Still Curious

Unlocking the power of purposeful play - Trudi Boatwright | S3E7

• Trudi Boatwright • Season 3 • Episode 7

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Trudi is an experiential designer, facilitator, and creative who specialises in play. We discuss how purposeful play fosters connection, innovation, and psychological safety in life and the workplace.

Key Topics

  • The importance of a playful mindset and its benefits in the workplace, including fostering connection, innovation, and psychological safety
  • Trudi's squiggly career journey and why she has had 48 jobs, from performing on London’s West End, to working in a bikey bar, and how her diverse experiences have shaped her approach to creativity and communication
  • Trudi's experience using play in high-stakes situations, such as working with incarcerated women and seriously ill children, and how play can be a tool for healing and transformation
  • How it can be difficult and confusing to explain what you do when you don't fit into a predefined box, and why Trudi finds that identifying as a grokkist helps her make sense of herself.


Full Show Notes
Visit the Grokkist podcast hub for a full digest of this episode including highlights and links to stuff we discussed: https://grokk.ist/stillcuriouspodcast/s3e7-trudi-boatwright

Recorded 13 June 2023

Website: grokk.ist/stillcuriouspodcast | Email: podcast@grokk.ist | Socials: @grokkist
Music: Kleptotonic Swing by Tri-Tachyon

Trudi Boatwright:

I avoided using the word, play, for years. Cuz nobody takes play seriously. You say creativity and people revere it and you say play and people dismiss it. People said, what do you do? And I'd say, oh, I'm a, um, well, I met, uh, got the arts and, and I'm, and experiential and it's communication. I got to a point where I was exhausted I just didn't have the energy to bullshit. And I said to someone, I teach people how to play, and they went, oh yeah, I like it. And I thought, all these years I've been trying to wrap this up as something else, but actually this is what I do.

Danu Poyner:

You're listening to these still curious podcast with me, Daniel pointer. My guest today is Trudy Boatwright and experiential designer, facilitator and creative, who specializes in plate. Trudy supports organizations in innovation, communication and team building through her rare combination of experiential learning applied in design thinking and play theory with workshops, programs, and journeys that are unique, effective, and an awful lot of fun. Trudy's journey has been particularly squiggly even by the standards of this podcast with a total of 48 different jobs ranging from working in a bikey bar to selling insurance. On the other hand, Trudy is also one of my very rare podcasts guests who not only had a clear plan, a but also achieved it.

It just, isn't what she's doing now.

Danu Poyner:

She began her journey in acting driven by a deep curiosity about people and how we behave. She describes being an arts practitioner in Australia is chronically underfunded art sector. As a life choice. Where you always need to have another form of income because it's simply too hard to sustain yourself on your arts practice alone. This is what people call their B roll, which explains many of those 48 jobs. But Trudy's plan a was. Well, trust me, it sounds better when she tells it.

Trudi Boatwright:

I was that little girl who said, when I grow up, I want to be an actor and I want to perform on the West end. And, language warning. Then I fucking did it. We created this incredible theater company, and we were moving and shaking in the London theater scene, and it was glorious. And then just after that happened, I have, what I like to call my etch-a-sketch moment. Where life went, actually, you know what? You will start again. Right? Let's just say, I couldn't stay in the UK anymore. I lost all my money. I lost my marriage, everything. Life just went, actually, you know what? Start again. So I did,

Danu Poyner:

back in Australia, Trudy was trying to make a go of things and started an immersive theater company in Melbourne. A turning point, came with a roll at the Starlight children's hospital as a captain Starlight, where she used play and storytelling to bring joy and laughter to seriously ill children and offer positive disruption from the stresses of medical treatment. This experience made clear to Trudy the power of purposeful play. And she went on to study, play therapy, learning how to use play to help individuals, process emotions, and experiences. One of Trudy's most memorable experiences was working in a women's prison where she used play to help incarcerated women prepare for job interviews. Realizing there was much that the business world could learn from the arts. Trudy began to consciously integrate her arts and business practice gradually transitioning into the corporate world, using her knowledge of play, to help organizations innovate and communicate more effectively and create more connected and empathetic workplaces.

Trudi Boatwright:

It will be no surprise for those that were following along it is really interweaving all of my skills and all of the things that I have been doing and that I love for over 20 years. I never thought they would all come together, but miraculously they have and I think everybody around me has been waiting and is nodding and saying, oh, finally she's made it all make sense. Thank goodness we've been waiting such a long time.

Danu Poyner:

Despite the twists and turns, Judy's curiosity about people and her passion for play have formed a red thread that runs throughout. She lights up most when helping people connect with their play personalities, knowing that the richness of human experience means no two people play the same.

Trudi Boatwright:

My most favorite part of the work that I do, is unlocking this feeling of, woo, being in a new space that feels slightly out of your comfort zone and fun and exciting and possible. I love seeing people just let go and just be them, that's when all the beautiful stuff comes out, when you just stop censoring yourself.

Danu Poyner:

This was a delightful and indeed playful conversation childlike while discussing topics that are far from child ish. I'm so excited to share it with you. Not least, because to me personally, it encapsulates why I do this show and what being. Uh, Grokker test is all about.

Trudi Boatwright:

For those of us who don't fit into a box, it's a very confusing journey because you're always sort of wafting around, not really sure how you express what it is that you do I was so excited to sit down and talk with you today because it made me feel like I made sense. there's something really wonderful about knowing that there is a tribe of people who all feel the same way and that it's starting to be appreciated. So, on behalf of all the grokkists, thank you very much.

Danu Poyner:

Enjoy. It's my conversation with Trudy bode, right? Coming up after the music on today's episode of the still curious podcast. Hi, Trudi, welcome to the podcast. How are you?

Trudi Boatwright:

I am very well. Thank you for having me this afternoon.

Danu Poyner:

Oh, you're very welcome. I've been looking forward to this. Normally I, I do an intro and rattle off the well packaged version of themselves that people have, but I thought, given you're a professional play specialist, we should maybe try something a bit more playful. What do you think?

Trudi Boatwright:

I think that's a great idea and I was thinking, because I advocate for trying new things, given our conversation today, why don't we try something new and let's talk about our varied lives together. So I thought I might start with making a statement about my working life and then you make a statement about your life that has some kind of association with it. Doesn't matter if it's a rough association, but shall we play something like that to start with?

Danu Poyner:

Let's see how it goes. I'm very interested to see what happens.

Trudi Boatwright:

Okay. This could go anywhere. This could be the wildest introduction ever. Okay. I left school as the high school school captain.

Danu Poyner:

Oh, well, I definitely did not, I dropped out of school.

Trudi Boatwright:

Uh, I dropped out of, Ooh, ooh. I dropped out of a course that was on chocolate making.

Danu Poyner:

Chocolate making, I haven't done anything as interesting as that, but I did a Thai cooking course. That's the closest I've done to making any food.

Trudi Boatwright:

Hmm. I once worked at a five star restaurant, which was renowned for its food in Canada, the Chateau Lake Louise.

Danu Poyner:

Amazing. I feel like I'm taking the opposite again, I once worked in a restaurant for three hours and then quit.

Trudi Boatwright:

I once worked in a factory for an hour and a half.

Danu Poyner:

Okay, well,

Trudi Boatwright:

on, uh, on, on detergent things.

Danu Poyner:

wow. Uh, I delivered pizzas for like an afternoon and quit that as well.

Trudi Boatwright:

Ooh, that's good. I have not delivered pizzas, but I got fired from my only job. I highly believe that everyone should get fired at least once. And that was because I organized a conference for an IT company where they were gonna eat pizza, but the conference venue was below ground where there was no internet access.

Danu Poyner:

Oh, okay. I wanna ask about the firing, but we won't do that. I was politely asked to leave from my job at the tax office because I wasn't taking it seriously enough.

Trudi Boatwright:

Um, we once got stormed by the tax office when I was doing some horrific telesales about some kind of home insurance company or something, and the fraud squad arrived.

