“I was so undecided”: navigating personal fulfilment and professional purpose - Christopher Schoenwald | S4E2

Christopher hosts and produces the internationally-awarded "Life as A.." podcast, helping people find professional career ideas and business pathways by exploring jobs from around the world. We discuss the interplay between career and identity and the pursuit of purpose-driven work.

Christopher's story in brief

• Christopher didn’t have a Plan A. He was a high-achiever who had the grades, but not the roadmap for his future.
• Studying sociology without a clear direction, he simultaneously worked in Canadian Customs and Immigration, where he gained an early appreciation for how our jobs can shape who we are and how we see the world.
• His quest for clarity led him to Japan to teach English, a temporary plan that turned into 20-plus-year adventure including teaching, consulting, and co-founding a marketing company in Tokyo.
• It wasn’t just a career shift; it was a life transformation. Christopher realised his professional purpose was deeply tied to entrepreneurship, creativity, and a desire for variety and novelty in his work.
• Christopher’s podcast, "Life as A..," is his way of shining a light on the myriad of career paths out there. It's about giving people a real taste of the options they have, helping them find their own spark in the professional world.

Conversation Themes

• Navigating career uncertainty
• Curiosity, exploration, and enthusiasm as career catalysts
• The interplay of career and identity
• What it means to find purpose and fulfilment

Links and Resources

• Life As A.. Podcast
• Ikigai

Full Show Notes
Visit the Grokkist podcast hub for a full digest of this episode including highlights and links to stuff we discussed: https://grokk.ist/stillcuriouspodcast/s4e2-christopher-schoenwald

Recorded 23 October 2023

Website: grokk.ist/stillcuriouspodcast | Email: podcast@grokk.ist | Socials: @grokkist
Music: Kleptotonic Swing by Tri-Tachyon

Transcript

Christopher Schoenwald: 0:00

That's what purpose is to me, I think this sense of purpose you're intrinsically motiv ated to do and also involves elements of curiosity, a willingness to learn, not. being told, you have to study this, you need this knowledge. Like you want to explore it. You, you really just wanna know as much as you can about it. A general sense of enthusiasm towards what you're doing. When you have those moments of struggle, if you have this purpose within your life, it gives you that extra little something to dig down a little bit further and to find your way out of these problems that are being presented to you. that's a good way of knowing if you have this purpose within your life. And I think the opposite is true, I mean, if you don't have that natural inclination towards learning more about what you're involved in or you're not intrinsically motivated by it all. Maybe that's a sign, we all have days where it feels like, oh no, this isn't right. But if this is like every single day for six months for a year or something, that might be a sign for you.

Danu Poyner: 1:00

You're listening to the still curious podcast with me, Daniel pointer, the show where I meet people who insist on relating to the world with curiosity and care and talk to them about the red thread that runs through their life story. And which ultimately empowers them to flourish as their unrepeatable selves. The voice. He just heard belongs to my guest today. Christopher Sean Wald, host and producer of the life as a podcast. And internationally awarded podcast intently focused on helping youth and mid career professionals. Find professional career ideas. And all business pathways by exploring and on earthing, the details of jobs from around the world. Christopher's guests include MIT professors, world food program officers, skydivers, venture capitalists, famed musicians, eco minded entrepreneurs, and Netflix reality stars. All of whom have plenty to offer to those looking for occupational knowledge, insights, and advice for those presently engaged in trying to find career planning. Clarity and inspiration. I've been listening to Christopher's life as a podcast for a while now. And one of the things I like about it is how he focuses not on the career itself, but rather the relationship that someone has to their career. You get to understand the shape of a career through the people in it. And you also get to understand the shape of a person by the way, they relate to their chosen profession. Christopher is a thoughtful and curious interviewer. Who's interested in the way work, shapes our lives and what it means to find purpose direction and personal fulfillment through professional activity. And like many people, both of us speak to Christopher's own professional direction was not something he started off with in any clear sense. But rather something he has grown into.

Christopher Schoenwald: 2:51

I didn't have a plan A was a good student. I was motivated. I, I did my work. got great, good grades. I was valedictorian in my, my graduating class. I think for, for others they would say like, oh, you're destined for success, or whatever you do is gonna turn to gold. But in my mind, at that time, I just did not know what I wanted. I really didn't. And it was driving me nuts. I Friends or, or classmates, they knew, or at least, seemingly they knew what they wanted to do. I just didn't have that. I was so undecided and there was so much angst and frustration and a whole myriad of emotions that were just swirling around constantly.

Danu Poyner: 3:26

After mulling over his options. Christopher decided to pursue a degree in sociology, hoping that a career direction would leap out at him along the way. It didn't. Meanwhile though he worked for Canadian customs and immigration during his studies. Stamping passports, interviewing arrivals and even dabbling with some aspects of law enforcement. This was the way Christopher first gained an appreciation for the way work can shape a person's worldview. If the work you do is repetitive. After a while, you can lose your spark. And if you're only about having certain kinds of interactions with certain kinds of people, well, that can lead you to be less open-minded quicker to judge and harder to budge. This wasn't the kind of future Christopher saw for himself. So instead, still seeking clarity and also looking to pay off his student loans. He moved to Japan to teach English. It was supposed to be for a year, but over 20 years later, he's still there. He started a business in Japan, focused on teaching English and consulting, helping companies and individuals improve their global skills. Later he moved to Tokyo and co-founded a marketing and advertising company called brand point. And this venture allowed him to explore on a larger scale in a global city. Further developing his interest in nonlinear thought and innovation. Through these experiences, Christopher had realized that his professional purpose was tied to entrepreneurship, creativity, and a desire for inherent variety and novelty in his work. You can really hear how important all of this is when he talks about why he likes doing his podcast.

