wait to hear about all of those. I need to ask you something about birding. It's not a term I've heard before. Is there a difference between birding and bird watching? It sounds a lot more active, like you would seek out birds rather than just identify them when they come past or something. Is that what you're doing?

Grace Liaw:

I almost feel like it's bird noticing. It's not watching because birds don't stay still long enough for you to really watch them. I am just starting to scratch the surface of this hobby, which is very much a lifelong pursuit for people who are really into birds because there's so many species. We all have birds where we live, which is also very cool. I hear them every morning, but you just don't pay attention because they're in the background. But once I had that first conversation with my colleague, I started to look into it a little bit. And then of course, I ended up down a rabbit hole of what bird watching is. And I went on a bird watching tour and I learned two more species than I ever knew for my first four or five decades of my life. So then I started to notice things. And I realize, oh, not only are there birds everywhere, but there are more species of birds than I ever paid attention to.

Danu Poyner:

We're off to a good start. Normally, I would have to discover a framing device for the conversation as we go along, but you've already given me one with lemonade stand and I've heard you say you've gone about your life in reverse compared to your peers with family and children coming first and college and career was something to come back to later, if at all. It's quite a departure from the usual playbook for a lot of Asian American or migrant households. What can you tell me about that?

Grace Liaw:

For sure, just in the most basic way, it's the reverse. When I think about what it is that families and parents and caretakers care about with their next generation, the long goal is always that our children can provide for themselves and thrive; have a good job, all of that. I can't speak for all cultures around the world, but I know that for Chinese families, for instance, so I'm Chinese American, Chinese families, east Asian families. Education is first because that's the key to supposedly unlocking success for the future, that will set you up, that will equip you for all the things that you need to provide for yourself. Provide for your family. Provision is a very important theme in Asian families, and I'm sure many other cultures. So for my family and many of those families whom we grew up around and with, it's just a no brainer that you move up and through the path of education and through the stages as you need to, primary school, middle school, high school, college, and university. It never crossed my mind not to go, but I only realized much later in life that not everyone gets to go, not everyone access to go, but it was always understood and seen and witnessed that all the people I grew up around everyone went to study higher education because of this path that everyone understood to be the one to be successful. Our parents' generation and many of those folks, they worked their tails off to come to the states to gain what they thought was a high quality education to do all those things. As children of immigrants, it was just the norm that we would all do this sequence of life. When I got to that point and I was 18, 19 years old, things changed and things happened and life just takes a turn. And before I knew it, I was taking the family route instead and left college. My then husband and I, well, we weren't even married at that point. It was a sharp right turn and pretty big shock to the system. We kept that path and we just changed plans suddenly. And so that set the new trajectory for us. I think that's important to tell because people would wonder, why did you do it differently? Well, it, it wasn't quite planned. But even as plans change, then we have to go with it and keep moving forward. Therefore, children happen first. School had to be put to the side. Something else we inherited from our parents' generation and our culture really is the sense of responsibility. If new responsibilities come your way, you pick it up and you live up to those responsibilities. So that set me on a completely different path. We went forward with it and we just kept moving forward. The momentum never stopped. It was just a change in direction. So now looking back, it just looks like a picture of something flicked. We continued on that path until it was the right time to consider whether education is still on the table as an option.

Danu Poyner:

It's quite clear how you've made sense of that time in your life now, but I imagine at the time it was pretty momentous and less clear and I'm wondering, was everyone with you? How were you experiencing that right turn Uh, at the time?

Grace Liaw:

It was hard. Even as I say those words, it was really hard. It's three, four words. But it definitely does not capture what was going on in that time for our lives at such a young age. It's set certain things in me that will be irreversible and I can trace a lot of things back to that time of my life, because of the young age and because of being at a certain crossroad when you're very soft in the underbelly and you're just young, you don't know. 18 is legally an adult. That doesn't mean anything, but you look like you're old enough to make decisions. But it's also all those around you who are also not ready to make certain decisions or think about certain things. In the modern world, we talk about, this is my life. This is your life. That's your decision. This is my decision. We're very individualistic in the Western culture, I'm talking about the us for instance. When we think about anything that impacts one person, you're impacting everyone around you. I think that complicates any kind of life decision or life happening everything is a decision, not everything ends up being a choice. Life events will impact a lot of people and that makes things more complicated and confusing.

Danu Poyner:

I like what you said about taking responsibility and that sounds like a moment of clarity. That this is something that's happening and now I'm going to accept it as a responsibility and clearly March forward in this direction.

Grace Liaw:

I think when people are stressed and under a lot of pressure or there's adversity, we will probably subconsciously grab onto the thing that we know. What I did know, and I know David, my husband at the time, what we both knew when we were young is we knew how to be responsible because we were taught that from very young. There's certain things hardwired into us from our upbringing that were natural. Those things did make sense. It was probably very important at that time when there were a lot of unknowns about getting pregnant really young. I'll just say it, I might as well. That's what happened. We became pregnant while we were in college. And when that gets thrown into the mix, because you can't send that one back, in order to make sense of trying to make a decision on that, then what was familiar was, okay, well, what's the responsible thing to do. What's the right thing to do. If there is a right thing to do. so Then we think about, what do our parents do? What are they good at? They're good at providing and doing things that are sensible. We just had to manage what seemed like an unmanageable situation with the few tools that we did have already.

Danu Poyner:

Did that approach cost you, not just materially, but in terms of social relationships and things at the time.