Danu Poyner:

Oh, amazing. I had a telesales job for a little while, trying to get appointments for people so salespeople could sell Apple computers to them, and then that's how I ended up doing Apple stuff.

Trudi Boatwright:

How are we going? Do we know a bit about each other?

Danu Poyner:

I think that's probably more than I've shared with many people I know very well. So, I guess that's working quite well. What do you think?

Trudi Boatwright:

And that my friend is play. We are now connected. We know random things about each other, and we are only a couple of minutes into the podcast.

Danu Poyner:

Amazing. Well, I feel like all of those disclosures could quite easily derail the whole conversation. I do wanna ask about the putting lids on the detergent. How did that come about? What is that?

Trudi Boatwright:

Do you know what, I used to be really hidden and secretive about this. But because a lot of my career has been in the arts, a lot of actors always have a b roll. And when I've added up my jobs, I've had 48 different types of jobs. And the only one that I've walked away from was I got a job at like a pharmaceutical factory. And I spent the morning screwing lids on something and it was the only job that I was like, I cannot do this. I just can't do it. So I just walked away and I rang the company and I said, I'm sorry. Anything, anything but this. I was awful at it as well.

Danu Poyner:

How interesting. But the telesales was okay.

Trudi Boatwright:

Uh, yes, I've done more than my fair share of telesales, and I've had some incredibly interesting jobs right across my life. So it's given me a wealth of experience and random stories.

Danu Poyner:

Well, I'm very keen to hear about the random stories. You've mentioned 48, so how many of those can you rattle off like, uh, five or six of them?

Trudi Boatwright:

I'll give you some of my most random, I've run chocolate making workshops. I worked in a really high end medical agency on Harley Street in the UK. I've worked in a bikey bar, like a bar that was a Bikey Gangs bar. I've done telesales, definitely. I've sold everything left, right, and center. I've worked in making promotional material. I've done insurance. I've done all the boring ones as well. I've once had a job where I just had to get rid of checks. You know, at banks when a check has been cashed, they have to crunch all the checks.

Danu Poyner:

We could easily turn this into a whole conversation about weird jobs that do or don't exist anymore, and play a game about which ones we think are real. But what I think I'm gonna do is do your proper intro now, so that we have some gravitas for you as a guest. Okay. So you're an experiential designer, facilitator, and creative who specializes in play. You have a rare combination of experiential learning, applied improvisation, design thinking, and play theory, which you use to support organizations in innovation, communication, and team building by ensuring your workshops, programs, or journeys are unique, effective, and an awful lot of fun. What would you say is the most important thing for someone to understand about what you do?

Trudi Boatwright:

I think the most important thing is that I don't play for play's sake. There is always a purpose and a reason behind what I do. And it is that combination that I bring to every interaction that I have with either people or organizations.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah, that's a very interesting answer. I've noticed you're very careful in your talks and things to make a distinction between being playful and playing, which I've heard you talk about as the difference between being childlike and being childish. Do I have that right?

Trudi Boatwright:

Yes, absolutely. And I'm really passionate about it. There is such a societal connotation that comes with the word play. There is nothing wrong with either version of playing or playful but I really want to distinguish, particularly when I am using it in a work sense, that playing is this beautiful thing that we all do, this exquisite thing where it's really just play for play's sake. It's this lovely, beautiful thing that we all take part of in our lives. It's a richness, a rich tapestry in our lives. But being playful, it can have a purpose. You can have a purpose with being playful. You don't have to be immature when you are playful. It can have some very serious meanings. I've played in some very high stake situations and that is really the difference. There is something really innocent about playing, about being childish. Often when you watch children play, they're in this sort of space. They go with the flow. They have this real innocence to them. But I think being childlike actually has quite a mindful quality to it. Where you are really aware of where you are and what you're doing and the people that you're involved with. Playful is a mindset. I always say to people, you have a playful mindset, so there's a purpose and there's an awareness. Whereas playing can often be that sort of beautiful, frivolous joy that comes from children.

Danu Poyner:

What would you say is the purpose of a playful mindset?

Trudi Boatwright:

When you break it down and you look at the elements of having a playful mindset, it is really key human qualities and human traits. That is that curiosity that comes with a playful mindset. That is that awareness that comes with it, the connection to somebody else. Because it is actually a primal behavior in us. So it addresses primal needs in us, which is what the world, particularly at the moment is really striving for. That connection, that awareness, all of the things that the organizations talk about can come from that playful mindset. Even if you look back on really ancient wisdom. I went to this talk of this revered Buddhist monk in Italy and he was just this playful, jovial man who made jokes about funny things. And he was full of that playful energy.

Danu Poyner:

I feel like it's a lot easier to be open to considering other possibilities or having your mind changed or making connections, as you say, when you play, if only because it's disarming your normal guardedness that you enter into situations with. The disarming nature of playfulness.

Trudi Boatwright:

If you look at what everybody's, particularly in organizations at the moment, everybody's talking about things like, how do I keep things psychologically safe? How do I make my people connect? How do I retain them and keep them engaged in what I'm doing? All of those elements are very present when you're playing. You can't play if you don't feel safe, you just can't, and it is the immediate connector. That's how we relate to each other as human beings. And if you are having a good time, of course you're gonna stay where you are. So it hits that point as well. Once again, children are like little Buddhas. They just keep questioning why, why, why, why. It's a nice way to safely explore where your boundaries are.

Danu Poyner:

And speaking of boundaries, there's a phrase from game design that resonates with me a lot, which is,'possibility space'. In game design it means everything that can possibly happen within the rules of the game, but I think it connects very nicely to the ideas of play and curiosity because when you are able to be disarmed and put aside your social armor and be more open, then you can expand your possibility space. And I think that's one of the main benefits.

Trudi Boatwright:

Absolutely. One of my key and probably my longest influence in all of this is a woman called Viola Spolin. She is like the coolest, coolest woman, and she created theater games. She actually started from, Neva Boyd, who was a child psychologist and then, Viola Spolin. She's considered the grandmother of improvisation, and she actually developed these improvisational games for newly arrived migrants to the US actually. She believed that anybody could use these games to create theater, to create stories, to play. And her theory, which underpins everything I do, is this solving a problem with a problem, but also this idea of the approval disapproval space. We very much work in a space where, even from when we're little, we seek for that approval of our moms, our dads, our school friends, our teachers. And then that just continues on. We want the approval of our partner and our friends and we get so good at seeking approval that we sort of catch ourselves. We sort of stop ourselves before anything comes out that we think might be disapproved of. And when you create a game, you give yourself those borders so you feel safe in that space where you are free to create and you are free of that approval disapproval syndrome because you are grounded by the rules of the game and that's why it's so powerful. So yes, absolutely.

Danu Poyner:

Well, we're in furious agreement, I think. My question I guess is, does everyone play?

Trudi Boatwright:

Yes, everybody can play. We are very good as we get more adult to squash that side of us, but it's in there. It's born in us. It's primal. All animals know how to play it. It's pre-verbal. We all have the ability to play. It's what makes us humans. We are the only species with imagination, and that's the difference for us, but the larger the brain in the mammal, the more they play. It's how we learn. If you watch a baby trying to walk, it doesn't stand up, reach for something, fall over and then assess why that happened. It does it in a game. It's our natural way of learning things. So we all have it in us.

Danu Poyner:

I've heard you say people have play personalities and that no one plays the same though, so I'm curious to hear more about what you mean by that.