Christopher Schoenwald: 5:07

It's endless Exploration is what it is for me. I'm tapping into worlds that I would never get to know, get to understand, and I remember when I was considering what I wanted. At that point, I knew I was driven by this notion of curiosity. I wanted a neat opportunity to explore these worlds while still. You know, never really leaving leaving my home, right? Like I'm stepping into their world. If I can construct it in such a way and ask the right kind of questions, I can be immersing myself into their world, even just for an hour for 45 minutes. And how exhilarating would that be? And

Danu Poyner: 5:41

Through his podcast, Christopher hopes to contribute to a broader understanding of various professions. There are more career options than ever, but how many opportunities do people really have to know what those options are and what they involve from the people who are involved in them? He's now over 100 episodes in and aiming to expand the reach of his podcast by collaborating with educators to guide and influence young people in their career choices. So, how does he describe his profession today?

Christopher Schoenwald: 6:13

In the simplest terms, I'm just like a host, right? I a host of this program or like, but like if you're, I was gonna dig into a little bit further maybe, a guide of sorts, a career sherpa if I really want to be creative here.

Danu Poyner: 6:25

I really liked the Korea ship, that metaphor because one Christopher is traversing the same terrain over and over again with his guests. Each journey across that same terrain is different and special. Because of the unique relationship and characteristics of the person and the profession he is taking the journey with. We will find out more about Christopher's journey and what he's learned along the way about personal and professional fulfillment. On the other side of the music on today's episode of the still curious podcast. Hi, Christopher. Welcome to the podcast. How are you?

Christopher Schoenwald: 7:25

Yeah. Excellent. Yeah, thanks for having me on. Really excited for this.

Danu Poyner: 7:28

So let's get into it. in your words, you host and produce'Life as a...', an internationally awarded podcast intently focused on helping youth and mid-career professionals find professional career ideas and or business pathways by exploring and unearthing the details of jobs from around the world. And some of your episodes have featured an M I T Professor, world Food Program Officer, skydiver, Venture Capitalist, famed musician, eco minded entrepreneur, or a Netflix reality star, all of whom have plenty to offer to those looking for occupational knowledge, insights, and advice for those presently engaged in trying to find career planning, clarity, and inspiration. So that's a lot. what would you say is the most important thing for someone to understand about'life as a...'

Christopher Schoenwald: 8:19

Yeah, great question. I really like that. I think it's, it's a resource really for people that maybe have some angst or uncertainty about what they want, what they wanna do, getting back to that word of purpose, what they're looking for within their life. And I think, part of what this program represents to me isn't just the career aspect of it. You're learning about different jobs, the roles, the responsibilities, the nuts and bolts of what people do, what they're devoting their lives towards. But also too, there's this whole life and living element that's attached to it. You know, so what does it mean to be a veterinarian? What does it mean to be a social engineer? Like, what kind of impact does that have on somebody's life? When you take on these responsibilities of the job itself, your world changes and ultimately your world views are gonna shift around a little bit, just based on the people that you're consistently interacting with, the types of things that you're involved with, the types of information that you're keyed in on. All of this has spillover effects into the personal side of things. So I think having a good handle on both the job duties themselves, as well as what some of these other elements consist of is critical.

Danu Poyner: 9:28

One of the things I like about your show is how it focuses not on the career itself, but rather the relationship that someone has to their career. You get to understand the shape of a career by the way it gets lived out by someone. And you also get to understand the shape of a person, by the way, they live out their work. I'm Just wondering how much you gave thought to all of that when coming up with the show.

Christopher Schoenwald: 9:51

That was definitely part of the reason for creating it in the first place, I really wanted to include that element into it all. Almost always, I'm trying to build in at least a question or two that relates back to the person's world, you know, related to their work, you know, what kind of impact it's had on their life. How it's shifted their views on certain things, how they feel about profession, how they feel about themselves and their place within their profession. I, wanted to find out from people, what kind of impact these jobs had. It's been a couple years, almost a couple years, nearly a hundred episodes. And I can tell you, these things do match up as far as the impact that the career has on the person and the things I was just speaking of, the rub off oftell things do match up as far as world, how their worldview shift and change because of the work that they do.

Danu Poyner: 10:43

It might be useful for people who aren't familiar with your show. If you want to take a moment to just step through how the different sections work and, and what you do cover in the course of a typical interview.

Christopher Schoenwald: 10:53

Sure. Yeah. Off the top I'm introducing the guests, their professional history. oftentimes this is information that they're supplying over, across to me. You know, the prthese thingsonal bios, it might be on a website, it might be a conference bio, and it kind of lightly introduces some of their experiences, what done in their career, some of their educational backgrounds of the highlights. And then I have this segment, called Coloring Wikipedia, and it's a segment that I take either the title of their career or something related to their career, like the topic or the area of study or whatever it might be. And I just take this dry definition from Wikipedia and I read it off for them, And I invite them to comment on it, how accurate this definition is, what's missing, what could be added, or what elements of that definition are spot on. And I let the guests kind of take it from there. It also recognizes the fact that each individual is gonna put their own individual stamp on the work that they do as well. And then from there, I get into a day in the life where we break down what that person's doing, what takes their time, you know, what types of responsibilities they have on a daily basis, weekly, monthly. And then from there I transition into a q and a discovery. Now, once we get through those, I do transition into this water cooler story segment, and it's an opportunity for the guest to share a story, and this is also driving at the point of how it's impacted that person's life.