Grace Liaw:

Most definitely. we had to just fast track, responsible adulting. We had to grow up so fast in some areas of our life, at the exclusion of others. Once you become a parent, your social circle either becomes other parents or actually blocks out a lot of your previous relationships. For us, it was a really obvious change in our social network because all of our friends were in college or starting their first job. Almost all of them were just single and doing the thing that young people do. And we immediately became isolated because we were raising children and working at the age of 19, 20, 21. That naturally changed friendships. There wasn't social media back then we were still using landlines back then. So didn't see people. And there were no zooms. But even more than that, just to see the psychological and emotional separation for everyone else, because we suddenly became so different. And anyone who had children our age were like 10 years older than us. that created a divide as well. I think we also just felt self-conscious or we felt sensitive or are we gonna be judged? There were just all of those things I think that also naturally pulled us away from socializing. That has long term implications. You have to socialize a puppy right in the first couple months. And if you don't, that's it that's my dog, my dog does not know how to get along with any dog because we didn't properly socialize her.

Danu Poyner:

You mentioned how everyone's on the same trajectory and how you someone who likes to be where others are, and this experience seems isolating, just that sense of being out of sync with everyone can't be easier. I'm guessing a knock to your confidence about coming back to college and career and those things as well. How were you experiencing that?

Grace Liaw:

I do wonder sometimes now, decades later, how I would've been different if things were different. I've been thinking about confidence and self worth, All of those things. I think I've always projected myself as confident. That little grace, crossing the road, she was reckless, definitely confident, confidence based on, I don't even know what, like I'm just gonna go. I think that's definitely part of me. And somewhere along the years, I think it's quite normal for a lot of us to lose footing on our confidence and question ourselves. The life circumstances around my late teens and early twenties, definitely shook my foundation more than it would have if life took on a more quote unquote normal route. But I think I manufactured a lot of confidence through that time. I was in survival mode. In actually starting school again, and then trying to grow my career. I always feel like I'm behind and I hate being behind. I like to do the thing that I'm told not to do. So, it's pretty complicated and I'm still trying to figure it out. I think the core of who I am hasn't changed, but the layers and the shells and the versions of me have evolved. I'm not as confident as I think I am sometimes, isn't that an imposter syndrome. Isn't that what we all talk about.

Danu Poyner:

I think so. It's quite a complicated thought. I'm not as confident as I think I am. Let's talk a bit about the reentry into college and career then. you describe your life in two parts, and I think that clear division is interesting in itself. I'm wondering if you could explain, when did the second half start for you and what drove that.

Grace Liaw:

I think there are at least two layers to us. There might be multiple. If we imagine my emotional self as on one track or one layer, and then my external self, I guess, the one who gets up every morning, the one who types away at her computer, the one who's getting a job. Between my two selves in the same person, I think the adulting part of me, because I started very early, I reached a certain point in that sooner than a lot of other people. I think I hit my midlife in quotes, probably in my early forties or thirties. I thought I was mature. I thought I had done everything. And I think that one was in some ways ready for the second half of life, whatever that meant. But I now know that there was another part of me that didn't catch up yet, which is the emotional self. She was very far behind because of starting early in life and not having a chance to grow up in certain ways. There were some parts of us that never saw the light of day that never got to socialize properly. Never got to understand what it's like to interact with people in an emotionally healthy way. That part of me has taken much longer to catch up, but now, I'm kind of midlife. I feel like the two selves are a little bit more aligned now. Even a few years back when I started to use that first half, second half of life description, it was because I read a book by Richard Rohr called Falling Upwards. Rohr is a Franciscan monk, like a modern day monk. That was where I had the first understanding that there is a first and second half of life us. Mostly emotional and spiritual, but practically speaking as well. So ever since I read that, I started to think about it a lot and picture my life, what was my first half like, and what will my second half be? Now I think about it all the time, because I think I finally caught up a little bit and I think I actually cleanly look to my second half of life, career, relationships, relationship with myself. What's my half of life going to be, my contribution to the world, all of those things.

Danu Poyner:

You went to community college at some point and I would have guessed that would be a moment, but I imagine there's some context around.

Grace Liaw:

Yes. Going to community college, first of all, was never in the plans. It was not an option when I was much younger, say 10, 12 years old. I have three younger siblings. The one right after me is my brother Dave, four years younger and sweet, sweet kid. And I remember making fun of him. I guess, for a second, I thought he, wasn't very smart. And I just thought, you know what, you're probably gonna go to community college and that, and I know that was a horrible zing. And then years later, when I was 28, when I started to plan and go back to college or start my undergrad studies. And I chose community college because it was absolutely the most economical option, it made sense. It was close to home, and it would start me on my path towards getting a degree. When I started, I just thought I'm pretty sure I made fun of my brother and guess who's the one at community college now, and I have a completely different view of any of these life choices. There should be no judgment on get to where they get to. I think the first half of life I had multiple chapters. That would've been a moment of realization that, wow, it's taking me this long just to start something that everyone else did 10 years ago, but also, wow, I get to do this now. There's always two sides to all these coins where there's a positive and a negative. So that was a great time for me, that set me on a really nice trajectory to what felt like reclaiming lost time lost opportunity I don't know that community colleges are the same, or if there are community colleges in all countries or junior colleges. But they are just like mini universities. They are usually two year programs. They are tertiary courses and programs and degrees. I registered and I started taking part-time courses. I was very practical, very pragmatic at that time. I had been parent for many years When you're raising a family or just living with a family, one of the first things is like, can I commute there? Is it going to be expensive? Is the facility nice? It ticked all of those boxes. But what made it a really great experience? It was just like any school, it was because I was ready. I was sitting at the front of the classroom. I didn't care. In high school you could never sit in the front for, in the You just didn't do that. But at the age of 28, it didn't matter to me. I was there for the education. That's an adulting choice. Once a choice like that, it's bound good experience because I chose to do it. I just soaked it up. I felt great about it. It was my choice. It didn't cost a lot. It was a great return on investment.