Trudi Boatwright:

Yeah. This is the beautiful thing. I'm a huge lover of the complexity of humans. We are just so divinely complex. I love that about human beings. What I find is that nobody plays the same, right? Everybody has things that will make each other tick differently, and everyone has things that they will enjoy that will put them in what they call like a play state. Dr. Stewart Brown, who's one of the leading scientists in the world of play, he identified that there's eight rough play personalities. You'll have a variety, but you'll essentially lean to one or the other. So it may be that you are a competitor. You may like that competitive thing. And when you are challenging someone and you are swimming hard against someone or whatever, it gives you that play state. You may be an artist, you may find that state of flow from painting or drawing, whatever it is. And it's something to be aware of when you are designing or working with someone or a group of people, how you tap into the things that are going to work for them, how you spark the things that work for them. Having said that, there's a lot of things that are just innately human in us that we all enjoy. There is a gentleman, Scott Aberle, and he breaks down the six elements of play. And that's, poise and strength and anticipation. Anticipation is one of my favorites because as humans we all have that thing about anticipation. We all have that thing about surprise. And that's a common thread in human beings. And sometimes I find in my work, I will occasionally get a little bit rattled and think, oh gosh, I can't go in there and do this with IT leaders or transport workers, and often people will say to me, oh no, I don't play. I don't do play. But they're usually the people that at the end of the day engaged and sweating and talking nonstop and you've reignited something in them.

Danu Poyner:

You mentioned examples of high stakes play before. What's an example of high stakes play that you've been involved in?

Trudi Boatwright:

So, there's some variety of high stakes play. One of my most favorite jobs that I did was I went into the women's prison, both Taran Gall and Dame Phyllis, I think the two women's prisons. It was for a project for women. It was a great program, run by Fitted for work, and these are women who'd signed up. They wanted to change their life, and it's really, really difficult for them because the odds are stacked against them. They're in prison. There's a huge number of domestic violence in women's prisons. So to break outta that system is really difficult. And they were nervous about, doing job interviews because of their past. The tricky thing is too, they don't want to reveal really what they're in prison for. There's a lot of keeping things close to their chest. I took an actor in and, instead of running mock job interviews, we flipped it around and we made them a board and they interviewed the actor and it gave them this lovely sense of freedom to be able to ask questions for the actor. Like, oh what would she say if she'd was in here, how would she respond? What I didn't expect is to see how empowered they felt because they're in a system where they don't often feel a lot of power. Similarly, at the children's hospital, we would be playing games in really high stake situations with some really seriously ill children. And it's exactly what was needed. If you look at the way that you use play in these situations, you can definitely have a huge, huge impact.

Danu Poyner:

I've been doing a bit of stuff with narrative coaching lately, which is all about seeing people's stories and then the promise is, see the story, change the story because you can step into it and participate in it and move around in a different way. And that gives you agency in a way that people don't always have when they just tell their story. So that was a very clear parallel to me with the example you just gave. It's really powerful stuff.

Trudi Boatwright:

Yes. And it is, this work can be incredibly powerful. I'm very passionate, as you say, to step into. I would also physically ask people to step into, I did a wonderful workshop the other day where I got everybody to literally walk as one person in the room. So that person walked up and down and then everybody walked as them, and then the person stepped out and watched eight or nine people walking as themselves. And it was this incredible moment for them. And the people literally stepped into this person's shoes, suddenly understood so much more, sort of saying, oh, you must, you know, very strong shoulders. And it was just this incredible moment occurred through just simply playing.

Danu Poyner:

I feel like I'm still playing the association game cuz that story is reminding me of when I was at high school and I was in a class and people would make fun of my walk a lot. I had a really up and down sort of walk and these kids would mock me and follow behind me and imitate my walk and that wasn't fun. So the context in which that happens is really important. So does the play come before the psychological safety or does the psychological safety come first, or does one create the other?

Trudi Boatwright:

Ah, ooh, you've hit on a little passion button of mine. As you said, we grow up and we get confined, and that includes play, right? You cannot step into a room and, you know, woo. We are here to play guys. It's never, ever, ever going to work. There is a very subtle process and a very important process, a vital process that has to happen to get people into a psychologically safe space so they can do that with each other. I would never, ever start a workshop off like that. I would make sure that we have all built trust together first. We all feel safe enough so that something like that didn't happen. There is an art form to this, and the art form is that people need to be slowly led. You need to dust off. You can't just dive into these things because you have to make sure that you are one unit, a safe unit before. I call it the boiling frog.

Danu Poyner:

So how do you boil the frog if you are starting cold. How do you start cold with a group of guarded or default hostile people.

Trudi Boatwright:

My favorite challenge. I don't wanna give away all my secrets, but it's gotta be a really slow burn, right? My other passion point, you're touching on all of them one by one is, um, the mind body connection, right? Physically, we completely underestimate the power of our bodies and the way our minds and bodies work together. We all know we go, oh, 70 to 90% of how we communicate is nonverbal, and now we're going to learn something. So everybody sit down and don't move your body, which makes no sense to me, If 70 to 90% of our communication is nonverbal, why isn't 70 to 90% of our learning? Now, our bodies have memory. Our bodies hold and store things. Our bodies send messages to our brain about how we are feeling about something. So to me, the key to unlocking and getting people into that play state is just by slowly getting your body involved. And it may be the smallest thing, right? It may be a little game with your hands. Because I really articulate being comfortable with failure and trying new things and being brave enough. I ask people to be brave. So I have made a promise to myself that I must also be brave. I must also try at least one new thing in every single workshop or presentation or keynote that I do, because I'm asking that of people. I must walk my talk. I've got a little lineup of games that I wanna try and one of them is I wanna play music and just have you dance but just one little body part. So it might just be like your little pinky and just dance with your little pinky or just one little tiny thing. And then once the body starts to get involved, the mind will follow. And that's for me, one of the key little ingredients to unlocking even the most hostile. I've been at a conference all day. I'm often booked as the post lunch speaker, which everybody shudders about, but I like the challenge.

Danu Poyner:

I can hear the passion for these points that we're talking. When did you first start to take play seriously? Cause the play specialist is not, I imagine the kind of thing that occurs to anyone to be their plan A.

Trudi Boatwright:

No, um, how did you get here? This question made me smile. I was like, Hmm. How did I get here? Ooh. Like most things, the best lessons in life often burst from challenge. My mother has this incredible saying, and I live my life by it, whenever something goes wrong, she always says a diamond is just a rock until it's had the shit pummeled out of it, right? But it's kind of true. Usually out of tragedy comes some epiphany. So I avoided using the word, play, for years. Cuz nobody takes play seriously. I got to a point where I was exhausted and I just didn't have the energy to bullshit. And I said to someone, I teach people how to play, and they went, oh yeah, I like it. And I thought, all these years I've been trying to uh, wrap this up as something else, but actually this is what I do.

Danu Poyner:

This is quite a recent thing then.

Trudi Boatwright:

Yes. Yes, it is. The playing is not recent. The pulling off my cloak to reveal myself as a play person is.

Danu Poyner:

Okay. I want to hear more about that. Take me all the way back though, because you've got a very interesting, I like to say squiggly career. What was plan A? Did you have a plan A?

Trudi Boatwright:

Um, do you know I am one of those freaky people who got my plan A,

Danu Poyner:

Yes, there is one. Like the second person on here.

Trudi Boatwright:

Well, I'm gonna break people's bubbles today cuz I was that little girl who said, when I grow up, I want to be an actor and I want to perform on the West end. And, language warning. Then I fucking did it. And you know what happens when you get your dreams, then what?

Danu Poyner:

Yeah.

Trudi Boatwright:

I've had this random life. I went to London. I had the most incredible time. I met the most wonderful people. We created this incredible theater company, and we were moving and shaking in the London theater scene, and it was glorious. And I was in this play on the West End. It was the Soho Theater. It was only little, and it was only a little run, but there was something in it that, to me, I had achieved. And then just after that happened, I have, what I like to call my etch-a-sketch moment. So I had this little moment in my life where life went, actually, you know what? You will start again. Right? Let's just say, I couldn't stay in the UK anymore. I lost all my money. I lost my marriage, everything. Life just went, actually, you know what? Start again. So I did, I started again.

Danu Poyner:

Okay. Let me come back to the Plan A, because, how did you know you wanted to be an actor on the West End? Tell me more about that.

Trudi Boatwright:

I think that's a family thing. I don't really know. It was just in me since I was a little girl. I actually wanted to become a famous actress, and I wanted to go out and get between a harpoon and a whale. And if they killed me, there would be outrage around the world and the whales would be saved. And if they didn't, I could report back and the whales would be saved.