Danu Poyner: 12:17

Yeah.. Oh, I'm curious to, to learn more about your sense of professional purpose and your motivation and ambition. But did Young Christopher have a plan A?

Christopher Schoenwald: 12:28

Yeah, nice question. No, I think that was the big problem for me is, coming out of high school, I, was a good student. I was motivated. I, I did my work. I got great, well, very good grades. I was valedictorian in my, my graduating class. I think for, for others they would say like, oh, you're destined for success, or whatever you do is gonna turn to gold. But in my mind, at that time, I just did not know what I wanted. I really didn't. And it was driving me nuts. Friends or, or classmates, they knew, or at least, seemingly they knew what they wanted to do. You know, this is what their, their, their goal was. This is the ki kind of career that they were after. And for me, I just didn't have that. I was so undecided and there was so much angst and frustration and a whole myriad of emotions that were just swirling around constantly. So, no, I I didn't have an idea and I was remember thinking of like, well, maybe this or maybe that, and I would consider these different careers and, and, and trying to decide, you know, an area of study for university was a nightmare. I thought for a little while, maybe in natural sciences and and then ultimately landed on, you know, sociology as because of the, the broad nature of what that study offered now is hoping, hoping, hoping, hoping that I would find something within there, you know, maybe there was some course, maybe it was a criminology course or maybe it was something, you know, social welfare issues. Maybe it was academia itself. Maybe something that was going to really like, just catch me within that degree. But yeah, I, I didn't have a plan A and as you've kind of probably gathered at this point, our like graduating. I still didn't have that plan A, so yeah, that, that, that was a big, it was a big portion of my life that was just not clicking in the way that I'd envisioned or wanted it to.

Danu Poyner: 14:13

It's interesting to be in that situation of being very aware that you're kind of gonna be okay on some basic level no matter what you do, and there's an overwhelming array of options. And you're quite motivated that you want to do something, but, but, but, but what and why? Uh, and so you try some stuff. The first time I heard you say purpose with regards to your squiggly journey was when you were in Tokyo doing the, the advertising with this is Brand Point as am I right? That's right. So what was it about that experience, where a sense of purpose emerged for you?

Christopher Schoenwald: 14:49

I think at that point, again, entrepreneurship was this world that I'd been within earlier with the first company that I'd started. And I was getting, you know, some elements of what that was like, but it was such a different experience. I was down in western Japan for that first company and primarily based around language. And, and it was, it was very limited. I mean, in terms of like networking possibilities and whatnot, that world felt a lot smaller. But once I moved up to Tokyo, I mean, it's one of the global cities of the world, right? And there's so much action, there's so many things going on, there's so much possibility there. And it felt like the world just opened up in terms of what I could really explore, again within the world of entrepreneurship, you know, as far as maybe even support networks there or learning from others. That was a big portion of it. But then also too, as we had this company, brand point advertising. It was this marketing and production house. We would work with advertising agencies, brands directly and just trying to like source new ideas for them. Oftentimes from overseas, we'd secure patents for some of these marketing technologies. You know, whether it be a new three D billboard or or something of that nature. Something wacky, something crazy. But what I really liked about it was the creativity and doing something new and, and introducing ideas that people had never seen. You know, like I remember there was one technology that was like an Was it e e g, electroencephalograph, and it was like basically this device that you would be wearing on, on your head, and it was measuring your e e g, your, your brainwaves, and you could control like software based off of that. It was just these wild and wacky conversations that you'd be having. But I think it pulled me in just because they were so novel. They were just so different. and that was something that I was starting to really key in on for myself. That journey was, you know, like, like, like all of our journeys I suppose. And what we're doing, we're, we're learning not only about the profession that we're involved in, but we're also learning about ourselves and what drives us and what we like, what we don't like. And I was still very much on that journey. Like Maybe the marketing advertising was the vehicle for some of those, you know, values, I suppose.

Danu Poyner: 16:56

it sounded like that setting allowed you to see how all of those different orientations to the world, curiosity, creativity, variety, which is not a word you said, but it's a word I'm I'm hearing. Uh could come together in a way that is meaningful to you, but also meaningful to others.

Christopher Schoenwald: 17:19

Yeah, that was the word I was looking for. I just, yeah. It wasn't coming, but that's exactly it. Variety, yeah. Variety and the work that I was involved in, there's so many different situations that you're putting yourself in or being thrown into that. Yeah, they, they were engaging and mundane wasn't a word that was within my world at that point at all, which was a great thing. And I was picking up on that. I was really realizing that that was something that I was drawn towards, was not having that at all.

Danu Poyner: 17:45

I think I wanna ask you just about professional purpose and just come back to that because it's so central to the conversation we're having. You pitch'life as a...' to parents, educators, and career guidance professionals as a program that might be the spark, which helps someone find their professional purpose. Given that we understand your story a little bit better, how do you think about your own professional purpose? How would you describe it? And also what is a professional purpose? How do you know when when you've found one?