Danu Poyner:

This is a phrase I hear you use a bit, return on investment, which I guess is connected to what you were just saying about being very practical. Is that how you think about the chapters that you go through?

Grace Liaw:

In order to gain education and knowledge, you do have to spend money, tuition time. When it comes to those things that you can see that are very tangible, it is easy to use that framework of, was this a good use of time and money? My whole undergrad studies, including the community college portion, which was the first two years after which I decided, okay, I can now go ahead and transfer to a four year college and get my bachelor's. I was hesitant at first, I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to finish. That's another reason why I did the community college because I was scared that we wouldn't have enough money or what if I didn't like it, or if I couldn't commit to it. Once I decided that I wanted to complete my bachelor's degree, I also went about it in as practical a way as possible. I applied to a university, not very far. Not one I would've chosen when I was 18. I would've wanted something more prestigious, or with a bigger name, which is silly, right. I applied and I applied for a scholarship. I did my entire undergrad studies spending maybe 10 to 12,000 us dollars, which in the us is hard to come by. It was still a lot of money for us, but it was great. And I'm really proud of it. I love talking about it. I'm like, you don't need to spend a hundred thousand dollars to get a degree.

danu_poyner:

It sounds like a very transformative experience. What were you studying actually.

Grace Liaw:

I wanted to become a teacher. In the state of New Jersey, there weren't too many programs that were strictly education where you got their degree and your certification, because certification was always separate. In addition to whatever degree you had. The department was human ecology, there was an education track in there. Ultimately the end goal was to become a teacher, which was always what I've thought I wanted to do. I used to think I could teach right now, why do I need a degree? But of course you have to go to and be highly qualified. so that's how I ended up choosing the program that I did for the right school, the right place for the right price and would get me to where I needed to go.

Danu Poyner:

When you had that qualification, did that change your view of what teaching was? Or did you still have the thought yeah, I could have done this in the first place?

Grace Liaw:

The learning that I had the program I was in, it was, it was good because I applied myself. I think, I don't know that it was necessarily because the content was out of this world. I was going in the instructional route. So it was a lot of theory. I know that we have to go through that. But maybe more important to talk about was the qualification, because that is the stamp of approval that you are smart enough to our next generation. That's what it's supposed to be. You can't teach in the public schools in the us without a state certification, and we have to take a test called the Praxis test PR a X I S. I was going the route of general education for elementary. So not super rigorous. It's a very generalist education. I took the Praxis and I scored high enough to pass. When I think back about my preparation in undergrad and then what was required of me in order to qualify for teaching, I don't feel like much was asked of me. I would've thought that the world would've wanted more from me cuz I'm not the hardest working student. I'm not out there to be an overachiever. I'll just be honest. When I think about our public education system in general, as teachers, I think more needs to be asked of us. plenty of incredible teachers and there are plenty of not great it's not even that's complicated. It's not of how intelligent they are or how great their instructional prowes is. As one, who's been a classroom teacher, I know how hard it is. It's incredibly difficult to run a classroom. Is exhausting. So I will never encroach on a teacher's territory and question them unless something is alarming. They have to do their job and I'm happy they're doing their job teaching my kids, but I also have the lens of, not sure they're learning that much. That's kinda complicated. And then I was a teacher and I think was I good enough to be a really good teacher? Or did I just get by, through the system?

Danu Poyner:

I do hear this very qualified language in the way that you talk about education in general. I'm hearing through experience, a lot of healthy skepticism perhaps of how it all works.

Grace Liaw:

That would be a good description, but maybe I just have a healthy skepticism about everything. question everything. Because I don't always believe what I'm told. And is that a good thing? I don't know. I usually have to test it out to see if it's indeed what they say it is. I don't know if it's nature or nurture. I don't know if it's just who I am or if life has shaped me to be that way.

danu_poyner:

Well, it sounded

Danu Poyner:

like it was there in pretty good shape at five. You only have an authentic, understanding of something by experiencing it is what I'm hearing through this, and that's how you can make up your mind about things. I'm curious now with that in mind to ask you about your experience of being a teacher, it was something that you'd wanted for a long time, and you'd gone through a lot to get it, and you really intentional and really ready for it. What happened? How was it?

Grace Liaw:

The things I loved about classroom teaching is that room became my universe. It was an economy, it was a community, it was a household. It was like running a small business. There was so much about the classroom experience that really appealed to me. Not just because I'm a little bossy, but because I felt like I really had responsibility over the lives of these children. And there was such a holistic feeling about it. And the fact that those children, 1920 of them were looking to me for guidance was a thrilling feeling. There's a lot of ego in there, as being the keeper of knowledge and the keeper of the day. But you're also many other hats, too. You are a counselor, you are a Sergeant. You are a parent. My experience was great but I was working in the public education system I found that the system didn't work for me. Sometimes it was the curriculum I would think this is not going to teach my student or do I have to stay with this because I think so and so really needs this. I was very keen to meet the needs of the students. It was really important to me that I was teaching all of them, but also teaching each of them individually and that's a really interesting balance to try to strike as not just a teacher, but just a leader or a parent. You wanna meet the needs of everyone, but you also wanna be very personalized. That was hard to do in a public school system because we had a prescriptive curriculum, there's state testing, their national standards to meet. I wouldn't say everyone, but if you're going to last a long time in the public school system, you're going to have to just resign yourself to certain things and not question it. I very long I didn't last very long in the public school system. And even in my own classroom, I just did things differently. I used to wonder, I'm like, what's wrong with me? Why can't I just do what other people do? Sometimes it's because I think I do know better. I think I know what my students need, or I just like to be different. I definitely have a very creative side that I didn't really realize until very recently. And that's part of what makes me thrive and do well where I get to be creative and a little bit different. I only worked in the public school system for two years, I think. It was wonderful because it stretched me so much. I worked so hard. I was up at all hours, grading papers, trying to manage a classroom. Again, hats off to classroom teachers, especially primary school teachers. It's like a show from the moment they walk in that classroom all the way to the end of the day, they are switched on the entire time.