Danu Poyner:

Okay.

Trudi Boatwright:

there's always been a balance for me between arts and humanities, which I think is my background. My grandfather was one of Australia's leading entertainers of his time. He wrote Australia's first radio jingle. He was a radio star. And my uncle is, uh, post-production sound. My mom's a writer. My uncle is actually the voice of Skippy, he was the sound guy, so it was in the family. As I grew up and as I worked through my career as an actor, I realized that I got into acting because of this deep curiosity for how humans behave and how humans work.

Danu Poyner:

Have you figured it out yet? How people work?

Trudi Boatwright:

Hope I never do. I hope none of us ever do. Please let nobody find the answer to human beings cuz we are gloriously mysterious.

Danu Poyner:

yeah, it's like people are the same wherever you go in time and space, but also every person is unrepeatably different. That's what I like about that problem. yeah, yeah,

Trudi Boatwright:

Yes. And I think I learned that very young. I was blessed with some really unique experiences when I was a young girl. I was working in a bikey bar in Sydney when I was just 18. I was sort of there in that end of town. And then I went traveling and did my backpacking thing to Canada where I was suddenly serving Lyndon Johnson's, of the president, whatever you say, and it taught me that humans are the same no matter where we are, we are all the same.

Danu Poyner:

This is the second time you've mentioned the Bikey bar, so I wanna hear a bit more context.

Trudi Boatwright:

If you look at what I do, it's a very random combination and I do think it comes back to this sense of curiosity about humans. And I would work the bar and I was very highly respected, but then other women would come in that were very badly treated. And I would say to the head guy like, why is that? And I learned there is a real sort of culture within a culture there, within the world of bikeys that is very respectful in some ways. It was a really eye-opening experience for me as a young woman to understand that life is complex and very gray. It is not black and white. I had these experiences when I was young, and I think that sort of gave me the bug to go on and continue to experience life and take what I can from that experience and then use it to help people find their own abilities and skills and passions and really appreciate themselves for who they are.

Danu Poyner:

I'm really struck by the way that you are very intentional about pursuing your curiosity. You're kind of willing to go wherever it goes, but also there's a selecting quality there. You mentioned that that experience that we just talked about clarified for you that life is very gray, and then you wanted to find out more about that in the world. Where has that taken you, that curiosity, that's most surprised you?

Trudi Boatwright:

A lot of my twists and turns have been surprising and, externally, somewhat confusing for people who live a life of social normity. I think at one point when I moved back from London after I'd hit my plan A, I came back to Sydney and life just wasn't working for me. Everywhere I turned its doors just weren't opening. So, I thought, okay, I really need to get myself way outta my comfort zone. So the best thing to do is to go somewhere where you don't know anyone and then you will have to make drastic changes. So I threw everything I owned into my car and everything I owned was like a carload full and like$400, and I drove down to Melbourne. And that's probably an interesting turn of events that I didn't expect that that curiosity led to. One of the reasons why I became an actor is that, I'm also very passionate. You go and see a performance and you see an actor on stage who steps through the steps and knows their lines and that's great. But what you don't understand is all of the work that happens in a rehearsal room. And that work also involves a great deal of research into who this person is. You will play someone who's an etymologist, and then you will dive into the world of etymology, or you will play a firefighter and suddenly you know all of these things about firefighting and you immerse yourself in those people, in those characters., and conversely, I have spent many years role-playing and I still do. I still write scenarios and work in the world of role play. That's what actually introduced me to experiential learning. That was the door for me of how powerful that can be. And once again, you've gotta learn about a whole work culture, whole organization. It's that that's really driven me in these random directions in my life. And boy, I've done some random things. I was telling my partner yesterday, thinking about an acting job that I had. It was for a commercial in the uk and it was called, uh, Get Yourself an Extra Hundred Megs. And there were a hundred Meg Ryan lookalikes, and we were in a cafe and these boys were gonna come and sit opposite us. They didn't know what was gonna happen, but we were all going to start from one to a hundred, and it was gonna be like this ripple effect. We were all gonna do that fake orgasm scene from When Harry Met Sally and you had to get rated on your fake orgasm. And I got rated number five out of a hundred. I was pretty impressed with my fake orgasm.

Danu Poyner:

good.

Trudi Boatwright:

But it was just this random moment where you're sitting in a room full of women you don't know, opposite a man you don't know, and you have to count the orgasm sounds and then when you're ready, launch into this.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah. I feel like we're not gonna top that as far as most random goes. I think that's it, isn't it?

Trudi Boatwright:

Right. Not many people have had the opportunity.

Danu Poyner:

Okay. Let's not skip over the amazing fact that you achieved your self-declared plan A of being an actor on the west end, and enjoyed some success with that. What was that like?

Trudi Boatwright:

Well, inevitably humans, we are really great at thinking what we want is what we want, but it actually is nothing like we want. The highlight for me being in the UK is creating this incredible short play festival. It was a really exciting, exhausting, wonderful time. where we launched it, and I'll never forget the day, we'd put a lot of time and a lot of effort into starting this up. And I was sitting at work, I was working for a sales company in the uk and I was sitting at my desk and I put my head down on the desk and I thought, this is too much work. We're never gonna get this across the line. And my mobile phone rang and I picked it up, and it was this woman, she said, oh, you know, hi, I am Heather. I'm Helen Mirren's, pa. And I said, oh, um, yes, hello? And she said, yes, we got your information about Helen Mirren joining your panel cuz we had a panel of celebrities. She said she can't make the panel but she just wanted me to ring you and to tell you she thinks what you're doing is a remarkable idea. And I said, thank you so much. Do you think she would give us a quote for our marketing? And she said, I know she will. I'll get back to you with it shortly. And I put down the phone and I thought, ah, I can do this. So that was actually the highlight in the middle of that was when I did this play on the west end and got it. I did it, I achieved my goal, but it didn't feel anything like the magic I thought it would cuz it was shrouded in the real stuff around the edges.

Danu Poyner:

Thank you for sharing that story. Let's complete the story and bring us up to the pandemic. So you've finished up in the UK and come back to Sydney. You've put your stuff in the car and you've driven down to Melbourne. What happens from there?

Trudi Boatwright:

Um, I land a role at the Royal Children's Hospital as a Captain Starlight and that was sort 12, 13 years ago now that I landed in Melbourne. I started up an immersive theater company, which is still going, in fact, watch this space around that. There's some exciting things happening there. And it was at the children's Hospital that I really started to understand the power of play. And it was as a Captain Starlight, that I really understood how it is playful, not playing. And that was really the turning point towards what I'm doing now. I was there for five years and it really gave me a grounding and an understanding of how to use play for a purpose, and the power that it can have and the feelings that can be generated from a playful activity.

Danu Poyner:

I'd be really interested to hear a little bit more about that role. I can sense that that's a very important turning point and also what's at stake in that kind of playful situation. Would you like to talk a bit more about what the role of Captain Starlight is?

Trudi Boatwright:

Yeah. So, for anyone who donates anyone who supports the Starlight Foundation, your support is invaluable because their work is amazing. And Starlight Captains, we are in the Children's Hospital. There are Starlight Express rooms that have arts and crafts and all sorts of things for children to come and do. And then Starlight Captains also visit children's wards and we travel around, similar to clown doctors, but different, a lot of respect for the clown doctors. They're awesome, they're amazing. But a similar vibe. Captain Starlight comes from another planet. And the idea is to create this positive disruption. So it's all about creating that moment. And yes, it is for the children who are in the hospital. It is for the siblings who are in the hospital system. But I also felt like it was vital for the parents. But, what I started to find was, there was some great things that came about once again, just through playing. I used to have something called Break the Rules Sunday, where we used to get the train to Cheekyville, not the bus to Naughty Town, right. And often it would be just things I had to do, I might have to rip up cardboard because I had to take it to the recycling. So I'd make a game of it. And all the kids, we'd have a demolition party where we'd like tear up cardboard. and, for the children who are in there, if you are in the hospital system, you don't ever have a chance to feel naughty. You can't feel naughty because you have to abide by rules and medical procedures. So there was this little sense of feeling that was wonderful. I used to have a thing called a bag of shit prizes, and they were just things that we'd wanna get rid of. I used to wrap them up. Kids used to come running for this bag of shit prizes. They'd just want a shit prize.