Christopher Schoenwald: 18:14

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in terms of just professional purpose, I think the way I like to, to look at it here is just having that direction within life, you know? And obviously that ties into to the work that you're doing. The amount of hours that we're devoting to our careers, like depending on the research that you're looking at, it's anywhere between well, 10 years to 13 years roughly. That's a lot of time obviously to be devoting to something, to one thing, comparatively speaking, I mean, the amount of time that we devote to family and friends, I think the research I'd seen was like 369 days total in our lives across our lifetime. So obviously, like the amount that we're putting into our careers, you know, you wanna get that right or you wanna you wanna be doing something that is meaningful to you. even if you're jumping around a little bit, you know, even five, six careers perhaps, that's still a lot of time. You're, you're looking at maybe three, four years if you're switching careers. So having that reason for being, and there's a term here, I mean, we see it all the time in the corporate world, you, you see it bandied about, but Ikigai right, the reason for being right?

Danu Poyner: 19:19

Yeah. I wanted to ask you about Ikigai because it's one of those terms you do see bandied around a bit, and I'm not sure whether it's tethered to its cultural roots or not, or whether it's become one of those, corporate things. You, you seem like a good person to ask, having been in

Christopher Schoenwald: 19:35

Japan. Well, I mean, having it originated out of Japan and, and seeing it within the culture here, I believe it is something that's real, at least within this culture. It involves having this sense of purpose in terms of what you're intrinsically motiv ated to do and also involves elements of curiosity, a willingness to learn, not. being told, you have to study this, you need this knowledge. Like you want to explore it. You, you really just wanna know as much as you can about it. You know, just a general sense of enthusiasm towards what you're doing. We have moments of struggle. But when you have those moments of struggle, if you have this purpose within your life, it gives you that extra little something to dig down a little bit further and to find your way out of these problems that are being presented to you. that's a good way of knowing if you have this purpose within your life. And I think the opposite is true, I mean, if you don't have that natural inclination towards learning more about what you're involved in or you're not intrinsically motivated by it all. Maybe that's a sign, we all have days where it feels like, oh no, this isn't right. But if this is like every single day for six months for a year or something, that might be a sign for you. That's what purpose is to me, I think, the professional purpose, I suppose. The bleed over from the professional into the personal as well. Your levels of fulfillment that are being derived from the work itself itself and how that's affecting you, like your outlook on life and everything else and the world around you. And generally I'd say like if you're feeling mostly mostly good about things, there's probably a good chance that that's tied into the work that you're doing, right? And the opposite is true. I mean, if you're not feeling so satisfied with life in general, Again, based off of those stats, the amount of time that you're devoting to work, there's probably a big rub off, from that realm coming into play here. I like this idea of hopefully providing this resource that's going to get somebody closer to finding that, you know, that's a really powerful thought. I'm not naive enough to think that everyone who listens to this program is going to find it, but maybe they listen to somebody within a particular industry and it sparks an idea. Maybe it's not a profession that I've covered just yet, but it inspires somebody to dig further. Like, whoa, this area is something that I'm interested in. And then they go out and they find a little bit more information about the industry itself and then some of the different options in that industry, and it sets'em on a path and maybe they discover it or maybe they are fortunate enough where they are listening to an episode and there is this one profession that just catches'em. There's a story there. There's something that's shared that absolutely inspires them, and they dig into it and they go all the way, and who knows, maybe they end up doing this for the next 20, 30 years. that thought is absolutely exhilarating. Again, it traces back to this life and living thing, like what kind of impact does that have on somebody's life? And, and having that purpose and having that mission and feeling good about it. These are things that I wanted within my own life and I, I know the other side of it of not having that. Creating that opportunity or at least getting somebody closer to maybe finding that, I love it. I just absolutely love that thought. So that's kind of my purpose or what has been my purpose in starting this show?

Danu Poyner: 22:48

it's very palpable, the sense of enjoyment and meaningfulness for you in the work that you're doing. And the service that it does as a body of work overall is very impressive. I found the entrepreneur ones very inspiring and relatable and, and resonant. But I also really enjoyed academic people that you talk to.'cause that's a world I've spent a lot of time around and I've been now consciously stepping away from. But it kind of refreshed my respect and admiration for that profession, by listening to some of the people talk about the meaningfulness of it for them. So I do want to linger more on the bleed over, as you put it, between the professional and the personal, both in terms of how you construct the show and also in yourself. There's a, a saying that someone said to me once that I haven't been able to get out of my mind since, which is a profession ends on the day that you retire, but a practice ends on the day you die. That's really interesting to me because it raises the question of whether the meaningfulness and the purpose is located in the profession and it's something you are drawn to and you find in the work or whether any work will draw out the intrinsic purpose and direction that you have. I wonder if you have a perspective on that.