Danu Poyner:

Then you spent some time in Shanghai, in private schools. Is that right?

Grace Liaw:

There were some years in between where I just did other jobs. I was running the scene behind the curtains of a church actually, it's a little bit of a detour, but, Churches are like running a family in a business all in one. That was for about two years. And then our entire family, through a series of interesting decisions and discoveries, we eventually went to Shanghai, China a few years later. So, classroom teaching in public schools, a break and then straight to China picked up and left our entire lives that we've known only in New Jersey for decades. I went to a private school there and that just opened my world up entirely. Well, huge part because I was in a completely different country, working in a private school versus a public school. And it was a much more international student body. Everything was different it was a learning curve, but very, very exciting.

Danu Poyner:

so was that move, another sudden right turn or was it something and on purpose? How did that come about?

Grace Liaw:

The way it happened was my older son at the time, had just graduated from high school and he applied to universities, but he really wasn't ready to go. Or at least we didn't think so. So we sent him on a gap year and the gap year was going to be in Shanghai, China, and he would spend a semester a year there studying Chinese and that's it. And just hanging out. We went to visit him. And that was our first time as a family. I had never been to China before. So when I went there, and these were just happy coincidences, we met a friend of our friend who was ahead of school at a school there. and she said, oh, do you wanna come work here? and I couldn't let it go after that. I just started thinking, oh my goodness, I think our family could use a change of scenery. We've been the us all this time, we've stayed in the same place for decades. I didn't know what I wanted to do with my career because I left teaching, but still wanted to grow that part of my career. There were a million questions going on my mind and I think I was primed for change. I just took this as a sign from the universe, I saw it as a lemonade stand that I wanted to check out. So coming back from that trip to visiting our son in Shanghai, I came home and I just could not stop thinking about it. A year later and opportunity presented itself, we moved to China then. I, started working at the school that I had run into that first trip. A lot of my family members were not keen for me to do it. There was some opposition, some questioning, is this a good idea? I still went ahead with it and my life's never been the same since.

Danu Poyner:

What was it like spending time in as a Chinese American and you mentioned you hadn't been there before, what was that like?

Grace Liaw:

It was so interesting. I had always thought I was Chinese living here. I speak Mandarin. I understand Mandarin. I don't read and write anymore. I had learned as a child, so I'm not fully fluent in that sense. When we arrive to Shanghai, which by the way is a first tier city in China. So it's not going to get easier than that city, it's very well established. Economically it's strong. There are a lot of foreigners there, but it's still China. I realized, oh, I'm not really Chinese. I can't read the signs. Even maybe I look like I could be blending in with the majority, but I was definitely not. When you move to a completely foreign country, that's not as well developed as first world countries like the us, everything is a challenge. Everything is something to figure out down to which way to walk in a station. You're on high alert the whole time. It's like nothing else. You can't experience that in your own home country in any way, but it's also, what's really exciting. It was exhausting, but it was challenging. And so every time you're able to overcome a challenge or I'm able to order a meal, or I'm able to get my change back with buying something or I'm able to find a plumber to come fix something. There was a huge sense of achievement every single time. But what also happened just as much and if not more, were all failures. It's such a humbling experience to go overseas, not as a tourist, but to actually live there is a thing than being a tourist. And it's a very humbling experience.

Danu Poyner:

So how long did it take you to get that sense of, well the small wins of mastery of ordering something with confidence?

Grace Liaw:

I remember reading that if you're an expat, it'll take you two solid years of living to feel like I can do more than survive. I would say that's fair. I think it did take the first couple years for me to be able to wake up and think I know what I'm gonna do with my day, and I know who I'm going to go see, and I know how to get there and I don't have to freak out. We were expats for the first couple years, and then as you continue to keep living in a foreign country, and very importantly is to immerse yourself as much as possible in the local culture, because it's very easy to separate oneself as a foreigner. You just hang out with people who are other English speakers and you don't talk to locals. But we were pretty intentional and wanted to walk down the little local streets and just talk to random people. Then we became half pets after the first two years. I wanted to think that we were more half pat than expat. that part was very enjoyable. we were really proud of how much we were stretched and able to comfortable.

Danu Poyner:

So, being full pats wasn't on the cards, I take it. How far does this go? You were there for what? Six years is it?

Grace Liaw:

Once you've worked so hard to try to even survive. Then you wanna enjoy having gotten past that first stage. it stretched out to six, seven years. And part of that is also because working in education, especially in China was great. A foreigner in an international school or even a private Chinese school, which is different, you're rock stars doesn't wanna be a rockstar?

Danu Poyner:

What do you think is the biggest difference between the teaching you were doing in Shanghai versus in the public system?

