Welcome to Beyond the Message, a midweek space where we continue the conversation from Sunday sermon, unpacking context, exploring your questions, and growing as we listen, learn, and follow Jesus together.
We're gonna jump straight into it.
And in our summary of this, or in my summary of our message that you've given to us, Aiden, it was awesome.
Thank you so much.
We see that you explore Jesus' promise in John 14 that he would send the Holy Spirit, the parakletos, the one who would comfort to come alongside, to help and advocate for us.
You parallel this with several of your own stories, particularly beginning with your wife's cooking through to COVID and the journey that God took you on personally in that space.
You conclude by challenging us around the fact that we are not alone.
The Holy Spirit is always with us, in us and around us.
Ultimately, are we recognizing that the Holy Spirit is with us and how will we engage with him?
So thank you for sharing.
Is there anything you'd like to add to that to expand to that summary?
No, I think it's a great summary.
I think overall, you know, sometimes as a preacher, you have your plan, you have your sermon, but you you also have like a tone or a sense like this message is challenging or this message is provocative, or this was very much an a comforting encouragement message that that we are never alone.
So hopefully, if you sense that, then at least I I got that sort of tone across.
And that was very much Jesus' tone as he spoke to the disciples.
So uh yeah, great summary.
And uh I hear you can relate to some of my early stories there.
I definitely can.
Uh I got married at 21 and uh you know I went from living at home with my mum and dad to living with my wife, Rachel.
And yep, I had to learn fast about uh cooking and cleaning and did you have to learn though?
Or did well yeah, Rachel was like, I am not your mum.
And so I was like, okay, that's fair.
So 11 years on now, I've definitely I'm definitely better.
So do you reckon you'd be a better cook if you had flattered for 11 years or if you've been married for 11 years?
Ooh, uh I'm gonna say uh I don't want to get in trouble.
So I think uh being married for 11 years because then it's specific and yeah, yeah, true.
And like if a flatmates, you you're probably just doing beans on toast for yourself or something like that.
Where I'm sure Rachel has expanded the horizons of meals.
Yeah, we we got into that because yeah, one of my analogies at the start of the message for those who didn't listen was you know, Jesus leaves the disciples and he promises them the Holy Spirit, and very much tongue-in-cheek, I compared this to when my wife Keely uh went for 10 weeks on mercy ships and and left me with a recipe book.
So she said, You will not be alone.
I've left you this thing in my place, and that will help you.
And and it very much did, and my cooking improved a lot in that time.
But hey, we we're not here to talk about uh Christian husbands who can't cook.
We're hey, but what it does do is make sure that I, you know, teach my kids or you know, be a good model for my kids in that space.
There you go.
So and you can do that for Rio too.
Yeah, it looks out.
Uh what it does uh dovetail well into though is that you know you brought out quite a few stories in that space for yourself and how you know where the Holy Spirit has been at work and uh love to hear some more about that soon.
But it also talks a little bit to the resource that we're using as a as a church here for this series.
Uh yeah, familiar Stranger.
I started listening to this uh the other week and really enjoying it.
Tyler Staten has some great stories in there.
Yeah, do you want to unpack a little bit why we chose this book and some some more of that?
Yeah, so this uh this book uh is yeah, the Familiar Stranger.
Uh the subtitle here is Reintroducing the Holy Spirit to those in search of an experiential spirituality.
It's written by Tyler Staten.
Uh he's the pastor at Bridgetown Church in Portland, which many of you may kind of know was where John Mark Coma was the pastor, and um Tyler Staton took over from him.
Uh this book, yeah.
I I I just loved that subtitle, Reintroducing the Person of the Holy Spirit to those in search of an experiential spirituality.
I talked with Grant last time or in one of our podcasts for the series around my own work with young adults, and I felt like that they were in search of an experiential spirituality, and they did want to be either introduced or learn more or reintroduced to the person of the Holy Spirit.
The the title itself, the familiar stranger, is is kind of that idea that we're familiar with the Holy Spirit uh as a person of the Trinity or part of the Trinity, but he's also somewhat of a stranger in that we we know Jesus, we know the Father, but the Holy Spirit can sometimes be that familiar stranger, that that word that's said at church or those song lyrics.