Christopher Schoenwald: 24:08

Ooh, that's a, that's a deep question there, Danu Yeah. You got me thinking here. The purpose for being and who they are, it definitely connects up to the work that they're involved in and I think like the elements of what pull them into that professional world, maybe again, we're, we're going towards these notions of curiosity and wanting to learn more about the world, wanting to learn more about everything around them. Those are elements that tie in to any profession really. Like, you're, you're always growing. Within anything that you're doing, the moment you stop, you know, that's when things die. That's when things fade out, and that's when careers probably fade out. But I don't know, like, I mean, I've spoken to so many different types of people on this program, and I get the sneaky suspicion that a lot of these people, if they were allowed to, if their company's allowed, if, if they're not entrepreneurs themselves and they're professionally working for someone else, like they would continue on for as long as they could. Really, like I just had this guest on not too long ago. She's a, a sake professional, and she discovered this career basically by her intense interest for this product. She just was driven to learn more and more about it. And eventually a career amounted out of this interest. But when she reaches that point in her life where maybe the professional world, she doesn't need to be doing it anymore, she's reaching that point of re retiring. Like, maybe by then, who knows? Erin just might have changed. But like the way she spoke to me about like that intense curiosity towards that world and towards the learning and, and, and everything that's involved in it, I cannot imagine somebody like her just hanging things up and just stopping. And then there's been so many other types of guests as well. Again, maybe stepping into the world of entrepreneurship who are passionate about a particular idea or they have this mission in life that I can't imagine is just going to stop when they reach this point of like, well, this is the age that which society says that I need to stop doing this. You know, I've reached 66 5, whatever it is. Okay, I'm just gonna give up on all of this. I, I, I just can't see that happening. Their professional world becomes who they are as a person. To just stop that would be for them to stop being who they are, you know, fundamentally speaking.

Danu Poyner: 26:19

what is the name that you give to your profession these days?

Christopher Schoenwald: 26:24

Hmm. I mean, in the simplest terms, I'm just like a host, right? I a host of this program or like, but like if you're, I was gonna dig into a little bit further maybe, a guide of sorts, a career sherpa if I really want to be creative here.

Danu Poyner: 26:36

Career Sherpa. I like That a lot. But it goes to the question of, you know, what's your relationship to the work currently? this show that you do is so clearly, a labor of love for you. I can tell in, in the way that you speak about it, but also you're very careful in the promotional language. for it to put a lot of emphasis on the value that it has for different audiences, and how it can be a useful resource for them, as you say. So I'm just interested in that interplay between the value for others and the creative fulfillment that it gives you as a kind of exploration and what would happen if if for some reason you had to stop doing it and you couldn't do it anymore, what would you do?

Christopher Schoenwald: 27:18

In terms of what it offers to me. Yeah. I mean, it, it, it's endless Exploration is what it is for me. I'm tapping into worlds that I would never get to know, get to understand, and I remember when I was considering this program and considering what I wanted. At that point, I knew I was driven by this notion of curiosity. I wanted to learn more and I was trying to figure out ways of doing so, and this program was born outta the pandemic, so that maybe there's like that feeling of isolation as well. where I'm based within Western Japan, I'm not within a big city anymore. It's a town of 50,000 people. It's absolutely gorgeous. It's beautiful. But during the pandemic, we weren't locked down here, but things were not open necessarily. And I certainly wasn't traveling back to Canada, seeing friends and family there, and even the friends that I had, you know, within this region, you weren't meeting them. So I was looking for some degree of connection there. And I thought too, like, well, maybe this program and this stuff is tossing around in my mind of life as a would be a neat opportunity to explore these worlds while still. You know, never really leaving leaving my home, right? Like I'm stepping into their world. If I can construct it in such a way and ask the right kind of questions, I can be immersing myself into their world, even just for an hour for 45 minutes. And how exhilarating would that be? From a standpoint of being a little bit selfish there and, and exploring that, but then also providing this other element to other people, you're right. I mean, that was part of my thought process from the get go. And I was hoping that just maybe others might even find value in that as well. Maybe they're not looking for their next career necessarily but they wanna break from their own reality, you know, and they just wanna step into somebody else's world and hear what they're going through,'cause oftentimes there is this thread that kind of runs through the whole common human experience There's commonality no matter what you're doing professionally speaking, that we can all sort of relate on some level. So I was hoping as well that that might be a nice break for people from this crazy world that we're living wIthin.

Danu Poyner: 29:17

I'm glad you framed it that way, Christopher and as someone who also sees lots and lots of options and and potential to do different things and is burdened by the knowledge that you can't do everything in life, but you still want to. My way of solving that personally has been to do something similar and that you, you step into other people's worlds for a little bit at a time, and you get to kind of have a vicarious enjoyment and hopefully paint a, a picture that might be useful to others along the way. But I also was interested to hear the deeper theme in the work there. it's more than just the profession itself. You're inviting people to step into an imaginative space that you're facilitating where they can, uh, through seeing mirrors reflected, they can become more accurate reflections of themselves in a way.