Danu Poyner:

What was the shittest price in the bag?.

Trudi Boatwright:

Oh I would do things like, I would take like one egg carton or just a random half a pencil, shitty things. it was those little things that I started to realize were more than just playing, to empower someone, to help someone learn. We always had great respect for the hospital staff, that their job was their job. But sometimes a physio would also use us. We would create a game to help a child's stretch for something so that they would do their physio. There were all of these ways that children in isolation, we couldn't see them, but they had a window. So you'd go and hide things in the bushes so that they had something to do through the window. And of course that would get them looking outside. Cuz it's a hospital system, you have to be very careful of germs, you know, hugging and stuff, it's difficult to do. So we would often change a hug into a high five. And this one little guy, he came to give me a hug and I turned it into a high five. And he said, captain, what are you doing? And quickly on my feet, I said, oh, it's international high five day, don't you know that? And he was like, no, what's that? I said, well, I give you this high five and then you've gotta go out and you've gotta give five people that high five. And on it goes around the world today it's international high five day. said, okay, cool, cool, cool. And he totted out of the room. It was about four hours later and I went to have lunch and I went to the cafe and I looked up and I went to pay for my lunch. And the canteen lady, she held out her hand I looked at her and she said, it's international high five day. It felt amazing, and it felt like that's the power of play. That's the power of what it can do if we put some thought behind it, if we are playful rather than playing.

Danu Poyner:

You mentioned before that people sometimes find the many twists and turns in your journey a little hard to follow, make sense of. There must have been quite a few people invested in your trajectory as an actor and the high point of the West End and getting Helen Mirren's endorsement on your work. How are the people around you making sense of this transition that you've made to working at the Starlight Children's Hospital?

Trudi Boatwright:

Look, I think it made a lot of sense. Anybody who has come across me or my work understands that always that tension between arts and humanities. I also think, and I will say this boldly and unapologetically that Australia does not value its arts like other countries in the world. If you are to be an arts practitioner in this country, it is a life choice and it is a hard one. And often you'll find that people have what they call their B roll, which is where you will have another form of income because you cannot sustain yourself on your arts practice. So it will be as no surprise for those that were following along that I took the turn into Starlight and then have gone into this way of being playful. It is really interweaving all of my skills and all of the things that I have been doing and that I love for over 20 years. I never thought they would all come together, but miraculously they have and I think everybody around me has been waiting and is nodding and saying, oh, finally she's made it all make sense. Thank goodness we've been waiting such a long time.

Danu Poyner:

Oh, well these things have a way of coming back with even more force when they seem like they're taking a long time. Well, let's continue from Starlight then. What happens then after the high five moment and what causes you to move on?

Trudi Boatwright:

I spent five years actually working as a facilitator and an actor in a simulation center for construction, funnily enough, for teaching communication skills within the construction industry in a simulation center. I was doing simulated work and simulation work back in 2001 when it was sort of freaky way of training, like, ooh, this freaky thing we are using actors in training. And during that time through a mutual friend in London, I met a woman called Kate, Kate Crawshaw. That was in arts, in the theatre background, and she was working a lot in business and wanted more arts in her life. And I was working in arts and thought there was a real goldmine in business. I was like, there's so much can be learned in from the business world by using arts. So, we got together and formed a business, Serious Woo. And I built that up with her for five years. And then during Covid, for varying reasons, it just became too hard for me to continue on. So she's continued on with Serious Woo and I have taken this sideways trajectory.

Danu Poyner:

So in the simulation center, was there a, play component built into that, or was that something you brought in?

Trudi Boatwright:

I like to say that role play has the word play in it, so, I would do two roles. I would work as a facilitator or an observer, and coach the feedback and coach the growth and the learning of the participants. But the participants themselves would go down into a simulator building site. It's got a big hundred, 80 degree, 11 meter high screen or something. And 12 site sheds that all correlate and actors would burst in and they would run scenarios. There was an element of play in the sense that it was very experiential learning in the sense that they would experience a scenario, they would come back, we would reflect on it, we would think through it, use it, thinking through it, and then they would go back again for another go. So there was definitely an element of play. It probably wasn't as physically engaging as it is now, although we were in a physical simulation together. But it was definitely experiential learning.

Danu Poyner:

So if I understand this right, in the Starlight role it really occurred to you the power of purposeful play. And then in the simulation center there was a realization of what a need there is for experiential learning and play as an unlocking thing in business.

Trudi Boatwright:

So the building blocks started in applied improvisation. That's my background. I went to the US and I worked with Bob Moyer and another gentleman who are brilliant, brilliant, Max, Bob and Max. So my background was the improvisation, and that's been tinkering along the whole time. And then when I got into role playing and scenario work, I learned about the experiential learning cycle. And that was, once again, way back when it was only firstly developed and became a huge advocate of how that works in terms of embedding learning. And then as we went along, Starlight showed me that I could actually use play theory to embed that learning through the experiential learning. And the tool I could use was improvisational tools. And then design came in at the end, I kept bumping into this design thinking, design thinking, and I was so curious. And then I had a a meeting with a gentleman, called Ash Leary. He works for Taxi, which is an incredible organization and he was telling me about the work that they do in the human-centered design world. And my eyes widened. It was exactly what I was doing. so that led me down that path. And so the design part of it is actually finding the tools and almost the process of all of the others. That's sort of where the four bricks entered.

Danu Poyner:

I'd love to hear a little bit about that process, because I find there's often a moment when you have this conscious thought that I know I have I've got all the ingredients on my table, but I don't know how they go together in what ordering, start trying stuff and it feels kind of close but out of reach at the same time and then it comes together somehow. It's a really weird mystical process. I wondered how that is for you.

Trudi Boatwright:

Yes, Oh, oh, it's a weird one. And it's taken a long time. So I learned about design and then I decided, yes, I really want to be good at this. So I'm currently doing a Master's of Design Futures at RMIT. There was a moment in that where we were given this sort of encyclopaedia of organizations that are doing work around the world. And I squealed. It was like I'd suddenly found words for what I did and how I did it. And it was really exciting. I hate boxes, and people say, what do you do? And I'm like, oh, if you don't fit in a box, it's really, really difficult. And so I think for those of us who don't fit into a box, it's a very confusing journey because you're always sort of wafting around, not quite sure how to describe yourself, not really sure how you express what it is that you do, but you know what you do and the people that you work with know what you do. It's just how do you put it in that box for everybody else who's not used to different shapes.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah. Finding your red thread is the language I've settled on.

Trudi Boatwright:

I love your red thread.

Danu Poyner:

well, yeah, it's really interesting that language because people intuitively grab onto it, even though it's not entirely clear what it means. It means something to everyone. This comment someone made, I can feel my red thread is close, but I feel like I can't reach out and grab it. I thought that was a really physical, tangible way of thinking about it. Was there a moment when it came together for you in that way, all the different blocks and pieces, or was that the moment that you told me about before when you just blurted out? I help people play.

Trudi Boatwright:

Yes. That was the moment and it really was a lot of soul searching and a lot of, my life has never made sense. Everybody around is like, you've had their most extremely incredible experiences, how do you tie them together? And when I sat down and pulled it all apart, it was that moment of truly understanding what I do and truly understanding the value of what I do. That felt wonderful because, I'm not a pressure cooker. I have been a slow cooker, but the stew is richer and deeper and more nutritious.

Danu Poyner:

What did you do the rest of that day when you had that, oh, this is my thing.