But to actually be with the Holy Spirit or know the Holy Spirit as a person, as a friend, uh was something that was quite foreign to people.
So I like that title, and the book is really um helpful.
It's it's not an academic book, it's got loads of stories, as you said, and it kind of will talk about a gift of the spirit and it will bring a story that expresses that.
And they're not all like success stories as well, which I like.
There are, you know, the the times when you pray for healing and there is no healing.
The time where you share a word with someone and it just doesn't connect, you know, like um the the epic fails as well.
Um, so I yeah, we've we sold a few copies on on Sunday, uh, and yeah, you can get hold of it.
Now you've listening on audio?
Yes, yeah, yeah.
Listening uh on audio book, and it's actually uh I've listened to a previous book of his uh around prayer, and actually just this like familiar journey, I guess, of as he talks through prayer in that book and uses his own illustrations and stories and and now kind of experiencing that again makes it super accessible, I find, for myself in that space where I'm like, oh okay, this is like this is helpful to know, as you said, you know, the success stories and the ones that you know are a bit you know of a fail or don't quite work out the way that he hopes or expects.
And for me as someone trying to grow in my faith, or for us collectively going, this is it humanizes it, right?
It's not this person that's written this book far off that's doing it, but actually that we can also participate in that as well.
Yeah.
Um, and uh the other thing I just say about this book is that it is available on right now media as a as a life group study or individual, but there are like videos and questions that you can work through it as a group, so that you can get that for free through our website on the resources.
So uh whether you want to read it or listen to it or work through it at with your life group, we'd highly recommend it.
Yes.
Yeah, it's good.
It's good.
Uh thanks for picking that resource out for us.
It's is it's great.
Um regarding some of the stories as we're talking about in that book, but in your own journey, are there any other stories for you that really or some of the ones you might have shared that you want to unpack a little bit further or talk more about that have been impacting in this journey for you around uh you know the Holy Spirit present in your life where you're seeing him at work, or maybe some of the fail moments as it were where you've gone, ooh, didn't quite land how I hoped.
Yeah, um, good question.
Uh two two things come to mind actually, because we could do a uh a success and a fail, maybe um start with the fail.
And I I use that as a joker.
I think it's uh if you success is trying to hear from God and having the courage to share it in an appropriate way.
Great.
Uh and if it doesn't land, you learn.
Unless you're saying something that's you know clearly unhelpful to a person.
So anyway, one story that for me recently, I was uh I was on a plane trip back from Hamner's Springs retreat, which Grunt mentioned last week on the podcast.
It's a Holy Spirit retreat for Baptist pastors on a plane back from Christchurch, and I was, you know, really excited and um you know had sensed the spirit working and and there's very much people sharing prophetic words and images.
And I got chatting to this guy on on the plane, he was actually a pilot, um, but they were just moving up to Auckland, he was going to Auckland so that he could fly back down.
So he was he was on shift.
So it was super interesting because I'd not sat next to a pilot before, so I was asking him all the stuff about the plane, and and he was real chatty.
I was like, you must get this all the time, like if you don't want to talk, it's all good.
And he was like, nah nah, keen for it and stuff like that.
So we we had good chats and got onto you know the fact what I had been doing down there, and I was at a uh pastor's retreat and I worked in church and um he was just such a such a nice guy, a really warm kind of uh we use that language of person of peace, but he was really receptive and warm for the conversation.
So as we were getting like closer to landing, I was like praying, like, God, is there anything you want me to share with this this pilot, this guy?
Um and I kind of had this image in my head of like a uh empty plane.
And uh I I haven't shared this with anyone actually, uh this story.
So as an empty plane, I I thought, okay, God, if that's if that's what you want me to share with him, I'm not gonna start any more combo.
Like he's gonna come to me, you know.
So it's kind of like, okay, I'm not gonna force it, but if he chooses to re-engage, I I will say that, you know, I've had this image.
So no sooner I do that as I open my eyes and he just leans in to chat about something else, and I was like, okay, here we go.