Christopher Schoenwald: 30:07

it is a bit of a selfish endeavor though, as well, you know, like, I, I derive so much from doing it as well and hearing these people speak and. It's like front row in some of these performances in a sense, like I'm hearing these stories firsthand sometimes, you know, people share things for the very first time or maybe they told this story a million times over, but it's the first time for me, it's the first time for listeners. You've had moments where guests have been so moved by experience and they're relating that experience. the way they share that, you know, the moments of elation, the moments of triumph, the moments of difficulty or heartache, and they share some of these feelings. And how can you not be moved by that? When you're hearing this, this this powerful story that's coming across in such a way that has impacted this person's life and their, their views on life and where they're at, where they'd like to go. It's hard not to be moved by that. And I, I swear, like each and every episode I come away from after the recording, I'm, I'm just like buzzing over what was said, the story or, or this viewpoint on something that I'd never, ever considered. I feel as though my world opens up a little bit more every single time that I speak to somebody. I'll have conversations with my older daughter who's 10, going to be 11 soon, and she's approaching that age of maturity, I suppose, where she knows her, her place in the world, at least right now, and where her world could be going down the line. in the future, yes, you are gonna have to make some decisions, certainly not now, but within the next four or 5, 6, 7 years at least. Trying to figure out what, what drives you, what motivates you. And it's an absolute pleasure to be able to speak with her about some of the guests that I have in my program. I know for her and a lot of other kids at her age, like you have those standard handful of jobs, you know, you could be a doctor, you could be a nurse, you could be a police officer, a veterinarian, like those six or 7, 8, 9, 10 jobs or whatever that everyone thinks of when they're a kid, right? But I have these really interesting conversations with her where then it piques her curiosity and she'll ask me a little bit more. So it becomes something else where like, yes, we're speaking about the program and some of the guests, and I put it down to a level of course where she can understand, but then it becomes a point of connection for her and I and our relationship as a father and daughter. And, and that's special to me as well. She'll dig in and she'll research that person, that guest, a bit further. And yeah. You, you know, you're having an impact.

Danu Poyner: 32:29

Just showing people what there is and the possibilities is something that really, really sticks out to me. I'm thinking of my dad, who spent a lot of time, like his professional career was in accounting, which is not something that he wanted to do. He wanted to be like a member of the Beatles. I think he's 70 something and still deciding what he wants to be when he grows up. But, he always tells the story of how at the high school, he went to the guidance counselor and they had this literally the list of six things that you can be, and, uh, he said he liked filling in forms, so he picked accounting and then there you go. Then that's decades of of your life.

Christopher Schoenwald: 33:07

there it is. Right. I know, I know. That's, that's almost like terrifying to me, you know, in, in a way. And I don't know how much further we progressed in that area. Certainly there's different questionnaires obviously and whatnot like that, that are supposedly there to help guide students to find possible career options for them. And I think there may be a little bit more evolved now, so it does lead you to, you know, some other, Fields of study perhaps but at the same time, like how limiting are those too? I in this job market now you're having new professions popping up all the time and how up to date are some of these software programs that are being used to like generate options for students? Within the US generally the availability of career counselors for students is like one career counselor per, I think in one of the best states might be 70 some students in some of the worst states in America, one career counselor per two to 300 students. How many opportunities do people have to really speak with a professional about these different options? What area to study within college or university and, and the amount of financial resources that go towards these things as well. And if you don't really give a lot of thought towards that or you're not really sure, you could be, you know, setting yourself back a little bit. that's acknowledging that a lot of us still have squiggly careers and, have trouble. Or we, we have these windy past ultimately finding what we like, but if we can kind of like iron out some of those wrinkles along the way and, and, you know, ease that burden of maybe getting a little bit closer to that target sooner, I think there's value in that. And that's, yeah, part of my mission here too.

Danu Poyner: 34:44

Now that you've done a hundred episodes, I'm curious what you have learned about life and living from doing all those interviews and what you've learned about work.

Christopher Schoenwald: 34:54

Yeah. I mean, it's still ongoing, I would say, but there's a few things, a few themes that come up. I think having variety within a career, within life is, is certainly a good thing. You know, the mundane is a danger point for a lot of people. Not for everyone, certainly, but for a lot of people. And if you're noticing that within your life, maybe that's something you, you wanna be aware of uh, if you can imagine yourself doing something over and over and over again, what kind of feeling that would generate, you know, maybe it's a good thing, maybe

Danu Poyner: 35:21

It. This is

Christopher Schoenwald: 35:22

but

Danu Poyner: 35:23

Customs in Immigration thing.

Christopher Schoenwald: 35:24

Yeah, exactly. There's several other types of work that's out there too, but like from the people I've spoken with, the amount of variety is, is a key point for them. other things as well. I mean, failure, this notion of failure along the way. Every single person I've spoken to on this program has failed. we have these images of, of certain people that Oh, surely, you know, that person was just like on this straight line up right from the get go, right when they, you know, started this, that journey. Well, the reality of it is so far from that, you know, they, they failed along the way, just as you and I have. I think maybe how they handle it, how they frame their failures is what determines how they pick themselves up and, and get on with things. How they find success later on, how they learn from it. That's always a, a theme that comes up in the program as well. I find a lot of the people that are finding success within their careers are really keyed in on just learning more about not only themselves, what, what drives them, but then also the work that they're doing. How can they continually learn about more about where that job is going, how the responsibilities are evolving within that profession, and just the, the eagerness towards all of that. I think that's a big part of having fulfillment, having mission, having this drive to succeed. I think work is part of this human experience. You know, it's funny, like we, uh, within society might have this vision of like, okay, I'm gonna work until I retire, and then my life begins. Then the fun begins, you know? Maybe I'm, I'm not getting like this completely representative look at the workforce.'cause the people that want to speak about their careers are people that are generally passionate about what they do. I acknowledge that, but at the same time, like these people, at least they are driven internally. And, and I can't imagine most of these people just turning off, you know, maybe their professional responsibilities end, but some of the elements of what made them successful within their careers are going to continue on. Maybe they're just gonna sink those feelings and emotions into something else or something similar. Or maybe they're gonna go into a nonprofit perhaps. Like I can envision a lot of the people that I've had on that are still gonna wanna contribute in some way. And I think that's a, a really big portion of, you know, this life and living experience as well. That's really important. And just a few of the themes that I've picked up on along the way.