Grace Liaw:

The school that I was in it was a private Chinese school. The government was, maybe not part owner, but they would oversee aspects of the school. So When we talk about public schools in the us, there is the state involved or there's accountability from the government, but in China, that kind of accountability actually looks quite different and it's more controlling actually. But anyway, I was in a Chinese private school that ran a Western education. The primary school used American curriculum, Texas or California, I don't remember. And so they would import all of the textbooks and material and lots of foreign teachers. The student body, they were all foreign students, but they were almost all Asian students. So they came from Malaysia, Taiwan, Korea, and these are families that came to China for work purposes. I was in a Chinese school with American curriculum, teaching non Chinese, Asian and with the staff of primarily American teachers and administrators plus some Chinese administrators. different than what we had in states. Because this is not the us and these schools are hungry for foreign talent. It's not easy to get really great foreign teachers or administrators. So when they have us, they're not super strict as far as for our supervising what we do. basically I could do whatever I wanted in my classroom, within the bounds of being a good teacher, plus the students were amazing students. These were the loveliest fourth graders. I was teaching fourth grade These were children coming from families that were actually well educated professional working parents, who were in a foreign country and humble, polite, courteous, they respected teachers. a lot to do with the cultures there are coming from. It's a very different field than being in America where the customer's always right. And everything gets questioned. That didn't happen where I was. So I had freedom to teach as I wanted to teach. And I had these lovely families and children who were also hardworking, courteous, kind, and generous respected teachers. So it really didn't get better than that. Those were probably some of my best years, as far as experience in the school.

Danu Poyner:

Amazing. I think that sounds like sewing seeds of a lot of cultural intelligence work, an engagement, which has been a bit of a theme since then, I think for you.

Grace Liaw:

Until I went to China, I lived in a very prescribed bubble for my whole life. And even though I come from a bicultural background, I have my American side and I have my Chinese side, but it wasn't until I left and went to a completely. space and stay there long enough and orient in myself around so many different people who I I couldn't always communicate with. It shakes your confidence, but in a good way, I think. It keeps us on our toes. When you pause long enough, you start to realize there's so many amazing people that I didn't get to know when I was growing up. Even the children that I met, they all had Asian faces, but they were all different. They were from Singapore, from Japan. And they all had these little nuances about them that were very cultural. Those years in China, I think expanded my sensitivity, but made me realize how little I knew, but I wanted to know more. That set me on the path of being more interested in people, not like me than being interested in people like me.

Danu Poyner:

That's a good answer. So what happened next? What was the next lemonade stand?

Grace Liaw:

I was in China, but all my family members were home in the states. I knew sooner or later I'd have to come home. So I tried to make my way back to the states, I knew it would be difficult because so many years have passed and I had become another version of myself overseas. I knew that coming back would not feel like coming back. It would be like entering a whole new era. I had read that repatriating can be difficult. Because when you go back to your original culture, some things will feel very familiar very quickly, but other things will feel weird because you had been out of touch for six, seven years. I didn't even know who was popular anymore. And because I was in China, a lot of things were blocked actually. Watching YouTube was difficult. Facebook was blocked. There were a lot of things about living in China that just became a different bubble. Trying to transition back into the states culturally, emotionally was a journey. And then probably the most difficult was career wise. Because I really liked my job in China. I think if I had stayed in China, I would've moved up. I would've made more money. I would've been in a higher role, I might've been, maybe vice principal. That was the trajectory I was going to go in, school leadership, but wanting to come back to the states and finding work and shifting the career, those were some interesting choices because I didn't wanna go to public school. I didn't even necessarily want to go back into a school, but I didn't know what else qualified for. I had these years in China where I was a teacher, a student affairs director, and then even a Dean for a short time. Those qualifications looked pretty good, but they were in China. Someone in the states, it register. It was almost as if it was a gap in my that really hard to accept. Before I left China, I started exploring being a private consultant to families and children because, those who have the resources for it, who have the financial means China, other Asian countries, too Korea, where everyone wants to go to states. It's just like my parents wanting to come many years ago. Everyone has the American dream. They love heading west and they want their kids to go to university in the us or even high school. So I thought, okay, well, I grew up there. I know what the education like. I have a lot of parents whom I've met and I know their kids are probably going to be sent overseas. So why don't I become this bridge or consultant for them. I explored that for a couple years, and that was interesting and difficult because I stepped out of a structured setting of a school and became an entrepreneur basically, when I had no sense of how to do that, it was just a lot of random conversations and like, Hey, I probably can help you your child, but it was a lot of clumsy figuring out how to be a consultant, how to charge people, money, stuff. And then that's when I started transition back to the states and I thought, could I still do this while I'm back in the states, it didn't make enough money. So then I thought, okay, I need to find a stable job. As I was job searching, I'm thinking I have a pretty good resume. But when I started to explore the job market in the states, I realized it's changed since I left. There are different titles out there that I didn't know existed. There are roles that maybe are similar to the ones that I've seen in the past, but they just have different names now. It was a real struggle to know where to look and what to look for and what matched up with my skills beyond just classroom teaching because I didn't wanna go back to classroom teaching. So that was a couple years, it took much longer than I thought it would. And my confidence was definitely taken for a ride.

Danu Poyner:

Mm, interesting. Well, let's bring this into the present now then Experience lead at a virtual business school like a role that didn't exist 20 years ago. So draw me a line. How do we get here?