Uh so I said, like, uh, you know, I believe God still speaks to us, uh, and that we've you know, sitting together for a reason and we just had such a great conversation, this connection.
Um, and I shared the image with him.
I said, you know, that there might be a sense where like there's some emptiness with within you, and there's an amazing life, an amazing person, but the the deeper down there there's an emptiness, and that may not resonate now, may resonate in a few years, but I feel like God wants to speak to you and um to to show you that he can feel that and he wants you to experience not just like great out outs outer story, but this inner depth and and relationship with him.
Um and he was appreciative that I kind of shared that, but it didn't seem to like immediately click.
And I obviously it's quite weird to say, you know, hey, you know, God said this, and it wasn't like a super straight up encouragement, like it there was a sense of like challenge with it, yeah, um, and vulnerability around the that, but because we'd had such good conversation, and I think he had a sense of my character and where I was coming from, it wasn't straight cold, and we continue to talk after that and move back into and I don't know where that lands from.
So that I said that as a possible fail or a possible, he might come back to that conversation later on.
But the the process of like okay, noticing that he's warm, then listening to God, is there anything that you'd have me share?
And then I tested it with like okay, I'm not gonna say anything, but if he kind of leans back in, yes, then I'm gonna do it, and then kind of stepping into it, and then the like you know, sometimes it's nice when like you share something and it immediately resonates.
Yeah, it's quite a long time.
Uh I don't know if people want to hear another story or or not.
Um, what do you have any thoughts?
I I can tell another one.
Yeah, no, that's good.
I think like the I think that's impactful, right?
Is that you know uh often I think people look and go, well, as a pastor, you know, you you'll just this will come naturally to you, this will be super easy.
But yeah, what I guess I'm hearing from you is that there is this wrestle, there is this like, oh Lord, are you gonna say something?
I'm I'm asking you and I'm I'm trying to be faithful here, and there's the potential for something to be a little bit awkward.
And but yeah, we as pastors still wrestle in that space too, right?
Like I was in an Uber the other day, and I'm quite intentional about my Uber trips, and I'm like, I always love to have conversations with the drivers because they love to chat usually, and you know, I'm similar sort of story.
This guy coming along, and I'm I'm sitting there.
I'm like, Lord, give me an image for this guy.
Lord, would you give me something to speak into his life?
And and I'm so I'm just like sitting as we're talking.
He's telling me all about how he's ordered this.
Um he's flying over to India to go pick up this toilet paper machine that makes rolls of toilet paper.
You hear the most interesting stories in Uber trips, honestly.
And so he's telling me all about this, and then he goes, Oh, so what do you do for a job?
And I'm like, Yes, classic.
This is the this is the in.
I'm like, you know, easy to you know talk about Jesus in that space.
And I'm like, hey Lord, give me a word for this guy.
Give me a word, and I'll be like, Oh, I'm a pastor.
The room just like shuts down completely, like as we're driving along, and he just he just like has this real as the without over spiritualizing the this this sense and the spirit in the room had just really shifted and it had completely changed, and it basically meant that our drive had stopped.
And I was like, oh wow after that.
I was like, Lord, did I should I have not have said that?
Should I have done something differently in that space?
Like, what what did I do wrong?
Did you not want to speak to him?
And so you kind of get left with all of these questions, right?
Much like what you're talking about.
You're going, Did that land?
Did that not land?
And so I think for us it's it is helpful to be able to know that even when we try to do these sorts of things, it doesn't always pan out the way that we hope.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So yeah, no, I appreciate that.
That's good.
And in your message, one of the things that this kind of leads me towards is actually, you know, whether it was the your guy that you had been talking to or mine, this this idea of like, I wonder if they feel a sense of conviction or uh or or do they resonate with that language of condemnation?
And and one of the questions that did come in was around that was you know, what is the difference between the two with this com conviction and and condemnation?
Yeah, it's a great question and a great link.
And that comes from the passage that we were looking at in John where Jesus is telling the disciples about the Holy Spirit and and the roles that the Holy Spirit will do, and let's say just random number, 99% of the things he talks about are within believers.
He will be your advocate, he will be your counselor, he'll be your comforter.