Danu Poyner: 37:44

Yeah, you really get a sketch of a certain kind of way of being in the world listening to that. that makes me wanna ask you about the term grokkist, because that's one of the reasons that we're here. These are people who have a orientation to the world that's most deeply anchored in curiosity and care. And that eagerness, um, as a nice, nice way of putting it that you put to show up not always in that kind of straight line, success achievement in, in a material way, but just in a standards of self, uh, in, in the way that you show up and that thirst for new experience and understanding and to just drink it all in. Those are the people I call grokkists. is that a, a term that resonates with you at all?

Christopher Schoenwald: 38:30

absolutely. The way you just laid it out there, I feel like that's somebody that maybe I've come to be. Maybe I, maybe I wasn't that always. Perhaps and you know, maybe it's, it's part of a progression for, for a lot of people, but at least for me, I, I would say that that fits, reach a certain point where your own maturity, maybe when you're younger, like part of a career and what that represents is the material, you know, and like, oh, you, you need the big salary so you can get this, this, and this. And then the further you get along within your career, the further that that you age and you gain this sense of maturity of what's important, you realize that that shouldn't be the goal. That isn't the goal necessarily. Sure. It's not a terrible thing if it comes along, you know, with everything else, but it's, it's this fulfillment, and finding that drive, finding that purpose. I think it's a big part of it, of experience of life, of having this life well lived.

Danu Poyner: 39:23

That makes me want to ask, about you and your journey. You, you mentioned earlier that you were hoping you would still have the same passion for what you're doing in seven years time, so I'm curious if you've thought about that and, and what you think that the life as a and, and the ecosystem around it might look like in that amount of time. If you still do have the passion for it,

Christopher Schoenwald: 39:45

Well, I hope so. I hope so. we're fast approaching two years of, of having this program going and my vision for it from the beginning is, is changed a little bit along the way. I think in the beginning it was more of this break from reality for people to kind of step into a different world. I think at that point it was just like, just creating a podcast, you know, as simple as, as that, you know, for people. And then also too to kind of serve the needs of, of youth perhaps. It was just really broad in nature and I realized that probably at some point along the way it would narrow down, whether it was by choice or by by circumstance. I recognize the fact that not everyone is going to be as curiously minded as myself or maybe even you Danu, or, or other people like us, perhaps and I think that's what's come along is like, my listenership has been solid, you know, I'd say from start to finish, but at the same time, I don't see it like for just people who already have careers, that are just looking to step into a different world. Like I think that's such a small segment of the population that in terms of growing out this program and, you know, making a living off of it, you need a little bit more and you need, like you said, ecosystem, you need to be able, the ecosystem around it. But fortunately, one of the other ideas that I did have and I just mentioned earlier, was like, youth and, and aiming this program towards youth, high school students even to university age students as well. But, but mainly I would say high school students. My vision for it would be now that I'm approaching this point of having a, a content library, you know, basically that's what it's becoming a hundred episodes and continually adding to that is I think now that I can start approaching boards of education, school districts, those types of associations, nonprofits as well, you know, big brothers, big sisters, at least within North America. Having it as a program where educators can use it as a resource, you know, plug it into their existing system or use it as a standalone for students to go through an eight week program, 10, 12 week, whatever it might be. Or maybe it's a yearly program where they're exploring a new career and there's, there's activities tied into this that aim to elicit their feelings about where they would like to go in life, maybe to kind of like, experiment with it. And, I don't know if they have a, this certain hypothesis about what this job is all about or what it could mean for them. My vision for it is, is for it to become that something bigger, and ultimately, if it reaches that stage, well then, like it is delivering on scale at that point. When I think about what that could mean for me personally, in a selfish way, that is, like, that's a impacting a lot of people's lives in a positive way. if it reaches that, like, I, I, I couldn't be happier. that would be the ultimate thing right there. I Feel good about contributing to the world in a positive way, and having a lot of positive outcomes for a number of different people

Danu Poyner: 42:31

sure. I'd be surprised if it takes you seven years to get there. I do wish you the best with that. And, and related to it, what would you most like to be known for or known as? I guess

Christopher Schoenwald: 42:45

Well, I guess kind of connecting up to that as somebody who had a positive impact on others, that, that cared enough to, to do these types of things and somebody who is respectful of others and, and trying to serve their needs as much as possible.

Danu Poyner: 42:58

I am still thinking about the phrase career Sherpa that you said. I don't know whether that was just improvised or not, but as we've been talking, I've been thinking about it more and thinking this is, this is a great metaphor because you are traversing the same terrain over and over and over again, and there's a lot of similarity in the conversations that you have. But the meaning, uh, and the value in it is in the person that you meet and the relationship you have. And each journey across that same terrain is unique and special because of the relationship. So I, I really like it

Christopher Schoenwald: 43:31

well, may maybe I need a rebrand,

Danu Poyner: 43:34

who knows but anyway, in the moment, it sounded good to me and, uh, and I like it there's a question I ask everyone who comes on, the show, and that is, if you could gift someone a life changing learning experience, what would it be and why?