Grace Liaw:

Okay. So I was pretty lost. I felt like I had to step down or sideways to find something, to enter back into the job market. And I stumbled upon this role at Quantec admissions representative. This one was different than other job applications because they required a video submission and I'm like, oh, that's interesting. And I did it. And fortunately, they liked it and they hired me to be admissions representative. I did it for a year. I've had tons of practice interviewing people in a short span of time. So it was a very interesting, very targeted skill set that I had to sharpen. By the end of one year, I had done over a thousand interviews. It wasn't even a full-time job. It was actually pretty exhausting it was like putting on a show every single time. While I loved it, it wasn't enough for me. So I was just fortunate that there was an opening on the engagement team. And because I liked the company, I just wanted to stay within the organization, but just try something different. And so I was fortunate. I applied for that role. They said yes to me. So I became an engagement coordinator. And that's a combination of hosting events and student support. It's been over a year and a half and recently my shift to the role, program experience lead, grew out of my work as an engagement coordinator. because we interact so closely with students or as closely as possible for a virtual program. My natural senses as a classroom teacher were play quite a bit in my engagement coordinator role. And that just allowed me to have a keen pulse on what the student experience was like and also seeing where there might be places to improve. I don't like to stay in one role for too long. Either I'm I move up or I move sideways or I span out my influence. So this title and this role came about through conversations with the company. It wasn't the position that existed in the form that it is. And I think we're still figuring out what it is. Which is really, really cool for me. I haven't been in a place where I get to be a part architect of what my job might look like going forward. I'm pretty excited about it. We'll see how I do.

Danu Poyner:

I think we all know how you'll do, but I can't wait to see it play out. One of my favorite questions to ask people on the podcast is how to explain something as if to a 10 year old. So can you tell me what

danu_poyner:

engagement is?

Danu Poyner:

Explain it to a 10 year old.

Grace Liaw:

It's to occupy, attract and involve someone's attention or interest. Our team is about drawing people in and getting them somehow actively involved and to participate. You're going to listen and speak and maybe do something with your hands because of something I'm asking you to do making you interested in doing. Our job is to think about and design events that will allow for you to want to engage. It's going to make you want to join us.

Danu Poyner:

want to dive into a little bit about the mechanics of that. But I think first we should explain what Quantec is. We've called it a virtual business school, but what does that mean?

Grace Liaw:

Quantec school of business and technology is the full name of the school. Of course, when we think of the word school, we're all picturing a building in our head. We're all picturing a classroom in our head. But Quantic is a hundred percent online. And we like to describe ourself as a mobile first learning program. Unless they're attending one of our in-person events, our thousands and thousands of students never see each other. They're completely using either their phone app, we have an app that has all the course content, or we're meeting them on zoom if they attend those meetings. But, we're a virtual business program. Right now, we only have an MBA and an executive MBA program. will have more programs in the future, but right now those are our flagship programs. This is really key to Quantic and part of the draw, part of what I love about this program, is that, because it's a hundred percent virtual, it's possible for us to have students from everywhere. Across the globe. And to know that my virtual classroom cohort is composed of people from all different time zones and languages is mind blowing.

Danu Poyner:

Your kingdom is the whole world now, is that what you're telling me?

Grace Liaw:

Yes. I think that's the revelation. My goal in life is to have my fingers as big of a classroom as possible. That's what Quantec is right now and the model will be replicated into other programs because it is a great model. It does work and our students do really enjoy it.

Danu Poyner:

I'm someone who a bit like you as an Explorer and likes to sus things out by doing them. And, I have been through this program. It's very good. And, it's probably the best school experience I've ever had.

Grace Liaw:

That's a big thing to say. That's big.

Danu Poyner:

I think, a lot of the things I have struggled with with education around the strictness of the curriculum and the shutting down, and just boring, right. A lot of it and expensive and the ROI isn't there. So, I've just saw really intentional design

danu_poyner:

in Quantec to be, as

Danu Poyner:

you said, mobile first. It's a reimagined thing. It's virtual, it's affordable. And I thought, Hmm, this seems disruptive. Is this the kind of thing that really what it says, so I better do it and find out. So I did, and it is so, that's my conclusion.

Grace Liaw:

Awesome. I did have a healthy skepticism coming in when I first joined the company. My educator lens was no one can learn like this. This is nice. But can someone really gain knowledge from something that has no teacher, there's no direct contact with professors you're not in the classroom. Is that possible to still get high quality education? So I definitely questioned it. I did eventually do the program myself and then moving into the engagement team role, allowed me to actually hear and witness and observe what the students were responding to. And I realized that it's not even about better or worse is just different different is what the order is. It what's required. And so our students do gain quite a bit from it.

Danu Poyner:

tends to attract people who explorers and looking for something different. A large part of what has been really enjoyable for me is I've met lots of weird people.

Grace Liaw:

Right. some really interesting people. it Takes a certain kind of drive and type of adults to go with a program that's still relatively young. In a form that they did not grow up with, and to take a leap of faith that this is going to be the program that's going to work. When I used to interview people and admissions, they ask all these questions. So is it as good as Harvard, and I'm like, you're just gonna have to find out because, I don't think it's as simple as saying something is like something else. It's not everyone, but for the right people, it's the exact right choice.

Danu Poyner:

That leads me to my next question then, which is about what it means to create a fantastic student experience in your role, because it's fully remote. It's all over the world. These are busy, high achieving people, who, one of the reasons why they're doing it is cuz it's convenient and they can do it on their phones and things. So what does that mean, a fantastic student experience, in this context?