But then there's this section where he says uh when he comes, the spirit will convict the world of their sin.
And there's a couple of verses that unpack that.
So that's why we touched on that on Sunday, and I guess that's where the question comes from.
Difference between conviction and condemnation is in my experience, so I shared my experience of like kind of first sensing that conviction of the spirit.
I was actually like 15, I was like your classic youth group um person.
I'd heard a sermon at youth group that just like really spoke to my heart.
I said it cut through my teenage banter and bravada.
Yeah, and like um, you know, for young people, you know, sometimes you just it just lands, but the conviction that I felt wasn't shame, like it wasn't it was a awareness of my own brokenness, but it was like so equally balanced with God's love for me that uh it wasn't like I'm gonna leave you there, it's like I'm highlighting my eyes were open to my own brokenness, but I realized even more in that moment God's love for me because it's like I'm this broken and yet he still loves me.
I I've had every opportunity in a Christian home to kind of get to know him, and I've wasted it and squandered it, but yet he still loves me.
So I felt, I guess, more sinful and more loved than I'd ever felt before.
And I think that's conviction, that's like you know who you are, the truth of who you are, and in that you feel more loved.
Like I think Tim Keller said something like the truth is you're more sinful than you know, and you're more loved than you know.
Yeah.
Um that's great.
Whereas condemnation, on the other hand, condemnation would be only exposing your weaknesses, your failures, but with with kind of uh no no hope, no redemption, no, no love.
Just it's not like I've sinned, it's like I am a sinner and I will always be a sinner and there's no hope for me.
Uh and there's that shame that comes.
So yeah, I think it's conviction is great, and people are sometimes scared of conviction, but I think it you know, there's that line in scripture, your kindness leads us to repentance, conviction leads to repentance and greater intimacy.
Yes, whereas condemnation uh would kind of cause you to hide.
It would be like, Oh, these things have been exposed in my life, I better hide that from everyone, hide that from God because if he knew this, he wouldn't love me.
And that's what the devil says to us, right?
It's like, oh no, you you've done this again, you've messed up.
Um you can't take that to God.
Whereas conviction is like bringing it into the light, it's not it is painful, it's good, but it's it's a deeper knowing, like you can only be loved to the extent that you're known.
Yes.
Um, so when you allow that part of yourself to be loved, it's like a deeper experience.
So yeah.
That's my own experience of conviction and condemnation, but I I'm I'm it's a quite a common question.
How would you frame that for maybe a young person?
Yeah, and I think that's great.
I think I really uh I love some of that language that you use there, particularly when you're talking about guilt and shame.
And I I read something really interesting, is that guilt isn't actually a bad thing.
You know, this like process of guilt uh often can actually go, oh like I'm feel guilty because I know I shouldn't have done that.
I know that that was probably or you know, and that's that conviction side of things, right?
This like level of like, oh, I feel this guilt because I have now come to a realization, or I've always known is this realization that I shouldn't have done this, or but I can actually continue on and and change my decision.
Whereas the condemnation aspect is this sort of shame, and shame is never okay.
Shame, you know, to actually go and to shame somebody, to feel shame in that process, that is never what God's intention is, right?
You can't parallel a comforter and shame in the same sort of thing, you know.
So uh that's why I that's how I would probably unpack it.
Or or maybe more simply, conviction is the opportunity to recognize and to reorientate, whereas condemnation is the end of the line.
You know, it's just this like there is no progression forward from this, and it's just this like here's the line in the stand and that's it, you know.
This is God's verdict on you.
Yes, you are condemned, correct.
There's no redemption.
And so that's why I go actually here is this opportunity to you know recognise and reorientate towards him, to lean into him and to be expectant for what's next, you know, because that's what he does is he brings us through and and to bring us forward.
So yeah, that's good.
It's good.
Um one of the things that you spoke about there, which leads us nicely into our next question, is you know, you spoke of your journey of how you felt the conviction of the Lord at at a young age, and and we have young people all the time coming back, sharing testimony of the the Spirit of God at work.
We read in scripture, Jesus says, Come to me, the children, bring the children to me.