Trudi Boatwright:

I don't think it comes as a lightning bolt. I think it's a gradual realization. And for me it was when people said, what do you do? And I'd say, oh, I'm a, um, well, I met, uh, like I, got the arts and, and I'm, and experiential and it's communication. And I would, um and ahh and then one day somebody said, what do you do? And I said, oh, I'm a mashup between experiential designer, applied improvisation, play theory. And it just rattled off my tongue and I thought, oh, I got it. I do truly believe that if you are really, truly passionate and happy in what you do, you will be excellent at it. And I feel very blessed that I do wake up in the morning and I do step forward. I have no problem working on a weekend because I genuinely love what I do and I feel very blessed to have that.

Danu Poyner:

Thank you. That really comes through in the way that you talk as well.

Trudi Boatwright:

Thank you.

Danu Poyner:

I like to talk to and about people who I call grokkists, who people who are led by curiosity and have a thirst for learning, and have squiggly careers and multihyphenate ways of describing themselves and have this drive to leave things better than they've found them. This is language, it's taken me a while to put together and give the name, Grokkist, but is that grokkist idea something that resonates with you?

Trudi Boatwright:

I've been following your journey for a while and it's nice to see that it's come through, that grokkist is cemented, that that idea is cemented. So, yes, I love it and I think there's something really wonderful about knowing that there is a tribe of people who all feel the same way and that it's starting to be appreciated. It was actually Simon Sinek who was talking about being a generalist and the pride that you should feel in being a generalist. That made me out myself with my high job number of 48 jobs. and it's nice to find a group of people who are enjoying that and seeing the value in that.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah. Thanks for that and thanks for making that comparison as well. It's continues to be a really interesting journey for me to find the other kind of similar language and concepts that people use. Generalists is one and multi-potentialites and Renaissance people and hummingbirds and all sorts of other language. It has this way of uniting people from completely different walks of life and experiences who don't necessarily even have a lot in common, except this way of being and living and just getting those people together, it's just blows my mind every time.

Trudi Boatwright:

It's really important because, I think humans need a little bit of a shake. You know, we are told that these things are really important. And I think when you find a group of people that realize that, yeah, maybe there's a bit more to it, it's exciting. It's really exciting. So, on behalf of all the grokkists, thank you very much.

Danu Poyner:

Oh, thank you, Trudi. I have a few things more to ask you about what your life looks like now, kind of post threshold moment of embracing the life as a play specialist. What does your life a play specialist look like these days?

Trudi Boatwright:

It's lovely. It's varied. I have been really enjoying the keynote speaking. It's not something you hear a lot of people say. It scares the bejesus outta most people. But I actually really love it. For me, there is that element of performance, of improvisation, of comedy. There's all the things that I have spent 20 years learning rolled into one. On top of that, I feel like it also helps people, not only just in their working world, but in their private lives. I have people come up to me afterwards and tell me that, you know, oh, you've inspired me to go home and do A, B, and C. It's reaching people. And so that combination is really wonderful. So, if anyone's out there and listening and wants a post lunch speaker that isn't going to make everyone fall asleep, that's how much I actually enjoy it. I don't mind the post lunch slot. My real thing is about solving a problem with a problem, right? So often people will come to me and they'll say, I have this problem. Can you solve it in a playful way? I love a problem solving challenge, and I love to do that through workshops and facilitation. And people are really moved. I also work with some incredible people on that front too. It's not just me. I also partner up with and assist the great work of others. And I love that, because they're brilliant, smart women, mostly women, funnily enough. So I have that side of my world where I do workshops and facilitation. I do that side of my world, which I'm really trying to grow, which is my keynote and my presenting because I'm loving it. and then I have the other side where occasionally I have people who want consultation or one-on-one or really feel like they're lacking in their lives and would really like to become more playful with their day-to-day. It's more creativity coaching than play, although I believe they're highly intertwined. But that's more of a creativity coaching.

Danu Poyner:

I watched your keynote panel at the design Outlook conference recently. I was interested in the way that you juxtapose creativity with play because creativity tends to be celebrated in corporate culture, but play is sometimes treated as suspicious. You gave an example of an organization deciding to hold a creativity afternoon versus a play afternoon. So some would say there are ways of being creative without necessarily being playful, but I'm interested in this idea of them being intertwined and if you could unpack that a little bit more.

Trudi Boatwright:

Sure. You know, creativity is this really highly valued skill. I think, HBR have recognized it as the most valuable employable skill of the future.

Danu Poyner:

That's Harvard Business Review for people playing

Trudi Boatwright:

Business Review. Sorry, I just rattled off an acronym. Like a boss. HBR, if you don't mind. Yes. We definitely know our things about the Harvard Business Review. Creative thinking is the number one employable skill for the future. So everybody is talking about creativity, and I love it. It's my world that I live in. I run courses on it with the Institute for Experiential Learning. We offer a course on the creative thinking process, and I believe that creativity and play are intrinsically linked. The difference is the reputation. You say creativity and people revere it and you say play and people dismiss it. My question and my provocation is I don't think you can be creative without being playful. Being creative is really about creating new ideas and concepts and thinking outside the box. And in order to do that, you have to play around.

Danu Poyner:

I find that really interesting because the language that they do use to describe that kind of play is all about failure and failing fast and iteration but that is playing around, isn't it?

Trudi Boatwright:

You are welcome to fail. Please feel free to fail. Just make sure that you do it in a timely manner and don't waste our time and get it right the first time. But other than that, you feel free to fly. But don't be playful.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah. What's that about?

Trudi Boatwright:

It's our fear. In order to fail, you've gotta be brave and you've got to put yourself out there, right? You've really gotta try something. Earlier today, we tried something we'd never done before. We could have looked like idiots in front of everybody.

Danu Poyner:

Maybe we did. That's

Trudi Boatwright:

maybe we did look, it wasn't the most successful choice, but hey, we tried. And I think that's really important. As humans, we are very good at talking the talk, but the pressures around us are great and are we really free to fail? There are some organizations who do it very well. But once again, when you look at those organizations, they often do it really well because they get really playful.

Danu Poyner:

That leads me to another question that I had off the back of watching that talk, which was very interesting, by the way. So the panel had leaders of design teams in corporates, and one of them was saying that it's important to not ask for permission to preserve the weirdness of design. And that design teams need to advocate for that weirdness and creativity because who else in the organization is gonna do that if not them, and who's gonna drive that culture, but, there is that underlying thing that you're talking about where there's pressure for outcomes and results and are we really free to be weird and do those things. So design teams that are weird are maybe at risk of getting cut when the organization stops seeing the value of their approach. So I'm interested in how you navigate that tension about the organizational value of play in a corporate setting, and in business terms, if you can describe the value chain of play in an organization.

Trudi Boatwright:

Yes. That is one of my challenges and that challenge is about having an organization trust the process. I had some wonderful panel guests at Design Outlook. They were all amazing, and as Brendan said, you can't just be weird without a result at the end. You can't be weird all the time. You have to have something to back up your weirdness and what is interesting for me is that often, what I met against is a lack of trust that it will work, right? A lot of people will say, we want our team to be engaged and connected, or we wanna innovate something for our strategy. And I say, okay, we're gonna start by playing stuck in the mud and they go, what? So, it does take some bravery from an organization to step forward. What I do find is that those organizations who trust the process then reap the rewards. It's about being really clear on what your problem is, and it's being really clear to them how the work that I bring will solve that problem. For me, it's about having really clear communication in saying to you, I'm not just coming in to play stuck in the mud. I'm coming in to let people experience stuck in the mud. And then we reflect on the fact that when one person touches the other, you immediately know to freeze and you don't think about it and what does that say to us about our habits. There is always a reasoning behind what we do.

Danu Poyner:

I think I heard you say it's about getting agreement about trusting the process. And the process seems to be about making the space to develop this kind of environment out of which will come something. And we don't know exactly what it is, but something will come.