Grace Liaw:

Specific to our program and the nature of our program and the nature of our student community, I think that we're co-authors in the experience because so much of it is virtual. We're not standing in front of people. We're not holding their hand through an experience. We're not a theme park. There's a natural divide that we have to remember that exists that people are calling in remotely. I think we have to do just enough to engage their interest, to provide topics that feel relevant to them, that will enrich their learning and then give the students space to interact with each other. All those pieces together have the potential to create a really great experience for students. These are adults who are very busy and if they can carve out an hour to join one of our optional meetups, I'll do everything in my power to give them something that I think they want. Knowing what they want is about listening and paying attention and constantly adapting. As much as I can, I wanna give them what they want, which is usually to meet other people, to talk about things that matter to them and providing time and platform. That's our version of playground now. I think once those pieces are in the recipe, the chances of something being a really great experience is a little bit higher if we didn't think about all those different pieces. It's a certain type of person who joins this program. They tend to be curious. I found that our students, when they do join experiences or events, they bring a huge part of that experience to us because of who they are. They're a key player in their own experience.

Danu Poyner:

I like this idea of making space. That's a nice way of thinking about it because these things are optional. They're not part of assessment or anything like that. So it's highly voluntary. What brings people into that is, as you say, wanting to meet other people and connect over something.

Grace Liaw:

I think so. And I think it keeps changing. The customer keeps changing and changing very quickly, especially online, especially virtually. People make decisions differently than they did two years ago. The role I'm in now is to to how are people changing so that we can adjust what we're doing so that it feels like we're still delivering consistent experience.

Danu Poyner:

You mentioned earlier about your approach to the classroom, to teach everyone, but also each person, how does that translate to what you're doing now?

Grace Liaw:

it would be similar to the classroom experience. Our job to deliver a similar experience to everyone, we establish a certain structure. We onboard the cohorts a certain way. We message things a certain way. We're constantly adjusting. We're always trying to figure out, Did they need this instruction? Did they need to have this meeting earlier? Where we meet the needs of the whole program or cohort is to guide the whole group properly. As the teacher or cohort coordinator leader, whoever's the caretaker of these students, we have to keep our radar up for what looks different right now. What is so and so saying, and why are they saying that? And to take that time, it could just be seconds sometimes. And in our case it might be a slack message or answering a question a certain way. That's where we get to meet that individual where they are. I don't think it necessarily means I have to go to every single student and say, Hey, are you okay? That would be amazing but it would be very, very difficult because we have hundreds of students in one cohort, we have new cohorts every six weeks. So the next best thing is to really pay attention to their questions, which is often what is the first signal that someone is trying to say something to us. So great structure, great instructions. Great messaging. Communication is the main way that we can show that we are taking care of the whole, but it's the personalization and the small things that we do individually. Like birding, you gotta attention to the birds that are flying by.

Danu Poyner:

yeah, yeah. Oh, okay. So it's about noticing things. What have you noticed as being a common unspoken need or experience that people are having that they want something from engagement?

Grace Liaw:

Our students are parents, entrepreneurs. They are leaders in their business, they're all kinds of different personas of very capable and eager to learn adults. I think there's quite a bit of humility in the students as a whole, so they don't ask for much, they're pretty happy with just being able to learn on their own time with flexibility, but where we come in and can elevate their experience, more often than not they're surprised when we say something a little extra. and I respond to the question I give'em the information. And they say, I hope that helps, have a great day. I think a virtual smile or a virtual acknowledgement, even the smallest ones make a difference in the experience. And they remember that because we're virtual. So that's all can exist.

Danu Poyner:

I know what you mean. We're all doing this remote work now and having jobs where we never meet our colleagues. We have to find forms of that social interaction and hospitality through these digital mediums that are not just transplanted from the physical world, but actually also need to be reimagined for that space.

Grace Liaw:

Absolutely.

Danu Poyner:

I'm struck by something you said right at the start about feeling like you're behind. Now that your classroom is the whole world and you are co imagining a new playground. Do you still have that feeling about being behind?

Grace Liaw:

Not too long ago, I was still feeling very behind, because I noticed that as I get older, the workplace is young and I have to restructure my schema of what normal looks like. It's not just the people who are older, who are higher of management. A lot of the rules that existed in my mind my first half of life really need to be thrown out the window in order for me to thrive better in this second half of life. I can't redo anything in the past. So this most recent opportunity to co-create this role and having some more playground. And now through conversations with you, realizing that my classroom is the whole world, it's given me a lot of hope and a lot to look forward to.

Danu Poyner:

I do feel like I've caught you in a reflective mood, which is good. So I should ask you the signature question of the podcast, which is, uh, what is a life changing, learning experience you would gift to someone and why?

Grace Liaw:

I know it's not possible with everyone's resources, but going to a different country is guaranteed to transform anybody. It's not so much about the country. It's about leaving home, really leaving home. Not next door to the town next to you, but to put yourself in a completely foreign environment for an extended period of time. That one will stretch you in ways that you couldn't possibly experience in a familiar setting and transform you and show you what you're capable of, that you can do much more than you would think you could do. It will show you your limitations too. Humbling and empowering together. Naturally will transform a person their worldview.

Danu Poyner:

Fantastic answer. Love it. I was gonna ask you about your tattoos.

Grace Liaw:

Tattoo. So, I grew up in a very conservative environment, Asian and Christian. So that's like doubly as conservative I'm pretty sure.

Danu Poyner:

doesn't scream tattoos.