We must have a faith like that of the the young child.
And so, in light of that, how do we understand this?
Of you know, if we are to uh listen to those that are hearing from the spirit, and if we're to say that young people, children are able to hear from the spirit, how do you believe we as a church are hearing from the spirit of God through the youngest of these?
Yeah, yeah, it's uh I totally agree, and I do think that you know believers of all ages are filled with the spirit when they come to put their faith in Jesus.
So um the spirit can speak through them.
How are we as a church hearing them?
And and I think we can both talk about this.
Um young adults, pastor, youth pastor, we we have roles with younger people, depends on what people define as young.
Um so for young adults, there are a range of ways to formally be involved in this.
Uh, young adults can become members.
Uh and next week uh I'm meeting with a bunch of our young adults to talk about membership because um, you know that's Increasingly sensing that commitment to this local church and totally you're filled with the spirit, they can help us discern God's voice.
So membership is one formal way that they can do that.
Um, also this year I had a we called it like Kai and Court et al.
Um just had an opportunity to get a feedback from from the young adults on where we are at as a community, on you know what God is saying to them, where they want to see growth, where they're sensing, you know, God moments or wins in young adults.
So I guess it's my job as a pastor to kind of listen and draw out their voices, yes, and and then also to kind of integrate that into our wider church.
So you know, part of doing this series is um, as I've mentioned a number of times, has come through from my experiences of of of listening to young adults and sensing there was a curiosity around the spirit.
So that's actually a good example of kind of how things feed through.
Uh I see my role as kind of sitting between the young adults and the and and the church at large and trying to draw both towards each other so that young adults feel part of the church and and are not just here to kind of take up a seat or to serve, but to to feel invested and and part of this community long term.
And I think we're seeing great progress there, which is uh wonderful.
Younger than that, um, or actually I won't go younger than that, we'll talk about youth uh and stuff in a minute.
But the the other part of it is like so as a church we need to make space to hear.
But I also would always push things back onto the young adult themselves and say, is there maturity, is there commitment to this church, is there investment?
Um because it's easy to kind of say what the church should be doing um without any of those things.
So like is there maturity?
Is there spiritual maturity?
There's in order to like share what I think the spirit is saying to our church, you need to be I need to be able to discern the spirit's voice.
I need to care enough about the community that I would listen on their behalf, that I would uh kind of have eyes big enough and a heart big enough to think what is God saying, okay, even if it's just to to our youth community, it it it requires looking beyond themselves.
So I think there's a part for the individual of like, what does it mean to like really commit and participate and be a contributor to this church body rather than a consumer?
Yeah, good.
Who's who's going, hey, we just want more upbeat worship or we want uh you know better coffee.
Uh like okay, the spirit may be telling you that, but uh I think there's more important things that spirit might be wanting to say.
Yeah, yeah.
What do you think?
Um maybe like looking a little bit younger than that.
Yes, yeah, yeah.
I think you know, we uh hear physically from you know, we heard from Miko a couple of weeks ago as she spoke, and and you know, so we as a church are opening and creating spaces like that.
We are discipling and you know, in the process asking for feedback or from our young people to go, you know, what are you sensing?
What are you seeing?
Because our hope is is that you know, it wouldn't be our youth ministry here and then the church over here, but actually that they would be one together.
And I would say the same for our kids, right?
And I so therefore that interwoven connection automatically brings a sense of how we are engaging and hearing.
And I wonder if it's all about actually our posture in that space, then of are we actually willing to observe, learn, and listen from our you know, younger members of our church that are engaged in this space.
And one of the things that as I'm thinking about that, I go, actually, even after church on a Sunday or as my connect group meets together on a a weekend or whenever it might be, just observing and watching the children play together, knowing that they are made in the image of God, that they too are filled with the spirit, watching the way that they care for one another, the way that they interact.
And, you know, when someone falls over and there are tears and others gather around, and and I I go there in my mind is actually an image of the spirit at work speaking and comes back to me going, Do I have this perspective to be willing to learn, to listen, and to hear what the spirit might actually be speaking through the actions of my three-year-old as she is wandering the playground and embracing those that are around her or loving and caring for those uh equally the way that my eight-year-old leads this flock of, you know, 10 kids that love going after them, you know?