Trudi Boatwright:

What will come out of it is the problem that they want to be solved. The value chain for an organization is often they say, we know that there's problems within our organization, but we need them to come to the surface safely, right? So I'll work out ways that we can do activities, and we do a workshop or something where all of a sudden as a group so that nobody's exposed all of the issues come to the surface and the managers say, I don't know how you did that, but wow, okay, we're gonna take all of those and it's given us something to work on. So it's being really clear on what is your problem that you wanna solve as your organization? This is how I can solve that problem with what I do. And then the steps, like the follow up. And if you look at what a lot of organizations use my work for, it's innovation. We want our people to think differently and come up with different things. It is connection. We want our staff to feel safe. It is psychological safety. We need them to communicate something, but we need it to be done in a safe environment. And ultimately, often the one that I find the hardest to prove is the retention. If you can instill in your workplace a playful culture, people wanna stay longer. But I'm yet to prove that.

Danu Poyner:

Do you ever find that the process of purposeful play ends up revealing that the problem that they thought they wanted to solve is actually not the problem? Does that ever happen?

Trudi Boatwright:

All the time. All the time. Do you know what, this is actually really remarkable. Let me explain. I did this one workshop where it was all about communication, right? And they wanted the people to communicate this new package that was going from something that was given to somebody, to something that was suddenly being sold. So they wanted their reps to be out there and rather than know how to give it away, they wanted to sell it. And they thought it was about communication and relationship building, right? So they got me in, and we're doing this workshop about relationship building. And all of a sudden what uncovered was actually, it's not the relationship building, it's the fact that they don't like talking about money, because that's not their background, These are pharmacists. It's not their background to talk about money, and they felt awkward about it. So the beautiful thing is that this is where the improvisation comes in. We had a 15 minute break. We scrapped the rest of the workshop and we pivoted so that we actually practiced the real problem. And the real problem was how do we overcome that conversation about money? What I didn't know was that one of the people in the workshop was actually the owner of the company. She didn't tell me she was the owner of the company until the end of the workshop. I would've hated to know. She came up at the end and said, look, I just wanna let you know that I'm such and such and I own this company, and thank you so much for uncovering what is the real problem within here?

Danu Poyner:

Do you think that play is an appropriate method to use for every organization, or are there some kind of problems to be solved that that's not really the best solution?

Trudi Boatwright:

I think play can be used in every organization, but I don't think play can be used to solve every problem. I'm not delusional in the fact that I think you can run a multimillion dollar business just by using play. There's certain elements of an organization that you can't be playful about. If you are talking about IT security or

Danu Poyner:

I reckon you could do that.

Trudi Boatwright:

well, actually, do you know, I did,

Danu Poyner:

Yeah. Let's hear it.

Trudi Boatwright:

That was awesome. So I created a game for someone around safety. Like why it's important to be cyber aware and cyber secure. And it was like a quiz game and it was like a race against time game and it worked a treat. So I think you can, But I also feel like a lot of people come to me and say, I've gotta teach people a computer program

Danu Poyner:

Yeah. Oracle.

Trudi Boatwright:

Oracle. Right. I think you can make that playful.

Danu Poyner:

I guess what's sitting in my head is more the example of workplace trauma from toxic culture that's not been addressed, even though officially it's been addressed.

Trudi Boatwright:

Yeah, and that's why I say HR issues as well. Actually, one of the things that I'm doing in terms of combining arts, play and business at the moment is I'm writing an interactive multimedia play around breaking open mental health conversations. But I'm also under no illusion that for that you need the proper people and the appropriate people to be involved. That's why I say HR. Anything that steps into that trauma region, psychological safety is my number one.

Danu Poyner:

yeah, Well, what advice would you give to individuals or organizations who are thinking about incorporating more play and creativity into their work?

Trudi Boatwright:

I always suggest to people little tiny steps to start. if you want to get really playful, if you want me to design a program, get me in. If you wanna move beyond the paddle pool, contact me and we can design something together. But if you are starting, it's the little tiny things. It's about, how can I do this differently to create fun, to create anticipation. We love to compete. We love racing against things, figuring things out. With our immersive theater that we make through the theater company, one of the best things is people running around trying to work out what's happening and put all the pieces together from the characters. Humans, we love to explore and crack codes and conquer things. So what can you do to make things conquerable? Often people will be like, okay, we're going to play a game. So, Danu, you can you please start by telling us your, and putting everything on the spot. So I would say to people, really think about your audience and think about what they are capable of and comfortable with. My sister is the polar opposite to me, a high introvert. And I put her in the forefront of my mind whenever I'm designing anything. And I say, would she do this? And if the answer is yes, it's in. So that's the other thing I would suggest. Start small, add just those little elements, and consider who you are dealing with so that you don't take anyone out of their comfort zone. It's a very fine line.

Danu Poyner:

I've been marinating in your newsletter for a little while before, um, you know, I'd like to just spend time in someone's world with before I reach out and you have these little suggestions for playful activities that are quite bite sized and implementable. And one of the ones I enjoyed the most was the suggestion about putting googly eyes on things and to form a new, new relationship. It did actually make me very tempted to put googly eyes on your face on the artwork when this goes out. I don't think I will do that. But it is very tempting.

Trudi Boatwright:

Do you know? It is the simplest thing, but by God it works. It's incredible. Apparently we're hardwired to do it or something, but it's those little things, right? It's so good. Yes. I'm so glad you like it. Awesome.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah, so I enjoyed that. I'm wondering about my own sense of playfulness, which has got to do a lot with having fun with language and subverting expectations. One of my favorite playful activities to amuse myself is deliberately misinterpreting marketing, you know, posters and things. And I remember Subway used to have this promotion, that you would go in and say, add avocado to any sub for a dollar. And I really had to bite hard to suppress the urge to say, please add avocado to that man in front of me sub. It's a kind of self-destructive, anarchic impulse and I don't know whether that just means that's playfulness or more of an outlet for my ID.

Trudi Boatwright:

I would say that's playful. I think there's gotta be a little bit of cheekiness in there, doesn't there, there's a little bit of rebellion that comes with some of this stuff. I love walking into a lift and not turning around. standing there and facing everyone, everyone freaks out. Nobody knows what to do. It's really fun. And you just stand there and people are just like, I dunno what to do.

Danu Poyner:

That throwing people off their script, is that sense of script lessness is a really interesting moment of social tension and things can go very badly in those moments, but also people can laugh instead. of they, They decide how they wanna deal with the scriptedness. Do you find that?

Trudi Boatwright:

Yes. And that is what I really love, is that actually it awakens in somebody, this feeling. And it's a feeling that they haven't had in so long. And that is my most favorite part of the work that I do, is unlocking this feeling of, woo, being in a new space that feels slightly out of your comfort zone and fun and exciting and possible. There's possibility in that space and there's belief in yourself in that space. I love seeing people just let go and just be them, because that's when the real gold comes out of people. That's when all the beautiful stuff comes out, when you just stop censoring yourself.

Danu Poyner:

Well then I have to ask you, given how much experience you've had in both the arts world and the corporate world, which of those cultures would you say takes itself the most seriously?

Trudi Boatwright:

Oh, I love this question. Cuz it's really juicy. I would say they take themselves seriously in different ways. Um,

Danu Poyner:

Oh, that's a safe, so

Trudi Boatwright:

isn't it safe? Alright, push me, I'll go there. Um, the business world takes itself far more seriously. But do you know why? Because, it has to. It has to because there's a lot more riding and there's a lot more hierarchy. The interesting thing about the arts is often your currency is passion, that changes the dynamics and the power dynamics. I feel like the business world is missing a golden nugget by not dipping into the arts world. They're apples and pears. And I look at all of the leadership tools, the workshops, the models, and I feel like there is so much that can be learnt by leaders in the business world by looking at the process that happens in a rehearsal room. There's just, something missing in between that I think the arts world has a handle on that the business world doesn't. But then again, the business world can often eat healthy meals and the arts world are still shopping in that reduced aisle, reduced section.

Danu Poyner:

So what do you think they could learn from each other, these worlds? And is there a playful way to do that?