Christopher Schoenwald: 43:49

yeah, yeah. I really like this question. I think it would be a life lived abroad, at least for a year and a minimum a year's time. And I think the reasons for that, it just forces you to step out of your own world, your own worldviews, the way that you interpret the world. It just challenges your own ideas of what's right, what's wrong, you know? And I think a lot of people have been quoted as saying, I mean, a lot of the world troubles that we have right now would be solved if we just had like these programs set up where everyone could experience another culture at least once within their life, not just like buy the internet or even a conversation on the internet, but literally stepping into a different world, you know, breathing in the air of a different region of the world and all of that, what that represents, it'd be a lot easier for people to, to find a common ground. Which oftentimes is, is what troubles us the most these days, it would seem. That would be something that, again, speaking of my own experiences as of living abroad and now, my ability to look at my own culture and, and elements that I like and elements that I don't like, and, and, and challenging some of those thoughts, some of those ideas and finding bits and pieces of another culture that I find really appealing and great, and some things that I don't, but at least having these ideas that the world is so unique. It is so distinct that just slipping into one mindset or one worldview, it's, it's a dangerous thing, you know? And if you can sort of like give that opportunity to somebody to understand that there's so much more out there that that's powerful

Danu Poyner: 45:20

Definitely. Put yourself experientially in a different situation for a good amount of time, you are forced to realize that a lot of the things that you take for granted or you haven't thought about, can be different. Things can be different than you're used to them being. And that possibility raises the idea that you can change and that there are alternatives. And that if you wanna step into that sense of possibility consciously, then we don't need to be so attached to the things that we deeply hold or that we just haven't thought about. And that there's a lot of hope in that thought, I think, for me at least. I do detect that kind of theme a little bit in, in the work that you're doing, this theme of moving past the level of tribalism in our public discourse, it comes up in some of your interviews where people locked into their viewpoints and talking past each other a lot. with your show, one of the things you're doing is providing different perspectives and viewpoints. How conscious, uh, a deeper mission is that as part of your work.

Christopher Schoenwald: 46:25

I never really considered that, to be honest, until you just sort of raised that point. But I think the program itself and the way I envisioned it, and in my own personality, my own stamp on it, is I like to be respectful of each and every person that I meet and certainly every guest that I have on the program. the focus of the show isn't to be debating big ideas within the world necessarily. Like I just want to expose people to different lives, different ideas. Fortunately, you know, like the types of subject matter that come up on the show aren't deeply controversial, I would say, either. So like, you know, it doesn't prod me into a discussion or a debate either. But at the same time, like I do like the idea of letting people speak and I'm not the type of host where I I'm interjecting all the time or trying to interrupt. I like to let that person get out what they have to say. in a way, I think that sort of accomplishes what you're speaking of is, is you're giving somebody a voice, you know that they feel safe enough, that they're gonna be heard, that they can get out, they can express the way that they want to express. And I think that's a really important element. Whereas, you know, sometimes within other mediums or you know, within culture as a whole, We're so quick to jump on somebody the moment they say there's a trigger word or a trigger phrase that, you could go after. I never wanted the program to be about anything like that. It comes down to listening, right? If you can better understand who that person is, what their experiences were or all about, you might have a better handle on why they think a certain way. powerful and I think that's really meaningful as well. I I do subconsciously, I suppose, maybe build that into the program and maybe that reflects my personality as well and the way I wanna interact with people.

Danu Poyner: 48:08

that's a very good answer. I just wanted to offer as a body of work, as a content library, as you put it, that hopeful worldview is quite apparent when you step back and look at it as a whole body of work. So I just wanted to offer that thought to you.

Christopher Schoenwald: 48:23

No, thank you. Yeah, that's great to hear. You know, it's interesting to have these types of conversations because I feel I'm learning that much more about this program in speaking with you Danu and like your observations of it and what it means and how it could be interpreted, and it's been such a really valuable experience on that side of things, you know,

Danu Poyner: 48:39

Oh, thank you Christopher. Is there anything you'd like to talk about that we haven't covered today?

Christopher Schoenwald: 48:46

One thing I'd like to leave with people is that again, where, where this program is and where I'm going with it, it's still very early stages and I am right now just beginning to work with educators on building out a progrqm that is, you know, career-minded, career resource minded for students, particular high school students. And we're looking for, you know, schools themselves, pilot programs to set up an eight to 10 week program to allow students to kind of interact with the content, to have extra resources and, uh, to kind of gauge, you know, what kind of impact this could have. So, if there's any of your listeners, I'm not sure where they're coming from exactly, but if there's anyone, whoever has an interest in this, maybe they're within education or would like to learn more about maybe setting something up, I'd be all ears for that so I've got a website, like as a.com, you can find me on, uh, most of the major social platforms like Instagram or Facebook or LinkedIn.

Danu Poyner: 49:40

Yeah, thanks. very much for that. We will, of course, put all of the links to everything in the show notes and do check out the show if you haven't already. It's been a great pleasure speaking to you, uh, Christopher. I really enjoyed it. I've learned a lot about what I'm doing as well,

Christopher Schoenwald: 49:56

Well, thank you. Yeah, it's been an absolute pleasure and I really enjoy your, your podcast as well here. I think that the types of guests that you've had and the types of discussions that, that you're able to elicit really, really intriguing, really interesting. And, uh, I certainly enjoy them as well. So thank you for, for having me on. It's been an honor.