Grace Liaw:

I certainly knew what it was like to think that certain things were just no nos you just don't do it. And tattoos, even though it was never something I was interested in, I just remember growing up and if my parents saw people with lots of tattoos, that they would just probably walk the other way. It was subtle, but very obvious that there was some judging of people with markings on their body. And then when I became a parent and my children got a little bit older, there was one time one of my sons, so I'm thinking about a tattoo and he was already in college by then. And I'm like, tattoo, why would you do that? And I did the typical parent thing and I started rejecting it from every corner. and then fast forward, several years and right around midlife, figuring out the adulting, transition, midlife crisis, call it what you will. And I decided that I was gonna get tattoo. I can't even say I had a very good reason. Except that I thought it would be cute to have one. It would be fun to have one. I wanted a bird and I wasn't even birding back then. I found a design I really liked. And I got tattoo. You hear about people who want to attach a lot of meaning to it, and it really wasn't that for me, I just thought, I think it would look really cute, subconsciously I probably did attach a lot of meaning to it. I think many of us do make these choices when we are going through something when we're when you choose to do something that you would not have thought to do in the past. I chose it because I thought I was really pretty and beautiful. And then I thought, oh my goodness, it was not by accident that I chose these. There's something about flight. I have something in my core that has to do with getting out, being able to fly, not wanting to be confined. So that was my first tattoo. I thought, okay, I'm done. need to have more, but I have a second tattoo planned and it's going to be a bird cage it'll be an open door though. Open door. I decide if I'm going to have another one, I wanna stick with a theme.

Danu Poyner:

It would be not too much of a stretch to attach a bit of meaning to that. It's a very deliberate but contained statement of rebellion. Isn't it?

Grace Liaw:

Yeah. Don't put me in a cage.

Danu Poyner:

Now that you've told me this great story of your path through life, I'm interested to hear about your family and your kids. I hear in a lot of what you're saying that a large part of what's driving your own career path is wanting to be a model for them. So what are they like how does their world compare to the one that you grew up in.

Grace Liaw:

Okay. our family is definitely interesting because from day one we were different. Jessie is the older of the two. I have two boys. Jessie will be 31 this year. And my younger one, he'll be turning 26. They're just two normal young men trying to figure out their way in the world. Because of the way they were raised, the lines are blurrier between us because of the age and being young parents. Our relationship definitely blurs a line of parent to child and peers. Sometimes great. Not always good because they will say things to me that I'm like, I can't believe you said that I never say that to my mother. We have an interesting relationship because I think everything about me and our family, their father, everything was just different. So even as a model for them, I'm not that much farther ahead of them. In fact, they're quickly catching up and moving past me in the sense that they've had a standard sequence of education, higher education, and then into young adulthood. The three of us will sit around and talk about jobs now, and I'll talk about my job and they're talking about them looking for jobs. They'll be making more than me easily in a very short time. they are already, and I'm thinking, what the fuck? Why are you making more money than me. I want them to be better than me. I want them to more than me. I think all parents generally want that. I don't all of us parents will always be happy for every moment of our children. If we're a hundred percent honest, I think it's more complicated than that. I think we can be happy for them, but also feel like, wow, I sacrificed a lot so you can have something. I've set things up hopefully so that you can succeed. And in the world, maybe my children will surpass me, and I want them to, but then I also scratch my head at oh, well, okay. I guess you're fine. Now I have to catch up. I've done everything that I could. Within my capacity, I try to move the family forward, but in the end, it's up to them to decide where they wanna go with it.

Danu Poyner:

I've heard you say a phrase I like, which is, women need to lift each other up. I wonder if that's something you'd like to talk about, given everything we've discussed today.

Grace Liaw:

I think it came later in life for me that I realized There's some things that women will get about women and men for men. I think It's the same thing. I think it's because I missed out on a lot of friendship building when I was in my early twenties, which are really formative years, as far as going into womanhood. I also grew up with a mom who is, bless her, strong, definitely wears the pants in the family, but not very relational and she's not the warm, fuzzy type and her love language is service. I didn't have enough models when I was young of what strong female relationships look like and why they're important. Plus, I have a very independent mother who's very capable and doesn't ask for a lot of help. So I became that person too. I became someone who's very self-sufficient survivor, all of that. And then on top of that, having many years of not forging relationships with other young women. So there's a huge void in my life from those early years. In my thirties, I started to realize, I need a community of women, I need some good friends. I need some support. I think I still struggle with forging relationships. I somehow don't seek them out, but I have noticed that the handful of times where I do have deep connections with other women, whether it's conversations about career, about parenting, about just being a woman, just a girl, I can feel that it's important. It's important to feeling normal. we're also busy. Everyone is, but to pay attention to that, to take time, to notice be supportive of each other. I think that really matters a lot, even if it's a small moment.

Danu Poyner:

I think there'll be a lot of people who listen to this, who will find your story very inspiring grace, and maybe they'll want to reach out. What's the best way for someone to get in touch if they want to say something to lift you up.

Grace Liaw:

Please do. I do love connecting with people. The easiest way to find me, especially nowadays is LinkedIn. I keep my LinkedIn tab on at all times. If they just type my name, Grace Liaw at Quantec, they'll be able to find their way to me.

Danu Poyner:

It's been a fantastic conversation with you today. I've learned a lot and I'm feeling inspired and uplifted in so many ways. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. Is there anything else you wanna talk about that I've missed?

Grace Liaw:

I wanna thank you for in inviting me. I feel like I just went through a therapy now. Everyone's story is different, but what have you learned about people in the process of doing this show?

Danu Poyner:

That's a great question. A large part of why I started doing this is to have a reason to talk to interesting people who don't fit the normal way of doing things and who don't like being bored. A lot of people have this, what I'm calling stuck energy, about them. I'm thinking hard now about how to help people get past that stuck energy, help people be alive to the possibilities and understand their strengths and capabilities and see that all of the stuff they feel about not fitting and having a different path is huge strength and asset if it's reframed.

Grace Liaw:

You too. See ya!

People on this episode

Head Shot

Danu Poyner

Host