Trudi Boatwright:

That's what I'm trying, I'm trying, There are people that I work with, a couple of wonderful men who are putting the knowledge that they've learned in a rehearsal room into leadership development. I have always threatened, and I will do it, create a podcast with my partner who also has an acting background to release some of those secrets. Because once again, you don't see what happens in a rehearsal room. And it's about pulling apart the way people interact and behave with each other and really examining that, which is what leaders are trying to do. How do we make them work together? That's what I'm trying to do with my mental health play. That's my big goal is to really try and allow the business world to see the value in getting more arts practices involved and arts to know that the business world has a lot to offer too.

Danu Poyner:

I think that's a very worthy goal and a very achievable one given where you're at and what you can bring. I'm very personally excited about that because it's something I believe in also. I'm wondering if that's replaced the whale and the harpoon. Is that the thing you're getting in between these days?

Trudi Boatwright:

That's the thing I'm getting in between. I think I have worked out a way to combine my arts and humanities, I think that is through developing arts practices that can be used beyond theater, and in the world of business to really help people, to really make a difference to people and organizations and people in the arts world. Yeah, that's my new whale.

Danu Poyner:

I really get the palpable sense that you're like, I'm just getting started. Hold my beer. Watch me, I'm coming to do this.

Trudi Boatwright:

Well, yes. It's a busy time, but a wonderful one.

Danu Poyner:

So, we're both Australians, so we've already done a fair bit of swearing, but I wanted to ask you about bullshit and specifically, is play ever bullshit.

Trudi Boatwright:

yes, yes.

Danu Poyner:

All right. Tell me

Trudi Boatwright:

All I need to say to you is the words, we are going to have an icebreaker.

Danu Poyner:

Oh, fuck

Trudi Boatwright:

Yes, it can very much be bullshit. Yeah.

Danu Poyner:

Someone sent me this article the other day. It was an article about moral injury, there's a nice quote in that article from someone who says, if I have to listen to another eat well, sleep well, do yoga conversation I'm going to throw up. And so I just wonder if there's something quixotic about making corporate life more playful in this way.

Trudi Boatwright:

Look, I think there can be, I think the other thing that happens in the corporate world is everybody jumps on the latest, whatever it is, and everybody runs at it like a bull at a gate. And we are doing this, we're doing this. I think there is a danger of that. But I was thinking about this very carefully in the sense of, and this may be where you are going, is by giving play that sort of fashionable edge, does it ruin it?

Danu Poyner:

Yeah. Basically.

Trudi Boatwright:

Uh, yes, if if done the wrong way. But if you can get people into a playful state, if you can get people really engaged in that sense of play where people are being playful, you cannot be focusing on the reason why you are being playful. If you are truly being playful. Because what happens is you become into the moment.

Danu Poyner:

I agree with that, but I wonder if it is counter to the point you made at the beginning about the difference between playing and playfulness as one being intentional and purposeful and to solve a problem, and one just being in the moment. If I heard you right then you said that if you are being playful, then you are disappearing into that moment and not aware that you are. So does that collapse that distinction?

Trudi Boatwright:

No, I don't think it does because the mastermind behind it here, haha, will know the purpose. We used a stuck in the mud example, right? I won't say to you, we're gonna play a game of stuck in the mud, because what will happen is you will notice that you immediately respond out of habit and it will make you think about, I don't give you that beforehand. I just say we're gonna play stuck in the mud. So the act is playing, but the purpose is playful, right? So I know the purpose behind it, but you don't know the purpose until after you've had the experience. This is the gold of the experiential learning cycle, you have the experience first, then you reflect on it. You think through it, you make your critical analysis of it to take action on it again. It is most effective when it has that tool, that actual circle. So if I tell you beforehand that this is why we're going to be playing, it takes away the playing.

Danu Poyner:

That's good. It's a very reassuring answer and it keeps play safe in a pre verbal, pre-social state. I think I like that very much. Thank you for engaging me with the question, I guess we should give people an opportunity who are enjoying this conversation and keen to reach out to you some advice about the best way to find out more about you and your work. What's the best way to get in touch with you?

Trudi Boatwright:

Yes, and I would encourage anybody who is questioning how they can do things differently with their team or organization, even if they want to just have a discussion with me about the possibilities. As I say, usually I work around innovation and connection, and communication. And of course my speaking, if you do want that post lunch energy, I do practice, it's not all off the cuff. But you can contact me on LinkedIn. Alternatively, I have a website. All the links will be there. So, contact me by email, contact me through LinkedIn. You can follow my newsletter. I do try and do a different vein of newsletter every month, which keeps me on my toes as well. And I would love to just talk to people. I'm really, really passionate about helping people find their playful selves within their organizations as well as themselves. So

Danu Poyner:

Yeah. Thank you. I hope people will. I think it's a great benefit for anyone who wants to liven up what they're doing and embrace the possibilities.

Trudi Boatwright:

Also watch this space. You talked about the arts, as I say the play is in development. We haven't had a chance to talk about it, but it's a really lovely way of smashing open mental health conversations and my theater company is having a revamp at the moment. So there's more happening in that arts and business space as well.

Danu Poyner:

One of my last few questions is asking people what kind of thing they're focusing on at the moment, or what future they're stretching towards. I feel like I have that answer with the mental health direction. And I'm really, really interested to see where that gets to.

Trudi Boatwright:

Hmm. It's been in development for almost three years and every time we put it in front of someone new, they say, wow, this is a really safe way to talk about mental health. Because that's one of our huge challenges of today is the struggles around mental health and how do we have those conversations safely? And by using actors, we can do that.

Danu Poyner:

I wanted to commend you on your insistence on putting yourself out of your comfort zone and being brave and forcing yourself to do something new every time. There's a lot of discipline involved in that when you don't have to do that. No one's making you do that, but I think that gives it life and vitality and urgency. Having spent some time reading your stuff and watching your stuff, that more than anything else is, I think what I'm attributing that to is that willingness to be out front of that and then lead from the front and call everyone along behind you and say, look, this is the way this is great.

Trudi Boatwright:

Thank you so much. That's a really, really lovely thing to say. It's something I truly cherish, even though it's hard. So, thank you. It's lovely to hear that that's acknowledged and appreciated.

Danu Poyner:

I have one more question, which is, if you could gift someone a life-changing learning experience, what would it be and why?

Trudi Boatwright:

I have heard you ask this question and I have thought about it a lot. The answer may surprise you. I would gift someone the experience of being pregnant, because I'm a great believer in the mind body connection and how they talk to each other. There's a saying in comedy or comedy performance. We have a major and a minor. Same in piano and music. You have a major and a minor. And all the time in our lives, our head plays our major, our head makes our decisions. It says to our body, you will go exercise now. You don't care if you don't like it, you are going. Our body plays our minor and holds all this information that the brain just doesn't listen to. When you become pregnant, that flips for the first time in your life and your body says things like, you will sleep now. You will do this now. You will eat this now, I've been vegetarian for 20 years. I suddenly had to eat lamb sausages for a week cos my body just said, you will eat lamb sausages. And it was just this incredible journey of seeing how powerful our body is when it is given permission to step forward. So I would like to gift that to everybody so that you can unlock the potential of your body as a communicator and as a learning bunch of cells.

Danu Poyner:

I really like that answer. Thank you so much. I'm very gratified you've put so much thought into it.

Trudi Boatwright:

I've really enjoyed the question. It's given me hours of thought. Thank you.

Danu Poyner:

It's been an immense pleasure talking to you, Trudi. I've really been looking forward to it. It's delivered beyond my wildest dreams.

Trudi Boatwright:

This has been an absolute pleasure and a wonder, I was so excited to sit down and talk with you today because it made me feel like I made sense. And if that's what the grokkist movement is about, I'm 100% there. So thank you.

Danu Poyner:

That's one of those quotes that can go on the website. That is absolutely what it's about. It means a lot to me to hear you put it that way. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Good luck with all of the things that you're doing. It sounds very exciting and we'll be watching closely and everyone can check out all of the amazing links in the show notes.

Trudi Boatwright:

Thank you so much.

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