So I I in that I go, that's a way in which we can be hearing and seeing God at work or the spirit speaking, even though they might not come up to us, you know.
Isla doesn't come to me and say, Dad, the spirit of the Lord says, you know, we should vote for this person as an elder.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I think there is appropriate levels of engagement.
It's actually about as individuals and as a community, how are we taking time to observe those things?
I love that.
I love how you've taken it sort of maybe from the auditorium space or or a meeting to the playground and you know, to yeah, family, church, family life and worship in all of its forms and and how the spirit speaks to us through that.
Yeah.
Um, and yeah, and great point, Miko preached, you know, in our in our Luke series.
Yes.
Uh, totally opportunity to hear what the spirit is saying to our younger people.
Um, even this Sunday we had two intermediates read the scriptures to us, which is, you know, reading God's word to the people.
And I I know people loved having them read it, but I hope also that it's impactful for them when they kind of always remember that passage and go, Oh, I read that at the front of the church.
And you know, maybe they'll have a special relationship with the Holy Spirit because they've dwelt on those words.
So that was a cool thing to have happen.
And I think like I go back to one of the most impactful baptisms for me was actually watching Leon Mead get baptized here.
And, you know, he was sort of saying, Oh, you know, wow, I'm seeing all these young people get baptized.
I haven't done that, and so I want to go and do that.
You know, that's speaking to him.
But then I go to him and I go, Wow, uh, you know, we see so many young people getting baptized, but actually the older generation and in particular males engaging in this space less.
And so I was like, I want to encourage you how significant this actually is that you're standing in front of everybody going, This is the declaration of my faith.
And I'm like, how and there are I know that there'll be so many more people of his age and older that are sitting in that space that haven't made that decision.
And I'm like, love the way that he's heard from God through the young people in the act that they're doing, but then also going, Well, I'm gonna go put that into action myself and the flow on effect of the spirit, yeah.
So it's great.
That's a that's a great point, and it does highlight that the question was particularly around young people.
But I like that that scripture in Joel, you know, I pour out my spirit on all people, old men will have dreams or see visions.
I can't remember which way around it is, but it talks about the different generations, and yes, that is good to remember is that you know, with our roles, we we naturally are looking young, but the spirit is also speaking to people of all ages and all ethnicities and and backgrounds within our church.
And um, whoever you are listening to this, you're listening for a reason, and you to some degree connect with our ministries, uh, and the spirit is speaking to you, and you have um a unique relationship with him uh and unique giftings from him and a unique contribution to church life that you bring.
So thank you for listening.
And one way of contributing is through you know, questions and thoughts for this podcast, but there are so many others.
So uh whether you're young or older or whatever your faith background is, uh, if you have put your hope and your faith in Jesus Christ, as I said on Sunday, you are never alone.
Your whole His spirit lives within you permanently, not at church or or at life group, but as you're driving your car, as you're doing the washing or whatever you do when you listen to podcasts, uh He is with you, in you, uh, and wanting to speak with you and um be present to you, whether it's been a good day or a tough day or a great season or one of like really feeling lost, he he wants to draw you into the Father again.
Love that.
Thanks, Aiden, and really appreciate you joining us today.
That's um and that last thought there, I think, really sums up the heart of what we're trying to achieve in this space, is actually we can all engage and we can all see the spirit at work in us and around us.
And so, how do we choose to engage in that?
Really uh appreciate that.
Well, thanks for joining us today.
We're so glad that you've taken this time to be with us and just want to remind you next week we are continuing again actually with uh Aiden as he takes us further into our Holy Spirit uh season and and talking around Pentecost.
And so we are excited uh to be doing that.
Is there anything you want to preface us or give us as we head it in?
I was gonna make a joke about you getting excited as a panty, you know, for Pentecost and like yeah, yeah, yeah, excites those Pentecostal backgrounds within us.
But yeah, no, I'm looking forward to tender.
It's good, thank you.
Until then, may God continue to shape us as we listen and learn and follow.